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| MrPingu | Spark666 , I don't think so | 00:15 |
|---|---|---|
| spark666 | MrPingu: :( | 00:16 |
| spark666 | opera its more fast and touchscreen made for :P | 00:16 |
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| MrPingu | It's totally optimized for mobile devices, for sure | 00:18 |
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| spark666 | maybe one day the community will port the flash to opera :P | 00:20 |
| Sicelo | not impossible, but highly improbable | 00:22 |
| MrPingu | Let's hope for it ;) | 00:22 |
| spark666 | :D | 00:23 |
| MrPingu | Been playing with xbindkeys and I have some nice keyboard shortcuts now :D | 00:24 |
| spark666 | tell us about it :P | 00:25 |
| MrPingu | I installed app-search-app and binded it to Shift + Fn + Up arrow | 00:26 |
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| MrPingu | when I press that combination I get a pop up list with app selector ;) | 00:27 |
| spark666 | very nice | 00:27 |
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| spark666 | where should i write the aliases in ash? | 00:28 |
| MrPingu | lemme search... | 00:28 |
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| MrPingu | I have modified it a bit... | 00:29 |
| MrPingu | Isn't it .profile file? | 00:29 |
| spark666 | i have no idea,i know in bash its in .bashrc | 00:33 |
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| MrPingu | ah bad internet again =( | 00:37 |
| MrPingu | for user it's .profile | 00:38 |
| MrPingu | for root it's .bashr | 00:38 |
| MrPingu | * .bashrc | 00:38 |
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| MrPingu | I had to create .profile in /home/user/ | 00:38 |
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| spark666 | tnx very much :D | 00:39 |
| MrPingu | You can also change your PS1 to your own likings ;) | 00:39 |
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| spark666 | im trying to get rid of the ash prompt | 00:40 |
| MrPingu | What do you mean? | 00:40 |
| MrPingu | That busybox blabla? | 00:40 |
| Hurrian | use bash | 00:40 |
| spark666 | BusyBox v1.20.0 (Debian 1.20.0power1) built-in shell (ash) | 00:40 |
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| spark666 | enter help ... | 00:41 |
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| spark666 | yes that one | 00:41 |
| Hurrian | sudo apt-get install bash4 | 00:41 |
| MrPingu | Why not bash3? | 00:41 |
| Hurrian | ln -s /bin/bash4 /bin/bash | 00:41 |
| MrPingu | Bash3 can even replace busybox | 00:42 |
| MrPingu | by runing bash-setup | 00:42 |
| spark666 | dunno what to say | 00:42 |
| MrPingu | It was meant for Hurrian ;) | 00:43 |
| Hurrian | MrPingu, replace busybox as in replace all users' shell? | 00:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | MrPingu: yes, and it can eat you rcat | 00:43 |
| Hurrian | remove busybox and use coreutils? | 00:43 |
| spark666 | afaik bash can replace only for root | 00:43 |
| MrPingu | It can replace user and root | 00:43 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, as it will make device bootloop if you do that for user: user | 00:44 |
| MrPingu | but right now I have only busybox installed | 00:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | at least that's the tale | 00:44 |
| Hurrian | DocScrutinizer, /bin/bash as shell works fine for root and user | 00:44 |
| MrPingu | Docscrutinizer I replaced it for users also for some time | 00:44 |
| Hurrian | not trying anything else at the moment | 00:44 |
| MrPingu | No bootloop | 00:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | as long as all your coreutils in fact are still busybox, yes | 00:45 |
| spark666 | i installed enchanced busybox | 00:45 |
| MrPingu | When you link to gnu-coreutils | 00:45 |
| MrPingu | well then the fun is on | 00:45 |
| MrPingu | I miss the !! function of bash, actually | 00:46 |
| Hurrian | MrPingu, I think another problem is the coreutils being on /opt | 00:46 |
| MrPingu | What will happen if we overwrite them in NAND? | 00:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: o.O ?? | 00:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | Hurrian: actually, you might have a point there | 00:49 |
| MrPingu | Who got the ballz to test that point? :P | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | what for? | 00:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~ # bash | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | IroN900:~# which ls | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | /usr/bin/gnu/ls | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | IroN900:~# ls -l `which ls` | 00:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 25 2010-07-26 23:57 /usr/bin/gnu/ls -> /opt/maemo/usr/bin/gnu/ls | 00:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ~jrtools | 00:51 |
| infobot | somebody said jrtools was http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools | 00:51 |
| Sicelo | i'm playing around with wifi PSM .. anyone can suggest nice values for Beacon interval on the AP to avoid excessive lag with max PSM on N900? | 00:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | beacon interval is vastly irrelevant | 00:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | everything from 20/s to 2s/beacon will work | 00:56 |
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| Sicelo | which setting should i tweak then? | 00:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | probably 2/s is just fine | 00:57 |
| Sicelo | besides getting a better routter, of course? :P | 00:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Sicelo: there's one parameter that defines timespan between "meeting points" where both devices are supposed to awake and listen if sth is going on | 01:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer | that's just one parameter, and I can't recall the name, for the life of mine | 01:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | if however your AP doesn't play nice with N900 implementation of PSM, you're busted | 01:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | nothing to tweak then | 01:03 |
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| MrPingu | wtf, my wifi of n900 crashed? | 01:04 |
| Sicelo | guess i am.. this AP has setting for Fragmentation Threshold, RTS Threshold, and Beacon Interval (which defaults at 100) | 01:05 |
| MrPingu | Beacon interval, is only used for probing isn't it? | 01:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 01:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | Sicelo: DTIM interval | 01:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | default 1 | 01:08 |
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| DocScrutinizer | beacon interval is in ms, 100 means 10 beacons/s | 01:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | which is just fine | 01:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | 5 would suffice as well | 01:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Sicelo: iirc there are like 5 flavours of PSM implementations, at least | 01:10 |
| MrPingu | I am looking for that value that you mean, it's some kind of "ping" setting | 01:11 |
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| * Sicelo gives up.. no DTIM setting here | 01:12 | |
| MrPingu | + for mobile devices you should make the timeouts a bit longer for better results | 01:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Advanced_wireless_settings#DTIM_Interval | 01:14 |
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| MrPingu | http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Advanced_wireless_settings | 01:14 |
| MrPingu | got be kidding | 01:14 |
| MrPingu | Did I read your mind or you mine? :p | 01:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | here's probably where doom starts: >>Since beacon frames are sent using the mandatory 802.11 carrier sense multiple access/collision detection (CSMA/CD) algorithm, the access point must wait if a client device is sending a frame when the beacon is to be sent. As a result, the actual time between beacons may be longer than the beacon interval. Client devices that awaken from power-save mode may find that they have to wait longer than | 01:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | expected to receive the next beacon frame. Client devices, however, compensate for this inaccuracy by utilizing the time-stamp found within the beacon frame.<< | 01:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | MrPPS: look at timestamp and detal of both URL psts, then guess ;-D | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | wtf | 01:23 |
| SiceloN900 | test | 01:26 |
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| SiceloN900 | looks like i can only use Intermediate PSM on this particular Ap | 01:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer | not unusual | 02:27 |
| Vib3 | yo | 02:28 |
| Vib3 | is what | 02:28 |
| Vib3 | sup Doc | 02:28 |
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| Vib3 | too late to go to bar cos it closes in 1h | 02:28 |
| Vib3 | damn | 02:29 |
| Vib3 | started drinking again too l8 | 02:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer | sounds like Frankfurt | 02:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | though, not really | 02:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | pupnik always been way more insulting | 03:02 |
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| k273 | hi guys | 03:45 |
| k273 | I perceived that Nokia is giving away N950s in contest? | 03:45 |
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| k273 | y no massproducing it? | 03:45 |
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| nox- | elop killed it | 03:47 |
| k273 | ya | 03:47 |
| k273 | pity | 03:47 |
| nox- | indeed | 03:47 |
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| k273 | and from what I get too Nokia isn't too lucky with the way their winphones sell | 03:48 |
| nox- | http://www.asymco.com/2011/02/11/in-memoriam-microsofts-previous-strategic-mobile-partners/ | 03:48 |
| Hurrian | k273, yeah, it was surprising | 03:49 |
| Hurrian | Nokia still had them in stock? | 03:49 |
| Hurrian | how many warehouses of them do they have? | 03:49 |
| Hurrian | the whole thing smells of a killed consumer phone | 03:49 |
| Hurrian | probably ran for exactly one production run | 03:50 |
| k273 | o_O | 03:50 |
| k273 | What happened? Motorola launched a series of Windows Mobile phones culminating in the Motorola Q “Blackberry killer”. | 03:50 |
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| k273 | I wanted that phone, actually, yeeeeeeeeears ago | 03:51 |
| k273 | I'm shocked it didn't sell at all back then | 03:51 |
| k273 | *I was | 03:51 |
| k273 | nox-: that was a heck of an article. thanks! | 03:52 |
| k273 | saving it for future reference XD | 03:53 |
| k273 | This is the first time that either company has embarked on an alliance of this scope and nature. | 03:54 |
| k273 | laughable? | 03:54 |
| Hurrian | k273, i remember Windows Mobile phones actually selling a decent number of phones | 03:54 |
| Hurrian | they weren't as popular as Symbian, but suit-people loved them | 03:55 |
| k273 | of course, especially their HTC and O2 ones | 03:55 |
| k273 | yeah | 03:55 |
| Hurrian | WP7 is just meh | 03:55 |
| k273 | I tried that. Veeeery clunky | 03:55 |
| k273 | It brought back the old Symbian wound in me | 03:56 |
| k273 | Clunkiness is never a good thing no matter what | 03:56 |
| k273 | N900 is actually great | 04:00 |
| k273 | very | 04:00 |
| k273 | only thing I never tried (and want to) is webOS | 04:00 |
| k273 | the PalmOS was decent | 04:00 |
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| k273 | Can't think of any other company (in any industry) with 30+% GLOBAL market share voluntarily giving up their own, albeit ailing systems (Symbian, Meego) and switching to just make hardware for someone else. | 04:21 |
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| Hurrian | k273, it has been clearly visible that Nokia has committed suicide by going WP | 04:27 |
| Hurrian | the N9 was the fancy funeral | 04:27 |
| k273 | fancy funeral always sucks | 04:27 |
| k273 | =( | 04:27 |
| k273 | saw a lot of that kind here | 04:28 |
| k273 | the word funeral makes the word fancy lose its meaning. | 04:31 |
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| k273 | http://verydemotivational.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/demotivational-posters-history.jpg | 05:19 |
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| k273 | https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/385164_245474242178126_153853541340197_698259_1028326375_n.jpg | 05:45 |
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| psycho_oreos | the vehicles doesn't look like its from 1980s :þ | 05:52 |
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| k273 | XD | 05:52 |
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| * psycho_oreos thinks these demotivational posters have really lost their touch.. or at least in quality sort of sense | 05:56 | |
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| k273 | time makes everything age, psycho_oreos | 05:57 |
| k273 | *ages | 05:57 |
| k273 | or *age | 05:57 |
| k273 | yeah, age | 05:57 |
| psycho_oreos | lol | 05:58 |
| k273 | not natively English speaking here | 05:58 |
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| psycho_oreos | yeah I can see that but still that image doesn't really suit the message that the author wants to convey if one has even just a hint on the things the author uses it in their picture/photo. It kinda really ruins the whole thing if you know what I mean | 06:00 |
| k273 | I can see your point, psycho_oreos | 06:01 |
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| Hurrian | http://goput.it/7io.jpg should be demotivatored. | 06:10 |
| Hurrian | if these prehistoric hard drives weren't so rare, I'd bet that people would try to use them as electric car motors | 06:11 |
| k273 | o_O | 06:11 |
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| r00t|home | Hurrian: while they sure have stronger motors than today's HDDs, i doubt that they can power a car... | 08:44 |
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| Estel_ | freemangordon, if everyone assumes that "thumb2 can't work on N900" yet isn't able to give any details - beside reffering to erratas... | 09:23 |
| Estel_ | that You've already made working, + another single errata that is irrelevant due to way first errata works | 09:24 |
| Estel_ | + without it system crashes every few seconds, and with it, it runs fine for ages + no indication of errors whatsoever | 09:24 |
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| Estel_ | ...You can safely conclude that other people are spreading FUD, because they haven't did research You've performed | 09:25 |
| Estel_ | just use erratas, and if someone, anytime, notice anything that might be related to regression, You will think about it again | 09:25 |
| Estel_ | Personally, I doubt that will ever happen, it just "works" | 09:26 |
| Estel_ | my 2 cents | 09:26 |
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| Estel_ | I totally appreciate Your will to trace every single information that might lead to finding any regressions, but, it just seems everyone is saying "it wont work" without any merit. Especially, that You actually "experienced" that it works via Ubuntu 12.04 | 09:29 |
| Estel_ | on anither topic - freemangordon, do You remember, that we tried to chase ancient reboot bug? | 09:30 |
| Estel_ | I got idea what may be causing it | 09:30 |
| Estel_ | Could You edit /etc/default/kernel-boot and enable "early ssh"? | 09:30 |
| Estel_ | then, try rebooting few times | 09:30 |
| Estel_ | if You get hit by bug, it is it | 09:31 |
| Estel_ | ping Pali | 09:34 |
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| dm8tbr | Estel_: so ARM employees are spreading fud, huh? did you even bother to read the relevant IRC log? | 10:43 |
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| dm8tbr | Estel_: the most elegant way to prove beyond doubt would be if there would be explicit test-cases for the errata involved and it could be tried out in a before/after fashion. So far I don't think those exist. | 10:45 |
| dm8tbr | the fact that 'it just runs' is not proof. I've seen such bugs strike under regular operation once every 24/48/72h or even less often (statistically). | 10:47 |
| ShadowJK | I recall mru tends to spend weeks on working around hw and compiler bugs whenever a new arm chip arrives | 10:49 |
| ShadowJK | so if he gave up on it, I'd take his word on it | 10:49 |
| Hurrian | the technical docs say that the chip /should/ be able to run thumb/thumb-2 binaries. but there's a problem in the chip, so we can't run them properly. | 10:51 |
| Hurrian | a software fix is out, but it doesn't work (???) | 10:51 |
| dm8tbr | ShadowJK: also he specifically said 'tricky' and that it might not be worth it. he didn't rule out the possibility that it could be fixed. | 10:52 |
| Hurrian | other than ubuntu blatantly failing to work properly in a chroot, occasionally rebooting the phone or crashing apt-get upgrades, we're not getting any indication that the bug is actually doing it's buggy thing | 10:52 |
| Hurrian | since this bug happens randomly (but it should happen, given TI acknowledged the fault), it's difficult to make tester for it | 10:53 |
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| Hurrian | let's chalk it up to the list of things Nokia didn't do to optimize Linux for the N900 | 11:00 |
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| Estel_ | dm8tbr, of course I've read logs. Basically, this "arm employe" fail to provide rationale on "how exactly" freemangordon's implemented errata couldn't work. | 12:10 |
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| Estel_ | it's just like "trust me on that (tm)" | 12:10 |
| * dm8tbr headdesks | 12:10 | |
| dm8tbr | *plonk* | 12:10 |
| Estel_ | trust may work when some noob ask if kp developers could make more ram in N900 ;) but in this case, it's too low for a reason | 12:10 |
| Estel_ | thats why freemangordon concluded, how he hates that everyone is saying "it can't work" but fail to provide technical reason | 12:11 |
| Estel_ | if YOU think that freemangordon's proposed implementation of two erratas WON'T work, it's YOUR duty to provide reason, not his to prove that he is not a camel (tm) | 12:12 |
| Estel_ | up to now, he provided good arguments why kernel and bin errata should work, and why, in case of using those two, 3th errata is irrelevant (flushing whole range by 1st errata, when 3th errata is about flushing part of range) | 12:13 |
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| Estel_ | now, I don't care if it was said by random arm employe or not - if he fails to provide technical counter-arguments, it's not valid his reasoning, IMO | 12:14 |
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| Estel_ | any counter-arguments appreciated, instead of plumping sounds and hitting desk ;) | 12:14 |
| Estel_ | as I see there is no proper (or any) counter-reasons, I will say something more | 12:19 |
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| Estel_ | for me, this conversation on *beagle was miserably pathetic | 12:20 |
| Estel_ | mru just said "it won't work, stick to arm code" | 12:20 |
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| Estel_ | while freemangordon's questions about any other erratas etc meet only silence | 12:20 |
| Estel_ | "even if You can set secure bit, it's hard or impossible to do it properly" | 12:21 |
| Estel_ | "why?" | 12:21 |
| Estel_ | "just stick to arm code or get other chip" | 12:21 |
| Estel_ | cmon, it's pathetic | 12:21 |
| Estel_ | that guy just don't have idea, and instead of saying that stright "sorry, I don't know", hes playing "wise". | 12:21 |
| Estel_ | just my 2 cents, as non-developer, following logic, common sense, and overall sticking with meritocratic approach. | 12:22 |
| Estel_ | see ya later, I'm very interested how all of this is going to conclude. | 12:22 |
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| teotwaki_ | Python can be so redundant sometimes... | 13:28 |
| teotwaki_ | except Exception as exception: | 13:28 |
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| kerio | teotwaki_: you'd use e or something | 15:32 |
| kerio | and expecting Exception is probably stupid | 15:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I'm all with Estel_ and freemanG about those who claim to know should share their wisdom with freemanG who has proven to be willing to really learn and wasn't like "HLP PLZZ!!". I'm all with dm8tbr regarding we need a proper testbed showing efficiency of erratum bug fix in a 100% reproducible and analyzable way, so dudes like mru can look into it and explain what's still missing | 16:56 |
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| Estel_ | I'm all with DocScrutinizer about those two sentences ;) | 16:59 |
| Estel_ | but, I think You'll agree, that - in case of testbed being extremely hard to prepare (not feasible) due to bug nature, AND and the same time, arguments about invalidity if erratas (that freemangordon used) wrong, we may conclude that observation in "real life" is enough? | 17:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | no | 17:01 |
| Estel_ | Well, it seems to me that such practice isn't used against other bugs too | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's no such thing like an impossible to prepare testbed | 17:01 |
| Estel_ | I hope so. | 17:01 |
| Estel_ | and I said "not feasible" | 17:01 |
| Estel_ | what I understand from those bits of info | 17:01 |
| Estel_ | nature of this bug is so low-level random | 17:02 |
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| Estel_ | that we would need expensive hardware debuggers to prepare "proper" testbeds | 17:02 |
| Estel_ | yet, result of this bug = crashes every few second, that we experience in thumb2 compiled ubuntu on N900 *without* errata | 17:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | if you understand the nature of the bug, you're able to prepare a testbed that will provoke the bug sooner or later, and it will provoke the bug in a way you're closely monitoring and able to read the gdb trace of it later on and spot the one instruction that failed and didn't behave like expected | 17:03 |
| Estel_ | ...and, dissapearing (crashes) totally, *with* errata enabled as per freemangordon | 17:03 |
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| Estel_ | generally, true, and I would love to see this | 17:04 |
| Estel_ | but just *in case* of proper testbed requiring ARM hardware cpu tools ;) | 17:04 |
| Estel_ | I think it's not feasible to still chase it, *if* it doesn't give any bad results | 17:05 |
| Estel_ | thinking like that, we would never have hostmode on N900 | 17:05 |
| Estel_ | many things there are not "tested" for 100%, and some of them even obviously wrong (idle power consumption), yet, we use it hapilly | 17:06 |
| Estel_ | if freemangordon would need to spend 10k $ on equipment to hardware'ish test those low-level things, that TI already did... | 17:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's absolute nonsense | 17:07 |
| Estel_ | just to confirm that *their* errata is working like they said | 17:07 |
| Estel_ | ... just to be 100% sure that we're not hit by bug that doesn't produce any real-life visible errors... | 17:07 |
| Estel_ | It would be not feasible, IMO ;) | 17:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | as I understand it this errata are pretty clearly defined and not at all occuring at random | 17:07 |
| Estel_ | well, those who say that errata can't work told "us" that freemangordon's result (dissapearing of crashes in thumb2 ubuntu) are not valid | 17:08 |
| Estel_ | due to random nature | 17:08 |
| Estel_ | what I understand from errata is also *"ot*random nature | 17:08 |
| Estel_ | s/"ot*random/*not*random | 17:09 |
| Estel_ | but, this "not random" nature was hammered out, as it obviously stopped crashing | 17:09 |
| Estel_ | now, we're hunting invisible random bug that doesn't give any problems (!) and it's even unknown how this bug works and why it's random | 17:10 |
| Estel_ | cause people claiming it's existence don't want to share it | 17:10 |
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| Estel_ | with all proportions, it's like abil's "mysterious" fix for N900 | 17:10 |
| Estel_ | sometimes, reading logs from #beagle and so on, I think that everyone just "heard" about this bug | 17:11 |
| Estel_ | I bet that this is just big bullsh|t, due to fact, that previous erratas were *"ot* working, while people using them though that they've worked | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, we're testing a deterministic silicon erratum with a basically random testbed | 17:11 |
| Estel_ | true | 17:12 |
| Estel_ | and You know what? I may be wrong... | 17:12 |
| Estel_ | But I think that no one before freemangordon tried to enable this errata for N900 using proper secure monitor or how it's called | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | and the check for efficiency of any patch is "I didn't see anything bad happen" :-S | 17:12 |
| Estel_ | = those people though that errata is enabled, yet still encountered random crashes | 17:13 |
| Estel_ | -> gave up. | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | quite possible | 17:13 |
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| Estel_ | then, FUD started to live, that it doesn't work even with errata enabled | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: on such delicate topic please check your wording - an erratum can't get enabled | 17:14 |
| Estel_ | true. | 17:14 |
| Estel_ | thanks for correcting me. | 17:14 |
| Estel_ | but I'm sure You get what I mean, i.e. merit | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure | 17:14 |
| Estel_ | no irony that I appreciate it - others would like to catch me on such details. | 17:15 |
| Estel_ | ... and sophism'ish try to use it as counter-reasoning ;) | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | just you won't get atention from thiose we're trying to convince we need their expertise (mru et al) if we sound like noobs | 17:15 |
| Estel_ | yep. | 17:15 |
| Estel_ | erm, proper sentence would be "errata applied" ? | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | patch / workarround applied | 17:16 |
| Estel_ | yep. | 17:16 |
| Estel_ | btw, it seems to me that "mru et all" just doesn't care ;) | 17:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 17:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | it a set of annoying silicon errata against a chip revision they all never again will touch in whole their life | 17:17 |
| Estel_ | ... which bring me to conclusion that if does work (and it obviously does, as thumb2 compiled ubuntu stopped to crash) we could just movde forward... | 17:18 |
| Estel_ | and go back to this only if someone encounter bug apperance, OR idea for proper testbed. | 17:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, I'll not support any such enterprise as long as no decent story about how the bugfix works is delivered. And hosnestly I'm not interested that much in all this thumb thing either - I mean it's not like it will magically turn N900 into N990 | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | there's not a single ticket in tracker that gets closed by changing anything to thumb | 17:20 |
| Estel_ | sure thing, but decent story how it works *is* given already | 17:20 |
| Estel_ | but we can use thumb2 compiled things with, lets say, Mer kernel (nemo kernel) | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | errr wut? | 17:21 |
| Estel_ | let's say, for example, about this overrated ubuntu 12.04 thing | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're aware we need to compile any kernel for N900 anyway, and thumb vs arm is a compiler flag, not a property of the kernel c source | 17:22 |
| Estel_ | re-comiling this whole sh...t to non-thumb2 is non feasible | 17:22 |
| Estel_ | of course | 17:22 |
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| Estel_ | I mean that with little help from U-boot | 17:22 |
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| Estel_ | we can set errata properly and use (properly compiled) nemo kernel | 17:22 |
| Estel_ | with, for example, Lubuntu 12.04 | 17:22 |
| Estel_ | without recompiling the latter | 17:23 |
| Estel_ | proper nemo kernels for N900 are already available | 17:23 |
| Estel_ | and used ;) | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | so how the heck are they related to thumb vs arm then? | 17:23 |
| Estel_ | havent tested it myself, but reportedly, without unity bloat, ubuntu works blazingly fast | 17:23 |
| Estel_ | ubuntu 12.04 is thumb2 compiled | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | and that's related to mer kernel how? | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/mer/nemo/ | 17:25 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer meant: and that's related to nemo kernel how? | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | honestly, pushing THUMB silicon erratum patches into CSSU to enable nemo kernel to enable ubuntu, that's paradox | 17:26 |
| Estel_ | Who said to cssu? | 17:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer | aiui freemanG already accepted my suggestion to have a sysnode for enabling his thumb patches, in powerkernel. So everybody is free to enable it. I'm not convinced moving *fremantle* stuff to thumb will bring any benefit fo the general masses | 17:28 |
| Estel_ | mer kernel is newer version than default Maemo one + it contain some things (modules?) for hardware | 17:29 |
| Estel_ | that doesn't work with vanilla kernel of same version number | 17:29 |
| Estel_ | btw, errata isn't enabled in kernel-power, as for non thumb compiled code it's only slowdown (yet, not noticeable in real time) | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: thanks for explaining that to me - after all I suggested it | 17:30 |
| Estel_ | :P | 17:30 |
| Estel_ | CSSU doesn't have anything to do with it | 17:31 |
| Estel_ | cause only usage for errata is outside Maemo | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's one of my points | 17:31 |
| Estel_ | erm, haven't You noticed that whole errata saga is related to N900as hardware, not Maemo?;) | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | yet freemanG can't forget his dream to have Qt and GTK and whatnot else turned to thumb, in CSSU | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's where whole argument started | 17:32 |
| Estel_ | hm | 17:34 |
| Estel_ | if it would work faster than without thumb, why not? | 17:34 |
| Estel_ | after all, we have cssu -devel for purpose ;) | 17:34 |
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| ShadowJK | I'd like to see benchmarks, because iirc at the time omap3 came out and the people in #beagle tried thumb2, once all errata was applied the speed benefit was lost, and they still had random crashes weekly | 17:37 |
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| ShadowJK | (and mru wasn't an arm employee at that time, they probably hired him because he was filling up their bugtrackers) | 17:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-D | 17:39 |
| ShadowJK | ivwe also seen this convo in #mer / nemo / etc | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | (why not) simply because I bought a device with an OS that's supposed to work error free, and that property somehow been warranted by Nokia at that time. CSSU is meant to continue on that proposition, not introducing a "FMG said 'WFM'" type of scary huge modification, just for... what really now? | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | and no, cssu-devel also is meant to host projects *meant* for cssu-T and eventually cssu-S | 17:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | hosting thumb Qt there is as nonsensical in my book, as it was to host mer there | 17:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer | somebody once decided it's not worth the effort or not rewarding or simply not feasible to have fixed thumb in fremantle. This decission been done at Nokia once, and unless we get a *scientific* approach to prove why we could change that now, and also why we *should* change that now, I don't see the benefit of including any such stuff to CSSU | 17:46 |
| Estel_ | well, someone decided at nokia that we wont have hostmode | 17:46 |
| Estel_ | yet we have it, despite not being totally *scientific* proper usb compliant approach | 17:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes, and I took *scientific* approach to show it can be done nevertheless | 17:46 |
| Estel_ | if it will result in like what ShadowJK described - speed benefit lost and random problems, or even just speed benefit lost, of course | 17:47 |
| Estel_ | no way to put it | 17:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | it took me ~9 months to collect all the pieces | 17:47 |
| Estel_ | if, on the other hand, it would turn out working great, "scientific approach" would be needed to reason why *not* put it there | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | and it's been reviewed and explained to the sincle opcode how it works and that it actually works like that | 17:48 |
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| Estel_ | of course, but still things like low transfer speed (4 mbps) are strange | 17:48 |
| Estel_ | yet, we have hostmode available already | 17:48 |
| Estel_ | it would be stupid to wait until we tune all clock values etc | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: I'm not going to argue on that basis anymore, it's basically OT | 17:49 |
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| Estel_ | btw, I agree that no way of putting it into CSSU if it don't work. If it work and gain benefits, just put it. simple as that ;) after all, it's better replacement (deven compile-wise) of current things | 17:49 |
| Estel_ | no problem | 17:49 |
| Estel_ | btw my personal expectation is that we're not going to see any benefits from thumb2 on Maemo ;) | 17:50 |
| Estel_ | it's just strange to me, that this errata and thumb thing rise so much controversy, while other things with more impact on Maemo doesn't. | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | after all hostmode is a dedicated app everybody is free to enable and disable or just don't use it. Thumb-Qt in CSSU is forvefeeding stuff to a targeted custumer base that has no choice at all, except that nasty "you're free to not use CSSU" | 17:51 |
| Jaffa | Estel_: It's ironic that similar people are pushing for thumb in CSSU as also bemoaned the effort into coming up with a good packaging solution for rewrites in CSSU | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | which I promise I'll kill somebody eventually if this argument "your're free not to use..." will get used again | 17:51 |
| Estel_ | Jaffa, no idea what You're talking about - I'm not pushing for thumb in CSSU and I don't know anyone who is doing so. | 17:52 |
| Jaffa | Estel_: So no-one's pushing for it, no-one's doing the work and this is an entirely pointless discussion? Goodo. | 17:52 |
| Estel_ | well, consensus seems to look like "CSSU is for both things not-applicable via extras AND FOSS rewrites/bugfixesof closed bits" | 17:52 |
| Estel_ | Jaffa, no one is pushing for it, yet, one talented guy is working to check if it gains any benefit for Maemo | 17:53 |
| Estel_ | got problem with that? ;) last time I've checked everyone was free to work on whatever she/he want | 17:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's exactly NOT the precise thing he does | 17:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | he *assumes* it is beneficial for maemo, and pushing to get Qt-thumb et al into CSSU | 17:54 |
| Estel_ | honestly? it is. Have You ever heard that he is planning to put thumb2 and enable errata for CSSU without proving that it's faster/doesn't result in random crashes? | 17:54 |
| merlin1991 | gotta love the reoccuring theme on here | 17:54 |
| Estel_ | how he is pushing it into CSSU? | 17:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, even you did, some posts above | 17:55 |
| Estel_ | nope. | 17:55 |
| Estel_ | I just said that if it turns out to be working good, why not. | 17:55 |
| Estel_ | If it doesn't provide benefits/maked regressions, a no-go. | 17:55 |
| Estel_ | simple as that. | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | and "turns out to be working" been up to your discretion to define that | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | not with me | 17:56 |
| Estel_ | honestly, I see more problem with replacing kp enter and enter in terminal ;) | 17:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | cheers, I need a coffee now | 17:56 |
| Estel_ | thumb2 is just different argument for compilation, yeo? | 17:56 |
| Estel_ | yep*what do You want to define here | 17:56 |
| Estel_ | working faster/doesn't crash randomly = OK | 17:56 |
| Estel_ | no speed advantage OR worse speed OR random bugs - if anything check | 17:57 |
| Estel_ | then TRASH | 17:57 |
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| Estel_ | seriously, CSSU got more controversial things already | 17:57 |
| Estel_ | I just don't get why thumb2 heats up discussion so much | 17:57 |
| Estel_ | take Your time, I'll be off soon | 17:58 |
| Estel_ | + I'm absolutely sure freeman is reasonable guy and he won't want to include thumb2 into stable CSSU even on smallest signals that it may pose any regressions OR don't provide benefits. | 17:59 |
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| Estel_ | btw, Jaffa, are You working on something for CSSU, that collides with thumb idea? | 18:00 |
| Jaffa | Estel_: Not that I know of. Just experience with ARM coding and some of the problems switching instruction modes can have. | 18:02 |
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| Estel_ | I see. All meritocratic reasons are worth to consider | 18:02 |
| Jaffa | Given CSSU doesn't have much organised regression testing the more lower level changes, the greater the risk of a large, unnoticed, regression | 18:02 |
| Estel_ | so if You already know about anything that could break or will find it in future, everyone will be glad to hear it | 18:03 |
| Jaffa | Estel_: Of course. But low-level changes are risky; which means the balance of evidence has to be dramatic. | 18:03 |
| Estel_ | well, with guys like You and DocScrutinizer testing it religiously | 18:03 |
| Estel_ | I doubt anything will get unnoticed ;) | 18:03 |
| Jaffa | Estel_: BTW, English tip - "you" isn't capitalised. | 18:03 |
| Estel_ | heh, sure thing, I'm using it as a way of showing respect to someone I'm talking with | 18:04 |
| Estel_ | if it's totally wrong in english, I'll drop it, thanks for tip | 18:04 |
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| Estel_ | I agree about balance of evidence | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm not doing any regression tests | 18:05 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, kinda joking | 18:05 |
| Estel_ | btw what about this "You" versus "you", are, erm, you sure that it is't allowed in english at all (grammar) | 18:06 |
| Estel_ | ? | 18:06 |
| Estel_ | I always though it's form used in letters etc | 18:06 |
| Estel_ | You, He, She, etc | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | and freemanG for sure is no unresponsible fool, it just seems he - just like you - has not much experience with risk management in SW projects | 18:07 |
| Estel_ | His | 18:07 |
| Estel_ | I agree that I don't have experience in risk management in SW, can't say for freeman. Although, I wouldn't worry unless we have "physical" reason for it (something collapsing) | 18:08 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, are You naive english speaker? | 18:08 |
| Estel_ | what, bullshit question | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes ;-P | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm a very naive english speaker | 18:08 |
| Estel_ | epic typo | 18:09 |
| Estel_ | almost like one I made when I wanted to write to someone "at least You got moral satisfaction" | 18:09 |
| Estel_ | and it resulted in "at least You get oral satisfaction" | 18:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | lol | 18:09 |
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| * ShadowJK imagines hardfloat abi is bigger boost than thumn2+errata anyway | 18:13 | |
| * DocScrutinizer frowns at Qt using floats at all, figues a performance boost of factor 100 for Qt rewrite using proper fixedpoint arithmetics | 18:16 | |
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| DocScrutinizer | still I never would suggest to include such stuff into CSSU | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | as *nobody* can figure what's going to happen | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | actually I think Qt used float/real just for two reasons: a) coders always are lazy and generally have no idea about proper fixedpoint, b) on contemporary X86, float is basically free of penalty due to powerful coprocessor | 18:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | b) doesn't hold true on ARM / embedded though | 18:20 |
| Estel_ | Intel inside ;) | 18:22 |
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| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, do whole qt rewrite, You'll get both N950 and N9 in both categories ;) | 18:26 |
| Estel_ | considering Your calculation of N950 value (R&D / number of N950produced) You'll be a millionare | 18:26 |
| Estel_ | erm, IF Jaffa is right about You being totally denied in proper english, it will be hard like hell to get accustomed... | 18:27 |
| Estel_ | to not use it. I love those letter'ish forms. | 18:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | while you're at it, here's another one: was / is it you who constantly uses "ho ever" instead of "however" | 18:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | ? | 18:28 |
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| * DocScrutinizer breaks an old kbd into 104 pieces and rewrites each keycap with a nice "W". Throws the 104 "W" into the channel - "to whom it may concern" | 18:31 | |
| * DocScrutinizer slaps <self> for constantly usong "dunno" instead of "don't know" | 18:32 | |
| DocScrutinizer | using* | 18:32 |
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| Estel_ | ;) | 18:39 |
| Estel_ | yea, it's me | 18:39 |
| Estel_ | it's funny, as I though that hoever is proper | 18:39 |
| Estel_ | it's funny, as I though that hoever is proper | 18:39 |
| Estel_ | yet, spell checker corrected me to ancient form of "ho ever" | 18:39 |
| Estel_ | well, need to trust spellcheckers less ;) | 18:39 |
| Estel_ | unless planning to play in original shakespare | 18:40 |
| * ShadowJK suddenly realizes what he's currently working on is kinda silly | 18:40 | |
| Estel_ | compared to our englighted discussion?:P | 18:40 |
| ShadowJK | heh | 18:40 |
| Estel_ | ShadowJK, why in Your reswap script You're using 600MB as value for "respawn needed" ? | 18:41 |
| * DocScrutinizer HO HO HOOO | 18:41 | |
| ShadowJK | because my primary swap was somewhere between 600 and 700 in size | 18:42 |
| ShadowJK | now actually 2 gigs | 18:42 |
| Estel_ | ;) just though that using 768 mb, 600 is when fragmentation got chances of starting to bite | 18:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | sounds about right | 18:43 |
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| ShadowJK | fragmentation starts right after size of swap actually | 18:43 |
| Estel_ | it's kinda funny, as using 768, I - most of the time - "feel" when UI become sluggish, then, using reswap, it's 50-100 MB after 600 treeshold | 18:43 |
| Estel_ | only after? can't start before? | 18:43 |
| ShadowJK | i dont think so | 18:43 |
| Estel_ | I feel it ~700 MB of 768 swap used, sometime, little less, and fopr sure it isn't placeb | 18:44 |
| Estel_ | strange | 18:44 |
| Estel_ | placebo* | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | AIUI swap writes are strictly sequential until whole swap space got "used up" | 18:44 |
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| Estel_ | i.e. written at least once during swap "life"? | 18:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer | where it starts to re-use formerly used and then freed swap chunks -> fragmentation | 18:45 |
| Estel_ | I see | 18:45 |
| ShadowJK | Currently I'm rewiring a "fixed with chewing gum, duct tape and metal wire" system of 30kW in power, only I found no proper cable so I'm using some scavenged cable I found that viosually looks like it *might* handle the power. It feels silly replacing a half-arsed system with slightly less half-arsed | 18:45 |
| Estel_ | heh. What is using those 30kW? | 18:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: sounds like you're at work ;-P | 18:46 |
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| ShadowJK | yep | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | going to have another nice fireworks? | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-D | 18:47 |
| * DocScrutinizer foggily recalls some talk about IBGTs | 18:48 | |
| ShadowJK | SSRs | 18:48 |
| ShadowJK | actually I just threw out 6 40 Amp omron SSRs | 18:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | motor? or heating? | 18:49 |
| ShadowJK | heating | 18:49 |
| ShadowJK | going to be 8 Siemens contactors driven with 20second "pwm" duty cycle now | 18:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer | well, depending on physical I parameter of that PID system, a 20s PWN is/might_be absolutely sane - reducing number of cycles that may wear the circuitry | 18:51 |
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| ShadowJK | These are one of the few SSRs that actually survived here | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | hehe | 18:51 |
| ShadowJK | But that's because they were protected by some "hidden" fast-blow mcbs that were forgotten at some point | 18:51 |
| ShadowJK | because there was a second set of slow blow mcbs after those... | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | wow, strange design | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-) | 18:52 |
| ShadowJK | When old regulation system died a new one was just hurriedly slapped ontop of old thing | 18:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | usual practice | 18:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | idling machinery costs more than running machinery | 18:53 |
| ShadowJK | ya | 18:54 |
| ShadowJK | why im doing it on saturday 7pm | 18:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: that's the type of thinking that teaches how to maintain huge systems. When your little patch has any potential to stop a factory with 3000 employees for a whole day, you're not suggesting "let's try what happens when we replace Qt by a thumb compiled version" | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | same for a sw system that's used by 1000s of users | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | some of them maybe doctors, firemen, wallstreet brokers, whatever | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | 10% speed gain simply doesn't matter | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | if such huge unpredictable risk is the downside of the equation | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | you not even start thinking about such move, unless you got proper testbed that - on a scientific basis - proves your patch is OK and rock solid | 18:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | all this rationale doesn'T apply to hostmode at all | 18:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | still we (I avid the "I" here) invested any reasonable effort to understand and explain and trace on machine level what's going on | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | avoid* | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | and it's no surprise ShadowJK been one of the valuable contributors in that effort | 19:01 |
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| ShadowJK | you can call me Mr Luddite ;-) | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: I was able to *guarantee* there's no possible hw impact with using hostmode *beta*, as well as no possible incorrect usage that would cause any harm to either N900 or attached device (besides the inevitable always existing threats involved with unplugging mounted storage) | 19:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | for any ARM->THUMB adventure, we can actually guarantee nuttin | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | except huge headache in future bug triage, as _all_ future bugs have one more possible cause: this very thumb migration | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | while benefit is what exactly? Allegedly improved speed? More free space in root for what exactly? | 19:13 |
| kerio | what's thumb? | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | hell, even improved speed theoretically can introduce new bugs showing up, that previously simply were covered by the system sluggishness | 19:14 |
| kerio | also more space in root to remove optification | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | kerio: you can't remove optification | 19:15 |
| kerio | :c | 19:15 |
| kerio | but i really want to! | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can tweak your system to what I suggested in | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~optification | 19:15 |
| infobot | optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3" | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | some time ago | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~factinfo optification | 19:15 |
| infobot | optification -- created by DocScrutinizer <~jr@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Mon Mar 15 10:29:39 2010 (796 days); last modified at Wed Nov 30 04:17:02 2011 by DocScrutinizer!~halley@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 98 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 13s ago; it has been locked by DocScrutinizer. | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | you can do that at the expense of making your system incompatible to any NOKIA OTA update | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | as all the official repos and fiasco images rely on optification being in place | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | I hoped for Nokia doing the sane cut on PR1.2 and again on PR1.3 to replace optification by what I suggested up there | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | they didn't | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | risk management | 19:18 |
| kerio | :/ | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | now we're stuck with binaries living in /usr/[s]bin which SHALL live in /[s]bin, and thus /usr has to live in rootfs rather than own partition, where optification kicks in and symlinks each binary NOT needed at early boot time form /usr/[s]bin/* to /opt/*/[s]bin/* | 19:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | definition of /usr -> all stuff NOT needed during early boot. Nokia ignored that | 19:23 |
| Jaffa | Estel_: FWIW, "You" in English is only ever capitalised at the start of sentence. "He" tends to be capitalised when being religious and talking about God. It might also be capitalised in contracts if it's defined at the start. But never in conversational English, or even business letters. | 19:24 |
| kerio | yeah, i've read the FHS :9 | 19:24 |
| kerio | :) | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's up to *maintainer* of distro to move appropriate stuff from /usr/sbin to /sbin | 19:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | it's not like devels of XY binary decided for all times it has to live in /usr/sbin | 19:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Nokia never got the catch on that | 19:25 |
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| kerio | DocScrutinizer: the thing is, most stuff that installs by default in /usr/ should probably not be needed during boot | 19:26 |
| kerio | i mean, we need to load pulseaudio just for the fucking mr hands video | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | so the *real* optification whould've moved stuff from /usr/sbin to /sbin, and then moved /usr to eMMC and mount it | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | kerio: exactly | 19:27 |
| kerio | fucking nokia | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | the devel introducing that hands-video whould've been responsible to make PA move from /usr to / | 19:27 |
| kerio | oh well, nokia is dead anyway | 19:27 |
| kerio | no, the devel introducing that hands video should've been shot and buried in unholy ground | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | ack ;-P | 19:28 |
| kerio | but yeah, as a second option he should've moved pulseaudio to /[s]bin | 19:28 |
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| kerio | hell, why didn't nokia realize that only linux nerds would've bought the n900 willingly? | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: (re proper English) what's the (etymological) rationale for capital "I" then? | 19:30 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer: a lowercase "i" is the imaginary unit | 19:31 |
| kerio | and/or the index of a loop | 19:31 |
| kerio | clearly we need to avoid ambiguity :P | 19:31 |
| Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: Anyone who claims English is sensible or logical doesn't know it ;-) | 19:31 |
| Jaffa | DocScrutinizer: IOW, no idea. Just "is". I'm not a linguist, unfortunately | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | Jaffa: that's for sure :-D | 19:32 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer: anyway, we've complained about optification many times | 19:32 |
| kerio | to nobody in particular, but still | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | this ship is gone | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | unless we bring it back in CSSU next month ;-P | 19:33 |
| kerio | the real thing i'm mad about is that there's no good modern linux pocket computer | 19:33 |
| kerio | even if i bought another n900 (mine is about to die) it would still have too little ram and too little cpu | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | kerio: you *might* consider it a challenge to get nice stuff running despite (or even due to) low memory and little CPU grunt | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | as bloatware rarely ever is the solution to demand for decently working apps | 19:35 |
| kerio | yeah, but it still sucks :( | 19:35 |
| kerio | openpandora + dumbphone is ridiculous | 19:36 |
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| kerio | although it could actually be sensible | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | kerio: without sarcasm, could you think again and then explain what exactly sucks, in terms of UX | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok, HAM is slow as hell | 19:37 |
| kerio | i suppose i can't actually talk though | 19:37 |
| kerio | i'm stuck on PR1.2 | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | phone-ui sometimes laggy | 19:38 |
| kerio | and i actually love the UX | 19:38 |
| kerio | (apart from HAM, yeah) | 19:38 |
| kerio | (but then again, who uses HAM?) | 19:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | though I found a LOT of phone-ui lag is introduced by rotation and lately (on my system) by trackerd starting indexing as soon as recaller is writing the call .wav | 19:39 |
| kerio | ooooh right | 19:39 |
| kerio | forgot about that | 19:39 |
| Sicelo | w/in 25 | 19:39 |
| kerio | tracker is a fucking stupid idea | 19:39 |
| Sicelo | sorry. | 19:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 19:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | a fsckng stupid idea nd concept they perfected in HARM | 19:41 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer: it would be awesome on a quadcore with 8gb of ram | 19:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | no | 19:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | I hate the whole concept of replacing classical pathnames by a flat relational database that's not even integrated into filesystem | 19:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | HECk - WHAT FOR we _got_ a filesystem when trackerd is set up to eliminate it | 19:43 |
| kerio | but iphone! | 19:44 |
| kerio | and ipad! | 19:44 |
| kerio | i suppose that tracker is ok if you only make it index a single directory | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's a concept done by somebody trying to mimic apple while not even understanding the basics about it - completely ignoring this whole concept never panned out on iPhone as well | 19:44 |
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| kerio | well, it pans out quite nicely for music | 19:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | not even there | 19:45 |
| kerio | less so for videos and pictures, i guess | 19:45 |
| kerio | and OH GOD WHY so for generic files | 19:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | yup | 19:45 |
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| Estel_ | Jaffa, thanks a lot for explanation - will need to get used to it ;) | 20:09 |
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| Estel_ | I can't recall why I always though You is a polite way in letters | 20:10 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, historically, bot You and I (+ He She) was used by capital letters, thats why I've mentioned shakespare | 20:11 |
| Estel_ | it still live when talking religiously about god as jaffa pointed | 20:11 |
| Estel_ | well, religy doesn't like changes | 20:11 |
| Estel_ | it was a concept of great respect for someone | 20:12 |
| Estel_ | in many languages it still live | 20:12 |
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| Estel_ | i.e in polish you is "ty", but, in letters, we still use "Ty" | 20:12 |
| Estel_ | not in common writing of course | 20:12 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, as for testbeds erc, fortunatelly, we're not nokia and instead of risk management, we may use common sense :P | 20:13 |
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| Estel_ | any other drawback from doing optification as You suggested, besides nokia OTI breakage? | 20:13 |
| Estel_ | OTA* | 20:14 |
| Estel_ | BTW, as for tracker and recaller, it may be good idea to exclude recording's catalog from tracker via tracker cfg | 20:15 |
| Estel_ | my recaller recordings are written to truecrypt partition, that is excluded as a whole | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | yup | 20:15 |
| Estel_ | but even simple directory filter should do the job | 20:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer | my trackerd.cfg is fsckdup | 20:16 |
| Estel_ | ok, now little request | 20:16 |
| Estel_ | ;) | 20:16 |
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| Estel_ | Could You please take look at: | 20:16 |
| Estel_ | goddamn, something emptied my clipboard | 20:17 |
| Estel_ | fuck that, I need to refresh zerobin page @ 10 kbps connection | 20:17 |
| Estel_ | thanks godness it's not bloated | 20:17 |
| Estel_ | http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?a2f700981cc87f88#WyeBRNt5PAn+VUg32YDuWeTpzVmX+q6pR+OB5tL6r3g= | 20:17 |
| Estel_ | ...and tell me if it's ash or bas compliant? | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | wrt "common sense" - "we" need to take care of the majority of devels that aren't even aware of the term and concept. This mindset of those usually results in statements like "we need to put this into CSSU, as it's the right thing and it's bleeding edge and it would go unnoticed when we don't" | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: I'm not a living bash, so I have a hard time to evaluate if a script is bash or ash compliant | 20:19 |
| Estel_ | for me, if initial testings show no regressions AND decent gain, cssu-devel is good testbed, and cssu-testing later. BUT we don't have any candidate now, so we're sharing wild boar's skin :P | 20:20 |
| Estel_ | ok, sorry | 20:20 |
| Estel_ | it's just that this simple script doesn't work for me and I can't find reason | 20:20 |
| Estel_ | and by "doesn't work" I really mean it | 20:20 |
| Estel_ | no error messages | 20:20 |
| Estel_ | no exit codes | 20:20 |
| Estel_ | nothing | 20:20 |
| Estel_ | it's a wrapper for "eject" program | 20:20 |
| Estel_ | my skill are low so I could miss somethimg, but I can't any place where it should fail | 20:21 |
| Estel_ | now, executing it just starts new line in terminal | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: looks like ash to me | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer | consider >>set -vx<< | 20:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: also check true content of all your ENV vars you use there | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | some of them generated by grep etc might not look like you expect them to do | 20:26 |
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| Estel_ | yea, checked that | 20:28 |
| Sicelo | i'm sure you can also re-write this line to only use 'grep' instand of also using cat .. (cat /proc/driver/musb_hdrc | grep Mode=) | 20:28 |
| Estel_ | also ensuredd that all commands parsed to "eject" works when done by hand | 20:28 |
| Estel_ | Sicelo, thanks | 20:28 |
| Estel_ | I just dont get one thing | 20:29 |
| Sicelo | btw, this is N900? | 20:29 |
| Estel_ | IF grep etc would give unexpected or non-existent results... | 20:29 |
| Estel_ | yes | 20:29 |
| Estel_ | then, eject would be called with wron/lack of values and complain | 20:29 |
| Estel_ | instead of this, I just get new line | 20:29 |
| Estel_ | in terminal. No errors no "fuck You" no anything | 20:30 |
| ShadowJK | grr. I have phase to phase continuity of 40R where there's supposed to be none. I spotted a plastic junction box deformed from heat.. Good thing I measured stuff before trying to flip on power | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: add >set -vx< after shebang | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer | ShadowJK: OUCH | 20:31 |
| Estel_ | Sicelo, of course it's not my script, unfortunately. Blue_led wrote that, but hes absent. I asked about it a week ago without reply | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~220** / 40 | 20:31 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, erm | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | ~220**2 / 40 | 20:31 |
| infobot | 1210 | 20:31 |
| Estel_ | set what? remember, it's not my script, I'm trying to fix it | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | set -vx | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | as 2nd line | 20:32 |
| Estel_ | please write in simple sentences what to replace with what, and, prefferably, why, so I can learn | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | after shebang line | 20:32 |
| Estel_ | and do it myself next time :P | 20:32 |
| Estel_ | ouh, literally | 20:32 |
| Estel_ | I though You're using mental shortcut | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | #!/bin/sh | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | set -vx | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | banner(){ | 20:33 |
| Estel_ | Yea, did that, What it's supposed to do? | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | -v Print shell input lines as they are read. | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | -x Print commands and their arguments as they are executed. | 20:34 |
| Sicelo | Estel_: so where can i also get 'eject' ? | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | help set | 20:35 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, thanks a lot! | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | yw | 20:35 |
| Estel_ | Sicelo, wait a second | 20:35 |
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| Estel_ | Sicelo, normally, I would give You a direct link, but I'm on ~10kbps connection, so wouldn't You mind if I give Your "verbal" instructions? | 20:36 |
| Estel_ | go to tmo and write "cdrom eject" in search box | 20:37 |
| Estel_ | first result should be it | 20:37 |
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| Estel_ | Sicelo, few days ago I've tested optical media reader and hostmode, of course it worked great, and eject program is nice addition, helps in automating things | 20:39 |
| Sicelo | ol. ok. thanks :p | 20:39 |
| Sicelo | *lol | 20:39 |
| Estel_ | blue_led script should give it icing on top | 20:40 |
| Estel_ | I planned to upgrade this script to provide more functions of eject, but first, I need to make it working at all:P | 20:40 |
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| Estel_ | now I noticed that while in peripheral mode, it gives me banner "peripheral mode", but in hostmode AND optical media attached, it just ended with nothing (while executing commands by hand worked) | 20:41 |
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| * Sicelo wanted 'eject' to eject the fake cd-rom in a zeroconf usb modem | 20:41 | |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | t900:~# [ $e ] && echo 1 | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | 1 | 20:42 |
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| DocScrutinizer | t900:~# e=0 | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | t900:~# [ $e ] && echo 1 | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | 1 | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | I.E >[ $e ]< is wrong | 20:42 |
| Estel_ | I see... | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | use >[ "1" == $e ] | 20:43 |
| Estel_ | replace | 20:44 |
| Estel_ | [ $e ] && exit | 20:44 |
| Estel_ | with | 20:44 |
| Estel_ | [ "1" == $e ] && exit | 20:44 |
| Estel_ | ? | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | t900:~# e=0 | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | t900:~# [ "1" == $e ] && echo true | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | t900:~# e=1 | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | t900:~# [ "1" == $e ] && echo true | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | true | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | so yep | 20:45 |
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| Estel_ | allright, testdriving... | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | set -vx would have shown you immediately | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-) | 20:46 |
| Estel_ | used itp and original version ended with | 20:48 |
| Estel_ | e=1 | 20:48 |
| Estel_ | [ $e ] && exit | 20:49 |
| Estel_ | [ 1 ] | 20:49 |
| Estel_ | exit | 20:49 |
| Estel_ | modified one ends with | 20:49 |
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| Estel_ | e=1 | 20:49 |
| Estel_ | [ "1" == $e ] && exit | 20:50 |
| Estel_ | [ 1 == 1 ] | 20:50 |
| Estel_ | exit | 20:50 |
| Estel_ | I mean output when executing with -vx | 20:50 |
| Estel_ | whats the difference between 1 and 1== 1? :P my non-coder lack of skill is showing | 20:51 |
| Estel_ | well, I'll test it later with usb optical drive - I know, it's dumb that I've asked aboout it without optical with me, but I though script will contain obvious errors (which seems to be the case) | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: obviously it sets e=1, so it's meant to exist on [ 1 == $e ]&&exot | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | exit* :-P | 20:52 |
| Estel_ | I trust You on that (tm) :P | 20:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: so just one of those lines executes e=1 | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | *Peripheral*)banner "Peripheral mode";e=1;; | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | *Host*)[ ! -e /dev/sr* ] && ( banner "Host mode detected but no optical drive attached";e=1);; | 20:54 |
| Estel_ | ...and causes exit. got it | 20:55 |
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| Estel_ | btw, why script allowed him to define "e" as 0 or 1 inside first part, and later, as /usr/sbin/eject"? | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer | in any case function banner() should have printed a notification | 20:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer | unless it failed, e.g due to missing run-standalone.sh | 20:57 |
| Estel_ | hm, without host mode it prints notification, but when I've tried it with real disk attached, it did nothing | 20:57 |
| Estel_ | ouh | 20:57 |
| Estel_ | quite possible | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: (why did it allow) shell env are usually not strict types | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: this script needs to be run under user | 20:59 |
| Estel_ | with sudo | 20:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | still I guess a >run-standalone.sh dbus-send --system --type=method_call \< won't hurt | 20:59 |
| Estel_ | I see | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | no sudo | 21:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer | run it as user | 21:00 |
| Estel_ | ?!? | 21:00 |
| Estel_ | original package provided sudoers.d file | 21:00 |
| Estel_ | and tried to run it as sudo | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | sure, for eject | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's idiotic | 21:00 |
| Estel_ | user ALL = NOPASSWD: /usr/sbin/eject.sh | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | third and second last line use sudo - the script itself needs to run as user | 21:01 |
| Estel_ | blame blue_led, I'm just stating how it looked | 21:01 |
| Estel_ | hm | 21:01 |
| Estel_ | in fact sudoers file is quite verbose | 21:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer | I also frown at >dbus-send --system< - afaik you should contact org.freedesktop.Notifications on session dbus | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | not all sure about it though | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | you might wnat to check back at phone control wikipage | 21:04 |
| * Estel_ is uploading something to zerobin, which take ages on current connection | 21:05 | |
| Sicelo | btw, what do you want 'eject' for, when a 'umount' would do just as well, afaict? | 21:05 |
| * DocScrutinizer is afk, for some RL | 21:05 | |
| DocScrutinizer | sorry | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | eject does more than umount | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | Sicelo, usb drives without button (relying on software eject function) | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | the slim, lightweight type | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer | it also does "safely remove" | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, np | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | thanks a lot | 21:06 |
| Estel_ | + safely remove | 21:06 |
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| Estel_ | yea | 21:06 |
| Sicelo | ah, i forgot you were talking about optical drives :D | 21:07 |
| Estel_ | + eject got in fact many other nice functions ;) also for other media types (ancient floppies :P) | 21:07 |
| Estel_ | http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?8e7e886a078a7a24#vdqYUEeNJJBMYT7eHOzHj71aK5zp9qlTa6AFQNkkxD0= | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | sudoers file | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | unnecessary elevated privileges for eject.sh | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | ? | 21:08 |
| Estel_ | if only eject needs it and have granted? | 21:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | yes | 21:13 |
| Estel_ | Will test it, re-write as per Your instructions, then publish fixed version... Of course with proper credits to real author of fixed lines ;) | 21:15 |
| Estel_ | I mean "real author of fix" | 21:15 |
| Estel_ | for broken lines | 21:15 |
| Estel_ | thanks a lot | 21:15 |
| Estel_ | I wonder if blue_led never used his own script, or mysteriously it worked for him, lol | 21:15 |
| Sicelo | lol.. i had even thanked that blue_led post with eject, but now i didn't even know it existed :P | 21:16 |
| Estel_ | heh | 21:16 |
| Estel_ | what is Your tmo nick? | 21:16 |
| Estel_ | I wonder if kp contain modules for writing optical media | 21:17 |
| Sicelo | qhubekela ;) | 21:17 |
| Estel_ | ancient versions contained it, but later, all cdrom related stuff got mysteriously removed | 21:17 |
| Estel_ | thanks, lol | 21:17 |
| Sicelo | used to be my nick here as well, unti started to use my real name | 21:17 |
| Estel_ | better choice, IMO | 21:17 |
| Estel_ | would just love to write DVD with some data from N900 | 21:18 |
| Estel_ | just love it :P | 21:18 |
| Estel_ | and later, blueray :P | 21:19 |
| Sicelo | writing was supported before? :O | 21:19 |
| Estel_ | seriously, not only for sake of it | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | KP50 should have all iso9660 et al kernel modules again | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | afaik | 21:19 |
| Estel_ | yea | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | if not, spank pali | 21:19 |
| Estel_ | The problem - I've no idea how linux writing via command line goes | 21:20 |
| Sicelo | yay! /me kisses his N900 :D | 21:20 |
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| Estel_ | would need to search for informations how to even start :P | 21:20 |
| Estel_ | good to share files when pendrives are not around | 21:20 |
| Estel_ | many times You just throw things on dvd disc -as I'm using N900 as real computer with me, it would be great | 21:21 |
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| Estel_ | now I'm only waiting for Rpi to arrive, and dream of connecting N900 via hdmi out to monitors and TVs will become true :D | 21:22 |
| Estel_ | with decent resolution | 21:22 |
| Estel_ | Sicelo, do You remember how to test writing from command line? (optical) | 21:23 |
| Sicelo | i'm worse than you, lol | 21:23 |
| Estel_ | btw I wonder if writing tools (also GUI) from ed would have proper access to modules... They should, yep Doc? | 21:23 |
| Estel_ | seriously, Sicelo?I haven't noticed and though otherwise | 21:24 |
| Estel_ | (no irony) | 21:24 |
| Sicelo | hmm, not so sure i understand you there. otherwise, what i meant is that i'm noob, in the real sense of the word | 21:25 |
| Estel_ | ...and I've written that I though I'm more noob that You ;) | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: hm? writing tools from ed? | 21:25 |
| Estel_ | tools for writing things on optical disc | 21:25 |
| Estel_ | in Easy Debian | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | aah | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | easydeb | 21:25 |
| Estel_ | or to backup&write them like EAC or laserdisk | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm not sure about ED | 21:26 |
| Estel_ | well, generally cups works with USB printers | 21:26 |
| Estel_ | easy debian cups | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | but generally you need root access for all those tools - unless your physical device in /dev/* got user with full privileges | 21:26 |
| Estel_ | so why optical media should be different? | 21:26 |
| Estel_ | yea | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | simple as that: ls -l /dev/sr* | 21:27 |
| Estel_ | in easy debian, of course? | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | even stat /dev/sr* | 21:27 |
| Estel_ | if it sees it it can use it | 21:28 |
| Estel_ | understood | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | from wherever you want to use those writing-tools | 21:28 |
| Estel_ | ssh :P | 21:28 |
| Estel_ | joking | 21:28 |
| Estel_ | I just wonders why things that suffer from low memory (thus swapping) when run as easy debian chrot doesn't suffer so much when run as native ubuntu on N900 | 21:29 |
| Estel_ | as long as You get rid of unity | 21:29 |
| Estel_ | i.e. browsers | 21:29 |
| Estel_ | reportedly, chromium and iceweasel works with speed of microB on (thumb2 :P) ubuntu @ N900 | 21:30 |
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| Estel_ | (joke with thumb2, I'm sure it's not the reason) | 21:30 |
| Estel_ | ubuntu isn't less memory hungry than maemo | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | I would say the opposite | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | so wtf? | 21:31 |
| Sicelo | Estel_: if someone cold convince DocScrutinizer and everyone else that worked on h-e-n to also bring it on to Ubuntu/Debian, whatever .. | 21:31 |
| Sicelo | *could | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | chroot debian is quite native | 21:31 |
| Estel_ | erm, Sicelo, I may be wrong, but what's the problem with running hostmode on ubuntu/debian? | 21:32 |
| Estel_ | modules and scripts for hostmode are same | 21:32 |
| Estel_ | h-e-n itself is just gui running scripts | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | Sicelo: h-e-n basically is hostmode patches in PK | 21:32 |
| Estel_ | same scripts should work under, lets say, ubuntu 12.04 | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer | the gui is a nobrainer | 21:32 |
| Estel_ | exactly | 21:33 |
| Estel_ | using KP in ubuntu OR Nemo kernel with hostmode patches added... | 21:33 |
| Estel_ | and Y | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | lol | 21:33 |
| Estel_ | + scripts and You have hostmode | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | thought you've hit return instead backspace as you tried to delete the Y | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-P | 21:34 |
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| Estel_ | true, almost | 21:34 |
| Sicelo | does Nemo's kernel include those patches yet? | 21:34 |
| Estel_ | no idea. | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd be really surprised | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | but no big deal to include them for someone who can compile kernel already | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | hostmode hacks are really really nasty botch, not upstream-able | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | btw DocScrutinizer, what's the status of hostmode on N950? | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | vanilla have it? | 21:35 |
| Estel_ | or they screwed it again? | 21:35 |
| Sicelo | as using KP for ubuntu sounds like a not so good idea .. at least for debian i had serious issues with udev .. nearly every /dev node had to be mknod'ed by hand | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | limbo state, as I rarely ever touch HARM | 21:36 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, no surprise here | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro and me had a private session trying to test a "stock" openmode kernel with just some USB OTG related stuff enabled in devconfig, some weeks ago. We had to stop the session for both getting tired, and we haven't resumed yet | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | as for academic considerations it should work OOTB on N9 | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | nfc about N950 | 21:38 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, You got N950 via last year program, or N9? | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | I got both | 21:38 |
| Estel_ | ah | 21:39 |
| Sicelo | OOTB on N9? | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | yup | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | basically | 21:39 |
| Estel_ | at least something to make up for lack of microSD slot, eh? | 21:39 |
| * Sicelo must start learning to compile kernels, and try something out for N900. | 21:40 | |
| DocScrutinizer | just should need proper defconfig for kernel, as N9 by far isn't as fsckdup hw as N900 regarding USB | 21:40 |
| Estel_ | but I would still kill a idiot who haven't connected fmtx module to antenna | 21:40 |
| Estel_ | hehe, it's fsckd hw n every other aspect :P | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: well, that's a kinda justified notion :-D | 21:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer | (about antenna that is) | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | I wonder if it's possible to easily hw mod it to connect | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | some pads or whatsnot | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | at very least they could've spent a testpoint for the pin | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | something that doesn't include rebailing or drilling multilayer pcb :P | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | yea | 21:41 |
| Estel_ | they haven't made testpoint?... | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | I honestly doubt there is any (though that'S mere guessing) | 21:42 |
| Estel_ | just nothing, bga without connection to pcb? | 21:42 |
| Estel_ | I see | 21:42 |
| * ShadowJK located the phantom resistance to a previous kludge, and determined it nonissue | 21:42 | |
| Estel_ | well, there is a chance that I'll be able to test myself | 21:42 |
| ShadowJK | got sufficiently pissed off and gave up for tonight :P | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: when you're a council member you're free to send my whatever hw (N9/50) for me to disassemble and take hires scans, and analyze if I can find a testpoint | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/my/me/. | 21:44 |
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| Sicelo | :P | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm reluctant to do this on N950 and actually even on N9 | 21:45 |
| Estel_ | I got strange feeling that one day, someone, just for the sake of it, will buy one of rarely available SoC like in N900 with 1GB RAM and spent 200 dollars - or just time, if she/he own infrared soldering station - and upgrade N900's RAM | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm reluctant to do this on N950 and actually even on N9 that I got here | 21:45 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer, :P | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: I wouldn't need a working device for that | 21:45 |
| Estel_ | there are chances that I'll be able to do it myself for N950 | 21:45 |
| Estel_ | hey, MohammadAG got broken N950, doesn't he? | 21:46 |
| RST38h | MEANWHILE: Inflatable Meat Balloons Are the Perfect Decorations For Your Next BBQ | 21:46 |
| RST38h | WAIT. Isn't it what humans are anyway??? | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | OTOH IIRC I got the N9 for exactly that purpose to disassemble it...? <me starts thinking> | 21:46 |
| Estel_ | so, problem solved | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | going back to previous plan :P | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | You said You don't touch harmattan anyway, or rarely | 21:47 |
| Estel_ | risk management say risk is low ;) | 21:47 |
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| DocScrutinizer | indeed, and it's not like N9 wasn't replaceable | 21:48 |
| Estel_ | btw what ribbon in N900 You'he almost torn? this one that connect screen to motherboard? | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | yup | 21:48 |
| Estel_ | for me this thing is hard to connect again during assembly | 21:48 |
| Estel_ | OTOH, on one device, I've torn it to half width | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | the ribbon itself is sturdy, it's the connector at end which is crap | 21:49 |
| Estel_ | and screen still worked great | 21:49 |
| Estel_ | hm | 21:49 |
| Estel_ | I got different experiences | 21:49 |
| Estel_ | no problem with connector, yet damaged ribbon | 21:49 |
| Estel_ | yet I agree that it's sturdy | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer | this conector actually is 3 layers: real connector, then flex cable, then yet another small PCB to create 'jumpers' | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | all soldered together | 21:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | bend it and solder joints snap open | 21:50 |
| Estel_ | it's just misleading, it looks like being made from many small "wires" | 21:50 |
| Estel_ | yea | 21:50 |
| Estel_ | btw this main ribbon contain much less places of real tracks that I've thought | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | it looks like "tear 1mm and You're screwed" | 21:51 |
| Estel_ | while left half is actually just ribbon, no cooper | 21:52 |
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| Estel_ | BTW I observed strange thing. few days ago damaged N900 with secondary board (microSD slot and camera slide sensor) was torn away | 21:53 |
| Estel_ | was sold for almost same price as 100% working N900 | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | ouch | 21:53 |
| Estel_ | I wonder if idiots bought it, or they really think it's easily repairable? | 21:53 |
| Estel_ | this damn non-connectable ribbon to secondary board goes inside multilayer IIRC | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | idiots may think it's repairable ;-P | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 21:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | no friggin way to fix it once it's broken | 21:54 |
| Estel_ | ... and if it break, it does *only* on place where it goes from PCB | 21:55 |
| kerio | http://i.imgur.com/GsOUl.jpg | 21:55 |
| Estel_ | yet I must admit it's sturdy too | 21:55 |
| Estel_ | I'm now hunting for good source of cheap N900's cameras - would like to open it and remove IR filter | 21:56 |
| Estel_ | yet I'm afraid to try it with my module without having replacement | 21:56 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: there are new spare camera modules for N900 | 21:57 |
| Estel_ | not genuine ones I guess? expensive? | 21:57 |
| Estel_ | oh, I almost forget to ask - N950 really have 12MP camera software'ish limited to 8MP? any way/project to remove limitation? | 21:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | Estel_: http://www.saremi-mobilfunk.de/product_info.php/info/p4767_Original-Nokia-N900-CAMERA-Module-5-Megapixel.html | 21:59 |
| Estel_ | thanks | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | yw | 22:00 |
| Estel_ | holy shit, 43 euro | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | you know you'll need camera module extractor tool as well. Or some nifty DIY tooling | 22:00 |
| Estel_ | or gilette torn into two and screwdriver :P | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | yup | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-D | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | although I agree that extractor make it easy | 22:01 |
| Estel_ | BTW funny fact | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | I lost my stylus one day - unfortunately | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | and styluses for N900 in my country were priced like 7 USD | 22:02 |
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| Estel_ | then, I've bought one from china for 1 USD with shipping | 22:02 |
| Estel_ | it travelled half of the world, still being 7x less expensive | 22:03 |
| Estel_ | + styluses offered here were also from china, surely | 22:03 |
| Estel_ | although I must admit that original stylus is much harder, china replacements are quite elastic | 22:03 |
| Estel_ | lately my son bite off stylus tip, so I tried tto buy them for 1$ again | 22:04 |
| Estel_ | but wefre sold only in batches of 50 min :( | 22:04 |
| Estel_ | someone noticed that sending 1 stylus for 1 usd half a world away isn't good idea | 22:04 |
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| Estel_ | I needed to pretend being product manager of one famous polish gsm-selling company, and that I'm interested in buying 5k or 10k styluses... | 22:05 |
| Estel_ | to get 4 piece sample for 4 usd shipped | 22:05 |
| Estel_ | ok, I' off for now | 22:07 |
| Estel_ | I'm | 22:07 |
| Estel_ | see ya! | 22:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer | WTF?! | 22:24 |
| kerio | lol | 22:24 |
| Sicelo | yay! | 22:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer | :-S | 22:25 |
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| StyXman | damn, one of my chinese batts just fell apart | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | there been a netspilt, or my server had problems? | 22:27 |
| StyXman | DocScrutinizer: 21:23 -!- DocScrutinizer51 [~lagrange@openmoko/engineers/joerg] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | :nod: | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | sary | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer | sCary even | 22:28 |
| ShadowJK | StyXman; generic one or a brand name chinese batt? | 22:28 |
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| StyXman | the only thing that looks like a brand name is actually a certification icon | 22:37 |
| StyXman | so I guess generic is the answer | 22:37 |
| StyXman | more like «cheap and nasty» | 22:37 |
| kerio | cheap and nasty is good | 22:39 |
| kerio | although exploding lithium batteries have a destructive potential that you shouldn't underestimate | 22:39 |
| * ShadowJK is currently using a japod from dx | 22:41 | |
| ShadowJK | electrically it's superb | 22:41 |
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| Estel_ | hey DocScrutinizer, of course with Your suggestions eject.sh work fine | 23:51 |
| Estel_ | Thanks a lot, again. I've modofied it as per Your suggestions, + added something from myself (tuned it to not fail mounting filesystem of less-than-ideal cd's and in case of failure, drop messages @ user face, instead of collapsing, etc) | 23:53 |
| Estel_ | of course fixed permissions and deleten unnecessary elevated ones too. | 23:53 |
| Estel_ | I'm going to publish it with changes - could You or anyone else knowledgeable take a look if no more code cleanup suggestions should be made? | 23:53 |
| Estel_ | http://sebsauvage.net/paste/?d979078432f27717#H7pJu7vAsx4J9Uc6bui/YkFFuuP10nHIxJTA953NyxA= | 23:53 |
| Estel_ | it even have "GUI fronentd" - I mean single tray icon as per blue_led, that now opens tray, close it (like real button) and upon closing,automatically mount cd's/DVD's filesystem (before fix, it collapsed, due to lack of waiting time between closing tray and trying to mount filesystem) | 23:55 |
| Estel_ | It's also priceless for ultra-light trayless optical drives | 23:55 |
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| Estel_ | if anyone sees something that should be made more clean in code, drop me a note. If not, I'll post it soon. | 23:56 |
| Sicelo | m=$(cat /proc/driver/musb_hdrc | grep Mode=) .. i do feel a grep Mode= /proc/..... would be 'neat' | 23:57 |
| Sicelo | my two cents | 23:57 |
| Estel_ | shit, forget that, You already said about this | 23:57 |
| Estel_ | will it work without elevated permissions? | 23:58 |
| Estel_ | cat /proc/... works, but trying more irect things on it require root | 23:58 |
| Estel_ | well, gotta check that :P | 23:58 |
| Sicelo | that line? it's practically the same as the one you have | 23:58 |
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