IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2011-02-20

jacekowski	if it's a phone	00:00
ieatlint	or i guess 1777 for the sticky bit	00:00
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MohammadAG	meh	00:01
MohammadAG	Guess I'll have to reinstall	00:01
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MohammadAG	which is something I'm not doing /me goes back to fixing	00:02
timeless	http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7673591.stm	00:04
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* ieatlint sues xenu		00:07
comawhite	lolcat: I heard from someone that it's the paid one that gets it not the free one =\	00:09
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trumee	timeless, lol	00:10
MohammadAG	hmm	00:10
MohammadAG	why does it show 100% used on /	00:10
MohammadAG	when size is 114GB and Used is 109GB	00:11
timeless	trumee: the only entity you can't sue in us federal court is the US Gov, it has to consent to be sued	00:11
timeless	although it seems that if you try to sue god, you'll be dismissed	00:11
trumee	timeless, crazy	00:12
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timeless	note that the court was ok with the target of the suit :)	00:14
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timeless	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_United_States in case people are curious about the other part	00:17
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: 5% root exclusive?	00:23
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DocScrutinizer	timeless: I'm sure I don't want to know more than I do, about US' fucked up justice and laws	00:24
timeless	DocScrutinizer: soverign immunity is a fairly standard thing	00:25
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timeless	try suing a king in his country..	00:26
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, good point	00:26
MohammadAG	my / is actually full then	00:27
MohammadAG	wow	00:28
MohammadAG	that was the cause	00:28
MohammadAG	thanks DocScrutinizer	00:28
Corsac	timeless: must be the reason why I'm king of my castle	00:28
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javispedro	so you can't use god because it has sovereign inmunity?	00:53
javispedro	*imm	00:53
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer, better than the rest of the planet, still, at least. :P	00:57
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* javispedro thought God was american after all ;)		00:58
timeless	javispedro: you can sue god	00:59
timeless	it's just that the courts will more or less laugh you out	00:59
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timeless	note that foreign sovereigns don't have immunity :)	00:59
timeless	(china just got sued)	00:59
ieatlint	you actually can sue the US gov for some things	01:01
ieatlint	people have done it, for instance, to remove "in god we trust" from our money	01:01
timeless	right, when it waves immunity	01:01
jacekowski	ieatlint: well, then you are suing yourself	01:02
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ieatlint	uh, pretty sure the US gov didn't wave its right there	01:02
jacekowski	ieatlint: isn't it that you are suing "the people" then or something	01:02
ieatlint	hmm, an interesting distinction, perhaps	01:03
ieatlint	the gov lawyers typically represent "the people"	01:03
timeless	http://web.archive.org/web/20071016110205/http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/06/12/state/n153942D73.DTL	01:03
timeless	is the suit ieatlint references	01:04
ieatlint	yeah, he also did the pledge of allegiance, as referenced there	01:04
ieatlint	but non-god related suits are common.. we infamously challenge the legality of laws all the time, for instance (like gay marriage bans, for recent headlines)	01:05
ieatlint	i think there are just restrictions on suing for damages	01:06
ieatlint	injunctions are allowed methinks	01:06
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GAN900	ieatlint, or used to.	01:10
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GAN900	(represent the people)	01:10
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ieatlint	when was that? :P	01:10
GAN900	ieatlint, right after the Constitution was first ratified to right before the Whiskey Rebellion	01:12
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GAN900	Potentially arguably under the Articles of Confederation, too.	01:13
GAN900	But that was a different government.	01:13
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ieatlint	hah	01:13
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till\|	anyone got he .deb file for the pidgin-n800-led plugin? the repository seems to be down :/	01:14
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DocScrutinizer51	~ping	02:00
infobot	~pong	02:00
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Ken-Young	Worst. Video. Game. Ever.	02:01
DocScrutinizer	pong?	02:01
Ken-Young	~ping ~pong with infobot.	02:01
infobot	pong ~pong with infobot.	02:01
DocScrutinizer	;-P	02:02
DocScrutinizer	~pong	02:02
infobot	~ping	02:02
DocScrutinizer	~ding	02:02
infobot	dong	02:02
Ken-Young	~foo	02:02
infobot	i heard foo is bar	02:02
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DocScrutinizer	backup-menu is fsckdup, booting with kbd slide open spits out some cryptic msg "cp /usr/lib/liblzo /tmp/usr/lib error" or the like, then device shuts down :-/	02:04
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DocScrutinizer	luckily it boots flawlessly when slide closed	02:06
derf	"If it hurts, don't do that."	02:07
DocScrutinizer	meh, going to update it	02:08
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korhojoa	DocScrutinizer: it uses lzo to compress the backups, i guess	02:19
korhojoa	and for some reason, it's not available?	02:20
DocScrutinizer	yep, but I think it did that before, and I also haven't updated it or otherwise changed sth with liblzo or backup-menu	02:20
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DocScrutinizer	well, updated it now, it installed liblzo and up'ed fro 0.60 to 0.63, now it works again	02:21
DocScrutinizer	strange	02:21
DocScrutinizer	ooops 0.62	02:22
DocScrutinizer	says menu screen	02:22
DocScrutinizer	still no way to bootup a normal system with slide open	02:23
Juozapas	how to take a screenshot ? cant remember keys combination	02:25
psycho_oreos	Ctrl+ Shift+ P	02:25
Juozapas	thx	02:25
psycho_oreos	nw	02:25
DocScrutinizer	I mean, how hard can it be to quit the backup-menu process same why on pressing enter that it would when slide is closed	02:25
DocScrutinizer	s/why/way	02:26
korhojoa	DocScrutinizer, yeah. that would be nice	02:27
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Juozapas	maybe there is grr developer here?	02:31
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Ken-Young	Juozapas, What is grr?	02:31
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Juozapas	program for google reader	02:32
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Juozapas	http://maemo.org/packages/view/grr/	02:33
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Sc0rpius	when was the last update pushed?	02:35
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Sc0rpius	wrong channel anyway	02:40
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lolcat	croppa: :(	03:59
lolcat	comawhite: :(	03:59
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comawhite	yeah?	04:02
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rbrito	Hi there. I recently (well, quite recently) got me a N900, since it is based on Debian (well, I am a Debian Maintainer for about 3 years) and I would like to hack my packages.	05:17
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luke-jr	rbrito: it's not based on Debian really.	05:26
luke-jr	rbrito: also, Maemo is dead, and only 45% open source	05:26
chx	really?	05:27
chx	i thought much higher percentage :/	05:27
luke-jr	well, unlike earlier models, at least N900 has most of the drivers open	05:28
luke-jr	only exception is 3D accel I think	05:29
luke-jr	so … you can run Gentoo! :P	05:29
luke-jr	or port Debian	05:29
chx	luke-jr: http://wiki.maemo.org/Port_an_existing_Debian_package this pretty much makes it a Debian based system isnt it	05:29
luke-jr	chx: it's a dpkg/apt-based system, but it doesn't use Debian's packages	05:29
chx	well, Debian packages can be modified to run, no?	05:29
luke-jr	due to its closed nature, it's also unmaintainable by anyone but Nokia, who have terminated it	05:29
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luke-jr	you can take Debian package sources, and build them for it	05:30
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rbrito	Is there any way of cross-compiling things without putting "alien" programs on my system? I would like, as much as possible, to use what the distributions have so far, and, if not available, upload them to Debian's repository...	05:33
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rbrito	luke-jr, Well, I bought it thinking that it were. :-(	05:37
luke-jr	rbrito: somehow N900 gets misrepresented a lot, without Nokia actually false advertising :/	05:37
luke-jr	well, not just N900	05:38
luke-jr	all the earlier models too	05:38
rbrito	luke-jr, well, since I already bought it, I am willing to squeeze the most that I can from it.	05:38
budfive	It the closest you can get with phones you can buy, though	05:38
budfive	by far	05:38
luke-jr	rbrito: want to use Gentoo with me? :P	05:38
luke-jr	budfive: NITs are not phones, kthx	05:39
budfive	what's NIT?	05:39
chx	nokia internet tablet	05:39
rbrito	luke-jr, I bought it for the main purpose of being a smartphone, not an internet tablet. :-)	05:39
chx	huh	05:39
budfive	haha. ok	05:39
luke-jr	rbrito: then you're likely to be VERY disappointed :P	05:40
chx	it's an internet tablet with a phone crudely bolted on	05:40
rbrito	I actually don't even know what is an internet tablet...	05:40
budfive	it's a phone :)	05:40
luke-jr	rbrito: all the earlier models don't even support GSM ;)	05:40
rbrito	luke-jr, yes, that I knew... But not much else.	05:40
luke-jr	oh well, it works if you want a combination half-decent phone, half-decent camera, half-decent GPS :p	05:41
rbrito	Anyway, I am interested in writing some software for this thing. What would you people recommend for someone that already packages stuff for debian proper?	05:41
luke-jr	but not if you want a proper smartphone, or quality camera, or useful GPS	05:41
luke-jr	rbrito: just use Qt and it should work :p	05:41
rbrito	luke-jr, I am interested to know about the peculiarities of the packaging...	05:42
budfive	rbrito: you can build packages in much the same way you'd build them for a real Debian box	05:42
budfive	rbrito: download the sdk from nokia, and you're set	05:42
rbrito	budfive, what about the recommended cross-compilation environment?	05:42
luke-jr	rbrito: the real problem is that Maemo is unmaintained, and someone needs to replace it	05:42
budfive	rbrito: yes. get that and it's stock enough	05:42
rbrito	budfive, how much of the SDK is already (approximately) available as packages?	05:43
budfive	rbrito: the sdk itself isn't a package as I recall. It uses scratchbox	05:44
rbrito	budfive, for instance, they say that I should download stuff using a script, but I see that Debian already has scratchbox. Is there anything different from Nokia's scratchbox from the Debian packaged version?	05:45
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rbrito	I would like to avoid having as many packages as possible from places outside...	05:45
budfive	rbrito: yeah, I know how you feel. As I recall using the scratchbox from debian directly didn't work for me. Let me check. It's been a little while	05:46
rbrito	budfive, Ah, thanks for that clarification.	05:46
rbrito	I see that Debian has scratchbox 2.0 packaged.	05:46
rbrito	(Actually, the version is 2.0-3.1).	05:47
rbrito	budfive, what's the basic procedure for generating a package, once I have the software written? Just prepare my package as usual and build it with scratchbox?	05:47
budfive	rbrito: yes	05:48
budfive	rbrito: the "sdk" is scratchbox + debs of the core system	05:48
budfive	rbrito: so you build a package normally from inside scratchbox	05:48
budfive	rbrito: I don't have it installed anymore, so I'm looking on the web. Can't find it for some reason	05:49
rbrito	budfive, great. I wish that the instructions were as clear as you... :-)	05:49
budfive	rbrito: oh. I DO have it installed :)	05:51
rbrito	budfive, Does the SDK contain non-free software?	05:51
budfive	yes	05:51
rbrito	I see that I would have to accept an EULA... :-(	05:51
budfive	rbrito: as others have said, it uses apt, dpkg, but it's NOT debian	05:51
budfive	yes	05:51
budfive	it's not ideal	05:51
rbrito	I would like to avoid that, as much as possible.	05:51
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budfive	you'll have to forfeit much of the stock functionality then	05:52
rbrito	budfive, Oh, I thought that it was an exaggeration of not being Debian. :-)	05:52
rbrito	I see... I think that I will just download it, then and have a dirty system. :-(	05:52
budfive	rbrito: it's not THAT dirty	05:53
rbrito	What do the non-free parts include? Anything essential for a basic "Hello, World" application?	05:53
budfive	everything goes into /scratchbox	05:53
budfive	so it bypasses the package manager, but you still know where everything is	05:53
rbrito	budfive, Well, less bad.	05:53
budfive	yes	05:53
budfive	highly unideal	05:53
budfive	rbrito: the "normal" installation method of the sdk grabs a huge blob of packages from nokia. the blob contains some open and some not open things	05:54
budfive	rbrito: the stuff you need for a "hello world" is open, but you'll have to get it all yourself	05:54
budfive	rbrito: but you can always run stock debian or gentoo or whatever	05:54
budfive	rbrito: you'll lose much of the phone-ness of the device, though	05:55
rbrito	budfive, I see... :-( In my general workflow, I usually grab stuff through an approx cache, so that I can install the software in many computers that I have here.	05:55
rbrito	The phone part for me is essential...	05:56
budfive	rbrito: yeah. you really should just grab the sdk to see for yourself what's open and what isn't	05:56
rbrito	I guess that I will cope with things and just grab that SDK.	05:56
budfive	supposedly you can run FSO,SHR on the n900 if you want. You'll have a phone, but not a very nice one	05:57
rbrito	Thanks for the clear answers that I could not find right from the sites, BTW.	05:57
budfive	rbrito: yeah. It's not as open as could be, but it's by far the closest you can get without rolling everything yourself	05:57
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rbrito	budfive, Yes, I saw that the other options were much worse regarding openness... :-(	05:58
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budfive	ever looked at the openmoko? :)	05:58
rbrito	And given that we have git repositories of some of the things, that's great.	05:58
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rbrito	budfive, I tried to buy a Freerunner, but I couldn't find one here where I live.	05:59
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rbrito	Oh, a silly question: what does osso stand for? :-)	05:59
budfive	no idea	05:59
rbrito	I reached the same conclusion. :-)	06:00
rbrito	Open Source ...?	06:00
rbrito	:-)	06:00
budfive	rbrito: I gotta go. good luck	06:00
rbrito	OK, just installed xserver-xephyr.	06:01
rbrito	budfive, thank you so very much for your clear answers.	06:01
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DocScrutinizer	can somebody explain to me the two fork() in there please http://paste.debian.net/108251/	07:13
DocScrutinizer	why two?	07:13
DocScrutinizer	my suspicion is in direction daemon, but I don't really see what it does rsp why it's needed	07:15
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DocScrutinizer	I understand it forks and parent waits for child to exit. child forks again, then parent of that fork exits	07:17
ds3	I think the goal there is to make sure init owns the process	07:18
DocScrutinizer	ooh, how does that happen?	07:18
ds3	if I read that correctly, it causes it to be considered orphaned which causes an assignment to init	07:18
DocScrutinizer	yeah, that'S probably it	07:19
ds3	normally, if you fork(), you have to wait() on it or it'll be stuck in the Z state	07:19
DocScrutinizer	thanks	07:19
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DocScrutinizer	I missed to paste the setsid(); as last line. This makes it clear	07:32
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DocScrutinizer	actually setsid(); close(0); close(1); close(2); do_something()	07:33
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ds3	yes, that'd make more sense	07:38
DocScrutinizer	thanks again	07:39
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DocScrutinizer	just one more question: which #include imports function 'event' ?	07:43
DocScrutinizer	sched.h ?	07:44
DocScrutinizer	or is that a reserved word in c?	07:49
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DocScrutinizer	(void)event;	07:52
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DocScrutinizer	seems I can't find it in #include <errno.h> #include <fcntl.h> #include <sched.h> #include <signal.h> #include <unistd.h> #include <stdlib.h> #include <sys/mman.h> #include <sys/wait.h>	07:54
budfive	run only the preprocessor with 'gcc -E'. then look at the output to see where it came from	07:58
DocScrutinizer	hehe, yeah I'd do that if I were compiling this little progie, but I'm just reading source atm	07:59
budfive	grepping my /usr/include give many matches :)	08:00
DocScrutinizer	tooo many	08:00
DocScrutinizer	already did that	08:00
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budfive	cscope says.....	08:03
budfive	lots of various event variables, but no global "event" function	08:03
budfive	you suspect it's a system thing? not X or gui or anything?	08:03
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DocScrutinizer	void quit_loop(int event) { running = 0; (void)event; }	08:09
DocScrutinizer	signal-handler	08:10
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DocScrutinizer	so I guess I know what it does, but I have no idea where it comes from	08:10
budfive	DocScrutinizer: (void)event is a function call?	08:11
DocScrutinizer	looks like to me	08:11
budfive	errrr	08:11
budfive	sure?	08:11
budfive	c or c++?	08:11
DocScrutinizer	well, not exactly a function, as I'd expect event(); then	08:11
DocScrutinizer	c	08:12
DocScrutinizer	could be a #define as well	08:12
DocScrutinizer	:-S	08:12
budfive	not a function call	08:12
budfive	it's valid C by itself, but (void)event; does nothing	08:13
budfive	you need () to make it a function call	08:13
DocScrutinizer	it's most likely a call to scheduler to tell "I'm done" without really exiting the process	08:13
budfive	if it was a macro, the "int event" argument would be expanded to something weird	08:13
budfive	is the full source open? can I have a look if it is?	08:14
DocScrutinizer	oooooh	08:14
DocScrutinizer	it's a parameter - darn	08:14
budfive	yah	08:14
DocScrutinizer	I should stop and take some chill time	08:14
budfive	I can imagine some trickery where it's also a global something and the compiler can resolve the overload, but more likely it doesn't do anything	08:15
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DocScrutinizer	it's probably the standard way to exit a signal-handler	08:16
DocScrutinizer	calback as parameter to a callback :-)	08:16
budfive	(void)event doesn't do anything	08:16
budfive	give that snippet to a compiler	08:16
budfive	it may as well not be there	08:16
DocScrutinizer	ummm	08:16
budfive	ah	08:16
budfive	no	08:16
budfive	i get it	08:17
budfive	it's to prevent a "variable unused" warning	08:17
budfive	!	08:17
frals	hmm, wonder why http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/fmms/ shows 992k downloads but adding "http://maemo.org/download-stats2/fetch.php?unixname=fmms&os=fremantle gives 1.1M	08:17
DocScrutinizer	wut?	08:17
budfive	(void)event doesn't do anything	08:17
budfive	but without it the compiler would warn you that the "event" variable (argument to the function) isn't used	08:17
budfive	look at the -Wunused parameters to gcc	08:18
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DocScrutinizer	wait a minute (/me reading man 2 signal) if ( signal(SIGTERM, quit_loop) == SIG_ERR )	08:22
DocScrutinizer	http://paste.debian.net/108254/	08:23
budfive	dkogan@smart:/tmp$ gcc -Wextra -Wall -o tst.o -c tst.c	08:27
budfive	dkogan@smart:/tmp$ md5sum tst.o	08:27
budfive	e2659ec7813dd12c84f260f514ad06e7 tst.o	08:27
budfive	dkogan@smart:/tmp$ perl -pi -e 's/$void$event//g' tst.c	08:27
budfive	dkogan@smart:/tmp$ gcc -Wextra -Wall -o tst.o -c tst.c	08:27
budfive	tst.c: In function ‘quit_loop’:	08:27
budfive	tst.c:38: warning: unused parameter ‘event’	08:27
budfive	dkogan@smart:/tmp$ md5sum tst.o	08:27
budfive	e2659ec7813dd12c84f260f514ad06e7 tst.o	08:27
budfive	dkogan@smart:/tmp$	08:27
budfive	I compile your file. then I remove that line and compile it again	08:27
budfive	both times the generated output is the same (identical md5 hashes)	08:28
budfive	but without the (void)event, there's a warning	08:28
DocScrutinizer	heh, OK :-)	08:30
DocScrutinizer	thanks	08:30
DocScrutinizer	c is really friggin weird, you can write complete nonsense	08:35
budfive	yep	08:36
budfive	ask the compiler when in doubt :)	08:36
budfive	also for this particular instance, __attribute__((unused)) is much more appropriate, and less obscure	08:37
DocScrutinizer	well, this seems to be a dirty hack anyway, even signal() is explicitly deprecated	08:38
DocScrutinizer	btw it's from bootmenu, if you wonder	08:38
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DocScrutinizer	bootmenu itself is similarly weird, the examples make no proper use of the bootmenu.d/* logic	08:39
budfive	sounds about right	08:39
DocScrutinizer	i.e. bootmenu.conf iterates over all the files in bootmenu.d/* to collect menu items. But the examples bootmenu.conf.N8x0.example which are supposed to go to this bootmenu.d/ directory don't use the index var $menu_count as in >>eval MENU_${menu_count}_NAME=\$ITEM_NAME<<, rather they use hardcoded MENU_2_NAME="Internal MMC card, partition 2, ext2"	08:44
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DocScrutinizer	and backupmenu is using this bootmenu.d/backupmenu.conf to never return and instead drawing its own menu :-P	08:51
DocScrutinizer	an incredible mess	08:52
DocScrutinizer	and all this headache just to implement[2011-02-20 01:25:59] <DocScrutinizer> I mean, how hard can it be to quit the backup-menu process same why on pressing enter that it would when slide is closed <korhojoa> DocScrutinizer, yeah. that would be nice	08:54
DocScrutinizer	at least I can understand now why robbiethe1st hasn't implemented this improvement-request yet :-D	08:56
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robbiethe1st	:D I love this phone. 13 web pages, 15 windows, and it's still fairly snappy.	09:48
toggles	android?	09:52
toggles	or wp7?	09:52
robbiethe1st	Maemo, of course	09:53
robbiethe1st	silly.	09:53
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Pr0n	hi	10:27
lolcat	hi	10:27
Pr0n	i need some help with my nokia n900	10:27
kerio	who doesn't	10:27
Pr0n	lol	10:28
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DocScrutinizer	Nokia is publishing linux driver for moorestown: https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/1/5/31 --- Meego device not based on OMAP?	10:33
robbiethe1st	Pr0n: what's up?	10:34
Pr0n	trying to get bluemaemo working	10:34
Pr0n	says i need some packages	10:34
robbiethe1st	Devel's enabled, right?	10:35
Pr0n	whats that	10:35
Pr0n	probally not	10:35
Pr0n	efl-core , python2.5-efl-core , python2.5-ecore , python2.5-edbus , python2.5-evas , python2.5-edje	10:36
Pr0n	thats what it says are missing packages	10:37
RST38h	Doc: this may not be related to the upcoming device in any way	10:37
RST38h	Doc: Just to the work on Meego that they are supposedly doing with Intel	10:38
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budfive	wait... the upcoming Meego device is NOT based on an Intel chip? I thought that was Intel's whole angle	10:43
psycho_oreos	upcoming meego device from whom? nokia?	10:44
budfive	is there some other?	10:44
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budfive	I haven't been paying very close attention	10:44
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slonopotamus	X-Fade: https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/extras-cauldron-builds/2011-February/ there are some troubles with curl :/ i think it needs to be removed	10:45
psycho_oreos	intel released their own tablet which is intel atom based, fujitsu will be releasing their netbook with meego, that's going to be atom based. nokia killed their own n9 which may run on atom processor but the devel work was ported to n900 as initial releases of n9 were arm based	10:46
slonopotamus	X-Fade: and no, i didn't reupload it	10:46
psycho_oreos	err nokia killed their n9 hardware :p	10:46
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budfive	they killed the n9? The main announcement they made said they will be releasing a meego something this year. That's not assumed to be the n9?	10:47
psycho_oreos	they do intend to release a meego device but nobody knows the ramifications, nokia signed a deal to be microsoft's bitch	10:48
psycho_oreos	that's old news	10:48
budfive	yeah. sure.	10:49
slonopotamus	https://garage.maemo.org/builder/fremantle/libnet-smtp-ssl-perl_1.01-2maemo1/i386.build.log.FAILED.txt any ideas what to do with it?	10:52
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divan	Guys, which WebOS games are perfectly playable on n900? I.e. doesn't require multitouch, etc. NFSU is the first example/	11:53
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jacekowski	divan: it's all in wiki	12:26
sezuan_	Is it possible to buy the games without a WebOS device?	12:27
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jacekowski	yeah, torrents	12:28
sezuan	that's not the answer that I wanted to hear ;)	12:29
psycho_oreos	well you asked for it :p	12:30
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sezuan	that's true.	12:32
demute_	I accidently removed the package mp-fremantle-pr, can someone please download it for me and send it? I will give you free google searches for the rest of your life	12:35
psycho_oreos	free google search? lolwut	12:36
demute_	:)	12:36
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psycho_oreos	http://maemo.org/packages/view/mp-fremantle-generic-pr/	12:38
demute_	how could I miss that? thank you!	12:39
jacekowski	you can just apt-get it	12:39
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demute_	jacekowski: it's not that simple	12:40
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psycho_oreos	it actually is pretty simple	12:41
psycho_oreos	so now where my free google search for my entire lifetime? ;P	12:41
psycho_oreos	s/where/wheres/	12:42
demute_	psycho_oreos: here's your free search: htpp://www.gooogle.com	12:42
infobot	psycho_oreos meant: so now wheres my free google search for my entire lifetime? ;P	12:42
psycho_oreos	demute_, lol fail	12:42
* psycho_oreos is so gonna bash.org that :p		12:43
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psycho_oreos	http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=mp-fremantle-pr	12:44
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demute_	where the hell is the download button? ;)	12:47
* psycho_oreos isn't going to bother answering that because he got ripped off ;p		12:49
* demute_ feels stupid but hey come on, has anyone else tried to remove that package? (dont)		12:50
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* psycho_oreos has removed that package in favour of CSSU, hence mp-fremantle-community-pr		12:51
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phryk	hi there	13:15
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phryk	/home/user/MyDocs gets mounted readonly, this is set in /etc/fstab (-rodir). I tried deleting that part and rebooting, but the system restores the old fstab...	13:17
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trumee	phryk, perhaps it need an fsck	13:18
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demute_	phryk: look in /etc/event.d/rcS-late, that file overwrites fstab	13:20
biston	anybody here knows how wifi-switcher's popup is changed from interactive to passive ?	13:20
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biston	i'm trying to do the same to ssh-switcher but it's the same command in both scripts wifi.sh and ssh-status.sh	13:21
biston	print_msg "SSH started" "OK" & print_msg "WLAN DISABLED" "OK"	13:21
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biston	i thought it was here where it's modified	13:21
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xDaReaperx	Hi is the Community SSU stable to install ?	13:28
xDaReaperx	i checked the Wiki , i was a bit confused	13:29
Ken-Young	xDaReaperx, I think the official answer is no, but I've installed it and have had no problems (that haven't been fixed).	13:29
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Ken-Young	The initial version messed up some keyboard shortcuts like cntrl+shift+P = screengrab, but that was fixed a white ago.	13:30
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frals	happy bday lcuk! \o/	13:52
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* jonwil has run out of things worth reverse engineering		14:13
lcuk	thanks frals \o/	14:16
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lcuk	jonwil, then forward engineer some fixed and functionality into liqbase for me please :)	14:16
jonwil	what do you need? :P	14:17
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SpeedEvil	jonwil: What about the first level - simply replacing the little wifi widget with one that shows signal leve?	14:17
lcuk	jonwil, I need most of the stuff to work	14:17
* lcuk has poor fingers		14:17
jonwil	I tried to reverse engineer the relavent bits of the wifi widget and got nowhere	14:18
jonwil	due to all the cruft that is libconnui	14:18
lcuk	jonwil, on MeeGo, there is a component called connman	14:18
lcuk	it does not support ad-hoc wifi	14:18
lcuk	but the lower levels do	14:18
lcuk	there has been an open bug about it since moblin days	14:19
jonwil	Thats on MeeGo, not Maemo. Not going touching MeeGo at all :)	14:19
lcuk	and brought into meego tracker	14:19
lcuk	thats a shame, lots of r&d happening there :)	14:19
SpeedEvil	jonwil: ah	14:19
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jonwil	I was planning to reverse engineer the dialer app (at least anything external it talks to that isn't a GUI call or a basic system function) but I never got anywhere because its far too complex	14:20
jonwil	even the Notification app was too complex	14:21
SpeedEvil	:/	14:21
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jonwil	the connectivity UI is too hard to reverse engineer (i.e. the status bar widgets, control panels etc etc etc)	14:22
SpeedEvil	Annoying.	14:22
* lcuk does not like reverse engineering and will just try to build stuff		14:22
SpeedEvil	I wonder what'd be involved in ripping out the connectivity stuff.	14:23
jonwil	Even the SMS libraries (libsms etc) proved too hard	14:23
jonwil	do you mean ripping out the CSD daemon and the cell stack	14:23
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jonwil	or the ICD daemon and the internet bits	14:23
SpeedEvil	The IP connectivity, and just using 'internet is up' and 'internet is down' hooks	14:23
jonwil	or both?	14:23
SpeedEvil	I suppose also too involved?	14:23
jonwil	so you mean replacing the ICD daemon?	14:24
jonwil	That might be possible	14:24
SpeedEvil	yes	14:24
jonwil	figuring out what talks to it	14:24
SpeedEvil	So you can do stuff like have it connect through a VPN, and know it's connected, or tether backards, or ...	14:24
jonwil	Some of that could be done by writing new ICD network plugins AFAIK	14:25
SpeedEvil	hmm	14:25
jonwil	The hardest part is going to be identifying what the icd daemon and its plugins expose to the upper layers	14:27
Venemo_N900	jonwil: what's the status of cbsms?	14:27
jonwil	going nowhere	14:27
jonwil	see bug 8347 for the details of why	14:27
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8347 Cell Broadcast Feature not available	14:27
SpeedEvil	:/	14:27
jonwil	Also see bug 10870	14:28
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/10870 Open source libsms and libsms-utils	14:28
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jonwil	so yeah replacing the ICD daemon is not at all easy	14:31
jonwil	The fact that the icd2-doc package is so great does help though	14:31
jonwil	I suspect the GPRS plugin would be one of the hard parts	14:32
trumee	how can i use lxp injection driver on boot-up. I placed the module load script in /etc/event.d but lost the list of APs in the applet	14:32
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jonwil	figuring out what it talks to in the CSD GPRS plugin	14:32
jonwil	and figuring out what it exposes to higher levels	14:32
trumee	atm i have to manually load the wlan drivers after bootup	14:33
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trumee	and lxp drivers seem to give less choppiness for sip	14:34
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trumee	Perhaps i should load the drivers after the applet which enumerates the AP has loaded	14:35
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jonwil	so yeah all the things I wanted to reverse engineer have hit brick walls	14:37
lolcat	Why?	14:38
jonwil	too complex to reverse engineer	14:38
jonwil	at least for me	14:38
jonwil	maybe an ARM Linux ASM guru might have more luck	14:39
jonwil	but I have given up on most of these things for now	14:39
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jonwil	If http://wiki.maemo.org/index.php?title=Open_development/Why_the_closed_packages#List_of_outstanding_requests_that_are_still_relevant leads anywhere then maybe I will use anything comming out of that as a way forward	14:39
jonwil	to try and reverse engineer more stuff	14:39
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ruskie	jonwil, you sure are optimistic...	14:41
jonwil	Someone was going to push that through to the right people at Nokia	14:41
jonwil	I forget who off the top of my head	14:42
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ruskie	considering the great success this had in the past...	14:42
Venemo_N900	jonwil: I thought you had it working	14:42
jonwil	nope, I dont have Cell Broadcast working	14:42
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jonwil	I am able to dump the low level packets comming from the cellular modem	14:42
jonwil	and observe proper Cell Broadcast messages in those packets	14:42
jonwil	but there is a bug inside libsms/csd-sms that prevents things from getting through the cell stack	14:43
Venemo_N900	jonwil: so what stops us from creating a cell broadcast displayer desktop widget for example?	14:43
jonwil	well getting through the stack properly	14:43
jonwil	the issue is that talking to the cell modem by bypassing the cell stack wont work	14:43
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Venemo_N900	so how did it work for you?	14:45
jonwil	I was dumping the data flow manually with tcpdump	14:45
jonwil	and getting a raw dump of data comming from the cell modem	14:45
jonwil	not an option for real-world use	14:45
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Venemo_N900	mhm	14:46
jonwil	Our only option is to work WITH the CSD daemon	14:46
jonwil	which means we either need Nokia to help	14:46
jonwil	or we need someone with guru ARM ASM skills to step forward and help reverse engineer stuff	14:46
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jonwil	especially all the functions in libisi and elsewhere that need to be reverse engineered	14:46
jonwil	i.e. figuring out how to call them	14:48
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jonwil	unfortunatly, ARM ASM gurus seem to be thin on the ground around here :P	14:48
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jonwil	Also note that I do NOT intend to use any hacks to get this working such as binary patching the closed source library (or in-memory patching it)	14:50
jonwil	Those are hacks and are not the Right Way to do things :)	14:51
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Venemo_N900	jonwil: so find a Nokia employee who wants to leave the company because of "black friday" and worked on Maemo and has access to the code	14:54
jonwil	I dont particularly want to break the law either (and using code released by a Nokia employee without permission from Nokia breaks the law, copyright and probably also trade secrets also)	14:55
psycho_oreos	truth be told that in cases like these, nokia needs a big slap across its face for pissing off the maemo community. Granted, they may file up complaints/lawsuits if their rights were demolished	14:58
jonwil	I think really all the arguments for not open sourcing a fair whack more of Maemo have vanished (except for the argument about the time taken to do so)	14:59
* psycho_oreos thinks qwerty12 reverse engineered that fmtx thingy		14:59
jonwil	There are still legitimate reasons not to open source some parts of the system	15:00
jonwil	including BME	15:00
psycho_oreos	the irony is that many owners are facing their devices soon to be out of warranty	15:00
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psycho_oreos	that and when things break without much hope, they are left inevitably to either sell or throw it away	15:01
jonwil	but all the reasons for not open sourcing, say, the cellular stack or the internet connectivity daemon or any number of other bits of middle-ware have all gone away now IMO	15:01
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MaKa	Is there any way to restore deleted files or folders in maemo?	15:02
psycho_oreos	there are testdisk and the like	15:02
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MaKa	but i don't fine that package in devel	15:03
MaKa	any idea?	15:03
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psycho_oreos	if you haven't got it installed and the files you want to recover sits inside the rootfs or /home/user, your chances may become very minimal	15:04
psycho_oreos	especially rootfs	15:04
MaKa	i deleted the folder espeak inside /opt which was being used by mstardict	15:05
MaKa	though i have now reinstalled all these mstardict,qstardict,espeak and espeak caller,i still cant use the mstardict	15:05
MaKa	The error being shown is failed to load espeak-data	15:06
psycho_oreos	unfortunately /opt is bind to /home/user. You might be able to umount /home/user in theory and then dd that partition.	15:07
psycho_oreos	so you've accidentally deleted the files and directories and you've tried to reinstall those?	15:07
MaKa	yeah,absolutely..	15:08
* psycho_oreos facepalms		15:08
MaKa	:P	15:08
MaKa	the thing is before i deleted the directory,the espeak installation was removed..	15:09
MaKa	But still i cud see the direcftory inside opt so i tried to free up some space..	15:09
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psycho_oreos	consider the chance of recovering deleted files very very slim	15:10
MaKa	:(	15:10
psycho_oreos	read what file recovery is supposed to do	15:11
MaKa	but now i re installed all the utilities.. but no luck..	15:11
psycho_oreos	indeed, now go read what file recovery actually does	15:11
MaKa	i could see the folder /opt/espeak/data been created newly. but there is not phontab file/folder in it..	15:12
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MaKa	yeah will do that..	15:12
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MaKa	where can i find the working version of advanced power monitor?	15:16
MaKa	I find the one in repo is not working and it just is of 14kb size which seems to be weird..	15:17
psycho_oreos	its supposed to be working, if not then you can try reinstalling it which should bring the battery icon display up	15:18
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fwix	hello	15:52
fwix	I need a little help to create a .deb package	15:53
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fwix	I've generate tar.gz using py2deb	15:53
fwix	and installed sdk on my station (debian)	15:54
fwix	what have I to do now to generate on my station a .deb from the files generated on my n900 ?	15:55
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RST38h	Well. Moo.	15:58
pupnik_	mm	15:59
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LjL	i don't suppose anyone has GeoClue packages that work under OS2008 (given there are for OS2007)?	16:00
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pupnik	the e71 is still a great phne	16:29
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trx	how can i check which packages are available to autobuilder?	16:38
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Venemo_N900	hi	16:48
Venemo_N900	DocScrutinizer: could you please refresh my memory about the keyboard lights? (communi doesn't keep logs :( )	16:49
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MohammadAG	Venemo_N900, what about them?	16:54
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: how to turn them off from the command line	16:54
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: DocScrutinizer told me on my previous train journey	16:55
MohammadAG	umm	16:55
MohammadAG	for x in 1 2 3 4 5 6; do echo 0 > /sys/class/leds/lp5523:kb$x/brightness; done	16:56
MohammadAG	I guess	16:56
Venemo_N900	btw, I've just noticed that the slider of my N900 became twisted :(	16:57
MohammadAG	you may want to disable engine3	16:57
MohammadAG	echo disabled > /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0032/engine3_mode	16:58
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Venemo_N900	what's that?	16:58
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MohammadAG	the keyboard lights engine	17:01
Venemo_N900	oh.	17:01
MohammadAG	echo disabled > /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0032/engine3_mode && for x in 1 2 3 4 5 6; do echo 0 > /sys/class/leds/lp5523:kb$x/brightness; done	17:01
Venemo_N900	ok	17:01
Venemo_N900	could you please pastebin this?	17:02
MohammadAG	remember that mce will turn on the engine everytime the screen's locked, so without a daemon, it's impossible to keep it off	17:02
Venemo_N900	np	17:02
Venemo_N900	last time I just modprobe -r'd the leds-whatever module	17:02
MohammadAG	http://pastebin.com/FA5SRAB3	17:03
MohammadAG	ah	17:03
MohammadAG	sec	17:03
MohammadAG	leds-lp5523	17:03
MohammadAG	that will also disable the RGB light	17:03
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Venemo_N900	yeah	17:05
Venemo_N900	thanks MohammadAG	17:05
MohammadAG	yw	17:06
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LjL	there isn't a public build facility for Maemo so i don't have to install the huge SDK to compile something, is there? :P	17:09
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alterego	LjL: extras-devel ?	17:10
Venemo_N900	LjL: it isn't that bad.	17:10
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Venemo_N900	LjL: you could try the autobuilder, but for efficient work I'd definitely recommend installing the sdk	17:11
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LjL	alterego: stuff is built for you there? any hard requisites to apply?	17:11
LjL	Venemo_N900: well right now i'd simply like to try compiling Groove, a N900 app, for OS2008 (which should be doable since it has no particular dependencies)	17:12
Venemo_N900	LjL: what's your problem with the sdk?	17:12
alterego	LjL: it needs to have debian packaging as part of it.	17:12
LjL	Venemo_N900: that scratchbox alone requires more than 1gb. i currently don't have 1gb free :P	17:12
Venemo_N900	LjL: lol	17:13
Venemo_N900	LjL: well I guess it was quick for me because I already had Scratchbox from the the Maemo 5 SDK	17:13
LjL	oh well i'll try to find things to delete :P	17:14
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LjL	Venemo_N900, by the way, the latest OS2008 version of Puzzle Master did something strange for me... the first time i ran it, everything locked up for a while and eventually complainted i was out of memory (or storage, not sure which one the dialog actually meant). subsequent times it worked alright, though.	17:15
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Venemo_N900	LjL: interesting, it didn't happen to anyone else (that I know of)	17:18
Venemo_N900	LjL: puzzle-master doesn't use any storage besides the size of the executable and the settings file	17:18
LjL	i suspect it was really about the RAM. i conjectured maybe you were doing some kind of one-time initialization that took up a bit of resources...	17:19
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alterego	Heh, LG are releasing phones with a "facebook" buttong.	17:34
alterego	Woof	17:34
pupnik	bl<h	17:34
Venemo_N900	LjL: puzzle-master uses only as much memory as your image of choice needs at 800x480 :)	17:37
Venemo_N900	LjL: plus the GUI of course	17:38
alterego	I've managed to do some huge optimization with my OpenGL and Qt UI hybrid work :)	17:38
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Venemo_N900	alterego: yeah, puzzle-master also uses 3D accel on the N900	17:39
Venemo_N900	alterego: however LjL talked about the N8x0 version which obviously doesn't use opengl	17:39
alterego	M'hmm	17:40
alterego	I was just saying :)	17:40
Venemo_N900	:)	17:40
MohammadAG	alterego, any progress on the video window? :p	17:40
Venemo_N900	using the gpu frees up lots of cpu resources	17:40
Venemo_N900	however interestingly, some of the stuff that puzzle-master does are actually slower on the gpu :(	17:41
alterego	Maybe you're doing it wrong :P	17:41
alterego	What things in particular?	17:41
Venemo_N900	I managed to optimize it lots	17:41
Venemo_N900	but the drop shadow effect seems to have a huge perf impact	17:42
alterego	Hrm, how are you doing it?	17:42
Venemo_N900	graphicsItem->setEffect()	17:42
alterego	Hrm	17:43
alterego	Interesting.	17:43
Venemo_N900	alterego: I read a performance benchmark from rasterman	17:43
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Venemo_N900	it seems that in alpha blending and such things, the GPU performs a LOT slower	17:43
alterego	Hrm	17:44
Venemo_N900	http://www.rasterman.com/index.php?page=News	17:45
RST38h	<yawn>	17:45
Venemo_N900	search on this page for "image data argb" and "image blend"	17:45
RST38h	So, anything new and exciting?	17:45
Venemo_N900	RST38h: try the new version of puzzle-master	17:46
MohammadAG	RST38h, new cat video on youtube OMGZ	17:46
RST38h	Mohammad: lol yeah	17:47
RST38h	Venemo: Screenshots? =)	17:47
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Venemo_N900	RST38h: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=67139	17:48
RST38h	aha, found it	17:49
RST38h	why not make those pieces puzzle-shaped though? =)	17:49
MohammadAG	RST38h, just wondering, ever considered one-click URL opening?	17:49
MohammadAG	instead of tap n hold + click context menu	17:49
Venemo_N900	RST38h: it is planned :) but I haven't had the time to implement yet	17:49
RST38h	Mohammad: Yea, I have been thinking of this	17:50
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RST38h	Mohammad: BUT, on the other hand, there is a plenty of use cases when you just want to copy damn url, rather than open it (example: you hate MicroB performance and would like to copy URL to Opera)	17:50
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Venemo_N900	RST38h: then set opera as the default browser with browser switchboard	17:51
MohammadAG	RST38h, well, keep tap-n-hold to show the context menu	17:52
MohammadAG	but use one click for quick opening	17:52
RST38h	Ah	17:52
timeless	one click to navigate is actually a really bad thing in mobile	17:52
timeless	since on average you don't want to click on the thing you hit :(	17:53
* RST38h is not sure how to make this work in XChat		17:53
Venemo_N900	timeless: :P	17:53
RST38h	that too, but still it is a valid use case	17:53
timeless	Venemo_N900: i'm not kidding :(	17:53
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MohammadAG	doesn't gtk have clicked() and hold() signals?	17:53
MohammadAG	or whatever they're called	17:53
Venemo_N900	timeless: on my part, some practice could make this better :)	17:54
timeless	no	17:54
RST38h	no longer remember: I study gtk onstrictly need-to-know basis	17:54
alterego	I've sort of given up on Gtk in favour of Qt	17:54
MohammadAG	well, qwerty12 had something like that in simple-brightness-applet	17:54
Venemo_N900	timeless: I mean, after using N900 for a year, the number of my accidental click are reduced to 0	17:55
MohammadAG	tap-and-hold I think	17:55
alterego	Which is a shame, because gnome tech is more widespread	17:55
timeless	Venemo_N900: really?	17:55
MohammadAG	I only click accidentally on capacitive screens	17:55
Venemo_N900	timeless: well maybe not 0, but I very rarely click something I don't wanna click	17:55
MohammadAG	well, except the iPhone keyboard	17:55
Venemo_N900	I don't use onscreen keyboards	17:56
Venemo_N900	I haven't seen a virtual keyboard that doesn't suck yet	17:56
MohammadAG	iPhone	17:57
MohammadAG	try it	17:57
MohammadAG	the keyboard is epic	17:57
Venemo_N900	iPhone? never! ever!	17:57
MohammadAG	the keyboard, not the OS	17:57
MohammadAG	i don't typo on it	17:57
MohammadAG	autocorrect sucks though	17:58
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Venemo_N900	ok. how do I try iPhone keyboard without iPhone os?	17:58
MohammadAG	try it on a friend's device :p	17:59
Venemo_N900	I don't have friends who have an iphone :(	17:59
Venemo_N900	anyway, swype seems quite okay to me; I've never had the chance to try it yet though	17:59
MohammadAG	I'm not sure I can use swype	18:00
MohammadAG	i always find myself clicking instead of swyping	18:00
Venemo_N900	mhm	18:00
MohammadAG	swiping isn't natural to me	18:00
Venemo_N900	yet?	18:00
MohammadAG	(even though it's faster)	18:00
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Venemo_N900	until a year ago, touchscreens weren't natural to me :)	18:01
MohammadAG	heh	18:01
MohammadAG	I had a pocket PC years ago (6680 times)	18:01
Venemo_N900	I didn't	18:01
Venemo_N900	N900 is my first touchscreen device	18:01
MohammadAG	o_O	18:02
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MohammadAG	the N97 was my first TS phone	18:02
Venemo_N900	actually N900 was the first TS device on the market which I didn't find a waste of money	18:02
MohammadAG	heh	18:02
Venemo_N900	yea, you told me how much you disliked the N97	18:03
Venemo_N900	I actually kinda liked the exterior of the original N97. the os, not so much	18:03
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* cehteh wonders why nokia not just continues to build nice hardware and then offers the choice for the os to the customer .. android, meego, symbian, wm7 ...		18:05
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MohammadAG	indeed	18:05
MohammadAG	I'd like an N9 with MeeGo 1.1	18:05
Venemo_N900	cehteh: +1	18:05
MohammadAG	even though 1.1 sucks	18:06
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: 1.1 sux badly	18:06
cehteh	maybe some OS'es could be marked as "unsupported" .. like wm7 :P	18:06
Venemo_N900	hehe	18:06
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cehteh	well and not evey os has to be available for every phone .. just as long maintaining drivers is feasible	18:06
* RST38h would like N9 with Harmattan. No need for Meego.		18:07
MohammadAG	and it'll continue to suck so long there's no hardware to develop on	18:07
MohammadAG	Harmattan works fine for me too	18:07
MohammadAG	deb ftw!	18:07
cehteh	(but on the other side, building hardware which requires less specialized and maintenance intensive drivers would be a pro to)	18:07
RST38h	For all I can see, this dive into Meego craze has been a plot by Symbian Nokians to keep Maemo from succeeding	18:07
MohammadAG	heh	18:08
RST38h	Mohammad: deb, rpm, who cares	18:08
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: until MeeGo doesn't have support for 1) ARM power management 2) proper phone calls well until then it's really just a joke	18:08
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MohammadAG	Venemo_N900, you can't do either without devs	18:08
cehteh	anyways ... i dont care, i will not buy a nokia phone because its a nokia phone .. my next phone has to be as free as the n900 at least .. no matter who builds it	18:08
timeless	Venemo_N900: you used too many negatives	18:08
timeless	'until' + 'doesn't'	18:08
RST38h	Mohammad: But the switch to Meego took resources from Harmattan and didnotproduce any tangible result	18:08
Venemo_N900	actually I find rpm to be more advantageous for mobiles	18:08
alterego	I don't see how you can call it a joke.	18:08
timeless	RST38h: sure it did, we got delays	18:08
alterego	It's under development ffs :P	18:08
timeless	those were tangible	18:09
MohammadAG	it's not a joke	18:09
MohammadAG	it lacks devs	18:09
* timeless is serious		18:09
MohammadAG	why? cause it lacks a device	18:09
timeless	Venemo_N900: sadly we aren't promising rpm :)	18:09
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RST38h	RPM has an advantage if you are a commercial app developer	18:09
korhojoa	how so?	18:09
timeless	RST38h: also, meego didn't really get much of our resources	18:09
timeless	a small number of people were assigned to look at or track meego	18:09
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RST38h	korhojoa: Apparently you can distribute encrypted RPMs	18:10
timeless	the rest continued to work on maemo6^Wmeego-like	18:10
RST38h	Cannotdo the same with DEBs without jumping through some weird loops	18:10
korhojoa	encrypted rpm:s? whut	18:10
Venemo_N900	timeless, RST38h: I find deltaRPM support the reason why rpm is good for mobiles	18:10
MohammadAG	i fear work on maemo 6 is kept on a git server running on /dev/null	18:10
korhojoa	can't you just stick a deb in a encrypted archive?	18:10
timeless	Venemo_N900: doesn't .deb have a delta format?	18:10
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: :D	18:10
timeless	i've never seen it used, but iirc it does have some vague support for something	18:10
RST38h	Venemo: Well, maybe, although I do not have any problems with package sizes, WiFi is free.	18:10
Venemo_N900	timeless: have you seen it action?	18:11
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timeless	no :)	18:11
timeless	RST38h: i'm often unable to get free wifi :(	18:11
korhojoa	timeless: well, use scripts in it	18:11
Venemo_N900	timeless: I heard about it, but then why don't you use it on Maemo?	18:11
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Venemo_N900	timeless: delta downloads are a big win for bandwidth	18:11
RST38h	timeless: Neither am I, but I usually install stuff when at homeor at work	18:11
RST38h	Free wifi in both cases	18:12
timeless	Venemo_N900: the people who designed the update process were um.. handcuffed	18:12
korhojoa	timeless: ? :D	18:12
timeless	and ham was designed as a simple-minded ui	18:12
Venemo_N900	timeless: when I download updates for Fedora, the delta support usually spares me 90% of the bandwidth	18:12
MohammadAG	HAM's UI is fine	18:12
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ZogG	whaaaat?	18:12
MohammadAG	the backend isn't	18:12
* RST38h wonders if HAM has been designed at all		18:13
timeless	MohammadAG: yeah, i mean the middle/backend	18:13
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timeless	RST38h: technically it was	18:13
Venemo_N900	timeless: no need to mention such a feature in the gui.	18:13
ZogG	ham is awesome	18:13
ZogG	u[pdates are awesome	18:13
ZogG	life are awesome	18:13
ZogG	people are pigs	18:13
RST38h	with some hash browns, yes	18:13
MohammadAG	is*	18:13
timeless	ZogG: life is generally singular or a mass noun (singular). so life <is>	18:13
korhojoa	ZogG: you forgot pigs aren't always people though	18:13
MohammadAG	timeless, "is*" is shorter	18:14
ZogG	life is	18:14
timeless	Venemo_N900: plus testing becomes more complicated	18:14
pieter_	hey guys godda problem - translation not working anymore, clock, calendar..	18:14
* RST38h procmails the whole hinet.net to /dev/null		18:14
ZogG	MohammadAG, not searching for shortcuts	18:14
timeless	pieter_: what locale are you using?	18:14
ZogG	timeless, i don't give a f... i'm russian	18:14
Venemo_N900	timeless: Red Hat, a smaller company than you, managed to get it working, so you could too.	18:14
ZogG	in soviet russian english speaks you	18:14
timeless	Venemo_N900: err	18:14
ZogG	pieter_, use english	18:15
ZogG	translations are baaaad	18:15
pieter_	Worked fine (dutch)	18:15
pieter_	but i might have left my debian sqeeze repo on while installing other things	18:15
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Venemo_N900	timeless: please tell us one thing (if you can). is there still some device that's coming from you guys with Harmattan onboard?	18:15
RST38h	Meanwhile: Google's Native Client almost 'ready for takeoff,' ready to make ActiveX look visionary	18:15
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ZogG	pieter_ dutch what country dutch?	18:15
timeless	redhat has ~3200 employees	18:15
timeless	maemo never had that many	18:16
pieter_	now clock says wdgt_va_24h_time	18:16
pieter_	no belgium	18:16
* RST38h hopes Maemo/Meego Devices survive for another 3-9 months		18:16
timeless	Venemo_N900: there was still a harmattan project/program as of friday	18:16
Venemo_N900	timeless: oh, sorry	18:16
BCMM	RST38h: why 3-9 months?	18:16
Venemo_N900	timeless: that's good to hear :)	18:16
RST38h	BCMM: Because there is a bigprobability Elop will be fired by New Year	18:16
timeless	RST38h: by whom?	18:17
ZogG	BCMM, funtoo is fun. though i have a question how do i make gentoo portage to use git?	18:17
BCMM	RST38h: he has been from nearly everywhere else, right?	18:17
MohammadAG	fired?	18:17
MohammadAG	I'd rather hear he's fired at	18:17
RST38h	timeless: the board, the shareholders, who cares?the right question is WHY	18:17
BCMM	ZogG: dunno, i use Gentoo	18:17
pieter_	ZogG: trying to figure out what package is causing this and reinstall it	18:17
timeless	RST38h: there's aa good writeup you should read	18:17
BCMM	ZogG: i think git portage is a funtoo-only thing	18:17
pieter_	can you give me a hint?	18:17
ZogG	BCMM i was talking about gentoo	18:17
Venemo_N900	timeless: another question is, can we expect Nokia to give the N900's modem's drivers/specs to the MeeGo project?	18:18
ZogG	BCMM, i like portage in funtoo more	18:18
BCMM	ZogG: oh. i think the answer is to use funtoo...	18:18
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RST38h	Once he fails to deliver a WP7 device by christmas,OR it does not sell in the US, the shareholders will start getting jittery	18:18
ZogG	BCMM, i do on funtoo	18:18
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timeless	RST38h: http://communities-dominate.blogs.com/	18:19
Venemo_N900	RST38h: let's hope you are right	18:19
timeless	well worth a read	18:19
BCMM	ZogG: i think mainstream portage doesn't have git sync capability	18:19
RST38h	They will get especially jittery if he fails to produce any semi-likeable Symbian/Maemo/etc devices in a year	18:19
BCMM	ZogG: also, there may not be a git server for regular portage	18:19
ZogG	it has but not by default i think	18:19
timeless	RST38h: i'm pretty confident that his arrangement w/ the board/shareholders gives him a bit over a year	18:19
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timeless	no reasonable person could expect a real turnaround in under a year	18:20
timeless	and even a year is pushing it	18:20
Venemo_N900	agreed	18:20
timeless	Venemo_N900: i don't know anything about hardware	18:20
timeless	and i wouldn't play an expectations game	18:20
Venemo_N900	timeless: driver is software, not hw.	18:20
RST38h	timeless: they arenot reasonable people. Hell mosto f them are not even people!	18:21
RST38h	timeless: reasonable people would never let this crap happen, not without somekind of plan B	18:21
BCMM	RST38h: in any case, Elop has a track record of screwing stuff up such that it stays screwed-up when he's gone	18:21
timeless	RST38h: there is a plan b	18:21
timeless	and it's quite obvious	18:21
BCMM	that was a joke...	18:21
RST38h	BCMM: Yes, he is responsible for Office ribbons:)	18:21
Venemo_N900	timeless: just asking because the MeeGo guys said that the mess around the telephony features are because Nokia didn't provide them drivers nor specs	18:21
RST38h	timeless: And which one is it?	18:22
BCMM	(well, "nokiaplanb" was	18:22
BCMM	RST38h: really? wow.	18:22
timeless	RST38h: i don't think it's for me to say, but it is obvious	18:22
RST38h	timeless: You can /msg if you wish	18:22
timeless	RST38h: just read 3 articles from the site i linked	18:22
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RST38h	I think I know what it is, but it is just a continuation of plan A to me	18:22
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RST38h	This guy is too chatty for me, can't read this much	18:23
korhojoa	:D	18:25
timeless	he's still worth the read, even w/ the dozens of typos	18:25
SpeedEvil	Hmm. Plan B. Beos?	18:27
Venemo_N900	:D	18:27
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kerio	nokiaplank ftw	18:32
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RST38h	Afaik, what is assumed to be a real plan B is actually bad for shareholders	18:33
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RST38h	Although I may be wrong, not a Wall Street regular	18:33
RST38h	So, no, in the eyes of shareholders that will most likely still be a fuckup =(	18:34
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alterego	I thought this was already plan b	18:35
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alterego	Plan A was MeeGo	18:35
Venemo_N900	kerio: nokiaplane was my favourite	18:35
pieter_	okay getting desperate here	18:36
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pieter_	if i open a windows the language is fine but changes to some sort of system language after a second	18:36
pieter_	and the calendar doesn't work	18:37
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pieter_	help	18:38
Venemo_N900	pieter_: I recommend using the word 'please'	18:39
Venemo_N900	pieter_: back up all your data and reflash your device	18:39
Venemo_N900	~flashing	18:39
infobot	i heard flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	18:39
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Venemo_N900	pieter_: this should help you	18:40
pieter_	I don't understand reflash?	18:40
pieter_	oh i'll take a look at that	18:40
pieter_	I think the word thanks goes	18:41
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pieter_	I mean thanks	18:41
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Venemo_N900	pieter_: reflash means resetting everything in your device, basically	18:42
pieter_	I understand	18:43
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pieter_	So basicly your using the computer to flash the N900	18:46
pieter_	does it take a while?	18:46
Venemo_N900	pieter_: yes. back up your data before doing it	18:47
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: your script doesn't work	18:47
Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: it only turns of the leds for some keys, not all	18:48
kerio	pieter_: it takes like 2 minutes	18:48
RST38h	Bombs: The cheaper the movie, the more probable it is that it will be an atomic bomb.	18:48
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Venemo_N900	MohammadAG: 'modprobe -r leds-lp5523' then 'modprobe leds-lp5523' actually did turn it off	18:50
RST38h	Phones: All have the same ringtone. Always break when the main character absolutely needs to make a call.	18:51
Venemo_N900	RST38h: no, because Dr. House did set a different ringtone for his team	18:51
RST38h	Computers: The display will always blow up when computer breaks.	18:52
Venemo_N900	RST38h: lol	18:52
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RST38h	TV: When the main character is near a TV, the set will always be showing either a) young couple making love in a bed or b) perfect family with two children having lunch	18:55
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Venemo_N900	hehe	18:56
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RST38h	Scientific Equipment: Will always blow up, eventually, even if it is just an electron microscope.	18:57
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RST38h	Tracking Devices: Track subjects with <1m precision and show them with red blinking dots. Sometimes, showthe complete 3D building structure as well.	18:58
pieter_	what verion to use (flash image) i'm in belgium	18:59
Venemo_N900	pieter_: always use global	19:00
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pieter_	Use Maemo 5 Global release for Nokia N900 ? or latest Maemo 5 Global release for Nokia N900?	19:05
DocScrutinizer	Venemo_N900: edit /etc/mce/mce.ini, delete the keypad reference in modules= line	19:08
DocScrutinizer	stop, start mce	19:08
DocScrutinizer	or - my suggestion - set the keypad timeout down to 1s, even try 0s	19:10
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DocScrutinizer	or rename /usr/share/mce/modules/keypad.so o whatever it's called, restart mce	19:11
timeless	pieter_: you should use the latest global release	19:13
timeless	and then consider whether you want to try community ssu	19:13
pieter_	oi you just stopped me	19:13
pieter_	PR 1.3 instead of OS2009	19:14
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DocScrutinizer	could somebody good at git and kernel patches etc please check http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=951162#post951162 and https://lkml.org/lkml/2011/1/5/31 thread&patches, and tell me if I'm right with my conclusions and esp if there's ANY hint ANYWHERE about what particular type of hw platform and controller this patch is meant for. Thanks!	19:54
DocScrutinizer	moin javispedro	19:54
javispedro	morning	19:55
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: that driver seems to expect someone else providing the functions to read/write regs	19:56
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DocScrutinizer	yes	19:56
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DocScrutinizer	and only faint clue I found about that supposedly used hw microcontroller that actually speaks to AV button, was some I2C addr of iirc 0x6D	19:57
javispedro	maybe wait for the rx-51 kernel ;)	19:58
DocScrutinizer	so we got a moorestown platform with one I2C-bus that has a chip on addr 0x6D that does all the analog line wiggling	19:59
DocScrutinizer	aiui	19:59
javispedro	ah, there's more patches	19:59
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: I'd appreciate if you could have a 5min look at it, and spot the bits I missed (like e.g. commit comments that clearly say what a hw platform and what chip at 0x6D this is for)	20:00
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: also I wouldn't mind you sharing all the URLs of further bits related that you may find	20:02
* RST38h moos at javispedro evilly		20:02
javispedro	moo RST38h	20:03
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: nah, I think you get them all on the LKML link	20:04
DocScrutinizer	V3 0123/3	20:04
DocScrutinizer	also V2	20:04
DocScrutinizer	prolly also V1	20:04
DocScrutinizer	so that's one thread with 4 posts holding 3 patches plus some other file	20:05
DocScrutinizer	if there's more, please toss URL	20:05
javispedro	yeah, there's more	20:05
javispedro	up to v7 seemingly	20:05
DocScrutinizer	duh	20:05
javispedro	I gather from the discussion that it is a custom uc.	20:07
* javispedro ponders how to make a http link from a nntp/gmane thread..		20:07
javispedro	http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/82247/match=eci	20:08
DocScrutinizer	paste >150 char string here, for unique google search	20:08
javispedro	err, better: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/82246/focus=82247	20:08
DocScrutinizer	aah	20:09
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javispedro	also interesting are posts on the v6 thread: http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.alsa.devel/81629/focus=81630	20:09
DocScrutinizer	I'm planning to introduce second controller later. Both controllers are i2c-devices, but internal way of working is totally different.	20:11
DocScrutinizer	</quote>	20:11
DocScrutinizer	so yeah, this is worthless for "us"	20:11
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biston	can i get a more verbose boot ouput from my n900 instead of the streaming dots ?	20:15
MohammadAG	before X starts, framebuffer, after it starts, not really	20:15
biston	i tried giving it the --boot=single as i do on my centos from maemo-flasher... didn't change a thing though	20:15
MohammadAG	in your case, X started	20:16
biston	okay then is there a way to stop X from starting?	20:16
biston	using flasher?	20:16
MohammadAG	that, I'm not sure of	20:16
biston	time to google	20:16
biston	thanks for the tip	20:16
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biston	ah, runtime level	20:16
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DocScrutinizer	I really wonder what's wrong with tapio.vihuri, to nowhere mention the type or build or label or whatever of that ""In this case it's microcontroller in I2C bus,""	20:26
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DocScrutinizer	that's not a driver for ECI, that's a driver for ""microcontroller in I2C bus <unknown>"" and that uC is talking to ECI equipment	20:28
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DocScrutinizer	that's kinda like calling a driver for bq24150 battery gauge LiIon-driver	20:30
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DocScrutinizer	it either is RX91-ECI.ko, or ECI-atmel888051foo.ko	20:34
DocScrutinizer	but both names would reveal too much about what Nokia is actually doing ATM, I guess	20:36
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DocScrutinizer	though for RX51/N900 there've been drivers long before the device was shipped or even announced, and their names were more sane	20:37
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alterego	Eek, only got 5G free	20:44
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* GAN900 keeps having to clear out space to copy pictures.		20:54
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GAN900	Remember when a 1GB HD was, like, the most amazing thing in the world?	20:55
DocScrutinizer	yeah	20:55
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lcuk	GAN900, first HD I had was 250mb	20:55
lcuk	quantum 2.5inch thingy	20:56
DocScrutinizer	50	20:56
javispedro	40!	20:56
SpeedEvil	60 here	20:56
SpeedEvil	ST227R	20:56
SpeedEvil	Was that loud...	20:56
lcuk	the Manchester Mark I had programmable storage space of 1kb	20:56
lcuk	the guy giving the presentation asked how much my device had lol	20:56
SpeedEvil	It woke parents when started at night through 2 closed doors	20:56
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: HAH, my first computer has 2k	20:56
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, the manchester Mark I was more than room sized	20:57
SpeedEvil	My first also 1K	20:57
SpeedEvil	zx81	20:57
lcuk	with valves	20:57
* lcuk got great close up photos		20:57
alterego	My first HD was 10Mb	20:57
lcuk	winchester?	20:57
alterego	Don't remember.	20:57
trumee	yeah 10Mb for me too	20:57
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: well, when zx80/81 became affordable, I bought a 16k expansion right away with it	20:57
trumee	lcuk, that rings a bell	20:57
lcuk	holy crap, 16x more memory!	20:58
trumee	lcuk, winchester.	20:58
GAN900	lcuk, 50MB	20:58
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SpeedEvil	I still have some of the gear out of the closing of RoDime.	20:58
DocScrutinizer	my first computer was a NASCOM-1 though, which I assembled and soldered myself	20:58
Arkenoi	20Mb was mine	20:58
SpeedEvil	Which factory is ~4 miles from here.	20:58
SpeedEvil	Well - it was.	20:58
* lcuk used a single sheet of paper		20:58
GAN900	Getting a 75MB SCSI Macally drive made my year.	20:58
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, how long did that feat take you?	20:58
trumee	1.44 Mb floppies were the most unreliable thing	20:59
lcuk	1.44 were quite stirdy	20:59
lcuk	sturdy	20:59
trumee	360K floppies were much better	20:59
lcuk	it was the real floppies that weren't	20:59
trumee	lcuk, 1.44Mb developed bad sectors all the time	20:59
lcuk	you shouldv used Amiga ones then, 1.76mb on those badboys	21:00
MohammadAG	my first HDD was 5GBs	21:00
* RST38h had 160k floppies		21:00
trumee	i hated those. Real floppies were much better for me	21:00
lcuk	and MFM encoded	21:00
MohammadAG	and that wasn't the largest size around	21:00
* MohammadAG cries		21:00
lcuk	lol	21:00
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RST38h	and 40MB HDs	21:00
trumee	Remember used to use Norton Disk Doctor on them daily	21:00
Venemo	hey	21:00
lcuk	my zx spectrum ran on audio tapes	21:00
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: some 2 weeks iirc	21:00
trumee	to get rid of the bad sectors	21:00
lcuk	always a choice between saving work or making a mix tape	21:01
lcuk	many an innovative app was lost to the top 40	21:01
MohammadAG	I never saw tape drives	21:01
* RST38h had autodio tapes too, 1MB per tape		21:01
trumee	MohammadAG, same here	21:01
MohammadAG	first OS I used was Windows 3.01	21:02
RST38h	lcuk: choice? what choice? ofcourse it was saving work	21:02
RST38h	Mohammad: Too young :)	21:02
lcuk	RST38h, you could keep your computer powered up and running for a while, the top 40 however only played certain songs once a week	21:02
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javispedro	I remember I once wanted to record the zx81 tapes on this computer... but what for...	21:02
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: soon after that I havily modded the whole thing, and developed and built a cmos 64k RAM expansion, damn was that cute, nonvolatile RAM	21:02
MohammadAG	then 95, 98SE, XP, Red Hat, Vista, Ubuntu	21:02
MohammadAG	red hat was my first encounter with linux, was in 2003 I think	21:03
RST38h	lcuk: Did not have top 40. Never neededit anyway.	21:03
RST38h	Still do not.	21:03
lcuk	my first linux experience was putting console boot installation on numerous machines in college	21:03
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GAN900	MohammadAG, don't worry, give it 20 years and the old guys will start dying off.	21:04
MohammadAG	o_O	21:04
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RST38h	my first linux experience was watching the damn toy unix (tm) go into kernel panic on failed gethostbyname()	21:04
MohammadAG	shove a divide by zero function into the kernel	21:04
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MohammadAG	and you have a blinking caps	21:04
MohammadAG	<RST38h> Mohammad: Too young :) <-- indeed, used to play games as a youngster :p	21:05
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MohammadAG	I remember when a game required 3D acceleration and that was all new and stuff	21:05
RST38h	everybody has done that	21:05
RST38h	it is the gaming rig that differs	21:06
MohammadAG	it needed a Voodoo 3DFX card or something	21:06
RST38h	for us, if the game used anything above SCREEN2 (16 colors with leakage) it was cool	21:06
pexi	how did u loose your interest on gaming	21:06
pexi	some boring job? nagging wife?	21:06
pexi	:)	21:06
RST38h	Vampire Killer (later known as Castlevania) or King's Valley 2 were cool	21:07
MohammadAG	me? I upgraded to a PS1 that time	21:07
MohammadAG	then a PS2 in 2002 I think	21:07
MohammadAG	then a PS3 in 2007	21:07
javispedro	pexi: notion that "those days games suck"? ;)	21:07
MohammadAG	then a PS4 in 2017	21:07
RST38h	pexi: I wrote an emulator and can play my childhood games on anything fromPC to a digitalcamera since then =)	21:07
alterego	Heh	21:08
RST38h	But yes, I stopped caring about games once they started requiring DirectX	21:08
pexi	should all the nerds be playing world of tanks now (i presume that it was THE fantasy to ram with ww2 tanks)	21:08
MohammadAG	lol	21:08
RST38h	Because none of my laptops ever had 3D hw, and I never bought a desktop.	21:08
RST38h	pexi:No.	21:08
MohammadAG	I remember when WoW came out and everyone got addicted to it, never liked that game	21:09
pexi	excellent game	21:09
* RST38h never tried WoW. ZAngband, on the other had...		21:09
RST38h	hand	21:09
* Arkenoi played 60s (spacewar) and 70s (star trek) games much in mid-90s		21:09
RST38h	"yes" on startrek	21:10
RST38h	as to space war, we played it on some ancient lab equipment, do I get a bonus for that? =)	21:10
alterego	Meh, WoW just looks lame to me.	21:11
Venemo	WoW is crap	21:11
alterego	It's still an extremely popular game though	21:11
RST38h	Ah, apparently it has got some pretty neat easter eggs, Gilliam-style	21:11
Venemo	I prefer EVE if it comes to MMOs	21:12
RST38h	Like a quest to kill Romeo and Juliet, whom you should kill at the same time, because the bastards revive each other	21:12
* Arkenoi still plays Elite (Oolite)		21:12
RST38h	Or the Little Red Riding Hood quest, where one party member comes the Little Red Riding Hood	21:12
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Arkenoi	one of a few games that was enhanced really good way	21:13
RST38h	Arkenoi: Written in ObjectiveC. Not easily portable to Maemo =(	21:13
MohammadAG	tbh I never liked MMOs	21:13
Arkenoi	yes :-(	21:13
MohammadAG	or RPGs	21:13
RST38h	Mohammad: Try Moria, Angband, or Zangband. Terribly addictive.	21:13
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* SpeedEvil still plays nethack.		21:14
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cehteh	why isnt objectiveC not easily portable? no objective C gcc compiler for maemo? non portable runtime?	21:14
RST38h	Mohammad: And yes, you get to kill Ballmer and Gates in ZAngband	21:14
SpeedEvil	I've even got it on the n900	21:14
SpeedEvil	keyboard is a bit annoying though.	21:14
MohammadAG	pfft, let me know when they get Elop	21:14
RST38h	cehteh: try.	21:14
cehteh	no intention, just wondering	21:14
Venemo	MohammadAG: why do you wanna get elop?	21:14
SpeedEvil	'A ghoul named Elop hits you!'	21:14
cehteh	i know that objective C needs some runtime library but i wonder if that was written in a non portable way	21:15
RST38h	Mohammad: Probably never, sorry. But they have got Marti Ahtisaari, if that helps to relieve your grief	21:15
javispedro	'You transform into a Microsoft-owned corporation'	21:15
MohammadAG	Venemo, we all know why	21:15
* Arkenoi tried playing NES elite on Maemo with RST38h's emulator, it is playable but hardly enjoyable		21:15
Venemo	MohammadAG: ah, still black friday? :S	21:15
pexi	WoT > WoW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsGabpIOqz0	21:15
javispedro	cehteh: I think the case is more like "no one's interested, requires rebuilding gcc, which takes a long time"	21:15
RST38h	Speed: 'A newt named Elop attacks you!"	21:15
MohammadAG	then came Guitar Hero, never really got into it at that time	21:15
SpeedEvil	:	21:15
cehteh	javispedro: yes that might be the case .. but portability might be not	21:16
RST38h	Arkenoi: Just play the original ZX version	21:16
RST38h	Arkenoi:On RST38h's emulator, of course	21:16
DocScrutinizer	Arkenoi: Eliter FTW	21:16
MohammadAG	though I did get addicted to Modern Warfare 2	21:16
Venemo	I prefer strategic games and RPGs	21:17
Venemo	my current favourite is Starcraft II :)	21:17
MohammadAG	Well, MW2 helped me fix a bug in the bluetooth messenger, so I consider less-thinking games better	21:17
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: the Amiga version of Elite was awesome	21:17
MohammadAG	you could consider MW2 strategic though	21:17
Venemo	MohammadAG: how did it help you with the bluetooth messenger?	21:18
DocScrutinizer	though first version I got was on Schneider-CPC128	21:18
RST38h	Doc: The Frontier?	21:18
MohammadAG	Venemo, idk, spent 3 hours trying to fix something at school, it didn't work	21:18
DocScrutinizer	nah, never got that advanced	21:18
RST38h	Doc: Yes. But there is also X: Beyond The Frontier, it runs on Windows	21:18
Arkenoi	The only true Elite was Archimedes one and i never managed to feed PC Acorn emulator with disk images properly :-(	21:18
MohammadAG	fixed it in 2 minutes when the idea came to my mind while playing MW2	21:18
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: too bad I got no redmond crap here	21:19
RST38h	Arkenoi: I have got it to work, except that you mean BBC not Archimedes	21:19
pieter_	Venemo: thanks for the help, flashing worked like a charm	21:19
MohammadAG	Venemo, I'd give you a binary, but you need two N900s to test	21:19
RST38h	Arkenoi: It is pretty nice but not much nicer than other 8bit versions	21:19
MohammadAG	so only alterego and lcuk could test it :P	21:19
RST38h	Doc: The X is pretty nice, although may get boring	21:19
Arkenoi	RST38h, nope, Archimedes is ancient RISC machine	21:19
RST38h	Arkenoi: I know	21:19
RST38h	Arkenoi: But still, the ORIGINAL elite was developed for the Beeb, not the Archimedes	21:19
Arkenoi	RST38h, the major difference was that (like in Oolite) you are no longer center of the universe	21:20
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Arkenoi	you may see other ships fighting	21:20
RST38h	Ah	21:20
RST38h	No, the Beeb version did not do that	21:20
Venemo	MohammadAG: see? gaming is good :)	21:20
DocScrutinizer	Bell & Braben were friggin nerds, sure thing	21:21
MohammadAG	I wonder if anyone plays MW2 here :p	21:21
Arkenoi	There was Linewars then	21:21
Venemo	MohammadAG: yes, you	21:21
Arkenoi	a duel game for Cobra MkIIIs	21:21
GAN900	MohammadAG, used to.	21:21
MohammadAG	besides me, I want a 1v1 :p	21:21
MohammadAG	GAN900, PS3?	21:21
GAN900	MohammadAG, nah, 360.	21:22
GAN900	(although I've got a PS3, too)	21:22
MohammadAG	PSN ID?	21:22
GAN900	general_antilles	21:23
GAN900	Or maybe without the underscore	21:23
GAN900	Don't recall.	21:23
* javispedro watches the creepy "Maemo project" ad and secretly hopes the evil N900 eats Elop		21:23
MohammadAG	well	21:23
Venemo	javispedro: what ad is that?	21:23
MohammadAG	when you're on, same nick, mind adding me? P	21:23
MohammadAG	:P*	21:23
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MohammadAG	Venemo, the paranormal activity -like one	21:24
javispedro	Venemo: quite old -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxiOKKF721U	21:24
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Venemo	javispedro: oh yeah, I saw that one	21:31
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divan	Guys, I need some advice.. Asphalt5 webos game tries to get file from /media/internal, which is obviously doesn't exists on N900. I'm creating WebOS Games autoinstaller from IPK and I don't want to give the root privileges to it. So, how to create/emulate/cheat Asphalt binary to not access/ignore /media/internal/ access?	21:31
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norayr	I've bought a new SD card, written 20110215 image to it. again waiting for root device /dev/mmcblk0p1... other images as well. what could it be?	21:32
norayr	no, sorry, wrong window	21:32
divan	This path '/media/internal' is hardcoded to binary btw.	21:32
Venemo	divan: why don't you just create a directory called /media/internal ?	21:33
javispedro	or even better, a symlink to /home/user/MyDocs	21:33
divan	Vanadis, it needs root priveldges as I understand.	21:34
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Venemo	divan: then give it root privileges and watch as it does rm -rf /	21:35
divan	Not funny.	21:35
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javispedro	/home/user/MyDocs does not require any root privileges to write.	21:36
divan	javispedro, sure, but symlink is supposed to be created in /media dir.	21:37
javispedro	you need root to create the .desktop files unless you're planning the be CSSU only.	21:37
divan	Again - these post-install scripts will be launched from installer. And many people will contribute to it. I don't want to give root access for that.	21:38
divan	javispedro, no. Desktop and icons are perfectly placed in ~/.local/	21:38
javispedro	not without the pre-CSSU h-d.	21:38
javispedro	*with	21:38
divan	well, witout CSSU the icons can't be added to Desktop, but displayed in Application Menu	21:39
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MohammadAG	hildon-home had a bug fixed upstream	21:39
GAN900	MohammadAG, will do.	21:40
javispedro	MohammadAG: it was only a home issue? -desktop not affected?	21:40
MohammadAG	afaik yeah	21:40
MohammadAG	lemme check	21:40
divan	maybe it's possible to reiplement open(2) that will handle /media/internal and redirect to other path? And launch game with LD_LIBRARY_PRELOAD...	21:41
MohammadAG	http://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-home/commit/9992de1f561d8b91566cd7972a6fe4fae2b559f8	21:41
divan	Did someone does such stuff with preenv games?	21:41
MohammadAG	javispedro, commit ^	21:42
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javispedro	MohammadAG: yeah, but doesn't seem to say anything about h-d	21:43
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Venemo	I hate this. my laptop has the habbit of randomly freezing...	21:43
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MohammadAG	javispedro, desktop files worked fine from ~/.local	21:44
MohammadAG	but they didn't show up in hildon-home's shortcut menu	21:44
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javispedro	MohammadAG: since PR1.1, found it. ok!	21:48
MohammadAG	ah	21:48
MohammadAG	didn't know about ~/.local before PR1.1 anyway, was a n00b back then	21:48
MohammadAG	javispedro, how do I set properties on gtk widgets?	21:48
javispedro	what property?	21:49
MohammadAG	http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/pre-alpha2/apis/libhildon-2.1.34/HildonPannableArea.html#HildonPannableArea--mov-mode	21:49
MohammadAG	ignore the pre_alpha2 thing, it's the same in final and I cba to find that	21:49
javispedro	if there's not a convenience accessor function, just use g_object_set	21:50
javispedro	i.e. g_object_set(G_OBJECT(your_widget), "property-name", property_value, NULL);	21:50
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DocScrutinizer	divan: ( So, how to create/emulate/cheat Asphalt binary to not access/ignore /media/internal/ access? ) create a fake_fopen.so to LDPRELOAD, that intercepts fopen() and siblings amd cooks the path argument tru a regex you either get from $ENV or via parameter to LDPRELOAD invocation. See aoss	21:57
divan	DocScrutinizer, yeah, I'm implementing this way right now.	21:58
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DocScrutinizer	divan: if you can implemet that in a general way, then plrease do and share	21:59
DocScrutinizer	:-D	21:59
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javispedro	...	21:59
javispedro	that's what preenv itself basically does...	21:59
divan	DocScrutinizer, it will be universal installer for all WebOS games. I'll share as soon as first version will be ready.	21:59
DocScrutinizer	I'm talking about a generic *.so to tweak path in fopen() and related calls	22:00
DocScrutinizer	nothing more, nothing less	22:00
SpeedEvil	divan: fun!	22:01
* javispedro waves and repeats: that what preenv does.		22:01
javispedro	so, when it funnily interacts with preenv's preloaded library and everything crashes horribly..	22:01
javispedro	don't tell me I didn't warn ;)	22:02
divan	DocScrutinizer, javispedro , I'm not sure I've understood you completely.. What does mean "in general way'?	22:02
divan	javispedro, preload in preenv will interact with some other lib?	22:02
javispedro	preenv IS a preloaded library.	22:03
divan	And...	22:03
javispedro	for a start, the current scripts will probably ignore whatever the current LD_PRELOAD event.	22:04
javispedro	*LD_PRELOAD value is	22:04
javispedro	also, in the future preenv itself will also hook open()	22:05
divan	I'll check with scripts, thanks for warning.	22:05
divan	Ahh..	22:05
divan	So, it would be nice to move such hacks to preenv source, right?	22:05
DocScrutinizer	divan: FAKE_FOPEN="sys/!mysys/ /foobar/(.*)/x!/fobaaar/\1/y" LDPRELOAD=fake-fopen.so myapp-which-accesses-sys-and-gets-diverted-to-mysys	22:05
* javispedro partially disagrees when a symlink is so much easier and faster, but...		22:05
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: synling from /sys/foo/bar to /arbi/trary ?	22:06
javispedro	if no symlink, yes, it'd be better to not have more than one library.	22:07
DocScrutinizer	arrg symlink*	22:07
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: no, that was an answer for above's use case.	22:07
DocScrutinizer	aah	22:07
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: for your use case, consider bind mounts.	22:07
DocScrutinizer	no way	22:07
DocScrutinizer	I need that per app, not global	22:07
javispedro	Linux has per-app mount points ;)	22:08
divan	Ok, let me check with scripts. Hope ld_preload will work, and I'll try to keep in touch with preenv changes in future.	22:09
divan	BTW, here is how app is look like. Any comments and suggestions are welcome. http://www.imagebam.com/image/eec3c0120398892	22:09
divan	http://www.imagebam.com/image/a64a24120398902	22:09
divan	http://www.imagebam.com/image/de84a6120398909	22:09
divan	http://www.imagebam.com/image/c9a519120398917	22:10
divan	http://www.imagebam.com/image/b87027120398922	22:10
alterego	teeheehee, top gear	22:10
piggz	alterego: when the bmw got destroyed?	22:11
piggz	or going thru the ice?	22:11
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: wut?	22:13
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: you're not talking about chroot, are you?	22:13
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javispedro	DocScrutinizer: no, they're called "mount namespaces"	22:13
DocScrutinizer	incredible, a day I learn sth new :-)	22:14
alterego	piggz: the new one that's on now	22:15
divan	javispedro, anyway I don't want to create mess in the /media dir for every game that uses hardcoded pathes.	22:15
alterego	Erm, the snow plough out of a harvester one.	22:15
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javispedro	divan: there's a finite set of such paths, as on a real webos device	22:15
piggz	alterego: yeah, watching it....was funny when they fired grit at the bmw	22:16
divan	Any finite converges to infinity )	22:17
divan	It's a rude way. But easiest, for sure.	22:17
javispedro	divan: note that I personally dislike autoipkg installers for the simple reason that it invites to piracy	22:18
alterego	I don't like them because they're crap.	22:18
divan	javispedro, in what way they invite?	22:18
javispedro	(for more discussion -- http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-10-28.log.html#t2010-10-28T19:59:34 )	22:18
alterego	divan: they promote piracy, how many people do you actually tihnk buys them legitimately?	22:19
divan	I wan't to have the oficiall way to install game from .ipk file. Buy it :) and install.	22:19
divan	Now people install some prepackaged .debs - is that better?	22:20
alterego	I doubt anyone legitimately buys the games.	22:21
alterego	How many N900 owners do you think have a Palm Pre?	22:21
alterego	I'd guess at, hrm, two.	22:21
divan	That's the second question. And I can't change anything here.	22:21
divan	But now - even if I buy the game - I have no easy way to install it.	22:22
javispedro	yes.	22:22
alterego	Well, you only have to do it once ..	22:22
javispedro	the fact that you don't know probably means you don't have a pre ;)	22:22
javispedro	as I said then on the channel, the legal store doesn't send you an ipk to you.	22:23
javispedro	(it obviously does, but not that you can see it)	22:23
alterego	Yeah, like Ovi	22:23
divan	Don't tell me that )) I still believe there is an official way to buy .ipk.	22:23
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alterego	divan: I doubt HP would agree with you	22:26
alterego	Or the game developers	22:26
divan	So, you must admit that all possible installs of webos games on n900 are piracy.	22:27
alterego	It wouldn't suprise me.	22:27
divan	Then, the choice is on prepackaged unofficial .debs (which aren't in repos) and autoinstaller(which will be available from repos).	22:28
alterego	No one has paid me for any of my apps, why would I expect them to pay for others'?	22:28
divan	Hope this is a joke.	22:30
alterego	Hope what is aa joke?	22:33
divan	That logic - "if no one paid me, why should I?"	22:33
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divan	Forget it. Just imho.	22:34
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: have a manpage to start with, regarding mount namespaces?	22:35
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: nah, but there was this ibm article..	22:35
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: (though until I learn more about that, I really like the simplicity of LDPRELOAD solution)	22:35
javispedro	http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/linux/library/l-mount-namespaces.html	22:36
javispedro	either way, it's just a flag in the fork() syscall	22:36
javispedro	er...	22:36
javispedro	clone() syscall	22:36
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javispedro	so it should be in the clone() manpage, hopefully =)	22:37
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javispedro	http://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/online/pages/man2/clone.2.html	22:38
javispedro	(it is -- CLONE_NEWNS)	22:38
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DocScrutinizer	javispedro: thanks, but looks really complex	22:40
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javispedro	it's just a parent creates child shell with new namespace -> mount / umount as appropiate	22:40
javispedro	otoh, if you're interested in the preloaded approach, iirc scratchbox2 does it, and they moved the path renaming logic into Lua	22:41
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GAN900	ohgod	22:46
Jaffa	?	22:47
GAN900	Tim's written a socialist manifesto.	22:47
nox-	moin	22:47
chx	where	22:48
GAN900	http://maemo.org/community/council/state_of_maemo-q12011-1/	22:48
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ruskie	we are legion	22:50
javispedro	to the barricades!	22:51
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ruskie	man the pitchforks	22:51
* GAN900 boils some pitch.		22:52
* MohammadAG gets an RPG-7		22:52
javispedro	all hail MohammadAG and the CSSU!	22:52
* MohammadAG throws RPG-7 and gets a Javelin		22:53
* divan is going to translate this for russian maemo community		22:53
* ruskie grabs a mages staff and starts blasting fireballs around...		22:53
alterego	ffff	22:53
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Jaffa	GAN900: Yeah, there was some talk of toning it down a little ;-)	22:59
ruskie	deja-vu...	22:59
ruskie	what's there to tone down...	23:00
Jaffa	GAN900: Indeed, it has been.	23:00
ruskie	manifestos need to be extreme...	23:00
ruskie	since people will water them down in practice anyway	23:00
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MohammadAG	timeless, mind popping into #maemo-ssu?	23:00
Jaffa	GAN900: Basically to avoid endless TMO trolling as to whether everyone needs to agree on "We believe..." statements to be part of "the community"	23:00
Jaffa	Then again, I've realised relatively recently that the people who moan most about "the community" are the ones who contribute least to it	23:01
Jaffa	Such as those matching "ge.*"	23:01
Jaffa	GAN900: Going to run?	23:01
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RST38h	Chrome May Drop the URL Bar	23:02
MohammadAG	lol	23:03
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* javispedro ponders..		23:04
javispedro	btw, are there any plans about tracker in the CSSU?	23:04
MohammadAG	javispedro, if you have anything for it I can pull it into gitorious	23:04
Jaffa	javispedro: "plans" "about" "tracker"?	23:04
javispedro	what MohammadAG answered ;)	23:04
Jaffa	javispedro: As MohammadAG says, point to a patch or raise a bug saying "I'd like to fix X, can you pull in the sources"	23:05
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javispedro	actually, I was thinking something bigger. Like the upgrade to a more recent upstream version (still in the same series) that I was promised but never happened =)	23:06
javispedro	but that is probably too big for me..	23:06
javispedro	hm... will take a look.	23:06
MohammadAG	if it doesn't break anything, why not?	23:07
Jaffa	zactly	23:07
Jaffa	nd that's what testing's for ;-)	23:07
javispedro	my private branch currently has some fun stuff also -- like hardcoded exclusion of cover.jpg ;)	23:08
MohammadAG	lol	23:08
MohammadAG	in images or music?	23:08
javispedro	images	23:08
MohammadAG	that would be awesome	23:08
MohammadAG	or exclude images from /home/user/MyDocs/.sounds	23:08
MohammadAG	I wonder how hard a portrait task manager would be	23:09
* RST38h suspects that the only good thing to be done to Tracker is keworking it		23:09
MohammadAG	tracker works well, when it's not indexing	23:09
RST38h	yes	23:10
MohammadAG	really, listing songs in the mediaplayer is epically quick	23:10
MohammadAG	Nokia's stock player sucks at it though	23:10
MohammadAG	the rewrite lists songs in less than 2s	23:10
MohammadAG	same for albums	23:10
RST38h	How about adding a menu item or an icon "rescan all media" and disabling automatic rescan?	23:10
MohammadAG	I suggest otherwise, I had that on symbian and it sucked	23:10
steve___	Can someone point me to some docs for upgrading the ios on an n900? Currently it's running version 3.2010.02-8.203.1	23:11
MohammadAG	ios?	23:11
RST38h	or delaying rescan until the device stays locked for at least 5minutes?	23:11
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MohammadAG	that's very reasonable	23:11
steve___	internal OS	23:11
MohammadAG	but rescanning shouldn't happen a lot	23:11
MohammadAG	only when the db is corrupt	23:11
MohammadAG	when new media is found, it only indexes that	23:12
MohammadAG	~flashing	23:12
infobot	flashing is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	23:12
MohammadAG	or use the application manager steve___	23:12
divan	javispedro, what did you tell before about preloading and preenv? ) Asphalt now gives me that error "./Asphalt5: symbol lookup error: ./Asphalt5: undefined symbol: PDL_ScreenTimeoutEnable"	23:13
divan	With LD_PRELOAD=	23:13
steve___	MohammadAG: I get a message in the application manager.	23:13
steve___	MohammadAG: http://pastebin.com/b9m4N6bc	23:13
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RST38h	MohammadL currently, tracker scans whenever stuff changes	23:14
RST38h	if it changes a lot, tracker will scan a lot	23:14
MohammadAG	what do logs say?	23:14
MohammadAG	RST38h, indeed, it tracks what's changed	23:14
MohammadAG	though tbh, I think scanning should happen immediately when the screen's locked	23:14
RST38h	the problem is that even THAT is a costly operation	23:14
RST38h	I agree	23:14
MohammadAG	then paused or low prioritzed when unlocked	23:14
RST38h	cannot	23:15
MohammadAG	can't be paused?	23:15
MohammadAG	file a bug upstream!	23:15
javispedro	divan: as I thought it is overwriting whatever you put in LD_PRELOAD, check /opt/preenv/env.sh	23:15
RST38h	What makes it such a pain is not the cpu priority, it is the mmc access bandwidth	23:15
RST38h	So, yes, I would only do it when the device is absolutely idle (preferably locked)	23:15
RST38h	most likely with a delay to prevent it from starting on wshort locks unlocks	23:16
GAN900	Jaffa, god no.	23:16
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GAN900	Jaffa, this is a term for much better people than myself. ;)	23:16
steve___	MohammadAG: thank you for the link. I'll read it.	23:18
jacekowski	you can pause it	23:18
jacekowski	kill -STOP `pidof` tracker	23:18
jacekowski	and then -CONT when you want to continue	23:18
MohammadAG	lol	23:19
Jaffa	GAN900: I can imagine that despite lots of noise on TMO not many people will come forward	23:19
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RST38h	everybody left.	23:19
Jaffa	Despite professing in absolute terms that maemo.org MUST be made to continue and it's "just" a matter of collecting money.	23:19
Jaffa	No, everyone's either busy or doing something more useful than avoiding trolls.	23:19
RST38h	qwerty left, many other people left	23:20
javispedro	another thought: did I dream reading a message to -community about some company now being maemo.org's legal owner?	23:20
RST38h	you mean the nemein guys?	23:21
GAN900	javispedro, I missed that one.	23:21
javispedro	ooh, nemein.	23:21
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javispedro	so I didn't dream it after all.	23:22
javispedro	sigh of relief	23:22
MohammadAG	has someone ever exploited trust on maemo.org?	23:22
RST38h	Trust? What trust? Do you believe something you have heard on maemo.org?	23:22
MohammadAG	no, I meant like they gained trust, then pushed a bricker	23:22
* RST38h especially likes the latest generation of photoshop-wielding lemmings with their "N9 designs"		23:23
RST38h	Mohammad: Ah, that... No	23:23
javispedro	GAN900: talking about the post that is quoted here ( http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=62447 ) , that I cannot find on gmane nntp for some reason.	23:23
RST38h	Mohammad: There was one case when some guy ported his app from iPhone and pushed it up	23:23
MohammadAG	sunvox?	23:24
MohammadAG	or whatever it was called	23:24
RST38h	no no, some baseball game	23:24
MohammadAG	ah, I remember him	23:24
Jaffa	RST38h: Eh? WTF are you trolling about now?	23:24
MohammadAG	then Venomrush made a post about him	23:24
MohammadAG	he's not trolling	23:25
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MohammadAG	I remember that	23:25
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achipa	Jaffa: the basketball dude, sio2 I think	23:25
MohammadAG	yeah, him	23:25
Jaffa	MohammadAG: "Trust, what trust? Did you believe something you read on maemo.org?"	23:25
RST38h	Jaffa: I will warn you next time I am trolling, so that you can get popcorn in advance	23:25
* Arkenoi wonders if there is any chance alien dalvik for maemo will be released to general public		23:25
RST38h	Mohammad: ironically, current Extras* pretty much shows that you can do without organized QA	23:25
MohammadAG	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44928	23:26
* achipa would advise Arkenoi to have low expectations		23:26
MohammadAG	my search skills are ftw ^ :P	23:26
RST38h	Mohammad: A few common sense safety checks + a forum to comment on each app do the job well	23:26
Jaffa	MohammadAG: sio2 is the only large trust abuse, apart from the widespread voting up by authors of their own packages - but that's never been explicitly ruled out	23:26
RST38h	Arkenoi: In short,no	23:26
Arkenoi	RST38h, why, if they already do have it working?	23:26
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Arkenoi	Why just trash it for no reason?	23:27
RST38h	Arkenoi: javispedro has visited their booth at MWC	23:27
javispedro	Arkenoi: simply put, they are doing it for the money.	23:27
MohammadAG	Jaffa, was just wondering tbh, I only joined maemo.org last year :p	23:27
Jaffa	Arkenoi: They want to sell it to OEMs.	23:27
RST38h	Arkenoi: They are basically targeting Android app developers who would like to wrap their apps for use on other OSes	23:27
Arkenoi	javispedro, and are they going to sell it?	23:27
Jaffa	Arkenoi: Not to end users	23:27
Arkenoi	Jaffa, what's wrong with selling it to end users?	23:27
javispedro	Arkenoi: to OEMs, which is where the money is	23:27
MohammadAG	well, december 09, joined talk.maemo.org on october 09 I think	23:27
Jaffa	Arkenoi: The internal N900 version provides a mechanism to show it works	23:28
javispedro	RST38h: actually, not developers -- just manufactures.	23:28
MohammadAG	ugh	23:28
javispedro	RST38h: in fact I asked them "why not developers"	23:28
MohammadAG	the iPhone sucks	23:28
javispedro	with no interesting answer..	23:28
MohammadAG	trying to download an app redirects me to a billing page	23:28
Jaffa	Arkenoi: Cos end-users want support, don't follow instructions and the software requires (presumably) getting the apk (presumably)	23:28
Arkenoi	Jaffa, i do not really see how selling it to end users affect their relations with OEMs	23:28
RST38h	javispedro: so, they are simply not interested	23:28
MohammadAG	it's freaking free	23:28
Arkenoi	Jaffa, they can seel it "as is".	23:28
Jaffa	Arkenoi: It's more work for no effort.	23:28
Jaffa	s/effort/reward/	23:29
infobot	Jaffa meant: Arkenoi: It's more work for no reward.	23:29
MohammadAG	Apparently, once you add a card, you can't go back to no card, it stays with them	23:29
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Jaffa	Arkenoi: And Maemo users typically don't buy software.	23:29
Arkenoi	jaffa, well, then why not to release it for free, then? n900 is officially EOLed so it does not affect other sales but may increase popularity	23:29
javispedro	RST38h: wild guess: they are eyeing someone else might want to do what BB seems to want to do (pull in most Android apps into their store). So many $$$ it makes end users or developers markets irrelevant.	23:30
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achipa	btw is is running on meego on the n900 or on maemo ?	23:32
Jaffa	Arkenoi: No idea.	23:32
Jaffa	achipa: Maemo 5	23:32
javispedro	maemo	23:32
javispedro	also, forced portrait =)	23:32
Jaffa	Arkenoi: Presumably because it'd be easier for someone to pirate it/reverse engineer which is less likely in a commercial B2B arrangement with an OEM?</guess>	23:32
divan	javispedro, thanks for the hint. Now I just pass two shared libs to LD_PRELOAD and it works. Well, almost. No all open()s are intercepted. Trying figure out why...	23:33
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Arkenoi	Jaffa: i doubt it. If someone is willing to reverse engineer it, maemo version does not make it any easier than any other	23:33
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Arkenoi	and it does not matter if it was OEMed befor release or not	23:34
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javispedro	the "maemo users don't buy software" point has been raised twice today already	23:37
Jaffa	Arkenoi: If you release it publicly, for free, on Maemo; of course it's more easy to reverse engineer it if you're a competitor than if it's only distributed and integrated into individual manufacturer's devices.	23:40
* SpeedEvil tries to remember when he last purchased software.		23:40
SpeedEvil	(not integrated into a device)	23:40
Jaffa	SpeedEvil: Ooh, good game.	23:40
* Jaffa has absolutely no idea.		23:41
SpeedEvil	It may have been Doom II.	23:41
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Arkenoi	Jaffa: "integrated" just means someone placed it on the internal drive, no difference if you get such a device in hands	23:41
SpeedEvil	Arkenoi: naah - I mean something not embedded - for example the program running in my credit card or SIM.	23:42
GAN900	I bought that stupid animation thing Tim linked on twitter the other day.	23:42
Jaffa	SpeedEvil: Presumably excluding console games (otherwise a discounted Lego Rock Band for Wii earlier today). If including PC games, only one I've bought (ever) is the Orange Box a couple of years ago.	23:42
Jaffa	Arkenoi: Potentially true, indeed.	23:43
Arkenoi	SpeedEvil, it makes some difference, sure, but are they targeting that?	23:43
SpeedEvil	Jaffa: I moremean commercial software - rather than integrated into a single use device.	23:43
Jaffa	Arkenoi: Anyway, I'd love to have it. They don't seem interested. I'm guessing at why <shrug/>	23:43
Jaffa	SpeedEvil: It would have been for RISC OS for me, then. Probably around 1996? Maybe Impression (hmm, that was in 1994)	23:44
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Jaffa	Wow, no wonder I object to even spending $2 on a random game	23:45
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SpeedEvil	I have no in-principle objection to buying stuff.	23:45
SpeedEvil	I've just not found anything I really want to buy.	23:45
Jaffa	No, I meant more of a gut "hmm, not going to pay that for something which might be shit"	23:45
SpeedEvil	Ah.	23:45
Jaffa	Rather than a fundamental philosophical objection to commercial software.	23:46
Jaffa	Hell, I write it by day and used to write it by night :-)	23:46
MohammadAG	heh, angry birds + all level packs is 99c on the iPhone	23:46
SpeedEvil	Oh - my bad.	23:46
SpeedEvil	I did buy the level pack for angry birds.	23:46
* Jaffa has something ingrained like "if it's that good, and it's a popular platform, there'll be something approximating it which is free"		23:46
* Jaffa might have bought Sygic if the N900 had a good car mount around when I last looked at it		23:47
Jaffa	Anyway, N900 dying. Bed time.	23:47
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SpeedEvil	night!	23:47
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divan	LD_PRELOAD method works perfectly with Asphalt5.	23:59

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