IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Thursday, 2011-06-16

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JaffaMorning, all09:54
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: morning10:38
DocScrutinizerany comments to my confused monologue?10:38
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JaffaDocScrutinizer: Short version: HAM is designed to not let Extras packages disrupt the system; and its support for Replaces/Conflicts/Provides is limited at best10:44
DocScrutinizeroh :-/  - thanks for enlightening me about that annoying fact10:45
DocScrutinizerso how about keeping cssu MP as small as possible?10:46
DocScrutinizerI mean fools are allowed to even uninstall kernels ;-)10:46
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DocScrutinizer(powerkernel)10:47
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DocScrutinizerso I think we could reasonably remove some packages from cssu MP prison and allow user to meddle with them as she likes10:48
DocScrutinizerI think of stripping down the system from all components until reaching point of no return. I.E. HAM shouldn't be removable ;-)10:50
DocScrutinizermaybe xterm also should be mandatory and thus in MP10:50
DocScrutinizernot sure about dialer even10:50
DocScrutinizerfor sure there are system admins that would love to nuke mediaplayer, gallery, tracker...10:53
Stskeepstracker for sure10:53
DocScrutinizeras they are using the device as a mere remote terminal to maintain their server farm10:53
DocScrutinizer(sure there've been ways to do this, but I think we shouldn't perpetuate Nokia's somewhat odd concept of forcing a particular system/apps config onto users' devices)10:55
DocScrutinizerso my question is: do we *need* the cssu MP?10:56
DocScrutinizerif yes, then how much of the stuff do we need in there?10:56
JaffaDocScrutinizer: mp-fremantle-community-pr *is* stripped down massively compared with mp-fremantle-generic-pr11:00
DocScrutinizerAIUI the MP is also a major obstacle when it comes to finegrained updates /per-app-updates, which is a thing we often asked Nokia for11:00
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Which is why one of the enabler tasks is to mark all the old Depends packages as "manually installed", since fapman has a tendency to run apt-get autoremove regularly11:00
DocScrutinizerJaffa: Oh, excellent :-)))11:00
JaffaSo, after installing the CSSU, you can apt-get remove calendar (for example)11:01
DocScrutinizerJaffa: (autoremove) I had that tendency also once - killed my SIP :-P11:01
DocScrutinizerJaffa: I'm really all joy to learn that11:02
* DocScrutinizer hugs cssu :-)11:02
JaffaThere's still the issue that you can't apt-get remove modest without removing mp-fremantle-community-pr. But doing that only removes your ability to get CSSU updates through HAM11:03
DocScrutinizerwhy is modest in MP?11:03
JaffaAnd somethings, like Modest, could (theoretically) have a CSSU update which moved them to Section: user/network; and then removed from Depends in a later version (maybe - some niggles to work out)11:03
JaffaDocScrutinizer: So it can be upgraded to a later version than the PR1.3 one by HAM11:04
DocScrutinizerI guess because it's too tightly plumbed into the system?11:04
JaffaDocScrutinizer: More because "the system" thinks it's a system package which isn't user-upgradable11:04
JaffaAbsolutely agreed on anything which is frippery which can be in Extras should be. For example, CSSU MP pulling in a small control panel applet to allow configuration of orientation lock: fine. The apps which let you adjust all of transitions.ini - no.11:05
DocScrutinizeryup11:06
RST38hsmall control panel is also a no11:07
RST38hespecially given that it is ALWAYS being forced into your status dock11:07
DocScrutinizerso it's just about who's going to keep an eye on alternative ways to brute-force replacing stock components like camera-ui. If you give this thing a switcher for the /usr/bin/camera-ui symlink, it can become a clean simple extras package instead of irreversibly deleting the original blob11:08
RST38hBut, as none of you are doing any actual job on the CSSU (MohammadAG does), this is a purely academic discussion.11:08
DocScrutinizerRST38h: (mohammad) which is highly appreciated by everybody. Nevertheless I guess he'd also like to get guidance, as it's becoming tedious and non-exciting to decide such things on your own private realm all the time11:10
JaffaRST38h: The control panel applet would allow you to make it *not* forced into your dock :-p11:11
JaffaRST38h: And thanks, do I have to point to my merge requests? :-p11:11
JaffaRST38h: Or the bug triaging? Or the wiki work?11:12
DocScrutinizerJaffa: would you agree on cssu the group yet to defined needs a discussion about implementing a board that decides and guides on such topics?11:12
RST38hGuidance is penny a bunch11:13
DocScrutinizeror will we continue to do this on a holler-to-get-it-removed basis?11:14
JaffaDocScrutinizer: I think there does need to be more discussion about it, yes. Camera is a tricky one - yes, Extras packages could rape their way in for a whole load of CSSU stuff, but the potential for hosing a system would seem to be higher overall.11:14
JaffaRST38h: Your meta-guidance is fantastic, as always :-p11:14
RST38hI know, I know11:14
RST38hBut then, I am not making any suggestions, merely observing the play11:15
DocScrutinizerrather commenting it ;-P11:15
JaffaRST38h: True :-)11:15
DocScrutinizerok, thanks Jaffa - I'll ponder about these new factoids and re-evaluate my plans about sending mail etc :-)11:16
DocScrutinizeralso trying to find where things could get hosed and how to avoid that11:17
RST38hhttp://www.vincenteaton.com/Blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/muppet-show5.jpg11:17
DocScrutinizermaybe I'll actually contribute something constructive eventually11:18
JaffaDocScrutinizer: I'm glad you're taking an interest.11:18
DocScrutinizeralways11:18
JaffaRST38h: Which one are you? Statler or Waldorf?11:18
Jaffa("Sorry, we're all out of waldorfs")11:19
DocScrutinizerneed to keep my favourite device alive for the next years ;-D11:19
DocScrutinizer(muppets) bookmarked :-D11:20
RST38hBOTH, I am having a bipolar disorder!11:20
Stskeeps(no surprises)11:21
* DocScrutinizer curses lack of color printer11:23
Damnshockfor sure there are system admins that would love to nuke mediaplayer, gallery, tracker... <--- to the hell with tracker!11:54
RST38hAnd let us also nuke the Phone app and receive all calls from emacs!12:00
ThreeM:)12:01
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: you'd need SHR for this, or debian12:06
RST38hNo, let us do this in CSSU!12:06
DocScrutinizeryou know a guy who built exactly that for debian/SHR ;-)12:06
RST38hBecause I really want all the Mameo users to see how great EMACS is! You can even answer your phone in it!12:07
DocScrutinizeryou can ask Paul to port it to maemo :-D12:07
RST38hYea, right. Cool idea too.12:08
DocScrutinizerI heard emacs is a really great OS that only sucks on one bit: text editing12:08
RST38hI do not think EMACS would agree with you. But wait until they put it into robots and home appliances, it will take its revenge on you then ;)12:08
DocScrutinizeralas I'm a complete noob on lisp coding12:09
JaffaI think everyone outside academia is. They just get by ;-)12:15
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Damnshockgood morning MoonTiger :)13:59
MoonTigerhey :)13:59
MoonTigeri looked into the imap issue and it seems there are a lot of people working on it and it isn't easy to accomplish apparently14:00
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Damnshockthat's unfortunate14:01
Damnshockboth for me and for you14:02
Damnshockyou won't be getting that meal :P14:02
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MoonTigerhehe14:35
MoonTigerwell i am looking into it to see if there is a way that it can be achieved ... maybe i have to be an organizer instead of a coder for example14:35
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