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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer - ping | 12:42 |
|---|---|---|
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| DocScrutinizer | pong | 12:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: ^^^ | 12:46 |
| freemangordon | How do you think, is it a good idea CSSU camera-ui to support HD recording. Without breaking current functionality of course. i.e. if there is HD encoder then offer HD recording, otherwise keep it as stock. | 12:47 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer ^^^ | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, after we changed stock camera for nicocam (a move I deprecate), I don't see a problem with augmenting nicocam, except of course stability issues | 12:53 |
| freemangordon | nicocam lol . There should be no stability issues, changes are minor. TBH my patches should prevent recorded video stuttering which even stock camera-ui has. | 12:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: anyway, I'll vote against *any* change except urgent bugfixes of existing patches, until we branched to stable | 13:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | we *need* a stable branch finally | 13:03 |
| freemangordon | absolutely agree. Anyway I was talking in general, should i aim CSSU (better option) or create a fork (stupid option). And for sure I will wait for "stable" CSSU before requesting merge of the above changes. | 13:06 |
| freemangordon | BTW I do not see a reason why what is currently on gitiorious to not make it as stable | 13:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | agree | 13:07 |
| freemangordon | The question is who makes a decision | 13:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | so *who* going to "clone"(?) that to a stable branch? right now | 13:07 |
| freemangordon | :) | 13:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | I do :-P | 13:07 |
| freemangordon | well done | 13:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | clone it! | 13:08 |
| freemangordon | anyway, right now there is noone from "CSSU team" online. And I suspect we are waiting for famous PR 1.3.1 befor new update. | 13:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | more honestly - we heard any complaints / bug reports against .18? | 13:09 |
| freemangordon | yep, modest | 13:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | hmm, probably those are mostly very old? | 13:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | or were they introduced by .15-.18? | 13:10 |
| freemangordon | no, they aren't . But my latest patches seems to fix that. | 13:10 |
| freemangordon | even before that | 13:10 |
| freemangordon | they were introduced by modest upgrade, not sure to which version. | 13:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | can you point me to those bug tickets? | 13:11 |
| freemangordon | will try | 13:11 |
| freemangordon | hold on a secod | 13:12 |
| freemangordon | *second | 13:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | np | 13:12 |
| freemangordon | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11961 | 13:13 |
| povbot` | Bug 11961: Random email application (modest) crashes with CSSU | 13:13 |
| freemangordon | maybe this is the same | 13:14 |
| freemangordon | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11861 | 13:14 |
| povbot` | Bug 11861: Modest does not start | 13:14 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer ^^^ | 13:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer | hmm | 13:16 |
| freemangordon | yep. And there are some Qt and camera0ui glitches (fixed on gitorious) | 13:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | doesn't help, as we won't go stable with untested patches, ever | 13:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | modest is a PITA according to the bug reports | 13:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd actually kick modest out of cssu-stable | 13:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | there've been zero bugfixes for all I can see, just implementation of (in my book useless) rotation etc | 13:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | >>quality / stability is of paramount importance in CSSU << | 13:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | as long as a component in CSSU is *worse* than stock, we could as well forget about CSSU all together | 13:44 |
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| freemangordon | my idea was - new update (which includes all those fixes) to be in a wild for a month or so, and if there are no new bugs to go to stable. | 13:48 |
| freemangordon | and TBH this update had to be ASAP as modest and camera-ui were fixed. | 13:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway, what's the master plan? We probably should clone a stable branch *now* from .18, then feature frezze it, and try to fix the remaining mega bugs in it (like modest). I'd even suggest to not accept any patches for testing until the stable branch got ready for rollout | 13:49 |
| freemangordon | but... | 13:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and bug fixes in stable shall not be "I reimplemented tinymail core, now it will be really cool", rather kick out modest all together rather than implement "bugfixes" that are actually introducing lots of new code | 13:52 |
| freemangordon | don't ask me, I really have no idea how the things work in "CSSU team"'s heads. As i wrote above, if it was up to me, there would be .19 a month ago, with modest, Qt and camera-ui fixed. | 13:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, moh left the boat it seems | 13:53 |
| freemangordon | no need to throw modest away, everything seems to work in latest (as latest on gitorious) version | 13:53 |
| freemangordon | yep :( | 13:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | you suffered the 11961 before? you used the fixes for >4 weeks now, and it's definitely fixed? | 13:54 |
| freemangordon | I've never had this bug, but about 5 or so users reported that after using fixed version there are no more crashes. | 13:55 |
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| freemangordon | I've attached .deb package on CSSU thread. | 13:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | cool shit. Please clone to a ".19" as of your definition *now* | 13:55 |
| freemangordon | what do you mean? | 13:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | and btw, there *is no* CSSU team it seems | 13:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer | clone the recent .18 + your patches *only* to stable | 13:56 |
| freemangordon | yeah, that is why I am putting quotes ;) | 13:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | "we" are CSSU team (users of this chan) | 13:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | *active* users | 13:57 |
| freemangordon | How am I supposed to do that, I don't have access to gitorious CSSU repos, neither to CSSU repos on maemo.org. | 13:57 |
| freemangordon | cool, ain't? | 13:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I'm maybe going crazy now, I just say I'm willing to take the responsibility and flames of doing final decisions, but not any real coding work | 13:58 |
| freemangordon | I am ok with that, so my coding work won't go in vain ;) | 13:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | (final decisions and real coding never shall be same porson) | 13:59 |
| freemangordon | contact concil? | 13:59 |
| freemangordon | agree | 13:59 |
| freemangordon | that is why I asked you about camera-ui and HD | 13:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | contact council, bash moh | 13:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I'll catch jaffa and moh as soon as I can get hold of them | 14:00 |
| freemangordon | ok | 14:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I urgently suggest to augment the list of accounts to gitorius etc, and esp to maemo | 14:01 |
| freemangordon | why jaffa? because of admin rights? | 14:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 14:01 |
| freemangordon | and AIUI X-Fade is the one which holds the keys to maemo repos. | 14:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're by far the most active contributor to CSSU during last few months, and it's not acceptable you have to beg for merges | 14:02 |
| freemangordon | yep | 14:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, x-fade is admin | 14:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | alas x-fade has me on his ignore list since I called aegis satan's child | 14:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-P | 14:03 |
| freemangordon | the other one is arcean, but it seems he is not as arrogant as I am, so maybe he surrended | 14:04 |
| freemangordon | LOL | 14:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | basically I'm lacking some of the diplomatic skills for a project lead | 14:04 |
| freemangordon | me too | 14:04 |
| freemangordon | ;) | 14:04 |
| freemangordon | I will ask estel for help | 14:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | good plan, estel is a nice guy | 14:04 |
| freemangordon | yep, and IS diplomatic :D | 14:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 14:05 |
| freemangordon | BTW jaffa is online | 14:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: ping | 14:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: can you help reanimate CSSU? | 14:06 |
| freemangordon | is out of cigarettes, going to buy some, brb | 14:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | o/ | 14:07 |
| jonwil | Those things will kill ya :P | 14:07 |
| jonwil | I should know, I have family who has undergone major heart surgery as a result of smoking those evil things | 14:08 |
| * DocScrutinizer rolls the paper, licks it | 14:08 | |
| jonwil | :) | 14:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | light | 14:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | *cough* :-P | 14:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | moo jonwil, how's RE hacking today? | 14:09 |
| jonwil | If I can get some help with gconf and if I can get some people to test my widget in the real world to see that it works properly in other situations, I should have operator-name-cbs-widget good enough for CSSU in the very near future | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | nice | 14:10 |
| jonwil | Already made a mailing list post about both things | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | alas I know *nobody* expert for gconf | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's even starting with g* UAERGH! | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | like gtk, and gnome, and err | 14:10 |
| jonwil | as for RE, I am not sure what to reverse engineer next | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | if you don't find good RE target, I may suggest NOLO | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | preferably NOLO of N950/N9 | 14:11 |
| jonwil | Thats not even on my radar screen | 14:12 |
| jonwil | I am only interested in reverse engineering userspace pieces and only for the N900 | 14:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-) | 14:12 |
| jonwil | if it wasnt so damn hard, I would find all the places where the cellular services daemon (and its plugins) talk to the outside world (i.e. dbus, gconf, disk files etc) and document them on a wiki somewhere | 14:13 |
| * DocScrutinizer shuts swearwords for some unknown process eating 100/200th of the dualcore | 14:13 | |
| DocScrutinizer | 40% xorg :-o | 14:15 |
| jonwil | Maybe I should see if I can use the info I already have and my newfound vigor for reverse engineering to create a 1:1 clone of the systemui tklock plugin for the slide-to-unlock screen | 14:15 |
| freemangordon | is back | 14:15 |
| freemangordon | so, whats the plan? | 14:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | smoking, moaning | 14:16 |
| freemangordon | no, thats not good | 14:16 |
| freemangordon | to be a pla :) | 14:16 |
| freemangordon | plan* | 14:16 |
| jonwil | me, I am trying to figure out what I should reverse engineer next after my success with the operator name widget and libconnui/libconnui_cellular | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: try to ping moh and X-Fade yourself | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | as.. | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | X-Fade: ping | 14:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | goes unnoticed | 14:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, I for sure will catch moh, you should contact X-Fade | 14:17 |
| freemangordon | ok, but lets first try to reach mag and council | 14:17 |
| freemangordon | as we need some official backing | 14:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 14:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | who's council nowadays? :-P | 14:18 |
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| jonwil | I for one intend to do whatever I can to make the N900 a better device | 14:18 |
| freemangordon | SD69, momchilo and jeremia (or something like that) | 14:18 |
| jonwil | and to make the stock software better | 14:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | jonwil: congrats, you just qualified for a seat in CSSU board yet to be founded | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-D | 14:20 |
| freemangordon | ok, so you will contact mag. and I will contact estel for support and will try to make a non-angry post on council thread | 14:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | good plan, please CC here | 14:20 |
| jonwil | Anyone who says "forget Fremantle, use MeeGo" is wrong, there is no way MeeGo-on-n900 can ever reach feature-parity with Fremantle IMO | 14:20 |
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| freemangordon | agree | 14:20 |
| freemangordon | fully | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | 100% ack | 14:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | I said that since err 12 months? | 14:21 |
| jonwil | And if people are willing to put in some effort and write some code, I see no reason we cant make Fremantle even better | 14:21 |
| freemangordon | the only thing is that n900 needs a liitle overclock :p | 14:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, and fremantle can have a long healthy life ahead | 14:22 |
| freemangordon | ok, jokes aside, I have to leave, will try to do my part this evening. bb | 14:22 |
| jonwil | of course there are some components of Fremantle too complicated to clone, replace or fix | 14:23 |
| jonwil | like the dialer and messaging UI for example | 14:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | won't be long until users on #maemo > users on #meego | 14:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | again | 14:23 |
| jonwil | or the closed web browser bits | 14:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: o/ | 14:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon: and many thanks for your continuous contributions | 14:24 |
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| freemangordon | np | 14:24 |
| mr_jrt | I'm determined to take a serious look at the messaging ui one day, actually. | 14:26 |
| jonwil | with the aim of cloning it? | 14:26 |
| mr_jrt | yup. | 14:27 |
| jonwil | a 1:1 clone or just a "hey, it does mostly the same things" clone? | 14:27 |
| mr_jrt | That would depend on how successful I am at discovering all the secret things it currently does. :) The inital goal, as always, is 1:1, then add support. Though I strongly suspect I'd not implement the conversations using microb. | 14:29 |
| mr_jrt | Anyway...it's little more than a staement of intent at this point. | 14:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer | actually it's hard to see role of microB in conversations. Render smilies? | 14:32 |
| mr_jrt | It's utter madness that they built it using html.... | 14:33 |
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| jonwil | I suspect the most difficult-to-clone part of the entire system would be the dialer UI | 14:34 |
| mr_jrt | Downside of couorse would be that it'd be harder for people to mod the view as they currently can using css. Small price to pay...and perhaps a good-enough alternative could be concieved (a-la the qtlockscreen replacement). | 14:35 |
| mr_jrt | Really? Why do you think so? | 14:35 |
| jonwil | It seems to be the most complex closed-source part of the operating system | 14:36 |
| jonwil | and the one that does the most in terms of special crap and secret stuff | 14:36 |
| mr_jrt | IIRC (from reading), dialling is just a matter of a dbus call. The scret stuff is the pain... | 14:36 |
| jonwil | dialing a phone # is simple. But the dialer does a LOT more than that | 14:37 |
| mr_jrt | ....unless the dialler ui is the reciever of the dbus call i guess ;) | 14:37 |
| jonwil | nope, that dbus call probably goes to the cellular services daemon | 14:37 |
| jonwil | a lot of the secret stuff is tied into the closed-source telepathy-ring | 14:38 |
| jonwil | as for the messaging UI, I think I might go through and find all calls it makes to other libraries and reverse engineer as many of the currently-undocumented ones as possible | 14:38 |
| mr_jrt | Just out of curiosity, do you have a couple of examples of things the dialler does? | 14:39 |
| mr_jrt | (aside from dial numbers ;) ) | 14:40 |
| jonwil | among other things, it has to handle calls other than cell calls (skype etc), storing and retrieving call history, conference calls, call waiting, emergency calls and dtmf tone sending (for automated phone menus) | 14:42 |
| jonwil | interestingly, the largest closed source binary (by file size) on my N900 is the flash player binary | 14:45 |
| Lava_Croft | :D | 14:45 |
| jonwil | I think the next biggest is the intellisync daemon | 14:45 |
| mr_jrt | None of those sound crazy-secret (i.e. at the same level as reverse engineering the graphics driver, for example). I could have sworn that the Maemo docs tell you how to initiate calls using any account (no idea if they just use the dialler ui though), call hsitory is dead easy, conference calls...hmm, call waiting....hmm, emergency calls....hmmm, and the tones should be easy. | 14:46 |
| jonwil | the trick is getting all the little hidden things right | 14:47 |
| mr_jrt | Quite. | 14:47 |
| jonwil | actually, the second-largest closed-source binary is the libatlas.so file from Nokia Maps | 14:49 |
| mr_jrt | My interest in opening things up is for bug fixing, mainly. That and filling-in the little feature gaps. The dialler's got no major problems AFAICT. | 14:49 |
| jonwil | Whats the interest in the conversations UI then? | 14:50 |
| mr_jrt | My focus is on things like the messaging and contacts UIs because there are little details that really bug me. Like not having anythign to indicate the default number for a contact. Conversations...could be better. Support for all the types of messages, for a start. It supports contact cards sent by SMS...but not calaendar events. I'd also like to integrate fMMS's view into it | 14:53 |
| mr_jrt | ...oh..and not havign a middle name field! ;) | 14:53 |
| mr_jrt | The backend handles these things fine...it's all just UI. | 14:54 |
| Lava_Croft | and make it not be silly about several people sharing the same number! | 14:55 |
| mr_jrt | Yes. That one too. | 14:55 |
| mr_jrt | The simpliest solution to that (for me) is that when you look up the number, take all the contacts that have it, (say for a home land line): mum, dad, brother, sister | 14:56 |
| mr_jrt | ...there's no way to choose between them, so the current behaviour is probably right | 14:57 |
| Lava_Croft | yeah | 14:57 |
| Lava_Croft | another solution is just make a seperate contact | 14:57 |
| mr_jrt | ...but, if one of the contacts returned ONLY has the number | 14:57 |
| Lava_Croft | named 'Parental Home' or whatever | 14:57 |
| mr_jrt | then use that one | 14:57 |
| Lava_Croft | but its not very elegant | 14:57 |
| mr_jrt | ;) | 14:57 |
| mr_jrt | Glad we're on the same page :D | 14:57 |
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| Lava_Croft | ;) | 14:57 |
| MohammadAG | sorry, bouncer down | 14:58 |
| mr_jrt | So I have "Parents", "Grandparents", etc | 14:58 |
| MohammadAG | also, no possible CSSU updates this week I'm afraid | 14:58 |
| Lava_Croft | MohammadAG: came across your framebuffer kernel last night, thanks for it | 14:58 |
| MohammadAG | Lava_Croft, you're welcome :) | 14:58 |
| mr_jrt | Only downside is it makes find duplicate contacts merges a bit noiser than I would like | 14:58 |
| Lava_Croft | why is it not in the repos, i wonder? | 14:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: please see chanlog, contact freemangordon, try to get some things sorted regarding commit permissions etc for CSSU git and maemo repo | 14:59 |
| MohammadAG | Put it there once and fucked up stock kernel :P | 14:59 |
| MohammadAG | CSSU git is all merged | 14:59 |
| Lava_Croft | ooops | 14:59 |
| MohammadAG | I forgot my laptop charger 200km away | 15:00 |
| Lava_Croft | carrying around laptop batteries has always been a chore | 15:00 |
| MohammadAG | can only get it on thursday | 15:00 |
| MohammadAG | I'll go looking for a cheap charger today for the week | 15:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | freemangordon needs full permissions to maintain CSSU | 15:01 |
| freemangordon | MohammadAG: great, and it is sitting there on gitorious for over a month, while modest continues to crash on users' devices | 15:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | and seems we should do a branch out or clone or what's the term, for .18 to stable right *now* | 15:01 |
| MohammadAG | freemangordon, I've been waiting for Nokia's update ever since they emailed us | 15:02 |
| jonwil | oooh good, the messaging UI doesn't seem to make that many calls to undocumented functions | 15:02 |
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| freemangordon | Why wating for nokia? | 15:02 |
| MohammadAG | freemangordon, they mentioned the update would be out soon after the email | 15:02 |
| freemangordon | we have critical bugs fixed on gitorious and we are wating Nokia fore some CPL UI? | 15:03 |
| MohammadAG | anyway, they said it should be out this week | 15:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | update for what? digifoolar? | 15:03 |
| freemangordon | this week asin ? | 15:03 |
| MohammadAG | tomorrow? tuesday? idk | 15:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | please clone .18(!) to stable *now* | 15:04 |
| MohammadAG | if you feel it's right to push an update now, I'll do that | 15:04 |
| freemangordon | I still don't get the relation between Nokia update and CSSU | 15:04 |
| freemangordon | Great, but really, it should not be like that. If one look how old the "modest crashing" bug is he would assume that there will be an update ASAP the bug is fixed. | 15:05 |
| freemangordon | same for camera-ui | 15:05 |
| freemangordon | we have a DATA LOSS bug | 15:06 |
| MohammadAG | Agreed, we need a roadmap tbh | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | then freemangordon will apply his patches meant to fix the modest issue, and we call that a feature freeze and see if we can build a stable releaso on it | 15:06 |
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| MohammadAG | freemangordon, the overwrite one? | 15:06 |
| jonwil | IMO camera-ui shouldnt have even been added to the CSSU | 15:06 |
| MohammadAG | I thought that wasn't fixed | 15:06 |
| freemangordon | yes | 15:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | aah, and camera-data-loss bug fix patches, yes | 15:06 |
| freemangordon | nikolai fixed it a long ago | 15:06 |
| MohammadAG | I didn't know that | 15:06 |
| MohammadAG | Did he mention it anywhere? I don't get emails about git repo changes | 15:07 |
| MohammadAG | ok | 15:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | jonwil: absolutely | 15:07 |
| MohammadAG | I'll push a critical update today | 15:07 |
| MohammadAG | hopefully | 15:07 |
| freemangordon | I told you that abot 20 day ago, check irc logs. when I was talking about new update | 15:07 |
| freemangordon | Still, that should not be like that | 15:07 |
| MohammadAG | which bug are we talking? | 15:07 |
| MohammadAG | I'd remember if you pinged me and I saw it | 15:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | pretty please could we fork out a stable branch *NOW*, before we slam in another bunch of "critical fixes" and "cool new features"! | 15:08 |
| freemangordon | want me to search irc logs and find it? | 15:08 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, I was planning a stable feature freeze | 15:08 |
| MohammadAG | with Nokia's update | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | wtf, this Nokia update is not even in testing yet | 15:09 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, I won't freeze on stable without it | 15:09 |
| MohammadAG | in case the update is released, CSSU is worthless without it | 15:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | *sigh* | 15:09 |
| MohammadAG | users on PR1.3.1 can't install it, current users will start breaking things | 15:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | wut? | 15:10 |
| MohammadAG | freemangordon, are you always free on Fridays? | 15:12 |
| * DocScrutinizer says good bye to the idea of a stable CSSU | 15:12 | |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, why? | 15:13 |
| freemangordon | MohammadAG: why? | 15:13 |
| MohammadAG | freemangordon, I was thinking we could agree on some meetings | 15:13 |
| MohammadAG | where, on Fridays, we'd review gitorious, if the changes are critical/a lot + stable, we push an update | 15:14 |
| * Lava_Croft hears good stuff | 15:14 | |
| MohammadAG | it'd be a weekly thing | 15:15 |
| Lava_Croft | < jonwil> interestingly, the largest closed source binary (by file size) | 15:15 |
| Lava_Croft | on my N900 is the flash player binary | 15:15 |
| Lava_Croft | er | 15:15 |
| Lava_Croft | curse you putty | 15:16 |
| MohammadAG | so freemangordon, should we agree on that? | 15:16 |
| MohammadAG | If so, I'll push an email to maemo-developers and make a post on TMO | 15:17 |
| freemangordon | MohammadAG: ok | 15:17 |
| MohammadAG | anyone else? | 15:17 |
| MohammadAG | Jaffa DocScrutinizer? | 15:17 |
| MohammadAG | Thoughts on a weekly meeting where we review changes and decide if an update should be pushed? | 15:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | why? Nokia update into testing: now+2weeks | testing testing and quarantine: +4weeks=now+6weeks | fixing of new bugs introduced by new stuff and fund during quarantine/testing: +3weeks=now+9weeks; || evaluation what new "cool features" were merged into testing branch during those 9 weeks: +forever | 15:18 |
| freemangordon | MohammadAG: I still fail to see why we are wating Nokia for a CSSU release fixing lots of bugs. Otherwise i really like the idea of weekly meetings. | 15:20 |
| MohammadAG | freemangordon, I'll release 16.9 tonight hopefully | 15:20 |
| MohammadAG | version 17 aka stable should follow this week when Nokia pushes the applet | 15:21 |
| Lava_Croft | is there a place where one can see some kind of future-changelog, easily | 15:21 |
| Lava_Croft | kind of like the current changelog wiki page | 15:21 |
| freemangordon | Are you sure Nokia code is bug-free? | 15:21 |
| MohammadAG | the applet? yes, the rest? should we care? | 15:21 |
| MohammadAG | we're only pulling an applet, that probably got a single line of code changed | 15:21 |
| freemangordon | ok, if you say so | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | BS, version 17 can never be "stable", it's maybe "a good 'golden' testing release" | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are no stable releases in testing | 15:22 |
| MohammadAG | 16.8 is far from stable | 15:22 |
| freemangordon | anyway, I really have to go, leaving doc to keep the fire :D. | 15:22 |
| MohammadAG | it's closer than any other release, but far from freezing it to stable | 15:23 |
| MohammadAG | freemangordon, should we agree on a time? | 15:23 |
| MohammadAG | that matches all timezones? | 15:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah, I'm already afk basically | 15:23 |
| MohammadAG | DocScrutinizer, so you got Speech to text? nice :p | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, text is my native channel | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | I got text to speech for occasional usage | 15:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, ok for applet being low risk to introduce new major issues | 15:25 |
| MohammadAG | it can only read data, so it can't harm the system | 15:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | but we will need to test and "fix" and maintain stable branch anyway, so no really good reason to postpone the branching | 15:27 |
| MohammadAG | FYI, a rewrite to change that may be better | 15:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | only downside: you'd have to apply the Nokia applet patch to both testing and stable branches then | 15:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | stable is not a snapshot_to_build of testing, it's a true branch | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | of all the patches that go to testing branch after the branching out of stable, you generally want to cherry-pick and backport to stable branch the ones considered tested and stable. That's what we should do with Nokia applet as well | 15:31 |
| jonwil | ok, so far, the only closed things the messaging UI is talking to is the accounts ui client (which is closed library, open headers) | 15:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | *occasionally* you create a new stable branch from a aged and matured testing branch rev, if testing evolved so much that there are a lot of *new* things that never got backported to stable. Until then you maintain stable branch by cherrypicking and backporting bugfix patches | 15:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | bottom line: creating stable branch from 16.8 now is better than waiting for testing-17 | 15:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | as right now tessting-16.8 is kinda mature and stable | 15:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and I'm *not* suggesting to build a release from stable-16.8! I'm saying we shall *branch* right _now_ | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | actuall branch t-16.8 + freemangordon's patches, as he says they are tested for quite a time now and seem to fix major issues and didn't introduce new problems on at least 5 users | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | then apply Nokia applet patch to testing, test for a week, backport the patch to stable, and then we might consider doing a build of stable and test it on some 5 devels' devices. if it looks good _THEN_ we may prepare a release | 15:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | of stable-17 | 15:41 |
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| mr_jrt | @jonwil Excellent to hear. | 16:13 |
| jonwil | still checking | 16:13 |
| jonwil | so far found it calls the aformentioned accounts UI | 16:13 |
| jonwil | plus some g_web_xxx functions (some are in the headers, some are not) | 16:13 |
| mr_jrt | AFAICT quickly, the accounts UI looks just like the one I bring up in my code with a DBus call which invokes rtcom-accounts-ui | 16:15 |
| jonwil | the accounts UI calls are documented anyway | 16:17 |
| jonwil | so thats no problem | 16:17 |
| mr_jrt | Incidentally: When I first saw the conversations view I thought all accounts got merged into one thread. I was a little dissappointed when I found out they don't, but no biggie. Seeing WP work that way though makes me want to have a go at achieving that for a second pass of an open messaging UI ;) | 16:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer | mr_jrt: .oO(¿¿merge all accounts into one thread? and then a SMS is sent to all your contacts concurrently??) | 16:27 |
| mr_jrt | No, all accounts for a contact | 16:32 |
| mr_jrt | So all the SMSes, MMSes and XMPP messages etc. all appear in a single conversation. | 16:32 |
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| jonwil | ok, more functions found that are undocumented | 16:33 |
| jonwil | rtcom-messaging-ui calls neteal_* | 16:33 |
| jonwil | which are totally undocumented | 16:33 |
| MohammadAG | when? | 16:34 |
| mr_jrt | Any ideas which lib they're in? | 16:34 |
| MohammadAG | grep neteal in /usr/lib | 16:34 |
| jonwil | libbrowserneteal.so | 16:34 |
| MohammadAG | isn't that the browser engine? | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | mr_jrt: then I fail to see how to select transport aka service aka account for posting an answer to that thread | 16:35 |
| mr_jrt | :) http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/RTCOM | 16:35 |
| MohammadAG | anyway, if you're thinking of reimplementing conversations | 16:35 |
| MohammadAG | using the browser is something I suggest not using | 16:35 |
| mr_jrt | Yup | 16:35 |
| MohammadAG | a C++ model + list is better imo | 16:35 |
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| jonwil | ok, next up we have osso_abook | 16:36 |
| jonwil | closed library, open headers | 16:36 |
| MohammadAG | that's for contacts | 16:36 |
| MohammadAG | used for contact info + dialogs | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | mega PITA | 16:37 |
| MohammadAG | contact info can be obtained via Qt Mobility | 16:37 |
| MohammadAG | a Qt dialog replacement can also be made, but the standard one may be better | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60526&page=3 | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | eeeew | 16:37 |
| mr_jrt | @DocScrutinizer, that's the trick, isn't it? Off the cuff, I'd suggest it uses the last recieved account, and if that's offline, work backwards until you've run out of accounts then try SMS/MMS, where it'll prompt which to use....or of course, letting you choose via a dropdown or somesuch. | 16:38 |
| mr_jrt | Anyway...that's a looooong way off. And there's always WP as an example f how well it works (or doesn't) | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | OMG please implement such scheme, to guarantee I have something to bash when I'm 120 | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | also I bet it will buy you *lots* of friens when each sentence from you arrives them at a different channel | 16:40 |
| mr_jrt | Why would it do that? | 16:40 |
| MohammadAG | that'd be fun | 16:41 |
| mr_jrt | ...just seems to me that what's important is the conversation, not the transport. | 16:41 |
| MohammadAG | not really | 16:42 |
| MohammadAG | what if someone gave his password to his gf or sth | 16:42 |
| MohammadAG | and she's talking over his facebook with his account | 16:42 |
| mr_jrt | It's anoying having to switch back and forth to follow the conversation because it started on facebook, then went to sms, then onto google talk and back to sms. | 16:42 |
| MohammadAG | but he wants to talk to someone without her knowing | 16:42 |
| MohammadAG | over skype | 16:42 |
| MohammadAG | for reading convos that may be fun | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | mr_jrt: exactly. You are supporting my point pretty good actually | 16:43 |
| MohammadAG | but for replying, absolutely not | 16:43 |
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| MohammadAG | unless you have a checkbox/drop down box that shows the IM being used | 16:44 |
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| MohammadAG | and you switch between them | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | and then the UI concept becomes EEEEW | 16:44 |
| mr_jrt | I'm not sayign they wouldn't be able to choose which transport to reply with...we're just discussing which it'd use without the user having to choose. | 16:44 |
| MohammadAG | nah | 16:44 |
| MohammadAG | similar to the current one | 16:45 |
| MohammadAG | but instead the icon would be clickable | 16:45 |
| MohammadAG | the one in the text box | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | tbh I think I never in my whole life switched channels during one discussion thread | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | rather I had separate threads on separate topics via different channels with same peer concurrently | 16:46 |
| jonwil | ok, next up we got some sms_xxx functions from libsms-utils.so | 16:46 |
| mr_jrt | Never arranged to meet someone on facebook chat, then gone out and sent a text to let them you you're there? | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | e.g IRCing while concurrently talking to the other end via phone | 16:47 |
| mr_jrt | Anyway. Can't be all things to all people. :) | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | or deifferent concurrent chats on several IRC channels and also jabber or skype maybe | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | it'd confuse the hell outa me if those threads got mixed and merged into one | 16:49 |
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| jonwil | next up we have time_get_synced. Closed library, open header | 16:50 |
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| mr_jrt | I don't use IRC on my N900 - Do they show up as seperate conversations? I assumed that a Maemo conversation was any communication with a specific account. I agree that group chats in the general sense would would almost certainly probably be best kept seperate. | 16:53 |
| jonwil | ok, so after completing my checks, the only undocumented functions used by the messaging ui are some g_web functions and neteal functions for the browser | 16:56 |
| jonwil | plus 4 sms_xxx functions in libsms-utils.so | 16:56 |
| jonwil | rtcom-call-ui uses a lot more undocumented stuff | 16:59 |
| jonwil | including a whole bunch of stuff in librtcom-call-ui | 16:59 |
| mr_jrt | Knowing what they do should help knowing how important they are: http://maemo.org/packages/view/libsms-utils0/ | 17:00 |
| mr_jrt | ...suggests there's no secret sauce to worry about. | 17:00 |
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| jonwil | figuring out how to use the 4 libsms-utils functions probably wouldn't be that hard anyway if we really wanted dto | 17:03 |
| * jonwil wishes more of the browser was open, or at least more of the headers | 17:04 | |
| mr_jrt | I do still find it surprising how much effort Nokia seems to have put in to manage the legalities of getting a closed UI using a OSS browser engine. | 17:07 |
| jonwil | I am surprised Nokia was so determined to have a closed browser UI in the first place | 17:08 |
| jonwil | Its not like there is all that much that the browser does that is particularly novel | 17:08 |
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| jonwil | or interesting | 17:08 |
| jonwil | or worthy of keeping secret | 17:08 |
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| mr_jrt | It's probably just the blanket UI=closed policy they have | 17:08 |
| mr_jrt | As we see continued to harmatten | 17:08 |
| mr_jrt | ...in a way it's handy, as it provides a commerical incentive to proper engineering practice : aka. seperating the functionality from the UI. | 17:09 |
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| jonwil | am I correct in thinking that Tablet-browser-daemon is what actually does all the work of loading and running and working with gecko? | 17:25 |
| MohammadAG | yes | 17:26 |
| jonwil | ok, so if you closed tablet-browser-daemon and all it uses, couldn't you then bring in a newer gecko version? | 17:32 |
| jonwil | or is there something I am not seeing here? | 17:32 |
| MohammadAG | I don't see why gecko can't be upgraded | 17:32 |
| MohammadAG | unless it breaks existing APIs | 17:32 |
| jonwil | it looks like all the libs tablet-browser-daemon talks to are open source | 17:33 |
| jonwil | so its just tablet-browser-daemon itself thats closed | 17:33 |
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| jonwil | ok, I think I am understanding how this browser works now. There are 4 parts, there is an open source set of libraries (including Gecko) that do all the real work, there is a closed-source daemon (browserd) that talks to those libraries, there is a pair of closed-source components (tablet-browser-view and browser-eal) that provide a web widget that can be embedded in apps like the conversations ap | 18:06 |
| jonwil | p and then there is a set of UI and stuff that wraps a full browser around the widget | 18:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer | jonwil: have you copied this terse but mad useful sentence to some wiki or sth? | 18:18 |
| jonwil | nope :P | 18:19 |
| jonwil | in any case it looks like the most useful things to clone re the browser would be the tablet-browser-daemon package and the dev package for browser-eal | 18:19 |
| jonwil | the first being that cloning it lets you totally replace the browser widget with something that presents the same dbus API | 18:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 18:21 |
| jonwil | and the second being that its the missing piece of the jigsaw if you want to embed microb engine in your program | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: again | 18:21 |
| jonwil | possibly also useful would be to clone browser-neteal itself (not just the -dev for it) and also tablet-browser-view | 18:21 |
| jonwil | The rest of the browser is just wrappers for it | 18:22 |
| jonwil | and isnt much interesting to clone | 18:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | nah, the GUI could as well use one or the other fix | 18:22 |
| jonwil | the main thing for the browser UI packages would be to figure out anything they talk to thats not known (dbus etc) | 18:23 |
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| jonwil | ok, after further thought I have decided that the hardest piece of closed-source-software to clone would be the PowerVR drivers | 18:44 |
| jonwil | which unfortunatly would also be one of the most useful :P | 18:44 |
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| amiconn | mr_jrt: As you seem to fiddling with messaging, including MMS - any chance to see some fMMS bugs fixed? | 19:05 |
| Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: Reanimate how? | 19:09 |
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| mr_jrt | @amiconn That would depend on the bugs. Initially I'll only be reading/writing to fMMS' database, so I won't be editing its code at all. Next on the list after that is altering the fMMS backend to use the standard event DB, so that might be the time to look at fixing bugs. | 19:46 |
| mr_jrt | When it comes to the PowerVR drivers...I'm about 20 minutes down the road from Imagination Technologies. Could always try taking them cake and asking nicely ;) | 19:52 |
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| mr_jrt | That said: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=ODk4Ng | 19:57 |
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| * merlin1991 just read a part of the backlog and has some ideas | 20:09 | |
| merlin1991 | whatabout we create a stable branch, wich leaves out camera-ui and modest for now? everything else seems to work bug-free | 20:09 |
| merlin1991 | and when we have a stable modest in testing + the camera-ui deployment and bugs fixed we inklude those into stable? | 20:10 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer, MohammadAG, freemangordon ^^ | 20:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | exactly | 20:12 |
| merlin1991 | I could maintain those stable builds and everything, since I have a replacement for my n900 now and can happily reflash every 20 mins to test | 20:13 |
| merlin1991 | a suggestion for gitorious would be to create a branch "stable" in each repo and pull in changes that come along | 20:14 |
| merlin1991 | no need to exactly copy the whole repository structure for the stable cssu | 20:15 |
| merlin1991 | thoughts? | 20:16 |
| merlin1991 | does anyone know if bug #12318 is fixed by now? | 20:19 |
| povbot` | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/12318 camera-ui open lid dialog has no close button | 20:19 |
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| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer: actually I think that forced-rotation isn't exactly a "stable" feature either | 20:26 |
| merlin1991 | sure it "works" but from a system point of view it's not a stable fix I think | 20:27 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: wich QT fixes did you mean when talking about them earlier? | 20:31 |
| freemangordon | a segfault+diginotar fix, look at my MRs, really cannot talk right now, sorry | 20:35 |
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