IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2011-03-19

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DocScrutinizerGuySoft: then reflash, and DO NOT restore all those fancy little applets and whatnot, that some of them are known to keep system busy. Deactivate skype and IM as well00:17
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DocScrutinizerGuySoft: worst case you have a perfectly working power-humble system that 'just' is logged in to a rogue fubar 3G data carrier that forwards random pings originating around the world to the IP addr of your GSM interface. This will keep even a completely idle system in a state of permanent TX similar to a never ending phonecall00:20
thomasjfoxGuySoft: Another option would be to install "powertop" and see which application is waking up the CPU00:23
GuySoftDocScrutinizer, its a n810, its like a phone without the evil00:23
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DocScrutinizerohh, so no idea then00:24
ZogG_wMohammadAG: did u think of submiting maemo-cssu to gcos '11 ? =)00:24
DocScrutinizerpowertop is your best bet then00:24
DocScrutinizerif that's even available for diablo00:24
GuySoftDocScrutinizer, i am not sure, let me look00:25
thomasjfoxDocScrutinizer, GuySoft: I think it's only available for fremantle / N90000:25
GuySoftE: Couldn't find package powertop :(00:27
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DocScrutinizerwell, for N810 I think there are hidden and not so hidden power hogs as well: CPU freq governor policy (keep CPU at high clock all the time, profile "power" or "performance" or sth), vboost providing 5V to USB for nuttin, frontcam enabled, ...???00:28
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ShadowJKGuySoft, do you have it on wifi? is powersaving at max?00:29
GuySofti found a package of powertop00:29
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ShadowJKIt doesn't work on N810's kernel00:30
GuySoftShadowJK, i have wifi on yes00:30
DocScrutinizercheck wifi advanced settings, powersaving00:31
DocScrutinizerit's a HUGE hog when not at max00:31
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DocScrutinizereven at max it may still fail on particular APs00:32
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ShadowJKThough if this is a sudden problem, and the AP hasn't been changed or touched, it's probably not that it's crap at max :)00:34
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DocScrutinizeryeah IF00:52
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DocScrutinizerdebugging powerdrain in a system is basically partially dirt simple, partially it's mere voodoo00:53
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DocScrutinizerand for sure it's virtually impossible with a "did nuttin, now borked, HALLP!" report00:54
DocScrutinizerI.E "more info needed"00:55
ShadowJKIf it's truly a "did nuttin, now borked" case, then I'd blame the battery00:58
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DocScrutinizersure, *usually* it's hw then (except for filled up root due to growing syslog, automatic updates fsckng up sth, etc)01:04
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DocScrutinizerbut 99.5% are of the class "*I* did nothing! ... !!! ...! ... ... ... Sure, HAM installed that update of foobar, but I don't even use foobar"01:07
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DocScrutinizeror "I didn't even touch the device! Definitely! ... aaah, yes, my neighbour got a new DSL. Why is that relevant? ... Yes I use my neighbour's AP, but still I didn't do any changes to my device"01:11
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Macerwow01:22
Macerskype/telepathy is such a battery whore01:22
Robot101it's skype01:23
APTXbut it has dbus!01:23
Robot101telepathy (eg XMPP, and SIP) hooks into the device-wide heartbeat stuff, to suppress keep-alives01:23
Maceryeah01:24
Macerskype doesnt seem to do that ;)01:24
Macerit really sucks the battery dry01:24
DocScrutinizerRobot101: suppress keep-alives? how's that?01:24
Robot101DocScrutinizer: there's a heartbeat daemon, and an iptables module which queues up TCP keepalives, and releases them when the daemon says so01:25
DocScrutinizeror are you talking about that bundling of activities?01:25
DocScrutinizeryeah01:25
ShadowJKtcp keepalives are pretty insignificant compared to IM protocol keepalives :-)01:25
Robot101other stuff that sends connection-level keepalives including SIP and XMPP connect to the same daemon01:25
Robot101and only send them out when the timeouts go, or something else is using the connection01:25
Robot101so they all skip to the same beat, and only wake up the device & antenna if the connections need to be kept alive01:26
DocScrutinizeryes, I know about that01:26
Robot101skype has no such thing, it makes 10s of TCP connections and talks crap over them all all the time01:26
Robot101and wakes up almost constantly01:26
Robot101kiss your battery goodbye :P01:26
DocScrutinizer"suppressing keep-alives" somewhat sounded strange to me though, I probably misunderstood it01:27
ShadowJKI've only seen one tcp connection from skype, and yeah it does use power :-)01:27
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DocScrutinizeralso all that doesn't really help for curing bad efects of random inbound pings01:27
DocScrutinizerwhich you get a lot for skype/IM aiui01:28
DocScrutinizerfor inbound you'd need a proxy doing that buffering/bundling for you01:29
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DocScrutinizeriirc ShadowJK implemented sth along that line for IRC01:30
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DocScrutinizertime for 12648430   ☕01:31
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DocScrutinizerRobot101: there's a problem with telepathy-sofiaSIP, contacts, and dialer. I got an account at sipgate.de, a german SIP provider. It has an associated landline number. Inbound call from e.g landline "+49 911 123456" are signalled and logged as origin:"SIP:0911123456@sipgate.de". This doesn't match to any contact that has tel:"0911123456" nor to "+49911123456". My question: is there a concept in telepathy to deal with this?01:38
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Robot101alas no, the address book code in the N900 has special-cases for doing suffix lookups on incoming PSTN calls, but the same isn't true of SIP URIs01:40
Robot101it would need to have some heuristic to decompose them to pull out a telephone number01:40
Robot101but it's always going to be a kinda lame hack01:40
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DocScrutinizerwell, in twinklephone there's an option to check for "...;call=tel" parameter and in that case discard the domain part and display the user part as a plain simple phonenumber. Service "tel:" in any SIP addr should get handled same way. But yeah, basically I agree there has to be heuristics to deal with that, as there seems to be no consistent standard how carriers handle signalling of inbound calls via PSTN gateway01:55
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Robot101aha, call=tel sounds useful01:56
Robot101want to send a wishlist bug to telepathy-rakia and say "expose tel: and ;call=tel numbers through a different namespace so that UIs can apply PSTN heuristics"?01:56
DocScrutinizerso maybe sofiaSIP might learn to callback a hook to arbitrary scripts that act as a (unix) filter converting stdin sip:0911123456 to stdout 0911123456, and then sofiaSIP would use that cooked addr for further processing of the inbound call01:57
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Robot101that seems... er... unlikely :P01:58
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DocScrutinizer(want to send...) nah, sorry. I got nfi how telepathy works, and what to implement where to fix/augment things and who's the dude to talk to about it.01:59
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DocScrutinizeri.e. I don't even know rakia, never heard of it/him/her(?)02:00
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Robot101#telepathy is a good starting point02:01
Robot101tp-rakia is the new name for tp-sofiasip02:01
Robot101mikhailz is the main dev there02:01
Robot101alsuren is also working on some SIP stuff on and off02:01
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DocScrutinizerthanks, but unlikely I want to spend weeks to get knowledge up to a level so I could participate there02:02
Robot101well if you're going to be so obstructive about it, I'll file the (*&!098 bug :P02:03
DocScrutinizer:-D02:03
* Arkenoi thinks telephony providers that present caller id in stupid "local" format should be burned.02:04
Robot101DocScrutinizer: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3543702:05
povbotBug 35437: was not found.02:05
Robot101DocScrutinizer: feel free to add yourself on CC :P02:05
DocScrutinizerthanks02:06
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e-yeshi all02:14
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e-yesanyone familiar with tvout/overlay  around here?02:14
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DocScrutinizere-yes: shoot02:37
DocScrutinizer~ask02:37
infobotQuestions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic.  Don't ask if you can ask a question first.  Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them.  Better questions more frequently yield better answers.  We are all here voluntarily or against our will.02:37
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e-yesDocScrutinizer, is it possible switch output lcd->tv (and back) without X server? (I mean something simple like shellscript)02:42
DocScrutinizerRobot101: ( address book code in the N900 has special-cases for... ) There's a checkmark box on SIP accounts in fremantle "[X] use this account for PSTN" (OWTTE). Seems to me it should work both directions, i.e. handle inbound addr from that account in a f'() way of what it does for dialing PSTN number outbound via that account02:43
SpeedEvilWithout X server, with the default kernel, you get a reboot02:44
SpeedEvile-yes: what are you trying to do?02:44
Robot101DocScrutinizer: yeah - it doesn't :P02:45
DocScrutinizere-yes: TVout is via a dedicated framebuffer that just happens to (usually) have same content like the one used for LCD, afaik02:45
e-yesi have process that open framebuffer02:45
e-yestrying to switch (the same) framebuffer to tvout02:46
BCMMi'd assumed it was able to capture video overlays like some desktop graphics cards02:46
DocScrutinizere-yes: i am no expert for that, but would assume you can't simply switch the LCD framebuffer to output to AVout02:47
DocScrutinizerafaik they have significantly differing properties, regarding resolution, framerate, whatnot else02:48
BCMM57.2Hz? wtf?02:49
BCMM(from xrandr, run using ssh -X to a normal linux machine that actually has the xrandr command)02:50
BCMMis that really the refresh rate? why?02:51
e-yesBCMM, why not?02:52
BCMMit's a rather unusual choice...02:53
e-yesenought for nonflicker on lcd02:53
BCMMi'm wondering if there's a specific reason for that choice is all02:53
e-yessome DMA limitations? LVDS bandwidth limit?02:54
GeneralAntillesBaseball's back.02:56
GeneralAntillesI can be happy again.02:56
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GeneralAntillesIs there any good method for imaging both the rootfs and the emmc to clone a device?02:59
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lcukDocScrutinizer, e-yes : observation:  tv out normally outputs the translated x11 RGB buffer (how it does it, IDK - call it magic) but if you open a YUV overlay, that is output instead.03:02
lcukfor as long as the YUV overlay is in effect, that is what is sent to the tvout03:02
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lcuknormally, maemo video player stops the YUV overlay when you pan to dashboard, and tvout resumes showing the x11 content03:03
nox-YUV overlay == using xv?03:03
lcukyes03:03
nox-ah03:03
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: (clone) I think .tgz images created by backupmenu should suffice03:03
lcukbut it is entirely feasible (and played with quite a lot) that you can continue playing YUV overlay content whilst you have entirely different data on the X11 RGB03:04
e-yeslcuk, thx. looks like so, I'm googling OMAP/DSS now:)03:04
DocScrutinizerlcuk: (normally video player stops...) yes, a very annoying property03:04
lcukDocScrutinizer, stops for a different reason03:05
lcukthe YUV layer is not composited ;)03:05
lcukso you end up seeing a postage stamp window into the whole movie03:05
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: nah, I'd prefer media player to contine playback movie via AVout, even while I'm checking email on N90003:06
DocScrutinizer(you can continue playing YUV overlay content whilst you have entirely different data on the X11 RGB)03:07
lcukyes03:07
lcukI know however the majority use case is not tvout03:07
lcukso the YUV layer gets stopped for that03:07
DocScrutinizertbh that's a design flaw - there had to be a config feature or menu setup entry03:07
lcukI think it is overlooked03:08
DocScrutinizerof course03:08
DocScrutinizerlike so many others03:08
lcukI thought about using a BT keyboard and mouse to be honest03:08
DocScrutinizere.g audio playback via AV to home stereo, where you for sure don't want ts clicks and ringtones via AV03:08
nox-and btw did i get that right, n900 does something like vaapi/vdpau too?03:09
* jonwil is about ready to give up hope of seeing anything from Nokia that will benefit Maemo, despite https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11128#c803:09
povbotBug 11128: Opening the source for Sharing services framework03:09
DocScrutinizerjonwil: poke Jaffa about state of negotiations03:09
* lcuk recognises that bug03:09
lcuk*grin*03:10
ShadowJKnox-, well... if you push something through gstreamer it might go through the hardware decoded path, or fail03:10
ShadowJKnox-, it's something like, um, openmax..03:10
ShadowJKor openil03:10
ShadowJKwhatever03:10
ShadowJKat the end of gstreamer03:10
nox-but its also gpu offloading?03:11
nox-or is that the dsp?03:11
ShadowJKGPU is worthless for video.03:11
* nox- just curious cause i had some `fun' with vdpau/vaapi and libxine/vdr...03:11
nox-so its the dsp that does it?03:12
ShadowJK(Yeah on nvidia desktops chips more capable than the low-end ones, there are enough shader units that they actually decode video with sheer bruteforce)03:12
ShadowJKYes.03:12
nox-ok03:12
ShadowJKAnd the result is fed to DSS2 which does the colourspace transform and scaling03:13
nox-DSS2?03:13
lcukthere is also the IVA(2) which as far as I know is a whole core like the DSP but essential unused03:13
ShadowJKIVA is used03:13
nox-heh03:13
lcukShadowJK, the IVA is meant to do that work03:13
lcukahh03:13
ShadowJKBut it's undocumented03:14
lcukit does YUV<->RGB too03:14
lcukShadowJK, used by what?03:14
ShadowJKWhen you play h264 movie03:14
jonwilWhen is the best time to catch Jaffa?03:14
lcukhow would a mere mortal use it03:14
ShadowJKlcuk, one wouldn't03:14
lcukjonwil, just after it falls from the tree.03:15
e-yesfor camera resizer iirc03:15
ShadowJKUnless you go through mafw or gstreamer03:15
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lcukShadowJK, how does gstreamer use it?03:15
ShadowJKthe closed dsp blobs03:15
lcukis it just a coprocessor (like old amiga blitter) or does it have its own kernel and extra stuff (like the DSP)03:15
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* SpeedEvil tries to remember how many cores he counted in the n900.03:16
ShadowJKBasically, IVA is this unit full of useful algorithms common to most video formats, and it's accessible from the DSP. The "DSP Codecs" in fact access IVA for the heavy lifting03:16
SpeedEvilI think I got up to a dozen once.03:16
lcuk403:16
DocScrutinizer1103:16
lcuk1 cpu, 1 powervr, 1 dsp, 1 iva03:16
DocScrutinizer;-D03:16
SpeedEvilBluetooth, wlan, modem (2), ...03:16
ShadowJKalso, neon runs almost like a coprocessor too :)03:16
lcukShadowJK, those are not compute cores in the same sense03:17
lcukmy understanding was the others mentioned are some kind of mutated arm03:17
ZogG_wover9000 cores03:17
derfThe DSP is nothing like an ARM.03:17
ShadowJKI would guess that DSS2 is Display SubSystem version 2. It would do scaling and colourspace transform, I'd think.03:17
* lcuk is wrong then03:17
ZogG_wleg is not like an arm03:17
lcukand you would know derf, thanks \o03:17
DocScrutinizerthe DSP is, well, a DSP03:18
* ZogG_w is bored03:18
ShadowJKif DSP codecs was outputting RGB, I think you could composite it instead of going through Xv... If GPU/SGX has enough bandwidth for 800x480 RGB textures at 30fps, that is03:18
derfIt's VLIW capable of dispatching 8 instructions/clock (of various types, not arbitrarily), with 64 32-bit registers.03:19
ShadowJKSo like a Transmeta P4 :-(03:19
ShadowJK(yeah I intentionally mixed metaphors)03:19
derfYeah, somewhat.03:19
derfExcept it runs off 2W of power going full bore.03:20
derf(and is considered a power hog in embedded circles for using that much)03:20
SpeedEvilI doubt the DSP uses 2W full-bore.03:20
SpeedEvil(alone)03:20
DocScrutinizerC64x+™ DSP and Video Accelerators (3525/3530 only)03:20
DocScrutinizerhttp://focus.ti.com/lit/sg/sprt537a/sprt537a.pdf03:20
lcukShadowJK, problem is not explicit to textures03:20
lcukthe XV mode runs in arbritary resolution03:21
lcukso you send video through at 400*240 and it does not waste bandwidth using all 800*48003:21
lcukas would be currently required in RGB03:21
DocScrutinizerOMAP35x devices integrate the superscalar Cortex-A8 core and TI’s TMS320C64x+™ DSP into four applications processors: OMAP3503, OMAP3515, OMAP3525 and OMAP3530.03:22
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lcukShadowJK, it *might* be feasible to do it of course, but it would be such a waste of power and bandwidth03:22
ShadowJKlcuk, sure, but considering SGX is a 3D GPU, you'd assume it could stretch at 400x240 texture to 800x480 too03:23
ShadowJKYeah definitely03:23
blizzowI installed the telnet client today and suddenly, the SMS application does not display contact information.  Anyone know what might be going on here?  I've rebooted a couple of times and that has not helped.03:23
ShadowJKDSS is purpose built, SGX/3D/GPU can theoretically do the same thing but will be much more inefficient at it03:24
lcukis the LCD controller chip inside the omap or like the old n8x0 with an external one03:27
lcuk(was it epson)03:27
ShadowJKYeah it was epson03:27
ShadowJKAnd I think DSS is out LCD controller03:27
derfSpeedEvil: Yeah, I think the DSP by itself may only be 1W. But that's still huge.03:27
ShadowJKour*03:27
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derf... and more than an order of magnitude less than a P4 (or a Transmeta CPU).03:28
lcukShadowJK, also, by converting to 16but RGB you lose more definition03:28
lcukand people would complain of banding in movies :P03:28
ShadowJKderf, get some real world power consumption readings of playing video, it's about 1W *total* :-)03:28
lcukbit03:28
derflcuk: That's what dithering is for.03:28
lcukderf, YUV does not require dithering03:28
derfSure it does. It's just dithering in hardware.03:29
lcukand it is lower ba ndwith03:29
derfOr if it isn't, it's still got banding.03:29
SpeedEvilderf: yeah03:29
lcukit sends data down the wire as far as it can in 24b03:29
lcukthe lcd itself might only be 18bit or whatever they are03:30
jonwilJaffa: ping03:30
derfYou mean in 12b.03:30
derfOr does it run at 4:2:2?03:30
SpeedEvilcan someone remind me of the right way to reboot the DSP if it's doing the 'I can't play any video at all' thingy?03:31
lcuk42203:31
derfOkay, then 16b.03:31
lcukSpeedEvil, power button03:31
SpeedEvillcuk: I was assuming that was the improper way.03:31
lcukderf, no 8 bit grey, + 8 bit U + 8 bit V03:31
derfSpeedEvil: stop dsp/start dsp?03:32
derflcuk: But you don't have 8 bits of U and V per pixel.03:32
lcuksure you do03:32
SpeedEvilArgh.03:33
derfNot if you're using 4:2:2 subsampling, you don't.03:33
SpeedEvilIt's not that - it's that BBC have changed something.03:33
lcuk420*240 is true colour03:33
derf...03:33
lcukit is full colour, low resolution03:33
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lcukderf that is the normal mode of videos since forever, and jpegs too03:35
derfNo, most vide is 4:2:0. But no one calls it 24bpp, either.03:35
derf*video03:35
derfYUV also has about 1/4 the gamut of RGB.03:37
SpeedEvil800mW - playing video at low volume over speakers, with LCD at minimum brightrness03:37
derf(well, more accurately, you lose about 2 bits in the conversion process)03:38
SpeedEvil(1.2W with mplayer)03:39
SpeedEvilAlso - meh. I now need to work ourt how to transcode videos that used to play fine.03:40
lcukderf, since the lcd cannot display 24bit anyway, that is not too bad03:40
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derfSure. I'm just telling you that claiming it's "TrueColor" is a lie.03:41
DocScrutinizerlcd is pretty bad at BPP03:41
derfThey make 30-bit panels.03:41
DocScrutinizerthey make. yeah. The small embedded LCDs though are 12..16bpp03:42
lcukderf, roger03:42
derfYeah. 30-bit panels aren't cheap.03:42
* lcuk just never notices banding 03:42
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DocScrutinizerseems N900 LCD is 15 or 16, while I suspect AV fb is like 1203:43
DocScrutinizerI guess this LCD is a 5/6/503:44
userThe N950 maybe has it.03:47
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DocScrutinizeruser: ???03:50
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userA bether screen and hdmi out.03:51
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SpeedEvilI'venever had a real issue with LCD colour gamut.03:52
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SpeedEvilAnd I want VGA out!03:52
SpeedEvil:)03:52
SpeedEvilHDMI is quite a large plug03:52
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DocScrutinizercomponent on RCA ;-P03:52
DocScrutinizerSCART03:53
SpeedEvilSCART would just about fit along the long edge.03:53
lcukDocScrutinizer, sod that, can we have a demodulator that plugs in the back03:53
lcukAmiga A500 style03:53
SpeedEvilI was actually looking to make a TV modulator for n900.03:54
SpeedEvilBut all the nice chips for it were EOL'd03:54
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SpeedEvilAlso analog TV is getting turned off. Here it's going away in June/July.03:54
DocScrutinizerDVBT-TX it's then03:55
DocScrutinizerno plug \o/03:55
DocScrutinizerif we can do FMTX so why we can't do DVBT-TX03:56
DocScrutinizerthat's actually a good use made of DSP ;-P03:57
SpeedEvildvb-tx would be fun.03:58
DocScrutinizeryeah, but please with >>5nW03:59
DocScrutinizerI don't want to use a remote to control the N9N+ sitting next to TV's antenna receptacle04:00
DocScrutinizerat very least a 5m should be design goal04:00
DocScrutinizergiven the digital nature of DVBT there's little to no concern about long range interference with public broadcast DVBT04:01
SpeedEvilMuch less.04:01
SpeedEvilThe rationale for interference on FM is valid.04:02
DocScrutinizeryeah, somewhat04:02
SpeedEvilIt takes a really teeny amount of power to disrupt a signal that's at the edge of coverage, and make it much worse.04:02
DocScrutinizerthough I don't give a f...art04:02
SpeedEvilDVB-T - less so.04:02
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DocScrutinizerwhen it starts that my torch flashlight has stronger EMI than the FM-TX of my N900, then it's at edge of trifle04:04
SpeedEvilyeah04:04
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SpeedEvilAnyone with a video encoding clue? ffmpeg says of the input stream -04:14
SpeedEvil   Stream #0.0(und): Video: h264 (Main), yuv420p, 640x360 [PAR 90:90 DAR 16:9], 698 kb/s, 25 fps, 25 tbr, 25 tbn, 50 tbc04:14
SpeedEvilI thought the n900 could do h26404:14
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lcukDocScrutinizer, did you happen to see this earlier: http://pastebin.com/RTP1bUDT04:24
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: no. I admit I'm scratching my head trying to figure what that means04:27
lcukDocScrutinizer, me too04:27
lcukit surprised me immensely04:27
lcuksince world + dog says that file system is slower on meego04:28
lcukand that is the main difference I think04:28
lcukI doubt the compiler itself gained 50% optimisations04:28
lcukand the variations on maemo side are me trying different combinations of partitions to store onto04:30
DocScrutinizerI neither understand completely what's written there, nor do I think it's giving a good proof of anything, without proper explanation of the whole setup and tests done04:30
lcuksure, it is certianly not scientific04:30
lcukI just got build-essential + the -dev libs required and ran make04:31
lcukon both maemo and meego04:31
* lcuk should make a set of liq* specific tests :)04:32
DocScrutinizerhmm, seems to me a more standardized testbed would help a lot. Like e.g. use the absolutely identical source that uses the identical includes etc04:32
lcukit was identical source04:32
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lcukbut obviously using (maemo|meego) compiler and headers04:33
DocScrutinizeryet way too complex to assure the same process taking place, regarding all the includes which might differ significantly between OS04:33
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lcukyes DocScrutinizer04:34
ShadowJKUh, who the hell says MeeGo filesystem is slower?04:35
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DocScrutinizersame who tell eMMC is slower than NAND I guess04:35
ShadowJKI think Maemo had the advantage here anyway, because default Maemo setup has stuff on NAND, offloading emmc somewhat.04:36
ShadowJKFor comparative testing you'd have to have both Maemo and MeeGo running from the same devices04:37
DocScrutinizerthis comparision has way too many unknowns you'd need to define to make the whole thing a somewhat meaningful statement about anything04:37
ShadowJKBut still, I assume his setup was slanted in favour of Maemo, which makes brtfs' win all the more impressive :-)04:37
lcukShadowJK, it was from the same device04:38
lcukI booted meego, and just happened to time a build04:38
lcukthen got curious and booted same device to maemo04:38
lcukand repeated04:38
ShadowJKSo you've got Maemo running on MicroSD then?04:38
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lcukShadowJK, no04:39
lcuknormal system04:39
ShadowJKThis is what I meant04:39
ShadowJKI didn't mean device as in "N900"04:39
ShadowJKbut device as in NAND, emmc, microsd04:39
DocScrutinizerI'd use a 10liner shellscript to mkdir;cp $fn N$fn; fn=$Nfn04:39
lcukShadowJK, the problem is that meego slow bootup speed has been attributed to the filesystem04:40
DocScrutinizerfor {fn=2000; fn>0; fn--)04:40
DocScrutinizersth along that line04:40
ShadowJKlcuk, so does it run faster with ext3?04:40
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: why 10?04:40
lcukwhat confused me was just that building this library on meego I was expecting it to be slower04:40
DocScrutinizerwell, you can pack everything into one line, always04:41
luke-jrfor i in {10..1}; let j=i+1; mv $i $j; done04:41
lcukI don't know why04:41
lcukbut on meego it ran like shit off a shovel04:41
lcukand meego has cpu freq at 500mhz04:41
lcukit SHOULD be slower04:41
lcuk(I am really pleased it is not, but that is beside the point)04:42
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ShadowJKlcuk, in reality I think the problem is that neither ext3 nor btrfs are tuned for flash based storage in any way (well btrfs somewhat, but it's mostly for SSD type storage, which is probably more harmful than useful for flash), and Maemo only accidentally rather than by design avoids driving the emmc/microsd into utter slowass operation.. Actually under Maemo you can hit the slow-as-molasses situations too by trying to extract easy-debian, for example..04:42
lcukShadowJK, yes, I use n900 itself to extract meego images using dd04:43
* SpeedEvil wonders if the SD committe will do something useful and define TRIM04:43
lcukand that operation takes just under an hour04:43
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, trim is kinda useless when most controllers (intra-SD ones) are so braindead they wouldn't have one fucking clue what to do with trim04:43
SpeedEvilShadowJK: I am unsure. I've read conflicting things about SD controllers.04:44
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, well it's the software on them that makes the difference, and most of it is braindead04:44
SpeedEvilThey seem to have at least arm cortex class CPU on them according to reports I've seen.04:44
ShadowJKexcept maybe sandisk, but sandisk has been saying "Our ExtremeFFS technology kicks ass" for years, it's just that they're trying to monetize it so hard that they've actually sold about 0 copies of it so far, when it really should be sitting in every SD card they're selling...04:45
SpeedEvilIn practice - for many apps - flash smartness is quite unimportant.04:46
ShadowJKNot that I'm saying sandisk cards are shit, they're about 5 magnitudes of performance better than Kingston, but it could be so much better if the industry tried to get their shit together.04:46
SpeedEvilIt doesn't help noticably for recording large contiguous files04:46
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, if you consider one single app in isolation, sure, it's extremely unimportant04:47
SpeedEvilFor OS use, it's not so great.04:47
ShadowJKBut you've got like 100 processes running, and each one creates IO load :-)04:47
ShadowJKwhether they intend to or not04:47
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* SpeedEvil mehs.04:47
SpeedEvilI should really have gotten on with that swap lineariser idea.04:48
ShadowJK:-)04:48
SpeedEvilnbd client, that fakes a block device on a file.04:48
ShadowJKhttps://wiki.linaro.org/WorkingGroups/KernelConsolidation/Projects/FlashDeviceMapper :-)04:49
ShadowJKI have no clue who linaro is, what they do, but they seem to know more about flash, and trying to do something about it, than companies that have been trying to use flash for years...04:49
SpeedEvilSort-of.04:50
SpeedEvilBut not quite.04:50
ShadowJKThat nokia hacked N900 kernel is somewhat swap-linear actually :-)04:50
SpeedEvilBasically, for swap, for obvious reasons, you can drop the whole persistant block mapping shit.04:50
ShadowJKYeah04:51
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SpeedEvilWhich does wonders for complexity.04:51
DocScrutinizerlcuk: see, meego might use different fs tuning settings (see swappolube et al)04:51
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SpeedEvilAlso 'Finally, the superblock records its own age as an increasing 32 bit number, and a checksum. '04:51
ShadowJKN900 kernel keeps track of "biggest free area", and writes sequentially there, and when exhausted, jumps to next "biggest free are". As time goes on, these free areas shrink to stupidly small in size, and you hit the classic "my device suddenly feels slower after 2-3 days uptime, what's going on?"04:51
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SpeedEvilIdeally, you don't want to do that, if you can avoid it, as you want to not ensure 100% of the time (well - 50%) incrementing the superblock counter will require a block erase04:52
ShadowJKSwappolube people are kinda funny. They're on the extremes of "maximum interactivity, minimum throughput", and "maximum throughput, minimum interactivity", and randomly flip parameters between the two extremes :D04:52
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SpeedEvilI have wondered about truly stupid hacks.04:53
SpeedEvil500 8M swapfiles04:53
SpeedEviland you swapoff as each one fills.04:54
lcukDocScrutinizer, possibly, either way, pleasantly surprised and given urge to find out more04:54
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ebzzryHi! Can /usr/lib/microb-engine/libxul.so be safely moved (on a running system) to somewhere, then have that path symlink to the new path?04:54
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, from a performance point of view, the swap storage becomes slow long before it's "filled"04:54
SpeedEvilstop microb04:54
SpeedEvilIIRC04:54
ShadowJK"The superblock is stored in first allocation group on the medium, but may be at changing addresses within the allocation group. Only the superblock with the highest version number and a valid checksum gets used when mounting the medium. "04:54
ebzzrystop it first? Then move it then start it again?04:54
SpeedEvilShadowJK: By filled, I mean that it has completed a linear write04:55
SpeedEvilebzzry: yes04:55
ShadowJKThis is kinda clever actually. Some cards have extra optimization for the first allocation group :-)04:55
ebzzryThanks. Since we're on that, what other things are stoppable?04:55
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DocScrutinizerebzzry: risk of bootloop04:56
SpeedEvilyeah04:56
ebzzryDocScrutinizer: Uh oh.04:56
SpeedEviloh - and killall browser 3 times, seperated by 20s should kill browser04:57
ebzzryHow high is the risk?04:57
SpeedEvilBetween 0 and 104:57
lcukebzzry, what are you muching about for?04:57
DocScrutinizerebzzry: unclear04:57
ebzzryI'm trying to free rootfs space.04:57
SpeedEvilA fair fraction of the running processes have watchdogs.04:58
SpeedEvilWhy?04:58
ebzzryI almost ran out of it.04:58
lcukebzzry, backup your data now.04:58
lcukDocScrutinizer is right ;)04:58
lcukthen if you do move the wrong thing04:58
lcukyou can restore it :)04:59
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ebzzryYa. I did. Fortunately I do routine backups.04:59
ebzzryDoes GCC touch rootfs?04:59
ebzzryIf yes, approximately how much?04:59
lcukyes, dev tools are not optified04:59
lcuklarge04:59
lcukbuild-essential is 70mb I believe05:00
ebzzryOhh05:00
lcukit has been historically one of the largest packagegroups to eat it and not be shouted at because it is not designed for on device use05:00
ebzzryBut then I need gcc because I need bigloo/chicken.05:01
SpeedEvilDOING IT WRONG.05:01
SpeedEvilcp / to /home/user/copy05:01
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SpeedEvilcd /home/user/copy;chroot . bash05:01
lcukebzzry, cat /etc/maemo-optify-auto-opt.conf05:02
SpeedEvilapt-get install gcc05:02
ebzzryhmm.05:02
lcuki normally add things like /usr/include in there05:02
ebzzryLet me try that.05:02
lcukuse the example command it will show space05:02
lcukadding a line into that file and rebooting will try to optify it05:03
SpeedEvilThat way you have no concerns about space on /05:03
SpeedEvilAnd borking your system by installing wierd shit.05:03
lcukyou have backups and your own confidence of what to change though.05:03
SpeedEvilAnd no concerns about backups or anything.05:03
ebzzryOK. Got that.05:03
lcukSpeedEvil, can that chroot be stored on /home/user/MyDocs?05:03
SpeedEvillcuk: no05:03
lcukshame05:03
SpeedEvillcuk: vfat and shizzle.05:03
SpeedEvilI resized mydocs to 4G though05:04
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lcukebzzry, http://maemo.gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify-boottime/blobs/master/README05:05
DocScrutinizerlcuk: I gather maemo-optify-auto-opt.conf as well can cause bootloop, no?05:05
ebzzrylcuk: copy05:06
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lcukDocScrutinizer, it like any other file system operation can be broken by misconfiguration and editing05:06
lcukit requires root and ebzzry is already doing the same process by hand05:06
DocScrutinizerI meant like optifying /usr05:06
lcukthese scripts just try best to do it and document as much as possible05:07
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lcukwe never tested that far05:07
lcukI shall tell you now, hold on05:07
lcukmmm I will do /usr/share actually first ;)05:08
ebzzry(Side note: It's just now that I've been to maemo.gitorious.org, and gah, it's very difficult to read the gray text! y u no black?)05:08
lcukhttp://maemo.gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify-boottime/blobs/raw/master/README05:09
ebzzryThanks, even it tells my browser to store it locally.05:11
ebzzryBy the way, is moving /opt/maemo to /media/mmc1/*somewhere*, then have a symlink, safe?05:11
ebzzry(Why do I want to do that? Because I'm running out of optfs space)05:11
lcukebzzry, lol05:12
lcukwhat have you got installed?05:12
lcuksounds like a phat maemo system05:12
ebzzryNot that much actually, but I think I have plenty in ~/05:12
ebzzryI also have emacs which weighs in almost 100MB05:12
lcukI used to have to clear out loads from /05:12
lcukthat was where the optify-boottime script came from05:13
lcukDocScrutinizer, it is booting with /usr/share only05:13
DocScrutinizerlcuk: mount rootfs atime; bindmount a copy of /usr (/opt/usr) ove /usr when mounting all the /opt rocks. have a *hard*link to /usr and later check that /usrTOO which files got touched during boot05:13
lcukand it is unwinding the filesystem05:13
ebzzryI even moved ~/.cache, ~/.thumbnails, and ~/.modest to to /media/mmc1 (ext2), but then I was having issues when I plug the device to a host machine: I had to kill the processes using those directories.05:14
lcukit reached a desktop05:14
lcukbut themes are not there05:14
DocScrutinizersanitize those to live in /* rather than /usr/*05:14
lcukhand on, just curing it05:14
ebzzryI digressed. Back to my question: is moving /opt/maemo to /media/mmc1/*somewhere*, then have a symlink, safe?05:14
ShadowJKI dont think so05:15
DocScrutinizerunclear05:15
ShadowJKthemes and fonts are there...05:15
DocScrutinizerprolly not05:15
ShadowJKand microsd gets mounted after UI is started, so......05:15
ebzzryWhat gets mounted first? /media/mmc1 or /opt?05:15
DocScrutinizer-->bootloop05:15
ebzzryAh, that answers it then.05:15
ebzzryNot good.05:15
ebzzryDoes the external card get mounted last?05:15
DocScrutinizeraah wait, opt. that's no diff to mmc105:16
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DocScrutinizerebzzry: aiui both get mounted ~same moment05:17
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ebzzryDocScrutinizer: the same?05:17
ebzzryaround the same05:17
ShadowJKI think mmc1 gets mounted long after UI has started... Atleast with my ext3 mmc1 card I get the "corrupted mmc" message long after UI has started :-)05:17
ebzzryBut technically, when looking at the mount scripts, what gets mounted first?05:18
DocScrutinizerbut why would you want to move things from /opt to uSD?05:18
ebzzryBecause I have cowabunga stuff in /opt, like Emacs (~90MB) and CCL (~90MB), too.05:18
SpeedEvilMake /home bigger then05:19
DocScrutinizerso what?05:19
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DocScrutinizeryeah05:19
ebzzryso what? <- In prepartion of lcuk's stuff?05:19
DocScrutinizerif 2GB is too small, resize it05:20
ebzzryOK.05:20
ShadowJKI'd look at moving emacs to microsd, because atleast emacs isn't boot critical05:20
ebzzryWee! I'd like to do that with /opt/maemo/usr/share/texmf* too!05:21
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lcukI suppse this is where btrfs (or the idea of it is cool05:25
lcukjust being able to insert a new partition to grow the filesystem05:25
jonwilJaffa: ping05:26
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ebzzryI forgot the name of the project, but treating directories like partitions has plenty of potentials. The horrors of creating/deleting a directory tree with thousands of small files is unforgettable. When it behaves like a partition, we can just have a: "create_new_fs <directory>"05:27
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bennymI need help setting up USB networking between an N900 and a Windows computer. http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking#Starting_USB_network_mode_with_Windows05:30
bennymThat page says "MADDE ... not required ... just files maemo_usbnet.inf and maemo_usbnet.cat". Where can I get those files and what do I do with them?05:31
bennymI don't have the bandwidth to download all of MADDE05:31
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: I thought that's called LVM05:35
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jonwilso no-one knows what time of the day is the best time to catch Jaffa online?05:38
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ShadowJKbtrfs takes llvm and raid into the filesystem itself05:43
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DocScrutinizerjonwil: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/search?q=jaffa+has+joined05:51
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MaKapackages in repos appear smaller in size than they once appeared;much smaller that even optification could justify..06:03
MaKaany thoughts on it?06:03
MaKalike FM radio receiver was once 6.6 MB seems now to be just 867kb06:03
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MaKaand Advanced power monitor is incredibly small-just 14 kb06:04
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DocScrutinizerMaKa: according to what?06:08
DocScrutinizerMaKa: I guess you're talking about size needed to install, and that's probably reported including all the dependencies06:09
DocScrutinizeron a second install, all the dependencies are already there so don't need any 'new' space06:09
MaKaoh,Thanks for the clarification DocScrutinizer06:10
MaKaBut i never got those two apps work at the second install.06:10
MaKanever after that.06:10
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MaKaBut i am avtually not talking about the size needed to install.06:11
MaKai am talking about the size of the file that is to be downloaded.06:11
DocScrutinizerhmm, I recall a few days ago I tried to install FM radio while on a walk. It failed, and then I noticed it already been installed, nevertheless it tried to install again06:12
MaKahttp://www.allaboutmeego.com/features/item/How_to_unlock_the_FM_radio_on_the_Nokia_N900.php06:13
DocScrutinizerso maybe you're actually on something there06:13
MaKathis link shows the size of the app to be 6.6mb06:13
MaKabut the repos give me only 869 kb. '06:14
DocScrutinizerwhere?06:14
MaKaBut i am trying to install this after uninstalling DocScrutinizer06:14
cehtehnon stripped?06:15
MaKaSo i think this is not trying to install which is already installed.06:15
MaKawhen i use apt-get, only some 869kn is downloaded,06:15
MaKa*kb06:15
DocScrutinizerhmm, I can't find any useful info on the link you gave above06:16
DocScrutinizerand also I suggest to generally use HAM instead of apt-get06:16
MaKadidn't you check the video on that link?06:16
DocScrutinizermeh, video06:16
DocScrutinizerthis video shows some 3rd hand info of maybe decades ago06:17
DocScrutinizerworthless06:17
MaKaoh,okay.06:17
MaKa:P06:17
MaKathen my new error now after using HAM is Error: cannot load radio driver module,06:18
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DocScrutinizerI'm fed up with that site when I read "secret radio that's not in the specs"06:18
MaKaYeah which sounds too much of a lie and exaggeration06:19
DocScrutinizerdamn, it's even written on the box of N90006:19
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MaKaDocScrutinizer: check this thread http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=5571006:20
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DocScrutinizercheck for what?06:20
DocScrutinizersee if it's entertaining?06:20
MaKawill this be possible?06:21
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DocScrutinizer(btw sorry, the box writing only mentions the FMTX, not the FMRX)06:21
DocScrutinizerpossible that a tmo thread is entertaining? nah, almost impossible06:22
DocScrutinizer;-D06:22
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MaKa_someone has said there they rectified this on downgrading power-kernel06:24
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MaKa_not entertaining,but informative?06:24
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DocScrutinizerI'm not regularly going to check random stuff of unspecified topic, to see if it might contain useful info06:28
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DocScrutinizersee, I can't follow 700 other people and check everything they find interesting for one reason or another, just to see if it actually is or not06:30
DocScrutinizerif you want my feedback, you have to break it down for me so I might decide in advance if it's worth my time06:31
MaKa_Yeah i understand you DocScrutinizer .06:32
MaKa_And sorry for that annoying video link06:32
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deltHello06:48
deltuh, quick question... when the n810 is plugged to a PC's usb port, does it STILL use/drain the battery?06:48
deltanyway, shitting up all my ba...uh backing up all my sh...uh nm06:51
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chxhm, the n810 had a separate charger  port didnt it06:53
DocScrutinizerdelt: good question, lemme check that06:53
DocScrutinizerhmm, yup. Definitely my N810 doesn't take power from USB, so obviously needs battery (and/or power plug) to work06:54
DocScrutinizerFFS, tepco raised dosage limt to 150mSv for their at-site workers06:57
userIs that good or bad?06:57
DocScrutinizernow it starts getting nasty, while until now it's been more a sissi thing with radiation in the uSv/h06:57
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someoneelseDocScrutinizer: Do you disagree with them doing so?06:59
DocScrutinizerlemme put it this way: 1000mSv are really something you'll notice quite immediately06:59
someoneelseI would belive it is more important to limit the radiation than to loose a few workers.06:59
someoneelseYou said 150mSv06:59
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someoneelse6000 mSv will kill most people witin a month07:00
someoneelseIf you get it at once07:00
DocScrutinizerwithin hours07:00
chxyes what it matters how long you are exposed07:00
DocScrutinizerchx: well, similar to sunburn, yes07:01
someoneelseIf I get exposed to 6000mSv in 100 years I would probably be OK.07:01
someoneelseIt is a diffrence between showering and drowning.07:01
DocScrutinizerot doesn't matter if you catch that dosage during one second or one day, but you might (and will) see less severe effects when distributed over 10 days07:02
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someoneelseWhat choice do they have? If they let it be, more people will die from cancer later.07:04
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DocScrutinizersure. Just a significant change in their published notion about the event. But meh, I heard yesterday tepco asked the prime minister to allow they abandon the whole fucku-I as they felt like not getting anything done anymore. I'd not like to know what they got told07:07
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deltDocScrutinizer: thanks07:08
DocScrutinizeryw07:08
deltuh.... fetching adapter ASAFP :/07:08
DocScrutinizerdelt: btw that's the significan difference when flashing: N8x0 doesn't boot up on plugging in to USB07:09
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DocScrutinizerwhile our NPP crews here, when interviewed, state "Of course I'd stay at site, no matter how dangerous or even fatal. That's my job"07:12
deltheh thanks again for the tip... would have been moderately pissed if it failed at 97% ...!!07:13
DocScrutinizerlol07:13
deltand by "moderately" i mean, CNN would probably invent the term "nukeia"07:14
deltjk =)07:14
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chxso how long before the "Fukushima 50" book hits the stores? a month? even less? movie in two years?07:15
deltso anyway, there's my data travelling from n810 to pc, and back to n810 in gzipped form.... and all is well, seems well =)07:15
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deltdocscruti: thanks07:15
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deltHello, just one more question ....07:17
delt[pts/2][root@deimos]:/media/disk-2# file 2gig.img07:17
delt2gig.img: x86 boot sector; partition 1: ID=0x6, starthead 0, startsector 1, 131071 sectors; partition 2: ID=0x83, starthead 3, startsector 131072, 3530752 sectors; partition 3: ID=0x82, starthead 3, startsector 3661824, 270336 sectors, code offset 0xb807:17
DocScrutinizerheh, you actually met the highlight regex :-)07:17
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deltthis machine has an ARM processor right?07:17
DocScrutinizerDUH! never knew file is that smart07:18
deltso, put simply, why does "file", on the image of my 2gb internal memory, show it as a x86 boot?07:18
DocScrutinizerboot sector, it's not meant to have any code for any particular processor, on N900 at least07:19
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DocScrutinizerMBR07:20
DocScrutinizerit probably has X86 format, at least for the partition table07:20
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chxwont that cause a lot of confusion? isnt the endianness different?07:21
DocScrutinizeruh07:21
DocScrutinizergood question :-D07:21
DocScrutinizerobviously not07:21
deltdocscrutz: first guess.... so that win...ferior systems can use the device?07:21
chxx86 is little, but ARM was always both07:21
chxuh07:22
chxDEbian ARMEL07:22
chxi was obviously not thinking07:22
chxthat el is endian little?07:22
DocScrutinizerARMel07:22
MohammadAGyes07:22
deltwhat the tel07:22
DocScrutinizerendian-little?07:22
chxi am just guessing the endiannes of the N900 :)07:22
MohammadAGwhat el stands for07:22
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chxARM was both since the dawn of tiem but i gues the N900 is little as the x86?07:23
DocScrutinizerarmEL07:23
MohammadAGI thought it was ARMel07:24
deltbzip2'ing image, just to see the resulting filesize07:24
deltINTARM!!07:24
DocScrutinizerjust emphasizing the Endian-Little07:25
deltso yeah, this idea of using the n810's internal 256mb as "backup" boot partition, and the other 2gb one as main ... works quite well!!07:26
deltepsecially with a vfat formatted SD card07:26
deltwell, micro SD / tflash in a minisd adapter, but works like i said, quite well07:27
DocScrutinizercould you postpone your posts until my reconnect happend? ;-D07:27
deltreconnect as in isp?07:27
DocScrutinizeri.e. some ~240s07:27
DocScrutinizeryep07:28
delt4 minutes? well, 3:30something now...?07:28
deltk waiting07:28
MohammadAGTime for IRC ping pong07:28
DocScrutinizerdepending on my RTC it can't be long until07:28
MohammadAGor not, channel's logged, damn!07:29
DocScrutinizersheduled for 6:30 but clock often is fast07:29
DocScrutinizer:-D07:29
MohammadAGsay something when you're disconnected :P07:29
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deltmohammad hahahaha something like "my 71 virgins are great, but one is missing" ?07:30
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deltand "69 of them are male wtf???"07:30
DocScrutinizertoldya, it's a bit early07:30
deltdocscrut: wb07:30
delt01:30 < MohammadAG> say something when you're disconnected :P07:31
delt01:31 < delt> mohammad hahahaha something like "my 71 virgins are great, but one is missing" ?07:31
delt01:31 < delt> and "69 of them are male wtf???"07:31
deltas you see, havent missed much :307:31
DocScrutinizeryeah07:31
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deltrecently i've been going nuts on microSD cards.... *sigh* i HAVE to start putting labels on my sd cards GAAAAAH07:33
DocScrutinizerI wonder how you boot from 2GB on N81007:33
delt/media/disk-* just doesnt cut it, unless i do 'df' to see the size of each mounted fs07:33
deltDocScrutinizer: yeah, was just wondering the name of the command (for the boot loader) ....started with the initials of the fellow who worte it iirc07:34
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DocScrutinizero.O07:35
deltanyway, i can ls -l /media/whatever/bin/ > ~www/miscjunk/somelist.txt or whatever, but that wouldnt be much help i guess07:35
deltpersonally, i wouldnt mind rewriting the boot loader thing myself, so it times out after X seconds instead of waiting forever.....07:36
DocScrutinizers/ls/ln/?07:37
DocScrutinizerstill wondering07:37
deltwas a simple script that used ncurses 'dialog' iirc07:37
DocScrutinizeraaah, maybe something exploiting that preinit hook, like rescueboot07:38
deltquite use^H^H^Hjackass friendly =(07:38
delt=)07:38
MohammadAGdelt, I'm still not sure who came up with that 7* virgin bullshit :P07:38
MohammadAGbut anyway, OT here07:38
DocScrutinizeryeah, iirc we had that on diablo, while it vanished for early fremantle versions?07:38
MohammadAGwhere's dialog on fremantle?07:40
delti thought it was that islam "prophet" who ripped off the first 5-6 books of the Bible and had some "illumination"07:40
deltor was that bouddha (sidharta gutama or something)07:40
MohammadAGwell, no, it wasn't07:40
DocScrutinizerplease no religion topics here07:40
DocScrutinizerI can't comment on those ;-P07:41
deltwell, the founder of islam clearly based himself on Gen... uh ok sorry07:41
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delt<--- stfu :D07:41
deltotoh, beer is good07:41
MohammadAGunrelated to religion, but why would someone even need 71/2 virgins...07:41
deltunrelated to religion, beer is good =)07:42
delt:D07:42
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MohammadAGI'm sure everyone agrees07:42
DocScrutinizermy cDc is not exactly debatable, and also largely unknown a religion ;-D07:42
DocScrutinizerand MohammadAG, quite obviously nobody needs 71 half virgins ;-D07:43
delti was (and would be) very happy with 1, even if she isn't / wasn't technically "virgin" ...07:43
MohammadAGwell, exactly, wtf would you do with 7w07:44
deltso any middle eastern suicide bomber could take away the 71 other ones and i wouldnt gaff07:44
deltok sorry07:44
deltthat was rather offensive, and i aplog*ZAP*07:44
deltok so there was a thunder storm..... how yall doin :D07:46
DocScrutinizerdelt: (beer is good) nah, there's also Heineken, and what's that called? mayer's?07:46
DocScrutinizerMiller's07:46
deltuh.... i like heineken, but if you want to buy it, any store in Canada you go to the beer dept. -)07:47
DocScrutinizerand tha fake Budweisser07:47
delteven, heineken is quite very very tasty in fact07:47
deltmost ppl say im stupid when i "confess" this, but heineken and mexican corona have a similar (and very good) taste07:48
deltsome are like, wtf?? heineken is horse piss! corona is the real cerveza!! and vice versa07:49
deltvice verveza :D07:49
DocScrutinizercorona, well once a month07:49
deltstill bzipping... whoa :?07:50
delti like both, personally07:50
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DocScrutinizerI prefer our worl class Germen breweries07:50
DocScrutinizergerman even07:50
deltMohammadAG btw really sorry about that out-of-color comment about terrorist bombers :( :( :(07:51
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deltsprichst du eigentlich deutsch?07:51
delt<--- hab ein wenigh deutsch in der schule gelernt =) auch wohnte 4 jahren in deutschland / schewitz als ich junge war07:52
DocScrutinizerheh, a Canadian who knows German07:53
deltaber seit etwa 3-4 jahren hatte ich keine gelegenheit, mit jemand die sprache zu üben :( :( :(07:53
someoneelsedelt: Ich sprichst eigentlich deutsch07:53
deltsomeoneelse: toll, wo hast du es gelertnt?07:53
DocScrutinizerlease stop that07:53
DocScrutinizerplease07:54
someoneelsedelt: Ich haben nicht07:54
* DocScrutinizer points at the wonders of /query07:54
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delt(hinweis: ich "spreche", ich "habe)07:54
someoneelseDocScrutinizer: You could always ignore me again :P07:55
someoneelseDocScrutinizer: I don't speak a single word of german. Your grammar is fucked up.07:55
DocScrutinizerI'm not supposed to ignore inadequate behaviour in this channel07:55
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deltdocscru yeah mein vater war in der luftwaft von kanada als ich geboren bin, und dann 4 jahren in Lahr, west-deutschland gestellt.07:56
someoneelsedelt: Oh noes, how did they caputer you?07:56
DocScrutinizerplease stick to English, as that's the preferred language of this channel. It's considered rude to the other users to use any other language than English07:57
delt<--- bawrn in awttwa, grawn up in dawtcchlaynd!)07:57
deltDocScrutinizer: numai viêh (jk)07:57
someoneelsedelt: So why where your father in the air-something? Why didn't you stay at your birthplace to go to Lahr?07:58
deltuh sorry that would be (g)nu mai (m'dai) viêh07:58
deltsomeoneelse: cause my parents "could have" just dump me in a sewer and then 4 years later check if i was still there, but... =)07:59
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someoneelseEnglish is your second language?07:59
delt*raises hand*07:59
deltuh was that a global "to everone" question?08:00
someoneelseNope, just you. Your grammar was interessting. And I know German grammar is illogical08:00
deltwell, like i said im a canuck frenchie... so my native lang. is fr08:01
delt2nd english 3d german (or the other way around)08:01
deltthough im better at eng. id consider it my "third" language, since i was exposed to .de first, THEN learned english08:02
deltanyway, we each have our own personal history08:02
DocScrutinizeryuck French. I completely forgot tout que j'avais aprendu about that in school08:03
deltappris =)08:04
deltthough your thought process is logical08:04
DocScrutinizerwhat's the smiley for puking08:04
deltand fr is ...... uh... yeah, logical :/08:05
deltespecially our demented, crazy mangled version of it in the eastern canadian provinces08:05
delt10 times worse =)08:05
DocScrutinizerlol08:05
delthey, bz2 managed to compress the entire 2gb (something like 90% full) to like 1gb on the sd card :D !!08:06
delt(imaged the whole fs, not mount & cd, then tar -czvf . /wherever/bleh.tar.gz)08:07
delts/gz/bz2/08:08
infobotdelt meant: (imaged the whole fs, not mount & cd, then tar -czvf . /wherever/bleh.tar.bz2)08:08
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deltuh thanks bot :D08:08
deltyeah i remember that bot was smart =)08:08
deltcould do most common sed commands08:08
DocScrutinizer~botsnack08:09
infobotthanks, DocScrutinizer08:09
delthahaha08:09
delt~help08:09
DocScrutinizer:-D08:09
deltgot a whole bunch of ...uh, info in a /msg window =)08:09
deltwhich might be helpful in the future, never know heh08:10
DocScrutinizershe's smart, obedient, and furious08:10
DocScrutinizer~attack delt08:10
* infobot grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing delt08:10
deltwhoa.... he's a it.. uh, it's a he, i mean she... ???08:10
delt~gender08:11
infobotI'm male08:11
delt~gener08:11
delt~gender08:11
infobotI'm female08:11
delttss08:11
delt~gender08:11
delt~gender08:11
delt~gender08:11
DocScrutinizerlol08:11
delt~othergender08:11
delt~sexualorientation08:11
DocScrutinizer~rape delt08:12
* infobot takes delt behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams08:12
delt~i_am_not_into_bots_even_female_ones08:12
delteven tho i did meet a beautiful chick in a "wal-mart" outfit at the store earlier today, said she was just back from work08:13
DocScrutinizermaybe it's been infobot? ;-D08:13
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delthahaha yeah, she uh... i mean it, had the face of a bot :D08:13
deltso, no wonder she bought petr-oil, vaseline, and anti-freeze!08:14
deltDocScrutinizer: you live in germany? what time is it there (or where else you live)?08:15
DocScrutinizerumm, to early08:15
deltvi chpêt ist èsse08:16
DocScrutinizeryou accidentally switched to a weird keyboard layout?08:17
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DocScrutinizerlooks like somebody trying to use a dvorak kbd08:18
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deltuh yeah, can yo.... uh i mean yêäh, çàn yôü hèlp më pût ït bàçk?!??08:18
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deltdamn, i knew i should have added those ~a ~n etc. spanish letters to my überkustomeizt-kihbordläyaut08:21
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deltk anyway, its about 2:24 am.... good night, bonne nuit, good night, magandang gabi, buenas noches, sous'dei dêt tau, etc etc .....08:23
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delts/tau/teü/08:23
infobotdelt meant: k anyway, its about 2:24 am.... good night, bonne nuit, good night, magandang gabi, buenas noches, sous'dei dêt teü, etc etc .....08:23
delt/infobot thx a lot now stfu plz?08:24
deltok, cya all gnite08:24
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yigalI wish there was a computer I felt was worth investing in08:54
yigaljust give me a 7 inch arm tablet that has a nice resistive multitouch or active digitizer screen but no we can't do that for you sir08:55
yigalthat will run Ubuntu or some other OOS on it, but no no no that will never happen08:56
yigaleven 10" just don't make more than a pound, anyone whose worked with mobile devices know that after a while no matter how light your 3lb tablet is, it simply isn't after an hour of holding it08:57
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Userhi all09:09
RST38hhttp://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/von%20havenstein/Crying%20TEPCO.jpg09:11
Userhi09:12
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doc|homeRST38h: despite the picture, the article is from an awful, AWFUL tabloid from the UK09:20
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RST38hdoc: I have not seen the article09:20
doc|hometheir whole thing is $item CAUSES CANCER or Immigrants are evil!09:20
RST38hdoc: But it is TEPCO's director in the picture =)09:21
RST38h$item causes evil immigrant cancer!09:21
doc|homeRST38h: different culture all the same09:21
RST38hHere, I have just saved them about 10-15% of paper and inkcosts!09:21
doc|homehehe09:21
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ebzzryHi! How do I insert UTF-8 characters?09:42
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DocScrutinizerܠكউৣઊઔਊCੴോභஇం໗๛โฬฟ丢乴使屢痢㉣ぽ걢ᚎᚏ09:58
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someoneelseCan I use the N900 as a bluetooth headset for another phone?10:05
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robbiethe1stPossibly, but I bet it'll be laggy10:06
RST38hDoc, why are YOU of all people talkingUnicode now?10:07
DocScrutinizerRST38h: that's been at me?10:09
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DocScrutinizerwow, finally. "LIVE" video from FUCKU-I10:15
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RST38hDoc: URL?10:17
DocScrutinizernone available10:21
DocScrutinizerTV10:21
DocScrutinizershowing a closeup of fire brigades properly hosing #3 SFP10:21
DocScrutinizerbtw I still have no highlight set on 'doc:'10:22
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RST38hAh10:23
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RST38hhttp://www.ladyada.net/pub/research.html <=== the police note, ah, the police note!10:23
DocScrutinizerLOL, always thought at MIT they are a bit smarter even in the management10:29
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DocScrutinizerjet taken out over Benghasi. Most think it's one of Gadafi's, some think it's rebel's. I wonder if it's been a french jet ;-P10:39
RST38hDoc:No, not really. And they are really spooked by all the students too10:39
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DocScrutinizerhttp://www.jaif.or.jp/english/aij/110319FukushimaEventStatus-14e.pdf  >>hydrogen of SFP exploded<< :-S10:46
DocScrutinizerStatus of Fukushima I at 16:00 on 18 March  read "exposed" instead "exploded"10:47
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RST38hDoc: afaik #4 building is gone10:51
RST38hthere was a photo somewhere10:51
RST38hHere: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/world/japan_earthquake/wide_img/img/reactors976x550_3.jpg10:52
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DocScrutinizerblock #5 #6 >>Vent hole opened on rooftop to prevent hydrogen explosion11:32
DocScrutinizereven those lies called official reports are really scary ->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Fukushima_nuclear_accidents#cite_note-JAIF_status_20110317_1600-72 - esp when comparing then one after the other and watch the changes11:33
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jonwilJaffa: ping11:39
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RST38h...lists a total of 63 persons with the title of "President" as well as [DATA EXPUNGED] title O5. The signal then changes from ASCII to an as-yet undeciphered format, listing an estimated 7 more names.11:42
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: because it's nuclear power station explosion that caused earthquake and tsunami11:42
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: isn't it?11:42
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Venemogood morning11:46
DocScrutinizerwell, we're yet to see the really good blast. I doubt the facts listed in those jaf status reports a lot. For example when they inject seawater into pressure vessel / core since days, then I'd expect those reactors safe, and also lots of steam escaping from all 3 buildings. But they say they even stopped containment venting, so what's going to happen with that sea water injected into those few m^3 core pressure vessel11:47
jacekowskiit's going to blow up11:47
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: as time goes down, decay heat reduces.11:48
DocScrutinizerI guess they're feed seawater to core by the teaspoon11:48
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jacekowskiSpeedEvil: yeah, but it takes like couple months for it to reduce to reasonable values11:48
SpeedEvilAt some point, decay heat will reduce far enough that conduction can validly cool the core, to the point at which the pressure vessel can shut the valves11:48
DocScrutinizernah, of course that's mere BS & lies11:49
jacekowskii think it is that single rod produces 25W after 90 days11:49
SpeedEvilIt's IIRC been reported at a percent now.11:49
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jacekowskiSpeedEvil: of power while it's fully on load11:49
SpeedEvilyes.11:49
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: that's still lot of heat11:49
SpeedEvilWhich is 14 megawatts or so.11:49
jacekowskiit's like 10MW11:49
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jacekowskiyou can create local summer with that sort of heat11:50
DocScrutinizeryeah, 10MW, for at least 60 days11:50
jacekowskithat's why they start to circulate that water11:50
jacekowskior it will heat up11:50
jacekowskiand blow up11:50
DocScrutinizerwell cooling needed for at least 60 days is what they said. Not that power will stay at 10MW11:50
jacekowskiwell, that's in normal conditions11:51
jacekowskinow parts of core are molten11:51
jacekowskiand somewhere on bottom of reactor11:51
DocScrutinizerwhich makes things worse11:51
jacekowskii suppose that would need more cold water to cool down blob of molten stuff11:51
DocScrutinizerhmm, then not11:51
jacekowskithan rods that are designed to be cooled11:51
jacekowskithat's why i really like CANDU reactors11:52
DocScrutinizerI don't like any reactor11:52
jacekowskiyou're german11:52
DocScrutinizerexcept fusion11:52
jacekowskii've heard you are so scared of nuclear electricity that you are closing down all nuclear power stations in couple years11:52
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DocScrutinizerfission is an incredible mess and dirt11:53
DocScrutinizerI'd hope we did11:53
SpeedEvilIf I've got the numbers right, at 14Mw, there is about 50Kw/m^2 of heat from the reactor vessel.11:53
DocScrutinizerand I hope those fsckers that built and operated them, will eat the nuklear waste11:54
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: coal is worse than nuclear11:54
DocScrutinizerbut then, what to do with those fukkers11:54
jacekowskilong term effects of one nuclear power station exploding every 10 years11:54
jacekowskiare less severe than running coal power stations all the time11:54
DocScrutinizerwe're planning for windparks and sun here11:55
robbiethe1stTo be honest, I'd like to see some plants that use the nuclear waste: I mean, we've got hot pools, and need to cool it with power... why not use that power on the grid?11:55
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: and what about night11:55
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: when there is no sun and no wind11:55
robbiethe1stPut a dome over it, run the steam through a turbine. Simple.11:55
jacekowskirobbiethe1st: CANDU11:55
robbiethe1stAlright then, good11:55
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: storage11:56
jonwilThere are already reactor designs that can burn nuclear waste11:56
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: where?11:56
jacekowskirobbiethe1st: CANDU can pretty much run on any kind of nuclear fuel11:56
robbiethe1stEven really low grade?11:56
jacekowskirobbiethe1st: yes11:56
robbiethe1stGood.11:56
robbiethe1stThen, start building loads of em.11:56
jacekowskirobbiethe1st: it's designed to run on natural unenriched uraniom11:56
jacekowskiit's running at atmospheric pressures11:56
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: in Norway, in caverns, in Alps, in batteries...11:57
jacekowskibatteries with lead and acid11:58
jacekowskithat have to be replaced every  couple years11:58
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: nonsense11:58
DocScrutinizerthere's WAY better technologies than lead-acid11:58
jacekowskiand besides, have you calculated how much power you get from square meter of land11:59
jacekowskiof sun power11:59
jacekowskiand assuming you get sun for 12h a day11:59
DocScrutinizernot here, in Sahara11:59
robbiethe1stLike what? Best I've seen is say a liquid-sodium battery, which might work on -large- scale... but still needs to be kept hot etc.11:59
jacekowskithen build nuclear power stations there11:59
jacekowskiif it blows up there11:59
DocScrutinizerthere's a pan-european project under way11:59
jacekowskinobody will care about some niggers glowing at night11:59
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: a wok?12:00
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DocScrutinizereh?12:00
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jacekowskiand you're risking that shit like it's happening now will cut you from electricity12:00
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DocScrutinizerI'm not talking about chinese food12:00
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jacekowskime neither12:01
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: lame argument12:01
jacekowskiand even then12:01
jacekowskiyou get 12h of sun a day12:01
robbiethe1stLet me just say this: If we can build some sort of converter that can convert heat energy to electricity effeciently at temperatures <80F, that would solve a lot of problems. But without something like that, solar panels and other renewable energy just won't cut it everywhere. Hydro would, and does... but only in limited areas.12:01
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SpeedEvilrobbiethe1st: We can't.12:01
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jacekowskiit's 1kW to 2kW per square meter12:02
SpeedEvilrobbiethe1st: 30C-20C - say - you have a delta-t of 10K, and an efficiency of about 1/27th maximum.12:02
DocScrutinizermeh12:02
SpeedEviljacekowski: rarely over 1, never over 138012:02
SpeedEvil1.3812:02
robbiethe1stSpeedEvil: Alright...12:03
SpeedEvilrobbiethe1st: Carnot efficiency.12:03
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robbiethe1stHow much energy would that generate, then?12:03
SpeedEvilrobbiethe1st: 30W or so peak per square meter.12:03
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SpeedEvilrobbiethe1st: 10W or so average, optimistically.12:04
jacekowskiassuming safe value of 200GW that just germany uses12:04
jacekowskiand assuming 100% efficiency at 1kW per sqare meter12:04
jacekowskisquare*12:04
robbiethe1stHm. So, you could easily have 200W constant power per house, 24hrs a day. And far more during the day. Not great, but that'd be something12:05
jacekowskiso assuming that12:05
jacekowskiand assuming 12h of power per day12:05
jacekowskiand that your storage is 100% efficient12:05
SpeedEvilrobbiethe1st: you're assuming the solar collector is free. And that the theoretical efficiency can be achieved.12:05
jacekowskiyou would need solar power station12:05
jacekowskifully loaded with solar panels12:06
robbiethe1stSpeedEvil: Well, heat-collector, but yes, I suppose.12:06
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jacekowskion square of size of 20km by 20km12:06
SpeedEviljacekowski: Efficiency is rarely over 20% for solar panels.12:06
jacekowskithat makes it 44km by 44km12:07
SpeedEviljacekowski: For germany, the average insolation is _much_ below 1kw/m^2*12h12:07
jacekowskiit gets worse when nights are longer and days are shorter12:08
jacekowskiso imagine 100km square12:08
jacekowskiand time it takes to install that12:08
SpeedEvilhttp://re.jrc.ec.europa.eu/pvgis/apps4/PVcalc.php12:09
jacekowskii think before you got to installing first 10% of that you would have to replace first panel because it deteriorated so much12:09
SpeedEvilYou're looking at ~1100Kwh/year per m^212:09
jacekowskierror12:09
SpeedEvilThis is ~2.5KWh/day.12:09
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a0PwC089VU_I   http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aoA1lvLbVDXU    http://www.google.de/search?hl=de&q=desertec+siemens12:09
SpeedEvilAnd this is for a pointed panel.12:09
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: math says it's not going to happen12:10
SpeedEvilThe actual horizontal space is more like optimistically 1KWh/day/m^212:10
DocScrutinizeruhuh12:10
SpeedEvil(for large horizontal panels)12:10
DocScrutinizersorry, I believe in math of Deutsche Bank bankers, more than in yours12:11
jonwilsolar thermal seems to be a promising technology12:11
SpeedEvilKnock at best 20% off that for storage.12:11
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: then do your math12:11
jonwilThe idea seems to be like a solar hot water system only on a much bigger scale and with much more concentration of the heat12:11
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: old water pumped storage station in poland has efficiency like 75%12:11
jonwilso it uses the sun to boil water12:12
jonwiland produce steam12:12
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: and it was built 40 years ago12:12
jonwilto run a generator12:12
jonwilGeothemal is also a good idea IMO12:12
SpeedEviljacekowski: Sure - now work out how much resovoir area you need to store 2 days * 200GW. It's a fucking huge number.12:12
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: so losses on storage are not that high12:12
jacekowskiput it on the orbit12:12
SpeedEvilIn orbit adds other huge problems.12:13
SpeedEvilCost of launch, and maintainability, and rectenna size.12:13
jacekowskirectenna?12:13
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jacekowskii'm not talking about something like that12:14
jacekowskipumping water up and down to and from orbit12:14
jacekowskiwith long hose12:14
SpeedEvilA microwave antenna used for power reception12:14
jacekowskigarden hose12:14
SpeedEvilOh - never mind, I thought you were being serious, I wasn't reading closely enough.12:14
jacekowskiwater on the orbit would have huge potential energy12:14
DocScrutinizeryou're quite funny about that12:15
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: it is valid concept from physics point of view12:15
SpeedEviljacekowski: No, it's not.12:15
SpeedEviljacekowski: Integrate gravity from geostationary orbit to ground.12:16
jacekowskiwhat was it (G m1 m2)/l^212:16
SpeedEvilIt is possible with single wall nanotube cables to have a cable with modest taper - say 30:1 - reaching from geosync to ground.12:16
jacekowskino12:16
jacekowskithat was force between two objects12:16
DocScrutinizerE.ON is one of only 5 German (err European actually) Power companies. Siemens is... well if you dunno, I can't help. Deutsche Bank same. Do you really think those have bilions to spent of wrong math?12:16
SpeedEvilA pipe would have a completely hopeless tether.12:16
DocScrutinizers/t of/d on/12:17
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: E.ON is one of only 5 German (err European actually) Power companies. Siemens is... well if you dunno, I can't help. Deutsche Bank same. Do you really think those have bilions to spend on wrong math?12:17
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Subsidised panels are not fairly counted.12:17
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: it's probably government funding that makes math work out for them12:17
DocScrutinizerwhat fsckng subsidized panels?12:17
jacekowskianyways12:18
jacekowskibe back later12:18
DocScrutinizerI'm not talking about PV12:18
SpeedEvilA large slice of germanys solar output goes to subsidised german panels.12:18
jacekowskii'm going to MOT my car12:18
jacekowskii've spent 6h taking suspension apart and then putting it back together12:18
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you checked the links to desertec?12:18
jacekowskiso it would be nice if it passes12:19
jacekowskiwell financialy it may work out12:19
jacekowskias in they're not going to make loss on it12:19
SpeedEvilOh - the thermal thing - no I diddn't.12:19
jacekowskibut it's not going to replace conventional power stations12:19
SpeedEvilAnd yes, the prroblem is that germany has few deserts.12:20
SpeedEvilMaybe it could fix that.12:20
jacekowskithey plan to install it on sahara12:20
jacekowskiand then transport electricity from there12:20
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article7298116/Wie-Siemens-in-Spanien-den-Wuestenstrom-testet.html12:21
jacekowskitransport 200GW over that distance12:21
* DocScrutinizer wonders why he's talking to dudes not interested in listening12:21
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: Siemens does exactly that12:21
DocScrutinizer"MV DC12:22
lolcatDocScrutinizer: It is some foreign language12:22
DocScrutinizer2MV DC12:22
DocScrutinizeror was it 400kV12:22
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DocScrutinizerthis is a project way larger than e.g. the suez channel, or the assuan dam12:24
kerioor some minecraft things i've seen12:25
SpeedEvilLong distance power transmission is not technically challenging.12:25
SpeedEvilIt's simply annoying engineering-wise.12:25
SpeedEvilAnd puts you in the position of either having to defend militarily the pipeline and collector, or rely on the good will of all future goverrnments along the pipeline and collector.12:26
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keriothat's the main reason the sensible solution to the world energetic problem - solar and geothermal power stations in the sahara, with hydrogen as a vector - will never be actually implemented :(12:28
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SpeedEvilHydrogen is not a sensible vector if you just want to move energy from pointA-B12:31
SpeedEvilWires are much cheaper12:31
DocScrutinizerthat's not hydrogen, but nevermind12:31
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kerioSpeedEvil: good point12:32
DocScrutinizerWAY cheaper, and probably even less loss12:32
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DocScrutinizerway more sturdy12:33
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DocScrutinizerhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desertec12:36
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kerioDocScrutinizer: i think hydrogen is a pretty cool guy, eh is inefficient but doesn't afraid of pollution12:41
* SpeedEvil hits kerio over the head with his anti-meme lolcat.12:42
keriocan't has memes? :(/12:43
kerioreally though, hydrogen sucks but at least when you burn it it releases water and not stuff that kills you12:43
DocScrutinizerhmm, we don't want to burn the energy we get from solar power plants in north africa12:44
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keriosolar and geothermal12:44
DocScrutinizergeothermal is done locally12:44
kerioyeah but takes space12:45
keriobelow the solar panels we'll have lots of space12:45
kerioas in, under ground12:45
DocScrutinizerthe whole Rhine valley seems has good preconditions for geothermal12:45
DocScrutinizereh, geothermal takes space?12:45
kerioto make enough energy12:46
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kerionon-renewable energy sources make a shitton of energy :(12:46
DocScrutinizerhow's that? Do you plan to mine the geoheat in open mining?12:46
keriohmm, "are"?12:46
kerioDocScrutinizer: digging under stuff is harder than digging under nothing12:47
DocScrutinizerwho's digging?12:47
DocScrutinizerwhat for?12:47
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woldrichHello there people.12:48
woldrichI'm wondering if it's possible to install a not-so-ancient Perl version without chroot yet?12:48
DocScrutinizerdrilling for geothermic power is like drilling for oil, just cleaner. For sure you don't dig and don't need large real estate12:48
kerioyou need space underground because above you have solar panels everywhere12:48
DocScrutinizerkerio: don't eat acid for breakfast!12:49
kerioorange juice is slightly acid, does that count?12:52
JaffaMorning, all12:56
Jaffajonwil: pong12:56
JaffaDocScrutinizer: pong12:56
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jonwilJaffa: any news on whats mentioned in https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11128#c812:57
povbotBug 11128: Opening the source for Sharing services framework12:57
jonwil?12:57
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jonwilOr are the "powers that be" still trying to figure out what to do?12:58
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pupnik_you are the power that be13:02
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Jaffajonwil: I've chased once. I'll do so again next week.13:02
jonwilok13:03
jonwilI suspect these things are going to take time whatever happens13:03
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* Jaffa nods13:04
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jonwilme, I am concerned that the Nokia people will simply say "these particular packages are dead, everyone should be hacking on ofono/conman/whatever"13:07
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* RST38h yawns13:35
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RST38hTime to reanimate this channel: looks like Harmattan will be marketed as "Maemo" after all.13:35
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jonwilDoes any of this mean anything to me as a N900 owner?13:36
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RST38hNo, you are ok, go back to sleep.13:37
merlin1991RST38h: I'm sort of lost on the Harmattan / Meego / Maemo naming, what is what actually?13:37
RST38hMaemo = Nokia's own product,based on Debian for the base OS and gtk+ for UI13:38
RST38hHarmattan = last icarnation of Maemo, aka Maemo6, with the same Debian for the base OS and Qt for UI13:38
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RST38hMeego = the supposed "future" OS, developed in supposed "collaboration" with Intel, based on Fedora base OS and Qt UI13:39
merlin1991thx :)13:39
merlin1991is there a good place to find info about harmattan?13:39
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RST38hNotice that Harmattan and Meego share the supposedly same Qt UI13:39
RST38hmerlin: Google?13:39
merlin1991no google is the suck, with the bloody localized search optimisation I just get bs when googling for harmattan :D13:40
RST38hworksforme.13:40
merlin1991I get lots of hits for the wind, and some french pages about whatever :D13:41
JamesWSHello13:42
RST38hlearn to use google properly then13:42
merlin1991I just love answers like ^13:43
MohammadAGHarmattan is a wind :P13:43
MohammadAGso is Fremantle13:43
merlin1991but then again, you didn't link me to lmgtfy.com/ :D13:43
MohammadAGjustfuckinggoogleit.com is better13:44
MohammadAG(real site btw)13:44
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pupnik_"Something must be done!  This is something, therefore it must be done."13:46
alteregogoogle: nokia harmattan maybe?13:46
* alterego finds the idea of keywords quite easy to comprehend, therefore it must be quite easy to comprehend ..13:47
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alteregoYet, it is quite amazing how seemingly lazy some people are. otoh, I wouldn't mind teaching people how to perform decent search queries.13:48
alteregoLike, how do I google for information on maemo/meego harmattan13:48
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OkropNickWhat application can I use on N900 to create desktop shortcuts to bash scripts?14:07
SpeedEvilqueen beecon14:07
OkropNickthx14:07
SpeedEvilhttp://maemo.org/packages/view/queen-beecon/14:07
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yaccAny idea how to make the N900 believe the keyboard has been opened while it's closed?14:21
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MohammadAGdepends which app you want to trick14:27
MohammadAGsome apps listen to a gconf value14:27
MohammadAG/system/osso/af/slide-open14:28
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OkropNickSpeedEvil: what a powerful tool! thank you again :)14:35
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SpeedEvilOkropNick: It is awesome, thought he icons are rather odd.14:36
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OkropNickone more question. what is name of program which is displaying short messages on the top of screen in cases of: chargerv connected, charger disconnected, sms delivered and so on. I want use it for other purposes15:00
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alteregoOkropNick: it's a Hildon Notification Banner15:11
alteregoOkropNick: what language are you developing in?15:11
OkropNickalterego: thanks - I'm not gonna developing anything big, I'm just want to use it with queen beecon15:12
alteregoAh, erm. Probably best bet is to write a small python wrapper then15:12
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kerioyay python15:13
villagerOkropNick: easiest is probably to use the osso module (python-osso if you use python) to show such a notification15:14
OkropNickvillager: is easy way to display hildon banner using bash script?15:14
villagershould be, but I don't see any shell script examples of the banner... only of the system note dialog, which is bigger and in the middle of the screen15:16
alteregoThat's why I'm saying you'll probabk15:17
alteregoly need to write a python command to do it that you can call from shell15:17
villagersomeone might be able to see what dbus commands libosso sends and convert it to shell commands15:19
OkropNickok, i'm reading about it. I need to build small tool for display message and vibrate when power level will be - for example 10%15:19
macmaNmorning allz15:19
alteregoI'll write you a little app, ang on.15:19
OkropNickalterego: oo, thank you. I can put it to fcron15:20
OkropNickshort message and one short vibration - thats all I need15:21
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macmaNwould anyone have a tip on what's the optimal way to get n900 stock rootfs into a qemu host stage15:21
villagerthink I'll try to see what libosso does, out of curiosity15:21
macmaNi.e. is there an image that is used for that usually or do i need to manually copy / from device15:22
jonwilthe Hildon Banner code is in libhildon, not libosso15:22
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jonwiloh wait its somewhere else15:23
alteregojonwil: it's in osso for python15:23
jonwiloh ok15:23
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GuySofthi all, is there a way to list all the fonts i have available? i want to change the default font in opera15:24
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alteregoOkropNick: http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/m5infoprint.py15:26
OkropNickalterego: I've just found code for system notification: dbus-send --type=method_call --dest=org.freedesktop.Notifications /org/freedesktop/Notifications org.freedesktop.Notifications.SystemNoteInfoprint string:"NOTIFICATION"15:26
OkropNickalterego: thx, I'll check it15:26
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alteregoOr that yeah :)15:27
alteregowell, the syntax for my command is: ./m5infoprint.py "Whatever message you want"15:28
OkropNickhere is many cool things: http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control15:28
alteregoYeah, that's a good page.15:28
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villagerjonwil: you can show the banner two ways: either with hildon, which makes the *app* own it... or with libosso, which makes some system process own it15:30
jonwiloh ok15:30
villagerjonwil: personally I use the hildon way when I need control, and the osso way when my script will exit immediately and can't keep it open itself15:31
jonwilok15:31
villagerhmm, looks like libosso just sends the same freedesktop.org notifications that are on that phone control web page...15:31
villagerOkropNick: so yeah, you can do it from a shell script: http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control#Send_notification_.28orange_one_line_popup.2915:32
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villagerI guess it's only the second one there that's the big one, not the first one15:33
OkropNickvillager: yes, I'll join it with one vibration and never forget about charging when N900 is in pocket15:33
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macmaNok i guess not. but how come there is no distcc package for maemo15:35
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macmaNoh ok15:39
macmaNdo you need distcc? i find it easier to mount the slow machine via nfs, chroot there and have the whole emerge process run on my quadcore which hardly ever runs out of memory. - i only work on x86, though, i don't know if this could possibly work with an arm target.15:40
macmaNthis is pretty good thinking too15:40
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villagermacmaN: most C/C++ developers do not compile on the n900, they cross compile on their regular pcs, no need for distcc for maemo15:41
keriobut distcc on a network of N900s is leet15:42
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macmaNvillager: right but where do i get the correct libc setup15:42
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macmaNvillager: my buildrig is gentoo and by default its crossdev thing installs all the latest libs, i dont think some sort of maemo-template exists15:43
macmaNalthought that'd be really really nice15:44
villagermacmaN: I use the scratchbox-based maemo sdk, but if you plan to develop with Qt I hear there are also some qt sdks that might be easier to use than scratchbox15:45
villagerlike MADDE or something15:46
villagerqtcreator15:47
alteregoYeah, the Nokia Qt SDK is really good, though I use it with Scratchbox too.15:48
alteregoGot it nicely integrated for on device or scratchbox deployment.15:48
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villagerthe good thing about the scratchbox thing is that it has kind of a n900 emulator so you can do quick tests of your app in it without downloading it to the phone all the time15:51
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villagernot a great emulator, but at least something15:52
alteregoWell, that's why the Nokia SDK with maemo deployment is good, ctrl+r and it copies and runs it on the device.15:54
alteregoscratchbox is a little more combersome, but I have the same thing anyway, like ctrl+r runs my project in qt creater under scratchbox, when I've set the target to scratchbox15:55
alteregoI usually use a mixture of both, I use scratchbox to create packages though.15:56
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macmaNhmmm, yes i should install the qt sdk on linux16:18
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GuySofthi all, is it possible to change the default font in opera mobile? each time i change it in opera:config, it reverts back16:35
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lcuklol DocScrutinizer, optifying /usr/share is a bit "tricky"16:48
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macmaNw00t, got qemu chroot working mounting n900:/ over nfs16:52
macmaNawesome16:53
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lcukDocScrutinizer, booted happily now but did not end up saving as much rootfs space as I thought17:03
* lcuk ponders trying /usr17:03
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jonwilSomeone should make a list of all the folders on the rootfs that actually NEED to be on the rootfs17:07
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lcukjonwil, I will expect you to have the wiki report finished by 4pm17:09
jonwil:P17:09
lcukjonwil, you like investigating things - have you booted MeeGo yet?17:09
jonwilnope17:10
jonwilNot interested in alternative OSs on my N90017:10
jonwilonly in making the one I do use better17:10
jonwiltoo late in the day for me to play with /usr stuff17:10
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lcukjonwil, ok then well I found out MeeGo by default does something immensely faster than Maemo17:10
macmaNcan anyone share a keyword about re-configuring /etc/resolv.conf when making usb network connection?17:11
macmaNi would like nameservers reordered when i connect with usb0 and then restored when i disconnect17:11
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macmaNi understand dnsmasq takes care of it at 127.0.0.1, so should i push something into dnsmasq configuration or directly into /etc/resolv.conf17:12
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macmaNhttp://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking only has info about manual editing, but there is some debian-way to do automated reconfiguration.. no?17:14
lcukmacmaN, I hear people talk about editing ifup ifdown configuration thingies to do odd things like this17:15
macmaNhmm, how is that strange, i am not sure i can make network dhcp available through usb and you might not always want to either17:17
macmaNbut still access the internet17:17
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macmaNok i should probably google this from the debian pov17:19
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OkropNickalterego: I wrote simple ash script to vibrate and display alert when energy level fall below given value. Do you want it?17:22
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OkropNickcan be run by fcron for example17:23
MohammadAGenergy level?17:23
OkropNickcharge level17:23
MohammadAGdoesn't bme do that? except the vibration bit17:23
OkropNickIt uses bme, I'll show you, w817:23
OkropNickhttp://pastebin.com/bUZvfUgy17:25
OkropNickIt's very simple but I was missing that feature17:26
SpeedEvilBME does that17:27
SpeedEvilIt goes beep, displays battery low, and then later, double beeps17:27
OkropNickbut it's too quiet. I can't hear it when I have headphones or when phone is in pocket17:29
MohammadAGhal-device bme | grep percentage | awk '{print $3}'17:29
MohammadAGI kinda hate regexes :P17:29
OkropNick:)17:29
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SpeedEviluseless use of grep17:31
SpeedEvilawk '/percentage/{print $3}'17:31
OkropNickthx17:31
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MohammadAGkinda dead in here today17:45
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lcukMohammadAG, same everywhere17:47
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alteregolcuk: another thing that annoys me, wonky photos :P17:49
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lcukalterego, haha17:49
lcukin which thing alterego ?17:50
lcuk(note which chan you are on)17:50
alteregothe nokia tablet mockup17:50
alteregoYeah, I nkow :P17:50
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alteregohttp://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/03/conceptual-meego-tablet-ui-pictures/17:50
alteregoI felt sorry for MohammadAG :P17:50
MohammadAGlol17:51
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MohammadAGalterego, you know I could just tap #meego on the chanlist :P17:51
alteregoYeah well17:54
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ZogG<MohammadAG> kinda dead in here today |it's just i was asleep17:57
ZogGMohammadAG, 2 things17:58
ZogG1) when you go to Jordan you ping me first i liked the laptop price17:58
ZogG2) what keyboard do you use17:58
MohammadAGMy laptop's keyboard xD17:59
ZogGyou don't have desktop?17:59
MohammadAGI do, but I don't use it, at all17:59
MohammadAGLogitech, some old model that's probably extinct now18:00
ZogGi want something like mac's18:00
ZogGhttp://www.ret.ru/images/m51393/743027.jpg18:00
ZogGlike this for example18:00
ZogGbut we don't have18:01
alteregolcuk: weird, whilst working on my UX ideas, I sketched something that looks a lot like handset ...18:01
MohammadAGsketch iOS!!1eleven118:01
MohammadAGZogG, get a mac keyboard?18:02
MohammadAGI think they work on PCs18:02
ZogGit is white18:02
MohammadAGracist!18:03
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MohammadAG:P18:03
ZogGand it's too expensive, i mean it's not that i don't have that money, but they want too much only cause it's apple and i don't want to feed jobs =)18:03
ZogGMohammadAG, oh i am racist =)18:03
lcukI once got a mac keyboard, but between the hamburger button and fries dispenser it was a bit useless18:04
lcukMohammadAG, ZogG :(18:04
alteregoHahah18:04
ZogGlcuk say wut?18:05
SpeedEvilZogG: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/foldable-and-undestructable-usb-flexible-keyboard-109-key-1368418:05
MohammadAGlcuk, what? I'm racist towards muslims18:05
OkropNickHmm, it is very strange. When I run this script http://pastebin.com/Em7sWnKK from terminal, it displays text and vibrating, but when I run this script from fcron there is only vibration, no message.18:05
MohammadAGxD18:05
macmaNSpeedEvil: ive been thinking about those kinds of solutions to carry for tableting18:06
macmaNif i only had a maemo/meego tablet :/18:06
ZogGSpeedEvil lol18:06
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macmaNi wonder how small that folds to18:06
macmaNand is it usable enough for coding18:07
macmaNon the run18:07
lcukmacmaN, perhaps not on the run18:07
ZogGmacmaN, you can use http://www.indiana.edu/~libpres/manual/materials/matimages/notebook.jpg this for coding18:07
lcuk100 metre dash + SMS18:07
lcukai32ursdnhvks5 289rsfer2iridsjv98d\ s uew 8sud98fshj45jr98sfs9t45 jo4wr w8tr9432tr18:07
ZogGlcuk, why not, there is nike coding shoes =)18:08
ZogGlcuk, is a bot ^18:08
lcukZogG, I use something similar for coding :)18:08
ZogGlcuk, i used to code with steps shoes18:08
ZogGwhen you dance in Morse's code18:09
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* lcuk has a mac mini keyboard18:10
lcukZogG: http://liqbase.net/liq.n810.laptopmode.20080305.S6002381.JPG18:10
ZogGlcuk i want one for desktop and not maemo18:12
ZogGwhy woud i need one for maemo?18:12
ZogGis n900 or n8*0 keyboard more comfy?18:13
lcukZogG, for coding, 810 and 900 keyboards are good for poking18:13
lcukbut tough to get required characters for efficient coding18:13
ZogGlcuk, you built nice mac pro there =)18:13
lcuktab and | mostly (I know you can configure them)18:13
ZogGlcuk i have | on n900 =)18:13
ZogGand tab18:14
lcukI have that too, look .|..18:14
ZogGthere is script in extras18:14
lcukas stated, they can be configured18:14
ZogGn900 is awesome18:14
ZogGall the droid and iphones are just for games18:15
ZogGn900 is real business here18:15
* lcuk nods18:15
* ZogG xmms2> Peter Gabriel - My Body Is A Cage ["Scratch My Back" 2010]18:15
lcukwhat is the most fully loaded n900 around?18:15
ZogGnice song from last house =)18:15
lcukwho has pushed it to uber limits with most OSes and stuff?18:15
ZogGlcuk, MohammadAG ?18:15
lcukMohammadAG is tame :P18:16
ZogGi think he tried ubuntu or fedora =)18:16
ZogGMohammadAG, did you?18:16
ZogG<lcuk> MohammadAG is lame :P18:16
ZogGlol18:16
lcukZogG, we were doing ubuntu on n810 and stuff18:16
ZogGoh and there was someone porting gentoo to n810 =)18:16
ZogGhttp://nosocomia.com:8099/n810-gentoo/18:17
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lcukZogG, yeah18:18
macmaNZogG: https://github.com/slonopotamus/18:18
macmaNi just got n800 booting gentoo18:18
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SpeedEvilCongrats.18:18
ZogGmacmaN just right now/18:18
ZogGSpeedEvil, aren't you happy for them?18:18
macmaNwith xorg-server-1.9.4, wireless and all18:18
macmaNwell no, a day or so ago18:19
MohammadAGlcuk, I had 6 OSs on the N90018:19
ZogGmacmaN, how does it work?18:19
lcukMohammadAG, :D18:19
ZogGMohammadAG, wich ones?18:19
* lcuk retracts his previous comment18:19
macmaNlcuk: im installing gentoo prefix on n900 right now18:19
lcukMohammadAG is awesome :P18:20
MohammadAGnow I only have Maemo and MeeGo18:20
lcukMohammadAG, how can we benchmark properly between them18:20
MohammadAGmove Maemo to the eMMC I guess18:21
ZogGMohammadAG, meego is on sd?18:21
lcuksince yesterday I noticed that by default MeeGo appears to have better configurations for compiling stuff within18:21
ZogGi want to get there too18:21
macmaNZogG: very nicely! i will be figuring out next what kind of UI i will put on it, it needs some thought considering theres no keyboard and most of the software out there isnt for tablets18:21
ZogGfor now nit and maemo18:21
MohammadAGno, internal eMMC18:21
macmaNactually i think there might be room now for a tablet-desktop-environment for linux18:21
MohammadAGuSD sucks18:21
ZogGMohammadAG, do not want to format emmc and split it =(18:22
lcukMohammadAG, it doesn't suck so much.  but to use eMMC requires planning and lots of mucking around resizing partitions - most important is user data on there18:22
ZogGis meego already usable?18:23
ZogGas lcuk never answer me on twitter =)18:23
MohammadAGZogG, use gparted18:23
MohammadAGjust resize it, no need to format18:24
ZogGmeh18:24
ZogGi did it on laptop18:24
ZogGtook ages18:24
ZogGalso hinking to get to ext2 on emmc18:25
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pupnikmammas don't let your babies grow up18:27
lcukZogG, where, what, when?18:27
GermanMEto be cowboys18:27
MohammadAGlcuk, not that much of a risk tbh18:27
lcukahh ZogG18:27
lcukwell you knwo the DeveloperEdition is in progress, track it to see http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/DeveloperEdition18:28
* alterego ponders how cool it'd be if all handset UXs were written in QML ..18:28
lcukalterego, well since the powersaving is not yet inplace, it wouldn't be that cool18:29
ZogGruskie, hey byddu18:29
MohammadAGas much as I like QML, I'd hate the fact that my UI is interpretted :P18:29
MohammadAGdrop the second t18:29
alteregoMohammadAG: it's not really interpreted ..18:30
* lcuk puts hand up18:30
alteregoWell, the javascript is, but the Qml is used to build a scene graph18:30
lcukalterego, where is the QML compiler?18:30
ZogGMohammadAG, how is yopur mediaplayer?18:31
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MohammadAGvery usable as a music replacement18:33
MohammadAGmusic-only replacement mediaplayer18:33
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MohammadAGalterego, do you know of a gstreamer based widget for Qt?18:35
alteregoQMediaPlayer?18:35
alteregoOr whatever it's called, whatever is in QtMultimedia18:36
MohammadAGmeh, don't want to use QtMultimedia18:36
alteregoYes, stick to mafw compliance :P18:37
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MohammadAGmafw rocks :P18:39
MohammadAGactually, yeah, mafw's good, Nokia's implementation sucks18:39
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pupnikhttp://thethoughtexperiment.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/happyfreaksviaiwanabeyourdog.jpg  R. Crumb - janis joplin18:48
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macmaNsigh18:49
macmaNmanaged to get my n900 into a reboot loop18:50
macmaNdamn18:50
MohammadAGreason?18:51
macmaNi wonder how18:51
macmaNno idea18:51
macmaNthe only suspicious thing i did was letting emerge update ld.so.cache18:51
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macmaNis there some way to monitor the boot process18:52
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macmaNhmmm18:54
macmaNactually i did use qcpufreq to put max at 900mhz18:54
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ZogGMohammadAG,  you mean no video and radio support for now18:57
MohammadAGradio is supported, sort of18:57
MohammadAGbut yeah, for now, I'm the only one working on this :(18:57
ZogG=(18:58
ZogGi don't think it's for now =(18:58
ZogGMohammadAG, how would you handle video btw?18:58
MohammadAGwhy?18:58
MohammadAGmafw18:58
ZogGmplayer is nice =)18:59
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MohammadAGscrew it, needs a fast CPU18:59
MohammadAGand I'm replacing the stock player, not changing the whole underlying stack18:59
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MohammadAGmost stuff is easy to implement, but idk how to do the gstreamer widget19:00
ZogGwhat do you mean. the one for displaying video?19:01
MohammadAGyes19:01
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MohammadAGthink I should get genres view working next19:01
MohammadAGthen playlist view19:01
MohammadAGthen music only replacement is done19:02
MohammadAGinternet radio should also be easy19:02
* RST38h moos, greets Mohammad19:02
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pupnikmoo19:04
RST38hhey pupnik19:04
MohammadAGmoo RST38h :D19:04
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pupnikn900 is bestest thing ever19:04
hajbut it could be better.. ;)19:04
ZogGMohammadAG, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1873113/how-to-implement-a-video-widget-in-qt-that-builds-upon-gstreamer19:04
RST38hare you really including all the humand methods of getting satisfaction into the comparison?19:05
ZogGMohammadAG, as well this can be releated and it's releated to n800 http://www.qtforum.org/article/26990/how-to-show-gstreamer-video-inside-qt-widget.html19:05
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MohammadAGZogG, I guess I'll need to read about gstreamer too19:10
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pupnikhaj: what two things would you change19:16
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MohammadAGhttp://www.engadget.com/2011/03/18/internet-explorer-versions-1-through-9-compared-signs-of-progre/ epic title19:22
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macmaNhrm somehow getting access to rootfs in this flash mode would be very nice19:23
macmaNi wonder if i should just re-flash the kernel to start19:24
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Macerwtf19:44
Maceri swappped to wifi and lost my tmob cell connection19:44
Maceris there something i can do to reset the modem without a power cycle?19:44
pupnikswapped to wifi?19:45
Maceryes19:45
Maceri manually connected to my wifi when i got home19:45
Macerbut i have been running into this problem all on its own19:46
Macerwhere i lose the tmob connection19:46
ruskiethe 3g data connection?19:46
Macerand have to power cycle to get it back19:46
Macerboth19:46
Macerthe data and cell connection19:46
ruskiehmm19:46
ruskiedata lossing should be normal... but losing the cell connection...19:47
Maceryeah. it just seems to die on me19:47
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Maceris there some way to re-run the modem startup?19:47
Macerin order to get it to reset itself without powering off?19:47
ruskieno clue19:48
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Macerheh19:48
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macmaNhrm, so how long is the knightrider show supposed to go on after flash19:49
ruskieafter flash?19:49
Macerand now... tmobile isnt listed in my internet connection list19:49
Macerugh19:49
SpeedEvilmacmaN: serveral mins19:49
Maceri think it is time to dump the n900 :)19:49
SpeedEvilmacmaN: takes ages for first boot19:49
Maceri should get a g2 or something19:49
macmaNahh indeed19:49
macmaNok now pin code entry19:50
Maceri wish there was an android rom with a gnu environment19:50
Macerthat would make android perfect19:50
macmaNMacer: exactly19:51
macmaNMacer: can i haz just the hardware please pretty much19:52
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macmaNsigh, back to installing cssu n friends :/19:52
macmaNi really wonder how i messed it up19:57
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* RST38h hates .MKV20:01
* ruskie loves .MKV20:01
* macmaN loves .MKV20:01
derfRST38h: It could be worse.20:02
* SpeedEvil hates the new BBC files from get_iplayer that don't play on the n90020:02
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RST38hderf: Yes. It could be motion JPEG.20:02
derfOr .rm!20:02
RST38hOr the freaking .FLV20:02
ruskieor .wmv20:02
RST38hActually, there is an option of .rm20:02
SpeedEvilmbmp20:02
derf.wmv isn't _that_ terrible, as a container format.20:03
ruskieand what exactly is wrong with .mkv?20:03
RST38hruskie: not supported on N900, very badly supported on Windows, makes players crash, subtitles get desynced or lost20:04
ruskiemplayer works fine...20:04
ruskieas for the rest... haven't used windows for anything other than minor work related things in last 5 years... haven't had any crashes... and the only times I got desyncs was due to crappy encoding20:05
derfIt has similar problems to Ogg... it tries to be good enough for enough different use cases that implementing it is fairly complex, and thus often wrong.20:05
RST38hOh, btw, I hate Ogg too20:06
RST38hSame issues.20:06
derfYes, I think that was my point.20:06
SpeedEvilnanny ogg?20:06
derfOf course, the alternative is to be bad at everything.20:07
derfSo it's not like you can win.20:07
RST38hirssi syndrome, too eleet to be usable :)20:07
korhojoairssi syndrome?20:07
macmaNwith a *bunch* of /scripts, irssi is quite all right aside from vertsplit windows20:07
korhojoai don't see how uh. unusable?20:08
korhojoai don't really use any other client20:08
ruskieI guess it depends on the people actually using it...20:08
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derfRST38h has just never spent serious time with BitchX.20:08
derfOr ircII.20:08
ruskieor maybe he prefers the simplicity of those clients20:08
derfI know I enjoyed the simplicity of dumping the traffic from all my channels into one window.20:09
ruskieI'll pick whatever works best for me... and so far mkv, irssi and other things haven't caused any probs20:09
korhojoai don't need vertical tabs of channels, 1337-scripts for VIP ACCESS or mouse access. i like my always-accessible client.20:10
ruskiehell avi, wmv and mp4 caused me more headaches20:10
korhojoa<3 mp4. you fickle bitch20:10
korhojoaopen one file, plays fine with all players. open another file, only plays on ps3 and n900 ?!20:10
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macmaNwhat format are the spelling dictionaries in on the n90020:21
macmaNhow do you add those20:21
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macmaNok something called ezitext it seems20:31
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macmaNwhich prompts another question, anyone come up with a list to clean up all the useless language support packages20:32
ruskieeZiText20:32
ruskiemacmaN, well the prob is if you remove them they tend to pull out quite a few required system packages as well20:32
ruskieeZiText being something propriteray used in quite a few systems that I can recall20:34
MohammadAGI wonder how I could check if a keypress is a letter and not otherwise...20:36
macmaNthe language files have been set as some sort of hard dependencies...? damn thats gayness20:37
ruskiemacmaN, everything for the basesystem is a harddependency :(20:38
ruskieand quite a few system packages also harddepend on those20:38
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macmaNok thanks to this reflash, im getting a nice apt-get remove command together to clean out useless apps20:39
ruskieI have a removelist on my User:Ruskie wiki.maemo page20:39
ruskiemight want to look at that20:39
macmaNosso-rss-feed-reader and so forth20:39
macmaNoh thanks20:39
ruskiefeel free to append things20:39
ruskienote any removing will generally remove the fremantle metapackage as well20:39
macmaNahh you repartitioned emmc?20:40
macmaNi was thinking about that20:40
ruskieyeah20:40
ruskieI did a lot of stuff20:40
macmaN32g for FAT is such a waste20:40
RST38hOh yeah: http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/19/red-bull-augmented-racing-game-lets-you-build-tracks-with-red-bu/20:40
ruskiebut sadly I had to make adjustments20:40
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ruskiedue to the overall borkedness of the setup...20:40
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RST38hderf: I am using ircii for 10+ years now20:41
RST38hderf: It is ok. Irssi and BitchX I just cannot stand, they both feel like those ancient eleet hacker BBSes to me20:41
ruskieto each their own ;)20:42
RST38hrainbowy, crufty, egomaniac shit20:42
ruskielol20:42
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dm8tbrRST38h: admit it you were just 'too lame to read bitchx.doc'! SCNR20:47
ruskiehehe20:47
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RST38hdm8: no, I was just too busy scratching my eyes out, after I looked at BitchX opening "screen"20:47
macmaNwhat the heck is skyhost20:47
RST38hskype p2p agent20:48
macmaNokay20:48
ZogGruskie, hey20:48
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dm8tbrRST38h: yes, bx is umm too much, with irssi I'm happy. but everybody is free to have their favourite, beauty of IRC20:52
RST38hthank you20:53
SpeedEvilI went from bitchX to pidgin, till I found something better.20:54
SpeedEvilTurns out pidgin hasn't irritated me enought o bother finding something better.20:54
pupnikheh20:55
pupnikirssi!20:55
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hajpupnik: more RAM... Thats my only complaint... perhaps dualcore cpu, but i guess that the problems i have with maxed out cpu is due to the software being originally written to suit PC processors, and then ported to the N900..21:04
pupnikhehe yep21:05
SpeedEvilI'd like 512M of RAM21:05
hajpupnik: gPodder for instance.. I can't really complain it eats away on the resources if I download podcasts with 3mb/sec.. ;)21:05
SpeedEvilDual-core would be nice.21:05
SpeedEvilWell - SMP dualcore21:05
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yaccWhen we are at it, a Nvidia Tegra based N9x0 with 4-5" display and at least 512MB RAM would be cool.21:08
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SpeedEvilI'm unsure.21:09
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SpeedEvilThe form factor is pretty ideal for most of my use-cases.21:09
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SpeedEvilWould I like it to fill more of the bezel - yes.21:10
macmaNwtf is up with Nokia-N900:~# apt-cache rdepends libmodest-dbus-client21:10
macmaNwhole system depends on it..21:11
SpeedEvilI was able to - PR1.1? - remove modest21:11
SpeedEvilapt-get remove modest21:11
SpeedEvilwith no issue21:11
macmaNyeah i used modest*21:12
macmaNjust wondering about the libs21:12
SpeedEvilAnd it worked?21:12
macmaNwackness21:12
SpeedEvilRemoving, I mean21:12
macmaNno, i stopped it, the rdepends list is huge21:12
macmaNit wants to kill almost everything21:13
SpeedEvilah21:13
macmaNbecause of that stupid modest library21:13
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pupnikinteresting macmaN - never used rdepends before21:19
ArkenoiBitchX is crap, and Panasync is moron.21:20
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macmaNwhat do the rc marked packages mean21:25
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alteregomacmaN: release candidate is usually what rc means in software21:33
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Venemogood afternoon21:37
ZogGhey and bye21:37
ZogGgoing to sleep21:38
eusou444ok21:38
eusou444bye21:38
Venemohey ZogG :)21:38
Venemobye21:38
eusou444welcome venemo21:38
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pupnikUS Federal Government attacks Libya ... http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/21:56
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ZogGVenemo, did you figured out with music files?22:01
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VenemoZogG, totally removing the tags, readding them, and then 'touch *' in the directory and reindexing in Banshee did it :)22:01
ZogGhmm22:02
ZogGthat's wierd22:02
ZogGbanshee sucks than =)22:02
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Venemonope22:02
ZogGyes it does =)22:02
ZogGxmss2 ftw22:02
Venemoit's actually smart. only re-indexes files that have their modification date set newer than before22:02
Venemoactually EasyTag sux for not setting the file modified date22:02
Venemomaybe there's a setting for it, but I didn't find it22:03
OkropNickdoes anyone know how to run fcron jobs as 'user', not as 'fcron' ?22:03
ZogGdon't banshee has re-index option?22:03
ZogGOkropNick maybe threr is as well group fcron22:03
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VenemoZogG, it remembers the modification dates, and only reindexes the ones with newer dates to speed up the process.22:04
ZogGVenemo lol=) just found it22:05
ZogGit took 2 seconds =)22:05
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VenemoZogG, really?22:06
ZogGeasytag -> settings-> preference -> file settings22:06
Venemoeeh.22:06
ZogGget rid of "preverse file date modification"22:06
VenemoZogG, you're a mastermind22:06
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ZogGVenemo, meh =) i'm joking man, don't get pissed =(22:07
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ZogGyou know i'm stupid =)22:07
VenemoZogG, no you are NOT stupid at all22:07
ZogGeveryone does, as i don't keep it as secret22:07
ZogGVenemo, i like being realistic =)22:07
VenemoZogG, realistically, you're a clever person. believe me.22:08
ZogGthe man who isn't a pessimist is a damned fool.22:09
ZogG- Mark Twain22:09
Venemonot true22:09
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ZogGVenemo, man you can't argue with Twain22:10
Venemohehe22:11
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ZogGi can't find quote22:12
lcukZogG, he can, but I doubt he will get a reply.22:12
ZogGhe was saying something like "pessimism is made up by people who is afraid of reality"22:12
ZogGlcuk, very grown up of you =P22:13
ZogGanyway night folks22:13
Venemonight ZogG22:14
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ZogGwait before i go22:16
ZogGwhat is the name of multitouch resist screen/22:16
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jacktheripperdid anybody have any luck running jackd on N900 ? I'm getting this http://pastebin.com/FN1ZQJf3 and nothing changes when I add the file22:30
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DocScrutinizerZogG: stantum?22:41
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: please check http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=968973&postcount=173 (missing modules in PK) and do *something* about it - e.g. kick PK maintainer's idiotic ass22:58
MohammadAGbut.. but... I don't live in Germany22:58
MohammadAGI never knew kernel-power lacked those modules...23:00
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DocScrutinizerwe *need* a sane way to *install* additional kernel modules, via some pkg or whatever23:04
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MohammadAGthe debian way is dkms23:05
MohammadAGwe lack gcc to use that23:05
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Maceranybody see an inspirion duo thing?23:09
Macerthat turns into a tablet?23:09
Maceri was wondering how it was23:09
SpeedEvilMacer: yes23:09
Macerany good?23:09
SpeedEvilMacer: not personally23:09
SpeedEvilMacer: Send me one, and I'll review it.23:09
SpeedEvil:)23:09
Macerhah23:09
Maceri was thyinking of getting one but it runs win723:09
Macerit is an n550 dual core 1.5ghz atom tho23:10
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Macerit is overpriced23:12
Macerand runs win7 so meh23:12
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: I'd think two basic things: 1) most kernel modules can live in /opt aka eMMC, as not needed for boot. 2) if those are taking too much space, and you want to get rid of some - - so what, just do it. shouldn't be hard to rm some .ko, then run debmod -a or somesuch23:15
DocScrutinizerto be more specific: if we can't have installable modules, then install 'all' modules and give user an option to get rid of useless cruft23:16
MohammadAGor package modules in extra packages23:17
DocScrutinizer"ewww, PK pkg DL is 14MB" - so WAHT?23:17
MohammadAGkernel-power-cdrom-modules23:17
DocScrutinizerwith the proper rdepends I don't see the problem either23:18
DocScrutinizerwhy has nobody done that yet? (except maybe fcam)23:18
MohammadAGfcam's implementation is stupid23:19
MohammadAGit just tries to load all modules23:19
MohammadAGstock ones will fail on kernel-power, kernel-power ones will fail on stock23:19
DocScrutinizerwe don't support stock, so nevermind23:19
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: could you help with this? some users of h-e-n got really desperate23:20
MohammadAGsure, one question though23:21
MohammadAGwhere the f is titan23:21
DocScrutinizeryou showed them playing drHouse from DVD, and they don't get their drive mounted23:21
DocScrutinizerNFC, send him here to receive his spanking, if ever you meet him23:22
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Macerhm23:25
Macerdell netbooks suck23:25
Macerthey use old single core atoms23:25
FauxFauxs/old single-core//23:31
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nox-heh yeah su2300 > atom23:32
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FauxFauxs/su2300/an abacus/23:35
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pupniki like the thinkpad x series23:35
pupniki can watch videos on mine and the cpu fan doesn't even turn on23:36
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I was using our kernel :)23:37
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: thought as much. Were the DVD/sr modules config'd by Paul, or did you do that?23:38
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I did23:40
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: I consider it necessary to host a h-e-n support pkg for PK23:41
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DocScrutinizerI don't care if that contains additional modules only, or a complete identical kernel *plus* additional modules. I'm also indifferent to whether we offer this via garage or in repo, and when repo, in which one23:43
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Macerwow23:45
Maceri dont even want this netbook23:45
DocScrutinizeror we finally sanitize the fscking PK situation23:45
DocScrutinizersanitize means, get the thing into a shape where usual kernel devels can work on it. I.E. support git23:46
DocScrutinizerthen have a few maintainers so we're not shouting "WTF is titan??!!?!?!!!"23:47
pupniklol23:47
pupnikno idea what you're on about DocScrutinizer23:47
DocScrutinizerthen stfu23:47
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Macerhaha23:48
DocScrutinizerthe ones concerned will know what I mean23:49
DocScrutinizerand I don't want to see powerkernel get abandoned and orphaned eventually, inkluding h-e-n23:49
* lcuk will remember that next time the channel turns into French or Spanish or German or some other language23:49
DocScrutinizerlcuk: ???23:50
lcuk"<DocScrutinizer> the ones concerned will know what I mean"23:50
* lcuk was joking on that23:50
lcukpeople in other languages will know too23:50
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DocScrutinizersorry, this was a comment about somebody claiming he doesn't know about the problems of powerkernel maintenance23:51
lcuk*custom kernel maint is a problem23:51
DocScrutinizerso I gather he's not the typical candidate to take concern about maintaining PK23:52
Macerare there no 64bit atoms?23:53
Macer:)23:53
ShadowJKI have two23:53
ShadowJKAtom330 and N51023:53
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FireFlyhmm23:56
FireFlyis it possible to change the sound volume on the N900 from terminal?23:57
DocScrutinizerI'd like to invite interested individuals to ##mhd, to join in to a h-e-n centric discussion how to get a sane PK-alike thing that has proper maintenance23:57
DocScrutinizerlcuk: javispedro: Jaffa: donno who else ^^^23:57

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