IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-05-15

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thopiekarX-Fade: got my email?00:17
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* thopiekar is going to sleep now... cu l8er :)01:12
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jaskaugh, 2 days idle -> battery empty, guess i need a new one01:28
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aspectwhen I switch off my nit, why does it sometimes leave the d-pad LED flashing?01:53
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lbtaspect: you have a message?01:59
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Macerwow that last episode of bones was really shitty03:04
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Proteousjaska: sometimes it's rouge processes sucking up the juice while everything else is idle03:44
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Proteousrogue03:44
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GAN800Ug S6005:05
GAN800Can't install a freaking IRC client because of expired certs05:06
GAN800No matter what I set the goddamn date to.05:06
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BobbeGAN800, hack it my friend. Hack it =)06:33
BobbeGAN800: is your firmware new?06:33
GAN800580006:37
GAN800Haven't figured out OTA updates06:37
johnxha! hacking phones, an age old tradition06:37
johnxI remember getting into debug/monitor mode on a startac06:38
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Bobbethe hack seems to be a standard-issue HelloOX hack GAN80006:42
johnxspeaking of hacks, and GAN800 here will especially enjoy this: I now run the jailbreak on ipod touches as part of my 9-5 job06:43
BobbeGAN800, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coD7XAyv1nQ06:44
BobbeHave fun06:44
Bobbejohnx, o_O?06:44
johnxyup06:44
Bobbeelaborate06:44
Bobbepls06:44
johnxwe use them as an educational tool for handing out to kids to watch videos on (in a supervised area), but we don't want kids going in and mucking around when they should be watching their video06:45
johnxso we jailbreak so we can turn off all the functions that aren't video basically06:45
GeneralAntillesjohnx, lol06:45
Bobbelol06:45
johnxI turned out 6 today in the afternoon...what a *$&%$ing annoying process06:46
BobbeI wonder how Steve would explain to the world how it is SO DAMN WRONG that ur jailbreaking his devices to do terrible, obnoxious things, like educating children06:46
johnxheh, and that we need more control of the device so we can give someone else less control06:47
johnxwe are jailbreaking to remove features06:47
Bobbeexactly.06:47
johnxand I'd have no problem convincing them to go with Nokia stuff except that the N9xx hardware isn't out and the N8x0 hardware is obviously being phased out06:48
johnxto say nothing of the fact that a touch isn't any cheaper than an n810 ...06:49
Bobbetalk about phasing out. I got it here in Brazil for around R$400 (conversing and adapting to the US market it would be something like 99,99)06:49
GAN800lol, the 5800 turns its screen on to show that retarded wallwart warning06:49
Bobbeand even got a router in the pack06:49
GAN800and they ship with freaking AC-8Us06:49
johnxBobbe, that's a nice deal06:49
Bobbeexcellent, actually. I'm all perked up tinkering with mine, tho i have no idea what I'm doing sometimes. Just sad that it doesn't get overclocked06:50
Bobbethat and hardware acceleration drivers would make it sweet for a more years of use06:50
Bobbe*a few more years06:50
GAN800OC would break it06:51
BobbeGAN800, AC-8Us are an excellent idea. I charge my E71, old 5200 and my N800 on one plug06:51
BobbeOC?06:51
johnxeh, overclocking probably wouldn't break it if done sparingly06:51
Bobbeah, overclocking lol06:52
* Bobbe dumb today06:52
Bobbeppl talked about going as far as 600mhz, but I don't think it would take the heat06:52
Bobbeeven 450, 500 would be excellent.06:52
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NaviI charge my bluetooth headset and N800 on one plug06:53
NaviI need the other one for my E7006:53
GAN800johnx, igor explained it somewhere06:53
GAN800johnx, basically, it aint gonna happen06:54
Bobbeis the e70 that one that the kb opens to both sides?06:54
GAN800You'll fry the cache or something that's tied into the CPU timer.06:54
NaviBobbe: yes06:54
johnxah, right. I remember Igor saying it wouldn't happen, but I forgot that it was a "fry your hardware" kinda thing06:54
Bobbethat's old-school =). U still use it daily?06:55
johnxhey Navi :D06:55
Bobbehow bizarre, ovi store is asking for a login06:56
NaviHello06:56
GAN800Ugh, apparently it's not possible to update this piece of shit OTA06:56
GAN800Whatever feature on Nokia's website existed to send you the required settings is now gone06:57
GAN800Jesus this is some complicates bullshit06:57
BobbeGAN800, what do u mean by update? like get the apn info?06:57
GAN800OTA firmware updates06:57
Bobbeusb?06:57
johnxGAN800, are you liking the phone otherwise?06:58
GAN800it bitches about creating a new server profile but apparently the required info isn't available anywhere.06:58
GAN800johnx, I guess, but this is turning my vision red at the moment so I can't really say06:58
GAN800Bobbe, no Windows here.06:58
Bobbeouch07:01
GAN800Seriously, not one goddamn useful answer on the whole internet07:05
NaviIt's Nokia07:05
luke-jr__N900 has a 3 gpx camera07:05
luke-jr__64000x4800007:05
GAN8005mp07:05
NaviNokia support sucks in the far west, remember?07:05
luke-jr__GAN800: shh, I'm starting a rumour07:06
GAN800Navi, internet doesn't have a thing to do with geography07:06
NaviBut the Nokia site does07:06
johnxit has everything to do with written language though07:06
Naviand Nokia's crappy servers07:06
ShadowJKExcept nokia has different firmware for different regions :)07:06
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* johnx could only find answers to his Samba problems in German07:07
GAN800Can't this infp just come from another goddamn phone.07:07
johnxthat would be too easy07:07
johnxpeople would be able to upgrade their phones whenever they wanted. we can't have that07:07
GAN800Why did I think Symbian would be a good idea?07:08
johnxoptimism about the unknown07:08
johnxsame reason people think the n8x0 is a desktop replacement07:09
luke-jr__johnx: because it's useless as anything else?07:09
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NaviPfft07:09
Navithe UI shit is all third party07:09
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luke-jr__Navi: what?07:10
johnxluke-jr, so you think GA thought that Symbian would be a good idea because it's as useless as anything else? that doesn't even make sense...07:10
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luke-jr__N8x0's default UI is not third party07:10
NaviThe UI shell for Symbian07:10
* Navi smacks luke-jr__07:10
luke-jr__johnx: what is Symbian? :p07:10
NaviConnecting to the Nokia servers and receiving the info is all Nokia's in-house crap07:11
GAN800I like how the 'Download themes' link takes you to a page with a half-dozen crappy backgrounds.07:11
NaviThough, Symbian sucks in general07:12
BobbeGAN800, dude, I think it would take less time for you to install windows on a box and update it than trying over the air. servers must be down or something07:13
GAN800Bobbe, I HAVE NO server infp07:13
GAN800it's all blank and there's apparently no way to get it07:14
GAN800and, no, installing Windows is not an option07:14
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Bobbeer... what's infp?07:14
Bobbe(sorry)07:14
GAN800info07:14
NaviOh, just to mention07:15
Bobbek07:15
johnxluke-jr, it's the thing that runs on most of the phones in the world07:15
Navilast I heard, OTA is only supported in Europe07:15
NaviThat's why you got no shit info07:15
johnxmore irony: one of my tasks for tonight is to install windows 7 on my work macbook07:15
NaviAnd if it is, it's flaky at best07:16
ShadowJKA friend at work has a 5800, and it had a firmware upgrade check thingy that said, when he showed it to me, that he had the latest firmware07:17
ShadowJK(europe)07:17
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NaviNokia could care less about the land dominated by LG and Motorola07:19
johnxmotorola is dominating something?07:19
johnxa mud puddle?07:19
Bobbelol07:19
NaviMotorola makes some of the best crap phones07:20
NaviPeople get Motorola phones for free with contract07:20
Naviwho cares about features, right?07:20
johnxmaybe, but right now they're not pushing many07:20
johnxLG and Samsung are eating their lunch07:20
johnxjust saw sales figures a bit ago07:20
Naviorly07:20
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NaviThey've been pushing more commercials as well07:21
johnxlet's see if I can dig it up07:21
BobbeNavi, I don't think it's geographic07:21
Bobbehttp://nokiabr.blogspot.com/2009/04/atualizando-o-xm-5800-via-ota-over-air.html07:21
ShadowJKI guess also in the US most phones are sold bundled and locked to contracts, with firmware locked down by the operator..07:21
Bobbethat might as well be the reason07:21
NaviIt's regional07:21
BobbeGAN800, is your phone locked?07:21
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GAN800No. . .  .07:22
GAN800Nobody in the US carries Nokia phones07:22
NaviDon't know why they still have the premiums on the Nokia phones in the US either07:22
GAN800There are a grand total of maybe 3 E/N-series phones available with contract07:22
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Bobbewasn't at&t selling the e71 at 99?07:24
Bobbeis it one of the three?07:24
ShadowJKNavi, what premiums :)07:24
NaviShadowJK: 499 for hardware that is half a decade old07:25
ShadowJKI don't think anyone is taking pre-orders for N97 at lower price than Nokia USA :)07:25
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GAN800480? Nope. ;)07:25
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ljpNavi: its because in the US, the operators wont subsidize Nokia phones07:28
BobbeGAN800, is Comes With Music working OK? Have u tried it yet?07:28
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GAN800No07:28
GAN800Not tried it07:28
Naviljp: so it has to be as expensive as subsidized unlocked phones?07:29
BobbeGot this in nokia support discussions: "I spoke with a collegue who works for Nokia in the EU and they have just recently changed the management structure (read between lines) at their US division. The lack of US support is just one of the many failings Nokia HQ has recognzed in their US division. "07:29
NaviYes, the lack of support is a pretty obvious thing07:29
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Bobbewell, I'm off guys. GAN800, if you have access to a linux box, ppl have been able to use PC Suite to update their firmware over vmware. But if windows is not an option, I suppose a windows vm is not either07:37
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b1ackdeathpenguinbait's  install-tools-N810e.deb dosnt work on 43-7 right?08:01
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jaemhey folks08:27
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jaemto clarify, does anyone know if Diga @Web is only free for the beta period?08:29
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thuxmorning09:29
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* Stskeeps yawns09:49
* Myrtti sighs09:51
* Stskeeps passes Myrtti a hello kitty coffee mug09:51
Myrttithankies love09:51
Stskeepsthings i never thought i'd do in my life: check up on chinese forums with translate.google.com in the morning09:52
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RST38hSts: We all feel your pain.09:58
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Macerhave to love a nutjob setting people on fire10:13
Stskeepsmm?10:15
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rkirti /whois Myrtti10:24
rkirtioops...sorry for that10:24
Stskeepsmorning rkirti10:24
rkirtimorning Stskeeps10:24
Stskeepswhen is it the gsoc students are supposed to start their work btw?10:25
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rkirtiStskeeps: 23rd May. though its only for the namesake. All the people I know are racing ahead with their projects :)10:26
Stskeepshehe10:26
Corsacdo we know if freemantle will have some PDA capabilities (like PIM, sync etc.) which diablo doesn't really have?10:28
Stskeepsthey have a calendar backend and sync it seems10:28
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Myrttilast day of vacation *sigh*10:29
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aquatixMacer: aww10:31
aquatixerm10:31
aquatixtab error10:31
aquatixMyrtti: aww10:31
aquatixenjoy it :)10:31
biiterhi, i wonder, how is internet table "internet" when default web browser and fennec are slow as hell? .. and gui in general... is there any alternative with less overload?10:31
Stskeepsbiiter: you will want to try out Tear10:32
Stskeepsit's excellent10:32
Stskeepsbased on webkit engine10:32
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radic_does an replacement for nolo exist?10:32
biiterok.. ill try :)10:32
Stskeepsit really has caused me to use my tablet much more for browsing10:33
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JaffaStskeeps: is it in a single repo yet? Last time I looked there was a repo from qole and one from Bundyo10:35
biiterStskeeps: and any GTK replacement?10:35
Stskeepsnot sure10:35
Stskeepsbiiter: as in newer GTK? that's a worse question :)10:35
Macerhaha10:35
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Jaffabiiter: There are Qt apps, SDL apps, EFL apps and liqbase10:35
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biiterit works like this ? (gtl / qt)<-hildon<-app ??10:49
biitergtk10:49
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Summelihow fast is the qt?10:50
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biiteroh yeah... tear is cool :] thx10:55
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Jaffabiiter: Hildon is a framework on top of Gtk10:58
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ShadowJKthe browser is so fast browsing mailing list archives. wish all web pages were as light :-)10:58
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biiterJaffa: and can it be on top of qt?10:59
Jaffabiiter: No. But the Qt port has its own equivalent (and may even use the same names - I dunno, not looked at the API)11:00
Summelihmm. maybe I could benchmark the qt blit some day :P11:01
biiterok.. btw.. why maemo uses gtk when nokia owns qt11:01
Stskeepsnokia didnt own qt when maemo started :)11:01
biiterdammit.. ok :]11:01
biiterthx11:01
biiteroh, and that 2d/3d co-processor on the board is used natively or it needs to be requested by application?11:03
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qgilI'm intrigued about the reasons why a http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/ reader would click thumbs down to the entries about the Maemo Summit and the Danish Weekend...11:07
lbtthe qt hildon stuff aims to be comparable to the gtk and use the same dbus api11:07
lbtthey can't go and they're fed up?11:08
suihkulokkiqgil: some enviromentalist dissaproving excessive travel? :P11:08
Jaffa:)11:08
qgilsuihkulokki: that could be11:08
qgillbt: what is the question exactly?11:10
lbtqgil: that was an answer to bitter/Jaffa :)11:10
lbt(essentially does Qt have Hildon?)11:12
Stskeepsit emulates hildon11:12
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RST38hqgil: Track him done and wrestle the answer from him!11:12
biiterthis could be replacement http://qt4.garage.maemo.org/11:13
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biiterhttp://qtablet.laginen.net/doku.php11:16
biitergot to sit on this11:16
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lbtbiiter: yes, I'm working on it too11:18
lbtright now I'm doing scroll-bounce11:18
lbtfingerscrolling works11:18
biiterfu*k.. im late on exam... afk11:19
Stskeepstablets > exams11:19
Stskeeps;)11:19
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thuxis there tablet degree like rhce?11:22
thuxhands on test tuning tablet11:22
ShadowJKbiiter: 3d accel not used by anything. Some 2d accel used by mplayer, liqbase, media player...11:22
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ShadowJKeither through direct hw access (mplayer) or through Xvideo11:23
ShadowJKmedia player also uses the dsp for mp3 :)11:23
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RST38hCurrent Xv only exposes YUV buffers11:27
ShadowJKyeah well, it's designed for video after all :)11:27
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JaffaX-Fade: ping11:58
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timeless_mbpcrashanddie: ping12:19
Stskeepsmorn timeless_mbp12:20
timeless_mbp2am..., how's life on the other side of the world?12:20
Stskeepssunny for once12:20
murraycWhere is the modest package for the Maemo 5 Beta? In extras? It doesn''t seem to be in extras-devel12:23
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Stskeepshttp://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/m/modest/ ? :P12:25
murraycYeah, I just saw that, which suggests that it's in the main repository.12:25
murraycBut "apt-get install modest" can't find it.12:25
Corsachmhm, did someone already tried to dist-upgrade a tablet to fremantle using the sdk repository?12:26
Corsacthat would be fun12:26
StskeepsCorsac: it's armv7 targeted12:26
Stskeepsso12:26
murraycCorsac: That will not work.12:26
Corsacwell, for some value of fun, maybe12:26
Corsacha yes, forgot that12:26
Corsachmhm, though the ABI is still armel, so the binaries should at least run?12:26
Stskeepsarmv7 on a armv6 machine..12:27
lbtfor some definition of run that includes stationary12:28
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RST38hSts: May run =)12:29
Stskeepsyes, may12:29
Stskeepsbut also be crashable :P12:29
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RST38hwell crashable =)12:29
Corsacwell, it the abi is changed, whouldn't the arch be changed too?12:30
Stskeepsabi isn't changed, arch is12:30
Stskeepsit's still armel12:30
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Stskeepsarch as in armv5, armv6, armv7 .. etc12:30
CorsacI mean, one is supposed to be able to run _i386.deb stuff on an i386 nowadays (provided you can run the kernel)12:30
Corsacok12:30
RST38hABI and CPU architecture versions are different things12:31
RST38harmv7 vs armv5 is like Pentium vs i38612:31
RST38hThe code will mostly run until it hits a Pentium specific instruction where it will fail.12:32
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Corsachttp://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/05/15/nokia-launching-high-end-handset-with-capacitive-touchscreen-i/ could that be for the n9xx?12:37
RST38hNo.12:38
RST38hThe keyword is "handset". It will be an S60e5 device.12:38
RST38hAn update to 5800 (supposedly named 5900) has been rumored, so that may be it12:38
JaffaCorsac: the future tenses on "will adopt" also seem odd when Nokians have pre-production hardware already12:39
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murraycAre there really no modest packages that I can apt-get install for the Beta SDK?12:42
RST38happarently12:42
murraycThat's a strange definition of "released".12:42
RST38hgimme a moment12:43
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RST38hhttp://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/m/modest/12:43
RST38hmurrayc: is this it?12:43
murraycBut "apt-get install modest" can't find it.12:43
RST38hhave you got this repository in your config file?12:43
murraycAnd I can't figure out any extra sources.list line to make that work.12:44
RST38hjust wget + dpkg12:44
murraycThe Beta SDK has this by default:12:44
murraycdeb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free non-free12:44
murraycdeb-src http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free12:44
murraycdeb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free non-free12:44
murraycdeb-src http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free12:44
RST38hAh I see your problem12:44
murraycI can never figure out those lines.12:44
RST38hAdd deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle free non-free12:44
murraycI tried that.12:45
RST38hAnd the same for deb-src12:45
murraycW: Couldn't stat source package list http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_dists_fremantle_free_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory)12:45
RST38hthen do apt-get update12:45
murraycSo I guess the Packages file is missing.12:45
RST38ha moment12:45
murraycSo it's maybe an orphaned .deb.12:45
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RST38hOk, I have looked at it12:47
RST38hIt looks like the Packages file has not been set up yet12:47
murraycYeah. I'll complain in a comment on the beta SDK announcement. So much of the stuff mentioned there just doesn't exist.12:48
murraycThanks for verifying that I'm not completely stupid.12:48
RST38hJust wget+dpkg for now12:48
murraycI don't want to fuck up my target by doing that kind of thing.12:49
murraycAnd it has dependencis that I'd have to mess around with too.12:49
murrayc(I developed some of the code for the Diablo version)12:49
murraycSo, yes, I could install it from git, but I am annoyed that it's not easy for regular people.12:50
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RST38hYou will not fuck up your target12:50
murraycReally, I can do that.12:50
Myrttilock in target12:51
murraycI'm that good.12:51
RST38hDo not install from git, install from that pool directory12:51
RST38hJust do it with dpkg - and it will work exactly the same as if you did it with apt-get12:51
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RST38hBTW, if you look at http://repository.maemo.org/dists/ you will see that all the maemo5 directories disallow browsing. My guess is that they do contain Packages files etc but these have references to internal stuff Nokia does not want us to see12:52
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CorsacJaffa: so no way n9xx may have capacitive screen?13:30
Stskeepsi doubt it really13:31
Stskeepsespecially with the two-finger thing13:31
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JaffaThe part number found in the kernel also is of a resistive screen.13:37
Corsacok13:37
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pacificyo pples i need some help13:41
Stskeepsbetter to ask the question immediately instead of asking for help13:41
Stskeeps:P13:41
pacificmy torrents on niiiiiiiiiiit dont work13:42
pacificim usin transmission13:42
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mikkov_that's not a question :)13:43
mikkov_X-Fade: ping13:44
Jaffamikkov_: I've had an X-Fade ping outstanding since 09:57, so it might time out ;-)13:45
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jeremiahStskeeps: Did you see I signed up for some Mer hacking while in CPH?13:51
jeremiah:P13:51
Stskeepsyeah - sounds great :)13:52
jeremiahI look forward to it.13:52
Stskeepswe'll be a nice cluster, me, you, johnx, rm_you, lbt, claudius13:54
jeremiahYeah, starting to get critical mass.13:54
Stskeepsyeah.. a lot of technical preparations to be done before that - i'm glad we got OBS up and going13:56
Stskeepswill make things a hell lot easier13:56
* Jaffa sad to be missing it :(13:56
Stskeepsbetter come for the summit then :P13:56
RST38hhe won't have a choice being the debmaster :)13:57
* Stskeeps glances at his presentation notes13:58
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jeremiahI am going to start replacing *@debian.org email addresses in packages since I doubt debian devs are uploading to maemo14:00
Stskeepssome might :P14:01
jeremiahqgil: Can we also make sure that Nokia packagers also follow the Maemo packaging policy and place the _real_ email address of the packager.14:01
jeremiahStskeeps: Yeah, some might, and I know a couple - but this package, OpenCDK is group maintained.14:01
jeremiahAnd the control file is identical.14:01
jeremiahwith upstream14:02
jeremiahSo, I am a bit suspicious here.14:02
Stskeeps*nod*14:02
biiter_ShadowJK: thx14:02
Jaffajeremiah: Isn't that what Uploader is for?14:02
JaffaThe package *is* maintained by *@debian.org, but someone has uploaded it to another repo with no changes.14:02
Stskeepsi wonder how many extras packages there are that are no-changes14:03
jeremiahJaffa: "Uploader" is actually a debian package field14:03
JaffaStskeeps: Mostly the command line stuff - certainly the exception rather than the rule14:03
jeremiahIt denotes who uploaded the package into a VCS - not to debian (at least in the case of debian-perl)14:04
Jaffajeremiah: Doesn't Ubuntu use it for who uploaded it to the repo (I've never seen a documented definition of its use before)14:04
* Jaffa is coming at this from a position of little knowledge; not one of trying to convince you I'm right, btw ;-)14:05
jeremiahI'm not sure what Ubuntu does actually - I should find out, but debian uses it to give credit to whomever did the packaging, not who uploaded it. :/14:05
CorsacUploaders: are the people authorized to be in the changelog line, more or less. If you aren't in Uploaders: and still do that, that's an NMU14:05
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JaffaCorsac: NMU?14:06
Corsacnon-maintainer-upload14:06
JaffaRight.14:06
jeremiahAn NMU is when some else than the package maintainer uploads a package14:06
Corsacyes14:06
jeremiahSo for bug fixes or when the original maintainer is MIA14:06
JaffaWhere "upload" here is "put in repo"?14:07
jeremiahIt is considered bad form in debian to do NMU14:07
Corsacdepends14:07
Corsacit's ok to do nmu fixing bugs14:07
jeremiahJaffa: Unfortunately, it is not really clear.14:07
Corsacrc ones14:07
jeremiahIt is a mess, actually.14:07
Jaffajeremiah: Right.14:07
jeremiah:/14:07
Corsacit's perfectly clear, upload means upload to debian ftp archive14:07
_berto_jeremiah: ubuntu has Maintainer: and Original-Maintainer: for packages moved from debian14:07
JaffaCan we not slavishly copy it then? :)14:07
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jeremiahCorsac: Not at all.14:07
Corsac:>14:07
Corsacmhmh?14:07
jeremiahIf you look at my packages in debian, you will see I am in the uploader field14:08
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JaffaCos I'm guessing Ubuntu has faced many of the packaging issues from Debian upstream that Maemo also does14:08
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jeremiahBut I am not a DD and cannot upload to debian14:08
jeremiahSo I "upload" to the svn repo, and a DD uploads to debian14:08
_berto_jeremiah: what's the uploader field ?14:08
Corsacwell, if you are a DM and DM_Allowed:yes is present, you could :)14:08
Corsacbut basically you can be the one doing the change and have it sponsored14:09
jeremiah_berto_: It is a field that denotes that you brought software into debian's repos, but not into their mirrors.14:09
_berto_jeremiah: there's mentors.debian.net for maintainers to put their packages so DD can upload them14:09
Corsacjeremiah: btw, DD I am14:09
jeremiahCorsac: What is important to note is, uploaders often are not DDs so they don't really "upload" to debian14:09
Jaffa"upload" as equivalent to "put in VCS" seems very counter-intuitive to me (put debian/control in VCS or the source or the whole source package?)14:09
jeremiahJaffa: Exactlyl.14:09
jeremiahOr exactly even.14:09
Corsacbasically Uploaders are people who have the right to do changes to the packages. Maintainer was more adapted but already taken14:10
CorsacMaintainer: wasn't adapted to team-maintainance14:10
_berto_jeremiah: i've never seen that field, where is it ?14:10
jeremiah_berto_: In the control file14:10
jeremiahnot every package has it14:10
jeremiahIt is usually used when you have group maintenance of packages14:11
jeremiahLike in the debian python or debian perl group14:11
_berto_ah okay14:11
jeremiahSo that way, the person who made the package gets credit for doing the work as "uploader" and the Maintainer field, which receives bug reports, etc. gets kept for the group14:11
Corsacthough you could have an Uploader: field for package not maintained in vcs, but that would make a quite hard workflow14:11
Corsacbasically, the person listed in the changelog file for that entry is the people taking responsibilty for the upload, even if he can't upload directly and have to ask someone else14:12
jeremiahJaffa: Maybe we can get rid of it - the policy says nothing about it.14:13
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JaffaI think my point is that given the confusion around here, there's scope for jeremiah to start discussions on maemo-developers for a sensible usage for Maemo, that some packages (although mostly CLI stuff) will be ported with no change from Debian; and that the person who maintains a package in Maemo is - very typically - also the person who does the development (few people taking upstream tarballs and doing a *lot* of packaging effort and not coding effort)14:13
jeremiahWhat I would really, really like though is for people to put their _real_ email address in the maintainer field so we can contact them if there is a problem, like now with diablo -> fremantle.14:14
jeremiah(Jaffa)++14:14
Corsacdefinitely14:14
* Jaffa would say "*a* field" ;-)14:14
Jaffajeremiah: For the current problem, can you get hold of the original auto-builder/upload logs?14:15
jeremiahJaffa: Yeah, I can.14:15
jeremiahJust a lot of grepping. :)14:15
JaffaThose tie up with maemo.org accounts andbingo.14:15
JaffaCool14:15
Corsachttp://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-Maintainer might help14:15
jeremiahCorsac: Good link.14:15
jeremiahThe maemo policy, which is a pdf so I won't link, says:14:16
jeremiah"If an upstream package is modified for maemo, the Maintainer field MUST be change from the original."14:17
jeremiahAnd the typo was min.14:17
jeremiahe14:17
JaffaSo, yesterday when I uploaded netkit-telnet-0.17_36 (or somesuch) straight from Debian, that was fine. But when I changed the Section and added XB-Maemo-Icon-26, I changed the Maintainer and the version.14:18
jeremiahJaffa: Perfect.14:18
jeremiahI wish everyone would do that. :)14:18
jeremiahOooops. Looks like I am spamming the fremantle builder. =)14:19
JaffaBut if there was a problem with the former, the Maintainer would still be @debian.org - even though that's valid.14:19
JaffaBut then, saying, "add an Uploader" (or similar) changes the package; so the Maintainer has to change.14:19
jeremiahJaffa: Oh yeah, that has to get changed actually.14:19
JaffaDamn.14:19
lardmanmorning all14:19
jeremiahHell lardster.14:19
JaffaTwo more links: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Debian/ForUbuntuDevelopers#Required%20packaging%20changes and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-April/025325.html14:20
lardmanhey jeremiah14:20
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jeremiahOne needs to replace the Maintainer with the Maemo maintainer - and you can chose to create a XSBC-Original-Maintainer field for the debian field14:20
mikkov_jeremiah: I hope that you wouldn't upload any of my user/* packages to fremantle14:22
jeremiahmikkov_: Can you tell me what they are - I thought I was supposed to upload as much as possible14:23
mikkov_jeremiah: well I can't remember them all :) but for instance openlierox which is in build queue.14:24
mikkov_jeremiah: actuallu most of them won't build with fremantle, so actually it shouldn't be a problem14:25
Stskeepsjeremiah: wasn't it more along lines of testing if it works and get back to developers?14:25
jeremiahStskeeps: Yeah, it was kinda like that. But setting up the build system somewhere else is non-trivial.14:26
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Jaffajeremiah: That sounds like a good plan (XSBC-Original-Maintainer)14:28
* Jaffa needs to make sure mud doesn't allow creating naughty packages, but makes it easy to take upstream and republish.14:28
JaffaOr tarballs, or whatever.14:28
* RST38h requests that the number of necessary fields be minimized and, more importantly, the number of necessary package config files be minimized14:28
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RST38hSo that I do not need to jump all over control, changes, files, etc every time I do a release14:29
jeremiahRST38h: Absolutely. Note that XSBC-* is optional.14:29
mikkov_Jaffa: according to policy netkit-telnet should have had version14:30
jeremiahBut not changing the Maintainer will be a QA failure, a la lintian error.14:30
mikkov_Jaffa: 0.17-36maemo214:30
Jaffamikkov_: "had version"?14:30
RST38hjeremiah: Actually, I would rather add these fields to control than add them to other files14:30
Jaffamikkov_: True - I was rushing.14:30
jeremiahRST38h: That is where they are.14:31
RST38hjeremiah: like changes (it also needs email address)14:31
* Jaffa is planning on making mud do that for me automatically - but hasn't yet.14:31
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jeremiahRST38h: Changing the format of the changelog and other debian files leads to cataostrophic problems in apt and the apt toolchain.14:39
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Corsacyeah, that's not really something you want to do :)14:42
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timeless_mbphi jeremiah14:55
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lbthmm, very interesting backlog... thanks jeremiah, Corsac and the rest...  I need to address lots of this in Mer too.14:59
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Corsacno problem15:02
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lbtand you're on my goto list for packaging advice now ;)15:06
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qgiljeremiah: http://blog.jeremiahfoster.com/?p=113 is good!15:17
qgilnow... what about putting that content in http://wiki.maemo.org in a please where your target audience will probably look at the future.  :)15:18
qgilin a place15:18
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rkirtisorry for an extremely noobish question, but what exactly is a FIASCO image ?15:25
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StsN800rkirti, nokia's firmware format for tablets15:26
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StsN800hey wazd15:27
rkirtiStsN800: ok15:28
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lcuklbt, \o i gather you have seen the qt-kinetic posting on itt, since you have qt working nicely, wanna get the examples built and running so we can see and feel and give proper feedback to the guys? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=2899315:34
* lcuk likes the look of the flickr viewer15:36
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fiferboylbt: Hey, how's it going?15:49
* RST38h yawns then moos15:49
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jeremiahqgil: Yeah - I will do that. :)15:57
AStormhello15:58
AStormcould someone nice build us python2.5-pyprocessing package?15:58
AStormhttp://pyprocessing.berlios.de/ - and probably has an Ubuntu and Debian packages15:59
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AStormhello?16:04
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AStormor has everyone switched to Mer already? :>16:04
RST38hNo, we are all running WinCE16:05
RST38hWith nice C# scripting builtin!16:05
AStormhttp://packages.debian.org/lenny/python-processing16:06
AStormso there is a package16:06
AStormnow I need someone to submit it to a buildbot16:06
lbtAStorm: Mer buildbot?16:07
AStormoh, it requires ctypes... that has to be done too16:07
AStormno, Maemo one16:07
AStormMer has it already (Ubuntu has that)16:07
AStormand Mer has Python 2.6 too16:07
lbt'k16:07
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lbtFYI Ubuntu seems to have python problems ... I hear lots of gnashing of teeth16:08
lbtbut you may know that already :)16:08
AStormnot enough to cause me grief16:08
AStorm:)16:08
AStormstill, I need these in Maemo too :)16:08
lbtlcuk: why not16:09
lbtfiferboy: hi16:09
lcukexcellent :)16:09
lbtfiferboy: it's a pain in the finger!16:09
fiferboylbt: How is it working?16:09
lbtmeh... mainly OK but some sign/maths issues16:10
fiferboyAnything I could look in on?16:10
lbtlcuk: they appear to be commercial16:11
lbtfiferboy: I can send you the cpp16:11
AStormhttp://packages.debian.org/squeeze/python-multiprocessing - this would be even better16:11
fiferboySure16:11
AStorm(same package, but a backport)16:11
lcuklbt? ocmmercial in what way16:12
lcukas in you cant use them on maemo>?16:12
AStorm;-( no one to help my case?16:13
lbtI found a 'buy now' link for @web and stopped looking16:13
lcuknot those :$ sorry the first link gives a few example things16:13
lcuklike a flickr viewer16:13
lbtAStorm: Maemo is dead, long live Mer....16:13
lcukand a recipe list16:13
* lbt ducks16:13
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AStormlbt, yeah yeah16:13
AStormbut I have to support both!16:13
lcukjeremiah, would you kindly give AStorm some advice about his package :)16:13
AStorm(and stationary machines too)16:13
lcukbbl16:14
AStormjeremiah, I don't have the build env on me16:14
lbtAStorm: don't you need to have an extras project for it?16:14
JaffaAren't the PyMaemo packages so wildly different to Debian/Ubuntu that sorting out the Depends line will be "fun"16:14
Jaffalbt: no, anything can be put in the auto-builder/extras without a garage project. Garage is a hosting service entirely separate to extras16:15
AStormJaffa, it won't, as ctypes has no deps16:15
AStormand multiprocessing deps only on ctypes16:15
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AStormso these go like any python packages for Maemo16:15
AStormalthough.. I don't know how to package them16:16
AStorm:)16:16
lopzhola16:16
lbtfiferboy: broken src incoming16:17
fiferboyDo you have an idea about where the problem is?16:17
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jeremiahlcuk: I certainly would. :)16:18
mikkov_Jaffa: PyMaemo for Fremantle is following debian packaging. For diablo it was completely different16:18
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lbtvel1.ry() = (16:19
lbt(((vel.ry() >0 )16:19
lbt  ? vsb->maximum()16:19
lbt  : vsb->minimum()16:19
lbt) - scrollBase.ry()) / scrollFactor.y() + curr.y())/braking_cycles;16:19
fiferboyOkay, so that is overshoot decel16:20
lbt> or < and should I be + or - scrollBase and is it the same for top/bottom16:20
lbtand I should be able to do simple algebra16:20
lbtand it's embarassing!16:20
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lbtcirca line 158016:21
fiferboySometimes I rush through things like that, and when it is wrong try flipping a sign and making it more wrong16:22
jeremiahAStorm: So, if I understand it, you want Ctypes packaged for Maemo?16:22
fiferboyIt's hard to start over and look at it objectively when you think you are close and a little change could fix everything16:22
lbtyeah... done that... the list scrolls off the screen and vanishes16:22
lbtdid that too... but it was late last night and bed caught up with me...16:23
AStormjeremiah, that and multiprocessing (Debian squeeze has a backport)16:23
lbtit's much saner now16:23
fiferboycould it be this line:  if (vel1.ry() < 1.0 and vel1.ry() > -1.0)16:23
fiferboyShould be or?16:23
lbtno... that just makes sure we're close to 016:23
lbti -1 < vel < 116:24
jeremiahAStorm: It looks like Ctype is provided by python16:24
lbtif so then we're stopped16:24
fiferboyRight, I'm not thinking well yet16:24
lbt(d'uh)16:24
jeremiahAStorm: How do you know it is missing in maemo?16:24
lbtand the cartoon elastic kicks it16:24
AStormjeremiah, mhm, then it's not needed :)16:24
lbtbut it's real elastic16:24
AStormthus, only multiprocessing16:24
lbtso it gives an instant kick and then constant velocity!!16:25
AStormit has some funny libjs-iquery dep16:25
jeremiahI'll check the package in Squeeze.16:25
AStorm*libjs-jquery16:25
jeremiahlibjs-iquery, oy.16:25
AStormhttp://packages.debian.org/squeeze/python-multiprocessing16:25
jeremiahThat will have lots of dependencies itself I'll bet16:25
AStormno, it doesn't16:25
jeremiahAh good16:25
AStorm(except the javascript-common)16:25
AStormoh, even that isn't a dep, just recommended16:26
jeremiahWhy does a multithreading library rely on a Javascript web library?16:27
jeremiahVery weird16:27
AStormprobably XDR16:27
AStorm(which is in Python 2.6, but not 2.5)16:27
AStormor some event system16:27
AStormweird anyway, esp. that:16:27
fiferboyI understand why you are using the ry() function for the assignment, but why use it elsewhere when you are just getting the value?16:27
AStormhttp://packages.debian.org/squeeze/python-processing16:27
AStormdoesn't have that dep16:28
AStormand it's almost the same lib16:28
fiferboylbt: Oops, I should have references you on the last one, it will get lost in here16:28
AStorm(older version, actually)16:28
lbtit did16:28
jeremiahAStorm: Ah - so I might try to package the python-processing from Squeeze then. :)16:29
lbtAFAIUI the ref based one is faster as the compiler essentially just uses a pointer and does no function calling....16:29
AStormjeremiah, I'd prefer multiprocessing, but any will do16:29
lbtand cut'n'paste habit16:29
fiferboylbt: Is the function printing the debug info properly?16:30
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lbtyes16:30
lbt1 sec16:31
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andrewfblackHello16:32
lbtit's going back too far16:32
RST38hhello andrew! how is minimalist2 doing?16:34
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andrewfblackI've been fighting my last bug for 2 days16:35
jeremiahI'll package python-processing :) Perhaps you can try to package multiprocessing? Packaging python apps is not hard, and having me package and maintain everything in maemo does not scale well. :P16:35
fiferboylbt: The function is moving in the correct direction, but going too far?16:35
lbtyeah I need to calc how overshot are we in pixels16:35
RST38handrew: anything that can use external help?16:36
AStormjeremiah, I probably should - this means I'd have to set up a VM for Maemo scratchbox16:36
AStormwhat was that URL?16:36
AStormand I don't have access rights to post it16:37
andrewfblackwell i'm having trouble with the thanks showing up twice on a post and using alot of space.  I considered removing thanks and releasing now then adding thanks back later,  You would be able to thank someone just not see who thanked on a post.16:38
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RST38handrew: it really sounds quite acceptable to me, the thanks feature is nice but minor16:41
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fiferboylbt: Do VMAX and DECEL_DURATION not cancel each other out?17:07
lbtline?17:08
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fiferboy1327 and 132817:08
lbtthe definitions?17:08
lbtvmax is max speed17:08
lbtdecel_duration is in milliseconds17:08
fiferboyYes.  Are you ever going to reach DECEL_DURATION now that you have VMAX?17:09
AStorm:-( no jeremiah17:09
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lbtso normal 'friction17:09
fiferboyI must misunderstand what DECEL_DURATION is doing17:09
lbtlasts for 1.5seconds17:09
AStormand I'm fairly pressed for time on that (only a day or two at best)17:09
lbtor until the deceleration hits 017:09
fiferboylbt: What happens after 1.5 seconds?17:09
lbts/decel/velocity17:09
lbtit stops17:09
lbtdead17:09
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lbtits more a safety thing from before I had vmax :)17:10
fiferboyBut with VMAX and deceleration you should stop after a certain time anyway, I assume less than 1.517:10
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fiferboyIf it is more than 1.5 then DECEL_DURATION is just cutting off the movement17:10
lbtyes17:10
lbtnow we have vmax the DECEL_DURATION isn't really needed17:11
fiferboyRight17:11
lbtgood catch for optimising though17:11
fiferboyGlad I could do something.  I don't understand your scrolling math enough to help with the overshoot problem17:11
lbt:(17:12
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crashanddie_spl: ;)17:12
lbtessentially you have pixel values (curr and vel)17:12
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lbtand the scrollbar has a range value which is not 1:1 pixels17:13
lbtso scrollFactor converts17:13
fiferboyRight.17:13
lbtdelta_px to delta_range only though17:13
fiferboySo each step of the scrollbar is X pixels?17:13
lbtso then there is a base offset for both px and range17:14
lbtyes or 0.X17:14
fiferboyOkay.17:14
lbthence floating point value too17:14
fiferboyQPointF.  Got it.17:14
AStormlbt, so, you're overshooting because conversion is not exact17:15
lbtno17:15
lbtit's a gui 'effect'17:15
AStormhow much?17:15
lbt'cos fremantle does it17:15
AStormah17:15
lbtit's kinetic scroll17:15
AStormhopefully toggleable17:15
lbtyeah ;)17:16
AStormI know it's kinetic17:16
* lbt isn't sold but it looks nice17:16
fiferboySo with overshoot you have the velocity when it hits the end of the list17:16
AStormis less useful though than nice-looking17:16
lbtyes17:16
fiferboyHow are you making the list scroll past it's limits?17:16
lbtcommented out the bounds check ;)17:16
lbtin the core17:16
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AStormthe question is - what kind of deceleration do you want?17:17
fiferboylbt: Whoa, that's hardcore!17:17
lbtfactor/timestep17:17
AStormconstant? linear? quadratic?17:17
AStormlinear this is.17:17
AStorm:)17:17
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lbtis it?17:17
lbtvelocity halves per 0.1 seconds17:17
AStormsure, dv/dt = const17:17
lbtnon-linear17:18
lbtfactor, not value17:18
AStormah, so you have constant deceleration17:18
lbtlike gravity17:18
fiferboyWell, I assume it is there for some reason.  Mostly for programs that don't check the bounds before trying to set the values.17:18
AStormso velocity is square root17:18
lbtfiferboy: we'll do better17:18
AStormlbt, mhm, though I prefer sharper than that17:18
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AStormmaybe use log?17:18
lbtactually I use 0.7517:19
fiferboyWhere do you comment the bounds check?17:19
lbtAStorm: integer math?17:19
lbt(mainly)17:19
AStormso v /= e^nslice17:19
lbtqabstractslider17:19
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lbtvel1.rx() = (vel1.rx()*DECEL_PC)/100;17:20
fiferboyMaybe instead of commenting it out, put in another function that doesn't have a bounds check?17:20
lbtfiferboy: I will, and in fact may shortcut it out to use _hs_slide17:21
fiferboyI'm just looking at qabstractslider source17:21
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AStormlbt, why not v *= e^-dt ?17:21
AStormexp is in math lib17:21
fiferboyYou do it in the setValue functions?17:22
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lbtAStorm: simple approach 1st.... and it's pretty nice.... nb what's the equation for friction?17:22
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lbtfiferboy: yes17:23
AStormfriction? that's "a force"17:23
AStormF = m*a17:23
fiferboyI see it, value=d->bound(value)17:23
AStormv = 0.5 * a*t^217:23
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AStormk * v / t^217:25
fiferboylbt: So in the code in question you have overshot and the velocity is close to 0, this is where you have to scroll back to the limit?17:25
AStormobviously, you need some epsilon to stop17:26
lbtyes17:26
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Stskeepslardman|afk: http://www.jiongtang.com/blog/html/digital-product/smartq7-unboxing.html btw17:27
fiferboylbt: So what is it you are setting vel1.ry to?17:27
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AStormalso, what is the timeslice? :)17:28
lbt50 ms17:28
AStormbecause the starting velocity is measured over a timeslice17:28
AStormthat's too slow for decel, but decent for measuring17:29
lbthttp://pastebin.com/d40de85cf17:29
lbtcurrent code ^^17:29
fiferboy(sbMax.y() - scrollBase.ry()/scrollFactor.y()+curr.y())/braking_cycles17:29
AStormat least, I think so17:29
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lbtfiferboy: now, I cheat here17:29
AStormyou'll need, say, 2 timeslices to measure vstart17:29
lbtand the rebound is linear velocity17:29
lbtAStorm: done in the fingerscroll moveEvent code17:30
AStormmhm17:30
fiferboylbt: Is the new code closer to working?17:30
AStormthen, on each timeslice, just apply the equation17:30
lbtshould be17:30
fiferboyCompiling?17:30
lbt279 on that pastebin AStorm17:31
lbtactually it's on the tablet but I'm chatting...17:31
AStormlbt, missed it?17:31
lbthttp://pastebin.com/d40de85cf17:32
lbtneed to go back to  0  from  -29  ScrollFactor  1  so  -251  px for  7  iterations17:32
lbtyeah, that's sounds wrong...17:33
AStormrx *= 1/2 * k17:33
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AStormor 1/2 * 1/k - for speed factor as opposed to slowness17:34
lbtAStorm: what would you replace line 279 with ?17:34
fiferboylbt: Do 0 and -29 seem right?17:35
AStormry = ry / 2 * somefactor17:35
lbtthat's the same code17:35
AStormthen curr.y += ry17:35
AStormno, you're not changing velocity17:36
AStormwhich is wrong - it has to halve17:36
lbt28317:36
lbtOVERSHOOT_DECEL_PC is 0.5 * somefactor17:37
AStormugh17:37
lbtugh?17:37
lbtit's the same maths17:37
AStormI see what you mean17:37
AStormhow is vell.y and vell.ry related?17:37
lbtoriginally I had the 100 in there to avoid integer maths results of 0.4 -> 017:38
lbtsame value17:38
lbtliterally17:38
lbtry is a reference to y17:38
lbtallows private data to be directly modified17:38
lbtfiferboy: yes, 0 and 29 are spot on17:39
lbt-2917:39
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AStormI take it that ry is actually dy - delta?17:40
AStormdy = delta y I mean :)17:40
AStormso it's then that vell.y() is to halve17:40
AStormnot vell.ry which is the delta17:40
AStormdelta would be constant 1/2 * somefactor17:40
AStorm:)17:40
AStormok17:40
lbtno17:40
lbtvel is a QPoint object17:40
lbtholding x and y17:40
fiferboySo, shouldn't it be "need to go back to 0 from -29 ScrollFactor 1 so (scrollBase.ry() + curr.y() * scrollFactor.y()) px for 7 iterations17:40
lbtyes... but I'm chatting again17:40
lbtheh17:41
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AStormhmmh17:41
Maceri am watching a movie called conspiracy about the nazi meeting about the final solution17:41
AStormso do calculate actual velocity, that is dx17:41
AStormand dy17:41
AStormand not cheat17:41
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AStormthen halve that and add to curr.y17:42
Macerand one of the actors is jewish :)17:42
lbtno need17:42
AStorm(after multiplying by the scale factor)17:42
lbtand anyway17:42
lbtworking at pixel level loses accuracy17:42
lbtand you get nasties17:42
AStormsure it does, but dx is not in whole pixels17:43
lbtI should have said vel is a QPointF object (float) so that keeps things honest17:43
AStormagain, what is vel. velocity? so vel.x is dx?17:44
lbtno vel is velocity vector17:44
lbtvel.x is x component17:44
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AStorm...17:45
AStormso vel.x is dx, you.17:45
AStormKINETIC_REFRESH/VSCALE17:46
AStormI know what is VSCALE - but kinetic refresh?17:46
AStormis it dt?17:47
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* Stskeeps is kinda impressed17:49
RST38hMakesyour download go faster if you continue circling the screen with your finger?17:49
Stskeepsthe public services with digital signature etc and so on work on ubuntu17:49
AStormRST38h, looks like it, I don't know what this crud is17:49
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AStormthe screen should be refreshed every some ms17:50
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AStorme.g. 50 ms17:50
lbtvel.x is x component17:50
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lbtsorry wrong window17:50
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lbtAStorm: yes17:51
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AStormbut then, you need to calculate delta for that time, so vel.x = (cur.x-old.x)/TIMESLICE17:51
AStormassuming you measure over one timeslice17:51
lbtI'm not calculating vel17:51
AStorm?17:51
lbtI'm calculating dx using vel17:51
AStormwth?17:51
AStormno, you have to compute starting velocity somehow17:52
lbtthis is overshoot?17:52
lbtwe know start velocity17:52
AStormdo don't17:52
lbtline 190 ish17:52
AStorm*you don't17:52
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lbtwe also calculate it twice17:53
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lbtto avoid some glitches in mouse events being duplicated on some systems17:53
AStormI see *VSCALE there17:53
AStormwhy?17:53
lbtconst int QAbstractScrollAreaPrivateScroller::VSCALE          = 100;  // velocity scaling to ensure not lost in int rounding17:53
AStormmhm, ok17:54
AStormlast - curr = FAIL17:54
AStormcurr - last17:54
AStormwrong direction17:54
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AStormagain, what is KINETIC_REFRESH17:56
AStormthink about it17:57
lbthmm, good point... I had something on this way back... it's because the scrollbars are inverted IIRC17:57
AStormwhy do you multiply by it17:57
lbttimeslice17:57
AStormyes, but your speed is in pixels17:57
AStormnot pixels/second17:58
lbtthat's not a speed17:58
AStormactually, pixels/ms17:58
AStormor whatever your dt base unit is17:58
AStormis cur_time Unix timestamp?17:59
AStormevent_time.elapsed() - what's the unit?17:59
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AStormOVERSHOOT_DECEL_PC should be 5018:01
lbtI think you could really help point out inconsistencies in the code... it may be worth reading through it a bit to get the structure and find where some of the points you raise are commented... Then I'd really appreciate patches, comments or suggestions :)18:02
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AStormor if you really want it accurate, then -18:02
lbtI do18:02
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lbtbut I'm very close to it18:03
lbtan independent review would help18:03
AStormDECEL_PC/100 / 218:03
AStormthe whole value18:03
AStormthe default should be halving the speed18:03
RST38hWhat program are you all looking at anyway???18:03
lbthttp://pastebin.com/d40de85cf18:03
RST38hWhat is all this kinetic stuff?18:03
AStormnow, the factor is slowness factor18:03
fiferboyRST38h: Qt finger scrolling18:04
lbtRST38h: extension to qAbstractScrollArea to allow fingerscroll + fremantle bounce18:04
AStormor rather, 0.5 * (DECEL_PC/100)18:04
AStormthen rounded to int18:04
fiferboyDavid has implemented it in such a way that all Qt programs running in Hildon automatically take advantage of it18:04
RST38hAh, cool18:04
lbtto get it accepted it needs to be minimal and efficient18:05
AStormif necessary, do 5 * DECEL_PC/100 / 1018:05
lbtso whilst true physics is nice18:05
lbtapproximations are good enough ;)18:05
AStormit is true physics :)18:05
AStormthat is, almost true physics18:05
AStorm(you're missing the 1/2 factor)18:05
lbtbut that's not the problem18:06
RST38htrue physics is where it shatters your device when it reaches the end of the list at full speed18:06
lbtand I'm using large values now18:06
lbtto debug18:06
AStormlarge values of what?18:06
lbtso I actually see the effect in slow motion18:06
lbtOVERSHOOT_DECEL_PC 5018:06
AStormmhm18:06
lbtshould be closer to 80... rubber wall, not gravity18:06
AStormthen add that 5/1018:06
lbtyeah... so when we tune it that's great18:07
lbtbut right now it's broken18:07
lbt:(18:07
AStormbroken, how?18:07
lbtheh,18:07
AStorm(show some print output)18:07
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jukeyhi , is there anybody who know where to get information about an error of maemoscrobbler?18:07
lbthttp://pastebin.com/d28c7b69518:08
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jukeythe gui shows me: Status: Error submitting (14:56)18:08
lbthow to describe broken animation on irc ?18:08
lbtgiven my camera went for repair 2 days ago?18:08
fiferboylbt: Does this make any sense?  http://pastebin.com/m313311cb18:08
fiferboyLine 27218:08
AStormlbt, something is very wrong... you get constant v18:08
lbtOverShootStabilise is supposed to be constant v18:09
AStormthis shouldn't happen, it should always halve18:09
AStormno, or it's not physics18:09
AStormah, wait18:09
lbtactually it should accelerate and then decelerate18:09
AStormwhat does that do?18:09
lbtcos at the turning point v=018:09
AStormthe Stabilize part18:09
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lbtread the state code18:10
AStorm#18:10
AStorm                        if (braking_cycles-- <= 0) {18:10
lbtfiferboy: almost18:10
AStormbad, use velocity for cutoff18:10
AStormnot cycles18:10
lbtvsb->max is in 'value', not pixels18:11
AStorme.g. if vel.ry() < something, vel.ry() = 018:11
lbtfiferboy:   ) - scrollBase.ry()) / scrollFactor.y() - curr.ry())/braking_cycles;18:11
AStorm(actually, abs(vel.ry())18:11
lbtI think we subtract target - old_val18:12
lbtand I did target - (a +b) = target - a +b18:12
lbtAStorm: this code has 2 decelerations and a rebound18:13
lbtfriction deceleration on release18:13
lbtrubber deceleration on hitting the limit18:13
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lbtand linear rebound18:13
AStormrubber deceleration?18:13
AStormwth is that?18:13
lbtimagine hitting a rubber end-stop18:13
AStormah, that thing18:14
AStormyou need an oscillation for that18:14
AStorme.g. sin * 1/2 * k18:14
lbtnot pretty in a gui18:14
AStormyep ;P18:14
AStormother than that, no need for deceleration - just stop18:14
lbtso we have what I descrobed ... 2 decelerations and a linear rebound18:14
AStorm:)18:14
fiferboylbt: Are the numbers any closer now?18:15
AStormok, again, when is "rubber decel" active18:16
AStormand rebound happens when you hit an edge?18:16
lbtno18:16
lbtrubber decel at an edge18:16
AStormuhm, wha?18:16
lbtrebound when rubber decel stops you18:16
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AStormhow would that be useful?18:16
AStormso that it stops always before you hit an edge?18:17
AStormit's horrible18:17
lbtno, it *starts* to stop18:17
lbtwhen you hit an edg18:17
lbte18:17
lbtand then goes past the edge18:17
lbtstraining mightily18:17
AStormah, so you're simulating an indented surface?18:17
lbtlike in a cartoon18:17
lbta rubber wall18:18
lbtI call my widget Tom18:18
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AStormok, so proper function is still friction...18:18
lbtthen when he has fully stretched out the rubber wall18:18
AStormbut you get additional force added18:18
lbtno, elastic18:18
AStormsame!18:18
AStormit's still a force18:18
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lbtno elastic force proportional to stretch18:19
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AStorm(at least, can be modelled as one)18:19
AStormlet me check18:19
lbtbow+arrow18:19
fiferboylbt: I would describe it more like an elastic band holding something back when you hit the edge18:19
AStormhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_elasticity18:19
AStorm^18:20
fiferboyIt pulls against it (decelerating) and then it starts being pulled back18:20
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lbtyes18:20
lbtbut mine twangs18:20
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lbtimparting energy in a sudden impulse18:20
lbtinside the first timeslice18:21
lardmanwhoa, still doing elestic modelling18:21
AStormworking  correctly18:21
lbtand having cV after that...18:21
AStormthat's how elasticity works18:21
AStormall the stored energy is released at once18:21
fiferboyAh, so different from most kinetic scrolling rebounds I have seen18:21
lbtIn addition linear elasticity is only valid for stress states that do not produce yielding.18:21
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lardmanor heating18:22
AStormlbt, in other words, hitting a spring is linear18:22
AStorm(more or less)18:22
lbtanyway, I don't care :D18:22
lbtright now I'm getting antimatter hitting non-linear springs and some kind of perpetual motion18:23
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AStormso, your model acts correctly... like a spring :)18:23
lardmando you have a damping term in there too?18:23
fiferboylbt: I like the sound of that!18:23
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lardmanobviously not, but do you plan on having one?18:23
AStormlardman, friction should be the damping term18:23
lbtit's so broken that I don't care about the precise shape of the deceleration curve18:23
lbtI have 2 damping terms18:23
AStormlbt, you have to apply friction to the rebound too18:24
lbtone for normal slowdown18:24
lbtone for hitting an end stop18:24
AStormwrong18:24
AStormfriction should apply to both18:24
lbtwrong18:24
lbtone is friction18:24
lbtone is elastic18:24
lbtone results in rebound one doesn't18:24
AStorm"hitting an end stop" should happen before it hits an edge, right?18:25
AStormor as it hits an edge?18:25
lbtthe end stop/edge is a rubber band stretched across the path18:25
lbtand it goes past the limit18:25
AStormyes18:25
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lbtso Y coords:18:25
fiferboylbt: What are your debug numbers after the latest changes?18:26
AStormok, then your rebound velocity should be calculated like this18:26
AStormvelrebound = - vel * springyfactor18:26
lbtkeep chatting, I'm going to code some things and start a build18:26
AStormwhere that factor is less than 118:26
andrewfblackRST38h: you around?18:27
lardmanbbiab18:27
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AStormlbt, and after the rebound, it should be also affected by friction18:27
AStormyou just get another starting velocity18:28
lbt018:28
AStormnot 018:28
AStorm-vel * 1/springiness18:28
lbto18:28
lbtI guarantee you it's zero18:29
AStormit's not if it was scrolling18:29
lbtsince it passes from +ve velocity to -ve velocity18:29
AStorm...18:30
AStormrebound happens at an edge18:30
AStormwhen velocity is >018:30
AStormotherwise it stops18:30
AStormactually, when abs(velocity) > 018:31
AStormso you still need to calculate velocity somehow18:31
AStormthis time, not from scrolling, which doesn't happen18:32
AStormso, you get 2 cases18:32
AStormone, where point was moving before hitting the edge18:33
AStormand 2, when your rebound starts at an edge18:33
lbtimagine the scrollbar is a ball on a traintrack. It rolls and eventually stops. That's friction. It rolls and slows down but before it stops it hits a rubber band stretched across the track between two posts. It slows down more quickly but goes past the posts and stretches the rubber band until it stops and the band is stretched. Now the band snaps but gives the ball enough speed to get back to the posts in the same time as it got from the posts to the stopping18:34
lbtpoint. Then a magic spell stops the ball dead when it is level with the posts.18:34
lbtthat's my model that is ;)18:34
crashanddie_a ball on a traintrack would stop in less that 2m18:34
crashanddie_have you never noticed all the bumps?18:34
AStormyuck18:34
lbtmonorail18:35
AStormthis model will suck in use18:35
crashanddie_it's like the wheel of fortune, squared18:35
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AStormso, when do you want to stop at an edge18:35
timeless_mbphi crashanddie18:35
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AStorm1) when you hit it18:35
crashanddie_hi timeless_mbp18:35
timeless_mbpok, i think i have a couple of things ironed out18:35
timeless_mbpsadly i failed to hit up everyone i wanted to for this week, but i think overall i've gotten to see quite a few people18:36
AStormor... 2) when remaining energy of the point is below the band's inertia?18:36
lbtAStorm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-D-J0Y7ufM  19 seconds in18:36
lcuklbt, if you did it with a rubber band and the ball hit it with enough power to actually bend the band then the ball will fire back off down the track18:36
lbtthat's the 'rebound' phase18:36
crashanddie_lbt: as lcuk just pointed out, there's definitely a few problems with your metaphore18:36
lbtbut it doesn't need a full physics engine18:37
lcukso its a sticky rubber band so when the ball hits it its glued, but oscilates around the natural flex point of the band18:37
lcukwe should add a twoioiinggggg sound effect18:37
crashanddie_that's like brickbreaker18:37
lbtcrashanddie_: my metaphor ends in magic.... how can it be wrong18:37
AStormlbt, note it goes BEYOND the are18:38
AStorm*area18:38
fiferboylbt: Are your debug numbers any better now?18:38
lbtfiferboy: think so... but not right18:38
fiferboyAStorm: That's what the overshoot is18:38
AStormso your velocity is being reduced in a linear function of dv18:38
AStormthen goes to zero18:39
lbtfiferboy: you understand... can you explain?18:39
AStormthen springs back again as a linear function of dv, possibly multipled by some "loss factor"18:39
AStormin other words, dy is a square function of y18:40
AStormor sqrt of y18:40
fiferboyBasically, it does what the video lbt posted shows.18:40
* lbt goes for a coffee18:40
AStormdepending on the direction18:40
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: you still on for lunch then?18:40
AStorm(into rubber it's sqrt, out of the rubber it's a square)18:40
fiferboyShoots past the end, slows down, comes back and settles happily at the list end (or start)18:40
timeless_mbpi believe so18:40
AStormassuming linear rubber18:40
lcukis there a maximum amount that an overshoot can be18:40
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: I didn't see you reply, you might want to confirm18:40
AStormand *all that* is affected by friction still18:40
timeless_mbpalthough they're going to need to repoke me w/ details real soon18:41
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fiferboylcuk: There is a maximum if you have released your finger.  You can pull it back all you want with your finger on the widget18:41
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: they did,  they're waiting for your reply18:41
AStormlbt, so, you're missing a cutoff by going to v=018:41
lcukupto 1 screen w/h i assume - or can you keep pulling it back release,regrab quickly and pull back more18:42
AStormyou need v <= const instead18:42
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: reply to yesterday's email and propose a time as well18:42
timeless_mbpok, i need to learn to use Reply To All18:42
lcukif you do that for a list of 10000 items do you break the speed of light restoring it18:42
timeless_mbparg, and a time?18:42
AStormor limit vmax18:42
timeless_mbphrm18:42
fiferboylcuk: I don't think you can regrab, but that would be fun18:42
timeless_mbpok18:42
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: well if it's today, you might want to start pushing things :)18:42
lcukyeah :D18:42
timeless_mbpyeah yeah18:42
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AStormmake sure to get the loss factor in18:42
lcuki think all list items should be independent, and act like newtons cradle :D18:42
* timeless_mbp hasn't really woken up yet18:42
AStormlcuk, that'd be fun18:43
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: oh you fucking twat18:43
Jaffamgedmin: ping18:43
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: you're a veggie? That's so 90s :D18:43
timeless_mbpi'm not18:43
mgedminhi, Jaffa18:43
lcukyeah until a list item at the end fires off and out through the side of the device and takes someones eye out18:43
timeless_mbpI actually had a meat meal last night on Castro street18:43
timeless_mbpit turns out they opened a kosher restaurant there a week ago18:43
AStormlcuk, no, it'll rebound from the edge18:43
AStorm:D18:43
fiferboyluck: Don't Fremantle devices come with goggles to prevent that?18:43
timeless_mbpbut I'm not going to go there two days in a row18:44
lcukAStorm, are you sure the materials at the end are structurally sound18:44
AStormthey are18:44
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lcuknokia testing labs need to build a device to test this theory18:44
fiferboySome of my list items have a lot of mass18:44
lcuklike the pocket shuffler thing18:44
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lcukheh18:44
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AStormlbt, so, it's fake rubber band18:45
lcukwe should use the accel unit promised for fremantle to allow a list to be shook up18:45
lcukto test it18:45
AStormthe item's velocity is set to some constant upon hitting an edge18:45
AStormthat's how it looks18:45
fiferboylcuk:  That would be an awesome way to suffle a playlist18:45
lcukyeah18:45
AStormotherwise, it'd overshoot A LOT18:45
lbtno, it starts to decelerate on hitting an edge18:45
AStormor the factor is huge18:46
lbtbut faster than friction18:46
lcukfiferboy, ive been playing with lists quite a lot as you know, have you seen and felt the new framework stuff - its got an almost infinite kinetic caledar thats smooth as silk18:46
Jaffamgedmin: your cp's failing on nfs - you using nfs-user-server?18:46
AStormthen it shouldn't overshoot at all at small v18:46
lbtcorrect18:46
AStormcheck it18:46
fiferboylcuk:  You mean the Qt Declarative UI videos?18:46
mgedminJaffa: no, I don't think so18:46
AStormbtw, the correct factor is based on the width18:46
AStorm:)18:46
lcukfiferboy, theres a playtest out in the wild and keesj is tracking the source18:46
AStorm(in case of dy, or height in case of dx)18:46
mgedminJaffa: nfs-kernel-server 1:1.1.2-6lenny118:47
lcukits on a git server somewhere18:47
* mgedmin needs blog comments damnit!18:47
Jaffamgedmin: Kernel server? I've had loads of problems from hardy onwards with the user server - but it's the only one which gives me the uid mapping I need :(18:47
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mgedminyeah, that sounds familiar18:47
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lcukfiferboy, much more is in place since the pretty zooming vid :)18:47
crashanddie_how is java dev going on the n8x0?18:47
mgedminI tried to use it for the same reasons and had to stop for some other reasons18:47
* AStorm needs that python-processing... fairly quickly18:47
timeless_mbpcrashanddie_: who does that?18:47
fiferboylcuk:  Which video are you referring to?18:47
AStormand jeremiah is still out18:47
AStorm:/18:47
Jaffamgedmin: don't go into too much detail now ;-)18:48
lcukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMXp0Dg_UaY this vid18:48
lcukhttp://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=285896&postcount=260 this post where i mention about the playtest and how to run it etc18:48
lcukfind out how different mechanisms work on actual hardware and what works etc :)18:49
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AStormlbt, indeed, this is fake spring18:50
AStormsee how it takes some time when it reaches max overshoot18:50
AStormnormal elastic would either break or act at once18:50
AStormif it breaks, velocity is still non-negative18:50
AStormif it acts at once, v == 0 at some point18:50
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Maemo18:50
AStormso, they probably set the velocity to constant with - upon hitting some max_overshoot18:51
AStorm(and it still gets friction applied when returning)18:51
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timeless_mbpcrashanddie_: could you ask those clowns what they have against getting a proper certificate?18:53
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timeless_mbpChinoook18:54
timeless_mbp3 o's?18:54
timeless_mbpgah18:54
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AStormlbt, ok, let me write you the correct equation18:55
lbt:)18:55
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AStormv *= 1/2 * slowness - (hit_edge ? springfactor * 1/overshoot : 0)18:57
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AStormargh18:58
AStormno, it is correct :)18:58
AStormnow, when v reaches zero and you're overshot, you apply18:58
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AStormv = - springfactor * 1/overshoot18:59
lardmanlol, still going :)18:59
lcukyeah lardman the mechanics of underpant elastic and the forces needed to give a satisfying wedgy are complex19:00
fiferboyWell, I'm going to go get some fresh air19:01
lcukim surprised you havent got involved and modelled it for them in [*insert random mathematical prog here*]19:01
lardmanI missed the start19:01
lardmanwas too busy doing some other modelling19:01
fiferboyHopefully all the friction/spring/elastic/magic will be worked out before I get back19:01
lcukspring back19:01
AStormor rather, no19:02
AStormno, that is correct19:02
AStormthen apply friction to the resulting constant19:02
lardmanspring back will a well damped frictional halt19:02
AStormobviously, this is invalid, but seems to be what's shown in the movie19:02
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AStormshould be v = 1/2 * speedfactor * (v - springfactor * 1/overshoot)19:02
AStormand I'm lagged :P19:02
lcukcya later fiferboy_away19:02
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* AStorm needs pyprocessing BADLY!19:03
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AStormmaybe someone can do it quicker than jeremiah?19:03
lardmancan I ask what you're having troubles with?19:03
biiter_did someone found any reasonable use for the camera on n810 ??19:03
lardmansome sort of kinetic scrolling thing?19:03
lcukits the end of the kinetics they are trying to work out19:03
lardmanbiiter_: barcode scanning19:03
AStormbiiter_, yes, automatic rotation and barcode scanning19:04
lardmanbiiter_: I like the sound of starmap matching19:04
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lcukuse it for video calling19:04
lardmanyes, that one too19:04
lcukand for taking pics in liqbase19:04
AStormpics of yourself, you mean19:04
lardmandid anyone get around to making the gesture recognition app?19:05
AStormhard to aim otherwise19:05
lcukAStorm, or your friends :)19:05
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lbtlardman http://pastebin.com/d7751591119:05
lardmanneeds face recognition so you can point it randomly and it will boing when it's pointing at someone19:05
biiter_ok :) thx19:05
AStormlardman, neat idea!19:05
AStormwe have opencv on the tablet?19:06
lardmanthere's a Garage project isn't there?19:06
AStormIDK19:06
lardmanthere was talk of getting it working, I thought just some basic image correlation code ought to do the job though19:06
AStormstandard Haar recognizer19:07
lcukbbiab tracy poorly again19:07
AStormit will take like, 30 lines of code to find that face19:07
AStormor those faces19:07
lardmanlcuk: more wine!19:07
lardmanAStorm: from scratch in C?!19:08
lardman:)19:08
AStormlardman, C++, with OpenCV19:08
lardmanah cool19:08
AStormof course, given training material19:08
AStormbut there are ready-made bases of pics to get a good classifier19:09
derfDon't the Haar approaches use like 200,000 features?19:09
AStormderf, yes, more19:09
AStormbut not that many examples19:09
derfYou seriously think that'll run on a tablet?19:09
AStormyou can get good results with like 9000 positive + 9000 negative19:09
derfAt anything approaching video frame rates?19:09
AStormsure yeah19:09
derfYou're crazy.19:09
AStormassuming camera doesn't eat CPU19:09
derfHahahaha.19:09
AStorm10 FPS19:09
lardmanlbt: what is VSCALE? Some sort of scaling factor to slow the speed?19:10
AStormit takes like, 10ms to find a face on a single core of Turion X2 Ultra 2200 MHz19:10
lcukhow do they do facial recognition on the canon cameras?19:10
AStormlardman, just 10019:10
lcukor is that just facial feature recognition19:10
AStormlcuk, probably the same, or morphological detection19:10
lardmanok, just a scaling factor19:10
lcuki put sketch searching into liqbase last night19:11
ShadowJKthe facial recognition on canon cameras is funny. It thinks a beer can is a face, but fails to notice people :-)19:11
lcuki made an api to draw a sketch and it shows all the sketches which have these features19:11
derfShadowJK: Needs more AdaBoost.19:11
lcuklol shadow19:11
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AStormok, so, again19:15
AStormyou only need 1 FPS for it to be useful for pics19:15
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AStormbetter to have more, of course19:15
AStorm5 FPS is certainly possible19:15
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crashanddie_ShadowJK: is it an empty can or full can?19:19
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lardmanyuck, Haar is a learning thing19:22
lardmannot a plain-Jane algorithmic solution :)19:22
derfYou're asking for a classifier.19:23
derfOf course it's a learning thing.19:23
lardmanyeah, not my field19:23
derfIt's (one of) mine.19:23
lardmanhow many tuning params are there then?19:23
ShadowJKcrashanddie, half-full19:24
derfPresumably, the number of boosting stages, the size of the sample images, and the number of sample images.19:24
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derfI'm sure one could add more, but I don't think any more are necessary.19:24
lardmanglad to hear it ;)19:26
AStormderf, and mine too :)19:28
derfAStorm: So why haven't you written the 30 lines of code yet?19:29
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lardmanwhere's that chap who wanted an STFT on the DSP I wonder?19:31
AStormhmm19:31
AStormin which repo can I get gcc for the tablet?19:31
lardmanpoke lcuk19:31
AStormderf, yes, but not compiled for the tablet19:31
AStormand especially not packaged19:32
lardmanprobably the sdk one19:32
lbtAStorm: Mer .... standard.19:32
AStormlardman, for diablo? link/url please19:32
AStormlbt, ... Maemo.19:32
AStormfor Mer, it's in the default19:32
lbtah, there's you're problem right there.19:32
lardmandon't have one off hand, sorry19:32
AStormlbt, but target isn't a non-existent release-quality Mer19:32
AStorm;P19:33
AStormthat will happen, but much later19:33
lbtit's an approximation to release-quality...19:33
AStormuhm, no.19:33
AStormjust as linear function is an approximation of an exponential one ;P19:34
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lcukyeah lardman19:39
lardmanwine?19:40
lardmanor the location of gcc for on-tablet dev>19:40
lardman?19:40
JaffaNearly.19:40
lcukdeb http://repository.maemo.org/ diablo/sdk free non-free19:40
lardmanJaffa: how's things?19:40
lardmanJaffa: I have a glass on the go, wonderful :)19:40
Jaffalardman: first day back at work today - working from home sorting email19:40
lcuksame repository scratchbox uses19:41
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lardmanlcuk: thanks on AStorm's behalf19:41
AStormlcuk, does it contain armel (non-cross) compiler?19:41
JaffaGot a glass of a Normandy aperitif before curry & polishing off last night's bottle of red19:41
lcukyes astorm i run everything directly on tablet after using standard apt-get stuffs19:41
lardmanmmm, curry19:41
AStormbecause AFAICS Scratchbox still uses one19:41
AStormmhm :)19:41
AStormchecking19:41
AStormwhoops, not enough disk space I guess19:41
AStormtime to drop that OpenTyrian ;P19:41
lcukplenty if you dont waste it19:42
* lardman needs to push through the slightly dizzy faze and get onto some coding19:42
lcuktho i ran out the other night19:42
AStormlcuk, on 256 MB flash? :P19:42
lcukmore wine19:42
lardman+119:42
lcukAStorm, yeah theres enough to grab lots of things19:42
AStormvim is fairly huge for example19:42
lcuki wouldnt know lol19:42
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lardmanuse vi you coward! ;)19:43
AStormabiword is large too19:43
crashanddie_timeless_mbp: ping, Yves replied to your email19:43
AStormlardman, sorry, need proper multifile editor19:43
lardmanAStorm: I know, was only taking the mick19:43
timeless_mbpok, i'm getting dressed and hunting for my cell phone19:46
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* timeless_mbp ponders19:48
AStormgcc = No Matches Found... argh19:49
AStormjust added the SDK repo19:49
timeless_mbpcrashanddie_: ok, this might be complicated19:50
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lcukAStorm,19:51
lcukNokia-N810-23-14:~# apt-cache showpkg gcc19:51
lcukPackage: gcc19:51
lcukVersions:19:51
lcuk4:3.4.4-7osso2 (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_dists_diablo_sdk_free_binary-armel_Packages) (/var/lib/dpkg/status)19:51
lcuk19:51
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* lardman wanders off to watch some TV19:51
lbtfiferboy_away: done19:51
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AStormlcuk, check again the repo, hmmh19:51
* timeless_mbp can't see any way to get there by mass transit w/o needing an hour19:51
AStormmaybe it didn't dl correctly or sth19:51
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AStormok, darned redpill ;)19:52
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fiferboylbt: You got it?19:59
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lbtyes20:01
lbtfiferboy... http://pastebin.com/d5cf63d5520:02
lbtwant the .so?20:03
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fiferboylbt: I sure do!20:03
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AStormdarn20:11
AStormpython2.5-dev is huge :/20:11
AStormto heck ;)20:11
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Stskeepsanyone who happen to know what it means when NetworkManager is greying out APs? :P20:11
Stskeeps / SSIDs20:11
thopiekarStskeeps: greying out == leaving out?20:13
Stskeepsno, it shows them but they're grey20:13
thopiekarI've never seen that :P20:13
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AStormhidden networks?20:21
AStormneat, now I need libc6-dev and stuff ;P20:24
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AStormweird that python2.5-dev doesn't dep on these20:24
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AStormit should20:24
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AStormnow I'm a proud owner of pyprocessing :>20:28
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AStormand now multiprocessing too :)20:36
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RST38hmulpyprocessing?20:37
AStorm;) almost20:38
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AStormmultiprocessing module backported from python 2.6.1.120:38
AStorm(same as in 2.6.2)20:38
AStormdoesn't need any weird javascript it seems - a bug in debian package it seems :)20:39
GAN800RST38h, the 5800 is pretty nice but damn the browser sucks.20:39
AStormand it seems that debian maintainers don't test their packages either20:39
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AStormwhen jeremiah shows back, tell him that - the exact same settings will work for python-multiprocessing as for python-processing :)20:40
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mikkov_anybody have a clue how big is the flash where rootfs resides is going to be in rx-51?20:51
konttori_sure, but cannot tell20:52
konttori_how so?20:52
Stskeepsmikkov_: theres going to be a large immc source code claims.. no idea on nand20:54
RST38hmikkov: there is just two possibilities20:54
RST38hmikkov: it is either 256MB or 512MB20:55
ShadowJKnot 128? :)20:55
RST38hHe asked about flash20:55
ShadowJKyes20:56
RST38hSamsung makes 128 SDRAM + 256 flash and 256 SDRAM + 512 flash20:56
ShadowJKI'm more curious if it's going to be jffs2 or one of the newer things :)20:57
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RST38hShadow: Not very important to me20:57
lcukdo we know it the rx-51 has a data crystal reader?20:57
RST38hI suppose whatever Nokia chooses it will be something sensible20:57
RST38hlcuk: Yes, and you lubricate it with blood20:58
ShadowJKsome would argue jffs2 isn't sensible even for n8x0 :)20:58
ShadowJKbut the replacements weren't really ready yet20:58
RST38hit works20:58
fiferboylbt: :O20:59
RST38hI definitely want real file system on the internal mmc though20:59
RST38hOne that lets me install software20:59
lbtfiferboy: how does it look...20:59
fiferboylbt: I have a meeting right now, but wow!20:59
lbtit's 'exagerated'20:59
fiferboyI like the new VMAX too20:59
fiferboyWow, very nice.  I'll give you more feedback later21:00
lbtcan you do video?21:00
lbtmy camera died :((21:00
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fiferboy_awayMy camera is dead too!  Battery cacked21:00
fiferboy_awayGotta go, talk later21:00
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crashanddie_lbt: camera on n810 died some time ago as well, opened it up, and the data cable was disconnected21:02
crashanddie_lbt: plugged it back in, and works fine21:02
lbtI meant my canon ;)21:02
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lbtI want to video the Qt bounce21:02
lbtI suppose a mirror....21:02
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lcukheh21:03
lbtvnc2avi ?21:03
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ShadowJKRST38h, even with real filesystem on it you'd have to mount it in the rootfs somewhere?21:03
lcuk2slow21:03
lbtfood... back in an hour21:03
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RST38hShadow: Guess so21:04
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ShadowJKso like one step less than using loop?21:04
ShadowJKor like, reformat the mmc yourself, heh21:05
RST38hShadow: I dunno what you mean by using loop, but the current OS does not let me run stuff from mmcs21:05
mikkov_konttori_: I was just thinking if big data files (games) should still be installed to mmc21:06
ShadowJKoh, it mounts it noexec :)21:07
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RST38hShadow: there does not seem to be any security reason to mount internal mmc as noexec, so I guess there is some other reason21:08
konttori_mikkov_: whatever the size of one nand, you would want to install big data files on emmc.21:08
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konttori_anything of tens or hundreds of megabytes should go to emmc.21:08
mikkov_ok, then it's pretty small as in N8x0 :)21:09
RST38hmikkov: there is21:09
RST38hsmall and limited21:09
RST38h512 is small, 256 is limited21:09
mikkov_/media/mmc2 is still the mount point?21:10
konttori_Having exec code on a partition that gets mouted to PC is not a good idea.21:10
konttori_mikkov_: for what?21:10
lcukyou say that like pc is a security risk lol21:10
Stskeepsmikkov_: ke-recv src is open21:11
mikkov_konttori_: for emmc where I want to install my big files21:11
konttori_yeah.21:11
RST38hkonttori: if you mean windows virii, tablet won't run 'em :)21:11
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ShadowJKRST38h, quick, make up theory about why he said that, maybe there's wine+qemu-userspace21:12
RST38hShadow: it is possible to write a custom pc virus that will copy maemo-specific payload when the NIT is mounted to PC21:13
RST38hShadow: but I personally thing it is a scenario not worthy of consideration21:14
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lcukor a scripted virus that uses python or something..21:14
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lcuksurely though, its the way it is because a decision was made in the past21:14
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ShadowJKjokes aside, noexec on removable media is just common sense and good practice :)21:15
lcukif anyone thinks that decision  needs changing surely an official bug can be made21:15
RST38hOne reason is that if you are really sneaky you will give victim a data file causing NIT app to overflow a buffer and execute the payload21:15
RST38hShadow: Removable yes, dev/mmc2 no.21:15
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lcukbut from the system standpoint the mountpoint mmc2 used to be external and removable didnt it21:16
mikkov_mmc1 is external21:16
ShadowJKI think if you boot N810 without external card, it swaps them around or something..21:16
lcukon n800 mmc1 and mmc2 are both external21:17
mikkov_lcuk: but mmc2 is under battery cover21:17
lcukso?21:17
lcukits removable21:17
mikkov_so pretty much internal to me :)21:17
lcukand either way any of these can be reformatted to something better21:17
RST38hmikkov: do not offend n800 users :)21:18
lcuki have my mmc1 which was fat as ext2 and i almost did same with mmc221:18
RST38hthey consider it external and will kill you for telling them it is not really necessary to have two cards21:18
lcuksimplified ui :) http://www.lolpix.com/pictures/18/Funny_Pictures_548.htm21:19
ShadowJKplease don't bunch us N800+N810 owners together with the N800-only owners21:19
ShadowJK;)21:19
mikkov_UI calls it also internal21:19
lcukand its non executable unless  you change something21:20
lcukbut it can be changed21:20
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RST38h"It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter."21:30
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RST38h(and then discover the wonders of forall() statement =))21:31
Jaffa:)21:32
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tds5016hey all. Is there an easy way to get the mac address with python?21:57
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fiferboylbt: You back?22:03
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fiferboylcuk: You can regrab lbt's overshoot when scrolling horizontally22:09
lcuk?22:10
lcuki dont use overshoot lol22:10
lcukahhhh22:10
lcuki see what you mean22:10
lcukcool then!22:10
fiferboyBut it doesn't come back, so you can keep sending it off to the left22:11
lcuk:D excellent22:11
lcuksomeone in ML today asked about grabbing a horizontal movable frame which had a text box on it, but the textbox ate the event22:11
fiferboyFor the record, he just hasn't implemented the rubber band effect horizontally22:11
lcukyou have to wonder why people want to mix their metaphors22:12
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lcukfiferboy, can you re-energize your scrolling whilst its going, like the little impulses you give to a roundabout to keep it at speed22:17
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fiferboyI'll pretend I know what a roundabout is for the purposes of your similie22:17
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lcukhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/ilike/10662072/22:19
lcukkids stand on it, mates push them round, friends puke22:19
lcukmuch hilarity :)22:19
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fiferboyAh, I don't beleive I have ever heard it called that, but I can't recall what we used to call them.22:21
fiferboyI haven't seen one at a playground here in many year.22:21
fiferboyToo dangerous.  Kids might have fun and fall down22:22
lcuklol22:23
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RST38hfiferboy: What is this country where they banished roundabouts?22:36
fiferboyCanada.  At least, I haven't seen any here in Ontario since I was a kid.22:36
Stskeepsinsert random european country22:36
* Stskeeps doesn't believe in cotton-coating kids22:37
t_s_ohttp://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9676037801.html <- how long until running on maemo? ;)22:37
lardman|tvRST38h: roundabouts are something children shouldn't play on22:37
fiferboyThey also don't generally have wooden wingsets and climbers any more.22:37
fiferboy/s/wingsets/swingsets22:37
lardman|tvlcuk: do they not have roundabouts in the North?22:38
Stskeepslardman|tv: saw the smartq7 unboxing pics earlier?22:38
lardman|tvStskeeps: new ones? Saw something the other day22:38
lcukno, they removed then after the chavs were using em with motorbike power22:38
lardman|tvlcuk: I tend to go around them with 45 degrees bank angle... in a car22:38
Stskeeps"lardman|afk: http://www.jiongtang.com/blog/html/digital-product/smartq7-unboxing.html btw"22:39
Stskeeps(earlier today)22:39
lardman|tvthanks22:39
lcuklol lardman|tv different kind of roundabout22:39
RST38hfiferboy: Oh, the horror22:39
lardman|tvthe other child's toy has another names doesn't it?22:39
RST38hlardman: roundabouts are a useful tool of natural selection22:39
lardman|tvRST38h: indeed :)22:40
* RST38h suggests renaming roundabout "a Darwin's Gate"22:40
fiferboylardman|tv: Sometimes they are called Merry-go-rounds, according to wikipedia22:40
lardman|tvthey need bog spikes in the middle rather than grass22:40
lardman|tvs/bog/big22:40
t_s_oye freaking mcalendarsync runaway...22:40
lardman|tvfiferboy: a merry-g-round is larger and powered22:40
fiferboyThat's what I thought too, but apparently some people call the little ones that too22:41
lardman|tvand often has horses and the like that go up and down22:41
RST38hlardman: See, Canadians abolish roundabouts and the next thing they have to do is place warning stickers on everything, down to toothbrushes22:41
lardman|tv:)22:41
fiferboyRST38h: In English and French22:41
RST38hfiferboy: Oh.22:41
* RST38h almost forgot22:41
suihkulokkiwtf is a chav?22:42
lardman|tvlcuk: aren;t they called spinny-pushy-thingy-ma-bobs?22:42
lardman|tvhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav22:42
lcuk"you comin to the park to play on the swings and slide and roundabout" ..22:42
lardman|tvas I said, the North... ;)22:42
fiferboyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout_(play)22:42
fiferboyI love the picture of the homemade roundabout in that article!22:42
tds5016anyone know of an easy way to get the mac address with python?22:42
lardman|tvyeah, well I bet it was an American who made that entry22:43
RST38hlardman: both the large and small kinds are called "carousel" in Russian (fancy French word for roundabout I guess)22:43
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lardman|tvnot that I have anything against you guys, except that you don't know the names of children's playthings in England22:43
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lcukhttp://hobsons-bay-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/security-guards-watch-over-point-cook-playground/22:43
fiferboyFunny that the wikipedia article doesn't mention any roundabout-related deaths.22:43
* RST38h has never been to England, so he has got an excuse22:43
lcuklook at photo3 and you see why its needed to be guarded, but WHY did they allow it in the first place22:44
lardman|tvRST38h: carousel would be more like a merry-go-round in my book, but perhaps without the horses22:44
RST38hfiferboy: Maybe there weren't any?22:44
Stskeepsfiferboy: because if you go fast enough you fly into orbit!22:44
lcukdrill into the ground22:44
fiferboyEscape velocity!22:44
RST38hNo bodies.22:44
lcuki really like the "roundabout playpump" idea22:44
lcukthats clever22:44
* RST38h proud of making such a practical remark22:44
fiferboyBut what if there was a rubber band stretched above the roundabout and at least two other forces acting on the body?22:44
lardman|tvperhaps it is a merry-gop-round22:45
lardman|tvaargh, can't type22:45
RST38hfiferboy: children would either remove or tear it.22:45
RST38hfiferboy: next question.22:45
* lardman|tv goes back to the TV and wine, still not reached the perfect programming saturation point22:45
fiferboyHow many skinned knees were suffered at the hands of the roundabouts?22:45
RST38hfiferboy: In fact, given enough time, they will pull the whole thing out of the ground too22:46
lcuknot that many, but banged heads and puke cleanup was high22:46
* RST38h does not get the "was" part. These things are still in every second courtyard around here22:46
lcukanyway fiferboy now we all know what a roundabout is, can you give your kinetic list a little burst of energy every now and then to keep the list upto speed22:47
fiferboylcuk:  Oh, is that what you were getting at?  Yes.22:47
lcuklike you can with a roundabout.. :P22:47
fiferboyYou can.22:47
lcukok good lol22:47
fiferboylcuk:  I would have gone with a tetherball methaphor.22:48
lcuki just saw the code to reset motion when you start a stroke22:48
RST38hWill any improvement in Tear kinetic scrolling come out of this BTW?22:48
lcuk3 hours to explain "tetherball"?22:48
fiferboylcuk: Well, I guess if you get down to it, when you touch the screen while it is scrolling the widget will start to follow your finger again22:48
lcukRST38h, i would hope with all this discussion from all parties (no matter which framework) we will have a workable set of nice listviews in next device22:49
fiferboyBut for all practical purposes, if you are fast enough to start flicking it will accelerate again.22:49
RST38hlcuk: Only if Nokia accepts the code.22:49
lcukyeah i like to "strum" at the screen to keep it scrolling22:49
lcukits relaxing and i can just change direction again with inverted stroke22:50
fiferboyRST38h: lbt's work won't directly affect Tear, but if the developers want to look at the code and implement something similar they are free to.22:50
lcukRST38h, this is just discussion for everyone :)22:50
lbthi22:50
fiferboylbt: Hi, send you an email22:50
lcukgetting it into the minds of people is a good thing (TM)22:50
lcukhi lbt \o22:51
lcukRST38h, tear is webkit on gtk isnt it22:51
RST38hyea22:51
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RST38hfiferboy: Somebody has to tell Bundyo then22:52
lbtoops .. just looking at the backlog22:52
fiferboylbt: It is mostly about old playground equipment22:52
* RST38h has got a practical question22:52
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lbtso it seems22:52
RST38hI am running a program taking the whole system memory (32MB) and need to invoke amixer from it22:52
lcuklbt, which was your favorite from the playground22:53
lbtswings22:53
RST38hThere is a little bit of memory left for amixer, but Linux misses spawn*() functions22:53
lbtyou could jump off22:53
fiferboylbt: We still have those here122:53
lbtor try and go over the top22:53
lbtcool22:53
fiferboylbt: Oh, but you aren't allowed to jump off...22:53
lcukindeed22:53
lbtsafety-bars?22:53
lbtsigh22:53
StskeepsRST38h: dlopen it? :P22:54
RST38hAnd to do exec() I need to do fork() first and fork() fails because it is out of memory22:54
fiferboyNo, I think you are just discouraged from it.22:54
lcuklbt, we used to do this twisting thing and end up standing horizontally22:54
RST38hStskeeps: an executable???22:54
lbtoh, sod that then!22:54
lcukRST38h, no more memory == free some first22:54
RST38hlcuk: Can't22:54
StskeepsRST38h: it can be PIC/-shared and executable at same time, yeah22:54
lcukif its full then you have to find a way22:54
StskeepsRST38h: maemo-launcher uses this trick extensively22:54
lcukyou could try syncing with a wristwatch and using its memory as expansion22:54
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RST38hSts: hmmm...I doubt it will work =(22:55
StskeepsRST38h: why not call alsa directly then? :P22:56
RST38hSts: If I knew how to control ALSA DAC volume, I would22:58
lcukRST38h, i thought we had more than 32m anyway22:58
RST38hBut ALSA has got super messy APIs22:58
StskeepsRST38h: http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/HowTo_access_a_mixer_control22:58
RST38hSts: !!!!22:58
lbtfiferboy: thanks for the comments...I suspect it's mainl because of how I cheat the value()22:59
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RST38hSts: Except that some of these functions seem to crash on this Linux =)22:59
StskeepsRST38h: how can you expect amixer to work then? :P22:59
fiferboylbt: Do you think a setOvershoot function would solve some of the problems?22:59
lbtmmm sadly I think each scrollwidget needs to implement outOfBounds scrolling23:00
RST38hSts: amixer works somehow, probably using some other calls (there are lots to choose from)23:00
lbtso QScrollArea and freinds23:00
fiferboylbt: Why can't it be in qabstractslider?23:01
StskeepsRST38h: do i dare to ask what kind of machine you're doing it on? :P23:01
lbtwell, I could just put a function there... but it wouldn't fix the other issues23:02
lbtok, lets do setOvershoot() and work from there23:02
fiferboyIf you don't update the srollbar position in setOvershoot, just the value, that may help23:03
RST38hStskeeps: STMP3770 SoC from SigmaTel23:03
RST38hStskeeps: It actually has 64MB RAM installed but I can't make the second half work unfortunately23:03
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lbtwill try that... hmm, setValueOvershoot() I think23:04
RST38hStskeeps: Running EA Linux that is kinda half-baked and not supported by SigmaTel's new owner23:04
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* Stskeeps should really try out this OMAP2/maemo-dsp pulseaudio thing23:09
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lbtStskeeps: or fix Numpy Physics in Mer23:16
lardman|tvStskeeps: you got a link for that?23:16
Stskeepslardman|tv: http://gitorious.org/~elmarco/pulseaudio/pa-work/commit/d92f79b8efe591a4dc184ed803859bcdf7173b4623:16
lardman|tvcool23:17
lardman|tvsound in Mer then23:17
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Stskeepsyeah23:18
lardman|tvand some more clues as to the existing DSP tasks23:19
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guerbyhi, is there anything new on the rumoured next nokia internet tablet since http://thenokiablog.com/2008/09/20/next-nokia-internet-tablet-some-specs-revealed/23:20
guerby?23:20
guerbyI haven't followed nokia forums lately23:20
lardman|tvold news I guess, nothing new since the alpha SDK was released afaik23:21
fiferboylbt: I'm heading home now.  If you need something tested send it my way23:22
guerbylardman|tv, thx23:22
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lbtfiferboy: willdo  - ta23:22
guerbylardman|tv, I assume it should be out any time now with nokia pricing n810 a 249 euros23:22
guerbyand the sdk being out23:23
fiferboyHave a good weekend everyone23:23
lardman|tvguerby: we live in hope!23:24
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biiter_plz.. where do i turnoff that bar showing at the bottom indicating keyboard input case?23:28
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biiter_got it23:44
* RST38h would like to find ALSA people and kill them slowly23:45
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RST38hExcept that would probably require scaling an ivory tower first23:45
jaska:D23:47
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