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| MoonTiger | hey guys :) | 17:54 |
|---|---|---|
| MoonTiger | is the cssu stable yet at all? | 17:54 |
| merlin1991 | MoonTiger: I don't have any weird reboots / similar stuff with it | 17:55 |
| merlin1991 | there are a few bugs, but I'd say it's stable | 17:55 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer will tell you a different story though | 17:55 |
| MoonTiger | hehe i've seen bug reports of modest crashing etc etc (not that its great anyways but still...) | 17:57 |
| MoonTiger | does it add useful stuff to the party i guess is what im asking | 17:57 |
| Damnshock | modest crashes for me sometimes | 17:59 |
| Damnshock | haven't had any data lost though | 17:59 |
| Damnshock | and it's not very usual | 17:59 |
| Damnshock | say... twice per week? | 17:59 |
| MoonTiger | eeesh | 17:59 |
| Damnshock | maybe a little bit more | 17:59 |
| MoonTiger | have they added the ability to tell modest to only get x emails or so many days worth? | 17:59 |
| Stskeeps | 'lo MoonTiger, good to see you around still :) | 17:59 |
| MoonTiger | hey Stskeeps :) | 18:00 |
| MoonTiger | i got me a n900 so im back :) | 18:00 |
| Stskeeps | hehe :) | 18:00 |
| Damnshock | I'm starting thinking of getting a new phone | 18:00 |
| Damnshock | as my n900 usb connector is starting to fail | 18:00 |
| Damnshock | :S | 18:00 |
| MoonTiger | i have an htc desire rooted with oxygen 2 on it ... its great | 18:00 |
| Damnshock | I'd love to see meego and nitdroid on it though | 18:01 |
| MoonTiger | right | 18:01 |
| Damnshock | I really like maemo but it has really rought edges | 18:01 |
| MoonTiger | it really is unbelievable this whole usb thing with the n900 | 18:01 |
| MoonTiger | even the cheapest crappiest phone has a rock solid usb connector | 18:01 |
| Stskeeps | mine would have lasted longer if it wasn't for the idiots pulling down the wifi at meego conference in SF - they stepped over my wire | 18:02 |
| MoonTiger | ahhhhhhhhhh | 18:02 |
| MoonTiger | that sux | 18:02 |
| Damnshock | I don't reallyl understand why it's so crappy | 18:02 |
| Damnshock | the device is so sturdy | 18:02 |
| Damnshock | mine is almost 2 years old and barely has some scratches on the side | 18:02 |
| MoonTiger | the one i have seems pretty solid and i filed all the cables down before i got it | 18:02 |
| Jaffa | Mine's lasted years - until this weekend. | 18:03 |
| Stskeeps | seems like a good time for newer device to come out | 18:03 |
| Damnshock | it is indeed | 18:03 |
| MoonTiger | i heard ppl are getting symbian devices as replacements from nokia now | 18:03 |
| Damnshock | I just don't wanna spend 600€ on another cell phone | 18:03 |
| Damnshock | that's my opinion though ;) | 18:04 |
| Damnshock | the thing is that I wanna use it for my work | 18:04 |
| Damnshock | but the n900 lacks some things | 18:04 |
| Damnshock | the email client for example is *crappy* | 18:04 |
| MoonTiger | the n810 was rock solid hardware wise ... just too slow | 18:04 |
| Damnshock | really crappy | 18:04 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: so I've heard | 18:04 |
| MoonTiger | and modest is like a bad curry ... it keeps coming back up in your face | 18:04 |
| Damnshock | anyway, n900 isn't a ferrari either ;) | 18:05 |
| Jaffa | Modest isn't *too* bad on Maemo 5. Far better than osso-email ever was | 18:05 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: no imap idle? in a 2010/2011 device? wth!!! | 18:05 |
| Damnshock | no gpg/pgp integration | 18:05 |
| MoonTiger | i know ... the imap idle thing is the killer altho i have to agree it is way better on the n900 than it was on the n810 | 18:05 |
| Damnshock | no threading, no collapsing (don't know how to call it) | 18:05 |
| Damnshock | don't get me wrong | 18:06 |
| Damnshock | this N900 is the best phone I've ever had | 18:06 |
| Damnshock | just for being able to write some scripts on it | 18:06 |
| MoonTiger | it cant be *that* hard to hack to code for modest can it? | 18:06 |
| Damnshock | is... wow | 18:06 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: I wish I could | 18:06 |
| Damnshock | I have some knowledge of coding | 18:06 |
| MoonTiger | i can ... im just wondering if its worth it | 18:06 |
| Damnshock | but I feel like getting to a level where I could actually help would take soooo much time | 18:06 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: it's always worth it | 18:07 |
| Damnshock | if you get imap idle running on modest | 18:07 |
| Damnshock | I'll invite you to dinner | 18:07 |
| Damnshock | :) | 18:07 |
| Damnshock | and it is *not* a date :P | 18:07 |
| MoonTiger | Stskeeps, is there a reason why nobody has picked it up and hacked it so far? | 18:07 |
| MoonTiger | hehe | 18:07 |
| MoonTiger | my gf might be upset if it was | 18:07 |
| MoonTiger | ;) | 18:07 |
| Damnshock | Stskeeps: how is the meego DE email client working? | 18:07 |
| Damnshock | hahha | 18:08 |
| Damnshock | well, we''d first to figure out how to meet | 18:08 |
| Damnshock | ;) | 18:08 |
| Damnshock | *have to | 18:08 |
| Damnshock | still, the offer still stands | 18:09 |
| MoonTiger | heh | 18:09 |
| Stskeeps | MoonTiger: which, modest? | 18:09 |
| Stskeeps | Damnshock: check the tablet ux mailclient i guess | 18:09 |
| MoonTiger | i might grab the modest and tinymail code and have a look see | 18:09 |
| MoonTiger | the n900 stock | 18:09 |
| MoonTiger | has it been improved in the cssu? | 18:09 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: http://www.tinymail.org/demos/Tinymail_Push-Email_on_OLPC_-_GNOME_Desktop_-_N800_and_770.ogg | 18:14 |
| Damnshock | improved? there were some changes I think | 18:14 |
| Damnshock | couldn't say it's been improved though | 18:14 |
| MoonTiger | wow that video is just sad | 18:15 |
| MoonTiger | i am used to android where the email *just works* really really well | 18:16 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: that's why I'm thinking on installing nitdoid in here | 18:16 |
| Damnshock | mostly | 18:17 |
| Damnshock | in fact, if I can get the 3g internet connection I will totally use it :) | 18:17 |
| Damnshock | I barely use the cellphone for calling | 18:17 |
| MoonTiger | me either | 18:17 |
| Damnshock | however | 18:17 |
| MoonTiger | sms / email / skype / gtalk | 18:17 |
| Damnshock | if you feel like trying the imap idle thing | 18:17 |
| Damnshock | you can use me as a beta tester ;) | 18:18 |
| Damnshock | don't get me started on the syncing problems and the N900 ;) | 18:18 |
| MoonTiger | im very busy with work at the mo but i will grab the code and look thru it to see if its something i can do | 18:18 |
| MoonTiger | i sync calendar & contacts with gmail using MFE | 18:18 |
| MoonTiger | works ok | 18:18 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: does not work here | 18:19 |
| Damnshock | always fails | 18:19 |
| MoonTiger | really? | 18:20 |
| Damnshock | indeed | 18:20 |
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| MoonTiger | u did the "empty the n900 calendar first" thing right? | 18:20 |
| Damnshock | I tried everything | 18:20 |
| MoonTiger | dang! worked for me no problem | 18:20 |
| Damnshock | no calendars, new calendars | 18:21 |
| Damnshock | appointments in, no appointments at all | 18:21 |
| Facaa | syncing calendar works ok to me, but i lost hope with contacts at some point | 18:21 |
| Damnshock | contacts, no contacts at all | 18:21 |
| MoonTiger | yah its def flakey | 18:21 |
| Damnshock | and for calendar I'm syncing with an app | 18:21 |
| MoonTiger | i worte the lil mgcal applet for the n810 | 18:21 |
| MoonTiger | so i know about the calendar thing | 18:21 |
| MoonTiger | wrote too | 18:22 |
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| Damnshock | I'm using erminig | 18:26 |
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| MoonTiger | does it work? | 18:27 |
| Damnshock | it does, the calendar gets synced | 18:27 |
| Damnshock | it lacks many features | 18:27 |
| MoonTiger | 2 way sync? | 18:27 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: If I recall correctly yes | 18:27 |
| Damnshock | I'll just try hehehe | 18:28 |
| Damnshock | just tested adding an appointment to google's calendar and it syncs correctly | 18:30 |
| Damnshock | let's check the other way around... | 18:30 |
| MoonTiger | ok | 18:30 |
| Damnshock | yeah, it works | 18:31 |
| Damnshock | I've been using it for weeks | 18:31 |
| Damnshock | but always used the calendar on the n900 for adding appointments | 18:32 |
| Damnshock | so I wasn't sure i'd work both ways | 18:32 |
| MoonTiger | ok good to know | 18:32 |
| Damnshock | the thing is that this app only allows you to sync once per day | 18:32 |
| MoonTiger | i tend to use my android or web browser to add appts then sync down onto the n900 | 18:32 |
| Damnshock | which is... well... simply not enough | 18:32 |
| MoonTiger | once per day??? | 18:32 |
| MoonTiger | wtf? | 18:32 |
| Damnshock | as a setting that is | 18:33 |
| Damnshock | if you go manually to the app you can do it as many times as you wish | 18:33 |
| MoonTiger | you mean auto sync once per day? | 18:33 |
| MoonTiger | ok | 18:33 |
| MoonTiger | still ... weird | 18:33 |
| Damnshock | yeah, autosync once per day | 18:33 |
| Damnshock | it'd be great to have it like once every hour | 18:33 |
| Damnshock | or something like that | 18:33 |
| MoonTiger | sweems really odd to have that limitation | 18:35 |
| MoonTiger | wonder why? | 18:35 |
| Damnshock | maybe just lack of time to add it by the developer | 18:35 |
| Damnshock | that would be something I could check, couldn't I? | 18:36 |
| Damnshock | hehe | 18:36 |
| MoonTiger | but if the auto-sync code is in there adding diff intervals would be trivial | 18:36 |
| MoonTiger | i'll add that to my list | 18:36 |
| Damnshock | hahahhaha | 18:39 |
| Damnshock | I'm pretty sure you've got a loooong list | 18:39 |
| MoonTiger | i dont like not being able to make things work as they should | 18:40 |
| Damnshock | well, image how frustated I feel | 18:40 |
| MoonTiger | ive always been a programmer so i have no idea what its like not to be able to change how these damn gadgets work ;) | 18:42 |
| Damnshock | my humble opinion is that it's kinda difficult to get started with | 18:43 |
| Damnshock | the development | 18:43 |
| Damnshock | I know some programming, probably enough to learn my way on my own | 18:44 |
| MoonTiger | yeah maemo and the sbox env are a pain to get running | 18:44 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: yeap, you are right | 18:44 |
| Damnshock | and the documentation is not very clear | 18:44 |
| MoonTiger | qt seems easier to dev with but deployment can be funky | 18:44 |
| Damnshock | MoonTiger: that as well :) | 18:44 |
| Damnshock | I have it installed at home | 18:45 |
| Damnshock | I have no idea how to get things compiled though | 18:46 |
| Damnshock | for example modest | 18:46 |
| MoonTiger | yah its a pain | 18:47 |
| MoonTiger | make files etc etc | 18:47 |
| MoonTiger | autotools | 18:47 |
| MoonTiger | do some reading on those | 18:47 |
| MoonTiger | once you get the hang of the basics its not too hard | 18:48 |
| MoonTiger | but it will hurt your head to start with | 18:48 |
| MoonTiger | did mine | 18:48 |
| Damnshock | that's the thing | 18:48 |
| MoonTiger | still does sometimes | 18:48 |
| MoonTiger | brb | 18:48 |
| Damnshock | and I don't have much time for that | 18:49 |
| Damnshock | I rather improve my programming skills than learning how to set this environment | 18:49 |
| Damnshock | hello? | 18:49 |
| Damnshock | I guess I had some lag | 18:49 |
| MoonTiger | just had to make some bread | 18:58 |
| MoonTiger | :) | 18:58 |
| Damnshock | hahahaha | 18:59 |
| Damnshock | bon apetit mon amic | 18:59 |
| MoonTiger | :) | 18:59 |
| MoonTiger | where bouts are you btw? | 19:00 |
| Damnshock | Barcelona :) | 19:00 |
| MoonTiger | no way!! | 19:00 |
| Damnshock | does that mean I'll buy you that dinner? | 19:00 |
| MoonTiger | your english is very good | 19:00 |
| Damnshock | xD | 19:00 |
| Damnshock | wow, thanks | 19:01 |
| MoonTiger | hehe well i am in vilassar de dalt ... a few k's up the coast | 19:01 |
| Damnshock | really? we're actually pretty close then | 19:01 |
| Damnshock | I have some friend in vilassar de mar :) | 19:01 |
| MoonTiger | yah i was in barcelona this morning just having some lunch etc | 19:01 |
| Damnshock | hahahahhahaha | 19:01 |
| MoonTiger | a 30 min bus ride | 19:01 |
| Damnshock | world is really small, ya know ;) | 19:01 |
| MoonTiger | so maybe you do get to buy me lunch :)- | 19:02 |
| Damnshock | hahahahahhahahaha | 19:02 |
| Damnshock | I'll be more than glad to do so | 19:02 |
| MoonTiger | i'll look into the imap idle thing | 19:02 |
| Damnshock | just remember to get me that imap idle thing working :P | 19:02 |
| MoonTiger | ;) | 19:02 |
| MoonTiger | ok gotta go back to do some work now | 19:02 |
| MoonTiger | catch you again soon :) | 19:03 |
| Damnshock | I'll be around here | 19:03 |
| Damnshock | my server is always on | 19:03 |
| MoonTiger | adeiu | 19:03 |
| Damnshock | fins aviat! | 19:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | merlin1991: I'll not stop bitching about it unless CSSU get at least as stable as stock maemo5, as it's meant to be even more stable than that, rather than less | 19:09 |
| Damnshock | DocScrutinizer: I guess all of us want that | 19:11 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Damnshock: well, then CSSU for sure shouldn't irreversibly uninstall stock components like camera-ui to replace them with new stuff that's beta at best. This is per definitionem not what CSSU is meant for, esp not when we could get same thing in extras without removing the stock thing permanently. And I mean permanently as reflashing seems only way to get the standard cam-ui back | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's like if a security online update for my desktop linux suddenly would decide to replace FF by opera, and no way back whatsoever | 19:20 |
| Damnshock | not exactly the same, is it? | 19:21 |
| Damnshock | cssu is not for everybody | 19:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | on al sane systems you have an option to select such things like default browser, and for sure killing stock cam-ui is a idiotic thing to do and shouldn't be done at all in CSSU | 19:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | cssu is definitely for *EVERYBODY* | 19:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | what do you think is the C in CSSU | 19:22 |
| Damnshock | well, that's the objective | 19:22 |
| Damnshock | i doubt it's in that shape though | 19:22 |
| Damnshock | community | 19:22 |
| Damnshock | that does not mean is for everybody | 19:22 |
| Damnshock | just for those willing to install it | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's not in that shape because there are things done that are stupid and not helpful | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | Damnshock: that argument is BS | 19:23 |
| Damnshock | then just do a cssu2 | 19:23 |
| Damnshock | and go ahead with your non-stupid ideas | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | Damnshock: why don't you??? | 19:24 |
| Damnshock | me? maybe because I don't see the need of it | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, the problem of unexperienced egocentric young male, no matter if they think they know a shit bout sw development or not | 19:26 |
| Damnshock | I don't see you are in a strong position to do such claims when you use words like "stupid" or "bs" | 19:27 |
| Damnshock | you arguments lose strengh | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | but you can't argue about my point that a cameraui that could as well go to extras-repo per CSSU wiki's own founding mantra hasn't the right to go into CSSU | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | and if you don't see how easily it could go to extras-repo then you for sure miss something here | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | I consider these invincible strong arguments against your point | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | and btw I don't see you in any strong position for any of the next time when you are using that old lame argument of "I do it my way, you don't need to install" | 19:32 |
| Damnshock | lame for you | 19:32 |
| Damnshock | as long as it's a volunteer work I understand that the one that is coding takes the decision | 19:33 |
| Damnshock | to do whatever he feels right | 19:33 |
| Damnshock | I can try to convince him | 19:33 |
| Damnshock | surely I won't do it by saying his ideas are stupid | 19:33 |
| Damnshock | ;) | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | as that's the argument of people who are short of better arguments, and usually they lose when using that | 19:33 |
| Damnshock | that's the argument of someone who respects other's free work | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | you are definitely wrong, as it's not up to the coder to decide what's going into CSSU | 19:34 |
| Damnshock | I'm not saying what you say is not reasonable | 19:34 |
| Damnshock | DocScrutinizer: then who is to decide? you? | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | nope | 19:34 |
| Damnshock | that's why I said you could create a cssu2 if you wanted to | 19:34 |
| Damnshock | which is totally respectable | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's still a board missing that does this | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | Damnshock: I was a bit involved in creating this CSSU, why do you think I'm temped to do it again? | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | just because you don't like the word 'silly'? | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're not going to bully me and my notion about the right way for CSSU out | 19:36 |
| Damnshock | bully? | 19:37 |
| Damnshock | dude, you have serious trouble if you think I'm bullying yiou | 19:37 |
| Damnshock | xD | 19:37 |
| Damnshock | besides | 19:37 |
| Damnshock | the thing is... what gets into the CSSU gets decided in a board by what you say | 19:37 |
| Damnshock | right? | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | I always have serously troubling feelings about dudes telling me "leave the project, start your own!" | 19:38 |
| Damnshock | therefore... most of them thought it was reasonable to install what's in it right now | 19:38 |
| Damnshock | DocScrutinizer: i didn't say that | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | you did | 19:38 |
| Damnshock | I said you *could* do that | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | BS | 19:38 |
| Damnshock | if you wanted to | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | how old are you? 15? | 19:38 |
| Damnshock | 12 | 19:39 |
| Damnshock | you surely are 82 | 19:39 |
| Damnshock | you really feel better by insulting others ideas and disrespecting them, right? | 19:39 |
| Damnshock | then again, I didn't said your ideas were bad | 19:40 |
| Damnshock | s/said/say | 19:40 |
| Damnshock | I just can't understand why you feel the need to be disrispectfull | 19:41 |
| Damnshock | at least is that how I'm reading your messages | 19:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | so let a 82 year old tell a 12 year old youngster about RL: this is FOSS, we don't practice PC here, we're not polite and graceful about the work of peers we really appreciate their work every day. It's obvious we "love" each other otherwise none of us were around here - and a dirct argument and concern about a single point is a compliment about the work in all, as if we wouldn't care or disrespect we wouldn't even bother to comment at | 19:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | all. Don't play siisi, this is a club of grownups | 19:50 |
| Damnshock | that's your opinion | 19:52 |
| Damnshock | mine is different | 19:52 |
| Damnshock | being "grownup" as you call it doesn't mean to me being able to accept insult from others | 19:53 |
| Damnshock | but if you feel fine with that... then it's your decision | 19:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | I haven't insulted anybody here - and I ask for proof of your claim | 19:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe this is a lost-in-translation problem | 19:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe our metrics differ | 19:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | then I'm really sorry, never meant to hurt your feelings | 19:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | but actually you hurt my feelings by telling "you *could* start cssu2" | 19:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's a gross suggestion | 19:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | it implies you own cssu and I'm free to define my optinion is an own universe apart from yours and everybody else's | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's really inpolite | 19:58 |
| Damnshock | it implies as well as you are capable enough of doing it | 19:58 |
| Damnshock | which, surprisingly, is not an insult | 19:58 |
| Damnshock | you can missinterpret whatever you want to try to prove your point | 19:58 |
| Damnshock | however | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, regarding why and what purpose for we created CSSU it is | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | an insult | 19:58 |
| Damnshock | just try to explain me how "stupid idea" is not an insult | 19:58 |
| Damnshock | xD | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | if stupid idea was an insult, we wouldn't ever get great ideas | 19:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually a stupid idea isn't a privilege of a stupid person, and any idea is better than no idea at all | 20:00 |
| Damnshock | what does "stupid" idea have to do with great ideas | 20:01 |
| Damnshock | you can have great ideas about something without having supid ones | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I take pride in the fact I consider 75% ow my own ideas stupid in hindsight | 20:01 |
| Damnshock | *stupid | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah, I see this would break the bounds of what can be done now, also we should probably move it to ##rhetoric | 20:02 |
| Damnshock | well, still | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | or ##philosophy | 20:02 |
| Damnshock | I seriously believe being polite and respectfull creates a better environment of working with others | 20:03 |
| Damnshock | who could think differentlly from you | 20:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | calling an idea stupid is neither disrespectful (except for the idea as such) nor inpolite, it's mere honest and to the point | 20:04 |
| Damnshock | it's honest, I'll give you that | 20:04 |
| Damnshock | I disagree about the respect thing though | 20:04 |
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| Damnshock | respectfull would be "if we do that i'd work better because 1...2...3" | 20:04 |
| Damnshock | that's respectfull | 20:05 |
| Damnshock | it's way much better than "bullshit, just do that this way" | 20:05 |
| Damnshock | and they are both honest and to the point | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok, so it's all about rhetorics | 20:05 |
| Damnshock | it's all about relation with each other | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | pleese forgive my french, I'm not as bad as you might think | 20:05 |
| Damnshock | french=friend? | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | i'm a grumpy old man but I respect all my peers very much - except L.P. :-P | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | french=language, diction | 20:06 |
| Damnshock | lp? | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | lennart | 20:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | who I love to call a moron | 20:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I know it's not correct to do this | 20:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | but I can't help | 20:07 |
| Damnshock | whatever... | 20:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | pukeaudio annoying me too much to treat L.P. nice | 20:08 |
| Damnshock | it annoyes me as well | 20:08 |
| Damnshock | xD | 20:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | but I'd never call anybody contributing to CSSU a stupid person | 20:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | I just like to criticise particular subsystems, concepts, ideas, whatever. Many of which originally been supported by me origininally or completely are my genuine ideas of yesterday. Calling them stupid is just my direct way to express what I think about the *idea* today | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | unrelated to any person, no insult etc | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | and of course my PoV is a bit biased regarding quality management, as I had responsibility for 100K or x millions of customers several times in my life, in several projects that I (contributed to ) manage. | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | you get a bit grumpy about too fast implementation of new stuff, by doing that, I guess | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | and definitely we never must forget about CSSU being targeted at _all_ N900 users. and <quote> Quality is of paramount importance to the Community SSU </quote url=http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU#QA_and_bugs> | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | in other words: CSSU is *not* extras-experimental | 20:17 |
| Damnshock | as you like to quote | 20:20 |
| Damnshock | Who is it for? | 20:20 |
| Damnshock | Long-term: all N900 users/owners. | 20:20 |
| Damnshock | For now: power-users, developers, Nokia/Maemo/MeeGo engineers, testers, documentation writers and those willing to risk a re-flash in order to help. | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed, but that's clearly __for now__, which implies we are aiming at bettering that every single day | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I'm contributing/consulting on an other distro which got trapped in the "let's fix the bugs with the new version of XY" which caused the number of bugs constantly rising instead of getting lower for almost 2 years now | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | I've given up on that one, as it's evidently too late to fix the issue there. Here we might avoid getting trapped even | 20:23 |
| Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: Still looking forward to your maemo-developers email on this so you don't have to keep repeating yourself. | 20:24 |
| Jaffa | Copy & paste your last 3 lines, expand a bit. Bosh | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-D | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok | 20:24 |
| MohammadAG | also I'm pretty sure camera-ui works well now :p | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | MohammadAG: quite possible. That's not the point though | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | even while it somewhat mitigates the case | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | the basic idea is CSSU should try to stay as lean as possible, pushing everything out to extras(-devel) that has any feasible way to do so | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | ideally CSSU was a metapkg consisting solely of extras-devel packages | 20:44 |
| MohammadAG | extras-devel never held upgraded system packages | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | so what? | 20:45 |
| MohammadAG | that would be mcsp | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | let's pick camera-ui for an example: there's no clear reason why it needs to go to CSSU | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | even while cam-ui is "system" | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | it would be necessary to get it into CSSU if and *only* if it would fix a major bug in m5-stock, and it'd be *mandatory* to install the cssu-cam-ui to keep the system at a functional level | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | as I see it for now, stock M5 with stock cam-ui doesn't need an urgent bugfix in that subsystem. So cssu-cam-ui clearly is an _optional_ package that can go to extras-devel | 20:49 |
| MohammadAG | it can't, you can't disable the stock camera UI and both APIs would conflict | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | as you know it's just a matter of redefining one symlink to switch between stock and cssu cam-ui | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure you can | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | one line | 20:50 |
| MohammadAG | messing with symlinks is a bad way to replace the package, you can see what mess that did with things like theme customizer and m-h-d | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | ln -s /foo/bin/canera-ui /new/cssu/camera-ui | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | kicking out the binary of a stock m5 package (camera), just to get that symlink, is for sure an even worse way to deal with it. And - as mentioned several times now - is unrelated to CSSU still | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | I offered to deliver the silly simple scripts to deal with switching default camera-ui by mere clickng of an app icon. This whole package can go to extras then, no way it's related to and needs to go to CSSU | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | you could get an *optional* app in cssu-repo (install it like any other app via HAM) that's called "permanent-replacement-camUI (including kill and nuke of original one, to free some storage)" | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can get same package to extras-devel, without the permananet bits, but instead allowing user to switch between stock and "cssu" camUI | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm fine with both approaches (preferrably get all both actually), but I don't think this belongs to CSSU-meta package to get installed unconditionally on enabling CSSU | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | please correct me if I got anything wrong about how CSSU and HAM and MPs work | 21:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: MohammadAG: what's included in mp-fremantle-community-pr (I.E. what packages get "mandatory" as dependencies drwn in by it)? And why do we need it? No kidding, I try to understand that bit | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | AIUI such a meta packet "requires" certain packages, and we can replace even those originally included in the stock m5 maemo-MP as that one "got nuked" by cssu-installer. Right? | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | so could that cssu-MP have *alternatives* for madatory system packages? | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | as in "we need _some_ mediaplayer for a working system" - not meaning we need the cssu-one but any alternative that gives enough functionality to keep the system functional | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | as it's now and as far as I understand it, we are replacing the problems created by stop maemo-MP with our own new problems we generate from making a similarly restrictive metapackage for CSSU | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/stop/stock/ | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | I wonder if we need a metapackage at all | 22:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | and if we really do, if we could make somewhat more "liberal" or simply smaller | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | e.g I'd prefer to uninstall mail completely, rather than replace it by a new cssu package that neither the system not I need, as we didn't need the old one. (meybe a really poor example, not even sure about if it applies at all, but I hope you get my point) | 22:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I'd like to see the number of mandatory installed things (by cssu) to scale down to the bare minimum needed to keep the system boot up and enter a basically usable state. this probably includes things like MHD, of course would consist of middleware stuff like dbus, csd and icd or replacements, mafw (or replacement)... I think stuff like mediaplayer, mail, etc could stay out of the MP and get optional | 22:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | as long as system doesn't blow chunks on any of those optional bits getting uninstalled or downgraded to stock or whatever version been compatible formerly | 22:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | honestly I think Nokia's concept of MP sucks and we should try to improve or get rid of it | 22:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: that's maybe another reason I've not sent a mail yet - I still haven't wrapped my head around all this sufficiently to feel like I got a proper notion how things should get handled | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are quite probably problems I'm not aware of, when going the way I would like to suggest | 22:46 |
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