IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2010-05-04

DocScrutinizer51	/mode -q #maemo gan900	00:00
GAN900	Hooray!	00:00
mintux	is it possible to load gnome or kde on n900 \| I wondering if I can coding jquery or web app on n900 :P possible ? (or too slow for this ? )	00:00
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tripzero	mintux, i think you are asking for pain	00:00
zokier	mintux, n900 has full featured browser, what else do you need for web apps?	00:00
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DocScrutinizer51	too slow	00:01
mintux	zokier: support javascript completely and a good editor ( with highlight ) and some speed	00:01
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DocScrutinizer51	microb has js aiui	00:02
DocScrutinizer51	editors there's a zillion	00:02
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zokier	and chromium has v8 which is even faster	00:02
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DocScrutinizer51	for speed ask your local dealer	00:03
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SimonLR	GAN900: I'm just razzing everybody.	00:04
SimonLR	I'm here for comic relief.	00:04
Dima202	Where can I check log file of my sip account not connecting? I want to see what the error is.. It was working fine an hour ago and pc sip working fine	00:05
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Dima202	Don't see anything useful in /var/log	00:06
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mintux	if meamo will had new version for example 6 . is it possible to upgrade n900 op system ?	00:08
summel	there will be no maemo 6	00:08
MohammadAG_	summel, what makes you say that	00:09
summel	maemo6 = meego	00:09
MohammadAG_	so from your last statement you said there will be no meego	00:09
summel	no :P	00:09
DocScrutinizer51	mintux: unclear. but probably	00:09
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* DocScrutinizer51 goes teaching summel boolean logics		00:11
* MohammadAG_ looks at his N900 as it's falling apart		00:12
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MohammadAG_	screen moving left/right, qwerty assy has a broken clip	00:12
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summel	my screen is moving up/down	00:13
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summel	:/	00:13
DocScrutinizer51	MohammadAG: get a dummy	00:13
DocScrutinizer51	for the spare parts	00:13
mintux	and another question . I have DVD image movie here that I can mounted easily with VLC player and see them with subtitle . does it support on n900 ? ( player with subtitle support ) and also dvd image ?	00:13
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer51, same parts?	00:13
MohammadAG_	it's kind of weird since I never actually dropped it	00:14
valdyn	mintux: mplayer will support it all, but i cant tell if mplayer is fast enough, try	00:14
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valdyn	mintux: problem might be that you cannot store large files on the n900 though	00:15
mintux	it has 32 Gb ?	00:15
MohammadAG_	and vfat	00:15
mintux	dvd image is only 4 gig	00:15
MohammadAG_	which is the limit of vfat	00:15
valdyn	mintux: maximum file size is precisely 4gig	00:15
mintux	it's not ext3 or ..?	00:15
MohammadAG_	not out of the box	00:15
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mintux	so divx	00:15
valdyn	mintux: its vfat so it can be mounted on windows, unfortunately	00:16
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mece	mintux, I don't think the bitrate from the vfat partition is fast enough for raw dvd	00:16
valdyn	ummm	00:16
mintux	where can I see a complete list of softwares support on maemo 5 or nokia n800 ?	00:16
mece	mintux, divx, xvid and the likes work pretty well.	00:16
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MohammadAG_	valdyn, thinking about something, format all of the 28GBs with ext3, and make a 5MB partition for the windows driver	00:16
mintux	mece: with subtitle src ?	00:16
mece	mintux, dunno, haven't tried.	00:17
valdyn	MohammadAG_: i dont even use windows, but i have not had a need to store large files yet	00:17
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MohammadAG_	same here, but you never know	00:17
mece	valdyn, newer windows use ntfs	00:17
valdyn	mece: so?	00:17
mece	valdyn, eh ok. missed your point..	00:18
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG_: kybd assy frame and slider mechanism quite probably are identical	00:18
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* MohammadAG_ waits for an ext3-enabled MS OS		00:18
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mintux	where can I see a complete list of softwares support on maemo 5 or nokia n800 ? im looking for good IDE or source editor and good players	00:18
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, I'm worried about the ribbon tbh	00:18
MohammadAG_	I doubt that's in the dummy	00:18
DocScrutinizer	hmm, me too now	00:18
mece	mintux, http://maemo.org/packages/	00:18
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SpeedEvil	mintux: why would you be wanting to code on the device?	00:19
DocScrutinizer	for sure it's not	00:19
mece	SpeedEvil, why wouldn't you???	00:19
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SpeedEvil	mintux: I mean - you can - but generally a larger screen and keyboard is more pleasant.	00:19
SpeedEvil	At least for me.	00:19
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* SpeedEvil ponders midgets that use it as a desktop		00:19
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mece	anyway, 's gettin late. Goodnight maemonians.	00:20
mintux	SpeedEvil: first javascript and if I can C/C++ \| just for amusing ( in class :P / in Bus / in university )	00:20
mece	SpeedEvil, more like halflings or gnomes or something.	00:20
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: Ants on pubic viewing ;-P	00:20
trem	nite all, sweet dreams	00:20
DocScrutinizer	public ven	00:20
DocScrutinizer	gnaaAAh	00:20
mece	mintux, i use pygtkeditor. It can be used for other stuff than py :)	00:20
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mece	anyway, really going now. tataa.	00:21
mintux	oh also python	00:21
mece	ok grr.	00:21
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mece	mintux, coding python on device is very nice indeed.	00:21
frals	mhm	00:21
mintux	I'd like to learn python but I don't have enough time . so I want to use my time when I'm outdoor	00:21
DocScrutinizer	yes, python>>js	00:21
* MohammadAG_ slaps frals around a bit with a large trout		00:22
frals	oi i do the trouting around here mister!	00:22
DocScrutinizer	bacon	00:22
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, still can't figure out how tehkseven aka Jon got it removed it 3/4 times	00:22
mece	mintux, python is like programming for children :)	00:22
* MohammadAG_ slaps frals again :P		00:22
mece	mintux, it's so easy it feels fake :D	00:23
DocScrutinizer	3/4 times??	00:23
mintux	mece: how about C/C++ does it has compiler ?	00:23
mece	mintux, so easy an idiot can do it. points at self	00:23
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, once as a preshot disassembly, then a vid for youtube, then the one to remove rice, and finally to fix the slider	00:23
DocScrutinizer	k, time for a BIG change here. Moving the PC	00:23
mece	mintux, I haven't compiled c/++ on device, but some people do, and say it's fine for that.	00:24
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG_: maybe mine was a wanky freggles one	00:24
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mintux	mece: I know python . my programing language is php so if I can run apache (include php mods ) I wondered to use it	00:24
mece	mintux, there's also easy debian. And debian has.. well everything debian has. so yeah. you can compile on device.	00:24
DocScrutinizer	just broke on looking at it	00:24
lcuk	yes its fine, but space constraints + lack of autotools + lack of dpkg_buildpackage limits it somewhat	00:24
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mintux	mece: easy debian is OS or it append to maemo ?	00:25
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, I wouldn't bet that mine's better tbh, don't have the best luck with these things :)	00:25
mece	mintux, it's a virtual machine	00:25
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MohammadAG_	mintux, kind of like a virtual machine, except it's running without emulation	00:25
mintux	that's great	00:25
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG_: mompls	00:25
FIQ	isn't it as wine then?	00:25
mintux	what os can simulate on it ?	00:26
FIQ	same type of "emulation" i mean	00:26
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mece	damn. Ok I really really going to go now. Bye.	00:26
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mintux	can I use my software that I compiled on my pc linux n900 ? support gtk or another things ?	00:27
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG_: http://www.saremi-mobilfunk.de/product_info.php/info/p4366_Original-Nokia-N900-Hinge-Slide.html says "Nokia N900 Schiebemechanik, inkl. Flex Kabel" ((incl flex cable)) here:http://www.saremi-mobilfunk.de/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=n900&x=0&y=0	00:27
DocScrutinizer	no idea if that's a wong info or what	00:28
DocScrutinizer	tbh I don't see how they can deliver just a cable, as - aiui - it's the whole sceen half PCB with cam, LED, sensors...	00:29
Dima202	DocScrutinizer, can you give me an idea how i can troubleshoot my sip connecting issue?	00:29
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, the crappy screws are the ones on the back slider right?	00:29
DocScrutinizer	and that'll cost a lot more than 30 EUR	00:29
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG_: yes	00:30
DocScrutinizer	Dima202: no idea, lease elaborate	00:30
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, so it might be possible to disassemble/reassemble without removing the ribbon	00:30
MohammadAG_	s/might/should	00:30
Dima202	DocScrutinizer, I am getting Network Error	00:31
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG_: no	00:31
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Dima202	DocScrutinizer, I think it might be trying to ping the host but that is not possible, host is rejecting ping requests	00:31
Dima202	althought the host is online.. my x-lite client connect just fine	00:32
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achipa	did anyone with the pr1.2 leak try out the QtSDK on-device execution thingie ?	00:33
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DocScrutinizer	Dima202: sorry that's really too complex to diagnose from remote. I just entered the details for my sipgate account and was set	00:33
achipa	or was the interest just for the candy and not the actually useful stuff :)	00:33
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mintux	what is gui engine in n900 ? qt or gtk ?	00:33
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MohammadAG_	both, hildon is the desktop manager	00:34
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mintux	hmm	00:34
Dima202	DocScrutinizer, yeah it's been acting up on me.. first it connects for a few days then it stops then it works again.. seems random	00:34
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DocScrutinizer	Dima202: I suspect you got network issues	00:35
DocScrutinizer	SIP is a little awkward behind NATs	00:35
FIQ	how does ssh-server work when using mobile network?	00:36
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Dima202	DocScrutinizer, ok, i can give it DMZ	00:36
FIQ	it wouldn't work, I guess?	00:36
FIQ	as the ip is same for everyone using same operator in same location	00:37
DocScrutinizer	also nota bene SIP may lose inbound connectivity for as long as 60min or whatever your reregistration time is set (Sipgate usually using 60 min afaik)	00:37
DocScrutinizer	Dima202: DMZ might help a lot	00:37
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DocScrutinizer	but also may cause massive battery drain due to ping storms etc	00:38
DocScrutinizer	Dima202: YMMV	00:38
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Dima202	DocScrutinizer, with DMZ on for my N900 same prob :(	00:38
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mintux	does it meamo support Asian language like Persian ? or Arabic MohammadAG	00:39
DocScrutinizer	Dima202: use wireshark to dissect and analyze the network traffic	00:39
Dima202	DocScrutinizer, ok	00:39
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MohammadAG_	mintux, no idea about persian, arabic localization was added	00:41
MohammadAG_	tbh I've never used any language other than english on a device, so I don't really follow this stuff :)	00:42
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mintux	MohammadAG_: you can see Arabic or type it ? If you can persian can be support I think . could you see in your languages ?	00:42
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MohammadAG_	mintux, both, system localization is community-made	00:43
mintux	hmm	00:43
MohammadAG_	mintux, if there is no community-based translation feel free to make one	00:44
kthomas_vh	is there build-essentials package for maemo 4?	00:44
mintux	hmm	00:45
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mintux	its good idea	00:45
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Dima202	odd	00:47
lcuk	kthomas_vh, yes	00:47
lcuk	sdk/tools repository afaik	00:47
lcuk	if its not all the components are there i used to use em ;)_	00:47
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Dima202	This definately has somethign to do with pinging the host. As soon as the host was ping-ABLE i was connect right away. How can I tell the client to ignore pinging the host?	00:49
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mintux	does it run exe on n800 ?	00:52
mintux	*n900	00:52
kthomas_vh	lcuk, I've added the repos and am not seeing build-essentials, so was wondering	00:52
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lcuk	http://maemo.org/packages/view/build-essential/	00:53
lcuk	kthomas_vh, its not a user package so will not show up in app manager :)	00:53
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lcuk	you have to be a ninja :P	00:54
kthomas_vh	apt-cache search ?	00:54
lcuk	usually works yeah	00:54
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kthomas_vh	hmmm	00:54
kthomas_vh	not in this case AFAICT	00:55
frals	bah time to go to bed :<	00:55
trumee	Dima202: i am running my own * server. The N900 has never lost connection on me on 3g	00:55
lcuk	gnite frals	00:56
Dima202	trumee, yeah because you are running your own * server... the server i am using is public and they keep playing with ping/no-ping iptable rules	00:56
trumee	Dima202: i have the register set to 30 seconds	00:56
frals	nn o/	00:56
trumee	Dima202: you know whether qualify=no is set on the server?	00:57
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Dima202	trumee, not sure, how can i check?	00:57
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trumee	Dima202: qualify=no will ask * not to check the client	00:57
trumee	Dima202: i guess you need to check with your operator	00:58
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trumee	Dima202: does your client lose connection?	00:58
Dima202	trumee, i loose connection when i am not able to ping the host	00:59
trumee	Dima202: and you have stun enabled on the client?	00:59
Dima202	because they are messing with iptables (from what i understand)	00:59
Dima202	trumee yes	00:59
trumee	Dima202: if you cant ping the server they cant ping you back i guess. it needs qualify=no on the server then	01:00
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trumee	Dima202: with that setting * will not ping back to N900 to check if its alive or not	01:01
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Dima202	trumee, but thing is x-lite on pc connects to it regardless of ping ability	01:02
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trumee	Dima202: xlite sends some keep alive packets i think	01:04
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MohammadAG_	made a script in /usr/bin and named it R, shorter than root, sudo gainroot, or sudo su :P	01:32
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arachnist	MohammadAG_: there's a statistics-oriented programming language named R	01:39
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MohammadAG_	arachnist, it doesn't run on the N900 :)	01:39
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arachnist	MohammadAG_: sure about it?	01:40
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MohammadAG_	nope, but R isn't something I need :)	01:40
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rcg	arachnist: there is an R package for the n900	01:40
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* SpeedEvil stabs broken bots.		01:41
rcg	havent tested it myself .. just saw it in the program manager	01:41
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MohammadAG_	someone please /ban ScriptRipper_ :)	01:43
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* SpeedEvil wonders what he's trying to paste.		01:44
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MohammadAG_	actually it should get gzlined by freenode	01:44
arachnist	SpeedEvil: maybe his irc client is just doing a lots of /whois on joins	01:44
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DocScrutinizer	hmmm	01:51
DocScrutinizer	fixed?	01:51
MohammadAG_	seems to have worked	01:51
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jelmer	DocScrutinizer: 'evening	01:51
jacekowski	idoru failed again	01:51
jelmer	DocScrutinizer: have you heard back about your N900 yet?	01:51
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DocScrutinizer	jelmer: hm?	01:52
jacekowski	hmm idoru is not on this channel	01:52
jelmer	DocScrutinizer: Sorry, I might be mistaking you for somebody else.	01:52
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DocScrutinizer	jelmer: maybe not	01:52
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DocScrutinizer	jelmer: just shoot	01:53
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jelmer	DocScrutinizer: IIRC we talked about issues with the screen on the N900 a couple of weeks ago	01:53
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DocScrutinizer	yes	01:53
DocScrutinizer	mine is fixed now	01:53
jelmer	DocScrutinizer: my N900 broke down and IIRC yours did too and you sent it in	01:53
jelmer	DocScrutinizer: nice; did they tell you what the problem is?	01:53
jelmer	I'm going to take mine in tomorrow.	01:54
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DocScrutinizer	alas no, though I really petered them to	01:54
DocScrutinizer	pestered	01:54
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DocScrutinizer	took ~1 week	01:54
DocScrutinizer	all data lost, of course	01:54
DocScrutinizer	seems they swaped the FPC with all the cam, sensor, LED etc mounted on it	01:55
DocScrutinizer	jelmer: take s good crisp shot of your touchscreen, it seems prone to bends and ditches during the swap procedure	01:56
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jelmer	DocScrutinizer: Thanks for the tips, I'll remember to backup and take some pictures before I send it in.	01:58
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jacekowski	there are 2 kind of people	01:58
jacekowski	the ones that make backups	01:59
jacekowski	and ones that will make backups	01:59
DocScrutinizer	show the pics to the shop where you hand it it, so they can acknowledge they represent the current state	01:59
arachnist	there are 10 kinds of people	01:59
summel	jacekowski: i never make backups :P	01:59
arachnist	the ones who understand binary, and the ones who don't	01:59
jacekowski	i was thinking about stating it that way	01:59
jacekowski	but that would be there are 100 kinds of people , the ones that understand binary and make backups .........................	01:59
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DocScrutinizer	why backups, data is changing permanently	02:03
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jacekowski	because data loss is pita	02:04
jacekowski	and i used to make only backups of "important" data	02:04
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DocScrutinizer	nah, useless as asking for the time, it changes permanently so you never get a precise info.	02:04
jacekowski	but you just learn that anything requires you to spend time to recover is important	02:04
arachnist	data loss is a pita	02:04
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* arachnist has learned that and stores all of his important data (along with loads of non-important) on 6x1.5TB drives in raidz2 (think: raid6)		02:05
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: anyway there's a sweetspot where time to restore backups > time to regenerate the data	02:06
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DocScrutinizer	of course that depends on how cute your backup/restore tools are	02:07
njsf	re	02:07
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jacekowski	even with simplest backup tools it's ussualy faster to recover from backup	02:07
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arachnist	simple tar + gzip in fast (to "compress" blank data) seems to be the fastest thing around	02:08
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: see, I made a backup of all the data on N900. But restoring it is even more a PITA than it was to create the backup. So I still have that suspicious OS on my device, and restoring the prev state would kill the more recent data	02:08
jacekowski	that's why you take daily backup	02:09
jacekowski	( i use exchange for my contacts/calendar/mail )	02:09
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DocScrutinizer	even that doesn't help, if you don't restore immediately	02:09
jacekowski	so that's not a problem	02:09
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jacekowski	so i have constant backup of my phone	02:10
jacekowski	most important things anyways	02:10
DocScrutinizer	yeah, exporting all my contacts would help a lot	02:10
jacekowski	time to sleep	02:10
jacekowski	good night	02:10
MohammadAG_	Night	02:11
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pupnik_	PING 1272935489 588807	02:12
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DocScrutinizer	pupnik_: thanks for the friendly reminder	02:16
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pupnik_	to go to bed DocScrutinizer ?	02:18
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DocScrutinizer	hope I thoroughly nuked the whole freenode server ;-P	02:22
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Termana	good morning	02:22
pupnik_	i thought i could ping just the freenode server with that btw, sorry	02:23
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MohammadAG_	pupnik_, I'd ping ChanServ or sth, not a whole channel :)	02:24
DocScrutinizer	pupnik_: nah, nm. Thanks for pointing at it	02:24
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chem\|st	I still dont get it... what do people not understand in NDA?	02:29
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MohammadAG_	chem\|st, the ND part	02:29
arachnist	chem\|st: some people still think that while being under NDA you'd still want to release whatever you're working on to the community and that it would do anything good	02:30
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chem\|st	;)	02:33
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MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, it's back	02:44
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DocScrutinizer51	huh?	02:45
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MohammadAG_	that lol	02:45
MohammadAG_	* ScriptRipper_ (~mmohring@p4FDBD8FE.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #maemo	02:45
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DocScrutinizer51	damn, 5h of irc with full backlight permanently (3h over 3G), and bat is at 20%	02:56
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DocScrutinizer51	~botsnack	02:57
infobot	DocScrutinizer51: aw, gee	02:57
DocScrutinizer51	phhhoo, was a bit too quiet here	02:57
DocScrutinizer51	anybody out there?	02:58
SimonLR	HELP	02:58
SimonLR	My foot fell asleep. HELP.	02:59
DocScrutinizer51	ok the chan still accepts everz nonsense ;-)	02:59
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SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: 5h active?	03:05
SpeedEvil	oh	03:05
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: hmm, not good, but not bad as well?	03:06
SpeedEvil	I read later the 'only 3h 3g'	03:07
DocScrutinizer	yeah, backlight at 100% brightness and on/off ratio, and 3h of 3G - that sums up	03:08
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* DocScrutinizer wonders idly about the backlight-brightness adjusting daemon		03:17
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DocScrutinizer	iirc it's also closed source	03:17
jacekowski	some things should just exist as small kernel modules	03:17
DocScrutinizer	which honestly is rather hilarious	03:18
jacekowski	imo, somebody should start a project to rewrite all parts like that as open source	03:18
jacekowski	so there would be fully functional open source replacement	03:19
DocScrutinizer	err, that's called meego	03:19
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, qwerty12 wrote the toolbar changer	03:19
jacekowski	not whole os replacement	03:19
DocScrutinizer	nevertheless we are planning to kill closed bme eventually	03:19
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: yes, I remember	03:19
jacekowski	i'm happy to help with that	03:20
DocScrutinizer	and I also remember it fights with the closed shit, and often loses	03:20
DocScrutinizer	at least on N810 it's absolutely obvious	03:20
ShadowJK	it's the ambient brightness + optional dynamic contrast into brightness setting that's closed really :)	03:21
SpeedEvil	I have the backlight thingy installed	03:21
SpeedEvil	plus I have a queen beecon (silly name but great applet) that echos 2 > relevant sysnode	03:21
SpeedEvil	2 is the dimmest it will go	03:21
ShadowJK	Apparently there's a team in a controlled darklab doing that	03:21
SpeedEvil	~70mA vs ~100mA	03:21
ShadowJK	but it's not so nice in real life when sensor can't tell direct and ambient light apart	03:22
DocScrutinizer	setting the system brightness to 100% and the toolbar app brightness to 20%, the real brightness jumps to whatever was touched last, but sometimes switches to system 100 level for no obvious reason	03:22
SpeedEvil	ShadowJK: camera!	03:22
DocScrutinizer	Samsung OMNIA is doing it that way. has no amb lite senor, uses front cam	03:23
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DocScrutinizer	honestly, I mean c'mon, there's a set of sysfs nodes to read out the amblight sensor, and there's sysnodes to control the screen backlight. What's the use of a silly closed source daemon sitting in between them? WTF?	03:25
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ShadowJK	Well I don't care about ambient light, what matters is if the background is making screen very dim, or if there's light bouncing off the screen making the screen surface bright	03:26
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DocScrutinizer	err, yes?	03:27
ShadowJK	als and cameras can't give useful info to control the screen brightness :)	03:27
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DocScrutinizer	so kill it	03:27
ShadowJK	better than nothing I guess	03:28
DocScrutinizer	no, actually a binary blob interfering with a nice community driven applet is worse than nothing	03:28
tripzero	my n900 pissed me off today. got stuck in portrait mode when i was trying to pull up a contact during a call	03:29
DocScrutinizer	hmmm	03:29
tripzero	i don't know what i did	03:29
DocScrutinizer	"steps to reproduce" ??	03:30
tripzero	haha, no clue	03:30
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* tripzero tries and fails to reproduce outside of a call		03:31
SimonLR	ShadowJK: camera can give useful info to control the brightness.	03:33
SimonLR	ShadowJK: check lumin values and adjust based on that.	03:33
DocScrutinizer	SimonLR: yes, I agree	03:33
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: any idea what that daemon is called? (the one managing the backlight)	03:34
SpeedEvil	Also, it can look at angle of sun, and accel	03:34
ShadowJK	mce probably	03:34
DocScrutinizer	fsck	03:34
DocScrutinizer	~lart mce and bme	03:35
* infobot whacks mce and bme with a giant beaver's tail		03:35
njsf_	tripzero: mine annoyed me more at becoming non responsive to touch when I was trying to answer a call	03:35
njsf_	probably the old hildon-home problem, but impacting call answering not good	03:35
DocScrutinizer	hildon-home problem?	03:35
njsf_	or hildon-desktop maybe	03:36
DocScrutinizer	hmm	03:36
njsf_	the home where the n900 becomes unresponsive but if you kill hildon-home it starts responding	03:36
njsf_	someone in the hildon-home team suggests the problem is some other app doing constant screen updates thus waking hildon-home	03:36
MohammadAG_	hildon-home are the widgets, -desktop is the window manager	03:37
DocScrutinizer	aaah widgets, yeah	03:37
MohammadAG_	so blame widgets	03:37
njsf_	It could have been an interaction between recaller and panucci maybe	03:37
Dima202	%stats	03:37
njsf_	since I have pannuci opened even if paused at the time	03:37
DocScrutinizer	recaller sounds suspicious	03:38
MohammadAG_	don't have any problems and my desktop is full of widgets	03:38
MohammadAG_	not those two though	03:38
DocScrutinizer	though that would probably cause issues with audio, not with responsiveness	03:38
njsf_	panucci is an app, not widget	03:38
MohammadAG_	I found the conversations widget caused a reset	03:38
njsf_	recaller is a widget	03:39
njsf_	yes, I removed the conversations widget, it was useless to me	03:39
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njsf_	does not keep track of which messages I had seen on the actual conversations window	03:39
* DocScrutinizer doesn't like widgets very much anyway		03:39
DocScrutinizer	I also doubt the whole widget concept is well thought	03:40
njsf_	I currently just have the fm transmitter one, the OMWeather, the recaller and calendar one	03:40
njsf_	although since Ovi Suite removed tethered Outlook calendar sync it is useless to me, so I'll probably remove the calendar one	03:40
DocScrutinizer	aiui all widgets share one process, and just one failing widget can bork the whole thing	03:41
njsf_	yeahh there should be some limits, like a very high nice setting on hildon-home ;D	03:41
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njsf_	the problem I guess is that python widgets are in another process....	03:42
DocScrutinizer	there should be independent processes for each widget, so a runaway widget won't bork the whole desktop	03:42
MohammadAG_	anyone got any idea how to get the playing song name from terminal?	03:43
DocScrutinizer	lol	03:43
MohammadAG_	something involving gst_renderer	03:43
DocScrutinizer	gst_renderer?	03:43
MohammadAG_	njsf_, killall python :P	03:43
MohammadAG_	think so	03:43
DocScrutinizer	hmmpf	03:44
DocScrutinizer	dbus foo bar boo	03:44
njsf_	DocScrutinizer only if with they don't hose stuff by having too many runnable processes	03:44
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, dbus is highly over my head	03:44
DocScrutinizer	uhuh	03:44
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MohammadAG_	no idea how qwerty12 gets that stuff	03:45
DocScrutinizer	dbus is easy	03:45
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DocScrutinizer	getting the methods and their parameters right is the art/magic	03:45
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MohammadAG_	com.nokia.mafw.renderer.metadata_changed /com/nokia/mafw/renderer/gstrenderer	03:46
MohammadAG_	got those, no idea how to use them :)	03:46
DocScrutinizer	that's not dbus' fault though when things like telepathy come with a mindboggling dbus API that nobody is able to understand, and you got no clue where to look for the manpage	03:46
DocScrutinizer	yeah, see above	03:47
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DocScrutinizer	if I were maemo distro maintainer, I'd kick every app and the responsible developer down all the way to southpole and back, if they dare to come without a decent manpage that has a description plus example for each and every dbus call implemented in that app	03:49
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DocScrutinizer	with heavy boots	03:50
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njsf_	DocScrutinizer: I could not agree more. What good are integration interfaces if they are not well designed or worse undocumented?	03:52
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DocScrutinizer	yep	03:52
DocScrutinizer	>:-((	03:52
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DocScrutinizer	alas our 'distro maintainers' are the worst of all in that respect	03:54
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tripzero	fear not, meego will fix all	03:54
tripzero	:P	03:54
DocScrutinizer	the Nokia closed source crap doesn't even suppord dbus introspection	03:54
tripzero	ew, that is pretty bad	03:54
DocScrutinizer	how evil is THAT?	03:54
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MuJ	who cares anything about dying "distro?"	03:55
SimonLR	DocScrutinizer: What do you mean by "dbus introspection"?	03:55
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tripzero	ie, implementing that org.freedesktop.dbus.interospection method to return xml for your dbus objects	03:55
b-man	hald-addon-bme, bme-rx-51, ect	03:55
SimonLR	Fair enough.	03:56
DocScrutinizer	SimonLR: compare:	03:58
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DocScrutinizer	Nokia-N900-02-8:~# mdbus2 com.nokia.alarmd	03:58
DocScrutinizer	Nokia-N900-02-8:~# mdbus2 org.freedesktop.Notifications	03:58
Dima202	Dying ?	03:59
Dima202	We die.. but the code lives on	04:00
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MohammadAG_	<DocScrutinizer> Nokia-N900-02-8:~# mdbus2 com.nokia.alarmd LOL	04:00
MohammadAG_	/	04:00
MohammadAG_	it's more sad than funny	04:01
DocScrutinizer	yes, actually it's really sad	04:01
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe I chosen a poor example, but anyway that's what dbus cracks told me: Nokia hasn't implemented introspection in their closed shit	04:03
DocScrutinizer	which is a violation of dbus design rules aiui	04:03
DocScrutinizer	at least it's nasty	04:03
MohammadAG_	and n00bs like me don't understand it :P	04:04
DocScrutinizer	yeah, same here	04:04
ShadowJK	I wonder what kind of response "lack of introspection" bugs would get	04:05
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DocScrutinizer	I really wonder why Nokia hasn't contracted a gifted wellknown author to write O'Reilly Maemo Unleashed	04:05
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: try it	04:05
ham5	gonna contract you docscrutinizer	04:05
DocScrutinizer	ham5: I'm an abysmal author	04:06
ham5	:)	04:06
DocScrutinizer	would need a ghostwriter ;-P	04:06
SpeedEvil	I'm a great ghostwriter.	04:06
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ham5	I run debian.	04:06
SpeedEvil	Occasionally bang on the keys in a random manner.	04:06
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MohammadAG_	ShadowJK, I don't think they'll stay on the bugtracker :P	04:06
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG_: it's really hard to delete something from bugtracker	04:08
DocScrutinizer	virtually impossible aiui	04:08
MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, no delete button?	04:08
MohammadAG_	wow	04:08
DocScrutinizer	check the ticket number sequence	04:08
ham5	n900 bad ass ?	04:08
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DocScrutinizer	probably you won't find voids	04:09
MohammadAG_	Bug 1	04:09
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1 test - ignore it	04:09
MohammadAG_	guess so	04:09
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DocScrutinizer	you bet they had removed bug #1 if they had a reasonable way to do so	04:09
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DocScrutinizer	you can edit bugs aiui, even to a point where it's an empty meaningless ticket, but you hardly can remove a ticket as soon as it's away from tail	04:11
MohammadAG_	not with my permissions though :)	04:11
DocScrutinizer	same is true for comments n tickets I've been told	04:12
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DocScrutinizer	probably due to the nature of he DBMS you can't take out a record from in between	04:13
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Macer	wow. chromium has gotten way better than when i last tried it	04:17
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Macer	is there a chromium pkg for maemo? :)	04:17
Macer	maybe easydeb has one	04:18
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SpeedEvil	ges	04:19
SpeedEvil	yes	04:19
SpeedEvil	in extras-devel	04:19
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Macer	seriously?	04:19
Macer	heh	04:19
Macer	that was like one of those wishlists	04:19
ham5	f google	04:19
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ham5	u should be shot	04:19
ham5	are you kidding	04:19
Macer	huh?	04:20
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jacekowski	Macer: it's still work in progress	04:20
Macer	chrome is the best browser i've used so far :) .. better than ie, safari, and ff	04:20
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jacekowski	Macer: but i don't have time to do anything with it	04:20
Macer	jacekowski: will be nice to see how it goes	04:20
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jacekowski	sometimes i find hour or two to do something	04:21
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MohammadAG\|ZzZ	Night #maemo \o	04:21
jacekowski	but it would be helpfull to have chrome dev to help ( or little bit more comments in code )	04:22
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jacekowski	and there is something i would like to have more	04:23
jacekowski	which is dalvik on n900 and iphone emulation	04:23
jacekowski	but both require lot of work	04:23
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DocScrutinizer	dalvik??	04:30
SpeedEvil	the android vm	04:31
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b-man	dalvik on the n900 is way more likely to happen than an iphone emulator ;)	04:35
b-man	it's too bad that 'android application compatibility layer" project for ubuntu never took off :(	04:36
tripzero	too bad android sux and doesn't use standards	04:36
ham5	f google	04:37
ham5	yea	04:37
ham5	!	04:37
tripzero	and also, doesn't care one bit on working with others	04:37
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ham5	they want that $$	04:38
tripzero	that's why meego, IMHO, has a better approach than android (upstream first vs. forking upstream)	04:38
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b-man	tripzero: more like upstream vs. completely re-engineering the linux userspace & kernel in a lousy way lol	04:41
tripzero	ie "fork and screw up"	04:42
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tripzero	fork and fsck?	04:42
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DocScrutinizer	hmm fork&fsck sounds good - sold	05:10
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DocScrutinizer	~ff	05:10
infobot	methinks ff is even in dutch	05:10
DocScrutinizer	~ff is also fork&fsck	05:11
infobot	okay, DocScrutinizer	05:11
DocScrutinizer	~ff is also or Android	05:12
infobot	okay, DocScrutinizer	05:12
DocScrutinizer	~ff	05:12
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, ff is even in dutch, or fork&fsck, or or Android	05:12
tripzero	lol	05:12
DocScrutinizer	blah	05:12
DocScrutinizer	btw	05:13
DocScrutinizer	~android	05:13
infobot	methinks android is an Open Handset Alliance Project by Google or an alleged Open Source phone software stack that's really not open. http://code.google.com/android/, or if it's sometime actually freed, someone might port it on the neo, but the provided binaries are incompatible	05:13
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tripzero	nice	05:13
SpeedEvil	Oooh! Out of date even.	05:14
SpeedEvil	(as someone did)	05:14
DocScrutinizer	lol, largely	05:14
DocScrutinizer	yup	05:14
* DocScrutinizer shrugs		05:15
DocScrutinizer	~tell #openmoko-cdevel about android	05:16
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DocScrutinizer	you bitch!!	05:16
luke-jr	Android is actually non-free?	05:16
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Termana	Plus, the Android stack is completely open now	05:16
luke-jr	I mean, beyond mere vendor stuff	05:16
Termana	AFAIK	05:16
Termana	luke-jr, There were a couple of things like the telephony stack and whatnot that were originally closed, but I believe they are open now	05:17
luke-jr	hum	05:17
DocScrutinizer	completely open and completely ff	05:17
DocScrutinizer	exactly what the world needs	05:17
Macer	wow. i don't care too much for google but wow... chromium is awesome heh	05:18
Termana	DocScrutinizer, ff?	05:18
Macer	it is way better than the garbage i used a while back :)	05:18
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tripzero	~ff	05:18
DocScrutinizer	~ff	05:18
infobot	i guess ff is even in dutch, or fork&fsck, or or Android	05:18
Termana	ah	05:18
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DocScrutinizer	duh, tripzero you've been faster than me ;-P	05:20
tripzero	slightly ;)	05:20
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DocScrutinizer	well let's put it this way, you plus your oingtime via freenode to infobot was faster than mine	05:22
DocScrutinizer	s/oing/ping/	05:22
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: well let's put it this way, you plus your pingtime via freenode to infobot was faster than mine	05:22
DocScrutinizer	on my end of the continuum I've been faster than you	05:23
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* DocScrutinizer wonders if that's a good example of Einsteins relativity theory		05:25
tripzero	:P	05:25
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DocScrutinizer	the model for train-hating geeks	05:26
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DocScrutinizer	WTF??! my ssh to N900 doesn't accept any input except ^C anymore :-o	05:28
DocScrutinizer	on ^C it spits out a newline with $PS1	05:29
DocScrutinizer	actually it accepts a blindly entered 'date^J'	05:30
DocScrutinizer	hehe 'stty sane^J'	05:31
arachnist	DocScrutinizer: ^C twice and blindly input "reset"	05:31
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DocScrutinizer	stty sane did the job	05:32
DocScrutinizer	thanks anyway	05:32
DocScrutinizer	#!/bin/sh \n## file /usr/local/bin/apt-get \nif [ $1 -eq install ]; then \n$@ && echo '$@' >$HOME/installed-aps.sh \nelse \$@ \fi	05:40
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pgas	-eq is to compare numbers	05:47
luke-jr	[ "$1" == 'install' ]	05:48
luke-jr	ftw	05:48
pgas	== is a bashism	05:48
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Stskeeps	yes it is	05:49
luke-jr	so use bash	05:49
luke-jr	:D	05:49
DocScrutinizer	grmppf	05:51
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pgas	or just use =, but yes quote "$1" "$@"	05:51
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KnightStalker	Hey,I wonder where I could find the option which I could say if the web pages can use my GPS?	06:17
KnightStalker	I am trying to get Google Maps work btw	06:18
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DocScrutinizer	any ideas why...	06:22
DocScrutinizer	Nokia-N900-02-8:~# echo $PATH	06:22
DocScrutinizer	/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin/X11	06:22
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DocScrutinizer	still calls /usr/bin/apt-get, when I enter apt-get as cmd?	06:23
DocScrutinizer	Nokia-N900-02-8:~# which apt-get	06:24
DocScrutinizer	/usr/local/bin/apt-get	06:24
tripzero	odd	06:24
DocScrutinizer	but evidently /usb/local/bin/apt-get calls something different than apt-get does	06:25
tripzero	hash -r	06:25
DocScrutinizer	hmm	06:25
DocScrutinizer	thanks	06:25
DocScrutinizer	I hate busybox	06:25
tripzero	lols	06:26
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KnightStalker	No one?	06:30
DocScrutinizer	well, just 9 lines. but works: http://paste.debian.net/71901/ apt-get_improved	06:31
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DocScrutinizer51	well, I have to admit at least this time it's been my fault, as every shell seems to know hash -r. It's just that 'which' is telling lies to me	06:44
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DocScrutinizer51	and even that's not correct according to the merwe specs	06:46
DocScrutinizer51	anyway bash rehashes automatically	06:46
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Dima202	I have decided to start excersising, is there anything out there which will enable me to hand my n900 on neck or strap it to a hand?	06:51
Dima202	hang*	06:51
Dima202	probably straping to a hand is better idea	06:51
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Dima202	+bluetooth headphones for a bit more radiation exposure	06:54
asjWrk	DocScrutinizer51: n900 doesn't use bash by default...	06:55
DocScrutinizer51	orly	06:55
asjWrk	so don't assume it acts like bash :)	06:55
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DocScrutinizer51	the first line in installed-apps.sh is '/usr/bin/apt-get install bash' though ;-)	06:57
asjWrk	but you have to execute it, it's /bin/bash not /bin/sh	06:57
DocScrutinizer51	yesyesyes	06:58
DocScrutinizer51	I'm well aware of that	06:58
raster	DocScrutinizer51: docz!	06:59
DocScrutinizer51	moinmoin rater	06:59
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Dima202	Would class 2 sdhc be enough to play video? or better be safe and get class 4?	06:59
DocScrutinizer51	raster even	06:59
DocScrutinizer51	hmm	07:00
* DocScrutinizer51 wonders if there's anymore class2 out there		07:00
Dima202	tons on amazon	07:00
Dima202	16gig under $40	07:00
raster	DocScrutinizer51: wassap?	07:01
raster	wtf is class stuff again	07:01
raster	i once knew	07:01
Dima202	2mb/s?	07:01
DocScrutinizer51	kicking N900 usb hostmode in the arse	07:01
raster	but why they cant just say "read rate: X MB/s , write rate Y MB/s"	07:01
raster	i dont know	07:01
DocScrutinizer51	nobodz knows	07:02
DocScrutinizer51	grrr neeed to remap z and y now	07:02
raster	probably because 2mb/s looks so pathetic	07:02
raster	:)	07:02
Dima202	So I better buy class 4+?	07:03
Dima202	and not be a cheap bastard	07:03
DocScrutinizer51	class4 for sure is good enough	07:03
raster	ooh class == m/s minimum xfer	07:04
raster	they dotn say if its read or wreite	07:04
Dima202	read prob/	07:04
raster	my guess is write is slower so its going to be your minimum write rates	07:04
DocScrutinizer51	cool	07:04
raster	in my experience i can pull read rates of 15m/s off any vaguely modern sd card i have floating about	07:04
raster	http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/speed_class/	07:04
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Dima202	hmm, my n900 internal memory is about 8 - 10 mb/s from what i've seen (write speed)	07:05
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asjWrk	video streams the n900 can decode won't be over 2mb/sec	07:06
asjWrk	plus read is faster than write	07:06
raster	http://www.sdcard.org/developers/tech/sdxc/	07:07
raster	damn	07:07
DocScrutinizer51	mine too slow atm - page doesn't load	07:07
raster	i hadnt heard of that yet	07:07
raster	up to 2tb supported	07:07
Dima202	I see a class 10 16gig microsdhc for $100 but it's just too much	07:07
DocScrutinizer51	yep	07:07
* raster wonders who will be able to afford that sucker when it comes out		07:07
asjWrk	Dima202: I have a class 2 16gb	07:07
DocScrutinizer51	sdxc is funky	07:07
raster	funky chickens	07:07
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asjWrk	Dima202: the biggest problem is filling them, 16gb at 2mb/sec is pretty slow	07:08
DocScrutinizer51	ok that page never loads	07:08
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Dima202	I was going to use it for dual booting meego and storage (flac, avi, mkvs) as 2x it will be slooow :(	07:09
raster	Dima202: well it all depends what u are willing to live with	07:09
raster	saying "penough to play video" - yes	07:09
raster	class 2 is	07:09
* luke-jr notes at least N8x0 probably can't go beyond Class 4 anyway		07:09
raster	u can play a nice 64kbit video stream no worries	07:10
raster	:)	07:10
asjWrk	640k is enough for anyone	07:10
Dima202	uhuh	07:10
DocScrutinizer51	how fast kis class4:	07:10
DocScrutinizer51	?	07:10
raster	4m/s "transfer rate minimum"	07:10
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer51: lrn2google	07:10
raster	doesnt say if read and write rates differ (likely do)	07:11
raster	and its a minimukm guarantee	07:11
raster	nota "it actually mostly works much better than that"	07:11
swc\|666	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Digital	07:11
DocScrutinizer51	luke-jr: learn to read backscroll	07:11
raster	do class 2 = sm/s, 4 == 4/ms 6 == 6 m/s etc.	07:11
luke-jr	NO U	07:12
raster	"minimum transfer rate"	07:12
* swc\|666 needs a class 45 microsd		07:12
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* \|R wants a class 45 microSDXC 128GB		07:13
* luke-jr steals it from \|R		07:13
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* swc\|666 would settle for a 512mb nand in his n900		07:14
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* luke-jr mostly pretends his handhelds don't have NAND		07:15
DocScrutinizer51	NAND is rubbish	07:15
raster	nand should die for all but bootloaders	07:15
raster	(ie bios)	07:15
KnightStalker	Where could I tell the browser that requesting GPS position from websites are allowed?	07:15
Dima202	I have made a decision i'll be getting a $20 8gb class 6 microsdhc :) seems best value atm	07:16
DocScrutinizer51	KnightStalker: nowhere?	07:16
KnightStalker	o.O	07:16
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asjWrk	KnightStalker: I beleive there's a plugin that would help you there	07:16
raster	Dima202: rule of thumb generally is "3rd from the top" is best value	07:16
KnightStalker	How to install it =)	07:16
raster	generally	07:17
asjWrk	KnightStalker: like any other browser plugin	07:17
Dima202	raster, took me about 20 minutes to figure it out :p	07:17
KnightStalker	well firefox should say "Missing plugin" but it doesn't :\	07:17
asjWrk	KnightStalker: next time there's an ad on a page should it popup "Missing ABP" ?	07:18
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KnightStalker	there is no ad :\	07:18
luke-jr	too bad there's no popular removable NAND/NOR cards	07:19
* asjWrk bangs his head on a concrete wall		07:19
luke-jr	to avoid dealing with all this block emulation crap	07:19
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microlith	well	07:21
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asjWrk	KnightStalker: anyways, look in at App Manager, there are browser plugins in there	07:21
microlith	no point in not doing block emulation with NAND, since you have to access it like that anyway	07:21
DocScrutinizer51	/mode +m #maemo	07:21
DocScrutinizer51	night	07:21
KnightStalker	oh right =)	07:21
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ShadowJK	microlith, yeah but the block emulation pretends it's 512 byte blocks when it's more like 256kbyte	07:22
microlith	ah, true	07:22
KnightStalker	but it would be great if I had the name of the plugin <3	07:22
microlith	and even with the move to 4k sectors it's still short	07:22
ShadowJK	yes	07:22
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luke-jr	microlith: you don't.	07:22
microlith	rather, isn't the 256K block the eraseblock size, with read/write being smaller normally?	07:23
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* microlith hasn't worked with NAND much		07:23
ShadowJK	microlith, in practice sequential writes are fast and random access slow	07:23
microlith	maybe I will more when micron finishes off buying us :D	07:23
luke-jr	UBI > unknown SD emulation anyhow	07:24
ShadowJK	if you write 4K and go off reading something somewhere else, the card then reads in 256k, modifies 4k, erases a new block, writes 256k, all before serving your read..	07:24
microlith	yeah	07:24
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ShadowJK	So that works out to roughly "never do random writes"	07:25
ShadowJK	Which makes all normal filesystems crap :)	07:25
microlith	at least, not when you're stuck with a single chip	07:25
raster	thus the existence of thgnis like btrfs, nilfs2	07:26
ShadowJK	it's not like multichannel helps with anything except sequential speeds anyway :)	07:26
ShadowJK	btrfs did not do very well in my test :)	07:26
microlith	even on more recent SSDs?	07:26
raster	in theory it should be able to account for "the behavior of block emulation" as part of the fs structure	07:26
raster	at least thats its intent	07:27
raster	maybe not as good as it could be	07:27
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ShadowJK	When did the conversation change to SSDs? SSDs have beefy ARM processors and >=64M of RAM to run a LogFS-like filesystem on the nand chips :)	07:28
microlith	ah	07:28
ShadowJK	Except maybe the jmicron based ones, they just suck mostly	07:28
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raster	btrfs was intende for "thumbdrives" last i checked	07:29
raster	and linfs2 last i checked was log-fs based	07:29
raster	as that allowed also for fs versioning and snapshots, rollback etc.	07:30
ShadowJK	in my test consisting of timed copy of squid's cachespool to SD card, nilfs2 was fastest, and ext4 was only twice as slow. btrfs 3 times as slow as nilfs2.	07:30
raster	so it at least fits in with sd-card logic	07:30
raster	aaah u tried nilfs2	07:30
raster	nilfs2 has been on my list of fs's to watch	07:30
raster	never gotten to playing with it tho	07:30
raster	in concept it seems about right	07:31
raster	and the idea of being able to version the fs sounds good to me	07:31
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raster	if i was making a complet eproduction os + product	07:31
ShadowJK	nilfs2: 16 minutes, ext4: 29 minutes, btrfs: 46 minutes, ext2: 110 minutes	07:31
raster	i'd have a minimal rescue os and boot loader in nand	07:31
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ShadowJK	Same chunk of data being copied to same thumbdrive	07:31
raster	(minimal rescue os can connect to a network in one of many ways and download a fresh install onto mmc/sd if all poo hits the fan)	07:31
raster	and the entire rest of the os on mmc (be it emmc or removable)	07:32
raster	and nilfs2 would be high on my list of choices	07:32
raster	as - for doing thigns like upgrades, you can literally tag your fs before a package upgrade	07:32
ShadowJK	nilfs2 has other less desireable behaviour though, like the garbage collector constantly writing tons of data :)	07:32
raster	and ifr poo happens - roll back to the prior version	07:32
raster	the rescue fs shoudl also be able to do this too	07:32
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raster	and always maintain up to N snaps in the past just in case	07:33
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raster	hmm	07:33
raster	well i guess nilfs2 needs tuning	07:33
raster	:)	07:33
ShadowJK	Well, it has only written 642 gigabytes onto my 8 gigabyte thumbdrive since March 10th, when I moved the 3 gigabyte squid cachespool onto it, which sees maybe 50 megabytes max of real writes per day ;)	07:34
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raster	i wonder why	07:34
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raster	probably the "eraseblock size" thjing	07:35
raster	ie write 2 bytes to the log	07:35
raster	end up having to write 256k	07:35
ShadowJK	No it's unaware of eraseblocks	07:35
raster	and repeat way too often	07:35
raster	then why so much?	07:35
ShadowJK	beats me :)	07:35
raster	hehehe	07:35
ShadowJK	The author basically agrees that it's not "optimized" for use on storage that has wear&tear constraints :)	07:36
raster	well lets see	07:36
raster	u likely have 100k write cycles	07:36
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raster	if not more	07:36
raster	lets say thats 1 month	07:36
raster	(roughly)	07:36
raster	u have 1250 months of writing available for your thumbdrive	07:37
raster	you just used up 1	07:37
raster	so still over 100years left :)	07:37
ShadowJK	Yeah so given that this thing has a max write speed of about 6 megabytes per second, it'd still take ages to wear it out	07:37
ShadowJK	I don't see why people worry about wear ;)	07:37
raster	(for now i dumbly assume the log rolls thru the device and so will spread itself out :))	07:38
raster	same	07:38
raster	when u had lkike 1k or 10k cycles	07:38
raster	it mattered	07:38
raster	these days 100k+ is the norm	07:38
raster	an d given the massive space to spread the writes out over now... it's getting moot	07:38
ShadowJK	I'm hoping LogFS will be ready soon :)	07:38
raster	lets see what happens	07:38
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* RST38h yawns at the world		07:49
DocScrutinizer	(I don't see why people worry about wear) hehehe - tell that to our OC-antimater guy	07:50
* DocScrutinizer yawns on his own		07:51
raster	oc-antimater?	07:51
* Dima202 farts		07:51
* raster burrps		07:51
DocScrutinizer	http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2010-04-28.log.html#t2010-04-28T04:28:05	07:52
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RST38h	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=51728 is hilarious	07:53
RST38h	Anyone willing to guess posters' distribution by the country of origin? =)	07:54
Dima202	Interesting, can I make a recording play through the phone? I made a rec. of a conversation I wanted to play to another caller	07:56
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DocScrutinizer	well, if recaller can record a call, then I'd guess the inverse is possible as well	07:57
Dima202	I'm guessing I would ahve to write the code myself	07:59
Dima202	If I want the option	07:59
RST38h	there would be a problem	07:59
DocScrutinizer51	hmm probably	08:00
RST38h	all pa clients get priorities	08:00
RST38h	the phone gets the higher priority	08:00
RST38h	whoever else will try playing audio while the phone is running, will hang	08:00
RST38h	and you won't be able to quit your app either, not until phone app is done using pa	08:00
RST38h	(the latter behaviour is a bug, there is a tracker for it)	08:01
DocScrutinizer51	freggles	08:01
Dima202	well mplayer plays the file but no sound	08:02
RST38h	correct	08:02
* DocScrutinizer51 once more appreciates the strictlz analog design of GTA02 gsm audiopath		08:02
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DocScrutinizer51	ah and before I forget	08:04
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DocScrutinizer51	~nuke pulseaudio	08:04
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at pulseaudio ... B☢☢M!		08:04
RST38h	http://gizmodo.com/5530298/swineattack-an-iphone-game-for-pig+hating-bacon-lovers <=== pass this url to lcuk =)	08:04
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* RST38h just yesterday got an email from some guy who complained about audio not playing in VGBA on desktop Ubuntu		08:05
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RST38h	Apparently, no /dev/dsp*. Poor sucker =)	08:05
DocScrutinizer51	RST38h: how's call-mute implemented?	08:06
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DocScrutinizer51	would the pa clients be stopped so my app could take over?	08:07
RST38h	Doc: I doubt it	08:08
RST38h	But you can try	08:08
DocScrutinizer51	not right now	08:09
DocScrutinizer51	but basically yes	08:09
DocScrutinizer51	know how to do that	08:09
RST38h	either use an sdl game, or any of my emulators	08:10
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RST38h	call yourself, while the game is running, see what happens to the game audio	08:10
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RST38h	actually, my stuff will not do for this test: I shut down sound and pause on the focus-out events	08:10
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Termana	Did anyone see that earthquake?	08:10
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Termana	I think it just made a split	08:11
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DocScrutinizer51	is there anz decent doc about the general audio-config/concept/howto?	08:11
DocScrutinizer51	huh?	08:11
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DocScrutinizer51	earthquake??	08:12
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DocScrutinizer51	thys ys ypsylyn!!! grrr and zis iz zet	08:13
DocScrutinizer51	~trout DocScrutinizer	08:13
* infobot slaps DocScrutinizer around a bit with a large trout!		08:13
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njsf_	DocScrutinizer51: seems like your keyboard is shaking a lot	08:13
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DocScrutinizer51	not used to my new qwerty	08:14
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* DocScrutinizer51 is a wertzu Fritz		08:15
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Termana	I see my sticky tape helped the situation	08:17
DocScrutinizer51	I'm really tempted to try and nuke the whole cpu-eating PA shit, and set up a sane ALSA only audio config	08:19
RST38h	ALSA does not work properly	08:21
DocScrutinizer51	aah	08:21
RST38h	There is just enough ALSA to make PA work	08:21
RST38h	Ask pupnik for details	08:21
DocScrutinizer51	seems to me PA doesn't work properly	08:21
RST38h	well it works, more or less	08:21
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RST38h	it's a pig on resources and has a few nasty bugs but it works	08:22
njsf_	I have never seen PA not using unreasonable amount of cpu after a while. to me it seems PA in a embedded/mobile setting is a poor decision, unless massive profiling/improvement effort is put to it...	08:22
DocScrutinizer51	sow how for god's sake could alsa perform anz worse?	08:22
RST38h	ALSA just does not work on Fremantle	08:23
RST38h	Try using it and you will know	08:23
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njsf_	DocScrutinizer51: my guess is that having mixed streams are just painfull in ALSA	08:23
DocScrutinizer51	ok, so that's a fremantle problem	08:23
DocScrutinizer51	no thez're simple, easy, and just work	08:23
RST38h	And yes, I would really love if the Tentacled One just ate up all the well-wishing motherfuckers inventing their own audio frameworks	08:23
njsf_	the comment i have for that is: mixed streams tend to stutter on the n900 anyway, so PA is bringing no benefit	08:24
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RST38h	Starting with the PA guy, then the ALSA people, the ARTS guy, Raster (sorry, Raster), all the way down, until the only thing remaining is the /dev/dsp \| /dev/audio \| /dev/pcm API	08:25
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raster	RST38h: esd wasnt an audio framework	08:25
raster	it was an access layer	08:26
RST38h	raster: As far as I am concerned, it is the same shit =(	08:26
raster	/dev/dsp simply didnt work properly	08:26
njsf_	I think I should go deaf,... that would be better for me. no need for the n900 to be a phone at all :) hmmm I guess I would just need it to have TTY interface... oh wait it does not :(	08:26
raster	/dev/dsp simply didnt work properly	08:26
DocScrutinizer51	PA is based on a concept of freewheeling clocks that eat cpu like mad even when there's no more audio at all. ALSA is based on a clocked master slave chain	08:26
RST38h	raster: But I have to give you a credit here: at least ESD worked	08:26
raster	u had no mixing unless the hw directly did it AND driver supported multiple dsp opens	08:26
raster	that was at that time for 1 card only	08:26
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raster	and no other audio daemons existed other than nas	08:26
RST38h	raster: correct, and that is how dsp works	08:26
raster	and nas had zero adoption	08:26
raster	yup	08:27
raster	so useless if u want to play your music and get "beep - you have new mail"	08:27
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RST38h	raster: so, the logical solution would be to somehow allow multiple dsp opens in the kernel and implement mixing	08:27
raster	esd should have of course gotten more development	08:27
raster	like handling the case where hw did mixing and simply direct streams direct to /dev/dsp with no software mixing	08:27
raster	probably a better quality audiomixer	08:27
RST38h	raster: instead, people all went in different directions and implemented their own "frameworks" =(	08:28
raster	and some way to actually know real latency	08:28
RST38h	raster: you are describing ALSA	08:28
raster	yes	08:28
RST38h	raster: And ALSA is a freaking mess.	08:28
raster	alsa cam along much later	08:28
raster	i started esd in mid 97	08:28
RST38h	ARTS has been there already	08:28
raster	i was pissed off that i couldnt play my music and get other audio	08:29
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raster	i didnt hear of arts till much later	08:30
njsf_	raster: you rasterman from Enlightment fame ? :O	08:30
DocScrutinizer51	fsckng arts never worked for me	08:30
RST38h	Doc: None of these frameworks ever worked for me, so no wonder	08:31
raster	1998 actually	08:31
RST38h	Doc: Raster's ESD kinda worked on N8x0, although it was missing documentation	08:31
raster	thats what the arts page seems to say - june 1998	08:31
raster	http://www.arts-project.org/gen/newsarchive/news_1998.html	08:31
DocScrutinizer51	and since all the herd of idiot sheeps went PA on all the distros, it broke mz desktop audio completely	08:32
RST38h	ah the site is still around???	08:32
raster	RST38h: esd always worked for me	08:32
raster	:)	08:32
RST38h	raster: Yes, I have guessed that =)	08:32
raster	esd was simple tho	08:32
raster	it was a dead-simple socket that could with some ldpreload magic pretend to be a basic /dev/dsp	08:32
raster	all esd did was mix and play mixed output	08:32
raster	offer mixed output as another stream u can get via a socket	08:33
raster	it shoudl have always worked as long as /dev/dsp worked	08:33
raster	if app was written to use esd - no reason it shouldnt work	08:33
Dima202	good night	08:33
raster	but it wasnt very expansive in features	08:33
raster	njsf_: maybe	08:34
raster	:)	08:34
raster	anyway	08:34
RST38h	"However, it turned out that some people don't want a sound server at all" -- ARTS author	08:34
raster	esd pre-dated all known "audio frameworks" on linux	08:34
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raster	you can blame everyone else for simply wanting to re-invent the wheel as opposed to adding whatever it is they needed to esd	08:34
raster	:)	08:34
RST38h	raster: Except for OSS :)	08:34
raster	oss is a driver	08:34
RST38h	raster: Ok, accepted	08:34
* RST38h blames PA guy for not reusing ESD		08:35
raster	it has no logic beyond at the most basic level exposing some sound card controls	08:35
raster	alsa is much better	08:35
DocScrutinizer51	alsa also is a driver	08:35
njsf_	for the record esd is simple enough to be useful and sane	08:35
RST38h	raster: Except that ALSA never really works in its entirety	08:35
njsf_	I always used it when possible	08:35
raster	DocScrutinizer51: alsa includes things like dmix - u are exiting driver realms there	08:35
DocScrutinizer51	yes	08:35
RST38h	raster: The API is so freaking large and so specific to particular PC audio hardware...	08:35
njsf_	I prefer to do esdsp on old OSS needing apps	08:36
raster	what esd needed is simply adding more features for the things it didnt do	08:36
DocScrutinizer51	and dmix just works	08:36
raster	like mixer controls - esd never prtended to worry about the audio mixer	08:36
raster	as i said	08:36
raster	latency querie	08:36
raster	sbetter soft-mix code	08:36
RST38h	Let us petition Nokia to switch back to ESD =)	08:36
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raster	njsf_: i designed esd to be the way it was for easy of adoption for oss apps	08:37
raster	as thats all that existed at the time	08:37
pupnik	mornin raster et al	08:37
raster	the common oss /dev/dsp use case was open /dev/dsp - do some ioctls to set samplerate/format - then just write data until done	08:37
raster	so esd worked that way	08:37
RST38h	Doc: Here is pupnik, he should know all about ALSA on Maemo5	08:37
RST38h	ehlo pupnik	08:37
raster	(excetp the ioctls were steram header inf before streaming your audio)	08:37
raster	pupnik: hey hey :)	08:37
raster	anyway	08:38
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raster	esd is old by now	08:38
flux	raster, hm, does esd also predate nas?	08:38
raster	and as such - alsa does everything i wanted for esd to do	08:38
raster	so its kind of moot	08:38
ljp	or mute :)	08:38
raster	flux: no. nas pre-dates esd. but nas came with the issue that it was hard to port to	08:38
raster	i looked at it	08:38
raster	and went "bah - no one is going ot use that api considering their current oss code"	08:39
DocScrutinizer51	nas is overkill for all I know	08:39
raster	nas also had no foothold in the linux world	08:39
raster	it didnt ship with slackware or redhat at the time	08:39
raster	for a while i was pondering if audio should maybe become an extension to x	08:39
njsf_	NAS was always clunky. only useful thingy was to make other students NCD X-terms play weird sounds as prank (since they started unprotected) :D	08:39
raster	since your diusplay went via x	08:40
raster	why now sound too? it makes sense	08:40
njsf_	this is ofcourse circa 93 :)	08:40
raster	yeah	08:40
RST38h	Hmmm...Eldar continues to advertise Samsung any way he can	08:40
raster	nnas was over-engineered at least for the simple thign i wanted	08:40
raster	"i want to play my mp3.. and hear my other audio sounds if i want to - regardless what /dev/dsp wants to do"	08:40
RST38h	Not sure what he meant by showing a mediocre macro photo made with a Samsung and claiming that "the megapixel race is over" though	08:41
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pupnik	i prefer non-eldar topics in the morning	08:41
njsf_	raster: besides the _network_ bindings which kinda make the pranks possible, first thing to do was always to wrap it in tcpwrappers and deny anything but 127.0.0,1 :D	08:42
DocScrutinizer51	and PA was designed as a low latency framework for hard realtime apps aiui	08:42
DocScrutinizer51	latencies <50ms	08:42
raster	hehehe	08:42
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raster	yeah	08:42
DocScrutinizer51	which nobody cares even for phonecalls and shit like that	08:43
raster	but man that was long ago	08:43
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DocScrutinizer51	but that's basically why PA sucks	08:43
flux	docscrutinizer51, nobody cares about it even for games?	08:44
DocScrutinizer51	sucks CPU, sucks reliability...	08:44
RST38h	pupnik: ah come one, we all like a little eldar in our life	08:44
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raster	pa's big issue is partly its floatingpoint mixer	08:44
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DocScrutinizer51	50ms??? nah	08:44
flux	in any case, I found that the function to estimate current audio latency is great	08:44
raster	tthat doesnt help in the slightest	08:44
pupnik	so much time to make up every way you turn... time we have wasted on the way...	08:44
raster	one reason u dont see pa and the likes used for audio is if u look at the audio infra for games and the likes	08:45
raster	they use ring buffers	08:45
raster	and rely on dma to suck out audio from the buffer in a loop	08:45
RST38h	correct	08:45
raster	as opposed to writing it as u go	08:45
RST38h	and there is pa_simple for that	08:45
raster	so any game writer will go to the audio api that provides that kind of feature with the least hassle	08:45
raster	(and latency etc.)	08:45
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RST38h	So, PA will stay for another year or two, then get replaced with another "better" audio framework	08:46
RST38h	So cicrcle of suffering never breaks	08:46
flux	pa_simple is quite nice aswell, although I didn't get low latency out of it (but I didn't even try)	08:46
flux	however the full api doesn't seem to be quite documented, or didn't I just look at the right places?	08:46
RST38h	none of these audio apis are documented	08:47
RST38h	authors are too busy extending them	08:47
raster	hahahaha	08:47
* DocScrutinizer51 sighs in dispair and waves... Night		08:47
raster	not esd	08:47
pupnik	cu DocScrutinizer51	08:47
RST38h	do not believe me? check the same alsa	08:47
raster	that hasnt been extended in more than a decade :)	08:47
RST38h	raster: ok, esd is just not documented, that is all =)	08:47
pupnik	pa_simple looks like my kinda girl!	08:48
RST38h	pupnik: same problems though	08:48
RST38h	pupnik: high cpu usage, latency, and it locks up due to that priority bug	08:49
raster	esd has docs	08:49
raster	esd.h is commented	08:49
RST38h	raster: right. =)	08:49
njsf_	Oh cannot ever forget the NFS 2 sources comments	08:50
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raster	RST38h: everything u need to use it is there	08:50
njsf_	at one point in the xdr file they had all the structure documentation (as in little over the structure member names and some obvious linkages)	08:51
njsf_	followed by:	08:51
njsf_	From here on you're on your own. Good luck. There be dragons	08:51
njsf_	:)	08:51
raster	that be dragons is quite a popular phrase	08:51
raster	:err	08:51
njsf_	The course assignment was encryption at the XDR layer so NFS would be encrypted	08:51
raster	har be dragons	08:51
raster	:)	08:51
raster	thar	08:52
raster	bah	08:52
njsf_	naturally I was pissed at the helpfullness of the comments :D	08:52
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RST38h	raster: ...and after a while I even figured out how ot use it!	08:53
raster	:)	08:53
RST38h	raster: Would much rather prefer to fopen("/dev/dsp0","wb") and use standard ioctls there though	08:53
RST38h	raster: "/dev/esd0" would do too =)	08:54
raster	well esddsp did that job for u	08:54
raster	if u used /dev/dsp and ioctl's... it'd just intercept and translate	08:54
raster	not to mention it provided a nice example of how to port from raw /dev/dsp to esd calls	08:55
raster	(that would even fall back to /dev/dsp for u if there was no esd around etc.)	08:55
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raster	tho i havent used esd myself in years	08:55
raster	as alpha has handled dmix for me	08:55
raster	err alsa	08:55
raster	so my goal for esd is there	08:55
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raster	it'd have been nice to have some kind of loopback kernel driver/module	08:56
pupnik	esddsp gets me sound on a couple of n810 apps. yay.	08:56
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raster	audio and video are both a mess on linux	08:56
raster	audio because it just has no good management structure	08:57
raster	sure - alsa mixes and allows access	08:57
raster	but come on.. that mixer is just wrong	08:57
raster	pa offers structure	08:57
raster	ie basically an audio manager	08:57
raster	but it kicks in some nice overhead	08:57
raster	that can be fixed - someone just needs to do it	08:57
raster	not sure why phonon exists.. but thats how it goes	08:58
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raster	gst is orthogonal	08:58
raster	as its a layer on to to do encoding/decoding	08:58
raster	so thats anothe rmatterentirely	08:58
pupnik	looking over PA on maemo5 was educational for me.	08:59
pupnik	another fun thing to do is look at what the alsa driver exposes with alsamixer (pasuspender)	08:59
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pupnik	so many mysterious fun controls!	09:00
raster	thats part of the problem	09:00
raster	too many controls	09:00
raster	sometime3s i event shake my head at there being both pcm and master volume	09:00
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raster	i guess thanks to cd-roms and their audio analogue loopback legacy	09:01
raster	hooray	09:01
pupnik	hehehehehe	09:01
DocScrutinizer51	no, you have analog loopback from alll the input channels	09:02
DocScrutinizer51	'monitor'	09:02
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raster	there wouldnt have been a need if it were not for cd roms	09:03
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DocScrutinizer51	if you want to do a dubover on an existing track then theres need for sure to add input monitor to the output with 0 latency	09:05
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DocScrutinizer51	what means NO pcm	09:05
DocScrutinizer51	but analog loopback	09:05
pupnik	good point i think :)	09:05
DocScrutinizer51	from input to output	09:06
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raster	bah	09:06
raster	who needs that?	09:06
raster	other than for very special case "professional" use	09:06
DocScrutinizer51	who needs audio?	09:06
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raster	99% of use is either - play some audio from some source (digital ie wav, mp3, - comes out as pcm)	09:06
raster	or record some audio from an external source (and get pcm from card)	09:07
raster	and do both at the same time	09:07
Corsac	hmhm, there's no way to access changelog.Debian.gz after installation?	09:07
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mece	oops	09:32
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pupnik	On http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_examples/ svn checkout https://garage.maemo.org/svn/maemoexamples/branches/fremantle-sdk-testing/maemo-examples should be changed to https://vcs.maemo.org/svn/maemoexamples/branches/fremantle-sdk-testing/maemo-examples/ ... apparently	09:47
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ZogG	beta ovisuit is windows only? damn	09:54
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ZogG	beta one	09:54
TigerTael	Does that work with the N900?	09:54
timeless_mbp	doubtful	09:55
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TigerTael	Oh... ;/	09:55
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mece	TigerTael, apparently they are looking for beta testers for ovi suite, particularly people with N900	10:02
mece	TigerTael, so at least the goal is to get it working on N900	10:02
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narayan44	I'm just waiting for google maps for my n900	10:06
narayan44	ovi maps blows	10:06
narayan44	well its not completely worthless	10:06
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alterego	mece: who's looking for beta testers? And where do I sign up? :D	10:10
mece	alterego, ovi suite 2.2 beta.	10:11
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tybollt	mece: supposed N900 support?	10:12
alterego	Ah, yeah. I see it.	10:12
mece	tybollt, that's the point of getting N900 users as beta testers I suppose, yeah.	10:12
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tybollt	mece: googlers says there's a thread on tmo - clicking the link leads to a 404	10:13
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tybollt	is this one of those SUPAH S3KR\|T betas?	10:14
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ZogG	TigerTael timeless_mbp it's in the list - but in known issues is written all the problems - that are "not supoorted" most of them	10:18
Tuukka	tybollt, yeah the testers are supposed to keep their lips tightly closed	10:19
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Tuukka	: \|	10:19
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mece	Tybollt: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=51800	10:20
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aliin19	heyyyyy \	10:21
mece	tybollt, I believe some threads have been merged, hence the 404	10:21
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timeless_mbp	ZogG: ooh, url for known issues?	10:22
ZogG	it's there - can't share it if you are not beta tester you wouldn't be able to see it anyway	10:22
ZogG	gotta go	10:22
ZogG	bye	10:22
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tybollt	jajaja	10:25
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crashanddie	yo from Europe	10:36
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mece	yo from europe also!	10:37
mece	:D	10:37
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TigerTael	yo from South Africa	10:37
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mece	crashanddie, are you not normally yo:ing from Europe?	10:39
crashanddie	nope	10:39
crashanddie	was in Australia for the past 6 months	10:39
mece	TigerTael, Funky, I was just wondering if there are many maemites in africa. Apparently at least one :D	10:39
mece	crashanddie, ah yesh. Now I recall.	10:40
crashanddie	TigerTael: howzit bru?	10:40
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crashanddie	TigerTael: verstaan jy afrikaans of nie?	10:41
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tybollt	crashanddie: you got to fly back all the way then? News said Ireland is gearing up to shut down their flying again and others may follow.	10:42
crashanddie	tybollt: yeah, flew to singapore then london, and london to france, no problems with flying	10:42
TigerTael	crashanddie, yah.	10:43
tybollt	crashanddie: as someone who had to travel athens - stockholm in a bus due to that silly ash-thing some week ago I can tell you - LUCKY BASTARD ;)	10:44
Jaffa	Morning, all	10:44
crashanddie	tybollt: well, I spent 35 hours in planes, lucky is probably not the right word, but yeah, traveling from Oz to Europe on a coach wouldn't have been good either :P	10:44
crashanddie	tybollt: the fuck were you doing in athens anyhoo? Starting a revolution?	10:45
crashanddie	yo Jaffa	10:45
tybollt	;)	10:45
dottedmag	Why there are there uncompressed copies of sounds from /usr/share/sounds in ~/.local/share/sounds ?	10:45
dottedmag	Is that some kind of cache?	10:45
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tybollt	crashanddie: no I was in africa actually - egypt - tanning my pink skin. athens was as far into europe as anyone dared fly	10:46
crashanddie	ouch	10:46
tybollt	but yeah - greece right now - seems a bit of a clusterfuck :S	10:46
crashanddie	so did I miss something with regards to PR1.2?	10:47
crashanddie	it was leaked?	10:47
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TigerTael	crashanddie, leaked yes...	10:48
TigerTael	It was totally awesome, peoples phones started going mental...	10:48
fcrozat	but not final 1.2	10:48
fcrozat	a pre-release	10:48
noobmonk3y	lol at the rooms title ;)	10:48
noobmonk3y	nornin alls	10:48
crashanddie	man, what has maemo.org become, apple.com?	10:48
crashanddie	Who the fuck cares about a leaked version?	10:48
timeless_mbp	crashanddie: eh?	10:48
timeless_mbp	oh, you mean macrumors.com?	10:48
narayan44	any good?	10:48
crashanddie	timeless_mbp: yeah, pretty much	10:48
crashanddie	timeless_mbp: yeah, sorry, tmo = fmc	10:49
timeless_mbp	rumors are bad	10:49
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tybollt	crashanddie: yes, yes apparently it was and it was a big ass bruhaha over on TMO during the weekend. Even the "cease and desist" like posts were issued :)	10:49
crashanddie	tybollt: yeah, saw reggie's post	10:49
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lcuk	crashanddie, you should know, open source cares more about copyright than anyone	10:49
crashanddie	lcuk: :D	10:49
tybollt	timeless_mbp: Joe Average thrive on rumours...	10:49
narayan44	I know...right...	10:49
jacekowski	if anybody is interested in flashing his phone with leakyware	10:49
narayan44	I was just about to say	10:49
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jacekowski	i'm happy to break the law and provide him with that firmware	10:50
crashanddie	jacekowski: same rules applies here	10:50
crashanddie	jacekowski: so say one more thing and get uberslapped :P	10:50
* noobmonk3y grins		10:50
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narayan44	to be honest do you trust it??	10:50
lcuk	heya noobmonk3y \o	10:50
noobmonk3y	morning lcuk :D :D	10:50
narayan44	I mean I ran hacked firmware on my motorola v3 for years	10:50
timeless_mbp	would you like a nice brick with that?	10:50
* noobmonk3y is sick in bed today :( - oh well, more coding to do ;)		10:50
crashanddie	I'm actually tempted to spend today building a fake image that will only show a jack-in-the-box going "AHAHA" (the horrible laughter from Jurassic Park)	10:51
TigerTael	narayan44, hacked firmware is different from Alpha firmware.	10:51
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jacekowski	well, stating that filename of that firmware is [censored] and md5sum is [censored] isn't breaking a law	10:51
lcuk	crashanddie, that would make a good app :)	10:51
lcuk	supply your own picture and sound and let people make their own	10:52
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crashanddie	lcuk: my conversation searcher is going along quite nicely	10:52
lcuk	neural upgrade?	10:52
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narayan44	still I'm not adventerous enough to run alpha firmware on my cellphone I use everyday	10:52
lcuk	in all seriousness, good	10:52
crashanddie	lcuk: now have options to search specific dates, specific senders, phone number ranges, specific keywords, and also isn't restricted to sms anymore, I support all conversation types now (and obviously, you can filter which type you want to search)	10:53
lcuk	also, see this lovely piece of open source wizardry for our maemo http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=641035#post641035	10:53
lcuk	portrait sms	10:53
crashanddie	and it is mighty fast	10:53
lcuk	make sure you include mms in that when you are done	10:53
alterego	crashanddie: you're stealing my idea :P I was gonna replace the boot up screen with a rick roll and call it PR1.3 :P	10:53
lcuk	speak with frals	10:53
crashanddie	will do	10:53
lcuk	i dunno where he stores them	10:54
* noobmonk3y throws a trout at frals		10:54
jacekowski	narayan44: n900 isn't a phone	10:54
alterego	crashanddie: I was going to write an app that allows you to generate your own maemo fiasco images and replace the boot screen with any video of your choosing. Thought it would stop people trusting any old source of images ;)	10:54
noobmonk3y	jacekowski, my n900 is my mobile phone, whatcha on about willis	10:54
lcuk	its my phone too	10:54
jacekowski	noobmonk3y: it's a tablet with phone functionality	10:54
narayan44	I know its a tablet with a GSm radio thrown in as an after thought	10:54
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narayan44	but I use it as a phone	10:55
lcuk	no its a phone with awesomeness built in	10:55
noobmonk3y	jacekowski, it is my mobile phone....... dont care what you call it ;)	10:55
crashanddie	lcuk: application starts up in less than a second, and a search takes .4 seconds on average. SQLite is seriously fast, excellent.	10:55
TigerTael	My N900 IS MY PHONE.	10:55
noobmonk3y	lol	10:55
lcuk	yeah crashanddie i know sqlite can handle these small databases wlel	10:55
TigerTael	So don't tell me my phone isn't a phone.	10:55
noobmonk3y	i love this debate :P	10:55
TigerTael	Bloody idiots. ;p	10:55
jacekowski	crashanddie: sqlite is slow if you compare it to big database	10:55
lcuk	no jacekowski	10:55
lcuk	a big database usually has overheads	10:55
lcuk	and copying data etc	10:55
lcuk	small sqlite database should be blinding	10:55
* noobmonk3y hasnt tried using the sqlite yet :\|		10:56
jacekowski	sqlite has overheads on lot of things	10:56
jacekowski	it has to open db, load i	10:56
jacekowski	load it*	10:56
lcuk	sure, but orders of magnitude less	10:56
crashanddie	jacekowski: well, be my guest if you want to run oracle on your n900	10:56
jacekowski	no way to cache stuff	10:56
lcuk	its the microsoft access for linux :D	10:56
* lcuk likes it as a small single user db		10:56
jacekowski	dynamic field sizes	10:56
jacekowski	lcuk: i prefer mysql	10:57
jacekowski	with libmysql	10:57
raster	sqlite isnt bad	10:57
lcuk	you can keep yoursql then :p	10:57
raster	but ... its not amazingly fast	10:57
TigerTael	;)	10:57
raster	http://watchwolf.fr/blog/index.php?post/2009/09/27/Sqlite-versus-Eet	10:57
viliny_	mssql ftw!	10:57
crashanddie	jacekowski: but well, you can't really compare an oracle cluster running on zLinux on mainframes with a database running on an n900	10:57
lcuk	jacekowski, ive got mysql and sqlite in use in different places	10:57
raster	just scroll to the bottom if u want the numbers	10:57
lcuk	on a webserver - totally granted, mysql pwns	10:57
lcuk	but on the device sqlite is quick and effective as long as you dont overload it	10:58
raster	(eet beats sqlite by like about 5x)	10:58
lcuk	(example: i made a 115mb monster)	10:58
crashanddie	gents, I wasn't trying to start a db-war	10:58
raster	in this case the actual kind of usage both are intended for - looking up stuff cached on disk	10:58
crashanddie	I was just saying: calling sqlite from python is a lot faster than I expected	10:58
raster	cas no need for war :)	10:58
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raster	sqlite is decent	10:58
raster	but its far from the most optimal thing out there for the domain intended :)	10:59
crashanddie	meh, sqlite is also the main db on android	10:59
tybollt	Yes I need me a DB on my N900 - so I will install a full blown DB2 - sure!	10:59
crashanddie	feel free to implement your own, I'm going with whatever works and requires least amount of work	10:59
raster	already do	11:00
crashanddie	in this case, sqlite with python bindings is installed on nearly every n900, which means less space requirements for my users	11:00
TigerTael	crashanddie, it sounds good to me.	11:00
raster	eet was written years ago. and its the basis of a lot of tech that runtime decodes data from disk per-widget	11:00
raster	and it works very fast because it was intended to do just that	11:00
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lcuk	nice raster	11:00
raster	sure	11:01
raster	if all you want is "make my app work on an n900 with minimal dependencies" then thats fine	11:01
raster	if u are designing software and looking for a very fast/optimal way to store/save config (from c/c++ apps)	11:01
raster	and otherwise do the same for blobs of data like caches, contacts, etc. etc	11:01
raster	(stuff you read very often, modify rarely) then eet seems ti do better	11:02
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crashanddie	again	11:06
crashanddie	"fast/optimal way to store/save config" is a stupid argument	11:06
crashanddie	You read configuration once, write it once (in most workflows)	11:06
crashanddie	it doesn't require blisteringly fast reaction times	11:06
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crashanddie	unless you read/write your config every millisecond, that is	11:07
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crashanddie	cache shouldn't be in a db, it should be in cache (duh)	11:07
linuxcentos	Morning	11:07
crashanddie	and contacts is hardly something you would read extremely often, again	11:07
linuxcentos	i'm looking to try Qt SDK	11:08
linuxcentos	is it possbile to use Java to develop Qt apps?	11:08
crashanddie	in other words: stop trolling about your db (that for some reason google france can't even find); the best way to convert people is by showing them use-cases (as in, in working applications) where the advantage is obvious.	11:08
linuxcentos	can't find docs on Java + Qt on qt.nokia.com	11:08
raster	crashanddie: depends what yopu mean by cache... have you ever tried to deal wiyth fdo standards? which eman u have to scane lots of directories load lots of .desktop file s - parse them	11:09
tekojo	linuxcentos: no, it's c++ or python	11:09
lcuk	crashanddie, contacts are read more than you think	11:09
raster	scane lots of fs heirachies hunting for icons	11:09
raster	u want caches.	11:09
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raster	and as i mentioned - contacts. they are read very often compared to writes..	11:09
narayan44	haha people flame over anything	11:09
linuxcentos	tekojo: any links to tutorial?	11:09
narayan44	speaking of which has anyone ported emacs to the n900 yet	11:09
raster	incoming call, search for contact. entering a phone numebr, email address etc. - trynig to match what you type to something in your contacts and present completions etc.	11:10
dottedmag	narayan44: It's selling the technology stack -> trying to bring more contributors.	11:10
dottedmag	nicely done, btw.	11:10
tybollt	so	11:10
crashanddie	lcuk: and searching through 8 months worth of is done in .4 seconds, so there really isn't any reason to flame any more :P	11:10
mece	linuxcentos, http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6//index.html	11:10
crashanddie	s/worth of/worth of conversations/	11:10
infobot	crashanddie meant: lcuk: and searching through 8 months worth of conversations is done in .4 seconds, so there really isn't any reason to flame any more :P	11:10
tekojo	http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6/index.html	11:10
mece	tekojo, simple minds think alike	11:11
tekojo	mece you are fast!	11:11
tybollt	out of all this chatter about the new ovi beta... is it clear yet if this is contained to Ovi suite or is it known whether Ovi.com will follow suit and be compatible w/ the N900 soon too?	11:11
mece	linuxcentos, for python: http://www.pyside.org/documentation/	11:11
mece	tybollt, it's just the ovi suite so far, afaict.	11:12
jacekowski	crashanddie: no way it's doing it that fast	11:13
jacekowski	crashanddie: or you are not talking a lot	11:13
jacekowski	crashanddie: how big is that db?	11:13
mece	any pyqt/pyside coders around? I've got a possibly simple issue that I don't know how to solve.	11:13
crashanddie	jacekowski: dunno, n900 is discharged, can't check	11:13
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jacekowski	sqlite doesn't have support for fulltext indexing	11:14
jacekowski	so it can only use naive "bruteforce" search	11:14
raster	hehehe	11:14
dottedmag	jacekowski: wha? fts3?	11:15
pupnik	it would be nice if apt-worker didn't have to bruteforce update everything	11:15
pupnik	but then again, just avoid using HAM and upgrades are painless	11:15
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mece	ok whatevs, perhaps there's a similar solution in c++. So I've got a stacked window, and I want a function run in the main window after I return from the stacked one. How to do that? Alternatively, how do I access the parent window's functions?	11:20
* raster wonders why you don't just hook a callback to the stacked window delete/close signal and run it there		11:20
raster	i assume qt has such a thing...	11:21
Khertan	Hi everybody !	11:21
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* mece tips his hat to Khertan		11:21
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ThoMe	Hello!	11:21
Khertan	mece, sorry cann't help with pyqt/pyside i ve full of strange behavior	11:22
ThoMe	I have a Nokia n900.	11:22
mece	ThoMe, yay you!	11:22
ThoMe	What can I do for to compile to strongSwan (IPSEC, http://www.strongswan.org)?	11:22
mece	ThoMe, tru building with autotools in scratchbox as explained here: http://wiki.strongswan.org/wiki/strongswan/InstallationDocumentation	11:24
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mece	s/tru/try	11:24
jacekowski	ThoMe: ipsec and n900 isn't going to happen	11:24
jacekowski	ThoMe: n900 kernel don't have required modules	11:24
mece	ThoMe, or don't. Thanks jacekowski	11:24
ThoMe	jacekowski: oh, why? oh ok :-(	11:24
ThoMe	jacekowski: and later is this modul available?	11:25
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jacekowski	but you can probably build them	11:25
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mece	jacekowski, any reason why said modules couldn't be added in a custom kernel?	11:25
jacekowski	you can add them	11:25
ThoMe	jacekowski: I? i dont know.. how? :-)	11:26
jacekowski	but if he's asking how to build that	11:26
ThoMe	jacekowski: jo! :P	11:26
jacekowski	then he's probably not going to know how to build kernel	11:26
lcuk	crashanddie, case in point about earlier: http://blog.barisione.org/2010-05/gtk-surprises-on-maemo/	11:26
flashn	you can load them virtually	11:26
lcuk	jaffa you get a mention too :p	11:26
ThoMe	jacekowski: can you help me for built it?	11:26
jacekowski	not really	11:27
jacekowski	i've got no idea what toolchain nokia is using to build n900 kernel	11:27
ThoMe	https://garage.maemo.org/projects/vpnc/ <<only ipsec with shared-secret-key and i think ike V1	11:27
ThoMe	i need auth via certificate and ike V2	11:27
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jacekowski	and it's probably older than sb toolchain	11:28
jacekowski	so best case scenario is that you will end up with tainted kernel	11:28
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wazd	boarning people :)	11:32
Jaffa	lcuk: Ah, yes - I remember what barisione wanted to talk about now :-)	11:32
DocScrutinizer	roaming	11:32
tybollt	are you a boar now?	11:32
lcuk	lol jaffa :)	11:33
barisione	Jaffa: yeah, I will report a bug for hermes in the next days :)	11:33
Jaffa	barisione: Is there a spec for what file should be used for the contact picture?	11:33
Jaffa	barisione: (i.e. location)	11:33
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barisione	Jaffa: you can put it where you want, but there is a but related to the deletion of the avatars	11:35
barisione	I will tell you later in a bug report	11:35
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lcuk	barisione, this is optimal location and the existing methods will work i gather? (since i know there are other apps which perform similar duties been asked about/notified wanting to do similar)	11:39
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mece	ah solved. parentWidget() duh.	11:45
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alterego	So, are we placing bets on PR1.2 being released today?	11:51
Corsac	see topic	11:52
alterego	I'll take, by-the-end of the month.	11:52
alterego	oops	11:52
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Scelt	it's dump that we are not allowed to talk about pr 1.2 without a punishment.	11:58
RST38h	Yes, talk about it and you will never get it	11:58
viliny_	Scelt: Dumb	11:58
Scelt	it's like kicking if talking about GTK	11:58
Scelt	viliny_: oh, typo :)	11:58
viliny_	:]	11:58
alterego	What about Gtk in PR1.2?	11:59
alterego	I just want Qt4.6 :(	11:59
Scelt	No! Don't say the forbidden words!	11:59
Scelt	I sense the dark side of the Force is strong in you	11:59
Tuukka	~pr1.2	12:00
infobot	pr1.2 is, like, not here yet. Stop asking. Read the topic Just stop asking. Read the topic. AND STOP ASKING. If you ask then release moves by another week, so do not ask.	12:00
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viliny_	a week each time eh? i don't think i'll have the n900 in 24 years :/	12:01
Surfa	do you guys know, if tehere is support for pan panu role in n900, official apparently not, but unofficial?	12:01
alterego	Hah	12:02
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Khertan	alterego, qt isn't the solution	12:07
Khertan	really	12:07
Tuukka	Going to order a dataplan today :)	12:07
Khertan	gtk is far away better :)	12:07
Khertan	believe me	12:07
Khertan	:)	12:07
alterego	Khertan: I might prefer Gtk, but Qt is the future ...	12:07
alterego	There's no denying that.	12:07
* Khertan is going to replace moblin on his netbook ...		12:07
wazd	Khertan: heya :)	12:07
Khertan	alterego, qt isn't the futur ... it one possible future	12:08
Khertan	alterego, qt isn't the futur ... it s one possible future	12:08
Tuukka	full speed (15Mb/s) unlimited usage 13,9e/month	12:08
Khertan	and i believe that you ll come back from this qt everywhere solution :)	12:08
Khertan	and all of this is a matter of preferences	12:09
Khertan	really	12:09
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Surfa	well, if' you want to have somehow reasonable portability between nokia devices, qt may be wise way to go	12:10
Khertan	Ultra speed (0.8 Mb/s) unlimited usage (until you reach 500Mo) with full access (http and https only) 25.90 :) (french isp)	12:11
Khertan	Surfa, portability ... haha !	12:11
Surfa	Khertan, using gtk it's not possible even in theory	12:11
Khertan	gtk on what ? meego ?	12:12
Khertan	it s in the schema showing different component of the plateform	12:12
Surfa	ok, so you just didn't read my first line?	12:12
Khertan	it s words portability that make me laught ...	12:13
alterego	Not just Nokia devices, desktop machines too	12:13
alterego	Maybe even server solutions.	12:13
Khertan	yep	12:13
alterego	I quite like Qt to be honest.	12:13
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Khertan	hum	12:13
Surfa	Khertan, it's so easy to stick one word on the line that contains multiple others too	12:13
Khertan	you ll got same result as with gtk :)	12:13
jacekowski	Khertan: o2 seems to have fair fair use policy	12:13
Khertan	yep	12:13
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Khertan	o2 ?	12:14
jacekowski	yeah	12:14
jacekowski	at least o2 uk	12:14
Khertan	ah sorry :)	12:14
Surfa	o2, that operator you know?	12:14
nid0	o2 uk has a fup but they dont enforce it unless you really really take the piss	12:14
Khertan	didn't know them ... i didn't think they exist in france	12:14
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eluiandil	hi all	12:15
Khertan	we have only 3 isp here in france and i think that the problem come from that ...	12:15
jacekowski	nid0: well i really took a piss and they didn't enforced it	12:15
eluiandil	does maemo 5 have /proc/config.gz ?	12:16
jacekowski	nid0: as far as i know they enforce it different way	12:16
* noobmonk3y prods frals		12:16
jacekowski	nid0: traffic is prioritized by amount of data downloaded	12:16
* frals slaps noobmonk3y around a bit with a large trout		12:16
jacekowski	eluiandil: no	12:16
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eluiandil	if no, how i can get current kernel configuration?	12:16
frals	hows you noobmonk3y?	12:16
nid0	o2 used to apply a speed cap over 2gb afaik, but they abolished the hard limiting a while ago, now they just contact you if you pull in tens of gb and ask you to ease up	12:16
noobmonk3y	:D :D ill, but apart from that, fine :P	12:17
frals	:D	12:17
noobmonk3y	think i've figure out the healthcheck bug :\|	12:17
chem\|st	I need a new weapon... the guys are going nuts on tmo now	12:17
noobmonk3y	just removed the gps and loaction examples :P	12:17
frals	figuring out a bug is usually ":D" :P	12:17
noobmonk3y	lol true	12:17
eluiandil	jacekowski: how i can get current kernel configuration?	12:17
noobmonk3y	ok figured iout where it is	12:17
noobmonk3y	just not why it happens	12:17
frals	noobmonk3y: you should just add a check so it doesnt run it if the user denies access to the gps	12:17
nid0	semi-figured-out then :p	12:17
noobmonk3y	good point	12:18
frals	also still not gotten a link to your git repo!	12:18
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frals	or svn or cvs or whatever :P	12:18
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jacekowski	eluiandil: have you downloaded maemo kernel sources?	12:18
noobmonk3y	lol frals	12:19
noobmonk3y	setting up a git looked like a nightmare	12:19
eluiandil	jacekowski: yes, from http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/k/kernel/kernel_2.6.28.orig.tar.gz	12:19
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* noobmonk3y has very little experience with any of those, so slightly worried i may just bugger everything up		12:20
jacekowski	eluiandil: you need diff as well	12:20
jacekowski	eluiandil: then you unpack it	12:20
jacekowski	eluiandil: patch it with that diff	12:20
jacekowski	eluiandil: and then you will find config files where they should be	12:21
crashanddie	lcuk: interesting link	12:21
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eluiandil	jacekowski: i will try this, thanx	12:21
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frals	noobmonk3y: if you mess up the repo just start again :P	12:23
noobmonk3y	:\| repo? so confused i thought gits just store files?	12:24
frals	yeah the git repository :P	12:24
frals	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Git_%28software%29 !	12:25
Scelt	I'm using git, it's awesome	12:25
Scelt	local commits just rock	12:25
noobmonk3y	:\| which git is best to use? :\| i assume there is more then 1 :P	12:26
noobmonk3y	Scelt, wouldnt have a clue what ya mean by that!	12:26
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frals	apt-get install git-core	12:27
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Scelt	noobmonk3y: you can commit locally changes and then push them to repo instead of just commiting them to repo. the advance is that you can commit code that isn't ready or fully tested yet if you want to try something else in between etc.	12:29
noobmonk3y	ohhh - so without having to repackage everything over and over again?	12:29
Scelt	:)	12:30
noobmonk3y	hmmm but can i do it on the device and my pc? :P	12:30
Scelt	you're going to far. I'm talking about source code, nothing about compiling	12:30
Scelt	too	12:30
noobmonk3y	oh :(	12:30
Scelt	I'm mainly a web developer so not using much compiling at all	12:31
noobmonk3y	frals, on the device i assume?	12:31
frals	noobmonk3y: yes, or wherever you got your code	12:31
noobmonk3y	on a windows vista laptop, and the device :P	12:31
frals	easiest is to register at gitorious.org and create a project there and commit to, or use garage	12:31
noobmonk3y	installing it on the n900 atm :P	12:32
Scelt	github?	12:32
frals	or github i guess	12:32
* KnightStalker LOLs at nokia n8 sneak peak => http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/nseries		12:32
KnightStalker	whats that about :p	12:33
KnightStalker	peek*	12:33
noobmonk3y	hmmmm now you gave me a choice, eeeeeek	12:33
noobmonk3y	which one is easier lol	12:33
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lcuk	frals, noobmonk3y im a member at both github and gitorious	12:34
frals	dunno i use gitorious, works for me	12:34
noobmonk3y	lol thats cos u rock ;)	12:34
lcuk	gitorious is nicer :)	12:34
frals	and i like the webinterface!	12:34
noobmonk3y	ooo i can use openid!	12:34
noobmonk3y	yay	12:34
lcuk	but liqbase is staying on github because i tend to break git repositories when i move them	12:35
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noobmonk3y	hows the mouth lcuk ?	12:35
lcuk	24 minutes from not hurting any more hopefully	12:36
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noobmonk3y	awwwww	12:39
noobmonk3y	right i have a gitorious account!	12:39
noobmonk3y	lol it lost me on the first page :P ssh keys	12:40
noobmonk3y	It's generally located in ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub or ~/.ssh/id_dsa.pub. If you want to use multiple keys you'll have to add each of them seperately.	12:40
X-Fade	noobmonk3y: Use ssh-keygen to create one	12:41
* noobmonk3y thinks to say thanks but thinks X-Fade also just spoke in chinese ;)		12:42
noobmonk3y	http://www.sshkeygen.com/ ?	12:42
X-Fade	NO!	12:42
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noobmonk3y	lol	12:42
X-Fade	That is the worst thing one can ever do :)	12:42
noobmonk3y	haha	12:42
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lcuk	use your n900	12:42
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noobmonk3y	oooo	12:43
noobmonk3y	gotcha!	12:43
X-Fade	Letting your private key be created by a website.	12:43
X-Fade	That opens you up to being hacked.	12:43
noobmonk3y	i'm assuming a passphrase is a sensible idea	12:43
lcuk	its a little ott for some things but depends on your level of security required	12:44
noobmonk3y	hmmm	12:45
noobmonk3y	ok created i think	12:45
X-Fade	noobmonk3y: Ok, then it should be in /home/user/.ssh/id_rsa.pub	12:46
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dottedmag	Is there any cron-like compatibility layer for alarmd?	12:46
X-Fade	Or dsa if you created a dsa key.	12:46
dottedmag	I just want to run some script every day	12:46
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noobmonk3y	yup just found a file	12:46
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noobmonk3y	lmfao	12:50
noobmonk3y	loving the licence choice	12:50
noobmonk3y	(on gitorious)	12:50
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noobmonk3y	any suggestions for licence?	12:51
noobmonk3y	otherwise i may be on wikipedia for a while	12:51
X-Fade	noobmonk3y: Depends on what you want out of it.	12:51
noobmonk3y	wouldnt be open source if i wanted to be a millionaire lol	12:52
X-Fade	If you want people to be able to steal it -> BSD	12:52
X-Fade	If you like the source to be available even after fork -> GPL	12:52
noobmonk3y	ooo gpl sounds fun	12:52
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noobmonk3y	so people can still use it	12:52
noobmonk3y	but my project will be my project	12:53
wazd_n900	hello again	12:53
noobmonk3y	hi wazd_n900	12:53
X-Fade	noobmonk3y: Well, with GPL your project won't be your project exactly.	12:53
noobmonk3y	oh lols	12:53
wazd_n900	people, how can I unpack 7z archive on n900? :)	12:53
X-Fade	noobmonk3y: Anybody can fork it, but they have to give you the source if you ask for it. (If they publish the app)	12:54
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noobmonk3y	ok i want a project to share my code - and allow others to upload obviously :P - but i suppose i need to release the idea of ownership	12:54
timeless_mbp	X-Fade: 'publish' isn't the right word	12:54
timeless_mbp	if i publish an app to a store and charge $1m	12:54
RichardP	I dont suppose theres an app which allows me to use the N900 as a wifi router for mobile data access from a laptop, is there? :)	12:54
jacekowski	timeless_mbp: you can't	12:54
timeless_mbp	and you don't buy it, you aren't entitled to source :)	12:54
noobmonk3y	RichardP, two of them	12:54
jacekowski	timeless_mbp: there is $199 limit as far as i know	12:54
timeless_mbp	jacekowski: why not?	12:54
noobmonk3y	joikuspot and mobile hotspot	12:54
timeless_mbp	jacekowski: i didn't say 'ovi store' :)	12:55
RichardP	noobmonk3y: thanks	12:55
noobmonk3y	:D	12:55
adeus	is joikuspot something else then pre-alpha already?	12:55
X-Fade	timeless_mbp: Yeah, but trying to explain the gpl to a noob in 2 sentences )	12:55
X-Fade	timeless_mbp: Kind of hard ;)	12:55
noobmonk3y	adeus, 1.1 works fine for me	12:55
noobmonk3y	just kick out every few hours though	12:55
noobmonk3y	does*	12:55
noobmonk3y	X-Fade, you did a good job :D	12:55
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adeus	interesting	12:55
adeus	that current version I have works for about 10 seconds	12:56
jacekowski	timeless_mbp: and with GPL one person can buy it and share source with everybody	12:56
adeus	then the device boots	12:56
noobmonk3y	:P	12:56
X-Fade	noobmonk3y: Anyway, ownership and opensource is kind of hard.	12:56
timeless_mbp	jacekowski: find a person w/ a million dollars for me, and we'll talk :)	12:56
jacekowski	timeless_mbp: so you might sell only one million dollar copy	12:56
noobmonk3y	good point	12:56
timeless_mbp	jacekowski: that's ok	12:56
jacekowski	open source doesn't work very well as business model	12:56
timeless_mbp	even after 70% taxes, i'm still better off than i was a year ago	12:56
jacekowski	it works quite well as something to save lot of money	12:57
jacekowski	code reuse and etc.	12:57
noobmonk3y	hmmm ok..... getting there	12:58
noobmonk3y	Add new repository to Healthcheck	12:58
jacekowski	it works out better to reuse somebody else code, give something to community and sell just software that works on top of it	12:58
noobmonk3y	i'm assuming by repository i had a development repo or something to the project?	12:58
timeless_mbp	jacekowski: unfair	12:58
jacekowski	why?	12:59
FIQ	Hmm	12:59
jacekowski	it's how everybody is doing it	12:59
noobmonk3y	ohhhhhhhk	12:59
noobmonk3y	i have a git repo!	12:59
jacekowski	ugh	12:59
jacekowski	use svn	12:59
FIQ	Wouldn't it be possible for the maemo community, or by Nokia to host a repository that have bug fixes and such?	12:59
noobmonk3y	it seems to just be swearing at me a lot and calling me a git. :(	12:59
FIQ	On the parts that is open source i mean	13:00
noobmonk3y	jacekowski, dont tell me that now lol!	13:00
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FIQ	So things can improve before a new fw	13:00
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X-Fade	FIQ: We had that once, it was named Sardine.	13:01
lma	X-Fade: Stskeeps: Re: Community updates for diablo meeting - want to do it now?	13:01
FIQ	Because i feel the "release often" thing doesn't really seems to be crect.	13:02
FIQ	X-Fade: ok	13:02
FIQ	for fremanthle?	13:02
FIQ	-h	13:02
X-Fade	FIQ: No, years ago.	13:02
FIQ	ahh	13:02
FIQ	oki	13:02
FIQ	s/crect/correct/	13:02
X-Fade	lma: Fine by me, I'm around.	13:02
X-Fade	lma: Even better in about an hour actually.	13:02
timeless_mbp	FIQ: who said anything about release often?	13:03
timeless_mbp	sardine was a failure	13:03
lma	X-Fade: ok, I'll be here	13:03
X-Fade	lma: Let's see if Stskeeps wakes up.	13:03
FIQ	isn't "release early, release often" a key thing with open source?	13:04
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Stskeeps	X-Fade: mm?	13:04
X-Fade	Stskeeps: Always works ;)	13:05
Stskeeps	sup?	13:05
SpeedEvil	FIQ: Many projects do largely internal releases	13:05
SpeedEvil	FIQ: Look at firefox, for example.	13:05
X-Fade	Stskeeps: lma has time to meet now, you too?	13:05
X-Fade	Stskeeps: Or actually I prefer to have it in an hour so I can get some lunch before it ;)	13:05
SpeedEvil	or - rather - largely internal development till a release.	13:05
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Stskeeps	X-Fade: i'm in a car towards warsaw on a n900, arrifing in 7 hours, so yes, in an hour is fine with me	13:06
X-Fade	Stskeeps: As long as you aren't driving? :)	13:06
timeless_mbp	FIQ: firefox fwiw releases at <6 month intervals	13:06
timeless_mbp	would you call that often?	13:06
timeless_mbp	there happen to be nightlies	13:06
timeless_mbp	but those can be very crashy	13:07
timeless_mbp	and whether those are actually key to anything is questionable	13:07
Stskeeps	X-Fade: wife driving	13:07
X-Fade	Stskeeps: Good ;)	13:07
FIQ	ok, nvm then. :p	13:07
timeless_mbp	there have been some really interesting bug tracking database studies recently	13:07
timeless_mbp	which roughly show that there's a core group of people whose feedback is critical	13:07
timeless_mbp	and then there's a huge group of people who are mostly time-sinks	13:08
Stskeeps	X-Fade: will join #maemo-meeting	13:08
timeless_mbp	if the studies are accurate and predictive and if my interpretation is valid	13:08
viliny_	sounds like society to me timeless	13:08
timeless_mbp	then one could argue that not releasing nightlies to the general public, but merely releasing them to that core group (which is not called 'core' in the study) would still work	13:09
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timeless_mbp	viliny_: well, now there's documented evidence that the virtual world acts like the normal world :)	13:09
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timeless_mbp	fwiw, i'm a personal believer in release-early-release-often	13:10
timeless_mbp	and mozilla was indeed built upon it	13:10
timeless_mbp	however, i also believe that most users are idiots	13:10
timeless_mbp	and that i don't want idiots wrecking my cellular network	13:10
timeless_mbp	and that i want to be able to make a 911 call when i have an emergency	13:11
SpeedEvil	FIQ: 'nightlies' - you can indeed compile your own apps of the open-source code - there are just no binaries	13:11
timeless_mbp	i do not want my ability to make that call to be hindered by a nearby idiot	13:11
SpeedEvil	timeless: err...	13:11
SpeedEvil	timeless: The cell modem is never going to be opensource. Ever.	13:11
viliny_	timeless_mbp: i'm an ok guy and i'm mostly friendly. I'm good at bunch of stuff but i honestly don't think i would be an asset to a bughunting project :)	13:11
viliny_	so i guess i'm an self-aware idiot	13:11
SpeedEvil	timeless: nothing else in the phone can affect cell networks.	13:11
timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: not quite accurate	13:12
RichardP	timeless_mbp: then shouldnt the cell service provider get their finger out and prevent a single handset from causing issues?	13:12
timeless_mbp	RichardP: that'd be nice	13:12
timeless_mbp	how's it working so far?	13:12
* timeless_mbp points to NYC and London		13:12
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timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: phones can make lots of calls	13:13
SpeedEvil	timeless_mbp: In what manner can a normally operating phone module screw with another one nearby? Other than perhaps using the towers bandwidth, and reducing download speeds?	13:13
SpeedEvil	oh	13:13
SpeedEvil	sure.	13:13
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timeless_mbp	as long as they can do that, then buggy user space can ruin the 911 network	13:13
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timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: but please keep in mind, we aren't talking about 'normally operating phones' here	13:14
timeless_mbp	we're talking about abnormal phones	13:14
SpeedEvil	normally operating phone module	13:14
KnightStalker	Someone help me with my mobile =O	13:15
timeless_mbp	your average human probably can't make more than one phone call per 5s, perhaps 10s, maybe longer	13:15
SpeedEvil	I mean - you can't screw with the code running on that platform	13:15
KnightStalker	its killing me...	13:15
timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: the userspace code can almost certainly start and stop a phone call much faster than a human	13:15
SpeedEvil	timeless: last I played with a cellphone via atd, it was somewhat faster - not enormously faster than 5s	13:15
SpeedEvil	the setup/teardown time was quite long	13:16
SpeedEvil	Admittedly, if you've got a thousand phones in a coverage area all doing that, that would be a problem, but that does seem like quite a stretch.	13:16
timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: are you willing to accept that most idiots aren't going to sit w/ their phone trying to call and hang up from the 911 operator repeatedly?	13:16
KnightStalker	My mobile says "device storge full bluh bluh" every min	13:17
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timeless_mbp	or that if we had such an idiot, we'd be willing to change the label from 'idiot' to 'evil'	13:17
SpeedEvil	And calling 911 is not a bug	13:17
SpeedEvil	It's a feature.	13:17
timeless_mbp	KnightStalker: open xterminal	13:17
timeless_mbp	df -h	13:17
KnightStalker	I already did	13:17
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timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: calling it isn't a bug, sure	13:17
KnightStalker	rootfs is 100% full	13:17
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timeless_mbp	KnightStalker: well, that's your problem	13:17
timeless_mbp	uninstall some stuff	13:17
SpeedEvil	timeless_mbp: I mean - someone has to add that code intentionally	13:18
KnightStalker	uh?	13:18
SpeedEvil	KnightStalker: disable all repos.	13:18
KnightStalker	Okay =)	13:18
SpeedEvil	KnightStalker: should give you some space while you work something out	13:18
SpeedEvil	KnightStalker: having the repos enabled alone takes several megs	13:18
timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: buggy code can do all sorts of stuff	13:18
timeless_mbp	going into a loop is something that buggy code does fairly often	13:18
viliny_	timeless_mbp: i don't really see it as a potential threat that a bunch of n900 would start ddossing 911	13:18
timeless_mbp	the fact that 911 is special cased means that one doesn't need to have code that intentionally tries 'dial 9', 'dial 1', 'dial 1'	13:19
KnightStalker	timeless_mbp:well actually in the memory section of settings it says I have about 1 gig for applications	13:19
KnightStalker	whats that then?	13:19
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timeless_mbp	it can accidentally point to the 'dial_emergency_number()' function	13:19
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SpeedEvil	KnightStalker: that's irrelevant	13:19
timeless_mbp	KnightStalker: nokia ui designers being idiots	13:19
timeless_mbp	please ignore them for now	13:19
KnightStalker	lol	13:19
viliny_	saying idiot more than the smurfs say smurf :)	13:20
timeless_mbp	there are 4 file systems in the n900	13:20
timeless_mbp	rootfs [OS core]	13:20
timeless_mbp	app overflow [that thing]	13:20
timeless_mbp	visible home	13:20
timeless_mbp	mmc card	13:20
timeless_mbp	the ui only tells you about the last 3	13:21
KnightStalker	MyDocs = visible home?	13:21
timeless_mbp	yes	13:21
KnightStalker	Got it ;p	13:21
KnightStalker	after diabling repos = 93% @ rootfs	13:21
timeless_mbp	now uninstall some stuff :)	13:21
KnightStalker	what applications consume more rootfs?	13:21
SpeedEvil	tempfs!	13:21
timeless_mbp	there's an app for that :)	13:21
timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: that isn't visible in the ui we're talking about	13:21
KnightStalker	the name? :D	13:21
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timeless_mbp	KnightStalker: shrug	13:21
KnightStalker	lol	13:22
SpeedEvil	KnightStalker: Install gnu-find - find / -ctime -20 -size +1000k	13:22
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KnightStalker	apt-get?	13:22
timeless_mbp	if you don't have rootsh installed, you'd need to install that first..	13:22
SpeedEvil	KnightStalker: that will find all files changed under 20 days ago, of over 1000k	13:22
timeless_mbp	(f you want to use apt-get)	13:22
timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: does that span file systems?	13:22
* timeless_mbp was never very good w/ using 'find'		13:23
SpeedEvil	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/findutils-gnu/4.4.2-1maemo4/	13:23
SpeedEvil	oops	13:23
SpeedEvil	yes - you need to find / -mount -ctime...	13:23
SpeedEvil	sorry - not fully woken up yet.	13:23
KnightStalker	and one very very very annoying thing is that my mobile says something is missing when actually apt-get says its alright...	13:23
KnightStalker	I hate that	13:23
timeless_mbp	?	13:23
SpeedEvil	there are probably better ways to find large packages	13:24
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noobmonk3y	frals, git sorted git core installed	13:24
SpeedEvil	Also - if you find a package installing large amounts on / (where large >100k) - then mail the author, enter it in bugtracker, comment on tmo, or tattoo it on your forehead.	13:24
Zeddeh	why do you get kicked for asking about 1.2.. im just confused as the new Nokia Qt SDK requires you have PR 1.2 installed, how should i deploy my applications to the device?	13:24
thresh	you dont.	13:25
timeless_mbp	Zeddeh: this irc channel has publicly available logs	13:25
timeless_mbp	they're linked from the channel topic	13:25
timeless_mbp	you could read them	13:25
timeless_mbp	they're even searchable	13:26
timeless_mbp	you might consider reading some of them as a good investment	13:26
noobmonk3y	meh	13:26
KnightStalker	lol	13:26
Tuukka	reading random spam = good investment?	13:26
frals	noobmonk3y: and now go read git for dummies :D	13:26
* noobmonk3y cries :(		13:27
KnightStalker	frals,noobmonk3y seems to be a noob but not a dummy :P	13:27
noobmonk3y	I r noob - tis true.....	13:27
* noobmonk3y is reading http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/gittutorial.html and crying some more		13:28
KnightStalker	Hmm,have someone tried flashing his n900 to meego? => http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_native_install_on_N900	13:28
timeless_mbp	noobmonk3y: personally, i'm quite happy using mercurial instead of git :)	13:29
Tuukka	It's just a command line, ain't it?	13:29
noobmonk3y	:\|	13:29
Zeddeh	Has anyone gotten qt mobility working on maemo? :>	13:29
KnightStalker	I didn't :P	13:30
lpotter	yup	13:30
Zeddeh	messaging aswell?	13:30
lpotter	didnt try, but i believe the beta is a bit broken for messaging	13:30
Zeddeh	imo the ability to send SMS is pretty damn important	13:30
Zeddeh	and they fail at that.	13:30
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noobmonk3y	i think my problem is i dont understand how git helps	13:31
noobmonk3y	it just seems a bit complicated	13:31
timeless_mbp	noobmonk3y: helps do what?	13:31
noobmonk3y	exactly ;)	13:31
timeless_mbp	what problems do you have?	13:31
noobmonk3y	git lol	13:31
Zeddeh	lpotter, have you stumbled upon any forum discussion regarding the matter? I would really like to find people trying to fix the issue :p	13:31
timeless_mbp	git/hg let you work with other people asynchronously	13:31
noobmonk3y	frals asked me to create a git so he could help me with healthcheck	13:31
frals	noobmonk3y: its version control - are you using any other thing to keep track of code changes currently?	13:31
noobmonk3y	a text file and my head	13:32
timeless_mbp	if you've finished step 1	13:32
timeless_mbp	and are going to work on step 2	13:32
timeless_mbp	and someone wants to review/fix your step 1	13:32
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timeless_mbp	and you then finish step 2	13:32
timeless_mbp	and they then finish changing your step 1	13:32
timeless_mbp	you now have things which are inconsistent	13:32
timeless_mbp	the question is how to deal w/ that	13:32
noobmonk3y	:\|	13:32
lpotter	Zeddeh: might be something on forum nokia	13:32
Zeddeh	nope	13:32
Zeddeh	not under qt atleast	13:33
timeless_mbp	noobmonk3y: git/hg make dealing w/ that much easier	13:33
noobmonk3y	ahhh ok, kinda get that	13:33
noobmonk3y	used svn in windows before, that kinda made sense	13:33
noobmonk3y	its probably console v gui	13:33
noobmonk3y	i'm a visual person :P hehe	13:33
timeless_mbp	although you should really have step 01…10 and 11…20 and someone else should have their own 11...20	13:33
timeless_mbp	because having only 3 changes where two of them are large / conflicting is always painful	13:34
timeless_mbp	broken up into smaller steps, it's much more managable	13:34
Zeddeh	What i was thinking is why not build the messaging part myself, i just dont know which tool to use in the nokia qt sdk	13:34
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timeless_mbp	noobmonk3y: for hg, there's hgtk	13:34
noobmonk3y	hg?	13:34
timeless_mbp	i presume there's something similar for git	13:34
timeless_mbp	hg=mercurial	13:34
noobmonk3y	oh ok	13:34
timeless_mbp	it's a competing vcs	13:35
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frals	noobmonk3y: theres gui for windows for git afaik	13:35
timeless_mbp	well, dvcs	13:35
frals	tortoisegit and smth else as well	13:35
Zeddeh	in my symbian sdk i do this	13:35
Zeddeh	C:\WINDOWS\system32\cmd.exe /K C:\Qt\symbian\bin\qtenv.bat	13:35
Zeddeh	i cant find anything similar for the sdk :p	13:36
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timeless_mbp	Zeddy: i think there's a #maemo-qt or #qt-maemo or something	13:37
timeless_mbp	in general, i'd assume they're in a better position to offer help	13:37
Zeddy	yeah im there aswell	13:37
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mece	hey is there a recommended structure on opt? should the app data go under /opt/maemo/<appname> or /opt/<appname> or what?	13:38
Zeddy	that channel is just rather dead when it comes to questions and answers :p	13:38
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SpeedEvil	mece: ls -l /opt	13:39
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SpeedEvil	mece: Currently it seems rather random	13:39
mece	SpeedEvil, I have all sorts.	13:39
mece	SpeedEvil, it should be decided upon.	13:39
SpeedEvil	Sure	13:39
mece	hmm	13:39
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timeless_mbp	mece: fwiw, i found a solution that almost worked	13:40
timeless_mbp	and then i hit a road block	13:40
SpeedEvil	we seem to have /opt/appname/ /opt/producer/appname attempt /opt/attemptatuniqueid/appname/...	13:40
timeless_mbp	so i'm now just going to install both packages	13:40
RichardP	timeless_mbp: what do you mean by london?	13:40
timeless_mbp	and have runtime code figure it out	13:40
SpeedEvil	mece: I would suggest something like java	13:40
mece	timeless_mbp, lol	13:40
mece	SpeedEvil, how does java do it?	13:40
SpeedEvil	mece: /opt/mece.com/yourapp	13:40
mece	SpeedEvil, hmm..	13:40
SpeedEvil	mece: where the middle bit is a website you control	13:41
mece	SpeedEvil, I don't have one. Well I do but there's not much info there.	13:41
crashanddie	anyone know of any jobs in Europe? More specifically, I'm a security consultant by trade, but have a heavy background in programming. I'd be interested in a tools developer position, or an R&D position where POCs are important. Bonus points if it can be remote	13:41
timeless_mbp	RichardP: http://www.google.com/search?q=carrier%20london%20appologizes	13:41
SpeedEvil	Is there a guarantee that tehre will not be two packages of the same name?	13:41
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timeless_mbp	SpeedEvil: installed at the same time? yes	13:41
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mece	SpeedEvil, should be yes. apt would scream angrily if you tried to install something else with same package name	13:42
SpeedEvil	I suppose then that makes packagename a sensible /opt/foo/	13:42
mece	SpeedEvil, I suppose. There is also the stuff that is symlinked from rootfs. I believe there is some of that under /opt/maemo/	13:43
Zeddy	i really hope meego and symbian 3 will have a working development environment	13:43
Zeddy	otherwise they will fail	13:43
timeless_mbp	Zeddy: i've setup a build env w/ symbian 3	13:43
timeless_mbp	it wasn't too painful	13:43
mece	Zeddy, QtSDK looks pretty nice too..	13:43
timeless_mbp	i mean, i only filed about a dozen bugs trying to set it up	13:44
Zeddy	yes but they never seem to get all parts working	13:44
mece	Zeddy, or was that the one you're having trouble with?	13:44
RichardP	timeless_mbp: thats got sod all to do with a bad phone or app, and everything to do with a crap provider - O2 wasnt geared up for an unlimited data plan and it showed (I had an O2 iPhone from day 1, until about a month ago when I switched to the N900, O2s data plan always sucked, even when you put the iPhone sim card into a different phone)	13:44
mece	timeless_mbp, LOL	13:44
mece	I think I'll go with /opt/appname/	13:45
timeless_mbp	RichardP: um	13:45
Zeddy	mece: well yes, that too. Im actually developing an app for s60 5th edition, but the mobility -messaging has a bug http://bugreports.qt.nokia.com/browse/QTMOBILITY-64 which makes it impossible to actually send a SMS, it just puts them in the draft folder, so now i decided to try out the Nokia QT SDK and try to deploy my app to maemo, only to find out they left out messaging completely	13:45
timeless_mbp	go read the context?	13:46
alterego	http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mobile+operator+apologizes	13:46
Zeddy	one can only imagine my frustration, the deadline would be next monday	13:46
alterego	is link enough	13:46
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timeless_mbp	RichardP: the context was getting operators to not suck	13:47
timeless_mbp	my point is that … it isn't happening	13:47
alterego	Though, that would probably be related to loads of tossers buying an iPhone and saturating the network with their fart app downloads.	13:47
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RichardP	timeless_mbp: but the context has nothing to do with your earlier point - the problem had nothing to do with an individual handset or app	13:48
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timeless_mbp	RichardP: it was a response to a local request	13:49
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Zeddeh	omfg	13:49
Zeddeh	just love it when my computer reboots in the middle of a 3 hour installation	13:49
RichardP	timeless_mbp: what?	13:49
timeless_mbp	oh brother	13:50
timeless_mbp	now i've missed lunch	13:50
* timeless_mbp blames RichardP		13:50
KnightStalker	Zeddeh: you love that?	13:50
RichardP	timeless_mbp: heh, send me the bill :) (note: i have not offered to pay it, just receive it from you)	13:50
KnightStalker	I would kick the computer	13:50
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Zeddeh	KnightStalker, so would i, only i think the rebooting is because of all the hitting	13:51
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timeless_mbp	RichardP: jpg from an n900 ok?	13:51
* timeless_mbp considers various options		13:51
Zeddeh	thats what you get when you buy a 800 euro laptop for 100 euro	13:51
RichardP	timeless_mbp: sure, jpg of a £20 note ok in return?	13:52
KnightStalker	W00t @ Zeddeh	13:52
KnightStalker	Any applications like Shazam for n900 just yet?	13:52
timeless_mbp	bah, how about you give me your address and i'll send you the bill w/ a self addressed postage paid envelope inside	13:52
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* timeless_mbp has no idea what currency RichardP was using		13:53
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RichardP	timeless_mbp: GBP was what I was using :)	13:55
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PerfDave	RichardP: everybody knows that GIFs of seven-legged spiders are the standard form of payment in e-mail!	13:58
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BCMM	heh	13:59
TigerTael	lol	13:59
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tybollt	hmnm	14:16
achipa	hm... do I need to depend on maemo-optify or is just 'echo auto > debian/optify' enough ?	14:16
alterego	Hah, poor N900 user dropping his phone down the toilet. pahahaha	14:16
alterego	gutted	14:16
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achipa	~poke X-Fade	14:19
* infobot cuts down a small tree, sneaks up behind X-Fade, pokes X-Fade repeatedly, hilarity ensues.		14:19
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KnightStalker	lol	14:19
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* KnightStalker changes the poke message of his bot to infobot's message :D		14:20
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achipa	X-Fade: did you change anything with regard to the autobuilder autooptification autoyet ? 'Cause if you haven't I have something interesting for you...	14:22
mece	hey what's the variable for user home directory in a shellscript?	14:23
Khertan	~	14:23
Khertan	:)	14:23
mece	Khertan, doh, thanks	14:24
timeless_mbp	$HOME ?	14:24
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mece	$HOME was what I was looking for.	14:24
* timeless_mbp doesn't think of ~ as a variable		14:24
mece	so how do I concatenate $HOME? I know nothing of shellscripting	14:24
alterego	tmo d\own?	14:24
frals	tmo down again ;o	14:25
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timeless_mbp	mece: $HOME/foo should work	14:25
achipa	he's dead, Jim	14:25
alterego	heh	14:25
timeless_mbp	$HOMEbar will not do what you want	14:25
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mece	It's not just you! http://talk.maemo.org looks down from here.	14:25
mece	timeless_mbp, thanks.	14:25
X-Fade	achipa: Meeting atm, will get back to you.	14:25
achipa	X-Fade: np, whenever you have time	14:25
achipa	as for the homebar, that's ${HOME}bar IIRC	14:26
timeless_mbp	http://www.downornot.com/talk.maemo.org	14:26
timeless_mbp	talk.maemo.org is down!	14:26
achipa	OMG ! You don't say ! :)	14:26
alterego	Hah	14:26
mece	will "foo >> $home/.foo/output.txt" create the .foo directory?	14:26
inz	no	14:27
mece	err$HOME	14:27
mece	ok	14:27
timeless_mbp	mece: you need to mkdir first	14:27
alterego	mece: no,	14:27
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inz	It will create the file though	14:27
alterego	(if the directory exists) ;)	14:27
inz	(given that the directory exists)	14:27
inz	damn	14:27
mece	inx, timeless_mbp, alterego, thanks, and lol :D	14:27
alterego	np	14:27
mece	inz even :P	14:27
alterego	I prefer inx, change your name! :D	14:28
inz	nevar	14:28
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mece	would this be appropriate to avoid error messages: mkdir $HOME/.foo/ > /dev/null	14:28
achipa	mece: 2> /dev/null	14:29
mece	oki.	14:29
mece	> gives everything, and 2> just errors?	14:29
achipa	mece: although mkdir -p is probably cleaner	14:29
achipa	mece: > is stdout, 2> is stderr	14:29
mece	i c.	14:30
mece	is there a way to get both?	14:30
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mgedmin	yes	14:30
achipa	mece: 2>&1	14:30
mgedmin	>/dev/null 2>&1	14:31
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mgedmin	ordering is important here	14:31
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achipa	The maemo.org - Talk database has encountered a problem.	14:32
Zeddeh	meeeeeh	14:32
SpeedEvil	Oh no!	14:32
SpeedEvil	It might all have been deleted!	14:32
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SpeedEvil	The tragedy!	14:32
pupnik_	558 nicks...	14:33
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MohammadAG_	morning	14:33
*** MohammadAG_ is now known as MohammadAG		14:33
noobmonk3y	morrrrning	14:34
lardman	morning chaps	14:34
noobmonk3y	morrrrrning	14:35
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lcuk	morning lardman MohammadAG	14:36
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timeless_mbp	2:40pm	14:37
MohammadAG	hey lcuk, lardman, noobmonk3y :)	14:37
frals	o/	14:38
pupnik_	i would like an mp3 player that auto-ffwds through music and only plays spoken voices	14:39
* MohammadAG asks lcuk to show timeless_mbp the morning/night thing		14:39
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mece	what does "StartupWMClass=appname" in .desktop files do?	14:40
Termana_n810	good morning MohammadAG, lcuk, lardman, noobmonk3y, et al.	14:40
MohammadAG	why do I feel tmo is crapping out on me Sorry, the forum is unavailable for maintenance.	14:40
timeless_mbp	http://www.google.com/search?q=StartupWMClass	14:41
MohammadAG	hey Termana_n810	14:41
SpeedEvil	hey all	14:41
lcuk	MohammadAG, timeless knows all about internet time, he just likes to be picky :p	14:41
MohammadAG	lol	14:41
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lcuk	he is afterall, timeless	14:41
timeless_mbp	http://standards.freedesktop.org/desktop-entry-spec/desktop-entry-spec-latest.html	14:41
MohammadAG	Good point lmao	14:41
timeless_mbp	If specified, it is known that the application will map at least one window with the given string as its WM class or WM name hint (see the Startup Notification Protocol Specification for more details).	14:41
tybollt	hmm	14:43
* timeless_mbp wonders how to file bugs about freedesktop.org standards		14:43
tybollt	how do I mark a range of photos so that I can mail them or whatever	14:43
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mece	hmm ok I donä't know how to "map at least one window with the given string as its WM class" so I'll just skip that one.	14:43
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tybollt	Oh and the maps app in the n900 - what a piece of shit	14:44
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achipa	are we acting as a tmo replacement now ? :)	14:44
mece	LOL	14:44
tybollt	I actually tried to use it and man was it ever worthless :)	14:45
MohammadAG	Will Qt get us ovi maps 5.0?	14:45
achipa	is ovi maps 5 written in Qt ?	14:46
mece	is there an ovi maps 5?	14:46
achipa	s/in/with/	14:46
infobot	achipa meant: is ovi maps 5 written with Qt ?	14:46
MohammadAG	meh,you missed the joke	14:47
mece	why the fuck does that s/there/tharr thing ever work for me?	14:47
mece	MohammadAG, aaahaha. Yep.	14:47
mece	err.. s/ever/never	14:47
mece	lol	14:47
mece	I really need it.	14:47
mece	s/need/want	14:47
MohammadAG	mece, you don't know the sintax	14:47
mece	apparently not.	14:48
MohammadAG	s/sintax/syntax/	14:48
infobot	MohammadAG meant: mece, you don't know the syntax	14:48
mece	damn	14:48
MohammadAG	:)	14:48
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MohammadAG	last /	14:48
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mece	s/damn/doh/	14:48
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infobot	mece meant: doh	14:48
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mece	ahaa	14:48
mece	s/ahaa/I'mAnIdiot	14:48
mece	lol	14:48
zash	mece: trailing /	14:48
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MikeK	Hi, I'm getting this error: "/scratchbox/tools/bin/misc_runner: /targets/links/scratchbox.config: No such file or directory" after I upgraded to Ubuntu 10.04 lucid, when I try to build Fennec - any one else seen this?	14:48
zash	s/: /: you need a /	14:48
mece	s/lol/mece is an idiot/	14:48
infobot	zash meant: mece: you need a trailing /	14:48
infobot	mece meant: mece is an idiot	14:48
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mece	thanks :)	14:49
lardman	hi noobmonk3y, MohammadAG, lcuk	14:49
* lardman battles with online expense claim system		14:49
noobmonk3y	well that killed the conversation!	14:49
sECuRE	s/foo/bar	14:49
sECuRE	s/foo\/bar/baz/	14:49
sECuRE	tses!	14:49
mece	hehe	14:49
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mece	noobmonk3y, how does your dependencies for healtcheck work on pr1.1.1 when it's qt?	14:53
noobmonk3y	whatcha mean?	14:54
MohammadAG	4.5.2 maybe	14:54
mece	hmm..	14:54
mece	well ok.. but it's pyqt	14:54
mece	does pyqt depend on 4.5.2?	14:54
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noobmonk3y	python2.5, python2.5-qt4-gui, python2.5-qt4-core, python-dbus, python2.5-gtk2, python-location, gstreamer-tools, pulseaudio-utils, python-hildon, pyside-qt4-core, pyside-qt4-gui	14:54
noobmonk3y	those are my dependencies lol	14:54
mece	ok, does pyside-qt4-core work on pr1.1.1?	14:55
noobmonk3y	ahhh dunno :P	14:55
mece	I had a lot of trouble to get that installed on my device.	14:55
noobmonk3y	that i added yesterday so not sure	14:55
Khertan	i ve version 0.2.3 installed	14:55
mece	righty-o.	14:55
mece	Khertan, yeah, but if you have no version installed, how will hammy react?	14:55
Khertan	hum ... force the install from older version with apt	14:56
Khertan	i think	14:56
Khertan	apt-get install pyside-qt4-core=0.2.3	14:56
Khertan	or something like that	14:56
Khertan	The following packages have been kept back:	14:57
Khertan	gstreamer0.10-plugins-base-subtitles gstreamer0.10-plugins-good-extra gtranslate mafw-gst-subtitles-renderer pyside-qt4 pyside-qt4-core pyside-qt4-gui	14:57
Khertan	pyside-qt4-opengl python2.5-qt4 python2.5-qt4-common python2.5-qt4-core python2.5-qt4-dbus python2.5-qt4-gl python2.5-qt4-gui python2.5-qt4-network	14:57
Khertan	python2.5-qt4-phonon python2.5-qt4-script python2.5-qt4-sql python2.5-qt4-svg python2.5-qt4-test python2.5-qt4-webkit python2.5-qt4-xml python2.5-qt4-xmlpatterns	14:57
Khertan	0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 23 not upgraded.	14:57
Khertan	ouch	14:57
Khertan	sorry	14:57
Khertan	:)	14:57
Khertan	cannot be upgraded due to depandancies issue	14:57
mece	Khertan, but ok, can you make it depend on an older version then?	14:57
mece	Khertan, to avoid the problem until pr1.2 appears	14:57
achipa	mece: pyside has no qt4.5 version	14:58
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mece	achipa, righty-o.	14:58
mece	achipa, there is the problem then.	14:58
mece	I'll test this with pyqt4 then.	14:59
Khertan	mece, i fact i'm surely not the better to ask ... as my install was a bit mess	14:59
Khertan	and many think isn't working	14:59
Khertan	like QSyntaxHilight	14:59
Khertan	i'm doing initial dev with PyQt4 currently	14:59
Khertan	and as PySide should be api compatible you will have just the import statement to change	15:00
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MAK_	can i back to pr 1.1 or not plz	15:00
achipa	it will be still a while until that import statement is worth changing	15:00
mece	MAK_, If you ask that, I'm guessing not.	15:01
achipa	(in fact, things being the way they are, I'd say it's quite pointless to switch before Harmattan)	15:01
MAK_	mece_: so wehn the offical pr 1.2 relased can i upgrade to it normally	15:01
mece	MAK_, I'd think so. I'm guessing you have the leaked firmware?	15:02
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SpeedEvil	MAK_: you can go back, but your phone will not work	15:03
SpeedEvil	(to 1.1)	15:03
MAK_	mece_: because the radio verison upgraded ???	15:03
mece	SpeedEvil, I'd classify that as "no, you can't" ;)	15:03
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SpeedEvil	mece: If it just stopped phone calls, I pretty much wouldn't care.	15:03
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SpeedEvil	mece: lack of data would be a dealbreaker though	15:04
mece	SpeedEvil, well you're not normal now are you? ;)	15:04
mece	SpeedEvil, Well 3g data would not work either.	15:04
MAK_	thnx all	15:04
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noobmonk3y	oh ffs @Frals :P - phone keeps kicking me off wireless and going over to mms lol	15:05
alterego	Happy star wars day btw	15:06
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lcuk	may the 4th be with you!	15:06
lcuk	noobmonk3y, try changing the mode	15:06
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noobmonk3y	hehehehe	15:07
noobmonk3y	havnt even got fmms working yet lol	15:07
noobmonk3y	well yet - as off this week since reinstall	15:07
lcuk	yet you are getting many mmss	15:07
noobmonk3y	i got 1 a few weeks ago :D	15:07
lcuk	my tongue is still numb	15:08
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lcuk	but i'd have it numbed again in a heartbeat	15:08
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noobmonk3y	:P	15:08
Dharmendra	How to reflash the N900 with production image	15:09
mece	hmm.. no Qt.WA_Maemo5StackedWindow in qt4.5?	15:09
Khertan	mece, nope	15:09
Khertan	qt4.6	15:09
alterego	mece: There's not realy any mobility stuff in 4.5 no maemo specific stuff, it's all in 4.6	15:09
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Khertan	welcome in the wonderfull world of qt	15:09
Khertan	:)	15:09
mece	noobmonk3y, halp!	15:10
alterego	Khertan: you prefer Hildon? :P	15:10
Khertan	alterego, yes	15:10
Khertan	:)	15:10
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alterego	Heh	15:10
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* Khertan is trying for the 6th time to write the ubuntu iso to an usb key		15:11
mece	fakkingfrakketycrud!	15:11
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alterego	Khertan: worked first time for me ...	15:11
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mece	ok, so it's not possible to get a qt4.6 app to extras, I'm guessing.	15:12
mece	currently.	15:12
* Khertan is tired by wifi problem and no update		15:12
RichardP	cant wait until meego is usable :)	15:12
Khertan	alterego, most of the time too :)	15:12
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achipa	mece: you're guessing rught	15:13
noobmonk3y	lol lcuk - that msg killed my xchat	15:13
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mece	noobmonk3y, is it possible to do portrait mode and stacked windows in qt4.5, if yes then how?	15:14
noobmonk3y	mece, not in qt	15:14
Khertan	stacked window can be done by passing the main window as parent	15:14
noobmonk3y	5.6 you can i think	15:14
noobmonk3y	yeah	15:14
noobmonk3y	but wont work in newer qt version :P	15:14
Khertan	but ll not work in qt4.5	15:15
Khertan	but ll not work in qt4.6	15:15
mece	Khertan, so simply create a new QMainWindow with old window as parent.	15:15
Khertan	retro compatibility what ? :)	15:15
Khertan	mece, exactly ... but work only for qt4.5 not 4.6	15:15
Khertan	:)	15:15
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noobmonk3y	win = HelloWindow(MainWindow)	15:16
noobmonk3y	win.setAttribute(Qt.WA_Maemo5StackedWindow)	15:16
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noobmonk3y	ignore the second line in 4.5	15:16
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Khertan	this little example annoy me so much that i ll just wait until 4.6 to continue my qt dev :)	15:16
noobmonk3y	lol khertan	15:16
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Khertan	i fear that there is many example like this	15:16
Khertan	and when you start learning a new framework it s didn't help you	15:17
Khertan	like the QSyntaxHilght working in pyqt4 not in pyside	15:17
Khertan	and seems broken too on qt4.6	15:17
Khertan	:)	15:17
alterego	Noice	15:17
noobmonk3y	i needed pyside to fix stackable windows as 4.5 wasnt playing ball	15:18
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achipa	? it does work via the parenting game	15:18
Khertan	achipa, for qt4.5 only	15:18
Khertan	:)	15:18
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Dharmendra	can anybody tell me how to flash N900	15:19
Khertan	Dharmendra, with a firmware	15:19
Khertan	look at maemo wiki	15:19
Dharmendra	Link plz ?	15:19
achipa	Khertan: no, I'm not talking about that, but pyside vs pyqt	15:19
Khertan	ah sorry	15:19
Khertan	hum ... i don't think how it s really works ... but from what i understand pyside should have same api than pyqt and same result	15:20
Khertan	no the case actually :)	15:20
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Khertan	but still beta too	15:20
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Khertan	so nothing to whine	15:20
Khertan	just as i'm learning qt it s a bit annoying	15:20
Dharmendra	Khertan, can you plz share me the wiki link ?	15:20
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mece	Dharmendra, http://wiki.maemo.org/Flashing	15:21
Dharmendra	Thx	15:21
achipa	pyqt is less beta :) but obviously if something is off in qt, then it can megically fix that	15:21
achipa	with pyside it's a double-beta	15:21
achipa	:)	15:21
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Khertan	http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware	15:21
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achipa	s/can/cannot/	15:23
Khertan	no hi ... no bye ... nice	15:23
Khertan	/ignore Dharmendra	15:23
Khertan	grr	15:23
* tybollt is guessing the people in here are effectively telling people how to get crax0red/leax0red firmwarew on to an N900 =)		15:23
Khertan	it s seems	15:24
Khertan	but what ... it ll not ask twice	15:24
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tybollt	so yes achipa - it seems you folks ARE replacing TMO	15:24
Khertan	the next time after bought an replacement n900 device :)	15:24
* MohammadAG kicks tybollt		15:24
tybollt	go right ahead buddy =)	15:24
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MohammadAG	that can't be done on tmo :P	15:24
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achipa	wait, nobody ranted about MMS yet...	15:25
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tybollt	achipa: no fun, there _is_ mms now :(	15:25
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achipa	flash 10.1 ?	15:25
tybollt	bastard frals - taking away our reasons to whinge :-(	15:25
pupnik	yeah exactly. providing solutions. what is he thinking.. :)	15:26
MohammadAG	slap him with a trout!	15:27
achipa	pfft, next you're going to tell me somebody did a portrait SMS app... oh, wait...	15:27
alterego	Heh	15:28
alterego	I'm liking the look of that app actually.	15:28
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yabba	yeah, now you can write sms again while you drive... except I think it still illegal to do so	15:32
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alterego	I tell you what though, the Qt SDK simulator is awful ..	15:34
alterego	I don't like the way the menubar is not in the UI	15:34
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alterego	I'm guessing it's just a window, which hasa themed frame as the actual device ..	15:35
alterego	Doesn't even theme it :(	15:35
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timeless_mbp	yabba: that's a regional issue	15:35
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asj	alterego: so you're saying engadget is wrong?	15:36
alterego	asj: wrong about what?	15:37
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asj	alterego: the Qt SDK is the most adorable thing they've seen out of Nokia	15:37
asj	err, SDK simulator	15:38
alterego	Really ...	15:38
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asj	ayup	15:38
asj	anyways, bed time, work starts in < 10 hour, wtf	15:39
alterego	Well, I think it's pretty awful, though, I could be doing something wrong ..	15:39
lcuk	alterego, is it better than the old one?	15:40
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mece	oh well. I'll just go for pyside and qt4.6.2 and go for extras once pr1.2 is out.	15:41
alterego	Do you mean better than scratchbox? Erm, maybe it will be, but I think scratchbox is far better, though there is obviously a great deal of difference between a simulator and an emulator in this case.	15:41
alterego	mece: good choice ;)	15:41
Khertan	To qt developpers ... what is the best way to implement an "pseudo" auto indentation on a QTextEdit, currently i ve subclass it and test if it s a return key in the keyPressEvent but it s a bit slow	15:42
Khertan	any idea ?	15:42
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maddler_	howdy	15:42
alterego	Khertan: to #qt developers. :P	15:42
Khertan	alterego, oh yes ... true	15:42
Khertan	:)	15:42
* lcuk got redirected from #qt to #qt-creator for a question last night		15:43
alterego	Not sure why your method is slow though, seems a pretty logical implementation choice.;	15:43
lcuk	but then got a mirrored answer in both :)	15:43
alterego	Heh	15:43
Khertan	:)	15:43
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achipa	mece: just out of curiousity, what works for you better in pyside under 4.6 than in pyqt ?	15:45
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alterego	The LGPL? :D	15:47
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achipa	alterego: GPL vs GPL an obstacle for Extras ?	15:49
achipa	GPL vs LGPL	15:50
anssias	i couldnt find repo for erminig-ng. is there one?	15:50
alterego	I wasn't being serious achipa	15:50
alterego	I would hope PySide is better supported and more heavily developed.	15:50
alterego	That would be my reasoning.	15:50
Khertan	currently i got a maemo theme in a qtextview with pyside (rounded corner) and not with pyqt	15:51
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achipa	alterego: I wouldn't be surprised seeing PyQt switch to LGPL when PySide gets anywhere near a completed state	15:52
achipa	alterego: at which point it's a lot ado about nothing	15:52
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achipa	and Maemo missed a year's worth of python/qt apps... but I digress	15:53
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achipa	the bottom line is that today, paradoxical as that might sound, PyQt has better support for Maemo 5 than PySide does	15:54
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Khertan	achipa, better support isn't exactly what i say ... as not real maemo theme ... but true, works better	15:55
Khertan	:)	15:55
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achipa	Khertan: pyside doesn't even support the Maemo5 classes yet under shiboken	15:56
Khertan	achipa, i didn't look so far yet in qt ... just the basics so i didn't see that :)	15:57
achipa	hence my surprise of mece's enthusiasm of going for Extras with PySide...	15:57
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the_lord	Hi!	15:59
the_lord	I want to install about 3-4 apps that need libqt4 or something of qt4	16:00
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the_lord	how can I install those deps?	16:02
andre__	the_lord, exactly define "something" first	16:02
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the_lord	andre__, libqt4*	16:02
the_lord	python-qt4*	16:02
andre__	and now please drop the * and be exact	16:03
the_lord	let me search for the deps of one of them	16:03
Khertan	andre__, the answer is the same for all python-qt4* depandancies	16:04
Khertan	wait pr1.2, isn't it ?	16:04
andre__	most probably yes	16:04
the_lord	Khertan, but I want them now :P	16:04
Khertan	ah hum maybe force install of old version	16:04
andre__	but can also be "don't use 4.5"	16:04
Po0ky	.w 4	16:04
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Mace_N900	hm	16:05
Mace_N900	why does the gps seem to take forever to get a lock?	16:05
the_lord	espeakcaller, needs libqt4-core and libqtgui	16:05
Mace_N900	it screws up my cam geotagging	16:06
tybollt	Mace_N900: do you allow it to connect to the network?	16:06
MohammadAG	the_lord, they're in 1.2	16:06
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Mace_N900	is there a specific option for that?	16:06
the_lord	Mace_N900, maybe you are not using triangulation via your provider	16:06
MohammadAG	Mace_N900, it takes 5 seconds here	16:06
lardman	I must say I wasn't impressed with Map's update time when I was walking around Bristol, with data, the other day	16:07
the_lord	MohammadAG, I know, but I don't know when pr1.2 will come	16:07
lardman	but that's probably Map being crap rather than the AGPS	16:07
andre__	see subject of channel	16:07
Mace_N900	i have network positioning on	16:07
the_lord	andre__, I'm not asking for it	16:07
Mace_N900	is there some other server i should be using for tmobile?	16:07
Khertan	probably ...	16:08
Mace_N900	right now it is set to the default supl.nokia.com	16:08
lardman	Mace_N900: using the supl.nokia.com (iirc) one?	16:08
MohammadAG	the_lord, tbh no@one knows	16:08
andre__	the_lord, nobody knows a date. that's all.	16:08
Khertan	i know that sfr block other server and force user to use the sfr one	16:08
Mace_N900	lardman, yes	16:08
lardman	Khertan: oh right	16:09
MohammadAG	s/@/\	16:09
Mace_N900	it is set to that by default	16:09
achipa	the_lord: disable extras-devel, install pyqt, and you're good to go	16:09
tybollt	uhm what	16:09
lardman	Mace_N900: I use that with Vodafone, should work fine I guess	16:09
the_lord	MohammadAG, I know, but there's got to be a way to install them	16:09
Mace_N900	hm	16:09
MohammadAG	libqt4-maemo5-*	16:09
Khertan	vodafone is sfr	16:09
tybollt	do network operators block suppl.nokia.com?	16:09
Mace_N900	maybe it needs to download the sat data	16:09
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the_lord	achipa, I use some apps from devel	16:09
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Mace_N900	i doubt it	16:09
andre__	tybollt, in which country and which operator?	16:09
lardman	Khertan: works for me afaict in the UK	16:09
timeless_mbp	tybollt: i've heard rumors that some do	16:09
Mace_N900	hm	16:10
tybollt	timeless_mbp: that's ... wow :-\|	16:10
Mace_N900	i wonder if tmob does	16:10
alterego	vodafone block me getting map images for the location widget	16:10
achipa	the_lord: it doesn't matter - just don't install the pyqt from extras-devel as that one is for PR1.2	16:10
tybollt	timeless_mbp: how bloody anal can they get? :S	16:10
timeless_mbp	tybollt: not internally	16:10
Khertan	lardman, ah... maybe this are specifics for this stupid french people	16:10
alterego	Which is annoying, but AGPS works fine for me through voda	16:10
achipa	the_lord: you can re-enable it after isntalling	16:10
timeless_mbp	from memory it was a maemo owner who indicated it	16:10
lardman	Khertan: perhaps, if so sorry to hear that	16:10
Mace_N900	hm	16:10
Mace_N900	does the phone use the internet for sat data?	16:11
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Khertan	operator : sfr , country : france ...	16:11
lardman	Mace_N900: for assistance to improve the lock speed, yes it can	16:11
Mace_N900	instead of downloading it from the 300bps sat	16:11
lardman	and indeed it needs to to get a decent lock speed	16:11
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Mace_N900	lardman, yeah	16:11
Mace_N900	thats what i mean	16:11
Khertan	contract : unlimited internet (restricted to http, https and 500Mb by month)	16:11
lardman	yep	16:11
Mace_N900	hm	16:11
tybollt	timeless_mbp: I meant internally	16:11
Mace_N900	does this geotagging do it by default?	16:12
Mace_N900	or the built in stuff?	16:12
Mace_N900	i still havent locked yet	16:12
Khertan	but we can use the sfr server which seems working too with n900 ...	16:12
the_lord	achipa, how do I install a old version of a package using apt-get ?	16:12
lardman	Mace_N900: everything uses the liblocation library, so they will all use assistance to get a lock	16:12
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Mace_N900	hm	16:12
the_lord	even better, how do I know the available versions?	16:12
Mace_N900	ok then. weird	16:12
Mace_N900	well. let me stick it on a roof or something	16:13
lardman	Mace_N900: but the repeat interval can be set by each app individually iirc	16:13
achipa	the_lord: apt-get install package=oldversionnumber	16:13
Mace_N900	hm	16:13
lardman	so if it fails it needn't try again immediately... I think	16:13
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Mace_N900	i see	16:13
achipa	the_lord: but that will probably not work because of dependencies	16:13
Mace_N900	ok. i will figure it out	16:13
Mace_N900	bacause my pics dont have geotagging on them	16:14
achipa	the_lord: really, your best bet is to install without extras-devel, I'm not saying that for kicks	16:14
lardman	Mace_N900: that can be disabled in the app settings	16:14
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mtnbkr	anyon else notice that alarms on the N900 work even if it is OFF. It 'wakes' and sounds the alarm clock... Nice feature, but a little concerning for us tinfoil hat wearers :)	16:14
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achipa	mtnbkr: it's called RTC, and is in every computer and phone since like, at least 20 years ago	16:15
lardman	achipa: unless you have a 770 where it rolls over every 60min or so hey? ;)	16:15
alterego	More than 20 years ago :)	16:15
Mace_N900	ah well.. ok	16:15
lardman	(or something like that anyway)	16:15
alterego	More like 25 years ago	16:16
Mace_N900	thanks	16:16
achipa	lardman: details ! :D	16:16
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lardman	achipa: :)	16:16
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achipa	25, 25 , do I hear a 30 ?	16:16
alterego	:)	16:16
alterego	30!	16:16
alterego	Just kidding :D	16:16
TigerTael	mtnbkr, that's what I love most about it!	16:17
achipa	hey, I still recall the RTC being an upgrade for Amiga users !	16:17
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alterego	I remember my dad hacking the RTC on an Acorn A3000 to switch a relay to turn the A3000 on and it loaded a program off of a floppy which downloaded all the share prices from a teletext decoder.	16:19
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alterego	To this day that machine is still running ..	16:19
alterego	He's probably got about 15 years of stock info.	16:19
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tybollt	alecrim: what exchange?	16:23
tybollt	s/alecrim/alterego/	16:24
infobot	tybollt meant: alterego: what exchange?	16:24
pupnik	neat -- someone is running gimp thru autobuilder	16:25
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the_lord	achipa, excellent, I disabled devel, but the apps I want are there :P	16:28
the_lord	I guess I'm screwed til pr 1.2	16:29
tybollt	pupnik: I'd rather have a paint application :-\|	16:29
achipa	the_lord: which apps exactly are we talking about here ?	16:30
the_lord	espeakcaller, for instance	16:30
the_lord	koffice is another one	16:30
achipa	okay, koffice is unrelated to pyqt, you need pr1.2 for that one	16:31
achipa	but for espeakcaller, do what I said	16:31
achipa	disable extras-devel	16:31
achipa	install pyqt	16:31
achipa	enable extras-devel	16:31
alterego	tybollt: FTSE	16:31
alterego	Probably more, I don't know off hand.	16:31
achipa	install whatever you need	16:31
achipa	...	16:31
achipa	profit	16:31
achipa	etc etc	16:31
the_lord	achipa, espeakcaller is _in_ devel	16:32
achipa	let me be more specific	16:32
achipa	1. disable extras-devel	16:32
achipa	2. install pyqt	16:32
achipa	3. enable extras-devel	16:32
achipa	4. install espeakcaller	16:32
achipa	done	16:33
the_lord	achipa, hmm, let me try that	16:34
achipa	the point is just that you don't want espeakcaller to auto-install the newest pyqt in extras-devel	16:34
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the_lord	why the catalog list in the app manager takes so long to populate>	16:37
the_lord	?	16:37
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Khertan	because there is also old lib in extras-devel	16:38
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zomg	I'm trying to compile the maemobrowser example from Qt 4.6 to run on my N900, but I keep getting a symbol lookup error for QAbstractKineticScroller	16:44
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zomg	What exactly could be the problem here? It runs fine in scratchbox	16:44
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pupnik	plenty of things to do for mypaint tybollt	16:45
achipa	zomg: and what version of Qt do you have on your device ?	16:45
the_lord	achipa, how do I know which apps are installed in / ?	16:45
zomg	achipa: I installed maesheep from extras-devel which as far as I know should install 4.6	16:45
the_lord	I have no space left on device	16:45
zomg	achipa: using apt-cache show libqt4-core says 4.5.whatever though, so I'm not quite sure if it's installed correctly	16:46
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X-Fade	achipa: So, you had an idea?	16:46
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achipa	whoa, traffic :)	16:49
achipa	X-Fade: well, a question first:	16:50
achipa	X-Fade: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/abiword/2.8.1-2/	16:51
zomg	achipa: so any ideas for my prob? I'm really just beginning with this maemo stuff so it could be some very elementary mistake on my part =)	16:52
achipa	I upped this, has debian/optify -> auto, and yet the autobuilder ignored it	16:52
X-Fade	achipa: Hmm strange.	16:53
X-Fade	Let me check the logs.	16:53
alterego	Okay, maybe I was a little hard on the simulator earlier, I might have to come up with a development strategy that uses the sim for lightweight testing, then moves to scratchbox and then moves to device.	16:53
achipa	zomg: the Qt4.6 installed with maesheep is a different package, it's not a replacement for PR1.2	16:53
alterego	That is until the sim properly matures.	16:53
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zomg	achipa: so is there any docs on how to actually make it work?	16:53
zomg	the sdk docs and whatever I can google aren't very helpful at all	16:54
achipa	zomg: the simple solution is to wait for PR1.2	16:54
zomg	Sorry but that won't do =)	16:54
zomg	Unless it's due out tomorrow	16:54
zomg	or so	16:54
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achipa	zomg: the hard way, which does work, is to downgrade your qt packages in the SDK	16:55
achipa	zomg: and use libqt4-maemo5 to build your app	16:55
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zomg	So that would work for 4.6 stuff? We are developing specifically for 4.6	16:55
achipa	zomg: yes it would work UNTIL pr1.2 (I told you, it's the hard way)	16:56
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zomg	Okay, sounds good enough =) Thanks	16:57
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achipa	np	16:57
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pablo2	Is it possible turn on /off the flash camera in n900? using gstreamer or dbus	16:59
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alterego	pablo2: do you mean turn on the flash light for the main camera?	17:03
pablo2	alterego, ys	17:04
X-Fade	achipa: Why do you use dates in the future in your changelog btw?	17:04
achipa	X-Fade: errare humanum est ? my dchg-or-whatsitcalled is broken so I resorted to manually poking it..	17:05
achipa	X-Fade: don't tell me THAT broke it ? :S	17:06
alterego	pablo2: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Flash_Torch	17:06
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X-Fade	achipa: No, that should not matter. in the builder at least.	17:07
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pablo2	alterego, thanks	17:07
alterego	pablo2: https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/ggit/browse.php/?p=flashlight-appl;a=tree;f=src;h=2bad4d4db2e419afc4ec97b3082818cb746bc516;hb=HEAD	17:07
alterego	That may be of more help	17:08
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RST38h	moo all	17:09
alterego	Moo to you too RST38h	17:09
achipa	re-moo	17:09
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Termana	RST38h, baaaaa	17:11
Termana	oh sorry wrong animal	17:11
Termana	:P	17:11
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RST38h	PR1.2?!?	17:12
* RST38h hides		17:12
MohammadAG_	tis getting old	17:12
MohammadAG_	:P	17:12
alterego	Heh	17:12
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alterego	Where?!?!?!	17:13
alterego	Gawd, there goes another week :P	17:13
TigerTael	I can't wait for 1.2 to come... stop all these bloody people asking for it.	17:13
X-Fade	achipa: I have no idea why it didn't run. You can also try to add maemo-optify in your debian/rules	17:14
TigerTael	Then we can have a bit of calm before they start crying about PR1.3	17:14
cato`	we need a 1.2.1	17:14
X-Fade	achipa: But otherwise ask on -developers, Marius might know.	17:14
achipa	X-Fade: same thing happened with gsfonts... though I later on realized that might have been a mistake to upload at all	17:15
Veggen_	actually, as long as the current maemo branch is a dead end, I'd much rather like Nokia to focus on getting MeeGo based os running....and to suppoer it on N900, preferably.	17:15
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achipa	X-Fade: does it make any difference that I uploaded this via scp -> drop.maemo.org (prolly not)	17:16
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X-Fade	achipa: No, it should run in the last part of the build phase.	17:18
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MohammadAG_	Stskeeps, is there any way to press enter on mer?	17:20
MohammadAG_	(specifically X Terminal on it)	17:20
Stskeeps	ctrl-m	17:21
Stskeeps	(yes, this is the 80s)	17:21
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MohammadAG_	Stskeeps, thanks!	17:27
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kroll	say hey	18:06
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an0therb0x	help please what is the default lock code for the n900 ?	18:38
SpeedEvil	21345	18:38
SpeedEvil	124345	18:38
* SpeedEvil sighs.		18:38
SpeedEvil	12345	18:38
SpeedEvil	It's in the manual.	18:38
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SpeedEvil	Which is deeply unhelpful to normal people.	18:39
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an0therb0x	SpeedEvil: 12345 did not work .. damn i am screwed now	18:40
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an0therb0x	please help how do i factory reset the n900 since i have forgotten the lock code ?	18:43
pupnik	give it back to the guy you stole it from?	18:44
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an0therb0x	pupnik: its mine ... i pressed the power button and selected "secure device" now i can't get back in	18:44
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pupnik	:/ maybe someone knows	18:45
alterego	an0therb0x: did you set the lock code? Or is it still default?	18:45
javispedro	that means you put in a code	18:45
javispedro	if it were the default it would have asked to change it the first time you press secure device.	18:45
alterego	In which case, have you tried the common boring codes like 1 2 3 4 5	18:46
an0therb0x	yeah i have only one code which is what i use whenever i power cycle	18:46
an0therb0x	but that code no longer works	18:46
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javispedro	that probably is the sim's pin.	18:47
alterego	an0therb0x: you mean the sim lock?	18:47
alterego	The lock code is 5 digits usually ..	18:47
alterego	Have you tried adding adigit like 0 to the end or seotmhing you might have done?	18:47
noobmonk3y	12345 is the default isnt it?	18:47
alterego	Well, that's what I use :P	18:47
alterego	I use the word "use" loosely ;)	18:48
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noobmonk3y	lol	18:48
alterego	Right, nome time, see you all on the other side ...	18:48
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an0therb0x	damn this is not cool ...12345 does not work and my "original" lock code does not work as well	18:49
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javispedro	the good news is that you should be able to get it back -- the bad news is that the only way I know requires deleting some data.	18:52
javispedro	A Nokia Care center should be able to do it also, btw.	18:53
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Stskeeps	with proof of ownership you can prolly ask them	18:55
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reggna	Is there any way for me to import ALL of my calendars from Google Calendar to my N900?	18:56
timeless_mbp	reggna: you should be happy if you manage to get some of your data from ONE of your calendars	18:57
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timeless_mbp	google sync support was not an advertised feature	18:57
reggna	Is there any improvement on this? Or is it a lost cause?	18:58
timeless_mbp	1.2 should be better than 1.1.1	18:58
timeless_mbp	but even there i wouldn't expect better than the happiness i describe above	18:58
timeless_mbp	there's a third party which offers a turnkey solution	18:58
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timeless_mbp	you could consider them	18:58
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reggna	timeless_mbp: Where can I find them or there software?	18:59
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crashanddie	their	19:01
timeless_mbp	nuevasync	19:01
timeless_mbp	they're a good group and iirc contribute to open source, but they have a business model	19:02
timeless_mbp	(so does nokia fwiw, although far be it for me to understand nokia's)	19:02
reggna	Thank you.	19:02
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timeless_mbp	note that i'm not affiliated w/ them and haven't used their software, so no warranty, but it might work	19:07
timeless_mbp	and they're certainly much more responsive than ms or nokia :/	19:07
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an0therb0x	i believe a recent package update is causing issues with the n900 lock code	19:15
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pupnik	if so, maybe someone else will report the same problem an0therb0x	19:18
javispedro	which package	19:18
C-S-B	so did anyone flash the hacked 1.2?	19:18
javispedro	feel free to point fingers cause this would be a very important topic.	19:18
noobmonk3y	lols	19:19
* javispedro has brief romance with hp tc1100		19:19
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Jaffa	Best comment of the day: "Was diablo officially discontinued by Nokia?"	19:23
Jaffa	He needs a "Fixed in Fremantle" t-shirt	19:23
pupnik	javispedro: how does the device feel? top-heavy in laptop mode?	19:24
javispedro	feels like a 800-page book, a bit heavy indeed.	19:25
javispedro	must be +1kg	19:25
konttori	C-S-B: I have ... 5 weeks ago ;)	19:25
C-S-B	you liking it?	19:25
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konttori	Well, not so much, there were some grave issues (which is why it's not released) still on that release	19:26
* javispedro giggles		19:26
konttori	Hey, I have moved now officially away from fremantle. The amount of coordination needed is slowing down and I moved to Harmattan yesterday.	19:26
konttori	The teams now know what they are working next, and my involvement is not needed anymore.	19:27
javispedro	oh, that's bad news -- I loved the way you handled it.	19:27
konttori	I am now pushing 50% of my time to something I cant tell, and the rest 50% on improving our 3rd party developer maemo API story.	19:27
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furunk3l	buibui	19:28
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microlith	"grave issues" isn't good to hear :/	19:29
konttori	On the maemo API, my immediate focus points are atm on making sure extension points have been defined (or will be), so that we are catering well enough also non-libMeegoTouch applications/extensions	19:29
konttori	microlith: always on the last days/weeks there are only grave issues left (and found).	19:30
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konttori	of it would be minor, the release would be made immediately	19:30
konttori	nobody will delay a release for a minor issue.	19:30
microlith	understandably	19:30
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konttori	and often, the grave issues are related to long period usage, which tends to mean that it will only be really found when testing is continuing longer. Or, e.g. SSU issues can sometimes only be found when enough volume of devices is used to test upgrades from weird 1.1.1 configurations (and states) to the latest and greatest.	19:31
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pupnik	konttori: those words would be well put to T.M.O. to help stop the whinging	19:32
noobmonk3y	;)	19:32
noobmonk3y	i agree	19:32
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microlith	so there's a good chance all these "early adopters" will hit these >.>	19:32
* noobmonk3y blinks		19:32
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noobmonk3y	wohooooooooo	19:34
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noobmonk3y	just 'committed' something to git - i actually still dont understand what i did, but it worked!	19:34
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andre__	noobmonk3y, "committed" or "pushed"? :-D	19:36
noobmonk3y	erm... both i have a feeling lol	19:36
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noobmonk3y	well it pushed something	19:36
andre__	heh	19:36
MohammadAG_	healthcheck off a cliff	19:36
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noobmonk3y	;)	19:36
noobmonk3y	http://gitorious.org/healthcheck/healthcheck	19:36
noobmonk3y	well it only shows a push	19:36
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noobmonk3y	so i'm going with "push" as the answer to that	19:36
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noobmonk3y	lol i scared lcuk3 off	19:37
Zeddeh	moment of truth	19:37
noobmonk3y	well the other lcuk	19:37
lcuk3	nahh noobmonk3y	19:37
noobmonk3y	:P	19:37
lcuk3	just virginity fail	19:37
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noobmonk3y	hehehe	19:37
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konttori	pupnik: I don't think anything will stop that.	19:38
noobmonk3y	konttori, i really do think it will help :D	19:39
konttori	anyway, I hope it's not long anymore. We again have a good candidate, so the release is near (if nothing goes wrong)	19:39
* noobmonk3y thinks that should be stamped on every tmo mebers login page		19:39
noobmonk3y	members*	19:40
timeless_mbp	konttori: fwiw, −8 was ok in my book	19:40
timeless_mbp	-10 sucked	19:40
noobmonk3y	lol	19:40
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timeless_mbp	konttori: that's ignoring the fact that someone broke the sip stack	19:40
timeless_mbp	so when i make calls, it still rings after the call connects :(	19:40
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* timeless_mbp hasn't gotten around to filing that		19:41
* lcuk slaps timeless_mbp		19:41
* noobmonk3y laughs		19:41
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noobmonk3y	quite a funny bug :P	19:41
timeless_mbp	lcuk: well, if they have a candidate, surely people will hear for themselves soon enough :)	19:41
* lcuk hasnt noticed it		19:41
noobmonk3y	so timeless is the one lengthening the wait.... and therefore allowing the tmo ranters to rant more? lol	19:41
lcuk	any idea which week	19:41
timeless_mbp	lcuk: how often do you call +1800555TELL using skype over GPRS?	19:42
timeless_mbp	noobmonk3y: i didn't file the bug	19:42
lcuk	i dont	19:42
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timeless_mbp	so how can you blame me for it? :)	19:42
noobmonk3y	thats what i meant timeless ;)	19:42
noobmonk3y	well, someone else will rant if that is a bug ;) - anyway	19:42
timeless_mbp	only people who file bugs really lengthen the wait	19:42
noobmonk3y	they will rant if there arn't no bugs anyway	19:42
timeless_mbp	anyway, after about half a minute, the ringer stops	19:42
noobmonk3y	are no*	19:42
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* noobmonk3y prods MohammadAG_		19:46
noobmonk3y	meh	19:46
noobmonk3y	xchat died	19:46
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timeless_mbp	hey, can someone here load about:plugins for me ?	19:47
timeless_mbp	(microb browser, 1.1.1 or older on n900)	19:47
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ShadowJK	it's empty	19:47
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timeless_mbp	thanks	19:47
ShadowJK	oh no wait, a few seconds after progress bar vanished text appeared	19:48
ShadowJK	Installed Plugins... Default Plugin	19:48
timeless_mbp	oh, it's just slow?	19:48
timeless_mbp	try loading	19:48
timeless_mbp	http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/blog/23/plugins.htm	19:48
timeless_mbp	and	19:48
timeless_mbp	http://viper.haque.net/~timeless/blog/23/plugins.html	19:48
* MohammadAG_ blames noobmonk3y's install		19:48
eikkka	hey, i'm trying to setup a facebook chat account to my conversations without any duplicate contacts constantly popping up, and i heard Jabber's the best option, but I have no idea what jabber is and how I get it to work :/	19:48
ShadowJK	timeless_mbp, yeah those load in about 4sec	19:49
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timeless_mbp	does it show the same list?	19:49
ShadowJK	No	19:49
tybollt	konttori: so ovi _suite_ is being worked on apparently, when will ovi_.com_ get some love, n900-wise?	19:50
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timeless_mbp	can you pastebin.mozilla.org the two lists?	19:50
timeless_mbp	tybollt: afaik they're unrelated groups	19:50
tybollt	timeless_mbp: someone told me even ovi.com has different groups/teams for each thing there (like calendar, contacts etc)	19:51
timeless_mbp	correct	19:51
timeless_mbp	it's an umbrella, not an integrated team :)	19:52
timeless_mbp	the only thing it has is an integrated slow updating device support list	19:52
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tybollt	timeless_mbp: anyway I'm really just trying to wrap my head around why Nokia ignores the best feature in years for the N900.	19:52
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timeless_mbp	tybollt: i'm sure there's a good dilbert cartoon for this	19:53
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pupnik	oh oh oh	19:53
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ShadowJK	ondevice about:config: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/720959 your first url: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/720960 second: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/720961	19:53
timeless_mbp	http://duncaninfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/dilbert_marketing.jpg	19:54
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pupnik	this doesn't fit but it is awesome ... http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/70000/0000/600/70675/70675.strip.gif	19:54
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lcuk	pupnik, dilbert is always awesome	19:54
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tybollt	timeless_mbp: =)	19:55
timeless_mbp	pupnik++	19:56
* ShadowJK wonders how to tell media player plugin that media player can play ogg		19:56
timeless_mbp	ShadowJK: thanks	19:56
ShadowJK	ondevice about:plugins really ends there	19:56
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timeless_mbp	http://charliealfred.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/dilbert-1.png?w=764&h=228	19:56
timeless_mbp	is an interesting one	19:56
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timeless_mbp	i know an engineer at nokia w/ personal experience w/ that one	19:56
timeless_mbp	sadly	19:56
Trizt	timeless_mbp; the last package you released yesterday did wonders, didn't kill widgets and the odd GUI problems seems to have disappeared	19:57
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timeless_mbp	Trizt: wow	19:57
timeless_mbp	Trizt: is it actually translating stuff?	19:58
timeless_mbp	because i think the last update i shipped was basically empty :(	19:58
Trizt	seems so	19:58
pupnik	hahahaha timeless_mbp	19:58
timeless_mbp	pupnik: well, one of my packages was an armel v. all conflict	19:59
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pupnik	anybody in tampere want to do dinner sometime?	20:03
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* timeless_mbp goes out for a while		20:04
Trizt	have fun	20:04
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konttori	tybollt: ovi suite is worked on, of ovi.com, I don't understand what you mean	20:11
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* konttori loves that last dilbert. It rings so true in large organizations		20:13
w00t_	hehe. most of them do.	20:13
tybollt	konttori: ovi.com is entirely not compatible with the N900 device. When will device capability be added for the N900? Actually a word from Nokia that they at all will be adding N900 support for ovi.com (whenever) would suffice...	20:14
konttori	tybollt: like what kind of issues are there (I was never managing browser, and I don't use ovi.com, so I have no clue what kind of issues you mean)	20:15
tybollt	As it stands pretty much every phone ever released (well...) by nokia can sync various content OTA w/ ovi.com, but the Nokia supposed flagship N900, can't. :-(	20:15
ShadowJK	there's "syncing" on ovi.com? I thought it was just a website	20:16
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tybollt	konttori: syncing your phonebook, your calendar, your <insert type of content here> over the air.	20:16
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* tybollt slaps sjk :)		20:16
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Trizt	tybollt; I think ovi is a windroid only thing, they seen to that less and less of it can be used by normal people	20:16
tybollt	so what - is being able to edit your calendar on the web NOT a nifty thing all-of-a-sudden?	20:17
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Trizt	tybollt; yes, it requires you to install some strange program that don't work on anything normal but on microsoft only	20:19
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ShadowJK	lol	20:19
tybollt	:P	20:20
tybollt	Trizt: no	20:20
tybollt	Trizt: you _entirely_ missed the point, so very very entirely :)	20:20
ShadowJK	I don't install programs on my xp machine, it's best that way	20:20
tybollt	Trizt: ovi.com is _entering your data in a web browser of your choice_ and then syncing with your mobile - has N O T H I N G to do, nothing what-so-ever with windows.	20:21
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ShadowJK	xp has a bluetooth stack, so driver discs with bt dongles are evil. XP is perfectly able to use phones as modems over bluetooth too, so pcsuite things must be evil :D	20:21
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tybollt	I am talking about ovi.com - syncing OTA, not Ovi Suite, sigh...	20:22
tybollt	different things	20:22
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Trizt	tybollt; I noticed that they changed the flies to require that horrible software, won't take long before everything there will use the application instead	20:24
noobmonk3y	does music bought on the nokia ovi music thingy work on the n900?	20:25
tybollt	noobmonk3y: bet it won't	20:26
noobmonk3y	meh	20:26
noobmonk3y	want to get some music	20:26
tybollt	noobmonk3y: seriously, I have no idea	20:26
konttori	tybollt: I see, so synch issues. DUnno, again something I wasn't handling.	20:26
noobmonk3y	and never had an mp3 player as they make it so hard to figure out	20:26
tybollt	but buying music from nokia? jeebus	20:26
Trizt	noobmonk3y; no, DRM	20:26
* SpeedEvil still hasn't claimed his 5 free tracks.		20:26
noobmonk3y	Trizt, no idea	20:26
noobmonk3y	wish it would just tell me	20:26
Trizt	noobmonk3y; it has	20:27
noobmonk3y	oh then the n900 wont work poo :(	20:27
* Trizt nods		20:27
noobmonk3y	dont get it £8 for an albumn and i cant play it on then 900 :(	20:27
noobmonk3y	the*	20:27
noobmonk3y	is there anywhere that goves good drm free music? :D (Ata cost obviously)	20:27
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Trizt	but you an't download the songs with a normal machine either	20:27
ShadowJK	I think whether it works or doesn't work on n900 depends on where Nokia thinks you live, and if they're wrong you have no way of making them change their mind :)	20:27
* konttori is very axiously waiting for pr1.2 to go out so that extras devel will receive the wonderful qt4.7 and qt quick!		20:28
noobmonk3y	lol konttori	20:28
w00t_	konttori: you and just about everyone else I think	20:28
noobmonk3y	feed the developers beer, normally works	20:28
w00t_	:-)	20:28
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tybollt	konttori: There's something very profoundly wrong in that comming from ... you :)	20:28
noobmonk3y	right... so no-one buys music online and copies it to their device?	20:28
konttori	lol, but I'm waiting for it for entirely different reasons.	20:28
noobmonk3y	konttori, pr1.2 comes with QT porn? lol	20:29
ShadowJK	noobmonk3y, it's too damn difficult, complex and hard compared to piracy	20:29
konttori	I think that qt quick will change fundamentally the way we develop apps for both mobile and for desktop	20:29
noobmonk3y	ShadowJK, i know! and it bugs me! i want to buy and they just wont god damn let me!	20:29
* frals trouts noobmonk3y		20:29
noobmonk3y	too lazy to buy a cd and rip it, just want to download, and have it on my device!	20:29
tybollt	konttori: in what regard - care to elaboratE?	20:29
* noobmonk3y kicks frals		20:29
Trizt	noobmonk3y; my gf "bought", but she can only listen those on her phone, she is not that happy, at least it was freebies, but she will not spend any money there to get any more	20:29
noobmonk3y	~kick frals	20:29
* infobot kicks frals		20:29
* tybollt trouts noobmonk3y		20:29
noobmonk3y	oh ok....	20:30
noobmonk3y	meh that doesnt hugely bother me	20:30
noobmonk3y	thats kinda the only place i want it	20:30
noobmonk3y	rarely listen to music except when i run, and i always take the n900 with me, as i use ecoach	20:30
Trizt	noobmonk3y; by principles, i don't spend money on tings that I haven't the freedom to use as it fits me	20:30
ShadowJK	I used to try to buy one song per new music shop. You'd get on to phone and one to PC. It didn't take long before I discovered the songs worked on neither :)	20:31
tybollt	huh	20:31
* frals goes back to preparing fmms 1.0		20:31
noobmonk3y	hmmmmmmm	20:31
konttori	well, it completes the separation of the UI and logic in a very fine way, essentially creating a 3 tier architecture for UI, UI logic (javascript), and c++. Quite like how web development is done, with the difference of direct access, however, this time for full fledged application development.	20:31
noobmonk3y	it does make me chuckle that in a room of people no one knows a legal easy way lol	20:31
ShadowJK	noobmonk3y, because there isn't one	20:31
konttori	when the qml + common widgets is true, then it is indeed a very very powerful combination	20:32
noobmonk3y	:\| worrying!	20:32
Scelt	frals: which comes first? fmms 1.0 or pr 1.2?	20:32
noobmonk3y	scelt - it is the version that Trouts..... it will beat PR1.2 before PR1.2 beats it ;)	20:32
mtnbkr	noobmonk3y: I just rip my cds to flacs and do what I want with them, play them anywhere, on any of my computers or my N900 - no DRM	20:32
noobmonk3y	mtameni, too geeky, too much effort, and i own no cd's	20:32
noobmonk3y	mtnbkr,	20:33
noobmonk3y	meh wrong person	20:33
noobmonk3y	auto tab w000psie	20:33
mtnbkr	noobmonk3y: you have an N900 and ripping a CD is too geeky? ha	20:33
noobmonk3y	yup ;)	20:33
mtnbkr	lol	20:33
noobmonk3y	would rather hone my geekiness to ertain things, some things in life i like to be easy	20:33
noobmonk3y	like my women....	20:33
noobmonk3y	:P	20:33
noobmonk3y	lol	20:33
Trizt	connect a usb cd-rom to the n900	20:33
noobmonk3y	shit better get ready b4 the missus gets here	20:33
Trizt	ovi works nicely now: 500 Internal Server Error	20:34
noobmonk3y	lol	20:34
noobmonk3y	new beta?	20:34
noobmonk3y	actually the new beta one seems pretty good (ovi suite that is)	20:35
nid0	suite, store, share, maps, mail...?	20:35
Trizt	noobmonk3y; don't work on a real os and can't accept eula on game-console os	20:35
noobmonk3y	?	20:36
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nid0	noobmonk3y: he's bitching that it doesnt work on linux, and is a fanboy who cant use windows properly	20:37
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* konttori loves the humor of qml security description: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qdeclarativesecurity.html ... google probably would not set that as an example ;)		20:38
Trizt	nid0; it just make people frustrated as it don't work properly, at work we only have problems with machine that run game-console os	20:38
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nid0	find an administrator that can set them up properly?	20:39
MohammadAG_	<Trizt> ovi works nicely now: 500 Internal Server Error	20:40
Trizt	nid0; won't help, the administrator won't be able to fix bugs in the microsoft code	20:40
MohammadAG_	thumbs up Nokia, thumbs up!	20:40
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RST38h	Mohammad: Why?	20:42
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RST38h	Oh, the Ovi...	20:43
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pupnik	what is our position wrt "Flash Lite"	20:47
SpeedEvil	pupnik: we don't have it	20:48
SpeedEvil	AIUI	20:48
tybollt	what is flash lite?	20:49
konttori	pupnik: you can run flash lite apps in the browser	20:49
MohammadAG_	tybollt, flash used on symbian devices	20:50
konttori	they run just fine (and pretty much faster than 'real' flash	20:50
ShadowJK	I didn't know fullflash ran flashlite too :)	20:50
pupnik	ty konttori	20:52
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Stskeeps	wb gcobb	20:54
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konttori	pupnik: you can test also on your web browser flash lite apps.	20:55
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konttori	e.g. http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/0306dc84-25c6-4e5f-81a5-4397045b7af4/Flash_Lite_Visual_Example_v1_0_en.zip.html	20:55
konttori	then just drag swf to your browser (or open in browser of your n900)	20:56
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konttori	if you then want to create flash lite 'application', just copy the content of the tutorial applet, it is a good example of how to create fullscreen flash application on the device.	20:56
konttori	then just replace the tutorial.swf with your own, and boom.	20:57
timeless	konttori: do you use mfe?	20:57
konttori	(obviously, also make a new .desktop file and the usual stuff)	20:57
konttori	timeless: yeah	20:57
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timeless	try opening calendar, open a synced item	20:57
timeless	swipe left	20:57
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timeless	swipe right	20:57
timeless	does it say the item is synced?	20:58
timeless	for me, on this n900 it says n900 (Local)	20:58
timeless	if i leave the view and open the item directly, it says n900 (Synced)	20:58
konttori	lemme see...	20:59
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konttori	timeless: yeah, it does	21:01
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timeless	does which?	21:01
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konttori	timeless: it says local after swipe back.	21:03
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timeless	cool	21:04
timeless	anyone here use mfe w/ pr1.1.1 or older?	21:04
timeless	konttori: next exciting feature	21:05
timeless	switch to agenda view	21:05
timeless	open the app menu, settings, manage calendars, uncheck birthdays and synced	21:06
timeless	tap done, save	21:06
timeless	you should be in agenda mode	21:06
DocScrutinizer-8	moo	21:06
timeless	but for me, i (sometimes) have a blank window	21:06
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timeless	if you switch to week and back to agenda, you should see a button for new event	21:07
konttori	lol, I have stumbled often on odd things in calendar application	21:07
timeless	confirm?	21:07
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DocScrutinizer-8	hi konttori	21:07
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timeless	the calendar app seems to be full of magic tricks	21:08
timeless	things to make you blink and think you were seeing things	21:08
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pupnik	cannot click on "Start" in Flash_Lite_Visual_Example.swf	21:09
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johnsq	Hi	21:20
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hrw	hi	21:21
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hrw	timeless: calendar app is full of bugs too	21:22
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timeless	=query #meego	21:23
timeless	oops	21:24
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Trizt	timeless; you begun to work with meego stuff yet?	21:30
Trizt	at work I mean	21:31
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mikki-kun	hm, what is the correct way to put aliases in my .ashrc so that every time i start a term this file is read?	21:32
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timeless_mbp	Trizt: only if you count asking someone for a cname for mxr.meego.com using my work address 'work'	21:34
timeless_mbp	or talking to the intel l10n lead	21:34
timeless_mbp	so, anyone here w/ pr1.1.1 or older and mfe?	21:35
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* timeless_mbp really wants to know if these bugs are reproducible there		21:35
microlith	timeless_mbp: yeah I've got that	21:35
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pupnik	mikki-kun: i put aliases in .profile and they get loaded	21:37
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mikki-kun	ahhhh, thanks :)	21:38
timeless_mbp	microlith: did you see my instructions to konttori? can you try them?	21:38
mikki-kun	so i should rather use .profiles than .ashrc?	21:38
microlith	let me scroll up an dtry	21:38
timeless_mbp	thanks	21:38
Trizt	timeless_mbp; okey, thats progress at least :) yes, I do have 1.1.1	21:38
Trizt	whats mfe?	21:38
timeless_mbp	mail for exchange	21:38
timeless_mbp	aka activesync	21:38
timeless_mbp	aka ...	21:38
Trizt	no, nothing like that, we have thought of having such beast at work, but this far we have managed to avoid it	21:39
DocScrutinizer-8	nausea	21:39
Trizt	damn, I should take a nap before it's time to work	21:40
microlith	hmm	21:40
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microlith	timeless_mbp: I ended up on agenda view	21:40
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hrw	http://blog.barisione.org/2010-05/gtk-surprises-on-maemo/ - nice read	21:46
timeless_mbp	microlith: there are two distinct bugs	21:46
timeless_mbp	the question is what do you see	21:46
timeless_mbp	in the agenda one, you might end up w/ a blank view	21:46
timeless_mbp	or at least no 'new event' button	21:46
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DocScrutinizer-8	~seen javispedro	21:47
infobot	javispedro <~javier@Maemo/community/council/javispedro> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 2h 19m 32s ago, saying: 'oh, that's bad news -- I loved the way you handled it.'.	21:47
lcuk	hrw, indeed	21:49
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hrw	lcuk: noted my comment there?	21:49
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microlith	timeless_mbp: the display rendered normally	21:50
timeless_mbp	microlith: try the other problem	21:50
timeless_mbp	it's more consistent	21:50
* timeless_mbp will be back in 1-5 hours		21:51
lcuk	hrw have just a little faith, people are trying	21:52
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microlith	timeless_mbp: yes, an item marked as (synchronized) went (local) after swiping	21:55
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microlith	and reverted to (synchronized) after reopening the item	21:55
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microlith	actually, the first item you transition to is marked as (local)	21:56
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hrw	lcuk: users are trying to have a faith, yes. I forgot that such thing exists when it comes to maemo5	21:57
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barisione	hrw: you never know what is going to happen ;)	21:58
barisione	(and by this I actually mean you never know)	21:58
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hrw	barisione: sure, but as I said many times I lost any faith in nokia 'so called' developers teams knowledge	21:59
hrw	barisione: the good thing is that at least contacts have some external people working on it.	21:59
lpotter	ya, we're not real developers...	22:00
hrw	barisione: because calendar (which is internal written afaik) was designed and written by nokia 5110 user	22:00
hrw	lpotter: I said nokia - you are trolltech first then nokia for me	22:00
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RST38h	real developers develop for iphone	22:01
* RST38h ducks		22:01
lpotter	nope. real developers develop for nphone	22:01
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lpotter	besides, you should blame the engineers	22:04
lpotter	shouldn't that is	22:04
hrw	rather designers + managers	22:04
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hrw	designers did disaster designs for some soft (calendar), quite good for other (contacts). then developers wrote something more or less conform to designs. then managers decide will it get released or not. and if then when	22:06
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* RST38h doubts these UI designs were ever tested on the real users		22:07
lpotter	I see you have been assimilted...	22:07
hrw	as a user I can not change anything in that chain	22:07
lcuk	hrw - if you had the calendar are there any things from your list you would be able to have a go at curing?	22:07
hrw	as a developer I also can not chane anything	22:07
lpotter	sure you can. bug reports do get listened to	22:08
hrw	lcuk: I could at least go for my bug 6933 as it looks like <1h work	22:08
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6933 Alarm times are shown wrong	22:08
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* lcuk nods		22:09
hrw	lpotter: please... wontfix, will be fixed in harmattan, moved into brainstorm - those are my favorite solutions used	22:09
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lpotter	well.. some fixes might break compatibility	22:10
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hrw	I voted for many bugs which got me more or less irritated and those which got 'resolved' mostly did moved to trashcan^Wbrainstorm	22:11
hrw	lpotter: such as bug 6933	22:12
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hrw	bug 5294 is another example of terrible design. wontfix for fremantle is what I see it	22:14
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5294 Support for modifying/deleting a single occurrence of repeating event	22:14
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Goliath23	hi	22:18
Goliath23	is this the correct channel for questions related to qt maemo development? (nokia qt sdk)	22:18
* alterego wonders why the simulator takes so much CPU power ..		22:18
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lcuk	alterego, because the n900 is so awesome :D	22:19
Goliath23	I currently try to make my first steps, and I wonder why an application in the simulator with a simple qmainwindow has a gray background. I thought it would be using hildon style already (and thus, be black) .. wrong assumption?	22:20
hrw	Goliath23: #maemo-qt exists too	22:20
lcuk	hrw Goliath23 #qt-maemo	22:20
hrw	ops, long time since last time I was there	22:20
zokier	there is #maemo-devel too, although its quite quiet	22:21
lcuk	heh tis ok - how is your qt coding coming on?	22:21
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hrw	lcuk: mine? halted	22:21
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lcuk	because of blockers?	22:22
lcuk	or no time?	22:22
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hrw	lcuk: no sense in writing software which is not available for users (aka 'I do not use extras-devel' people)	22:23
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hrw	lcuk: and after stopped I moved my time into other areas	22:23
hrw	s/which is not/which can not be made/	22:23
lcuk	reasonable enough	22:24
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Otacon22	Hi all,	22:24
Otacon22	i need to add a program in my N900 menu	22:25
Otacon22	i've created a .desktop file for hildon	22:25
Otacon22	now there is the icon in the menu	22:25
Otacon22	but i'm not able to start the program	22:25
Otacon22	the program is a python game made with pygame	22:26
siman01	does anyone know anything about using spinlocks? specifically why I can't find /usr/include/linux/spinlock.h and what the alternatives are I don't think building against all the kernel headers is the right solution?	22:26
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Otacon22	i've tried to use exec=/usr/bin/python /path/script.py	22:26
Otacon22	and also to add #!/usr/bin/python in the .py script and then just give to exec the path of the script	22:26
microlith	siman01: there's also semaphores and mutexes	22:26
Otacon22	but still not working	22:26
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barisione	hrw: were you at fosdem? or was it another guy complaining a lot about the calendar? :)	22:27
hrw	barisione: I was there and I always complain a lot about maemo5 calendar crapp	22:27
MohammadAG_	Otacon22, Exec=python /path/file.py should be enough	22:27
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Otacon22	ok	22:27
barisione	hrw: I wonder if we actually talked (outside of the pub on friday night, it was me, a nokian working on the browser, maybe you and another guy)	22:28
hrw	barisione: if you want to hear more from me in person I will be at UDS-M next week	22:28
hrw	barisione: that was me	22:28
barisione	hrw: ah! :)	22:28
barisione	the maemo world is small	22:28
siman01	microlith: yes thank, I'm not familiar enough with the code I'm porting, the OSX port used spinlocks do you think it would be wise to look into using samaphores or mutexes instead, is there a reason for spinlocks being uncool	22:29
hrw	barisione: I remember that someone had internal nokia build on n900 there	22:29
hrw	barisione: and was talking bullshits about adding video calls and mms support in pr1.2	22:29
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microlith	siman01: spinlocks have specific use cases for critical sections, mostly where speed is of concern	22:30
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barisione	hrw: define “talking bullshit” :) maybe he was saying something true and maybe not	22:30
PhonicUK	hey all	22:30
Otacon22	MohammadAG_, it is not working here	22:31
Otacon22	from terminal it starts	22:31
Otacon22	but not with the launcher	22:31
PhonicUK	my n900 failed to boot 4 times in a row, then seemed to recover :\	22:32
MohammadAG_	Otacon22, does it need root privileges to launch?	22:32
Otacon22	no	22:33
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pupnik	for some reason my synergy build is working again...	22:34
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lcuk	Otacon22, pastebin your .desktop file	22:35
Otacon22	ok	22:35
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siman01	microlith: the code I'm wanting to port is here http://lxr.ingres.com/lxr/source/src/cl/hdr/hdr/csnormal.h#2583 I think I need to understand it better, thanks for your help.	22:37
melfar	is maemo window manager opensourced? the thing that renders windows and allows to switch between them	22:37
Otacon22	lcuk, http://pastebin.com/Vzf0EjMT	22:37
jaska	iirc its matchbox	22:38
MohammadAG_	MyDocs?	22:38
Otacon22	for the icon i've used another one just for test	22:38
Otacon22	yes	22:38
Otacon22	i've said that is a my app	22:38
MohammadAG_	move it out of MyDocs	22:38
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hrw	barisione: right	22:39
hrw	melfar: mbwm2 was open last time when I looked at it	22:39
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hrw	melfar: but as this is maemo5 component it can have quite closed development	22:40
Otacon22	MohammadAG, nothing changes	22:41
hrw	melfar: you can check maemo.gitorius.org	22:42
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melfar	is it called hildon-desktop now?	22:42
hrw	no, thats separate	22:43
hrw	bye all	22:44
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melfar	libmatchbox2?	22:44
melfar	thanks hrw	22:44
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ruskie	hmm does kernel-power include a fbconsole or not?	22:46
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korhojoa	hmm. webmin for n900 would be awesome	22:49
korhojoa	remotely turn on and off stuff	22:49
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MohammadAG_	which package is py_compilefiles in?	22:50
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* DocScrutinizer wonders if N900 has WOL :-P		23:07
DocScrutinizer	(just kidding, on "remotely turn on...")	23:07
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, it should be able to if you can connect an ethernet adapter and keep supplying data + 5V after shutting down	23:11
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DocScrutinizer51	hmm and what's with WLAN?	23:12
MohammadAG	same?	23:13
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DocScrutinizer	interesting question	23:17
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DocScrutinizer	but I guess you can't keep the WLAN chip powered while the main system is mostly shutdown	23:18
Corsac	remote wakeup is evil	23:19
opdf2	is there a list of support voip codecs by n900? I can only find this: http://www.forum.nokia.com/Technology_Topics/Mobile_Technologies/VoIP/Nokia_VoIP_Framework/VoIP_support_in_Nokia_devices.xhtml	23:19
DocScrutinizer	so it's probably academic effort to check if the WLAN chipset supports WOL, and if there's a IRQ line to wake the main system	23:19
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SpeedEvil	well - ...	23:19
tybollt	...'	23:20
SpeedEvil	I get ~150 hours or so waiting on wlan.	23:20
SpeedEvil	That's not with the CPU all teh time in C4	23:20
DocScrutinizer	opdf2: using wireshark you easily can catch a SDP package on call setup, and read out what's the set of codecs N900 SIP offers to the remote client	23:20
ruskie	hmm so nobody knows if the power kernel supports fbcon?	23:21
SpeedEvil	so it should be possible to get >>150 hours with 'wake on lan' done in software	23:21
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Corsac	ruskie: I don't think so	23:21
opdf2	DocScrutinizer: cool thanks	23:21
ruskie	hmm to bad	23:21
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DocScrutinizer	opdf2: or you simply call twinklephone (linux SIP softphone) and cjeck in twinkle's logs	23:21
ruskie	I guess I'll stick with jebbas kernel then	23:21
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: ( if you can connect an ethernet ) perfectly feasible with USB hostmode	23:29
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: and applying VBUS would wake the device	23:29
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DocScrutinizer	:-)	23:29
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MohammadAG_	DocScrutinizer, :)	23:30
SpeedEvil	Can someone remind me where that nice kernel cross-ref of the n900 kernel is?	23:30
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: if you find it, please add it to the wiki. I'm interested as well. For now I go with the very basic http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/drivers/usb/musb/musb_core.c stuff with its clickable names	23:33
toggles_w	q	23:33
SpeedEvil	http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html :)	23:33
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SpeedEvil	Ah - I think that's what I meant - sorry.	23:41
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SpeedEvil1	DocScrutinizer: http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/search?string=wake.on.lan&regexp=on&find=%2Fkernel%2Fdrivers%2Fnet%2Fwireless%2Fwl12xx%2F&findi=&filter=^[^\0]*%24&hitlimit=&tree=fremantle oh well - I guess that would have made it too easy	23:53
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C-S-B	how playable is psx on n900 these days?	23:58
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SpeedEvil1	http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/drivers/net/wireless/wl12xx/wl1251_acx.h#974 looks interesting - but it's another case of Oooh! Another standard to read.	23:58
SpeedEvil1	(to fully understand)	23:58

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