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| digitalsky | another question about mic2 | 01:01 |
|---|---|---|
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| digitalsky | anyone know why the mic2 deb package installs the main scripts into /usr/local/bin and not /usr/bin? Is there anyway to change it so that they install in the latter directory? (I looked at debian/rules and Makefile but couldn't figure out why) | 01:02 |
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| ejones2 | Hi all, wondering where I can get an image for the latest netbook images. I see there is an update for netbooks 1.2.0.3. When i look at http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/trunk/latest/images/ I only see two arm builds, no netbook. | 02:16 |
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| CosmoHill | cyas | 02:59 |
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| eplanit | what is the best source of information for downloading, customizing, building meego ivi? | 08:37 |
| eplanit | i'm on ubuntu, btw | 08:38 |
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| pebcak | moin btw | 11:21 |
| Stskeeps | moin | 11:21 |
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| b3hnam | Is meego available for tablet Archs 7c home ? ( arm ) | 11:49 |
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| dm8tbr | b3hnam: that's a rockchip, isn't it? | 11:58 |
| b3hnam | dm8tbr: rockship ?? | 11:59 |
| dm8tbr | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockchip | 11:59 |
| b3hnam | dm8tbr: yes ARM 9 CPU by Rockchip | 12:02 |
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| b3hnam | dm8tbr: RK2818 800 MHz | 12:03 |
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| dm8tbr | your best bet would be cooking your own hardware adaptation based on Mer for armv6 | 12:04 |
| dm8tbr | err armv5 even | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | arm9 is like armv4t | 12:05 |
| Stskeeps | isn't it | 12:05 |
| * Stskeeps gets confused | 12:05 | |
| Stskeeps | ah, yes, armv5 | 12:05 |
| dm8tbr | the all knowing pile says ARMv5TEJ | 12:05 |
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| Stskeeps | there's no armv5 mer (yet..) | 12:07 |
| dm8tbr | ah, then driving armv5 too :) | 12:07 |
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| b3hnam | Sorry a little I confused :) | 12:08 |
| b3hnam | Is it it available ? | 12:08 |
| b3hnam | How can I start ? | 12:08 |
| dm8tbr | no it's not | 12:09 |
| dm8tbr | there would be lot's of work | 12:09 |
| dm8tbr | it's possible though, with skills and time | 12:09 |
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| b3hnam | dm8tbr: is any document for this ? | 12:10 |
| b3hnam | dm8tbr: How can I start ? | 12:10 |
| Stskeeps | is those devices even hackable | 12:10 |
| Stskeeps | ? | 12:10 |
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| dm8tbr | Stskeeps: rockchip usually is | 12:20 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 12:20 |
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| Stskeeps | i'm actually planning on a armv4t port because i'd like to do some dumphone experiments with my freerunner | 12:20 |
| dm8tbr | archos provide kernel sources (a rarity when it comes to RK hardware...) | 12:20 |
| Stskeeps | just to gain experience in that | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | but frankly, it's really easy for people to start a port :P | 12:21 |
| thiago | Qt doesn't support ARMv4T | 12:21 |
| thiago | the atomics may not compile | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 12:21 |
| thiago | if that happens, ping me and I can take a look | 12:21 |
| thiago | there might be a solution | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | will do | 12:21 |
| Stskeeps | dm8tbr: https://gitorious.org/merproject/project-core/blobs/master/armv6l/_config.in , https://gitorious.org/merproject/project-core/blobs/master/armv6l/packages.xml.in | 12:22 |
| Stskeeps | dm8tbr: that's practically it + some obs handwaving | 12:22 |
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| dm8tbr | Stskeeps: that's for b3hnam if he wants :) | 12:23 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 12:23 |
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| dm8tbr | Stskeeps: I don't have RK hardware even | 12:23 |
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| Stskeeps | dm8tbr: how cheap are those home tablets anyway | 12:23 |
| dm8tbr | the home line is cheap chines crap, prolly below 100 currency units (eu/us) | 12:23 |
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| Stskeeps | ok | 12:24 |
| b3hnam | dm8tbr: tnx | 12:24 |
| * dm8tbr prefers the 'Internet Tablet' line with the TI SoCs | 12:24 | |
| Stskeeps | dm8tbr: did you ever get new archos tablet after it got lost? | 12:24 |
| dm8tbr | Stskeeps: no, I still have a A32 that is also gen8 | 12:24 |
| Stskeeps | k | 12:24 |
| dm8tbr | it's a pain as it's so small though ;) | 12:25 |
| dm8tbr | I was thinking of getting an gen9, that's OMAP4 | 12:25 |
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| b3hnam | dm8tbr: should I port to ARMv4T ? | 12:30 |
| b3hnam | dm8tbr: where should I start ? I am not a meego user and I am new in meego | 12:30 |
| b3hnam | is there any documentation ? | 12:30 |
| dm8tbr | b3hnam: it's an armv5tej | 12:30 |
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| dm8tbr | b3hnam: join #mer it's more on topic there | 12:30 |
| b3hnam | tnx | 12:31 |
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| berndhs | morning | 16:27 |
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| Lilltiger | I am trying to mount a NFS share on my Nokia N9, but when mounting as root i get a permission denied from bindresvport, but i cant find an /etc/hosts.allow file, so where is the rights for the deamons set? | 16:39 |
| SpeedEvil | Root does not on n9 have all permissions. | 16:41 |
| SpeedEvil | It is constrained by the security infrastructure. | 16:41 |
| Lilltiger | but why would the include the NFS module if you are unable to use it? | 16:41 |
| SpeedEvil | Also - you may find better response over in #harmattan | 16:42 |
| Lilltiger | ok | 16:42 |
| SpeedEvil | http://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Activities_blocked_by_the_N9_and_N950_security_policy | 16:42 |
| Lilltiger | ohh that sucks :( | 16:43 |
| Lilltiger | Nokia is such retards, add a crappy "security" function that all it does is prevent users from doing perfectly valid things. While hardly making it harder for attakers to screw you up. | 16:45 |
| RST38h | Lilltiger: You are not their customer. Phone service providers are. | 16:45 |
| RST38h | Lilltiger: You are the goods :) | 16:45 |
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| CosmoHill | hey RST38h and berndhs | 17:57 |
| CosmoHill | and SpeedEvil | 17:58 |
| berndhs | another exciting day | 17:59 |
| npm_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV2QJiDGQvI&feature=related | 17:59 |
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| npm | too bad the watch is probably bigger than one of those little HP webos phones | 18:00 |
| npm | http://wiki.meego.com/User:Javispedro/Activities_blocked_by_the_N9_and_N950_security_policy is only half the story and half-the-perspective and somewhat misrepresents things IMHO | 18:04 |
| npm | for example in "Privileges not available" -- aren't those privs specifiable in an aegis manifest? | 18:05 |
| npm | How else would you create a secure platform? | 18:05 |
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| SpeedEvil | Some of them are, I think, some are not. | 18:09 |
| SpeedEvil | It's complex, and that page as I understand it is slightly misleading. | 18:09 |
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| SpeedEvil | There are - as I understand it - three seperate classes. | 18:09 |
| npm | i can understand being pissed off by being blocked by stuff all the time | 18:09 |
| SpeedEvil | The set of permissions you can get by running your app on the command line. | 18:09 |
| npm | that is simply not going to happen | 18:09 |
| SpeedEvil | (without proper installation) | 18:10 |
| npm | there is no manifest for a commandline | 18:10 |
| npm | how can you validate and write down all it's permissions w/o manifest? | 18:10 |
| SpeedEvil | The set of permissions you can get if you compile it yourself, and generate the package yourself. | 18:10 |
| SpeedEvil | The set of permissions you can get through OVI. | 18:10 |
| SpeedEvil | And lastly - the set of permissions you can't ever get. | 18:10 |
| npm | what is annoying is that there isn't a real root account that can simply bypass everything, for debug/devel purposes | 18:10 |
| SpeedEvil | (without replacing the kernel) | 18:10 |
| SpeedEvil | This last set includes stuff like making the notification light flash, loading modules, ... | 18:11 |
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| npm | hm so does ovi limit the set of permissions too restrictive?? seems like some of the perms shouldn't be frobbed by an app, such as certificates etc | 18:11 |
| npm | seems like if you want to load modules and stuff, just run meego ce ... | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | develsh permissions == OVIstore permissions | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | and javispedro's page tried to list only those permissions that are *NOT* available either way | 18:13 |
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| npm | but i see stuff in the list i thought could be accessed e.g.. GRP::pulse ... i can see why GRP::pulse-rt wouldn't be. Easiest DOS on the planet. | 18:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | and forbidding loading of modules is completely insane in my book, at least if those modules are "available" from Nokia. Creating own modules OTOH and loading them obviously defeats all security | 18:15 |
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| npm | yeah. perhaps it's a bug? harmattan is quite all-singing and dancing so you can't expect everything to be perfect right away. | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | not allowing a user app to request a certain LED Pattern* form mce via dbus msg is plain idiocy, as that's why mce got this function so arbitrary apps can make the LED blink patterns defined in mce.ini, in a controlled clearly defined and threat-safe manner | 18:18 |
| npm | what i see in the list of forbidden stuff is anything that could undermine "resource policy manager" ... and dbus would be a big part of that. | 18:19 |
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| npm | seems like a bug where they need to be convinced it's a needed function and then make a change to add a limited way of accessing just that fnality w/o fully exposing dbus | 18:19 |
| npm | for example GRP::audio is on there because you're supposed to go through pulseaudio (the suck) | 18:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's all already there, it's exactly this functionality aka message that is forbidden on dbus | 18:20 |
| npm | hm. well then that sounds like even more of a bug | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | a bug in paegis | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | yes | 18:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and that's what this page is all about | 18:21 |
| npm | note that i'm not happy with all of it. like i'd love to be able to access GRP::audio directly and not have pulseaudio suckage in there at all | 18:21 |
| npm | but if i want that, i guess i can put meego-ce on it. | 18:21 |
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| npm | like this little bit of awesomeness: http://midi-clorianos.blogspot.com/2011/10/vmpk-fluidsynth-010-released.html would be even more awesome if pulseaudio could step out of the way and quit using the precious CPU as a mixer | 18:23 |
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| npm | (the app makes a good handwarmer as well) | 18:24 |
| berndhs | what I dont like about all these trusted entity security models is that there are too damn many trusted agents | 18:24 |
| berndhs | its not a political problem, its engineering, this can never work | 18:24 |
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| npm | not sure if i get what you mean.... too many ones to learn so nobody can become expert at any particular one? | 18:26 |
| berndhs | no, too many to stay trustworthy | 18:27 |
| berndhs | some of them will behave badly, its just a matter of time | 18:27 |
| npm | microsoft seems to have done fine w/ that model :-) | 18:28 |
| berndhs | this isn't a specific aegis issue, it is about the concept of having agents that are perpetually trusted | 18:28 |
| berndhs | no its not fine, it breaks every day | 18:28 |
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| berndhs | company data and personal data are compromised all the time, i don't call that "working" for the security models | 18:28 |
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| npm | i know it's not fine, but nobody cares. doctors regularly kill their patients and nobody cares either... | 18:29 |
| berndhs | right | 18:29 |
| npm | but we're here because we don't believe in that | 18:29 |
| berndhs | but the concept of trusted agents is broken from the start | 18:29 |
| npm | but i can't expect swine to suddenly stop grunting and digging in shit | 18:30 |
| berndhs | I do expect security professionals to eventually admit that their model is broken | 18:30 |
| npm | doctors don't admit their model is broken., capitalists don't admit their model is broken. why would security professionals. they make money on their own broken systems they create | 18:31 |
| berndhs | because they are professionals ? | 18:31 |
| npm | yes, that is the definition of professionalism | 18:31 |
| berndhs | airplane engineers admit when their aircraft dont fly | 18:32 |
| npm | it's right up there with whore | 18:32 |
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| npm | so when people stop getting paid to lie or create broken systems they profit from... that's when change will happen | 18:32 |
| berndhs | or when someone can show a system that isn't as broken | 18:32 |
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| berndhs | i don't care who makes how much money off it, that's fine with me | 18:33 |
| npm | " airplane engineers admit when their aircraft dont fly " -- you mean like http://www.examiner.com/law-enforcement-in-national/virtual-fence-fiasco-along-u-s-mexico-border | 18:33 |
| npm | airplane engineers can't even build a fence | 18:34 |
| berndhs | yeah its not an airplane | 18:35 |
| dm8tbr | I doubt that was aeronautical engineers... | 18:35 |
| npm | and our own military can't keep viruses out of their remote controlled drones. but are totally covering up the extent of the fiasco | 18:35 |
| npm | and drones are the domain of airplane engineers | 18:35 |
| berndhs | i am sure the drones fly | 18:35 |
| npm | yes, one day they'll fly and explode somewhere they aren't supposed to | 18:36 |
| * RST38h yawns and notes how history repeats itself | 18:37 | |
| berndhs | the way out of this is to admit that there will be failures, and engineer the system to deal with them | 18:37 |
| berndhs | rather than pretend you can make a failure-proof boundary | 18:38 |
| npm | i think that's implicit. the difference is that reality needs to be marketed as well. | 18:38 |
| berndhs | you will have passwords compromised, and illegal immigration | 18:39 |
| berndhs | it's not implicit, most people act as if total security can be achieved if the walls are high enough | 18:39 |
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| npm | i'm not a proponent of the fence. it's just a good example of what happens when "aeronautical engineers" of the US military-industrial complex get involved in engineering. | 18:39 |
| npm | they should stick to $1000.00 toilet seats | 18:40 |
| RST38h | high enough walls do work, you know? | 18:40 |
| berndhs | not forever | 18:40 |
| RST38h | especially if you have got a few gatling guns on them | 18:41 |
| berndhs | look at the Great Wall of China, look at the Berlin Wall | 18:41 |
| RST38h | for as long as the other side does not figure out how to traverse them | 18:41 |
| berndhs | the Berlin Wall had plenty of machine guns, it failed | 18:41 |
| RST38h | Both GWoC and the Berlin Wall were built to keep people INSIDE | 18:41 |
| RST38h | So, bad comparison. | 18:42 |
| berndhs | the Berlin Wall was made for both directions | 18:42 |
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| RST38h | berndhs: not really, no. | 18:42 |
| berndhs | it didn't keep people inside, and it didn't protect the state | 18:42 |
| RST38h | berndhs: it did keep people inside | 18:42 |
| RST38h | berndhs: for as long as the state that wanted to keep them inside existed | 18:42 |
| berndhs | for a relatively short time | 18:43 |
| berndhs | then the state collapsed | 18:43 |
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| RST38h | berndhs: which had nothign to do with the wall itself | 18:43 |
| berndhs | yes it did actually | 18:43 |
| RST38h | ...and just shows us how important it is to see the whole picture | 18:43 |
| berndhs | they failure was more massive because they relied on near-total containment of the people | 18:43 |
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| RST38h | you do know that the Berlin was has been located...ummm...inside the country? :) | 18:44 |
| berndhs | I know where these walls were yes | 18:44 |
| RST38h | and that GDR had large boundaries with other countries, unwalled? | 18:44 |
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| berndhs | seen them, lived on the western side of it | 18:44 |
| berndhs | you don't have to educate me on european geography :) | 18:45 |
| RST38h | then why continue fapping at the symbol that, at the end, had nothing to do with GDR's demise? | 18:45 |
| npm | berndhs: finally thought of a good example of aircraft engineers not admitting failure (because it is part of military contracting where there are no checks and balances on the lies being told,and no free market and press to vet their bullshit): http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2011/08/despite_65_billion_investment.html | 18:45 |
| berndhs | the wall is an example of their strategy | 18:46 |
| berndhs | and that strategy did have to do with their demise | 18:46 |
| RST38h | the wall was a tactic, not a trategy | 18:47 |
| RST38h | they built it in haste to prevent berliners crossing over into West Berlin | 18:47 |
| berndhs | yeah, tactic for several decades :) | 18:47 |
| RST38h | correct | 18:47 |
| berndhs | ok tactic that became strategy | 18:47 |
| RST38h | in fact, I can hardly thing of *anything* Soviets or their allies have ever donethat could qualify as strategy | 18:48 |
| RST38h | Which is probably one of reasons they so utterly failed at the end | 18:48 |
| npm | actually the journalists have been doing their jobs, but the corrupticrats keep trying to sell us expensive junk "In 2009, the Washington Post noted early structural deficiencies and computer flaws with the F-22s, as well as problems with the jet’s radar-absorbent coating, which required costly and time-consuming maintenance." | 18:48 |
| npm | The fleet of 158 F-22 planes, at $412 million each, has yet to see a single day of combat. | 18:48 |
| berndhs | Soviet strategy wasn't that much different from Czarist strategy | 18:48 |
| RST38h | 70 years of plugging the holes with corks of various sizes and shapes... | 18:48 |
| berndhs | its all imperial Russia basically | 18:49 |
| * RST38h has not lived in Imperial Russia, so he cannot relate | 18:49 | |
| berndhs | pretty much the same as Imperial Anything :) | 18:49 |
| dm8tbr | wow I didn't expect #meego to deteriorate into #politics ... | 18:50 |
| RST38h | Although good old Nikolai II must have screwed things up pretty badly, to end up the way he did | 18:50 |
| berndhs | berndhs: right, there isn't enough competition | 18:50 |
| berndhs | npm: not enough competition | 18:50 |
| RST38h | berndhs: IMperial Britain worked out pretty well for a long while | 18:50 |
| berndhs | RST38h: depends on who you ask | 18:50 |
| RST38h | berndhs: So did Ottoman and Austrohungarian empires | 18:51 |
| berndhs | for the imperial side sure, and to some extent for the imperial citizens | 18:51 |
| RST38h | berndhs: I am not going to "ask", just looking at how long it existed and how many problems (unrest, civil wars, etc) it had | 18:51 |
| RST38h | berndhs: that is the only side there is, if we are talking about imperial success | 18:52 |
| npm | there also isn't enough competition in OSes. and so much force to kill off viable ones before they can challenge the system | 18:52 |
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| berndhs | anyway, that's what bothers me about these security systems, that they don't want to deal with the inevitable failures and pretend there won't be any | 18:54 |
| berndhs | how many trusted certificates are hard coded in all browsers, and how of those many companies have you even heard of ? | 18:55 |
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| npm | true. but is it really a problem anymore?? http://www.meegoexperts.com/2011/10/meego-harmattan-kernel-sources-published-nokia-n9-n950/ | 18:55 |
| RST38h | berndhs: Sorry, are you talking about Aegis? | 18:55 |
| npm | "So now you can compile this kernel, add the hack to disable aegis, flash the kernel and what you have is a Aegis security free MeeGo Harmattan Device." | 18:55 |
| npm | next! | 18:55 |
| berndhs | i am talking about the approach to security that assumes trusted agents will stay trustworthy | 18:56 |
| RST38h | npm: sorry it does not work this way | 18:56 |
| npm | why? | 18:56 |
| npm | same way it would for meego ce. | 18:56 |
| RST38h | npm: your userland will check kernel checksum and stop working when the checksum is wrong. | 18:56 |
| npm | of course would it work w/ ovi store? no | 18:56 |
| RST38h | someone tried already | 18:56 |
| RST38h | berndhs: Then you should reconsider what you think is a goal of this system | 18:56 |
| npm | but you wouldn't be running harmattan stuff on this non-harmattan systenm | 18:57 |
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| berndhs | RST38h: ti will fail for the state goals and for the real goals :) | 18:57 |
| RST38h | berndhs: Will you agree with the statement "Success of X is measured by how well X addresses its implementation goal"? | 18:57 |
| npm | but you could for example, use it to run a real-time midi synth without pulseaudio preventing real time audio | 18:57 |
| berndhs | s/state/stated/ | 18:57 |
| infobot | berndhs meant: RST38h: ti will fail for the stated goals and for the real goals :) | 18:57 |
| RST38h | berndhs: but will you agree with the statement above? | 18:58 |
| SpeedEvil | npm: currently 'aegisfs' goes read-only. | 18:58 |
| berndhs | what is the point of that? I am talking about a concept, not aegis in particular | 18:59 |
| SpeedEvil | npm: which makes basically all messaging and SMS stop working. | 18:59 |
| npm | i never said it would work as a phone :-) | 18:59 |
| npm | my example was that it might work as a synth. of course why use a n9/n950 for that when you can buy a cheap x86 tablet and do the same | 19:00 |
| berndhs | unless of course you assume the goals of aegis have nothing to do with security of any kind | 19:00 |
| RST38h | berndhs: my statement applies to concepts as well | 19:00 |
| RST38h | berndhs: There is a GOAL all these security schemes are trying to reach | 19:00 |
| SpeedEvil | berndhs: Aegis - as implemented on the n9 is sort-of-half-done. | 19:00 |
| RST38h | And they actually do. It is just not the same goal as the one you have in mind. | 19:00 |
| SpeedEvil | berndhs: It neither implements its final goals - partly due to policy - or can be 'gotten out of the way' in an acceptable manner. | 19:01 |
| npm | it is always good to have a specific "threat model" in place before designing a security sysstem | 19:01 |
| berndhs | but this discussion illustrates the wider context - everyone has already given up | 19:01 |
| npm | so perhaps that needs to be better defined so as to drive a correct architecture | 19:01 |
| SpeedEvil | The threat model was concieved at the time that aegis was imagined to be rolling out to half a billion phones. | 19:01 |
| npm | but won't meltemi eventually roll out to all those phones? | 19:02 |
| RST38h | berndhs: not everybody | 19:02 |
| npm | and woulnd't it probably have some derivative of aegis (he speculates, wishing he knew more about meltemi or could work on it :-) ) | 19:02 |
| RST38h | berndhs: The lawyers have not given up and all these schemes serve the one and only purpose - to satisfy the lawyers by having documentation saying "we have got a security system in place" | 19:03 |
| RST38h | So, yes, Aegis et al reach their goal | 19:03 |
| SpeedEvil | I'd pay a modest amount more for a phone with a properly implemented user security system. | 19:03 |
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| SpeedEvil | Aegis has about 99% of the stuff to get there. | 19:03 |
| npm | not really lawyers, but the carriers that pay them and expect some security in place | 19:03 |
| RST38h | Speed: You and another dozen of geeks | 19:03 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: Indeed | 19:04 |
| RST38h | Speed: On the other side of the scales is the rest of humanity | 19:04 |
| RST38h | Speed: I went to a BestBuy store in the US yesterday | 19:04 |
| * SpeedEvil needs to eat more pies then. | 19:04 | |
| RST38h | Speed: half the ANdroid tablets on display are logged into some peoples' accounts | 19:04 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: Joy. | 19:04 |
| RST38h | Speed: Note that I could even BUY apps from the ANdroid market | 19:04 |
| SpeedEvil | Did you? | 19:04 |
| RST38h | Speed: Nah | 19:05 |
| RST38h | Speed: No reason to make idiots' life even worse than it is :) | 19:05 |
| SpeedEvil | I love the recent ruling in the US about cellphones. | 19:05 |
| npm | which | 19:05 |
| SpeedEvil | Arrested for anything - the cellphone is in 'plain sight' - and the cops can dig through the entire contents if they choose. | 19:06 |
| SpeedEvil | It's an 'open box' of information. | 19:06 |
| RST38h | what if it is not in plain sight? | 19:06 |
| RST38h | will they still be able to dig through it, just not in plain sight? :) | 19:06 |
| npm | oh that | 19:06 |
| berndhs | the trick then is to arrest you while you're talking on the phone | 19:06 |
| npm | yeah. sounds like they've created a market for a secured phone with an encrypted filesystem | 19:07 |
| berndhs | and the reason for the arrest is that you crossed the street while on the phone | 19:07 |
| RST38h | Speed: Anyway, it is just part of the wider trend. The "law enforcement" has got all the power of legislative government branch on its side, legislating laws "to make things safer" | 19:07 |
| npm | sounds like a reason to take the data out of plain sight | 19:07 |
| RST38h | Speed: The rest of us have got nothing. | 19:08 |
| npm | and they can just look at your lockscreen | 19:08 |
| RST38h | Speed: So, the other side keeps pushing general population back,until a breakage point, I guess | 19:08 |
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| RST38h | Speed: Which has been nicely illustrated by the recent UK riots :) | 19:09 |
| npm | or flying airplanes into skyscrapers | 19:09 |
| RST38h | npm:in a way,although there was a different mechanism at work there | 19:09 |
| npm | not really. USA killed 30,000 retreating soldiers in Gulf War -- soldiers that were marching back to baghdad to overthrow saddam hussein | 19:10 |
| npm | which would have resulted in nationalized oil companies intead of us oil companies in iraq | 19:11 |
| berndhs | i dont think that had much to do with it | 19:11 |
| npm | http://nielsmayer.com/roller//NielsMayer/entry/bottom_line_regarding_war_on | 19:11 |
| RST38h | The keyword is "would" | 19:11 |
| RST38h | You do not really know. | 19:11 |
| berndhs | airplanes in skyscrapers is more of a Saudi issue | 19:11 |
| RST38h | Anyway, 30k able-bodied muslim men less is a good thing if you are viewing situation as an occupying force | 19:12 |
| RST38h | berndhs: cause by the same problems in Saudi Arabia | 19:12 |
| npm | but they were retreating under a "white flag" | 19:13 |
| RST38h | berndhs: Saudis were just smart enough to channel their young males' anger toward the US. For now. | 19:13 |
| berndhs | yeah, there is too much money to be made in oil, otherwise the whole region could be ignored | 19:13 |
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| npm | and the "basra uprising" which was iraq's own arab spring. was put down w/ a lot of US assistance.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_uprisings_in_Iraq | 19:14 |
| RST38h | berndhs: until they come streaming across your borders of course. | 19:14 |
| RST38h | npm: Saddam has been American lapdog for a while, as well as Osama (to lesser degree), so, not sure why are you even quoting these | 19:15 |
| berndhs | if Mexico had a decent economy, the US wouldn't have an illegal immigration problem | 19:15 |
| RST38h | berndhs: Mexico *has* a decent economy for a third world country. | 19:15 |
| berndhs | sure, but not compared to the US | 19:16 |
| RST38h | berndhs: just got surplus of low quality uneducated work force | 19:16 |
| berndhs | I lived along that border too | 19:16 |
| RST38h | berndhs: you know, how this can be fixed one of TWO ways... ;) | 19:16 |
| RST38h | and the second one appears to be in progress just about now... | 19:16 |
| npm | RST38h: in response and evidence against "<berndhs> i dont think that had much to do with it" | 19:17 |
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| berndhs | i don't think bin Laden's friends had a iraqi civilians in mind | 19:18 |
| npm | you frustrate the people enough and everybody loses. it's not like the french revolution was "clean and easy" | 19:18 |
| berndhs | if the US acted nice and benevolent, people would still hate them just because they are bigger and stronger | 19:20 |
| npm | berndhs: they absolutely did have iraq in mind. "Al-Qaeda ideologues envision a complete break from all foreign influences in Muslim countries" | 19:20 |
| Bostik | berndhs: I suspect you're mixing hate and envy | 19:21 |
| Stskeeps | ##politics , people | 19:21 |
| the-boss | Stskeeps: Error: "#politics" is not a valid command. | 19:21 |
| RST38h | Iraq wasn't even a muslim country under Saddam. Was pretty secular. | 19:21 |
| npm | the 1998 declaration of war against the US specificially cited the gulf war | 19:21 |
| npm | the uprisings weren't secular | 19:21 |
| npm | my college friend, Danny Pearl, died as a journalist trying to get to the bottom of all this... | 19:24 |
| CosmoHill | what is "the-boss", it doesn't seem a very smart bot | 19:30 |
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| lbt | CosmoHill: it's not a smart bot, it's an echo service | 19:59 |
| * CosmoHill giggles at some of the P4 based crap scan are trying to clear | 20:02 | |
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| * CosmoHill wonders if he could be a HPC consultant | 23:05 | |
| Venemo_webchat | CosmoHill: wut is a HPC? | 23:05 |
| CosmoHill | High Performance Computing; that will be £5 | 23:06 |
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| ZogG | hello | 23:35 |
| ZogG | is there an option to share internet from laptop to n9 under linux? | 23:36 |
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| thiago | ZogG: you need to ask in #harmattan | 23:39 |
| ZogG | thnx | 23:40 |
| ZogG | though meego maemo and there have same people =) | 23:40 |
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| thiago | configure your networking to route through your laptop then | 23:45 |
| thiago | how are you connected to the laptop? | 23:45 |
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