IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2006-11-30

Veggentbb: Is DISPLAY set there?00:00
|tbb|export PATH DISPLAY LESS TERM PS1 PS200:00
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Veggenoh, that's not really setting it.00:01
|tbb|so do i have to set it there?00:03
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minrablah, another crash..00:04
Veggentbb: No, ssh should do it for you. You'll just need to make sure logging in doesn't overwrite it :)00:05
Veggenbut you could try "export DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 before running the X-command.00:05
Veggenjust to check if that might be the problem.00:06
Veggenwhat does netstat -an | grep LISTEN | grep 60 say, btw?00:06
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|tbb|tcp        0      0 0.0.0.0:6000            0.0.0.0:*               LISTEN00:08
|tbb|start-sshd00:09
|tbb|kdialog: cannot connect to X server localhost:10.000:09
|tbb|after i run the export command00:10
Veggenoh, hum. does the box run X locallly, or no X?00:10
|tbb|?00:10
Veggenwhat does that netstat command say if you exit out of the ssh, and ssh back in without -X argument ?00:10
Veggenyou ssh from the 770, right? Does the 770 have an xauth command?00:12
|tbb|tcp        0      0 127.0.0.1:6010          0.0.0.0:*               LISTEN00:12
|tbb|first right! second no it doesnt have00:13
Veggenoh. that should be the X-forwarding. try with the export DISPLAY=localhost:10.0 and then start-sshd ?00:13
minraman, the xchat package has some serious user interface issues.... for example, after using tab to complete a nicknamee, you have to re-click the text input field to continue typing00:14
|tbb|slax ~ # export DISPLAY=localhost:10.000:14
|tbb|slax ~ # start-sshd00:14
|tbb|kdialog: cannot connect to X server localhost:10.000:14
Veggentbb: think you might need xbase-clients on the 770.00:15
|tbb|this msg appear on the server00:16
|tbb|i started the sshd on the server not on the 77000:16
Veggentbb: sure. but xauth on the client is supposed to do magic with xauth on the server.00:16
Veggenxauth on the client sends some security info to xauth on the server.00:17
|tbb|so what i have to do00:17
Veggentry installing xbase-clients on the 770?00:17
|tbb|where to find them?00:17
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|tbb|i wonder no one got same problems like me00:18
Veggenwhat does the start-sshd actually do?00:23
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|tbb|same what i posted before00:29
|tbb|kdialog: cannot connect to X server localhost:10.000:30
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minrai hope i will someday be as fit as you guys00:34
minrado you people use unionfs or something to spread the root filesystem onto a rs-mmc card?00:34
TakI don't have any need to do so00:35
minrais there a website that describes what the 870 will do?00:40
bhimaminra: Probably. Do you have access to Nokia's internal, private developer pages?00:42
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w30I installed xterminal and the ncurses dependencys and I have a backspace problem in xterm (not Nokia). the backspace key gives me a faint square as the cursor advances even though it actually backspacing in the program. You have to count the faint squares and subtract to know what is going on. Can someone help on this problem?00:51
Veggen|tbb| ok, good :)00:52
|tbb|very good00:52
minrabhima i have a valid serial number... never used it00:56
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arjhi01:38
arjwhat IM program is everyone using? :)01:39
pokute_irssi here.01:39
arjI meant for msn/jabber01:39
pokute_Everyone doesn't use msn/jabber01:39
|tbb|g00d nite all01:39
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arj:)01:40
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timelessis the 770's chat app not compatible?01:41
arjit only understands jabber as far as I know?01:41
arjI have another question: can anyone recommend a good calendar program?01:43
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timelesscalendar.google.com01:45
timelessoh, did you mean one that works on the 770?01:45
arjyeah01:45
arjI use google's too01:45
arjbut it doesn't work all that well on 770 ;-)01:46
timelessiirc it works in minimo01:47
timelessi suppose i could roll dice and find out01:47
arjI tried01:47
arjit works ok, but one can't enter new appoinments into it01:48
arjand minimo is really buggy :(01:48
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arjone more, is the maemo 2.1 release only meant for developers or is the idea that an end user should install it also?01:52
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vanksihttp://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2341 i have that same exact error except i'm using Maemo_Dev_Platform_v2.1_i386-rootstrap.tgz02:04
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vanksiany ideas how to fix it?02:06
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RocketHPCSo, everyone eagerly awaiting Canola?02:52
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pokute_Hmm... Herring...03:58
RocketHPCHmm... Canola04:08
RocketHPCLots of big news today04:08
RocketHPCLooks like Nokia is getting serious about finishing off the software environment for the 87004:09
timelesshow so?04:09
RocketHPCWell, isn't Herring a forked stabilization branch which is intended as the basis for Maemo 3.0?04:10
timelessi dunno :)04:10
RocketHPCIt is supposed to be feature complete now, so it is "just" a matter of bug squashing/polishing at this point04:11
RocketHPCWith the latest leaked pictures, the 870 is looking pretty close to final hardware04:12
RocketHPCYou have seen the pictures, right?04:13
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RocketHPChttp://www.engadget.com/2006/11/28/a-few-more-spy-shots-of-nokias-870-internet-tablet/04:13
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pokute_hmm, hadn't seen these.04:21
RocketHPCIt sure has the look of production hardware04:22
pokute_rumours say 180megs of mem. good good.04:22
timelessam i the only one who gets confused when people talk about 'memory'?04:22
RocketHPCI think it probably means 64 MB of flash and 128 MB of ram04:23
RocketHPCor something like that04:23
RocketHPCThey should definitely discriminate between storage and execution memory04:23
timelessand what does beta hardware look like?04:23
timelessmust be made by a cell phone vendor?04:24
pokute_beta hardware?04:24
pokute_Well, there haven't been any images of the development boards that I've seen, but there are those elusive white 770s. :-)04:25
timelesswell, what's the opposite of production hardware?04:25
RocketHPCprototype04:25
RocketHPCAll the recent pictures I have seen have been self-same04:25
pokute_For some reason, I have a feeling that apart from devboards, the protos look a LOT like production units.04:26
RocketHPCIt is a subjective thing, but it looks like they have dotted all the i's and crossd all the t's04:26
RocketHPCIt also closely matches their fcc submission04:28
pokute_http://synthesize.us/Maemo/HTTP_User-Agents <- oooh... interesting. :-)04:29
RocketHPCYeah, info about both the processor and web browser04:31
RocketHPCThe FPU in the arm6 should allow for a lot of applications to be ported that couldn't be before04:32
pokute_FPU - sounds like they're spoiling us. :-)04:33
RocketHPCI am excited, it seems like they have integrated a lot of nice touches into the new design04:34
pokute_Too bad it will probably be a long while until I can buy one...04:35
RocketHPCI really like the new integrated stand and curved back04:35
pokute_As it's usual for Nokia to announce stuff 3-6 months before they release it.04:35
pokute_And they haven't even announced this one.04:35
RocketHPCWell, the leaks have come from multiple sources inside the company04:36
RocketHPCI wouldn't be surprised if this is their quasi-official way of trying to produce buzz04:36
timelesshow can you tell?04:36
pokute_I was sort of surprised on how long it took for 770 info to start leaking into net. :-)04:36
RocketHPChow can I tell what?04:37
timelessthat there's more than one leak source04:37
RocketHPCWell, it may be one leak source posting under different pseudonyms, I guess04:38
RocketHPCbut the pictures definitely came from different cameras/photographers04:38
timelesswhere the pictures encoded w/ camera ids?04:39
timelesss/h//04:39
RocketHPCexif04:39
RocketHPCThe first pictures were taken with a cameraphone by someone that obviously didn't know beans about photography04:39
timelessinteresting..04:39
RocketHPCThe recent pictures are from a real digicam and have much better composition, lighting, etc.04:40
pokute_RocketHPC: When leaking pictures, it doesn't matter much what the quality is. :-)04:40
timelessdoes nokia traditionally fire leakers?04:40
RocketHPCNo clue04:41
RocketHPCI think "leaks" have become a quasi-official way for many companies to create buzz04:41
RocketHPCA lot of companies have been caught at astro-turfing04:41
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timelessi thought the quasi-official way was to hire bloggers04:42
timelessastro-turfing ?04:42
RocketHPCastroturf = artificial grass roots marketing04:42
pokute_Heh. First time I hear the long explanation, tho I was able to sort of figure out what it meant earlier. :-)04:43
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Milhouseas for the 3-4 month release estimate, where a phone is concerned it can be announced by nokia then take 3-4 months for the network operators to validate/test the phone... with the non-phone based "870" I hope it can be brought to market far more quickly...04:46
pokute_770 didn't go so well. :-)04:46
Milhousefirst version :)04:47
Milhouseactually, was the 770 late?04:47
Milhousei got mine in november 05 - when was it due (can't remember exactly, was it Q3 or Q4?)04:48
pokute_"Shipping in the third quarter" <- announced on may04:48
pokute_Started shipping on November 3rd.04:49
Milhouseyeah, so 1 month late/.04:49
RocketHPCI kinda like the way Apple does things - announcing a product on the date that it is ready to ship04:49
RocketHPCIt must get them some impulse buyers that they wouldn't normally make a sale on if the product hit the streets 3 months after an announcement04:50
RocketHPC"Paper" launches really piss me off04:50
Milhousei guess with the involvement of maemo and the open source community that would have been impossible for the 770, but mostly possible with the 870 assuming the changes are mostly to nokia maintained code04:50
Milhousei am concerned the rumours about the 870 could result in the "osborne effect"04:50
pokute_At least 770 wasn't a 7700 in release schedule. :-)04:50
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timelessosborne effect?04:51
pokute_7710, I mean04:51
timeless7700?04:51
timeless7710?04:51
pokute_:-)04:51
timelesswhat are those?04:51
Milhouseosborne - pre announce a new product, everyone stops buying the existing product in anticipation leaving the manufacturer with vast quantities of unsold stock resulting in bankcruptcy04:52
Takheh04:52
TakI don't think unsold 770 stock wil bankrupt nokia04:52
timelessit sure won't help nokia04:52
Milhouseme neither, but pre announcing any new product probably has an adverse effect on sales of the current device'04:53
pokute_Milhouse: It's not so bad with 770, as it might generate buzz with people to make new applications.04:53
RocketHPCThey have apparently been ramping up advertising of the 770 too, which makes me suspect they are trying to clear inventory prior to any announcement04:53
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Milhousetrue, and i doubt sales of the 770 have been stellar anyway! :)04:54
timelesswhy didn't you buy two? :|04:54
Milhousei'm waiting for the 870 dude!!!04:54
Milhouse:)04:54
timelessyou osborne...04:54
Milhousenew 0.16.8-1 minimo in the app manager04:56
Milhousestill no canola :(04:56
pokute_Argh. Second time that I download a zipped up game trailer and it ends up being in quicktime format...04:56
RocketHPCSounds like Antonio is really trying to fully hildonize Minimo in the near future04:58
timelesshow can you tell?04:59
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RocketHPCIt is on his todo list on his blog05:00
meredyddHey05:00
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meredyddJust wondering, but I don't suppose anyone has got a nested X server running on the 770?05:01
RocketHPChttp://tonikitoo.blogspot.com/05:01
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meredyddHildonising apps is a bit of a pain - it would be good if I could also just run some stuff "raw", with icewm or something.05:02
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RocketHPCYeah, I think that would be desireable too05:02
RocketHPCRight now there is just too much dev work to hildonize every app that people want to run05:03
meredyddI was quite impressed by the 770, and I've liked the cachet of a "shell in my pocket"05:03
meredyddbut the apps available are...yeah.05:03
meredyddThis is why there are two things I want to do - build a working J2ME runtime, so we can use all those apps written for mobile phones05:03
meredyddand get a working nested X server, so we can use all those apps written for Plain Old X.05:03
Milhouse nokia don't seem too keen on getting a JVM up and running unfortunately05:04
meredyddYeah, it's a pain. I have a feeling it may be to do with a desire to Do It Right, and use the Jazelle05:04
timelesswhat leads you to that conclusion?05:04
Milhousewe would need their involvement to utilise the jazelle extensions05:04
meredyddwhich, from what I gather, is deeply nontrivial with Linux05:04
Milhousenokia pretty much stated that on the dev mailing list05:05
RocketHPCI don't think they have the dev time to make the 770 everything to all people05:05
meredyddyep.05:05
Milhousedeeply non-documented, more like05:05
RocketHPCIt would be nice to have Java and better Flash05:05
timelesswhat else is on your 'would be nice' list?05:05
meredyddI still think, though, that it's making a strategic mistake to wall users in with this idiosyncratic UI paradigm05:05
RocketHPCmy main two pet peaves are official bluetooth keyboard support and a better email application05:06
meredyddAs far as I can see, there are only three ways out of this:05:06
RocketHPCIt is a Internet Tablet for Christ's sake. It should do email WELL05:06
Milhousedepends on who nokia see as their main end user - geeks, or casual mobile web users?05:06
pokute_RocketHPC: Have you followed tinymail?05:06
meredydd1) Build enough apps yourself, within N or the dev community, to make it worthwhile as an independent platform05:06
Milhousei would agree that better bluetooth support from nokia as standard is required05:07
meredyddMilhouse: Well, if it's geeks, we need more software, and if it's end users, we'd need little things like an email client that doesn't provoke vomiting in my non-techie friends :P05:07
timelessgmail works well for me on my 770 ...05:07
Milhousewould tend to agree meredydd, but do nokia have the resources to satisfy both camps?05:07
RocketHPCNo, tell me about tinymail, pokute05:07
meredyddReally, timeless? Which firmware build are you on? Mine had nasty problems with the Javascript, and needed the URL tweaking to explicitly state ?ui=html before it would work.05:08
meredyddMilhouse: That's the question.05:08
meredyddMilhouse: which is why I reckon option #1 isn't sensible05:08
Milhousecanola is being uploaded to the repository...05:08
timelessmy 770 came in a box just like yours05:08
timelessi've never needed to use a url hack, and the javascript version does work05:09
RocketHPCCool, can't wait to try Canola out05:09
meredydd#2) Somehow make it easier to bring in existing, free, windowed apps to fill the gap.05:09
timelessi've actually found that i usually don't really need the js version and am actually happier using the html version, but i can ask gmail to switch me05:09
Milhousewithout hildon, wouldn't this make the 770 platform bog standard debian?05:09
RocketHPCI have been using VNC to go into my Ubuntu box whenever I need to run any "real" apps05:09
meredyddtimeless: Neat. Perhaps it's just my Personal Gadget Malfunction Field at work again. Doesn't matter if it's fresh out of the box, electronics just get uppity around me. I have a feeling they're whispering to each other, "Oh, so he thinks he knows something about us, does he?"05:10
timelessi suspect my malfunction field is much stronger than yours05:10
timelessanyway, i really didn't have problems using gmail w/ os2006 or os2006.105:10
meredydd#3) Somehow make it easier to bring in existing, free applications which are already built with a one-screen-at-a-time paradigm05:11
meredydd(which, as far as I know, is only J2ME applications)05:11
pokute_RocketHPC: http://tonikitoo.blogspot.com/ <- Philip is working on a better email framework. :-)05:12
Milhouseis hildon open source under gpl or could this be nokias way of controlling the platform? that is, no other manufacturer can use the hildon framework on another device and therefore gain the benefit of maemo development for free05:12
meredyddHmm, timeless. I shall have to try again, then. Possibly do another reflash, see if I can tickle it into working again.05:12
pokute_And he has hinted on stuff that leads to believe that tinymail's framework is going to be used in 770 email client someday.05:12
Milhousecanola is ready...05:13
pokute_wee?!05:13
Milhouseoh dear05:17
Milhousecanola not installable, missing libsoup05:17
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RocketHPCI get the same thing, Milhouse05:34
MilhouseHave left a comment on the "handful" blog05:35
Milhousestrange that the installation instructions are biased towards scirocco (is that herring or sardine?) as I've had no success upgrading to either on the 770 itself05:36
pokute_scirocco is maemo 2.105:37
pokute_mistral is 2.005:37
Milhouseis 2.1 aka herring?05:38
Milhousetoo many code names!!05:38
RocketHPCI think they were running late on their release time and released without really testing it05:39
RocketHPCThey are probably all running the bleeding edge releases and didn't bother to test it on a 770 running a production OS05:39
mattechnically, isn't scirocco supposed to be the latest production os? (i.e., the latest available stable firmware ?)05:40
Tak`apt-get install libsoup2.2-8=2.2.92-0ubuntu1osso4indt1`fixes it05:40
matI was about to try to install it myself, but I'm still running the old 2.0 firmware05:40
pokute_if I've understood right, herring should be 3.0 with feature freeze. sardine 3.0+05:40
TakI have mistral repos and it's working fine @ mat05:40
timelesswhat is this numbered firmware? i thought that nokia was shipping software05:41
pokute_Anyone recovered from the shock? :-)05:47
pokute_Heh. Sleep for me now. Good luck with getting it to work.05:49
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Takawesome05:53
Takit crashes05:53
pokute_:-)05:53
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Milhousehas anyone suceeded upgrading os 2006-v2 to either sardine or herring on the device itself (using the dual boot and upgrade instructions)? i havent, and have tried many  times... :(05:56
Milhousecanola packages being regerenerated... think i'll hang back this time!05:57
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timelessv2?06:02
TakI haven't tried @ sardine/herring06:02
Milhousev2 == second release of 2006 (november?)06:03
timelessis there a v0?06:04
timeless(Sorry, i'm not very good at counting)06:04
Milhousefirmware versions are usually 1-based :)06:05
timelessi still don't understand this firmware stuff06:05
timelessi never considered DOS to be firmware, nor WindowsNT06:06
timelessi think NT was 3 based06:06
timelessor zero, maybe 1, depends on what you mean by based06:06
Milhousefirmware is a cross between software and hardware06:07
* Tak waits for "Configuring Local Database"06:07
Milhousebecause the os is flashed into hardware (flash memory) its called firmware06:08
Milhouseall microsoft products are 3 based - thats when they become usable... :)06:08
Milhousestill getting libsoup errors on canola - guess the repository hasn't updated yet?06:09
timelessso if wince ran in flash memory it'd be 1 based?06:09
Milhousethat drek probably needs to be about 7 based using my above theory06:10
timelessand what if you didn't need to flash your compaq ipaq in order to update its os?06:10
timelesse.g. if you could i dunno, netcat an iso image into flash06:11
Milhousewouldn't you still be flashing it?06:11
timelessdepends on your definition06:11
Milhouseusb, netcat, wifi... all just sources to obtain the image that gets flashed into the memory on the device06:11
timelessin my mind, flashing is some process where you use an external system to fry the device06:12
timelessbut i'm not a hardware person06:12
timelessnor am i a phone person06:12
Milhouseif the os runs from flash it has to be flashed into the memory at some point06:12
timelessbut if i make a change as an end user and am not using special hard, is that flashing?06:12
timelesse.g. if i change the theme of my device to the alternate theme06:12
timelessam i flashing?06:12
Milhousethat said, i think you can upload the 770 firmware/software without flashing the memory...06:12
Milhouseprobably not06:13
timelessi can replace most apps using application installer06:13
timelessand i really find it objectionable for that to be called flashing06:13
timelessbut i'm a strange person who doesn't know a thing about hardware06:13
Milhousesome parts of the filesystem are using the flash memory, so you are updating flash memory but that isn't "flashing" in the sense  you are updating the OS06:13
timelessthe entire file system is flash memory06:14
timelessthe device only has ram, flash, and mmc's06:14
Milhousewhenever you write to the MMC card you are updating flash memory, but no that isn't flashing either06:14
Milhousei think most would agree that "flashing" applies to updates of the OS only06:15
timelesswhat's part of the os?06:16
timelessif i replace the default theme using application installer, is that flashing?06:16
timelessis that part of the os?06:16
timelessimo phone metaphors are really darn stupid when the device isn't a phone06:16
Milhousetheme - no06:17
timelessweb browser?06:18
Milhousefirmware is used in the context of devices that run embedded operating systems06:18
Milhouseweb browser - no06:18
timelessglibc?06:18
Milhouseonly the os which is supplied as an image you download from nokia and transfer to the device using the flasher utility06:18
timelessbut the thing that comes from nokia is more than just a kernel06:19
Milhouseanything other than the image doesn't constiute flashing06:19
timelessand most things that are on the image could be manually installed later06:19
Milhouseyes it is - it consists of about 5 different components that together form the operating system06:19
Takthe kernel is updated via flashing as well06:19
timelesswhat about updating the xserver?06:19
Milhousesince you don't update that with the flasher utility, it doesn't fall into the flashing category06:20
timeless(that's actually the only risky one i've mentioned so far, since on average there's some lame integration between kernel drivers and xservers. e.g. nvidia's opensolaris driver includes a kernel module)06:20
timelessso supposing nokia released an image that contained nothing different in the section that had to be flashed as compared to the previous image06:22
timelesswould you still call that a new firmware version?06:22
Milhousewouldn't that be pointless on the part of nokia? that would be an identical image to the previous version...06:24
timelesssuppose they fixed the web browser, or the theme, or a localization, or any of the things that you said aren't really part of the flashing section06:24
Milhouseif nothing in the new image is different to the previous image, it's identical to the previous image and not a new image :)06:24
timelessbelieve me, most bugs aren't in the kernel06:24
Milhouseweb browser, as it is supplied, does exist in the image06:25
Milhousebut could be updated using apt-getg06:25
timelessyes it does06:25
timelessi'd imagine so06:25
Milhouseso in theory some of the standard apps could be updated without reflashing06:25
timelessnow you understand my question, i hope06:26
timelessat what point is it still a "firmware" update, if it doesn't actually change anything that's really firmware?06:26
Milhousei do, it's a bit of a grey area and firmware isn't a precise definition when the firmware image contains applications :)06:26
Takah, working now06:28
Milhousefrom wikipedia "In computing, firmware is software that is embedded in a hardware device. It is often provided on flash ROMs or as a binary image file that can be uploaded onto existing hardware by a user". I'm happy with that definition.06:29
Milhousethanks tak - will tray again06:29
Milhousestill no joy here, still nissing dependecies06:30
Milhousemissing06:30
timeless*shrug* i wouldn't call a game i download to my mobile phone firmware06:30
Milhouseam confused whether the repositories have been updated or not - suspect not06:30
Milhousethats the grey area bit i guess06:31
Milhousefirmware relates more to the operating system rather than applications06:31
timelessthe idea behind firmware was that it was stuff that wasn't easily changed06:31
Milhousewhile a game may be supplied as one binary image installable by the user, it wouldn't in my opinion fall into the "flashing" or firmware category06:32
timelessif i can easily change my game, and obviously i can, then it doesn't belong in the category firmware06:32
timelesss/i can,/it can,/06:32
Milhouseif you trash the installed game, will the phone still work?06:32
timelessi sure hope so :)06:33
Milhousethen the game isn't firmware06:33
timelessimagine wince on a flash, and imagine it had a startup folder, and imagine there was a program that when run would ask wince to shut down06:34
timelessdoes installing that program into the startup folder using explorer on the device constitute flashing since you've now made it not work?06:35
Milhousethat's called a bug06:35
Milhouseor denial of service06:35
timelessuser initiated06:35
Milhousebut have you modified the installed firmware?06:35
timelessdepends on where you draw the line on firmware06:35
timelessi dropped a file into a startup folder06:35
Milhouseno you havent, you've just configured the device in such a way to stop it working06:35
Milhousein actuall fact it's doing exactly what it's told to do :)06:36
timelessso what if i remove all the startup items from linux06:36
timelessdoes that make anything and everything i remove optional and not firmware, since i'm now telling it to do less? :)06:36
timelesslife was simpler when firmware was a bios, and everything else was software06:37
timelessanyway, my point is that i really don't think that on average there's much stuff in an update that deserves to be called firmware, and hopefully on average not a single bit of it deserves to be called firmware06:38
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Milhousegot to reboot for canola now - chat you later06:48
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Takirc on gaim on 770?  painful06:50
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revhehe07:23
* rev reboots for some olive oil07:23
Taklol07:24
revg'night!07:24
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WillySillyCanola doesnt seem to work for me08:42
Wiredlessplease explain how so08:42
WillySillyIt gets to the slash screen then quits08:43
Wiredlessyou have vertual memory enabled?08:44
WillySillyYeah08:44
Wiredless32 or more?08:44
WillySillyYeah08:44
Wiredlessok08:45
WillySillyI have the max of 6408:45
Wiredlessk08:45
WillySillyI do get a glib warning though08:45
WillySillycanola[2337]: GLIB WARNING ** default - Unable to find a plugin to handle filter 'Controller/Container'08:45
Wiredlessmay want to post that in the comments08:45
Wiredlesslooks like i have to reflash just to install the damn thing08:46
WillySillyOuch08:47
Wiredlessyah no shit08:47
Wiredlesssux08:47
Wiredlessi got to beta test it08:48
Wiredlesssome reason if you had the beta there saying you need to reflash08:49
daccwow, is canola released?08:51
Wiredlessyes08:51
dacccool08:51
WillySillyat least avahi is working08:51
Wiredlesscan be08:51
daccwill be fun for daap in internet cafes08:51
Wiredlessyep yep08:51
daccwhat's avahi?08:51
WiredlessmDNS resonder08:52
Wiredlessresponder08:52
daccooh, i see08:52
WillySillyavahi gives most of the functionality for daap08:52
WillySillywhere you can see all the shares08:52
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* dacc nods.08:53
daccaka bonjour08:53
WiredlessAvahi is a system which facilitates service discovery on a local network08:53
Wiredlessyepper08:53
Wiredlesszeroconfig08:53
Wiredlesslets see what else08:53
daccdns reserved bits =)08:53
WillySillyhmm, i got a broken canola install08:53
Wiredlessdid you reboot after install?08:53
WillySillyyeah08:54
Wiredlessuninstalled and reinstalled?08:54
Wiredlesswhat version?08:54
Wiredless17 or 18?08:54
WillySilly1808:54
Wiredlessshouldnt matter i guess08:54
Whiz:) that canola repository doesnt contain required version for clinc0-package or something.. I mean the repository says that it has version 1.0_28 but when apt-get requests it, server gives 404 :)08:54
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Wiredlessyou also need http://repository.maemo.org08:55
disqWhiz: add repository.maemo.org scirocco free non-free to your sources.list08:56
disqnot mistral but scirocco08:56
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Wiredlessisnt scirocco for newer kernals?08:56
Whizdisq, aa, thanks08:56
Wiredlessmistral for 2006?08:57
disqthe packaging is apparently not very well tested on a mistral system08:57
Wiredlessyah im screwed08:57
Wiredlessneed to reflash i guess08:58
Wiredlessdamn i hate that08:58
Wiredlessthis is starting to smell of microsoft08:58
disqbtw, recommend me a good upnp media server for win3208:58
WillySillyI'll just flash my 770 to 2.108:58
Wiredlessi know they have been using twonky08:58
Wiredlessin house08:59
disqwas using windows media connect but canola won't show avi files with that, probably wmc doesn't support reencoding or something08:59
disqtried tversity didn't like it. that simplecenter/philips stuff also sucks08:59
Wiredlessiv tried 4 on OSX09:00
Wiredlessdidnt try video tho09:00
disqinstalling now09:01
daccis there a new method for extending the root fs onto a memory card?09:04
disqtwonky - video files - same thing09:05
Wiredlesswell was refering to twonky media server09:05
Wiredlessaudio/video/pictures09:05
disqmy problem is with videos. the upnp server should support on the fly reencoding so i can play my xvid avi's on the 770 :)09:06
Wiredlessmy problem with twonky is no aac support09:07
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WillySillythe damn gui updater cant find my 77009:28
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Guard][anmorning09:52
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Guardianplease, what's the difference between rootstrap and minimal-rootstrap, i mean for what purpose the minimal one should be used10:16
timelessanyone here ever consider reading help?10:18
Guardianam i the target of the question ?10:21
timelesssure10:22
Guardiani do read the maemos howto10:22
timelesshave you ever clicked the globe next to the battery?10:22
Guardianand from what i read for now, minmal rootstrap has not been mentioned yet10:24
timelessi was thinking more about help than howtos10:25
timelessi've read the howtos10:25
timelessbut i know that what i'm curious about isn't there10:26
timelessi'm wondering if it's obvious or described in help10:26
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winklehow do does the sharing in canola work?10:32
winklecan I access anything from the network out of the box?10:32
koenwinkle: upnp10:33
koenhas canola been released yet?10:33
Whizyup :D10:33
winkleits awsome10:35
Guardiantimeless: ok well found in the wiki, SardineGettingStarted, was it hard to answer me if you knew it ? :)10:35
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VeggenGuardian: Sometimes, you know it's there, but have to look it up to find out exactly where.10:35
VeggenGuardian: And sometimes, you know it's in some documentation, but doesn't remember the *exact* details.10:36
Guardiantrue10:36
Guardianit has been a long time since i did not develop anything for maemo, was before EABI introduction so ...10:37
Guardiansurely for those who kept working on it some questions may appear to be obvious10:38
koenWTF?10:41
koenyou have to reboot after installing canola10:41
koenwhat is this, windows?10:41
Guardian:D10:42
VeggenGuardian: Asking complex questions and not accepting "read documentation X" is even worse. Reading documentation is a good start, and one can rather come back if there was things you didn't understand.10:43
JaffaMorning, all10:43
koenhey Jaffa10:43
Jaffakoen: I think it's because of its configuration web server10:43
Guardianmorning jaffa10:43
* Jaffa hasn't yet checked netstat to check it's not a security hole :-/10:43
VeggenGuardian: But I agree that it's good to point to the correct documentation if it's not obvious.10:43
koenJaffa: ah, so that is taking 80% all the time10:43
GuardianVeggen: i accepted it, it's just that i did not read sardine stuff, since i felt i would not use sardine10:44
Jaffakoen: I'm also not hopeful that the web server is only started when you select the "Configure Canola" from the menu, rather than just in /etc/rc2.d. I was going to have a poke about on the train but ended up fixing Sylpheed's menus instead.10:47
Jaffakoen: It didn't seem to find my Myth box either (i.e. UPnP AV), but I'm not sure if "Shared Music" is just supposed to be DAAP.10:47
koencanola "shared music" is daapv610:48
koenitunes is at v7 nowadays10:48
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koenwhy do I get the idea canola doesn't work with IT2006?10:50
* koen downloads it2006.110:50
bilboedkoen, I'd be amazed if it didn't10:53
JaffaIt works with the most recent, and given the dependency on a scirocco apt repository, perhaps it won't work with the original 2006 OS release10:54
koenbilboed: be amazed10:55
bilboedkoen, bug andrunko about it once he's online10:55
JaffaHmm, bizarre email of the day: "Have you come across a QuickTime version of my Nokia 770?" (OK, it's a non-native English speaker, but it made me smile :-))10:55
koenbilboed: every action freezes on "Wait! configuring local database" and the config entry just crashes opera10:55
timelessi was sleeping10:56
timelessall i did was read the documentation for bugs10:57
timelessnot comprehension, i cna say "yes, that's coverted," and probably guess about how far into a printed stack10:58
X-FadeLol, installing Canola takes so much cpu that my backlight isn't turned on when i11:00
X-Fadereactivate it.11:00
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JaffaHmm. Not good: Canola's configuration server a) starts on boot (as we thought, hence the reboot), and binds to 0.0.0.0:9000 so is open to anyone over the network.11:10
X-FadeDo you all think that in Canola "Wait, Configuring Local Database" really means "You have to configure this option first".11:10
koenX-Fade: it means "beta software sucks"11:12
* koen reflashes11:12
X-FadeWell, I don't have a problem with testing beta software.11:13
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X-FadeMan, I really need that 2GB card I have here. But I have to wait until I get it as a present for "Sinterklaas".11:15
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sunny`'lo11:29
Jaffalo sunny`11:30
timelessisn't 90000 X11 classically?11:31
timelesserr 900011:31
timelessso, anyone here familiar w/ connection manager?11:31
tigertin what sense?11:34
timelesstigert: you might be cheating, so if someone else could answer, that would be appreciated11:35
timelesswhen you go to a strange placce and click the globe and select 'select connection'11:36
timelesswhat do the icons mean? and does anything explain them? esp say... help?11:36
inzDoh, canola repository on ApplicationRepositories has b0rken my script11:37
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jtrahi all11:47
jtra<jtra> hi allERC> i'm new to here,11:47
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jtraand my irc client is not working well :-(11:49
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jtraok, I do not have 770 now and I'm pondering whether to wait for 870 or not11:50
spaetztimeless: you man the WLAN "managed mode vs ad-hoc vs link-local" icons?11:50
bergiehmm... Canola shows me bunch of DAAP servers under "Shared music" but then fails to load the music11:50
spaetz...you *mean*...11:50
dwdjtra: The "870", as far as I know, has no release date. Or if it does, I've not seen any mention of one.11:52
jtraI have read blog of thoughtfix and the engadget article11:53
JaffaAnyone who knows of anything won't say anything (quite rightly)11:53
dwdjtra: Yes, and that's really all anyone knows, other than Nokia, who aren't saying much.11:53
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timelessyes11:54
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timelessspaetz: how did ou know there were 3 icons and not 2/11:56
X-FadeToo bad Canola is closed source. Making it an open project on Garage would be awesome and bring out the full potential of this app.11:56
dwdjtra: FWIW, it took a *long* while between the S60 v3.0 (sorry, 3rd edition) phones being available for developers, and being able to actually buy the things. The 770 wasn't quick to launch either. I doubt that it's successor will be out very soon.11:57
jtraseems like a good reason to buy 77011:58
jtrahow is it reliable from the hardware point of view?11:58
bergieX-Fade: agreed... that is what I said in their survey in https://garage.maemo.org/survey/?group_id=12511:59
X-Fadebergie: hehe, will do that too :)12:00
bergiewould be good to get that message across12:00
dwdjtra: Hardware seems fairly solid, unless you end up with the stripy-screen issue. Software-wise, it has watchdogs and suchlike to prevent the device locking up - it'll reboot before that happens - but that seems to be triggered if you use swap.12:01
X-Fadebergie: Argh, you have only a few chars to answer those questions..12:02
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X-FadeHmm I wonder how hard it will crash if I disable maxlength restrictions with my webdeveloper toolbar :)12:02
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jtradwd: ok, thanks12:04
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jtrawhat is maximum rs-mmc card size that 770 supports?12:26
X-Fade2GB atm.12:26
JaffaYay, joy! Maemo 3 devices will not be able to run most/some Maemo 2 applications without further source-level changes.12:28
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AD-N770good morning12:33
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ferenchello all12:39
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spaetztimeless: I've just seen them all depending on how I got connected. There is no documentation that I would know of.12:41
koenJaffa: I'm sorry I mentioned the scary 'R' word12:42
spaetzJaffa: who says that?12:42
X-Fadekoen: I think they have mail rules where 'roadmap' > /dev/null ;)12:43
spaetzjtra: From a customer point of view, the hardware seems fairly solid and nice. The backlight flickers a little when darkes while it charges.12:43
koenspaetz: carlos says it12:43
spaetzkoen: thanks.12:43
spaetznot so good12:43
spaetzbut depends on the intrusiveness of the changes :-)12:44
Veggenand whether the improvements is worth it.12:44
Veggen("are" - damn, I used to be good at english grammar)12:45
jtrawell, I'm now researching where to buy 77012:46
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jtrait is harder in the Czech Republic since Nokia decided not to sell it here12:46
Veggencan't you just buy it from www.nokia.com still?12:47
jtrait offers many European countries but mine is not among them12:47
Jaffakoen: Unsurprisingly "I cannot reveal the target date for Bora"12:48
JaffaSo Peter's assertion it'll be about 3 weeks after the 870 is right, presumably running "IT 2007"12:49
koenyeah12:49
koenmaybe they'll send us bora + 870 to shut us up ;)12:49
timelessbora?12:49
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koenJaffa: david whinerhall surface again as well12:52
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Jaffakoen: indeed, I resisted the urge to get into another argument (I hope)12:54
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koenJaffa: I guess he had another "bad day" or whatever eufenism nokia uses12:55
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JaffaNah, I'm not sure we can justify euphanasia in this case. Oh, you said *euphemism* ;-)13:00
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* spaetz spills coffee13:05
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koenJaffa: we should track down the first occurence of "overnight" in carlos' and ferenc' mails13:06
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Jaffakoen: the cynic could argue "how about over a year"?13:10
jtraok, 770 is bought online, it will hopefully arrive within a week13:22
jtrathere was some Germany firm which can deliver it here13:23
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tigertso I had this nagging feeling about canola13:37
tigert"hmm.. nobody has actually mentioned its open source, yet everyone kinda assumes it is.."13:37
tigertdarn13:37
koendoesn't come as a surprise13:38
tigertwell, indt was working on opensource stuff13:38
tigertin a way their "score" sunk a lot in my eyes13:39
JaffaWhat *is* the relationship between indt and Nokia? Their name includes Nokia - a trademark - but they've claimed they're "not Nokia". Were they just saying they're not "official" Nokia, or something? Or is it a bit like the Mozilla Foundation, or Fedora, or ...?13:39
X-Fadetigert: apart from it being open source. What do you think about the GUI? If you look at it with your GUI guru eyes?13:40
tigertX-Fade: I havent installed it yet13:40
tigertsure it looks flashy and nice13:41
tigerthave to use it to see how it really _works_ apart from the "looking good" -part13:41
tigertthat is what matters, how you get stuff done13:41
tigertbut I agree the maemo ui could use some of this kind of approach,13:41
tigertyet its at the same time hard,13:41
tigertas one is building a general platform to run apps on13:42
X-FadeIf only you could reorder all desktop components and scale them :)13:42
ian_brasilJaffa: i think the relationship is that INdT is an independent research/development organisation that has as its main banker nokia13:43
Jaffaian_brasil: interesting13:44
Jaffatigert: I'm still not sure that lists with scroll buttons are the best UI for touch-based interfaces hosting long lists (e.g. thousands of songs)13:45
X-FadeJaffa: http://www.indt.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=3313:45
koen*small* scroll buttons13:45
X-FadeYeah, and you can directly click on the second item in a list.13:46
bergieJaffa: the reason apparently for having INdT is that Nokia gets big tax breaks in Brazil this way13:49
mgedminso, is canola released yet?13:50
bergiemgedmin: a beta version, yes... I get it to hang the 770 a lot :-/13:51
Jaffamgedmin: yep13:51
JaffaX-Fade: thanks13:51
mgedmingoogle doesn't know where13:51
mgedminok, found it, I think13:51
Jaffahttp://planet.maemo.org/ and http://maemo.org/maemowiki/ApplicationCatalog200613:52
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mgedminthat clears it up: canola is not open source13:55
koenso another unfixable pile of bugs13:56
koena pile of bugs that opens up port 900013:56
tigertJaffa: yea, I cannot comment yet, just installing canola14:12
tigertwill know better once I have played with it a bit14:12
koenJaffa: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/response-to-nokia-trolls.txt14:13
koenJaffa: I'm not sending that, but it sums up my thoughts about some nokia people being asshats14:15
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mgedminI dunno... his emails on the recent thread were pretty reasonable, I thought14:20
ferenctoday is the day of hate it seems like... i wonder what is going on? maybe i should also look for someone who i can hate for a while :)14:22
tigertkoen: I think its more about personalities14:23
ferencah, damn. i will not look for anyone, just go back to my lovely xml docs :) piece!14:23
tigertkoen: david is the guy who is advocating open source and other stuff internally too, hating (like we all do) powerpoints etc14:24
tigerthe's kinda the typical hacker dude14:24
koenI know, I met him at fosdem14:24
tigertyep14:24
tigertbut nobody is arguing we suck a lot in many things :P14:25
tigerthaving some people who could maintain our repository stuff and make sardine work better wouldnt hurt14:25
koeninstead of arguing he's confusing the issues14:25
* tigert tries canola14:26
koenthe rant about the kernel release schedule was totally unnecessary14:26
X-FadeSAS: cvs -d :pserver:anonymous@gborg.postgresql.org:/usr/local/cvsroot/slony1 login14:26
X-FadeArgh, sorry wrong window ;)14:26
koentigert: like Jaffa said, how can you expect people to work on stuff when they know it's going to be obsoleted soon(TM)14:26
|tbb|hi all, how do you transfer files in the best and fastest way from your homepc to your n770 while you got a ssh session from n770 to your server?to your14:27
ian_brasili know how much some of the Nokia guys have fought for open source so i am for giving them a bit of a breather to be honest. The communication is improving and we are all on the same side so to speak14:27
tigertkoen: yea14:27
tigertkoen: what do you mean, sardine?14:27
koenian_brasil: we've been giving them a breather since IT2005, to be honest14:28
koentigert: sardine, herring, porting applications, etc14:28
koentigert: for me it's become a games of guessing "what's nokia going to break now"14:28
|tbb|any ideas?14:29
mgedminsuch is life in the open source world14:30
mgedminABIs break14:30
Veggentbb: scp14:30
mgedminapplications that nobody cares about get abandoned14:31
mgedmingood applications catch up14:31
koenmgedmin: sure, but there's a huge difference between "The ABI has been broken" and "We are going to break ABI"14:31
ian_brasilkoen: and you think kicking them will get more results...i think they could say f@!& open source14:31
|tbb|veggen could u post me the correct syntax in pm?14:31
koenian_brasil: you mean saying nothing will work better?14:32
Veggentbb: man scp14:32
koenian_brasil: "no critique allowed"14:32
Veggensorry, but this is *not* the right channel for general Linux questions, I feel.14:32
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ian_brasilno i am saying that dumb head management types are like hard to get to change direction14:32
|tbb|thats why i was asking for a msg in private chat ;)14:33
mgedmin|tbb|: I've found it most convenient to use sshfs and connect from the desktop to the 77014:33
Veggentbb: you need to learn to find these simple things yourself, or else you'll annoy the heck out of all IRC-channels.14:33
|tbb|i will look for it if i have time14:33
mgedmin|tbb|: what sort of OS do you have on your home PC?14:33
|tbb|iwas knowing how can i get it with ftp scp would be similar, but my quest was going to be which is the best and fastest way14:34
Veggentbb: That's the thing - it is sort of not good to ask on IRC-channels just because you have no time to read documentation yourself.14:34
|tbb|mgedmin slackware and on my work pc debian14:35
mgedminI think helping somebody find the best way to transfer files to the 770 is a better use of IRC than chatting about email flamewars14:35
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mgedmin|tbb|: can you ssh from your desktop to your 770?14:36
|tbb|yes i can with a little help of my friends ;) old beatles song14:37
Veggenmgedmin: oh, sure. I thought he was asking about general scp syntax.14:37
mgedmin|tbb|: this works in Ubuntu, so I think it might work in Debian as well14:37
jtrattb: midnight commander can connect and transfer files via ssh, I did not tried that with n770 though14:37
mgedminapt-get install sshfs14:37
Veggenand it's considered good behaviour to read the doc first, and ask later.14:37
mgedminadduser $USER fuse14:37
mgedminlog out, log in14:37
mgedminmkdir my-nokia14:37
mgedminsshfs user@ip-of-your-nokia:/ my-nokia14:37
mgedmin(after making the 770 go online)14:37
mgedminand now you can see and manipulate the files on your 770 in the my-nokia directory on your computer14:38
mgedminwhen you're done, fusermount -u my-nokia14:38
jtrattb: it is as simple as selecting "shell link" from menu and filing user@host, then enter password if you have any14:38
mgedminjtra: it works, but midnight's ssh support is (or maybe just feels) very slow14:38
Veggenbut, effective way, that's something else: If I have  directory I want to copy over, I use this neat trick: ssh <home_machine> 'cd /some/remote/directory;tar cf - <directory>' | (cd /some/place/local;tar xf -)14:38
mgedminyeah, there are many ways14:39
|tbb|so u zip it like beckham and transfer it on your n770, could idea14:40
|tbb|-could +good14:40
VeggenMy line puts the archive on standard out, that the local tar packs out again.14:41
Veggenscp with many small files is not so fast.14:41
Veggenbut for large or few files, it works well.14:42
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* Jaffa belatedly catches up...14:47
Jaffamgedmin: ABI breakage is relatively livable with, it's the never-still API changes *with limited/no backwards compatibility* that frustrates14:48
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mgedminI shouldn't have said ABI, I intended to say API14:48
mgedminI agree that it frustrated14:49
mgedminI agree that it frustrates14:49
mgedminmy point was that this isn't uncommon in the open-source world14:49
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Veggenmge: Not in the proprietary world either.14:50
_matthias_canola is segfaulting on my device :(14:52
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tigertreboot after installation14:57
oniondamn it's unstable14:57
onionthe whole tablet has rebooted now twice when using canola14:58
ferenccanola has a garage project, i'd suggest you guys to shoot the bug reports there14:58
tigertI wish it was free software14:59
ferenctigert: they might have several reasons why it is not open. they have a forum over at garage, maybe it would be worth asking.14:59
ferenci will also push them to publish sources, since garage is meant for OSS15:00
X-Fadeferenc: What about Media Streamer? :)15:01
X-FadeI would like to see their theming tricks too..15:01
tigertferenc: "sell it to nokia for big money"? :)15:01
tigertdang. I thought canola did upnp15:02
Jaffatigert: nope, I've raised a feature request :-(15:02
tigerthow do they browse the thousands of songs then?15:03
ferencX-Fade: good point. i think we have a few more projects there who did not upload sources.15:03
Jaffamgedmin: agreed, it's not uncommon in the OSS world; however it is uncommon in the OSS world to have the largest code writer just dumping in new features/changes without discussion on mailing lists, a roadmap for the project being well known and discussed etc. A hybrid model where things break (well, it's OSS) with no idea as to *why* they're breaking ("well, that's commercially sensitive") is unlikely to keep developers on it for long.15:03
tigertferenc: a LOT of packaged stuff also,15:03
tigertferenc: people package opensource stuff for the 77015:03
Jaffatigert: It does DAAP, so (allegedly) works with iTunes etc.15:03
tigertbut not many really share their debian package sources15:04
tigertie, so one could modify the stuff and package it again15:04
X-FadeHmmm: Visa Smolander: "Current plan is to release the source code. I'm not sure yet when it will happen, though. Hopefully during this year.."15:04
tigertJaffa: okay15:04
Jaffatigert: alternatively, lots of MP3s on an MMC card? ;-)15:04
ferencX-Fade: try to ping him. i am sure he will reply.15:04
ferenctigert: i want to rearrange the extras repo first and then look into access rights again.15:05
ferenctigert: the best would be to "recruit" a packaging team who then would help the garage projects as well.15:05
ferenci have not seen any volunteers for such job so far15:05
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X-Fadeferenc: Ok, I did ;)15:07
ferencX-Fade: cool. hope he will give a + reply regarding sources.15:07
timelessrsync w/ ssh :)15:07
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ferenctigert: what did you mean by this: "people package opensource stuff for the 770" ?15:10
jtracool, e-shop informed me that my 770 was sent, that means it should arrive by monday, possibly even tomorrow15:10
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koenJaffa: heh, I seem to have skipped over the one helpfull email from david15:13
timelesshrm15:13
timelessi think you haven't met some open source projects15:13
timelesse.g. firefox15:14
timelesswhere things randomly show up without much notice to most of the world15:14
timelessor ubuntu where all of a sudden the theme shifts drastically15:14
timelessbig open source projects do have big surprises at times15:15
timelessthat's part of the fun15:15
timelesswhich isn't to say that i happen to like that approach, who can, but it's not unheard of in the "open source" community for it to happen15:15
timelessall of a sudden a new virtual machine appeared for javascript for mozilla215:16
timelessthere was virtually no warning15:16
timelessit happens that it wasn't entirely written by the primary coder, but he landed it15:16
timeless(true, it was a contribution from another company, but...)15:16
timelessof the big groups, i suppose opensolaris gives some reasonable warnings with a roadmap15:17
timelessbut the people outside the sun firewall get upset about a lack of transparency too15:17
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florian_kchi all15:20
ferenchello florian_kc!15:21
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florian_kcferenc: hi15:22
florian_kcferenc: I fought another battle against GForge yesterday... current create_svn.php (from cvs) still messes up the permissions of the repositories.15:27
ferencflorian_kc: i have an idea. i'll write you an email.15:28
florian_kcferenc: oh cool15:29
florian_kcferenc: i managed to fix this, but let me see your idea is better15:31
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bergieX-Fade: Was that "Current plan is to release the source code" from Canola devs?15:32
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X-Fadebergie: No, for Media Streamer.15:33
bergieaha15:33
X-FadeBut the indt guys come here too, so ask them :)15:35
bergieok... will do if I'm still online then. Though it is already 10 or 11am in Recife I think15:37
* ferenc is off to play some futsal. be back later.15:39
X-Fadebergie: Perheps andrunko knows? I think he has something to do with Canola?15:40
tigertferenc: I mean, there have been several cases of someone packaging free software for the 77015:40
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tigertbut they only put their armel.deb file out15:41
tigertnot the diff, src tar.gz etc15:41
tigertie, if someone wants to modify the stuff, they have  to do the packaging themselves from scratch15:41
Jaffatimeless: OpenSolaris is a new OSS project and can hardly be expected to be perfect (same firewall separation as Maemo, I suppose); Mozilla/Firefox have had much criticism for their approach, but at least there's a broad swipe at a future roadmap; Perl, Python, Ruby, Apache, Tomcat, PHP, etc. all have roadmaps; discussions etc.15:43
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timelessjust offering some comparisons, i'm not going to say i like or dislike any particular model15:44
timelesskeep in mind that sun has open sourced: netbeans, openoffice, and now opensolaris, and will open source java at some point15:44
timelessnokia has basically open sourced asterisk15:44
jtratimeless: java is opensourced now15:45
timelesshrm, url?15:45
koenany news site last week15:45
X-Fadetimeless: Under what rock did you hide? :)15:45
timelessi tried reading a couple of articles 1min ago15:45
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timelessnone actually listed a url or said that it was, just that it would be15:46
VeggenI don't think the code is quite released yet, only going to happen RSN?15:46
timelessi'll repeat: url?15:46
X-Fadehttp://www.sun.com/software/opensource/java/15:47
X-Fadehttps://openjdk.dev.java.net/15:47
JaffaVeggen: Java ME source certainly is available15:47
Veggenoh, ok. My fault, then.15:48
koenME sources where available for some years now15:48
koenbut:15:48
koen1) they needed gcc 2.95.315:48
koen2) you couldn't distribute the binary15:49
minragreetings.   i havent been able to get vnc connections going yet.  (to debian realvnc) :(  from the logs it looks like the nokia vncviewer is aborting the connection15:49
|tbb|is there a theme chooser with preview in the n770?15:49
* minra stfws15:49
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timelesstbb: thankfully nokia wasn't silly enough not to include such a thing15:57
|tbb|why is that silly?15:57
timelesswhy would not including such a thing be silly?15:57
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|tbb|ive looked under /usr/share/themes there where some themes  if i would like to change it i have to matchbox-... -t themename15:59
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|tbb|i would like to set the font of the newsreader applet on home screen smaller, is there any hack ?16:00
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minrahi obi16:14
obihi16:14
* minra stifles a potential stream of noobish questions16:14
minraseen that leaked pic of the "870"? yet?16:15
minrai sure like the 770 design better16:15
X-Fademinra: I think we all do :)16:16
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minraGPG error: http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com mistral Release: The following signatures were invalid: BADSIG CBFC2BECC6903E72 Nokia Internet...16:24
minrai am getting this when running apt-get upgrade16:24
JaffaThat's fine - although apt-get upgrade on the device was historically dangerous.16:26
minrasorry i had a brain short circuit... it came through the update16:28
minrai generally dont run upgrade...16:28
minrathanks jaffa... seems to have updated despite the warnings16:29
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bstockhey, i had a quick question. My application manager doesn't want to load for me, is there anyway to see what the problem is?16:37
timelessdoes it crash?16:37
timelessif you have /media/mmc1/core-dumps/ you'd be able to see it crash :)16:38
bstockit just says 'Application manager - loading'... sits for about 30 seconds, then goes away16:38
timelesswell, try having that folder, see if it leaves a nice file (usually two) for you16:38
bstockdo i just mk that dir?16:38
timelessyou can use file manager ...16:39
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nelsonDoes anybody besides me think the clock works backwards?16:43
bstockso i made that directory, tried to launch the app, failed, and still no files16:43
timelesshow so? =>nelson16:43
nelsonI think it should always show the time at your current location.16:43
timelessinteresting, well, you can cat /var/log/syslog if you want to...16:44
bstocki've noticed some issues with the clock, as it doesn't like to change timezones16:44
nelsonjust as alarms should be relative to your current location.16:44
timelessreally? i've flown to 5+ countries and had no problems w/ my 77016:44
nelsontimeless how do you change the time display?16:44
timelessopen clock16:44
timeless(double clicking on home applet)16:45
timelessclock menu>map>select home city...16:45
nelsonright; that's what I'm suggesting is wrong.16:45
timelesswhy?16:45
nelsonyour home is where your stereo is.16:45
timelesspersonally i'd like to have a swap item, but...16:46
nelsonUnless you're moving, you shouldn't have to change your home city.16:46
nelsonOn the other hand, when you visit some place, changing the displayed time should simply be a matter of clicking on your location on the map.16:46
timelesswell, destination is a place i'd be going to, not a place i'm at16:46
timelessso it's not just a matter of swapping them16:46
timelessboth strings would need to change16:47
nelsonAhhh, but I want to see the time at home, so I don't call the wife in the middle of the night.16:47
* nelson keeps the wife happy.16:47
timelesssupposing i could convince the localizers that the strings are wrong, what would happen to the poor people who are used to them when they update and the strings reverse their meanings16:47
timelesstake the wife along :)16:47
nelsonUhhhhhh, it's easier to set the home city.16:48
nelsonBoy, I'm always surprised when somebody defends something which is "obviously" wrong to me.16:49
nelsonObviously it's not that obvious!16:49
timelessi think i've unfortunately used that feature too long16:49
timelessbut seriously16:49
nelsonStockholm syndrome.16:49
timelessi'm ok with changing home16:49
timelessbut destination doesn't work as the alternative16:49
nelsonYou've been captured by a bad user interface, and now you love it.16:49
timelesscome up w/ a second string and i'll bug the localizers until it changes16:49
nelsonOh; no, the software is wrong.16:50
nelsonIt should display your current location.16:50
timelessyeah, but fixing the software is much harder16:50
timelessit requires convincing some ui designers who believe their designs are perfect16:50
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* nelson polishes his clue bat.16:50
timelessfixing the localization only requires convincing the localizers that we're native speakers and that the people who wrote the spec weren't16:51
timelessin general, the localizers are a lot more willing to fix things16:51
timelesseither way, we need 2 strings, home is fine for the alternate one16:52
nelsonThe problem is that there are two definitions of "home":16:52
timelessbut what do you call the "current location"16:52
nelson1) where your stereo is,16:52
nelson2) where you're sleeping tonight.16:52
timelessi think "current location" might work16:52
* timeless nods16:52
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timelessagain, it's much easier to convince a localizer that they translated the wrong definition of home :)16:52
nelsonThe UI designers seem to have adopted the latter, but I think the former is better.16:52
timelessyou're right, but we still need a second string, and it can't be destination, since that's wrong16:53
nelsonYes, but ... whatever you call them, the UI displays the *other* time from the one you can easily click on on the map.16:53
* timeless nods16:53
nelsons/UI/front-page-clock/16:53
timelessunfortunately the solution to that is a feature request or 316:54
timelessand that's *much* harder to arrange16:54
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timelessthe design for this is that you open clock and ask "what time is it where <so and so> lives"16:54
nelsonWhy can't I just check the code out of SVN, fix it, and submit a patch?16:54
timelessbecause you can't check the spec out of svn16:55
timelessand if you submitted a patch which caused the app to disagree w/ the spec16:55
nelsonokay, so the design is wrong.16:55
timelessthe engineers would suffer from bugs about the impl not matching the spec16:55
shwhi there - i have a problem with flasher tool. I've flashed nokia with newest image - scirocco, and now flasher on linux seems to not see the device16:55
nelsonbecause I can always open up the clock, click on my friend's location, see his time, and then click back on my location.16:55
timelesskeep in mind16:56
timelesschanging the device time results in a bit of a cascade of messages16:56
timelessit's not free16:56
nelsonI guess that the clock isn't really designed for people who travel.16:56
timelesswhereas showing some random time in a single window is free16:56
timelessno, it isn't16:56
nelsonNahhhhh, I'm not talking about changing the device time; just the time zone.16:56
timelessit takes 4 or so operations for each place i fly16:57
nelsonNever change the device time; it's always UTC.16:57
timelessit still affects various apps16:57
timelessor should16:57
timelessignore the fact that some apps are buggy16:57
* timeless wonders if the web browser gets that right16:57
* timeless knows of at least one browser that gets it wrong16:57
nelsonTZ is just a presentation parameter.16:57
nelsonJust like currency formats, date formats, etc.16:57
timelesswhat you see is the only thing that matters (wysitottm)16:58
shwi'm using opensuse btw.16:58
timelessif the calendar you're looking at says you're in finland16:58
timelessand you know that you told it that you're in santa clara, ca16:58
timelessthen you get fairly annoyed and assume it's broken16:58
|tbb|is it possible to setup the alarmclock so that it starts everyday at 7oclock?16:58
timelesswhen in fact, it's just trusting your browser which didn't get the memo from the system16:59
timelesswhat do you mean starts? powers on?16:59
nelsonI think he wants a persistent alarm.16:59
|tbb|yeah nelson you are right!17:00
* timeless has never used the alarm17:00
|tbb|im german my english is lazy17:00
timelessisn't that what cell phones are for?17:00
nelsontimeless: 770 alarm nice!17:00
* timeless waits 3mins for it to fire17:00
* nelson is a belts and suspenders kinda guy. He sets alarm on 770 AND calls for a wakeup call.17:01
nelsonNote to self: never get a wakeup call when you're in a suite of random conference attendees.17:01
timelessheh17:01
timelessaren't wakeup calls supposed to be attached to hotel room phones?17:02
nelsonNot when you're in a flat which has been converted into a "hotel suite".17:02
timelessinteresting alarm17:04
timelessseems to have an echo17:04
timelessnot sure it'd wake me up17:04
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nelsonit gets louder.17:04
nelsonand re-rings every five minutes if you don't tell it to close or snooze.17:04
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mgedminopera on the 770 gets timezones wrong btw17:07
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minrableah, that applications page for maemo is too big.17:07
minrasuper slow too.  i cant get to the bluebox link17:08
minrais there a sleeker browser than the default?   lynx has no installation candidate.17:09
minraPackage lynx is not available, but is referred to by another package.17:10
mgedminI found links for maemo17:10
mgedminbetter than lynx17:10
minrasweet17:15
minrai need to activate swap here... that applications page is a behemoth17:15
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Guardianshould i keep17:23
Guardiandeb http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/certified/     mistral user17:23
Guardiandeb http://catalogue.tableteer.nokia.com/non-certified/ mistral user17:23
Guardianthat are in /etc/apt/sources.list when unpacking a fresh 2.1 rootstrap ?17:24
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nelsontimeless: so, any chance the spec for the clock could be checked into svn?17:53
* timeless rotfl17:54
timelessdid i say i had it?17:54
timelessi'm just saying that as processes go, there's a spec, it's secret, and anytime anything diverges from it, engineers suffer the wrath of silly spec readers17:54
timelessyou don't have to work at a company to know that process17:55
timelessit's SOP17:55
* mgedmin is lucky enough to never have encountered it17:58
timelessyes, anyone who has encountered it almost certainly regrets their encounter17:58
* mgedmin is also bold enough to split infinitives left and right17:58
timelessyeah, well, to have never encountered it is definitely better17:59
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mgedminI love this picture: http://www.gnome.org/~michael/print-button-spec.png18:00
* timeless rotf-crying18:01
timelessi suppose it could be work18:01
timelessi suppose it could be worse18:01
timelessi've read that there are big companies that have even more management processes than nokia18:01
minraare you folks using the bootmenu initfs?   From what i read, it expects an older kernel that doesnt support 2GB cards18:02
nelsontimeless: yeah, I know.18:03
Jaffakoen: apparently Canola is supposed to do UPnP: https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/?func=detail&atid=532&aid=146&group_id=12518:04
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koenJaffa: features are a bit irrelevant if it doesn't run, don't you think?18:10
Takcanola runs fine for me18:11
dwdkoen: Who cares if it works? It's pretty...18:11
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koenit's so pretty it takes 80% cpu when it isn't running18:11
timelessthat's not too bad, i've had apps use more :)18:11
timelessand do less :)18:11
Takmaybe it's indexing your media?18:11
X-FadeYeah, it was indexing my rather large maemo-mapper images dir :)18:12
X-FadeThat took a while.18:13
Takdid that to me too ;-)18:13
koenhmmm18:13
koenhaving 500MB of mm maps would take a while I guess18:13
Tak"Wtf is taking so long?  Ok, finally, it's done...what are all these pictures it found?  Oh...LOL!"18:14
X-FadeYeah, I removed the /media/mmc1 dir in the configurator.18:14
koenthe 'configurater' crashes opera over here18:14
Takthe file management thing in the configurator needs some love18:15
X-Fadeyeah, you have to wait untill the indexes is done..18:15
X-Fadeindexer even.18:15
koenmedia streamer "just works" and will be open source (apparently)18:15
koenwhich makes it infinately better as canola IMO18:15
minramplayer ... handles so many formats...18:16
X-Fadekoen: "Will be open source" will not happen overnight? :)18:16
koenheh18:16
X-FadeBut you can always voice your opinion here  https://garage.maemo.org/forum/forum.php?thread_id=298&forum_id=25118:17
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_matthias_why is it that my app installer says ... unable to install canola18:25
_matthias_but then its installed18:25
minraHello philipl , Milhouse, o_918:25
_matthias_but does not work ;(18:25
minracan you enable a log for app installer?18:26
JaffaMenu > Tools > Log...18:26
Takyou need to reboot after installing it18:27
_matthias_Errors were encountered while processing: libsdl-ttf2.0-......18:27
_matthias_i will uninstall sdl and stuff and try again18:29
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kenderhello18:31
o_9hello minra18:31
minrawowww xmame!  https://garage.maemo.org/projects/xmame18:32
* minra frolics18:33
* Tak grins18:33
Takit's in the extras repo as well18:33
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minrai still am using the internal flash for my root filesystem and it is pretty full.  can i delete the debs in archives  13525   /var/cache/apt/archives18:48
JaffaYep18:48
Jaffa`apt-get clean' will do it for you18:48
minrathanks.  looks like i will try the boot manager with the fast write kernel, once i get the nerve to flash the system18:49
minrathe multi-block write kernel looks very nice - nearly 10x the speed for writes to a newish mmc card (2gb kingston) and then space worries will be over18:50
bstockok, so i'm trying to get canola running... and getting this error when i launch from CLI: GLIB WARNING ** default - Unable to find a plugin to handle filter 'Controller/Containter'18:51
minrawill also be great to be able to swap systems just by swapping memory cards...18:51
Takbstock: reboot18:51
bstockcool reboot worked, thx18:53
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kenderwhat does happen if the flashing proccess fails?19:00
_matthias_depends on when kender  ;)19:00
_matthias_but i think in worst case you could brick your device and you would have to send it to nokia, them having it flashed for you19:01
kenderso, the guarranty will cover it?19:01
_matthias_kender: not sure but there were people who had to send their devices in and i think they got it back ;)19:03
kenderok19:03
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minraif flashing breaks, dont reboot.  correct?  instead re-flash.,19:06
timelessi'm not sure if it's guaranteed19:07
timelessthere's sure a lot of stuff that says "don't unplug your device while flashing"19:07
kenderbut, how you know that if it's bad flashed?19:07
kendertimeless, ...19:08
timelessi suspect if you manage to brick your device repeatedly and it's clear that you're negligent (flashing w/o enough battery, or pulling the plug while flashing or...) that they might have the right to say it's your fault19:08
timelessthe instructions are pretty clear and should be easy to follow19:08
timelessyou have a charged device, it isn't plugged into the charger, you don't unplug the usb cable while flashing19:09
timelessprobably a good idea to make sure your flash host doesn't die while you flash :)19:09
timeless(use a laptop ;-)19:09
timelessbut i'm just an end user who has read pieces of the user guide19:10
timelesswhat do i know? :)19:10
kenderxDD19:10
mgedminthere's a user guide?19:11
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timelessnds2.nokia.com/files/support/nam/phones/guides/770_US_en.PDF - Similar pages - Note this19:13
* timeless ponders19:14
timelessi didn't know the 770 was a phone19:14
timelessoh well19:14
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mgedminan Internet Phone (ta-dam!)19:15
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jtraoh well, its a phone company, thats why the website shows in Products menu: Latest Phones | All Phones | Upcoming Phones | Accessories | Technologies19:18
jtrawhen I went there I was pretty confused that I resorted to use search instead of finding it in myriads of phone listings19:20
TakLOL - http://www.sydlexia.com/girlsofnes.htm19:20
bstocktak is a digger ;)19:22
_matthias_seems that something called libsoup2.2.-8 would not want to be installed on my 77019:22
Takindeed19:22
bstockso should it take canola forever to play a video, or will the counter thing just spin if it can't play?19:24
Milhouseif the screen goes black, it will either play eventually or the counter will spin forever (it's a bit random like that)19:25
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bstockheh yeah.. seems to just be spinning19:26
bstockis there a way to install xtra codecs easily?19:26
Takdo you have mplayer installed?19:26
bstockindeed19:26
MilhouseI take that back - if the screen goes black it may play eventually or it will remain black forever... if you have the spinning thing it will may eventually produce an error19:26
Milhouseyou can add extra codecs to tversity and have it transcode... that's possibly the easiest option for the time being until such time as canola supports mplayer (assuming it ever will support mplayer)19:27
Takeh?19:28
TakI thought canola was using mplayer on the backend?19:28
Takor do you mean for upnp kind of thing?19:28
Milhousei thought it was using the original video player - the one limited to 358x208 resolution19:28
Milhousei don't have mplayer installed19:29
bstocki know the regular video player has shit for codecs19:29
Milhouse(recent reflash...)19:29
Milhousewouldn't canola have to have specific support for mplayer?19:29
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Milhousenever seen it mentioned it supports mplayer - to me, canola is just a new gui for the standard (and feature limited) audio and video players19:31
Milhouse:(19:31
bstockhmm, so i should take the videos i have and use transcode to get them in a good format for the nokia19:32
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Milhousethe only success I've had so far is to install the ffdshow codec in TVersity and transcode to 358x208 max video resolution19:35
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Milhousehowever, video display on the 770 is hit and miss - sometimes a video will display, sometimes i'll be left with a black screen. other videos won't work at all.19:36
bstockhmm, maybe i'll look at making some transcode scripts19:38
Jaffabstock: they exist already (<plug>http://www.bleb.org/software/770/#encode</plug>)19:38
bstocknice19:39
Jaffamore on the wiki in the VideoEncoding page19:42
Jaffabstock: http://maemo.org/maemowiki/VideoEncoding19:43
tigertthe web service has worked nicely19:47
Jaffata :)19:48
* Jaffa hooked in the queue sizes into mrtg yesterday: http://badger.bleb.org/mrtg/vidconvert.html19:48
saerdnaerlive convert to stream would also be nice ;-)19:48
tigertyours? ;)19:48
saerdnaerno19:48
Jaffatigert: yeah - currently 570 videos in the results folder, 0 items in the queue.19:49
tigertno, jaffa's i mean19:49
tigerti bet you get to see interesting shit ;)19:49
Jaffasaerdnaer: the 770's Video Player can play back suitable AVIs in a stream19:49
JaffaMost of it's YouTube, so I don't bother.19:49
tigertyeah19:50
JaffaYou get some really dumb people putting crap into the URL field19:50
Jaffa"nokiasoftwareupdate" was one today, I mean - wtf?!19:50
JaffaAnd people trying to access password protected porn19:50
Milhouseyeah sorry about that ;)19:50
tigert"PARIS HILTON" ? ;)19:50
JaffaMilhouse: I wouldn't mind if you shared the p/w in the URL ;-)19:51
saerdnaeryes, i know, but if i use this webservice i have always wait until it is converted19:51
Jaffatigert: I think there've been a couple of "sex"19:51
tigert"it has a text field" = it must be search!!19:51
Jaffasaerdnaer: ah, yeah - so stream the result before the conversion's finished. Problem with that is ensuring the video player doesn't just stop if the conversion's going slow19:51
JaffaDavid Chess' diary has a text field with a changing label above it, he collates the best results and publishes them19:52
Milhousehttp://www.theinquirer.org/default.aspx?article=36065 - interesting from a future 770/870 GPS point of view19:53
Milhouse"The company seems to think that "specialised devices" -actually dumbed-down devices with limited functionality- are the future."19:53
saerdnaerhas someone already used a usb to serial converter with an n700?19:53
Jaffahttp://www.davidchess.com/words/log.html19:54
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_matthias_i'm giving up playing with my canola hickups ... i better just reflash my device19:55
_matthias_anybody knows where i can find curl/libcurl ... no longer in app catalouge it seems19:56
saerdnaer2is canola already out?19:56
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_matthias_saerdnaer: jep ;)19:57
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* Jaffa builds a new version of Sylpheed with better menu fixes20:03
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nelsonTiger Direct catalog I received today has the 770 in the top left of the cover.20:37
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kendernelson, so, they aren't going to "publicate" the new version of the nokia 770 in Xmas20:43
nelsonI think Christmas catalogs lacking the 870 are a good sign that they don't expect to sell any.20:50
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MilhouseAny garage system admins here? Could you check the garage@maemo.org mail queue as new account activation in Garage isn't working - have sent a feedback email...21:17
guerbyhi, anyone with experience using bkdd and bluetooth keyboard with Nokia 770?21:25
Robot101Milhouse: it's reasonable to assume they're in .fi, where it's already past 9pm21:26
Robot101Milhouse: you'll probably need to wait to tomorrow21:26
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arjany Canola developers in here?21:32
arjanyone awake in here? ;-)21:34
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Takwe should be, we have c0ffee21:34
arj:)21:34
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c0ffeebwahahaah21:46
c0ffeethat was funny21:46
Taklame joke: $0.00.    making somebody stop what they're doing and scan the channel for a random nick highlight: priceless21:47
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Milhouseah yes true - but also hoping they'll review this irc when they get in :)21:53
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arjstill no Canola dudes here?22:20
Tybstari'd be hiding if i were them. their blogs were mobbed. :)22:21
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ian_brasilTybstar: how so..you have a link?22:43
|tbb|how do i find out which distibution ive got installed?22:45
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Tak|tbb|: you don't remember?22:52
|tbb|i mean i have used the flash tool from nokia and the 3.2006 image22:53
|tbb|this means i have scirocco?22:54
|tbb|and why my hostname still change the name  by hisself22:55
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arjI was wondering the same thing22:56
|tbb|an at least why i no 1 will port macchanger for me ;)22:58
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bstockanyone know a good way to refresh the canola database without removing and adding the folder from the media collection?23:10
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Takeek23:12
Takdoes it really not refresh?23:12
bstockif i add content into a folder currently set in the media collection, i have to go to the 'configure canola' and remove/re-add the folder23:13
bstockor if i move a file into a subfolder23:13
Takwow, that really sucks23:13
bstockyeah23:13
bstockmaybe if i rebooted my nokia it would refresh..23:13
bstockbut that takes longer23:13
bstockdoes the 3.2006 image have a lot more content then what came on my nokia? i know it has the 2006 OS but not sure which one23:15
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minraremoo23:26
minrais anybody using a 2GB Kingston High-Speed RS-MMC?  I am wondering what kernel to install23:27
TakI am23:27
Takthe stock scirocco kernel works fine for me23:27
minrayou using the multiblock write kernel ?23:28
Takbut I don't need all your fancy-schmancy multiblock writes and nfs client support23:28
minrawell if i activate swap, i want the kernel that can write at 3plus MB/sec and not at 33OkB/sec as reported on a website23:29
minraah23:29
minrado you use swap?23:29
Takyes23:31
arjTak: how did you install/use the scirocco kernel?23:32
Takby flashing the scirocco image23:32
arjdoes that upgrade applications + kernel or only kernel?23:32
Takthe whole root fs23:33
arjnice, did you build it yourself or can one download it somewhere?23:33
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Takheh23:33
Takhttp://www.maemo.org/downloads/nokia_77023:35
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minrai think what i want to do is install bootmenu and get another mmc card so i can boot to a dev system or swap cards and boot to a productive system23:36
* MDK tries to remember when he has seen an over-staffed open-source project last time...23:36
minrabtw i really need festival or at least /usr/bin/play to use kismet23:36
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MDKbleh23:36
MDKsorry23:36
arjTak: is scirocco, 2006.39-14?23:37
Takiirc23:37
Takit's the latest 2006 release23:37
arjok, I'm running that but it says mistral everywhere23:37
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|tbb|bbl23:48
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minrai am so paranoid someone is going to steal my 77023:51
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spectminra: and where are you from? :)23:52
minrai am in germany, born in colorado, usa23:52
minrathe germans have a saying "money alone does not make one happy"23:53
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minrato which i respond "you also need to know what to buy"w23:53
spectminra: Well i think in germany it's more safe to get outside with 770 :)23:53
spectminra: I'm from poland :P23:53
Takit's ok - I'm in texas, and everybody thinks mine's a phone23:54
Takand nobody would want to steal it because, by phone standards, it's huge and clunky23:54
minrayeah but dont they just drop dead when they see the screen?23:54
Taksure, but the people I show it off to aren't people who will steal it23:55
arj:)23:56
minraspect, um... Milo pana23:56
spectminra: Miło pana poznać? - means nice to meet you:)23:57
minrai would love to port things to 770.... festival speech synth would be nice for wardriving23:58
spectminra: get scratchbox and rock on :)23:58
minraperl... dillo web browser... lopster opennap client...23:58
minrayeah i want to do it23:59

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