IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2009-04-12

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GeneralAntilleslbt, any chance you could try to reduce the right click requirements in Shopper?00:35
GeneralAntillesThey're really obnoxious, especially since Qt doesn't seem to handle them well.00:35
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lbtwell, Qt should do the spinny spiral thing like gtk - it's on my todo list00:37
lbtbut I'm also happy for UI suggestions00:37
lbtright now I use it to edit/delete an item00:37
lbt(which I *very* rarely do)00:37
lbthow else could I do that - given I need to indicate which item needs acting on ?00:38
zakkmhave a right click "button" ?00:38
lbt?00:38
zakkma button that does the same "action" as right clicking ;p00:39
lbtpermanently on display on the UI?00:39
zakkmyeah00:39
zakkmso you click the item, click that then move and click whatever00:39
zakkmjust a thought lol00:39
lbtoh, so click the trash then pick an item?00:40
zakkmor that, but i was thinknig of a button that says edit00:40
zakkmand you click item.. then edit.. and the edit brings up the right click on the item00:40
qwerty12_N800if you only have two actions assigned to the right click, just add them as buttons next to the item00:40
zakkmis dropdown menu possibly on maemo/mer?00:41
zakkmnonmenu00:41
lbtthe main reason for gestures is that when you're wandering around the screen goes to sleep00:41
lbttouching it wakes it up00:41
GeneralAntilleslbt, can you fix the onscreen keyboard behavior so I don't have to edit things all the time?00:41
GeneralAntillesTake a cue from the iPhone would be my suggestion as far as avoiding right click.00:42
lbtand if I 'touch' the bin icon then it deletes them00:42
GeneralAntillesHave a little widget for edit/delete00:42
GeneralAntillesLook at how Canola does it.00:42
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zakkmlbt: put a "are you sure" ?00:42
lbtmmm00:42
zakkmshould have anyways, for deleting ?00:42
lbt'cos I just love waking the screen up and having "are you sure?"  <grin>00:43
zakkmunless theres undo00:43
lbtno, there's "long hold" which is a very deliberate action to get the delete menu00:43
zakkmwhy would that happen?00:44
zakkmwaking screen up and getting that00:44
zakkmscreen gets locked when it sleeps doesnt it00:44
lbt:D00:44
zakkmso your have to push buttons, then touchscreen works00:44
zakkmso how would that happen?00:44
lbtwhen you're wandering around the shop the screen goes to sleep00:44
zakkmshopper feature or normal maemo?00:44
lbtiit's dark so you don't know what you touch to wake it up00:45
lbtnormal00:45
zakkmbut it would lock touchscreen at same time, when display goes to sleep?00:45
zakkmor did i set that option myself?00:45
lbtand I used to find myself touching a tick box and 'selecting' an iterm00:45
lbtyourself00:45
zakkmoh00:45
zakkmthen yeah i guess00:45
lbtit's a pain when you're shopping :)00:45
zakkmlol00:46
lbt'cos you unlock it every 30 secs!00:46
lbtyup00:46
zakkmi dont go big shopping, work in a grocery store, so i pickup a few things when store is closed ;p00:46
zakkmno lines, already there, ;p00:46
zakkmyou guys use shopper while shopping?00:46
lbtfair enough - not your typical user though :)00:46
lbtyes - all the time00:47
lbtit's why I wrote it00:47
lbtGeneralAntilles: what do you mean by the "onscreen keyboard behavior so I don't have to edit things all the time"00:48
zakkmdo you guys use a case for your tablet?00:48
zakkmor just put it in your pocket00:48
lbtI have a case that clips on my belt00:49
zakkmi cant decide between nothing.. the "leather" case or this big case where you slide it in.. it covers it.. and clips it in00:49
zakkmhttp://www.pjbox.co.uk/pics/IPOD%20CASE3.JPG <-- like this but for nokia00:50
lbtI have a magnetic flap - easy to slide in/out but can't use it in the case00:50
zakkmdoesnt let you?00:51
lbtcheapo case - covers the screen00:51
zakkmheh00:51
zakkmthe big one i got leaves just the screen and buttons ;p00:51
zakkmand power00:52
lcuki used to use my fujitsu loox case00:52
lcukit had a velcro flap that when left open stuck it inside my pocket00:52
lcuki just slid the 810 in and out00:52
* lcuk mourns his loss00:53
zakkmsounds like the leather case,  but with velcro00:53
zakkmyou lost it?00:53
zakkmhttp://www.proporta.com/resizeimage.php?src=F03/i/aluleather_pocketloox720_book.jpg&w=270px&h=230px <-- thats what im using?00:53
lcukyeah, its been "misplaced" somewhere in the house00:53
qwerty12_N800lcuk: with the 720, I got no velcro :(00:53
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zakkmohh its different on the inside, nevermind00:53
lcuka fliptop like this https://www.foneplanet.com/images/Acc/seimens/SX-1%20Belt%20Case.jpg00:55
zakkmmy brother got me a ipaq 3650, the case slide in, fits.. but the leather one that coems with it is nicer00:55
RST38hlcuk: that is a reported attack site00:55
zakkmwhats a attack site?00:55
lcukrst?00:56
lbtfirefox tells me that too00:56
RST38hfoneplanet.com one00:56
lbthttp://safebrowsing.clients.google.com/safebrowsing/diagnostic?client=Iceweasel&hl=en-GB&site=https://www.foneplanet.com/images/Acc/seimens/SX-1BeltCase.jpg00:56
lbtOf the 1112 pages that we tested on the site over the past 90 days, 693 page(s) resulted in malicious software being downloaded and installed without user consent00:57
lcuko_O00:57
lbtOver the past 90 days, foneplanet.com appeared to function as an intermediary for the infection of 1 site(s) including phone-deal.co.uk/.00:57
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RST38hfun!00:57
lbtanyhow, thanks for the link !!00:57
zakkmGeneralAntilles: what do you use to encode for nokia?00:58
RST38hsleep time00:58
GeneralAntillestablet-encode00:58
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RST38hthat is mencoder, isn't it?00:58
zakkmdang, it gives me some mencoder error00:58
lbtyou ignoring me GA?00:58
lbtGeneralAntilles: what do you mean by the "onscreen keyboard behavior so I don't have to edit things all the time"00:58
zakkmtried handbrake, works alright, just thinking i could do better00:58
lbt<grin>00:58
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* lcuk has had that link for ages now in bookmarks (dont ask i keep all sorts)00:59
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GeneralAntilleslbt, sorry, elsewhere. :P01:11
lbtNP01:11
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GeneralAntillesWhen I press enter to close the finger keyboard it adds a newline at the end01:12
GeneralAntillesWhich really messes up the item display.01:12
lbtooh - mine doesn't01:12
lbtlong-click .... edit01:13
lbtEdit Item dialog?01:13
* lcuk offers more links01:14
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GeneralAntilleslbt, new item.01:26
lbtweird - I usually use the return key and have never seen that01:27
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lbtwhich Shopper version?01:27
GeneralAntillesLatest I guess.01:28
lbthmmm, I'll look - it's a Qt bug anyhow...01:28
GeneralAntilles0.5.701:28
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mattOk, n810 has a webcam, right? Is there a set of tools that I can use to play around with it?01:54
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lcukplayaround?01:54
mattlcuk: Yeah, just play around with the camera on the thing. Like, something I could stream it over http or something, so I could view it on my desktop or something.01:55
mattlcuk: and then have a "security" cam wherever I placed the n810.01:55
Corsachmhm, is there an ntp daemon for maemo?01:56
lcukgtalk has video streaming01:56
lcukits based on gstreamer01:56
lcukso whatever tools are available via that should work i believe01:56
mattlcuk: So I could install gtalk on the n810, and the gtalk on my desktop?01:56
lcukits the default internet call app i believe01:56
qwerty12_N800corsac, openntpd in extras01:56
lcukive only done it 810 to 81001:56
tank-manmatt, something like this? http://garage.maemo.org/projects/gstmjpg01:57
GeneralAntillesmatt, unfortunately Google doesn't implement their own codec on the GTalk client.01:57
matttank-man: I guess. But I just sorta realized I have no use for it anyways.01:58
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GeneralAntillesHey, johnx.02:16
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johnxhey GeneralAntilles02:20
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* zakkm starts to wonder why anyone would upgrade to OS2008 diablo ;p02:23
zakkmwhats the worse that can happen from installing apps from diablo repo in OS2007?02:24
johnxmaybe a reboot loop?02:24
tank-manprogram not work02:24
GeneralAntillesIt's not API compatible.02:24
GeneralAntilles70MHz is one reason.02:24
GeneralAntillesPowersaving that doesn't suck is another.02:24
johnxlibraries not from the stone age is another02:25
zakkmi love my os2007 :)02:25
GeneralAntillesAn application manager that works02:25
GeneralAntillesa browser that works02:26
zakkm?02:26
GeneralAntillesA default theme that isn't ugly as sin.02:26
zakkmbrowser has yet to crash on me02:26
johnxzakkm, good for you, but you won't find much help here :)02:26
GeneralAntillesCrashing isn't the only metric for "works"02:26
zakkmokay02:26
zakkmi have yet to come across a problem other than being slower.02:26
johnxand it's not microb vs opera it's tear vs opera :)02:26
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zakkmyeah i wanted to add tear repository, and try it in os2007 ;p02:27
johnxspoiler alert: no way in heck it will work02:27
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GeneralAntillesThey're not API compatible.02:27
GeneralAntillesFor the fortieth time.02:27
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zakkmlol02:27
zakkmwouldnt it get the updated stuff though02:27
zakkmlike update its dependencies, which would update that02:27
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johnxlet's pretend it magically got all the updates it needed: then you'd have diablo02:28
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Macerhaha02:54
Macertear? what happened to microb?02:54
Macerwhy do i care? i sent my n800 to sts haha02:55
Macerwas going to get an n810 when prices dropped02:55
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pupniko/ prost04:37
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zakkmwhy cant i insmod /mnt/initfs/lib/modules/current/ext2.ko <-- when it exists?05:04
zakkmit says unknown symbol in module (-1): no such file or diretory05:04
GAN800pfhbl05:04
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t3chb0t.05:08
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pupnikzakkm: happens to me when the module does not match the kernel version05:15
zakkmits a newly flashed install?05:15
zakkmodd05:15
zakkmtrying to get my OS2007 to clone to sd, but it doesnt like me ;p05:16
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pupnikzakkm: wasn't there something you needed to do first before that insmod?05:21
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pupniki forgot the howto05:21
zakkmhttp://examplified.net/guide/Nokia_770/Booting_from_MMC/05:21
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zakkmpupnik: i did number 1 to 1005:21
pupnik:(05:22
zakkm?05:22
pupniki haven't done that in 14 months or so05:22
zakkmme neither05:22
pupnikor no - something like that05:22
zakkmhttp://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8631 , thinking of just trying this one again, see if it will work this time05:23
zakkmhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card <--- ****05:23
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GeneralAntillesDon't expect things on OS2007 to work.05:25
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zakkmits a old guide though05:25
zakkmlike old method05:25
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zakkmim not trying the new mer/fanoush bootmenu, on OS2007 for instance05:25
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* b-man trys to boot Darwin on his N800 using qemu06:34
b-man(MacOS X base)06:35
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luke-jrb-man: sick :p06:43
zakkmlol06:45
zakkmif you get aqua working, id be impressed :P06:45
GeneralAntillesAqua is closed source.06:47
GeneralAntillesand Darwin isn't close enough to OS X for that to be feasible.06:47
zakkmthat just means he cant release it06:48
zakkmif hes running in qemu, he can use mac disc iso?"06:48
GeneralAntillesNot enough RAM06:48
zakkmi didnt mean usable06:48
GeneralAntillesNo, seriously, not enough RAM to boot.06:49
zakkmoh06:49
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pupnikhttp://www.pvv.org/~shane/stasj/pics/humor/4621.html  Finland kicks butt.07:56
zakkm:)08:17
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thuxmorning09:01
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ShasieHi all10:14
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RST38h"We hacked internally Clutter to work in N810 but due legal reasons we were unable to release needed OpenGL-ES drivers for N810."11:22
lbt:(11:24
RST38hLovely, isn't it?11:24
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GeneralAntillesThey're working on it.11:24
GeneralAntillesThe legal reasons are outlined on the driver justification talk page.11:25
lbtfor 810?11:25
RST38hNobody is working on N810 any more.11:25
GeneralAntilleslbt, for OMAP211:25
RST38hGAN: Ah, so there is still hope? =)11:25
GeneralAntillesRST38h, yeah, qgil made it public a few weeks ago on itT.11:25
* lbt has to go and lookup OMAP11:25
GeneralAntillesFor shame, lbt.11:25
GeneralAntillesI fixed up the OMAP wiki page recently, though, so you should be good to go. :P11:26
* lbt mutters about UML211:26
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* lbt can't find an omap wiki page...11:28
Pavlovthen you aren't trying very hard11:28
lbthttps://wiki.maemo.org/Special:Search?search=omap&go=Go11:29
Pavlovfirst hit for "omap wiki" on google is something useful11:29
lbtah, GeneralAntilles meant the OMAP wikipedia page.... he's usually very precise11:29
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GeneralAntillesb.m.o, lbt. :P11:29
lbtMR maemo.org, not Maemo.org .... <sigh>    so fuzzy....11:30
* lbt ducks11:30
Pavlovb.m.o is so confusing11:30
lbtyeah "bite me" has no "o"11:30
* lbt looks for the bmo wiki*pedia* page11:31
Pavlovmm, i was thinking of some other reasons11:31
GeneralAntillesbugs.maemo.org bugs.mozilla.org11:31
Pavlovbugzilla.mozilla.org, but yeah11:32
GeneralAntillesI usually just call it bugzilla for more ambiguity and confusion. ;)11:32
GeneralAntilleser, right11:32
* GeneralAntilles doesn't go there very often. :P11:32
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Stskeepsso any news from maemoland since i was offline for 5 hours? :P11:42
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GeneralAntillesYeah, we decided on a new uniform for Stskeeps.11:43
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Stskeepsoh boy.11:44
Stskeepslatex?11:44
Stskeeps:P11:44
GeneralAntillesYou'll find out at the Summit. :P11:44
Stskeepshehe11:44
Stskeepsdamn.. september will be a busy month11:45
Stskeepsmoving to poland, probable thesis exam, summit..11:45
RST38hGeneral: Given that he is moving to Poland, I have got an idea11:45
Stskeepsbringing vodka to summit? :P11:46
RST38hNo, no...11:46
RST38hhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_sign (see Polish Police chevron)11:46
RST38hOf course, the whole uniform should be black, with thin silvery stripes everywhere, but Darth Vader helmet is optional11:47
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reisiooooh, neat11:52
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aquatixgood moaning12:05
RST38hmoo aquatix12:06
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lbtThis is an interesting LWN article on vendors and Linux       http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/327878/722b0fef064e1779/   preaching to the converted but some succint comments and arguments in there13:40
wazdHello maemo13:41
Stskeepslbt: mm, mtc might find it interesting13:42
* lbt nods13:42
lbtcan you send me that config.log? or too hard?13:43
Stskeepsonly by re-creating the build, which i can13:43
Stskeepshttp://trac.tspre.orgÆ:8000 otherwise13:44
Stskeepshttp://trac.tspre.orgÆ:8000 otherwise13:44
Stskeeps..13:44
Stskeepshttp://trac.tspre.ororgÃ:8000 otherwise13:44
Stskeepswtf is with my terminal13:44
Stskeepsbloody ubuntu.13:44
Stskeepstrac . tspre .org port 8000 :P13:44
lbtheh13:44
GeneralAntillesIf Linux ever wants to succeed on the desktop, it needs a DE that doesn't totally suck.13:45
Stskeepsthis close to just installing mer on it13:45
lbtnah - need the internal detail of config.log.... nevermind13:46
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Stskeepsi'll push a build so you can get one, lbt13:46
lbt'k I'd just like to unblock glib...13:46
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Stskeepsmonitor trac.tspre.org builder for a glib log i guess13:48
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Stskeepsi started it with accelerated gcc13:48
lbtwhere is the build happening ? on trac.tspre.org ?13:49
lbtor your local vm13:49
Stskeepsa mer vmdk inside a machine at my work13:49
Stskeepsusing qemu-not-700713:49
Stskeepsbuild might be slow though cos of the bloody flowstops problem13:50
lbtI need the config.log from running ./configure    - yes? Which is only in the filesystem on that machine AFAIK13:50
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Stskeepsi'll have one for you soon13:52
lbtOK - ta13:52
lbtwasn't sure if you meant me to monitor a dir somewhere :) NP though13:53
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qwerty12_N800ello lcuk14:36
lcukhiya qwerty12_N800 \o14:40
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aquatixhahaha: http://failblog.org/2009/04/01/product-fail/14:52
RST38hIt's bacon!14:54
RST38hIt is April 1st post though14:55
RST38hThis one is way better though: http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/fail-owned-headline-fail.jpg?w=500&h=28214:56
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lopzhola15:11
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wazdhttp://s54.radikal.ru/i144/0904/a3/ba07f472fc19.jpg <- Mer15:17
wazdMer's stylus kb :)15:17
lbthow well does it work when you rotate the screen15:18
wazdlbt: well, that's special mode for portrait input15:18
wazdlbt: it will have another layout for landscape15:19
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lbtjust mentioning it as the maemo one is a bit poor15:19
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wazdlbt: hmm, why so?15:40
aquatixwazd: wow, that statusbar looks great15:41
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* aquatix afk again :)15:41
aquatixciao15:41
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b-mani managed to get FreeBSD and FreeDOS booted in Mer with qemu on my tablet :D18:42
b-manhttp://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/mer/screenshots/screenshot01.png18:42
b-manhttp://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/mer/screenshots/screenshot00.png18:42
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Stskeepscrazy :P18:43
b-manXD18:43
* b-man also was successful with NITdroid emmulation with omap2 support18:44
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b-mani could literary run Mer in Mer XD18:45
Stskeepsyeah, but that's just vaguely insane :P18:45
Stskeepsgood to know it works though18:45
b-manXD18:45
* b-man admits that he can be a bit crazy XD18:46
b-mani'm just too curious for my own good ;)18:47
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lakinAre there any good resources for how to setup the SDL main screen and blit to it for optimal performance with the n810?19:45
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lakinhttp://maemo.org/community/wiki/gamedevelopment/ redirects to the main wiki page. :/19:48
lakinhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Game_development works tho19:50
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GeneralAntillesUI discussions are so much fun.20:04
lcukwhere at this time gan20:04
GeneralAntillesitT, as usual.20:04
lcukheh20:05
lcuki made a toolbar seedling :) -> http://liqbase.net/liq.20090412_170810.lib.scr.png20:05
GeneralAntillesThey always come down to everybody's got an opinion (just like assholes) and 10 other assumptions about how they think other people do or should use their devices.20:05
GeneralAntillesI don't get what the end-of-the-world fuss is over the stylus.20:05
lcukyou are talking to the wrong person20:06
GeneralAntillesIt's as if they think Nokia's going to magically disallow their silly desktop ports.20:06
* Stskeeps will be happy as long as he can run Mer on it.20:06
GeneralAntillesIf the stylus really were going away, they wouldn't be using a resistive panel. ;)20:06
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lcukthey havent got a defined stylus on the 97 have they20:06
lcukits a plectrum20:07
glass5800 has a stylus. also ships with a plek20:07
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lcukive only seen the plectrum (nice as it is) its not quite the same for writing with20:08
glassthe stylus is embedded in the back, slides out(on 5800)20:08
GeneralAntillesReally, we just need a stupid product announcement so these people will STFU and go on to bitching about concrete things.20:09
* lbt reaches into the air, grabs a passing pigeon and plucks a quill to use as a stylus...20:09
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GeneralAntillesI like how people keep proposing the context-sensitive UI.20:09
GeneralAntillesWhat a train wreck.20:09
lcuki 100% agree there gan20:10
GeneralAntillesThat's when you know you can throw their opinion out with the rest of the garbage. ;)20:10
lcuki have nothing against a touch friendly ui - it works nicely with or without stylus20:10
LinuxCodelcuk, you dont ride by bus often do you ?20:11
LinuxCode;-p20:11
LinuxCodetravel20:11
LinuxCode-ride20:11
lcukLinuxCode, what does that matter - i did more notes on the plane than at any other time20:11
LinuxCodeplane = smooth20:11
LinuxCodebus = bumpy20:12
GeneralAntillesI wonder how these people manage to use their devices with a stylus while walking around.20:12
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, haha20:12
LinuxCodeeither way, any of this is pointless20:12
LinuxCodenobody here makes the decisions20:12
mavhcwho uses a device whilst walking?20:12
LinuxCodemavhc, me ?20:12
GeneralAntillesmavhc, me, but not with a stylus.20:12
mavhcmore hardware buttons is better, so I can pause/jump back 10 seconds etc my audio files without having to unlock, use the touchscreen, lock20:13
LinuxCodeall I know is, on the bus the stylus is useful20:13
glassGeneralAntilles: 5800 is quite usable with fingers only20:13
LinuxCodeotherwise it doesnt really matter too much20:13
VDVsxI use my phone when I'm riding my bike :)20:13
glassi use it in the bus for reading stuff20:14
GeneralAntillesglass, as is my N800.20:14
LinuxCodeI hope the follow on model will still have a keybaord20:14
LinuxCodeand I hope this time it will have the pipe symbol readily available20:14
glassalso the touchscreen reacts even if you have gloves on, which is handy if it's subzero outside..20:14
lcukmedia player == touch friendly == good whilst walking20:14
lcuktaking notes == not something you do whilst walking, but usually you use a pen20:14
LinuxCodethat was my only beef with the n81020:14
LinuxCodehad to dump a pipe symbol into the ui20:15
mavhcnone of the media players are that touch friendly, they all use most of the screen for pointless cover art, and then put the pause button right next to the skip track button, and have no rewind 10 seconds button20:15
VDVsxglass, if the 5800 had a proper kinetic scroll will be 100 % usable only with finger's, IMO20:16
LinuxCode5800 use mameo ?20:16
VDVsxs6020:17
LinuxCodeerrm so ehhh20:17
mavhcI generally use canola, at least it has the buttons near the edge of the screen that comes first out of the case20:17
LinuxCodenvm20:17
LinuxCodeI was under the impression we were talking about the next N8xx version20:17
GeneralAntillesmavhc, powerlaunch for hardware control.20:17
LinuxCodeI just hope it will be out soon, I need a mobile replacement20:18
LinuxCodemine doesnt cut it anymore20:18
mavhcI did try to use my phone as a bluetooth keyboard to control it, but it didn't work as the keys were locked, any way around that?20:18
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glassVDVsx: the browser part sucks a bit, i hope they get it better20:19
GeneralAntillesmavhc, powerlaunch lets you use the hardware keys for input while locked.20:20
VDVsxglass, well at least is better than the n8x0 browser in terms of crashes and flash support, but I only use it a bit :)20:21
mavhcI'll have a look, thanks20:21
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VDVsxglass, I only have complains about the finger scrolling in the main menus, but I don't use the phone as my primary phone :P20:22
LinuxCodespeaking of flash20:28
LinuxCodewhy havent we seen an update for the browser or flash ?20:28
LinuxCodebbc makes my thing slow down and then complain20:28
Stskeepscos noone cares about diablo anymore? :P20:28
LinuxCodethe official flah image is still diablo though isnt it ?20:29
GeneralAntillesAccording to Mara, they all left Diablo land to work on Fremantle then "forgot the keys" so they can't get back in.20:32
GeneralAntillesMore Nokia retardation, business as usual.20:32
GeneralAntillesRanting gets you nowhere, being reasonable gets you nowhere, better to look to the future and move on.20:32
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, Fremantle is stable-ish ?20:32
GeneralAntillesNot even close20:33
LinuxCodei stick to diablo then20:33
GeneralAntillesStill in alpha20:33
LinuxCode;-}20:33
LinuxCodekk20:33
* GeneralAntilles sighs.20:33
LinuxCodewhy sigh ? hehe20:33
LinuxCodeyou want me to try fremantle ?20:33
LinuxCode;-}20:34
GeneralAntillesBecause I'm tired of Nokia's nonsense.20:34
LinuxCodeahh ok20:34
LinuxCodeohh btw guys, any of you use gpesynd ?20:34
LinuxCodeweirdly I get an error with the calendar in msynctool20:35
GeneralAntillesI'm wondering who I need to stab repeatedly to get any sort of useful communication on this https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=384520:35
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: bribing whoever runs the update repositories20:36
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, sounds like a lot of disorganization20:36
LinuxCodeat least the thread reads that way20:37
LinuxCode;-|20:37
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* GeneralAntilles cooks up an idea for a new blog post series.20:37
Stskeeps"Community and vendor interaction"? :P20:38
lcukGeneralAntilles, this change requires all people coordinate and make the changes together.  what happens if people just start pushing packages using the new categories? does it break?20:38
GeneralAntilles"How Nokia Fucked the Community"20:38
LinuxCodemaybe its time to fork an off-spring of maemo20:38
GeneralAntillesIt'll have daily updates.20:38
LinuxCodeGeneralAntilles, haha20:38
GeneralAntilleslcuk, Nokia looks bad.20:38
lcuknot really, advertise the new categories, get package maintainers themselves to use them and THEN nokia looks bad20:39
lcukbut at the moment, changing them does nothing for nobody20:39
GeneralAntillesI was trying to give them the benefit of the doubt and not offload that ugly customer experience onto Nokia20:39
GeneralAntillesBut it looks like that wasn't the correct choice20:39
GeneralAntillesYes, really.20:39
GeneralAntillesWhat does a customer think when they see a bunch of ugly unlocalized categories in the application manager?20:40
lcukwhat wasnt? a list of names that ALL package maintainers must follow20:40
lcukthis is entire community change20:40
GeneralAntillesThey sure aint blaming developers.20:40
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lcukthey click all like everyone else20:40
GeneralAntillesNot telling package developers to make the change before Nokia shipped the necessary updates.20:40
lcuki never know what category is what and never will do20:40
GeneralAntilleslcuk, experienced people, perhaps, but the vast majority of average tablet users, no.20:41
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GeneralAntillesWhere's jeremiah when you need him?20:41
lcukso - lets suppose nokia changed them - do existing packages fall into them, OR, do things end up in the general catchall?20:41
lcukbecause the packages themselves dont match20:42
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sampohello... is there some fix for slow fremanlte UI on xephyr with intel driver?20:42
GeneralAntilleslcuk, you really didn't pay much attention while this was decided, eh?20:42
GeneralAntillesNon-valid categories get tossed into "Other"20:42
GeneralAntillesValid categories get pretty, localized strings.20:42
lcukso - will most current packages end up in all?20:43
lcuk"other" sorry20:43
GeneralAntillesYes, because I was telling developers to stick with the current valid list until Nokia updated h-a-m.20:43
lcukfacepalm20:43
* qwerty12 hasn't been sticking with the current list20:44
lcukso bitching at nokia to change something which at the moment will make things worse is good?20:44
GeneralAntilleslcuk, oh, another silly lcuk discussion.20:44
* GeneralAntilles is totally not in the mood.20:44
GeneralAntillesIt's a chicken and the egg problem.20:44
GeneralAntillesSomething has to change.20:44
GeneralAntillesI'd like to avoid doubling the number of useless categories in the mean time, though.20:45
lcukno its not - put bugs against packages in the wrong places20:45
lcukfor all packages20:45
GeneralAntillesThen people slowly update it and the category list gets 10 times less useful in the mean time.20:46
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, don't be silly.20:46
GeneralAntillesPlease.20:46
lcukno, then we have ammunition to push nokia to change their end20:46
lcukat the moment, it will make it worse20:46
* GeneralAntilles sighs.20:46
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GeneralAntillesI didn't think we needed that ammunition.20:47
lcuksampo, ive not found a fix for it20:47
GeneralAntillesBecause I figured on Nokia being reasonable.20:47
lcuki thought the packaging list changes were to be pushed to package builders themselves20:47
GeneralAntillesUnfortunately that's not the case, so now you're suggesting I do what I just said I was going to do 5 minutes ago? :P20:47
sampolcuk: so with intel driver it is basically impossible to test anything on emulator ?20:48
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GeneralAntillesIt's a client-side change.20:48
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GeneralAntillesSomebody want to go poke _marcell_ to update r.m.o?20:50
lcuksampo, ymmv, ive seen it running at fullspeed on different hardware20:50
sampoi have nvidia on my desktop but my laptop has intel gma450020:53
lcukGeneralAntilles, what if there was a way to automatically fixup the packages in extras to account for the changes.  some sort of intermediate list to expidite a transition?  essentially a "packagename,category" list which would be looked up in place of the category in the package itself20:53
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GeneralAntillesThen we'd have to replace the maintainer lines on all those packages with autobuilder@maemo.org20:54
lcuki do want your changes to go through, but i cannot see it being a benefit at the start20:54
GeneralAntillesIt's generally considered bad form to play with other people's packages.20:54
lcukhow about we kept this outside the packages themselves20:54
lcukjust a small db20:54
GeneralAntillesIt'll be an immediate benefit20:54
GeneralAntillesBecause the category list wont like like hell.20:54
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lcuksure it will get out of sync quickly, but it will catch all the stale packages20:54
GeneralAntillesHow can it be outside the package?20:54
GeneralAntillesThen you're back to a h-a-m hack.20:55
lcukyou need to hack h-a-m anyway dont you20:55
GeneralAntillesThat's the point though20:56
GeneralAntillesThere's no hacking h-a-m unless Nokia ships the hacks.20:56
GeneralAntillesSo whatever we do, we're stuck waiting for Nokia.20:56
lcukbut the change suggested so far does no good short term20:56
GeneralAntillesAny transitional stuff is pointless and likely to be more harmful in the longterm than it is beneficial in the short.20:56
GeneralAntillesHardly20:56
GeneralAntillesThe h-a-m patches immediately cleans up the category list.20:57
GeneralAntillesand encourages maintainers to get their packages out of Other.20:57
Stskeepsand we can't ship an overriding h-a-m through extras can we?20:57
lcukagreed on motivation20:57
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lcuko_O thats an idea lol20:58
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, not unless you want  to ruin updates for 95% of tablet users out there.20:58
GeneralAntillesNo, it's not.20:58
GeneralAntillesWe can't ship updates to bundled stuff without breaking the whole bundle.20:58
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Stskeepstrue21:00
lcukwe could rename it p-o-r-k :D21:00
lcuktechnically, theres nothing stopping an alternative package manager gaining traction21:00
lcukjust like in other distros a new one emerges which solves the problems of the existing one21:00
GeneralAntillesExcept that that would be evil21:01
GeneralAntillesand user-hostile21:01
lcukof course it wouldnt21:01
GeneralAntillesYou're not going to get all users to switch managers21:03
GeneralAntillesso you're back to square one again with the categories.21:03
* GeneralAntilles mutters about Tear not being in Extras.21:03
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GeneralAntillesNot so impressed with the current release after all the hype.21:09
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: you're aware that the categories are in fact, in the fremantle HAM though?21:10
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, yes, which is almost worse.21:10
GeneralAntillesSince maintainers now have to ship two separate sets if they want localized categories in both.21:10
Stskeepsah21:10
GeneralAntillesTear lies about about:blank21:11
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lcukwhat do the categories on maemo.org do in different countries?21:12
lcukhttp://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/21:12
lcukare they shown in same way for everyone?21:12
GeneralAntillesmaemo.org is not localized.21:12
lcukbut people have categorised their apps - seperate from the package21:12
GeneralAntillesSo?21:13
lcukand somewhere on the maemo.org server is a list of packagename and category?21:13
GeneralAntillesNo.21:13
lcukyes21:13
GeneralAntillesYou'd have to patch apt.21:13
lcukits in the database21:13
GeneralAntillesThis proposal isn't any different from the one you made 20 minutes ago.21:13
lcukbut i wouldnt have to patch 9000 individual packages21:13
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GeneralAntillesYou don't have to patch other people's packages.21:14
lcukno, im following through on that proposal and thinking about the issues ;)21:14
GeneralAntilleslcuk, this has been thought about and discussed quite a lot.21:14
lcukand so far i can see a way to automatically categorize all listed packages in maemo in the correct way21:14
lcukcan you?21:14
GeneralAntillesI know you weren't there for it, but we've already been through all of these ideas. :)21:14
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qwerty12_N800the real problem is nokia sitting on their asses wrt diablo21:16
qwerty12_N800suggestions are nice, but if they aren't gonna get up, what can we do?21:16
lcukmake sure mer is right :)21:17
lcukmer is about reconstructing maemo in the way the community expects.21:17
zakkmwooh :)21:20
RST38hnothing we can do21:21
RST38hnot until becomes a fully functional replacement21:21
* zakkm thinks most users still runs the default stuff + some stuff in extras21:23
lcuki wouldv thought nokia wouldnt be so dumb as to ignore improvments made in mer - if they are compatible with diablo21:23
RST38hs//mer21:23
zakkmwhen i bought my nokia n800, the guy didnt reflash it, and he still had OS200721:23
lcukso if its shown to work there ..21:23
RST38hlcuk: you misunderstand21:23
zakkmeven though diablo was at like 36-_21:23
RST38hlcuk: Nokia does not care about improvements to software by third parties21:24
ShadowJK_I bought my N800 second hand a few weeks ago, the guy had said it was flashed to latest OS. I found it had chinook :)21:24
RST38hlcuk: In fact, it does not even care about its own software, as long as the hardware running it no longer sells21:24
RST38hlcuk: The above statements are pretty much axioms from which you can deduce a lots of Nokia behavior21:25
lcukit was (principally) nokia engineers who put together the HE of the upgrades21:25
RST38hengineers != nokia21:25
RST38hA few guys may help out the users a bit, if it is ot too much time and their manager agrees21:26
lcukshow those same people tangible benefits which work on this device and the same should occur21:26
zakkmShadowJK_: curious, how much did you pay?21:26
lcukuptil now the mod that sparked this debate would be mostly futile21:26
ShadowJK_zakkm, iirc 90€ (shipping included)21:27
RST38hlcuk: They are all working on Fremantle according to management (qgil)21:27
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lcukyes, and so they should - thats their job21:27
zakkmShadowJK_: heh i paid the exact same, but the guy came to where i work21:27
RST38hexactly21:28
lcukright now theres no benefit to diving back into code21:28
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qwerty12_N800ello johnx21:28
mavhcGeneralAntilles: how do I get it out of pocket mode?21:28
Stskeeps'lo johnx21:29
GeneralAntillesmavhc, don't remember.21:29
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800 might be able to help, though.21:29
johnxallo all21:29
johnxgot my zaurus working again :D21:29
Stskeepswoo :)21:29
johnxand have a reasonable x server for it21:30
lcukheh hello johnx, took almost a month to get it working!21:30
johnxshould probably do some package cleanup then push it :)21:30
johnxlcuk: heh. there were some distractions :P21:30
GeneralAntillesjohnx, so that's what's been sapping up all of your time, eh? ;)21:30
lcukas always, hope all is well21:30
qwerty12_N800mahvc, it got messed up somewhere along the versions... i keep mashing buttons until the power menu comes up, press home & hit reload powerlaunch. it's retarded, i know...21:31
johnxGeneralAntilles: yeah, the moving was really no big thing (<- horrible lies)21:31
Stskeepsjohnx: saw the danish weekend stuff btw?21:31
johnxStskeeps: I did. that's at the end of tthis month?21:31
Stskeepsjohnx: may21:31
johnxaaaah, then I'll call it a firm maybe :)21:32
mavhcthanks qwerty12_N800, is there a list of what the default settings are?21:32
qwerty12_N800it's a little sparse on docs, i'd just recommend to look at the raw config files in /etc/powerlaunch21:33
johnxlcuk: yup. going pretty well. i can take a breath again before jumping back into the fray.21:34
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lcukjohnx :) libliqbase is on a git server now21:36
lcuklet me know if you wanna have a play21:36
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johnxI think I'm good with what I've bitten off so far o_o;21:38
Stskeepsjohnx: *nod* basically if you want to see if you can get sponsorship, just follow instructions in http://internettablettalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=278371&postcount=7 - probably better to do sooner than later according to the nokians :P21:38
lcukoh i know that feeling21:39
* GeneralAntilles sips and shudders.21:40
GeneralAntillesApparently these people don't know the meaning of too much soy.21:40
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Stskeepsjohnx: #mer , btw21:45
johnxStskeeps: ah, right. on my zaurus here :)21:46
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, ping?23:17
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ProteousPING MOFO23:22
* Proteous ate too many chocolate bunnies23:22
GeneralAntillesI wonder how close Nokia's getting to the beta23:23
GeneralAntillesThey seem to have largely gone quiet.23:23
Proteousthat's cause I haxored their gibson23:23
Proteousyou know, the big iron23:23
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ProteousI went around to some low security systems and used the backdoor23:23
Proteousso to speak23:24
Proteousgot a little help from Joey23:24
GeneralAntillesGibson Guitar? What, you set it to play the first 4 bars of Smoke on the Water over and over?23:24
Proteoushe has experience with such things23:24
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