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| ShadowJK | If you go out for lunch, and think about work, you can deduct the restaurant bill ;p | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| berndhs | nah, only if you go with someone who also thinks about work | 00:01 |
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| phl0x81 | I prefer beeing invited for lunch :P | 00:04 |
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| berndhs | careful, in some jurisdictions a free lunch is considered taxable income | 00:05 |
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| lcuk | CosmoHill, I added something to the weather http://liqbase.net/20110617_003.mp4 | 00:06 |
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| berndhs | darn, "register" is a keyword in C++ | 00:08 |
| * CosmoHill looks | 00:08 | |
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| CosmoHill | berndhs: yes, it puts the value on the processor cache instead of the RAM | 00:08 |
| phl0x81 | sure it is. | 00:08 |
| berndhs | such a natural name for my function :) | 00:09 |
| phl0x81 | never used it so. | 00:09 |
| berndhs | I think its actually a hint, it doesnt really have to do it | 00:10 |
| berndhs | from the olden days of C | 00:10 |
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| phl0x81 | ofc the compiler doesn't give a fuck about it today. | 00:10 |
| phl0x81 | its like inline, useful and nice, but modern compilers can decide this much better. | 00:11 |
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| berndhs | no probably not the C++ compiler | 00:11 |
| phl0x81 | oh yes, they have very good optimisers nowadays. | 00:12 |
| berndhs | i mean, "no" as in "they don't care if you say register" | 00:12 |
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| CosmoHill | that is awesome | 00:12 |
| phl0x81 | I'm waiting for the dragon. LLVM will really boost things up :) | 00:13 |
| berndhs | all out troubles will go away when wayland arrives | 00:14 |
| berndhs | or something | 00:14 |
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| phl0x81 | wayland is cool. | 00:14 |
| berndhs | how is it better ? other than faster ? | 00:15 |
| phl0x81 | but also I ask my self, whats MeeGo gonna do on devices without gpu? | 00:15 |
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| phl0x81 | with QML SceneGraph Qt will do alot better, if there is a gpu unit afaik. | 00:15 |
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| berndhs | QML is kinda slow in my apps, and somewhat jumpy | 00:17 |
| berndhs | I don't know if thats the graphics part, or the JS parser, or the bindings evaluation | 00:17 |
| phl0x81 | well SceneGraph is gonna improve it. | 00:17 |
| berndhs | SceneGraph would improve it if it's the graphics part | 00:18 |
| berndhs | I think | 00:18 |
| phl0x81 | also use C++ when you can. | 00:18 |
| berndhs | i use C++ for all the underlying data, the QML is just for the display part | 00:18 |
| berndhs | no data model or processing in QML | 00:18 |
| phl0x81 | I love QML, I think its a great technique for good and modern UIs. | 00:19 |
| berndhs | I dont really care about the languages | 00:19 |
| phl0x81 | yeah, expose your data in models to qml. | 00:19 |
| phl0x81 | but I also noticed, that large models take their time to load in qml. | 00:19 |
| berndhs | basically I write a C++ application, and load QML to do teh display part | 00:20 |
| lcuk | what is the difference between qml and html? | 00:20 |
| berndhs | the C++ says when the data changed, and controls what the data are | 00:20 |
| lcuk | and why does html load/render relatively quickly? | 00:20 |
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| phl0x81 | qml knows transitions and states, html is just a dumb xml format describing a document. | 00:21 |
| berndhs | what the world needs is a good profiler for QML | 00:21 |
| berndhs | one that doesn't require qt-creator :) | 00:21 |
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| phl0x81 | currently qml is based on top of GraphicsView, which isn't perfect, espicially if you have controls in your qml code. | 00:23 |
| berndhs | i have some trouble with it crashing with F15 or gcc 4.6, don't know which is the culprit | 00:24 |
| alterego | qml states are great :) | 00:24 |
| berndhs | great states are Florida and Texas, no state income tax | 00:25 |
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| alterego | Heh | 00:26 |
| phl0x81 | nah, gators and longhorns aren't that great ;) | 00:26 |
| phl0x81 | if US, I'd go to California. | 00:26 |
| berndhs | its nice there, just kinda expensive | 00:27 |
| lcuk | phl0x81, are you sure there is much difference? | 00:28 |
| lcuk | berndhs, there is a decent qml performance profiler tool | 00:29 |
| berndhs | there is one outside of qt-creator ? | 00:29 |
| lcuk | http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/04/07/qml-perfomance-monitor/ | 00:29 |
| lcuk | no but that is hardly the issue | 00:29 |
| berndhs | i dont want to build the whole thing with creator to do the profiling | 00:29 |
| lcuk | it exists | 00:29 |
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| phl0x81 | California rocks. been there 2 times. k, its been more then 10 years since :/ | 00:30 |
| berndhs | building my project with creator is a major nuisance, really | 00:30 |
| berndhs | I lived in California for 17 years, would go back tomorrow if I had the chance | 00:30 |
| phl0x81 | really? I love the creator, best IDE ever so far. | 00:30 |
| phl0x81 | Laguna Beach <3 | 00:31 |
| berndhs | i dont like the creator editor, and all the little windows around the side of it | 00:31 |
| phl0x81 | < been 10 month to Oklahoma also <3 | 00:31 |
| berndhs | San Diego has better climate | 00:31 |
| phl0x81 | ah, more the emacs guy? :P | 00:32 |
| berndhs | i ahve my own editor | 00:32 |
| berndhs | or gedit, or vi | 00:32 |
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| berndhs | my editor is a scintila wrapper basically, like gedit but with qt | 00:33 |
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| berndhs | I can float or dock windows for different files, that's why i made it | 00:34 |
| berndhs | convenient for editing the foo.cpp while looking at the foo.h, and such things | 00:34 |
| phl0x81 | I had that for some years too. | 00:37 |
| phl0x81 | basicly, not editor, generator. | 00:37 |
| phl0x81 | wanna recode that tool to something useful so. someday. | 00:37 |
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| berndhs | scintilla is nice, makes it really easy to write an editor | 00:37 |
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| alterego | I use a moded up gedit :) | 00:39 |
| berndhs | i think gedit uses scintilla inside | 00:39 |
| berndhs | the thing about teh qml profiler is that its probably quite separate from qt-creator, just not publically available right now | 00:40 |
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| alterego | I believe it's all part of the project when you make it | 00:42 |
| berndhs | could be | 00:42 |
| alterego | It's in the qml project template. | 00:42 |
| alterego | So you should be able to see how they do it. | 00:42 |
| berndhs | i'm not making projects with creator though unless someone pays me for it. And I mean *pays* | 00:43 |
| alterego | Benchmarking qgv I guess. | 00:43 |
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| alterego | I like creator, | 00:43 |
| alterego | Though I don't use any of their templates :) | 00:43 |
| berndhs | fine with me, other people can like it :) | 00:43 |
| alterego | And I don't use the qml wysiwyg editor | 00:44 |
| alterego | In fact, I don't use any of their ui wysiwyg tools | 00:44 |
| berndhs | I tried to find the qml editor, its not there in the creator versions I looked at | 00:44 |
| alterego | I just use it for the editing | 00:44 |
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| alterego | The graphical editor or the text editor? | 00:45 |
| berndhs | qml | 00:45 |
| berndhs | anytthing for qml | 00:45 |
| berndhs | i probaly look at the wrong version | 00:46 |
| alterego | Oh, well, when I edit a qml file it has good syntax highlighting and code completetion, then you click on the ui design button in the toolbar on the left of the window at it takes you to the designer | 00:46 |
| alterego | I just don't like designers. | 00:46 |
| berndhs | dont' want to install things that are not in the fedora repo | 00:46 |
| berndhs | the scintilla stuff in my editor works ok for qml, it thinks its javascript | 00:46 |
| berndhs | so I get some syntax highlighting | 00:47 |
| alterego | Yeah, but it's not :P | 00:47 |
| alterego | And it highlights the wrong keywords | 00:47 |
| berndhs | that's not really a major issue for me | 00:47 |
| alterego | I keep meaning to get around to doing a qml highlighting configuration for gtksourceview. | 00:47 |
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| berndhs | i'm mostly curious about profiling the bindings stuff | 00:49 |
| berndhs | and some of the javascript parsing | 00:50 |
| berndhs | I suspect that an inordinate amount of time is spent there, but that's conjecture | 00:50 |
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| alterego | Well, all the major grunt work should be in C++ | 00:55 |
| alterego | The QML should just declare the UI and states. | 00:56 |
| alterego | So the real Qt can build it's scene (graph) :) | 00:56 |
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| berndhs | the evaluation of declarative stuff could be expensive though | 00:57 |
| berndhs | the little UIs I make are not static | 00:57 |
| alterego | Only on startup, one it's loaded in all the components into it's tree it doesn't need to pass it anymore. | 00:57 |
| berndhs | no that's not always the case | 00:58 |
| lcuk | berndhs, see the qml profiler thing I showed which profiles "samegame" in the video demo | 00:58 |
| alterego | Javascript evaluation is the only think that'll decrement performance. | 00:58 |
| lcuk | then map what it shows for that into your code | 00:58 |
| berndhs | lcuk: yes i'll look into that, its worth spending some time on it | 00:58 |
| alterego | It's like UIs that are stored in xml files and built at run time, they don't have any overhead except initial creation. | 00:59 |
| berndhs | alterego: the bindings have to be re-evaluated when condistions change | 00:59 |
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| berndhs | different things are shown and hidden, sizes change, colors change | 00:59 |
| berndhs | so how they do the evaluation can make a difference | 00:59 |
| alterego | Sure, but I imagine that is all very efficient signals & slot type things. | 00:59 |
| berndhs | yes you imagine :) | 01:00 |
| berndhs | evaluation of declarative or functional stuff is not easy, lots of pitfalls | 01:00 |
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| alterego | For instance, you need to have NOTIFY on all properties in a component in C++ in order for it to effect anothers' bindings. | 01:00 |
| alterego | So it must be using signals for binding recalculation triggers. | 01:01 |
| berndhs | its not just those parts, its also simple stuff like width and height of the window | 01:01 |
| alterego | How is that different! | 01:01 |
| alterego | Sorry that was a question mark ;) | 01:01 |
| alterego | How is that different? | 01:01 |
| berndhs | one of my points is, tehre are many evaluation orders for functional/declarative lanaguages | 01:02 |
| berndhs | and the evaluation order can make huge difference in performance and resources | 01:02 |
| phl0x81 | shouldn't be that of a problem, all that JS is based on C++ in qt, afaik. | 01:02 |
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| phl0x81 | so qml should be too. | 01:03 |
| alterego | phl0x81: the javascript gets evaluated everytime it's run | 01:03 |
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| berndhs | the js is from apple | 01:03 |
| alterego | The qml describes a scene. | 01:03 |
| phl0x81 | qml is js. | 01:03 |
| berndhs | right, the js is evaluated every time something changes | 01:03 |
| berndhs | but what parts are evaluated, I don't know | 01:03 |
| alterego | phl0x81: not all of it, not really. | 01:03 |
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| alterego | The javascript files are js, and the embedded js fragments are js, but .qml files are Qml .. | 01:04 |
| alterego | Which _isn't_ javascript. | 01:04 |
| phl0x81 | isn't qml valid js? | 01:04 |
| alterego | No | 01:05 |
| berndhs | QML is CSS with embedded JS if you want to be disrespectful :) | 01:05 |
| phl0x81 | yeah, kind of true berndhs | 01:05 |
| alterego | berndhs: it sort of looks more like that yes ;) | 01:05 |
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| alterego | But it's different to taht. | 01:05 |
| berndhs | i mean, that's not accurate, but its an approximation | 01:05 |
| berndhs | its more than CSS at the top level | 01:06 |
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| alterego | It's like a JS/CSS hybrid syntax, which describes a heirarchial scene graph/model | 01:06 |
| phl0x81 | I'm waiting for components and scenegraph. | 01:06 |
| alterego | So conceptually it's more like a subset of XML :P | 01:06 |
| alterego | Than CSS or JS | 01:06 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: So, since it's YAML (but not /YAML/)... we can add support for a shebang line! | 01:07 |
| phl0x81 | what I dont like is filename == componentname. | 01:07 |
| alterego | phl0x81: Well, you don't have to do it like that, but it's cleaner and it's standard. | 01:08 |
| phl0x81 | also there isn't any module/namespace concept in qml. | 01:08 |
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| berndhs | yes the naming stuff seems kinda ad-hoc | 01:08 |
| phl0x81 | yeah, Standards. who cares about them... | 01:09 |
| berndhs | but then javascript is an ad-hoc language, so maybe that's consistent | 01:09 |
| alterego | phl0x81: import can be used for namespacing | 01:09 |
| phl0x81 | yeah, but you wanna be an ad-hoc programmer? :P | 01:09 |
| alterego | gabrbedd: neither are programming languages, it doesn't make sense to "execute" a qml file. | 01:09 |
| berndhs | oh there is an entire industry based on ad-hoc programming | 01:10 |
| berndhs | all the ruby and php stuff :) | 01:10 |
| phl0x81 | php and :) -> fail. | 01:10 |
| berndhs | lots of money in it | 01:11 |
| phl0x81 | not really. as a freelancer I get more for C++. and less pain. | 01:11 |
| lcuk | did you know, 30 years ago this sort of re-evaluation thing was donei na different environment: spreadhseets | 01:11 |
| lcuk | don in a | 01:11 |
| lcuk | fffffffs | 01:11 |
| lcuk | done in a | 01:11 |
| phl0x81 | excel! | 01:11 |
| alterego | :) | 01:11 |
| berndhs | 50 years ago it was done in LISP | 01:11 |
| lcuk | visicalc | 01:11 |
| lcuk | the idea of a sparse table of data which has interrelationships and formulas | 01:12 |
| lcuk | which is the same as a qml model | 01:12 |
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| berndhs | right, lambda calculus is the same thing | 01:12 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: Sure it makes sense. That's why everyone is asking to be able to deploy pure-qml apps. | 01:13 |
| phl0x81 | marketing, not everyone. | 01:13 |
| alterego | gabrbedd: that's cause they are lazy :P | 01:13 |
| alterego | A qml file sin't an executable program, like I said, it describes a scene. | 01:13 |
| berndhs | quite a few folks think that if they can write it in QML, they dont need to know how to write programs | 01:14 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: Here's a raspberry for you :-b::::..... | 01:14 |
| phl0x81 | apimonkeys should do java... ;) | 01:14 |
| alterego | But yeah, I understand it might be useful to have a auto-loader :) | 01:14 |
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| berndhs | I want to load qml from strings, can I do that ? | 01:14 |
| alterego | berndhs: in qml? sure | 01:15 |
| lcuk | a shell script isnt an executable program, like I said, it describes a spell | 01:15 |
| gabrbedd | berndhs: I think so. | 01:15 |
| alterego | lcuk: :P | 01:15 |
| berndhs | then I can modify the stupid "Import QtQuick 1.x" on the fly | 01:15 |
| lcuk | find a way to allow shebangs in qml/c/c++ | 01:15 |
| alterego | lcuk: a script has clear control flow. | 01:15 |
| lcuk | and let us have source deployable language! | 01:15 |
| lcuk | qml does | 01:15 |
| alterego | qml, well, it's like executing a java program :P | 01:15 |
| lcuk | except slower | 01:15 |
| phl0x81 | I see them coming, I see them running... qml injections... | 01:15 |
| berndhs | alterego: you can write programs without control flow, look at LISP | 01:16 |
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| alterego | berndhs: still has an entry point :P | 01:16 |
| lcuk | are there any pure qml apps around? | 01:16 |
| alterego | berndhs: still has an entry point :P | 01:16 |
| lcuk | ie is there a starting point | 01:16 |
| berndhs | maybe, but no specification of control flow | 01:16 |
| alterego | This is all getting very metaphysical though | 01:16 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: Yes... all the qml examples are. | 01:17 |
| phl0x81 | there is a cool qml presentation system. | 01:17 |
| lcuk | are any of them useful? | 01:17 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: How is it different from initializing your QWidget-based UI and then calling app.exec() ? | 01:17 |
| lcuk | phl0x81, now that is positive | 01:17 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: Yes. | 01:17 |
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| alterego | gabrbedd: it isn't but you are the one that is instantiating it :P | 01:18 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: At least 2 are games. | 01:18 |
| * lcuk wrote a presentation app a couple of years ago | 01:18 | |
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| lcuk | oooh gabrbedd which games? | 01:18 |
| gabrbedd | lcuk: "Same Game" (if that's the right name) and Tic-Tac-Toe comes to mind. | 01:19 |
| lcuk | i have both of those in liqbase :P | 01:19 |
| alterego | gabrbedd: so what's the difference between instantiating your declarative ui and calling app.exec() ? | 01:19 |
| lcuk | well, mine is called "differentgame" :P | 01:19 |
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| gabrbedd | lcuk: I mod'd Tic-Tac-Toe for 2-player and play it with the kids. | 01:19 |
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| lcuk | and gabrbedd - tictactoe is used for learning how to write | 01:19 |
| lcuk | me and jake play | 01:19 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: Exactly! There's no "control structure" :-p | 01:19 |
| alterego | gabrbedd: yes there is | 01:20 |
| lcuk | gabrbedd, that is not real version of tictactoe though? | 01:20 |
| alterego | 1. load qml. 2. app.exec() | 01:20 |
| lcuk | that is poke a place on a grid | 01:20 |
| lcuk | not drawing the board etc | 01:20 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: do tell. | 01:20 |
| alterego | gabrbedd: where do you do that in qml? | 01:20 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: sorry... too late with that one. | 01:20 |
| alterego | Where's then "entry point"? | 01:20 |
| alterego | the .. | 01:20 |
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| gabrbedd | alterego: qmlviewer my_cool_qml_app.qml | 01:21 |
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| gabrbedd | It 1. loads qml. 2. app.exec() | 01:21 |
| alterego | gabrbedd: anyway, this is a rather pointless debate, I agree it would be neat to have an auto .qml loader | 01:21 |
| alterego | Which is why I suggested using bin misc | 01:21 |
| alterego | gabrbedd: nice script, that's a .sh no? :P | 01:21 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: !!??!!?? | 01:21 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: you just said "It doesn't make sense!!" | 01:22 |
| alterego | You know how shebang works don't you? | 01:22 |
| lcuk | can qml load qml? | 01:22 |
| alterego | lcuk: yes | 01:22 |
| lcuk | can they interact? | 01:22 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: Yes. Setting up shebang requires that we have a production/stable interpreter. | 01:22 |
| alterego | gabrbedd: the interpreting command takes in a file through stdin | 01:22 |
| alterego | qmlviewer doesn't do that. | 01:22 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: I didn't know about the stdin thing... doesn't it just concatenate the CLI arguments? | 01:24 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: i.e. `./foo.py --bar -bat` becomes `/usr/bin/python ./foo.py --bar --bat | 01:24 |
| gabrbedd | ` | 01:24 |
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| alterego | gabrbedd: nope | 01:26 |
| berndhs | who actually looks at teh shebang ? | 01:26 |
| alterego | /bin/sh | 01:26 |
| alterego | or /bin/bash or whatever | 01:26 |
| berndhs | that's what I thought | 01:26 |
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| alterego | The shell processes that | 01:27 |
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| berndhs | does it understand any of it, or jsut load whatever it says there ? | 01:27 |
| alterego | Anyway, no the scripts are passed into stdin, that is why if you run /usr/bin/perl | 01:27 |
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| alterego | Your input is the program. | 01:27 |
| berndhs | so if I say "#!/home/berndhs/bin/myinterpreter --X --Y" it will work | 01:27 |
| alterego | All valid "interpreters" interpret from stdin, which is how they can process "scripts" with a shebang line. | 01:28 |
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| alterego | berndhs: yes, if it takes in the script through stdin | 01:28 |
| berndhs | well they also have to know to ignore at least the first line if it starts with # | 01:29 |
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| alterego | So you'd need to load the file from stdin, strip the first line (shebang) then stick it in to the declarative scene. | 01:29 |
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| alterego | Yes | 01:29 |
| berndhs | that doesn't seem all that hard | 01:29 |
| alterego | It isn't | 01:29 |
| berndhs | what's the bug number for the FEA request ? | 01:30 |
| alterego | But this is my point :P | 01:30 |
| alterego | There isn't one :P | 01:30 |
| berndhs | why not ? | 01:30 |
| alterego | And what would you file it against? | 01:30 |
| berndhs | against QML | 01:30 |
| berndhs | or against Qt | 01:30 |
| alterego | qmlviewer isn't qmlinterpreter | 01:30 |
| alterego | It's a different app | 01:30 |
| berndhs | so what, its part of Qt | 01:31 |
| alterego | anyway, bed time for me. | 01:31 |
| alterego | No it isn't | 01:31 |
| berndhs | dont dream about this stuff :) | 01:31 |
| alterego | What has a qml interpreter command have to do with Qt :P | 01:31 |
| alterego | You want the app, write it :P | 01:31 |
| alterego | ciao :) | 01:31 |
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| * auke grunts | 01:56 | |
| * auke grunts very loud about people using boxbe | 01:56 | |
| * auke grunts very loud about people using boxbe and has them removed from the meego mailinglists | 01:57 | |
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| berndhs | i'm glad that I don't even know what boxbe is | 02:05 |
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| auke | every message I send to meego-dev(?) is met with a hostile request to click a website button to allow me to deliver into his inbox | 02:08 |
| auke | seriously, talk about abuse | 02:08 |
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| berndhs | sounds like he has a problem all right | 02:09 |
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| SpeedEvil | auke: I get that sort of email quite often from people getting spam who have forged my email address as sender. | 02:20 |
| SpeedEvil | auke: I approve it all of course. | 02:20 |
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| auke | SpeedEvil: you ... totally deserve your irc nickname | 02:21 |
| berndhs | hmm gcc 4.6 -std=c++0x defines a macro "major" | 02:23 |
| auke | User `psrao.raju@gmail.com' removed from list: meego-sdk. | 02:28 |
| auke | User `psrao.raju@gmail.com' removed from list: meego-il10n. | 02:28 |
| auke | User `psrao.raju@gmail.com' removed from list: meego-dev. | 02:28 |
| auke | weeeee! | 02:28 |
| auke | my wrath is ... puny, but it's still there :) | 02:28 |
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| berndhs | probably did him a favour | 02:29 |
| * CosmoHill giggles | 02:29 | |
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| lcuk | did I see somebody released a space invaders game for meego? | 02:35 |
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| lcuk | auke, o_O I thought once you got on a mailing list you could not be removed | 03:09 |
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| auke | lcuk: shush ;) | 03:22 |
| lcuk | auke, can you do the same with gym memberships? | 03:23 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: there was a recent judgement holdin gthat the terms of many gym contracts are unfair. | 03:24 |
| SpeedEvil | Specifically the really long term ones with no meaningful exit other than paying all the fees. | 03:24 |
| lcuk | there was an episode of friends all about it | 03:24 |
| SpeedEvil | (in the UK) | 03:24 |
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| * lcuk gets tired just thinking about going to the gym | 03:25 | |
| * SpeedEvil is excersizing mainly by sawing off bits of his house at the moment. | 03:26 | |
| SpeedEvil | Also hammering, chiseling, axing, and angle-grinding. | 03:26 |
| * lcuk plays with the weathermap http://liqbase.net/20110617_003.mp4 | 03:26 | |
| SpeedEvil | I should really get an adze too, just because. | 03:26 |
| lcuk | I was fixing a door earlier | 03:26 |
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| lcuk | jake was happy because he got to hammer some nails in | 03:27 |
| SpeedEvil | :) | 03:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | liqhammer? | 03:27 |
| lcuk | no, real | 03:27 |
| SpeedEvil | Strap it to the handle, and comput the depth the nail went in? | 03:27 |
| SpeedEvil | I have a huuuge pile of insualtion outside that needs to fit. | 03:28 |
| lcuk | heh | 03:28 |
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| lcuk | i stuck my head up into the loft last weekend | 03:28 |
| SpeedEvil | If piled in a cube, it would be as high as I can reach. | 03:28 |
| SpeedEvil | Loft is piss-easy alas - this is floor and wall. | 03:28 |
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| * lcuk rather likes the weather map easter egg :) | 03:30 | |
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| ShadowJK | SpeedEvil, remember, you can saw and axe all you want, but come winter, you wish you'd done some nailing | 03:31 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm probably going to be mostly screwing. | 03:31 |
| SpeedEvil | The house is quite weathertight - it's just cold. | 03:31 |
| SpeedEvil | Hence I need to do all the vapour barrier/insulation thing | 03:32 |
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| ShadowJK | don't forget your air column | 03:34 |
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| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: yeah - I've investigated this all in detail - in any case, I'm greatly improving the ventilation and air movement around the walls. | 03:56 |
| * ShadowJK doesn't really have any clue about this, I just head the guys with the new houses speak of air columns :-) | 03:56 | |
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| ShadowJK | Meanwhile I live in 18th century house that defies laws of physics | 03:57 |
| SpeedEvil | I want at points in the future to do heat-exchange ventilation, and similar. | 03:58 |
| ShadowJK | Standard in new houses here :-) | 03:58 |
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| ShadowJK | Suck the heat out of any air you blow out | 03:58 |
| ShadowJK | I suspect this house is built ontop of a very very big rock that extends down into the earth | 03:59 |
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| ShadowJK | Because it's cool in summer, and warm in winter. | 04:00 |
| ShadowJK | The massive fireplace is built ontop of/ispartof the big rock, I think that's what's giving the magic stabilizing effect :-) | 04:01 |
| SpeedEvil | However - even without that - actualy having insulation vs plasterboard, 5cm of air, and then a wall - will be a big plus. | 04:02 |
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| ShadowJK | Absolutely :-) | 04:03 |
| * ShadowJK only has two centuries of random crap | 04:04 | |
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| npm | is meego.com down? | 05:21 |
| npm | oh it's back now... | 05:21 |
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| sofar | the linuxfoundation was having issues | 06:32 |
| berndhs | with the new member ? | 06:32 |
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| sofar | lol what? | 06:47 |
| sofar | no, bandwidth wise | 06:47 |
| sofar | new member? | 06:47 |
| berndhs | the folks who know your bank account and the cash in your pocket, and all its history :P | 06:49 |
| * Stskeeps yawns | 06:50 | |
| sofar | anyone can have my bank account info | 06:50 |
| sofar | not much you can do with that except wire money TO it, since it's in europe :) | 06:51 |
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| timoph | morning | 07:39 |
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| jykae | where I should put program launch image in meego? | 10:50 |
| jykae | which folder? | 10:50 |
| jykae | exo doesn't find it now | 10:51 |
| pebcak | depends | 10:52 |
| pebcak | /usr/share/pixmaps works for me :P | 10:52 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 12:10 |
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| alterego | Hey Jaffa | 12:13 |
| * alterego is at the Hactivate summit. | 12:13 | |
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| Jaffa | alterego: Cool. Save the cheerleader, save the world! | 12:34 |
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| alterego | Heh | 13:11 |
| * alterego has just had a rather interesting conversation with some Nokia guys. | 13:12 | |
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| vldcnst | share | 13:14 |
| alterego | No | 13:14 |
| alterego | :) | 13:14 |
| alterego | Though, interestingly, apparently someone I'm guessing outside of Nokia are working on a WP Qt port | 13:15 |
| vldcnst | teaser | 13:15 |
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| timoph | :) | 13:19 |
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| alterego | lcuk: ping | 13:43 |
| kevin_b | Hello everybody ! | 13:46 |
| kevin_b | is there a "XMPP client with video support" Project for Meego? | 13:46 |
| andre__ | hmm, doesn't Empathy/Telepathy support that? | 13:48 |
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| kevin_b | ho I see thanks andre__ | 13:50 |
| andre__ | just a guess | 13:50 |
| alterego | telepathy does, not sure if Perigrine does that yet? | 13:52 |
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| lcuk | alterego, pong | 14:04 |
| alterego | Take it you're not here then? :P | 14:05 |
| lcuk | well since my wages are not yet in, nope | 14:06 |
| * lcuk is a bit miffed | 14:06 | |
| alterego | Shame, it's quite interesting :)P | 14:06 |
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| lcuk | alterego, yeah it was looking good | 14:06 |
| lcuk | I guess I will just have to change the world from my desk | 14:07 |
| alterego | Heh, I don't really know what to do to be honest. | 14:07 |
| alterego | So I just said I'd offer help for people that want Qt/QML etc. | 14:07 |
| alterego | Then I got offered a job | 14:07 |
| * alterego chuckles | 14:07 | |
| lcuk | alterego, http://liqbase.net/ski.safe.txt | 14:07 |
| lcuk | simple app using n8 + qt + sms service which if implemented correctly can save lives | 14:08 |
| alterego | That's a good idea. | 14:08 |
| lcuk | :) | 14:08 |
| alterego | I don't want to steal your idea though :P | 14:08 |
| lcuk | keep my name on it and go for it | 14:09 |
| lcuk | you have skills to implement the phone side | 14:09 |
| lcuk | it needs coordination with ski resorts though | 14:09 |
| lcuk | alterego, making a great demo tomorrow afternoon on stage, you can show it works by throwing yourself on the floor | 14:11 |
| lcuk | visuals! | 14:11 |
| alterego | Hah | 14:12 |
| alterego | Or sacrificing an N900 ;) | 14:12 |
| * lcuk semi serious by the way | 14:12 | |
| lcuk | I was going to try and implement it this weekend | 14:12 |
| alterego | I could do it at the end, I could trip up and fall over. | 14:12 |
| alterego | Then the system could take over :D | 14:12 |
| * lcuk nods | 14:12 | |
| lcuk | alterego, I told you, I was sortof prepared for this weekend :) | 14:13 |
| lcuk | bbl | 14:14 |
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| alterego | I've decided to do my services/applications auto-discovery localisation thingy | 14:52 |
| alterego | And see if anyone wants to rinse my code for their apps. | 14:52 |
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| berndhs | what does that mean ? | 14:57 |
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| alterego | Nothing | 15:01 |
| alterego | :) | 15:01 |
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| berndhs | I mean, the world will be a better place afterwards for sure | 15:01 |
| berndhs | but how does one rinse your code with one's apps ? | 15:02 |
| alterego | That depends what their apps are. | 15:02 |
| berndhs | no doubt | 15:02 |
| alterego | If there apps are centralised around a specific location, rather than any-where, then my architecture comes into play. | 15:02 |
| alterego | In fact, I've already got an app idea that would utilize this framework, several infact. | 15:03 |
| berndhs | location as in Rome, Italy ? | 15:03 |
| alterego | Sure, or even more specific. | 15:03 |
| berndhs | home, office, mom's place, girfriends house, mother-in-law's house,... | 15:05 |
| alterego | Yes, exactly | 15:06 |
| berndhs | ah, this could be a security feature if used with keyrings | 15:07 |
| berndhs | passwords for office related thigns only work while you're at the office | 15:08 |
| alterego | That, is a very good idea that would work with this. | 15:08 |
| alterego | But it could be more inverted, so, when you're in the office, your _office_ only advertises certain services/applications over the network. | 15:09 |
| alterego | You don't need the security in as much as you're already in the building and connected to the network (possibly using wifi auth etc). | 15:09 |
| alterego | But a key ring unlock could also be in play. | 15:09 |
| alterego | And that is certainly a good idea to put into a security framework I plan on integrating into the system if it becomes more viable. | 15:10 |
| berndhs | it could allow different settings for working remote and working in the office | 15:10 |
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| alterego | Yup | 15:10 |
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| XwZ | hi, do you know how to refresh repositories on meego ? | 15:59 |
| timoph | zypper ref | 15:59 |
| XwZ | i tried zypper refresh but i have an error with core repo (and same with oss found on the meego's wiki) | 15:59 |
| timoph | ref == refresh | 16:00 |
| timoph | that should work | 16:00 |
| XwZ | "please check if the URIs defined for this repository are pointing to a valid repository" | 16:00 |
| timoph | maybe there's something wrong with the repo | 16:00 |
| XwZ | how can i get the repo uri ? | 16:01 |
| timoph | the repos are defined in /etc/zypp/repos.d/ | 16:01 |
| timoph | (iirc) | 16:01 |
| timoph | check the url from the .repo files | 16:02 |
| timoph | btw, what image you are using? | 16:02 |
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| XwZ | i don't know, it's an exoPC loan by intel | 16:04 |
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| andyross | XwZ, is this a pre-1.2 install? My memory is that the repo URLs changed at the 1.2 release. | 16:05 |
| timoph | yeah. could be that the repos simple don't exist anymore for that image | 16:05 |
| timoph | you can check the version by 'cat /etc/meego-release' | 16:06 |
| timoph | s/simple/simply/ | 16:06 |
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| XwZ | after some changes on the repo file (relocate the repo) it works \o/ | 16:10 |
| XwZ | thaks a lot :) | 16:10 |
| XwZ | thanks* | 16:10 |
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| timoph | np | 16:11 |
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| gabrbedd | alterego: ping | 18:14 |
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| alterego | Aloha | 18:15 |
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| gabrbedd | Miki maki wiki | 18:15 |
| gabrbedd | alterego: I don't recall... were you the one working on the tuner app? | 18:15 |
| alterego | Guitar tuner? | 18:16 |
| alterego | I was toying with doing one, I've not actually done one. And I've noticed a QML mobility app that does it :D | 18:16 |
| gabrbedd | yeah | 18:16 |
| gabrbedd | ok. i was just curious where that went. | 18:16 |
| ph0b028 | Someone has the exopc here ? I'm trying to reinstall Meego on it but latest 1.2 builds seem not to work | 18:18 |
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| lcuk | \o/ | 19:08 |
| lcuk | maemo contacts import works on n900-de | 19:08 |
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| BlueAidan | gah... can't get this touchscreen to work | 20:01 |
| BlueAidan | dell inspiron duo | 20:01 |
| BlueAidan | using pinetrail, and I moved the xorg config file like in https://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?format=multiple&id=17967 | 20:02 |
| BlueAidan | there's output in the xorg log re: egalax screen and it seems to configure it, but nothing happens when I touch/drag on the screen | 20:02 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: Please pastebin/pastie your Xorg.log | 20:03 |
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| BlueAidan | the entire log, or just the entries about the touchscreen? | 20:03 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: Entire log would be helpful. | 20:04 |
| * npm wonders why ExoPC Xorg log outputs "[ 6.084] (II) intel(0): Setting screen physical size to 256 x 144 " | 20:05 | |
| npm | /tmp/Xorg.0.meego.log | 20:06 |
| BlueAidan | alright, gonna take a bit | 20:07 |
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| BlueAidan | is there an easier way to pastebin the whole file than copy/pasting a screenful at a time? | 20:07 |
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| npm | use emacs? C-x h ctrl-insert ... then shift-insert into browser... of course if you're using emacs, just use m-x w3m-browse-url and cut/paste directly | 20:09 |
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| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: Yeah... what npm says. Open in gedit or emacs... select all... then paste in browser. | 20:10 |
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| BlueAidan | http://pastebin.com/BU8MYUrA | 20:11 |
| BlueAidan | instead of copying the xorg config file like in that ticket, I moved it. It seemed like copying wouldn't work since it kept the same number at the beginning? | 20:12 |
| npm | BlueAidan's says "[ 12.938] (II) intel(0): Setting screen physical size to 289 x 162" | 20:13 |
| npm | wtf | 20:13 |
| BlueAidan | what? the display looks fine | 20:13 |
| npm | tha'ts after "GLX: Initialized DRI2 GL provider for screen 0" ... so it prob. has little to do w/ BlueAidan's problem | 20:13 |
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| BlueAidan | the device's resolution is 1366x768 iirc | 20:14 |
| npm | sorry, i'm bringing my issue to your logfile :-) | 20:14 |
| BlueAidan | oh | 20:14 |
| npm | tha'ts why i find that output questionable | 20:14 |
| npm | it may cause GL problems | 20:14 |
| BlueAidan | I haven't gotten that far yet | 20:14 |
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| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: OK... what's the problem with your touchscreen again? It doesn't work at all? Or what? | 20:15 |
| npm | i'd worry about your first line: [ 12.510] _XSERVTransmkdir: ERROR: euid != 0,directory /tmp/.X11-unix will not be created. | 20:15 |
| BlueAidan | gabrbedd: it doesn't work at all | 20:16 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: and before you did the xorg.conf.d thing? | 20:16 |
| BlueAidan | it would acknowledge a touch to the screen, by moving the pointer to the top left corner | 20:16 |
| npm | that /tmp/.X11-unix looks like a problem | 20:16 |
| BlueAidan | but wouldn't respond to drags or anything else | 20:16 |
| npm | i'm surprised it does even that | 20:17 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: what does `uname -a` give you? | 20:17 |
| BlueAidan | it's in the logfile there at the top (adaptation-pinetrail) | 20:17 |
| BlueAidan | I'm on irc on a different machine | 20:18 |
| npm | if you can't get it to create a unix domain socket for you at srwxrwxrwx 1 npm npm 0 2011-06-17 21:08 /tmp/.X11-unix/X0= how would you expect it to work? | 20:18 |
| gabrbedd | kk | 20:18 |
| BlueAidan | should I make that dir and reboot? | 20:18 |
| npm | any connections over :0.0 won't work and you'd need to use `hostname`:0 instead | 20:19 |
| BlueAidan | everything in x works fine except the touchscreen | 20:19 |
| npm | it should be able to make that dir... check if exists or is wrong perms | 20:19 |
| npm | your xorg should be running as you, not root, so make sure the dir is writable by you | 20:20 |
| BlueAidan | okay | 20:20 |
| npm | nice security hole here too: srwxrwxrwx 1 meego meego 0 2011-06-17 10:00 X0= | 20:20 |
| npm | doh | 20:20 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: what is the device ID for your touchscreen? ... | 20:20 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: Do this command: | 20:20 |
| npm | man, that's a good sploit :-) | 20:21 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: sudo lsusb -v | grep -E "(^Device|Vendor|Product|Manufac)" | 20:21 |
| BlueAidan | would be nice if quassel was packaged | 20:21 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: What's needed is idVendor and idProduct for your touchscreen device. | 20:22 |
| BlueAidan | ok, working | 20:23 |
| BlueAidan | pastebin.com/AKiqDFLg | 20:25 |
| * gabrbedd is searching the kernel sources... but was called to lunch by his family.... | 20:28 | |
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| BlueAidan | xinput --list shows 5 entries for the egalax | 20:32 |
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| BlueAidan | all ending with slave pointer (2) | 20:33 |
| BlueAidan | however, there's an entry before them that ends with that too (Virtual core XTEST pointer) | 20:33 |
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| * lcuk wonders how to fillup #liqbase again | 20:43 | |
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| CosmoHill | free tea and biscuits? | 20:44 |
| * SpeedEvil just wants someone to implement http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Server:WebProxy | 20:45 | |
| SpeedEvil | Bounty of one bounty bar for completion. | 20:46 |
| lcuk | CosmoHill, perhaps | 20:49 |
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| SpeedEvil | Or alternatively, to fix my DSL. | 20:50 |
| * SpeedEvil rages against the dying of the (sync) light. | 20:51 | |
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| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: There is no kernel driver for that device. | 20:56 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: So it's probably defaulting to the generic 'HID' driver. | 20:56 |
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| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: However, based on its behavior... if you add the device ID's to the hid-multitouch driver it'll probably work like a champ. | 20:56 |
| BlueAidan | hmm | 20:57 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: Note that I'm looking at Linus's branch. | 20:57 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: If you want to try and hot-rod a kernel... I can help you with the patch. (It'll be about 6 lines to add the device to the driver). | 20:58 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: Make sure you're using >= 2.6.38 | 20:58 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: My e-mail is gabrbedd@gmail.com | 20:59 |
| BlueAidan | most of the posts online say to download a proprietary driver | 20:59 |
| BlueAidan | it's been a looong time since I fiddled with stuff at the kernel level | 20:59 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: I'm 99.9% sure that the hid-multitouch driver will work. | 21:01 |
| BlueAidan | well, if you don't mind trying to build something I can try it out | 21:01 |
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| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: If you wanna try it... here's the docs to get started http://wiki.meego.com/Tips_on_compiling_and_packaging_kernels_in_MeeGo | 21:02 |
| BlueAidan | I just started with meego, so I'm not familiar with the procedures for building/installing custom kernels | 21:02 |
| BlueAidan | ok | 21:02 |
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| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: But I'm all full-up with side projects ATM. Sorry. :-) | 21:02 |
| BlueAidan | can you email me a patch so I can try it? david@dawninglight.net | 21:02 |
| * gabrbedd sends email to BlueAidan | 21:10 | |
| BlueAidan | I just found some emails from this month about it | 21:10 |
| BlueAidan | looking at them now | 21:10 |
| BlueAidan | looks like support is in 2.6.39 | 21:11 |
| BlueAidan | but there are some problems with it | 21:11 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: I did not see the device ID in the kernel sources... so I doubt it. | 21:11 |
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| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: According to this http://lii-enac.fr/en/architecture/linux-input/multitouch-devices.html | 21:17 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: It's in the 2.6.39 kernel, but they haven't tested it. I would guess that it's an error on their page. | 21:18 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: FYI, that site is the upstream maintainers for this driver. | 21:18 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: So, whatever you find... please report it to them. :-) | 21:18 |
| BlueAidan | ok | 21:20 |
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| julienf | Hello :) | 21:29 |
| gabrbedd | howdy! | 21:30 |
| julienf | trying to recover from our summer party last night :D | 21:30 |
| julienf | and at #demoparty in Helsinki :) | 21:30 |
| gabrbedd | :) | 21:31 |
| julienf | gabrbedd: how are things? | 21:35 |
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| gabrbedd | julienf: good. what about you? | 21:39 |
| julienf | quite alright | 21:39 |
| julienf | thinking about company names and branding | 21:39 |
| gabrbedd | haha, me too | 21:39 |
| Ronksu | add ideas to that, and I'm included ,) | 21:40 |
| julienf | Ronksu: what do you mean? | 21:40 |
| Ronksu | thinking about company names and branding, but still in the idea for a company part | 21:41 |
| gabrbedd | Ronksu: well, the ideas obviously came first. That was the "easy" part. | 21:41 |
| * SpeedEvil heats up his branding iron. | 21:41 | |
| Ronksu | gabrbedd: good for you :) | 21:41 |
| * gabrbedd nonchalantly walks in the direction opposite SpeedEvil | 21:42 | |
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| julienf | SpeedEvil: would be glad to be at a stage at which I'd have the iron already :D | 21:42 |
| julienf | Ronksu: I do have almost everything laid out, but now need to find a good name | 21:43 |
| julienf | my existing company is called LeCatalyst | 21:43 |
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| julienf | which is quite alright, but not really something that scales too well :D | 21:43 |
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| julienf | what do you think? | 21:46 |
| BlueAidan | yay, quassel build finally finished | 21:46 |
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| berndhs | what's the company for ? | 21:47 |
| julienf | so far it's about mobile strategy | 21:47 |
| julienf | but thinking of expanding | 21:47 |
| berndhs | you could pick an accurate but boring name, washit through google translate a few times | 21:48 |
| berndhs | then you take something that sounds cool, and spell it wrong | 21:48 |
| julienf | haha :D | 21:48 |
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| berndhs | the wrong spelling is so you can get traction on lawsuits for the naming | 21:49 |
| Ronksu | clever :) | 21:50 |
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| gabrbedd | Here's a name: Road Fugue | 21:55 |
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| julienf | WTF? :D | 21:57 |
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| BlueAidan | how do you restart xorg without rebooting? | 21:58 |
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| gabrbedd | Actually, that name was for julienf... but now I'm thinking of keeping it. :-) | 22:03 |
| gabrbedd | BlueAidan: nohup pkill uxlaunch | 22:03 |
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| julienf | is it always so quiet on the chat on a Saturday? :D | 23:17 |
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| alterego | Depends on the time of the month. | 23:19 |
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| julienf | alterego: I guess so | 23:23 |
| julienf | I should be sleeping already :D | 23:23 |
| julienf | but having so much fun working on my pet project | 23:23 |
| alterego | :) | 23:24 |
| alterego | That's good, don't burn out though :P | 23:24 |
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| julienf | well.. I'll use tomorrow to recover, I guess :) | 23:25 |
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| alterego | Neat | 23:26 |
| julienf | hey thiago! | 23:26 |
| julienf | alterego: what are you up to? | 23:26 |
| thiago | julienf: hello | 23:27 |
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| angelox | Hi all | 23:27 |
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| alterego | julienf: just got back from London hactivate, heading out to have some drinks with friends, then going back to London tomorrow for day 2 :) | 23:27 |
| angelox | Following this: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/Dual_Boot recommends me using a 4GB+ microSD,i can use a 2GB microSD? | 23:28 |
| * wmarone_ boggles at peope running Qt on the iPad | 23:28 | |
| wmarone_ | people* | 23:28 |
| julienf | alterego: how was London Hactivate? | 23:29 |
| alterego | angelox: probably, but it's fiddly, you'd have to manually partition and then mount the downloaded image to copy across the data to your actual partitions. | 23:29 |
| *** TheXception|off is now known as TheXception | 23:29 | |
| alterego | julienf: was really cool, got a lot of hacking done :) | 23:29 |
| alterego | julienf: remember that idea I was talking about last week? The localised services and apps? | 23:29 |
| thiago | wmarone_: the video from yesterday? | 23:30 |
| wmarone_ | ya | 23:30 |
| julienf | alterego: yes I do. How did it go? | 23:30 |
| thiago | yeah | 23:30 |
| angelox | alterego: Ok thank you,it also says to me that i need use version "20.2010.36-2" and i have "20.2010.36-2.210.2". Everything ok? | 23:30 |
| thiago | the iOS session was overflowing with people today at the QtCS | 23:30 |
| thiago | Wayland and the Android port were the two hottest topics here | 23:30 |
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| angelox | That tutorial also says to me that i need use version "20.2010.36-2" and i have "20.2010.36-2.210.2". Everything ok? | 23:40 |
| thiago | sounds like a subversion of the same | 23:42 |
| thiago | 2010.36-2 sounds like Maemo5 PR1.3 | 23:42 |
| angelox | i've never used maemo or meego,and i want to try with everything correct to don't get any problem (bought my n900 yesterday) | 23:43 |
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| thiago | open a terminal and run osso-product-info | 23:43 |
| thiago | still that 210.2 version? | 23:43 |
| Stskeeps | angelox: should be fine - it's the kernel version that matters | 23:44 |
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| Stskeeps | angelox: backup anyway and make sure you know how to reflash | 23:44 |
| Stskeeps | angelox: also, you need a 4gb | 23:44 |
| Stskeeps | bbl sleep | 23:44 |
| angelox | ok thank you,but i don't have a 4gb mmc... | 23:45 |
| thiago | it's actually pretty hard to completely brick an N900. Ensure it's fully charged and that you have the flasher tool and the standard image downloaded. | 23:46 |
| angelox | i'll try to find these files | 23:46 |
| angelox | thanks atm | 23:46 |
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| angelox | if i simply install uboot-pr13 without any change on my actual MicroSD,maemo will still boot fine? | 23:51 |
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