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| lbt | X-Fade: ping | 00:10 |
|---|---|---|
| ml-mobile | :( low battery, wtf | 00:13 |
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| lbt | DawnFoster: any thoughts on http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group | 00:16 |
| DawnFoster | lbt: on the working groups in general, I'm waiting on the TSG to define the overall MeeGo project structure to see what elements are included in the main project before I can really think about whether we need separate working groups. | 00:18 |
| DawnFoster | kind of like the decision at the last TSG that localization is a key part of the project and not a separate working group | 00:18 |
| lbt | sure... don't worry about whether it's a WG or something else at this point | 00:19 |
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| lbt | right now I'm just trying to consolidate thoughts/scope | 00:19 |
| lbt | nb... since Meego is "all community" then how does being a "key part" differ from being a "WG" ? | 00:20 |
| lbt | I thought the WGs were a mechanism to be inclusive...? | 00:20 |
| lbt | the decision to make the localisation - note localised spelling ;) - a "key part" seems to disenfranchise community people a little. | 00:21 |
| DawnFoster | I think it's a structural / semantic difference | 00:21 |
| DawnFoster | community members will be heavily involved in the core project | 00:21 |
| DawnFoster | we don't need working groups to get community people involved. | 00:22 |
| DawnFoster | this is a key difference between the way Maemo and Moblin have operated. | 00:22 |
| lbt | agreed - I had expected that that inclusion would come by membership of a 'group who are interested in' | 00:22 |
| lbt | and I thought the WGs would be similar to "hang around here to discuss X" | 00:22 |
| lbt | right now there's no meeting points | 00:23 |
| lbt | and when the l8n people say "lets meet" and the TSG say "no don't" .... hmmm | 00:23 |
| DawnFoster | I suspect it will be more of a meritocracy - less about people who are interested in and more about people who are actively contributing | 00:23 |
| lbt | (I know they didn't stop them meeting ... but they sure damped it down) | 00:24 |
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| lbt | OK - so even us "doers" need to talk to others | 00:24 |
| DawnFoster | I don't think the TSG wants them to stop meeting | 00:24 |
| lbt | (I know really, it's a minor critique) | 00:24 |
| lbt | but it is a perception thing | 00:24 |
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| DawnFoster | having key community members is a core part of the project sounds *more* inclusive to me than having them as an informal working group | 00:25 |
| DawnFoster | is=as | 00:25 |
| lbt | mmm | 00:26 |
| DawnFoster | all of the same people are doing the same things, but as an official part of the project. | 00:26 |
| lbt | the WGs are not "informal" though... | 00:26 |
| lbt | they are kinda official... since they are seeking blessing | 00:26 |
| jeremiah_ | Yeah, there is a certain fomality with the working groups that I like | 00:26 |
| DawnFoster | like I said earlier, semantics | 00:26 |
| jeremiah_ | They have a sort of mission, a sort of charter | 00:26 |
| lbt | nonetheless the semantics seemed to stop the l8n people from having a meeting point | 00:27 |
| DawnFoster | I'm just saying that we should hold off on the working groups until we see what the project structure looks like | 00:27 |
| lbt | and I merely use them as an example... | 00:27 |
| DawnFoster | then we can see what working groups we need to fill in the gaps | 00:27 |
| jeremiah_ | What do you mean by "project structure"? | 00:27 |
| lbt | but if this is a community project | 00:27 |
| lbt | then the project structure starts with these WGs | 00:27 |
| lbt | and evolves | 00:27 |
| DawnFoster | it was discussed in the last tsg meeting | 00:27 |
| lbt | (and is shaped) | 00:28 |
| jeremiah_ | Yeah, Nokia and Intel need to loosen the reins here a bit. | 00:28 |
| lbt | no, it was disseminated | 00:28 |
| lbt | not discussed | 00:28 |
| lbt | :) | 00:28 |
| DawnFoster | the code repositories will be available next week | 00:28 |
| thiago_home | jeremiah_: will happen, as soon as there's a momentum | 00:28 |
| DawnFoster | people will be encouraged to submit and contribute to the project. | 00:28 |
| jeremiah_ | Awesome. :-) | 00:28 |
| DawnFoster | those that contribute great stuff will rise to commit / maintainer levels | 00:29 |
| DawnFoster | just like every other good open source project | 00:29 |
| jeremiah_ | Still, I'd like formal approval for the debian working group | 00:29 |
| lbt | gah... | 00:29 |
| lbt | ADSL went down | 00:29 |
| thiago_home | why? | 00:29 |
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| thiago_home | you're going to do it anyway, right? | 00:29 |
| thiago_home | what do you expect to gain from having a WG that you wouldn't otherwise? | 00:30 |
| jeremiah_ | But it is important that the code sharing is seen as co-operative, not a fork | 00:30 |
| thiago_home | yes | 00:30 |
| thiago_home | don't take me the wrong way. I'm trying to help you. | 00:30 |
| jeremiah_ | I understand :) | 00:31 |
| thiago_home | you're saying that there can be no code sharing without a WG? | 00:31 |
| * thiago_home hopes it's not | 00:31 | |
| jeremiah_ | I hope I'm not taking it the wrong way :) | 00:31 |
| jeremiah_ | No, your point is valid: it's all GPL so what is the big deal? | 00:31 |
| thiago_home | right | 00:31 |
| lbt | heh | 00:31 |
| thiago_home | what is it that you need from a WG? | 00:32 |
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| w00t_ | badges! | 00:32 |
| jeremiah_ | But I think if we can get a commitment from MeeGo that official code sharing, dedicating some server space, that will attract devs | 00:32 |
| thiago_home | do you need a place in the website so that people know who to contact and contribute? | 00:32 |
| * thiago_home hopes that doesn't need a WG | 00:32 | |
| jeremiah_ | That would be nice | 00:32 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: I guess I'm trying to point out the areas I perceive as being 'off' and being constructive to make sure they are presented in a way that minimises flames | 00:32 |
| lbt | thiago_home: they need access to the OBS | 00:32 |
| thiago_home | ah, server space for hosting the Debian repositories | 00:33 |
| jeremiah_ | I just think having a formal declaration gives us something to point to when push comes to shove | 00:33 |
| lbt | frankly | 00:33 |
| thiago_home | ok, put that in the propsal | 00:33 |
| thiago_home | that _might_ be a reason for a WG, so that they can formally vet the use of hardware resources | 00:33 |
| DawnFoster | lbt: I think it's hard to tell what's working / not until we can get people looking at the code | 00:34 |
| jeremiah_ | thiago_home: Exactly! | 00:34 |
| jeremiah_ | Good point | 00:34 |
| w00t_ | DawnFoster: fwiw, while I understand there are some special circumstances due to trying to bootstrap a project rather than it starting and growing organically, I have to say that I think it's healthy that people (such as you) are concerned and taking an interest | 00:34 |
| w00t_ | er, 'you' being lbt | 00:34 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: the feeling (or lack) of inclusion is not great | 00:34 |
| w00t_ | multitasking too much | 00:34 |
| thiago_home | OTOH, I don't think you'll get "showstopper" status. If the DEB repository is broken, the release continues. But I guess you'd have parallel releases, slightly delayed from the RPM releases. | 00:34 |
| jeremiah_ | That seems totally fair | 00:35 |
| lbt | OBS can prioritise builds BTW | 00:35 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: Can you explain? | 00:35 |
| jeremiah_ | Prioritize rpm over deb? | 00:35 |
| jeremiah_ | Why would you ever want to do that? | 00:35 |
| jeremiah_ | </sarcasm> | 00:36 |
| lbt | eg in the Suse OBS 'Factory' jobs get more CPU time than home: jobs | 00:36 |
| jeremiah_ | okay. | 00:36 |
| DawnFoster | what is happening now is typical of how open source projects start. they start with one person or a small group coming up with the initial code or vision for the project. Linux started this way. | 00:36 |
| * jeremiah_ stares at lbt | 00:36 | |
| jeremiah_ | DawnFoster: Not really. | 00:36 |
| DawnFoster | then everything gets opened up and it becomes a real open source project | 00:36 |
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| lbt | jeremiah_: so this is a +ve thing... it doesn't allow the "you'll hog resource argument" ;) | 00:36 |
| jeremiah_ | DawnFoster: Except in this case it is Nokia and Intel and they are taking community code | 00:37 |
| jeremiah_ | So it isn't really an organic open source project | 00:37 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: yeah, 1 or 2 is usually individuals, not 1 or 2 "teams of 200 people" | 00:38 |
| lbt | <grin> | 00:38 |
| jeremiah_ | heh | 00:38 |
| jeremiah_ | *nods* | 00:38 |
| lbt | and honestly. that is the problem | 00:38 |
| lbt | you kinda fail to address that elephant... | 00:38 |
| lbt | another interesting point.... no-one else has a Meego itch yet | 00:38 |
| DawnFoster | I don't make the strategic decisions on the project. | 00:38 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: I know - we expect great things of you though :) | 00:39 |
| jeremiah_ | DawnFoster: No, you're stuck defending them to us lot. :-) | 00:39 |
| DawnFoster | :) | 00:39 |
| jeremiah_ | BTW, I think everyone believes you are doing a great job. | 00:39 |
| jeremiah_ | You seem to be reasonable and friendly | 00:39 |
| lbt | we know you are one of the community and I believe you want to understand | 00:40 |
| jeremiah_ | But often open source types have strong opinions | 00:40 |
| DawnFoster | At some point, we need to accept the decisions that have been made and focus on making things more awesome over time. | 00:40 |
| DawnFoster | thanks | 00:40 |
| * lbt looks at jeremiah_ and the .deb-bers after that comment ;) | 00:40 | |
| * jeremiah_ tries to think of something polite to say | 00:41 | |
| lbt | (from the comfort of his sqenny install) | 00:41 |
| DawnFoster | There will be things we can't change - historical stuff that has already happened. My focus is to figure out what's next and how to make sure that the community is included in a meaningful way | 00:41 |
| jeremiah_ | In debian we fight a lot, and we rarely "accept the decisions" | 00:41 |
| lbt | yeah - and I think letting some organic growth occur would be nice | 00:41 |
| lbt | then cherry pick from it | 00:41 |
| jeremiah_ | I will say this - if you guys are serious about community, you'll have to change your DNA a little bit | 00:42 |
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| jeremiah_ | Get out of your comfort zone | 00:42 |
| jeremiah_ | Let the community make decisions | 00:42 |
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| thiago_home | will happen | 00:42 |
| thiago_home | (eventually) | 00:42 |
| jeremiah_ | thiago_home: Well, folks like you are big time community members | 00:42 |
| thiago_home | ?me is also Nokia | 00:43 |
| jeremiah_ | So I guess it already has happened | 00:43 |
| jeremiah_ | And OTC is pretty cool | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | s/\?/\// | 00:43 |
| jeremiah_ | Yeah but there are lots of Nokians that are debian people too | 00:43 |
| lbt | o/ | 00:43 |
| * jeremiah_ pats lbt on the head | 00:43 | |
| thiago_home | never used Debian | 00:43 |
| jeremiah_ | Ubuntu? | 00:43 |
| thiago_home | in fact, the open source community I come from is very different | 00:43 |
| DawnFoster | At intel, we fight and argue and try to convince people to make a particular decision, but once a decision has been made, we work to make sure that the project is successful even when the decision didn't go our way | 00:44 |
| thiago_home | it's completely anarchic, no committees, no working groups | 00:44 |
| jeremiah_ | I may be confusing you with another Thiago | 00:44 |
| thiago_home | rules are mostly oral and tradition | 00:44 |
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| jeremiah_ | Sounds like the same community I come from | 00:45 |
| * thiago_home is talking about KDE | 00:45 | |
| jeremiah_ | I thought so - no you're the Thiago I was thinking of | 00:45 |
| jeremiah_ | You've done a lot of KDE stuff haven't you? | 00:45 |
| lbt | DawnFoster: the problem with that is that it doesn't fit with "meritoratic" ..... /me sees "OK, we'll use Qt but you have to use rpm 'cos we invested tons in it and we'd look foolish switching back" | 00:45 |
| jeremiah_ | heh | 00:46 |
| lbt | and it'll take a *lot* to convince me otherwise | 00:46 |
| lbt | OTOH.... so what :) | 00:46 |
| thiago_home | lbt: think of it the other way: "we'll use Qt and we're building a distro using RPM" | 00:46 |
| lbt | thiago_home: yeah - it was a negotiation and Meego is the compromise | 00:47 |
| lbt | I get it :) | 00:47 |
| DawnFoster | like I said, I'm going to accept the decisions that have been made. | 00:47 |
| lbt | it's actually good | 00:47 |
| thiago_home | no one is denying the DEB working group, but I didn't see any convincing arguments to get Intel and Nokia to change | 00:47 |
| lbt | sorry, you meant Meego there ..... yes? | 00:47 |
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| DawnFoster | it's more of a personal philosophy - I like to focus on the areas where I can have a real impact | 00:47 |
| jeremiah_ | thiago_home: community | 00:47 |
| jeremiah_ | That is the reason | 00:47 |
| jeremiah_ | Let's face it, Moblin failed | 00:47 |
| DawnFoster | beating myself up over things I can't change ins't the best use of my time | 00:47 |
| jeremiah_ | It never built a community | 00:47 |
| thiago_home | anyway, let's stop before we go into the RPM-vs-DEB again | 00:47 |
| jeremiah_ | And the debian community is huge | 00:48 |
| lbt | thiago_home: "no one is denying the DEB working group, but I didn't see any convincing arguments to get *Intel and Nokia* to change" ??? | 00:48 |
| thiago_home | yeah, it didn't build a community, but it did ship devices | 00:48 |
| thiago_home | so one some people's books, it was a success | 00:48 |
| jeremiah_ | Dell ships Ubuntu machines | 00:48 |
| DawnFoster | Moblin had a community of core OS developers, a strong one, but not a big user community | 00:48 |
| DawnFoster | we shouldn't confuse the two | 00:48 |
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| jeremiah_ | Well a bunch of crackerjack Intel devs does not a community make | 00:49 |
| lbt | this is the point .... the I/N partners have a lot of weight... and we should not pretend that Meego is not, first and foremost, for their benefit | 00:49 |
| jeremiah_ | I have no problem with that | 00:49 |
| jeremiah_ | We all gotta eat | 00:49 |
| lbt | instead we would be wiser to say that benefitting I/N will be a good thing for the OSS community | 00:50 |
| jeremiah_ | I hope Nokia and Intel make a ton of money on MeeGo | 00:50 |
| lbt | but I seem to see too many people denying it... | 00:50 |
| thiago_home | me too, but I'm also hoping that we get more partners | 00:50 |
| thiago_home | so that I&N's influence dilutes | 00:50 |
| thiago_home | *hence* the community | 00:50 |
| jeremiah_ | Sounds cool - as long as we don't get companys buying their way onto the TSG | 00:51 |
| lbt | indeed - so the work happening now is not 'normal' community growth | 00:51 |
| ml-mobile | thiago_home: an ARM vendor on board would be great :) | 00:51 |
| lbt | we are an engineered community :) | 00:51 |
| thiago_home | ml-mobile: yeah | 00:51 |
| jeremiah_ | Yeah - someone from ARM would be awesom | 00:51 |
| jeremiah_ | e | 00:51 |
| DawnFoster | people from the community who contribute great things to the projects will rise up to have more influential roles (meritocracy) | 00:51 |
| ml-mobile | either ARM itself or, say, TI | 00:51 |
| * lbt wants someone from AMD since the intel devs have crippled Meego to not run on non-intel HW | 00:51 | |
| jeremiah_ | I wonder if one can convince TI to join? | 00:51 |
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| jeremiah_ | lbt: Wha? | 00:52 |
| thiago_home | jeremiah_: hopefully | 00:52 |
| jeremiah_ | :) | 00:52 |
| lbt | jeremiah_: Meego requires ssse3 .... so the binaries will not run on even AMD Phenom | 00:52 |
| jeremiah_ | Intel is consciously making MeeGo cross-platform | 00:52 |
| ml-mobile | lbt: if it can be run on ARM then un-breaking it for AMD is entirely valid. | 00:52 |
| thiago_home | lbt: does AMD have any low-power device that can be used in one of MeeGo's target devices? | 00:53 |
| * thiago_home is asking, he doesn't know | 00:53 | |
| * jeremiah_ ask the google gods about ssse3 | 00:53 | |
| lbt | thiago_home: not sure... but the decision means you can't develop on non-Intel HW | 00:53 |
| lbt | and by that I mean not 'top of the line' Intel HW... old Pentium-4.... no good | 00:54 |
| thiago_home | the decision was the other way around: we'll run on low-power mobile x86 processors. That's Atom today. Atom has SSSE3, so we may as well use it. | 00:54 |
| lbt | yeah, but I can't develop for it | 00:54 |
| thiago_home | otherwise, the next thing you know, we're building binaries targetting 80386 processors | 00:54 |
| ShadowJK | Via Nano also has ssse3 :-) | 00:54 |
| lbt | the SDK won't run on non-intel | 00:54 |
| thiago_home | lbt: sure you can. You can develop for ARM on your x86. | 00:54 |
| ShadowJK | Via Nano | 00:55 |
| lbt | yes - thanks to qemu | 00:55 |
| lbt | but there's no ssse3 qemu | 00:55 |
| thiago_home | no, native x86 SDK. | 00:55 |
| lbt | it's not x86 | 00:55 |
| lbt | it's x86-ssse3 | 00:55 |
| thiago_home | build using the local compiler for doing local builds | 00:55 |
| lbt | and that, AFAIK, won't run on AMD | 00:55 |
| thiago_home | build with the cross-compiler when deploying to device | 00:55 |
| thiago_home | the same rules that apply to ARM | 00:55 |
| lbt | not really | 00:55 |
| lbt | since qemu will run intermediate build binaries | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | there's no qemu | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | well, not for the building | 00:56 |
| lbt | eg building Qt for ARM, I get qmake binary (ARM) | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | wrong | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | you get an x86 binary | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | moc, qmake, uic are x86 binaries | 00:56 |
| lbt | no, I don't | 00:56 |
| thiago_home | well, I do, using the standard Qt cross-compilation flags | 00:56 |
| lbt | I don't using the OBS | 00:57 |
| thiago_home | that's also what is are in the Maemo 5 packages | 00:57 |
| thiago_home | there is no ARM moc for Maemo 5 | 00:57 |
| lbt | no, you don't currently ship an ARM moc for Maemo 5 | 00:58 |
| lbt | but some OBS processes produce one internally | 00:58 |
| lbt | and qemu handles it | 00:58 |
| lbt | that's not the point :) | 00:58 |
| lbt | the point is that for x86 | 00:58 |
| thiago_home | no, it's not | 00:58 |
| thiago_home | my point is that there's nothing stopping you | 00:58 |
| lbt | the qmake is ssse3 flavoured | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | if you can develop for ARM without an ARM device, why can't you develop for Atom without an Atom device? | 00:59 |
| lbt | qemu | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | that's not an answer | 00:59 |
| lbt | it is :) | 00:59 |
| lbt | qemu emulates ARM when needed | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | you're saying that qemu doesn't emulate SSSE3? That's a technical detail that can be fixed. | 00:59 |
| thiago_home | but what I'm telling you is that you don't _need_ to run ARM/Atom code | 01:00 |
| lbt | good | 01:00 |
| lbt | no... | 01:00 |
| thiago_home | you run entirely local-processor code, standard x86 | 01:00 |
| lbt | you don't | 01:00 |
| lbt | yes... you dig deep into the system and extract every cross-built binary by hand | 01:00 |
| thiago_home | you may want to, but then again, everything is open source. You need a tool that was built only for Atom? Rebuild it :-) | 01:00 |
| lbt | build systems that generate intermediate tools have this problem | 01:01 |
| thiago_home | yes, I know | 01:01 |
| lbt | or build systems that run the resulting code to test it | 01:01 |
| lbt | one would normally assume | 01:01 |
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| lbt | that an x86 build on AMD cpu would work without qemu | 01:02 |
| lbt | this is not the case for Meego | 01:02 |
| lbt | and right now | 01:02 |
| lbt | there is no qemu-like solution | 01:02 |
| lbt | so if you have an AMD cpu desktop you are sool | 01:02 |
| lbt | for that matter if you have a >1year old, non "top of the range" laptop you are out of luck too | 01:03 |
| thiago_home | I don't understand why you want to rebuild a tool that is already in the distribution and run the cross-compiled code. | 01:03 |
| lbt | half the devs turning up for training inside nokia could not do Meego development | 01:04 |
| thiago_home | heh, those Nokia-approved laptops with disk encryption and running Windows are useless for development | 01:04 |
| thiago_home | :-P | 01:04 |
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| lbt | well, it was more to do with the CPU not having ssse3 but.. yeah :) | 01:05 |
| ShadowJK | Nokia Booklet is only halfway there :) | 01:05 |
| w00t_ | thiago_home: I suppose you don't use windows on a day to day basis? :P | 01:05 |
| thiago_home | w00t_: I also don't use Nokia-approved laptops | 01:05 |
| w00t_ | ah | 01:05 |
| thiago_home | being from the Trolltech side of the acquisition has its advantages | 01:05 |
| w00t_ | hehe | 01:06 |
| thiago_home | we kept some processes, like buying developer machines | 01:06 |
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| thiago_home | we tried buying using Nokia processes. | 01:06 |
| thiago_home | once. Never again. | 01:06 |
| thiago_home | even Marketing has stopped using those Nokia-approved Windows laptops. | 01:06 |
| w00t_ | hehe | 01:07 |
| w00t_ | on the bright side | 01:07 |
| w00t_ | at least they -have- hardware purchasing | 01:07 |
| w00t_ | the place I left recently had no hardware newer than 4-5 years old | 01:08 |
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| microlith | sounds like intel and their laptops :) | 01:08 |
| * microlith still has a T43 from 2005 | 01:08 | |
| w00t_ | well, hey, if it still works, then fine | 01:09 |
| microlith | not when McAfee decides it needs to start a scan mid-day | 01:09 |
| w00t_ | but when you're having to constantly fight dying/overworked hardware, you're losing a lot of efficiency and goodwill | 01:09 |
| w00t_ | I haven't run windows at work for a very long time | 01:09 |
| w00t_ | so I wouldn't know about McAfee | 01:09 |
| microlith | you're fortunate | 01:09 |
| * ShadowJK only ever sees antivirus software that has either stopped working and is blocking system components from working, or antivirus that has let a virus through and is interfering with my attempts to remove the virus | 01:11 | |
| thiago_home | microlith: could be worse | 01:11 |
| thiago_home | microlith: could be a corporate-mandated upgrade | 01:11 |
| microlith | true | 01:12 |
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| thiago_home | lbt: anyway, please ensure someone knows about qemu not emulating SSSE3 | 01:15 |
| thiago_home | I personally don't think it's a big deal, but if you think it is, raise it up | 01:15 |
| lbt | thiago_home: I'm not even sure it's possible... | 01:15 |
| lbt | I asked on #qemu but no-one answered | 01:16 |
| lbt | it certainly means that OBS local builds cannot be done without it :) | 01:17 |
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| lcuk | thiago_home, what was wrong with the booklets if i might ask | 01:22 |
| lcuk | or rather the nokia approved ones (spec? model?) | 01:22 |
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| thiago_home | lcuk: slow processor, slow disk, disk encryption, anti-virus and lots of crap installed that consumed CPU time | 01:39 |
| lcuk | how on earth are you gonna cope on maemo with the even lower overheads! | 01:40 |
| lcuk | errr arm | 01:40 |
| thiago_home | didn't get the question | 01:40 |
| lcuk | i gather you will be using meego to develop meego ? | 01:41 |
| lcuk | hence development will be possible from one of the arm devices | 01:41 |
| thiago_home | no | 01:43 |
| thiago_home | I plan on continuing to use Mandriva to develop | 01:43 |
| lcuk | will it be possible tho? | 01:44 |
| lcuk | would the qt creator ide work on meego? | 01:44 |
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| lcuk | or would a meego specific ide have to be built | 01:45 |
| thiago_home | it's Linux, so I don't see why not | 01:45 |
| thiago_home | but depends on your form factor, though | 01:45 |
| thiago_home | a netbook may be a dev platform | 01:45 |
| thiago_home | a handheld or a TV set-top-box, very unlikely | 01:45 |
| lcuk | theres devs who go through that pain! | 01:46 |
| ShadowJK | (lcuk is one of them) | 01:46 |
| lcuk | theres one guy from maemo he sat on train for 3 hours a day | 01:46 |
| lcuk | not any more acually ShadowJK | 01:46 |
| * lcuk will again soon tho | 01:46 | |
| DawnFoster | admit it, you just like the challenge of seeing if you can make it work :) | 01:47 |
| javispedro | i'm sure the qt creator ide already works under a debian chroot :) | 01:47 |
| javispedro | and probably under fremantle itself if someone tested it.. | 01:47 |
| lcuk | DawnFoster, personally? i have it stated i want a visual ide on my big daddy computer | 01:48 |
| lcuk | ive got a lot of it there | 01:48 |
| lcuk | the same code should run in my hand too - and for over a year i did happily | 01:48 |
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| * Stskeeps yawns and boots up his devices | 08:42 | |
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| lbt | morning Stskeeps | 11:40 |
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| lbt | ANNOUNCE: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group .... Looking for comments and input. If we want to get this before the TSG this week we need to do it this weekend | 11:59 |
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| maiden | hello | 12:28 |
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| maiden | hello? | 12:44 |
| lbt | hello maiden | 12:44 |
| lbt | heffer: any thoughts on how to start with that packaging day? | 12:45 |
| lbt | heffer: I'm thinking 10th of April | 12:45 |
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| Stskeeps | morn lbt | 12:57 |
| * Stskeeps is in love with his new car, a2dp works flawlessly, i can charge my n900 with the in-built usb port | 12:58 | |
| maiden | any word of meego on the n900? | 13:01 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: <grin> | 13:01 |
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| Stskeeps | maiden: yes, it will be reference device for meego arm | 13:01 |
| maiden | so, if i buy a n900 now, i shuld be able to reflash it and install meego? | 13:02 |
| Stskeeps | keep in mind meego is still in it's infancy | 13:02 |
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| maiden | yes i know :D | 13:02 |
| Stskeeps | and noone says it'll be a official nokia meego :P | 13:02 |
| Stskeeps | and by meego i don't mean harmattan | 13:03 |
| maiden | that is not a problem :P | 13:03 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: yes, i go for the geeky things :P | 13:09 |
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| heffer | lbt, 10th of April wouldn't work out for me because i'm on a seminar at that time | 13:28 |
| heffer | lbt, by the way sorry that I didn't make it to the meeting last time | 13:28 |
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| lbt | heffer: OK.. I'm at a meeting on 17th... how about 11th/18th ? | 13:43 |
| lbt | want it to be ASAP after day 1... | 13:44 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: This should be done on the mailing lists | 13:44 |
| lbt | and we should think about announcing it | 13:44 |
| heffer | that would be no problem for me | 13:44 |
| heffer | yes | 13:44 |
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| jeremiah_ | The last meeting for the repo team was a bit problematic, held 48 hours after annoucnment | 13:44 |
| lbt | jeremiah_: yep.... but I'm just being opportunistic since heffer is here | 13:44 |
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| heffer | i'll post a call for help to our fedora packaging/mini guys that have been working on moblin for some time already | 13:45 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: *gein* | 13:45 |
| lbt | no, it was held about a week+ after announcements | 13:45 |
| jeremiah_ | heffer: That would be awesome | 13:45 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: No - it was on a friday and the meeting was sunday | 13:45 |
| lbt | jeremiah_: read the ml archives... :) | 13:45 |
| lbt | anhow... water/bridge | 13:45 |
| jeremiah_ | okay, true dat | 13:46 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: I thought you made some interesting points yesterday | 13:47 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: Good to see you so involved. | 13:47 |
| lbt | heh - it's finding time isn't it :) | 13:47 |
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| jeremiah_ | Yeah. Finding time is key - but you work for Nokia now? | 13:49 |
| jeremiah_ | So you can put more time into MeeGo/ | 13:49 |
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| jeremiah_ | ? | 13:49 |
| lbt | not really - the nokia work is purely internal | 13:49 |
| jeremiah_ | "internal" | 13:49 |
| jeremiah_ | You're doing it in your stomach? | 13:49 |
| lbt | although I make sure that as much as possible can be externalised | 13:49 |
| lbt | nah, it's corporate process stuff | 13:50 |
| jeremiah_ | Oooh | 13:50 |
| jeremiah_ | process | 13:50 |
| lbt | well, defining and automating it | 13:50 |
| jeremiah_ | My god. Process is like walking in pancake batter | 13:50 |
| lbt | QA, OBS development | 13:50 |
| lbt | yeah - but we do release things... OBS/LDAP integration | 13:50 |
| lbt | QA hooks | 13:50 |
| RST38h | Documents... | 13:51 |
| jeremiah_ | That is awesom e valuable stuff | 13:51 |
| RST38h | Process guidelines.... | 13:51 |
| lbt | yeah | 13:51 |
| jeremiah_ | which no one follows | 13:51 |
| * RST38h smirks | 13:51 | |
| lbt | I'm getting us to split the docs to internal/external | 13:51 |
| lbt | so 'how to get started on Meego OBS' | 13:51 |
| lbt | should end up on Meego.org | 13:51 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: I would love to see that - that is sorely needed | 13:52 |
| lbt | yeah... we've been asked not to push it until day 1... it wouldn't ease tensions :) | 13:52 |
| jeremiah_ | I don't understand the rationale . . . | 13:52 |
| lbt | jeremiah_: but if you ever did my Mer tutorial you'd find it familiar.... | 13:52 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Guidelines are actually important. They let you blame people when something goes wrong. | 13:53 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: I haven't, I'll read your Mer tutorial to get prepared. :-) | 13:53 |
| lbt | yup... and putting them on a wiki lets me tell you to fix it yourself ;) | 13:53 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Truer words were never spoken. =) | 13:53 |
| lbt | actually, your group needs to get stuck in to the Mer docs | 13:53 |
| lbt | they are the best .deb docs around for OBS | 13:53 |
| jeremiah_ | The debian group? | 13:53 |
| lbt | yes | 13:54 |
| jeremiah_ | Really? Cool | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: you have to consider that all the errors in materials will be paramount for failures when you start a huge organisation such as meego on day 1 | 13:54 |
| jeremiah_ | Can I put a URL on the wiki from you? | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | so i don't blame them for not pushing until day 1 | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | adverse effects etc | 13:54 |
| lbt | jeremiah_: yes - link to Mer docs by all means | 13:54 |
| jeremiah_ | You've gone all corporate Stskeeps | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: no, brainwash | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:54 |
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| jeremiah_ | You have completely forgottent they (Intel Nokia) need us more than we need them | 13:54 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: What do they use for brainwashing anyway? | 13:55 |
| jeremiah_ | Moblin failed | 13:55 |
| jeremiah_ | It was a disaster | 13:55 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: sauna and jaegermeister | 13:55 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Wrong. | 13:55 |
| lbt | jaegermeister... I forgot! | 13:55 |
| jeremiah_ | Oh yeah? | 13:55 |
| jeremiah_ | Where is it now? | 13:55 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Neither Intel nor Nokia are human beings, hence they neither need you nor understand that they need you | 13:55 |
| koupsa | hello all | 13:55 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Oh that, yeah, fair enough. But they need money. And with community they can get money | 13:56 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: i'm not entirely sure about need us more than we need them.. i think it's also about us needing them as much as we need them | 13:56 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Everything I need is already open | 13:56 |
| jeremiah_ | Why do I need to get it from MeeGo? | 13:56 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: you have fredom not to do so :P | 13:56 |
| jeremiah_ | Indeed. | 13:56 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Not really, even if all of us buy ourselves devices, it will still be way less than the revenue streams these behemots become interested in | 13:56 |
| lbt | how come the distmaster and the debmaster haven't commented on the package WG email? | 13:56 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Surely, but it is not us buying the devices they care about | 13:57 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: btw, you're leaving us in june? | 13:57 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Somebody still will. | 13:57 |
| jeremiah_ | They want us to know the technology so they can hire us, so they can point to momentum | 13:57 |
| jeremiah_ | This is key | 13:57 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Somebody has been buying N76, right? :) | 13:57 |
| Stskeeps | lbt, repo wg or package wg? | 13:57 |
| lbt | oh,err, repo... :) | 13:57 |
| jeremiah_ | When you evaluate your next widget in the corporate world - you look for "thriving ecosystem" | 13:58 |
| jeremiah_ | Intel Nokia need a thriving ecosystem | 13:58 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: The actual key is to keep head cheeses under impression that the community can be of some use (what exact use is not important) | 13:58 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: You have to tell them that directly | 13:58 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Nokia claims there is a "thriving Symbian ecosystem" :) | 13:58 |
| Stskeeps | a cesspool is a ecosystem | 13:59 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Yeah, I resigned as debmaster before the MeeGo announcement | 13:59 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: where? | 13:59 |
| jeremiah_ | I'll leave at the end of my contract | 13:59 |
| Stskeeps | (i first read it yesterday, so) | 13:59 |
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| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: I haven't made it public thinking that Nokia would want to do something their way | 13:59 |
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| RST38h | jeremiah: why leave though? no use for your skills at Nokia? | 13:59 |
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| jeremiah_ | RST38h: I love Nokia, I know you guys might think I hate them, but I don't | 14:00 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: I am simply not doing a good job as debmaster | 14:00 |
| jeremiah_ | Someone else should step in | 14:00 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: hrm, okay - hired by community usually means you tell to council and such i guess? but i dunno | 14:00 |
| * RST38h neither loves not hates Nokia. Same goes for Intel actually. | 14:00 | |
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| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Umm, of course I told them _first_ | 14:00 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: ah, so they didn't communicate it further | 14:00 |
| jeremiah_ | Nope | 14:00 |
| Stskeeps | lovely | 14:01 |
| jeremiah_ | I told the council back in December that I was _thinking_ of leaving | 14:01 |
| Stskeeps | there's some degree of reason why i don't mind a community reset in meego | 14:01 |
| jeremiah_ | I wanted a completely different architecture for the servers | 14:01 |
| jeremiah_ | I wanted drbd, two machines for the repos, reprepro | 14:01 |
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| jeremiah_ | I set some of that stuff up | 14:01 |
| jeremiah_ | It was totally ignored | 14:01 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Can still be done, outside of maemo.org | 14:01 |
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| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Not really | 14:02 |
| jeremiah_ | I tried to open up the repos with rsync | 14:02 |
| jeremiah_ | Didn't get far | 14:02 |
| jeremiah_ | "Firewall" on the IPS's side | 14:02 |
| lbt | I'm hoping to see some changes in the maemo.org build/repo area too | 14:02 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: In fact, it may be well worth it: lots of people told me they are frustrated with the current Extras guidelines and do not want to even start trying to get there | 14:02 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt: It will never happen | 14:02 |
| jeremiah_ | There are entrenched interests | 14:02 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Yeah, people are leaving and pulling their software | 14:03 |
| jeremiah_ | Sadly | 14:03 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: qole has an independent repo. Maybe you can get together and come up with an alternative repo system? | 14:03 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: also, talk to rm_you and me if you need PackRat sources for browsing the repo online | 14:03 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Oh reall? I didn't know that | 14:04 |
| jeremiah_ | I don't want to split the community though, I wanted to work from inside out | 14:04 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: This will not split the community | 14:04 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: It will simply provide an alternative to Maemo Extras, that's all | 14:04 |
| jeremiah_ | Well, I don't want to appear to split the community | 14:04 |
| lbt | TBH a split is better than fragmentation | 14:05 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: It is better to have a single organized alternative than have a dozen of disorganized alternatives which are almost sure to spring up | 14:05 |
| jeremiah_ | I actually think the Extras process is pretty good, it just needs some tweaking. | 14:05 |
| Stskeeps | and more hands on the software managing it | 14:05 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Yes! | 14:05 |
| jeremiah_ | Exactly! | 14:05 |
| RST38h | Well, as you said, not gonna happen | 14:06 |
| jeremiah_ | But the hands who are managing it do not want help | 14:06 |
| RST38h | So, the plan B is to create an Extras Junior outside and manage it by community | 14:06 |
| jeremiah_ | Well, isn't MeeGo plan B? | 14:06 |
| RST38h | MeeGo is a corporate plan B | 14:06 |
| jeremiah_ | Shouldn't we focus on building something cool from the ground up? | 14:06 |
| RST38h | No | 14:07 |
| jeremiah_ | Yup - it is corporate linux | 14:07 |
| jeremiah_ | But nothing wrong with that | 14:07 |
| RST38h | IMHO we should focus on providing what community needs | 14:07 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Hmm. How do we determine what that is though? | 14:07 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: i like to see it as a possibility to reset bad decisions of the past | 14:07 |
| RST38h | NOT what somebody's idealized idea of the community needs | 14:07 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: I totally agree. | 14:07 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Pretty simple, actually | 14:07 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: what were bad decisions is a bit subjective though | 14:08 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Put yourself into the boots of an average power user | 14:08 |
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| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Yes | 14:08 |
| RST38h | Forget the bad decisions, the blame, etc as it is not gonna be constructive | 14:08 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Even you and I don't always agree so it is going to be hard to create a reset button everyone is happy with | 14:08 |
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| Stskeeps | RST38h: i think we should define community as non-attached-to-meego-teams-with-logins-to-central-obs-and-such | 14:08 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Well, I know this is contraversial, but I want an Free Software repo | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | and work how we can help bringing more contributors | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | like, staging area for talents | 14:09 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: I really do not think it is worth starting a cporation-denying revolution here :) | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: not a corporation denying | 14:09 |
| jeremiah_ | The only way to ensure all the code is open is to insist on OSI licenses | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | i worded it wrong | 14:09 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Ok, let us return to that scenario | 14:09 |
| jeremiah_ | :) | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i meant it as the playground for new features, applications, recompiles of entire platform, etc | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | the stuff that is outside release schedules | 14:09 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: You are a simple user. You want to: 1) easy access to apps 2) steady stream of apps 3) way to keep up with the new apps 4) some way to avoid lemons | 14:10 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Mer? :) | 14:10 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: that is one way of seeing it. | 14:10 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: i'll be very loud the moment they put closed source into the shared platform amongst devices, at least | 14:10 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Let us forget about all the grand plans and address these items one by one | 14:11 |
| jeremiah_ | Awesome. =) | 14:11 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: #1 is basically addresses with PackRat. | 14:11 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: on the hardware level opinions vary, :P | 14:11 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: And you have more experience there than I | 14:11 |
| jeremiah_ | So I will defer to your better judgement | 14:11 |
| jeremiah_ | But I believe we can make some progress therre tooo | 14:11 |
| Stskeeps | yes, of course | 14:11 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: #2 is solved by having exactly TWO repos (staging and safe) with really easy, informal promotion (see Diablo Extras) | 14:12 |
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| RST38h | jeremiah: #3 is solved by writing some more PHP and talking to my-maemo guy to manage it | 14:12 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: #4 is solved by letting users comment on apps in #3 and #1 | 14:12 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: All of this is doable at the cost of 1-2 weeks of somebody's evening time. | 14:13 |
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| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Okay | 14:13 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: There is really no need to discuss it. Implement it, advertise it on tmo, collect comments from tmo and irc, make modifications, rinse, repeat a few times | 14:13 |
| jeremiah_ | Why aren't you proposing this to the TSG then? | 14:14 |
| jeremiah_ | I mean, I have my pet project already. | 14:14 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Because I am 100% sure TSG will thank me and go its own way | 14:14 |
| jeremiah_ | Ah. | 14:14 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: This happened to me before, with Maemo.org. I am not losing any more of my time again, by proposing to TSG etc | 14:14 |
| jeremiah_ | okay | 14:14 |
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| jeremiah_ | I really think that the community should propose this to the TSG to get the most traction. | 14:18 |
| jeremiah_ | I am nobody to the MeeGo people | 14:18 |
| Stskeeps | we're all nobodies :P | 14:19 |
| RST38h | Ok, prpopse it to the TSG and claim the credit, it is all yours :) | 14:19 |
| Stskeeps | well, except for merit | 14:19 |
| * RST38h thinks somebody (not community but a person) should simply implement it | 14:19 | |
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| RST38h | In fact, have a joint server for both Maemo5 and Meego packages | 14:20 |
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| lbt | I think a lot of what has been said (whilst I got my food) relates to the RWG | 14:32 |
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| lbt | I feel that a meego-community.org OBS would pull all of that together amazingly well | 14:33 |
| lbt | as for the TSG aspect... the RWG sets out some goals - not implementation details | 14:34 |
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| jeremiah_ | Hmm, meego-community OBS eh? | 14:38 |
| jeremiah_ | Will it be bit for bit the same as the official meego OBS? | 14:38 |
| lbt | it will have a n/w link to it | 14:39 |
| lbt | so yes | 14:39 |
| jeremiah_ | And I have already asked Intel about thins, but what happens when Novell gets bought? | 14:39 |
| jeremiah_ | And OBS becomes proprietary? | 14:39 |
| lbt | it's GPL | 14:39 |
| jeremiah_ | So who will maintain it? | 14:39 |
| lbt | all that may happen is we lose the devs/maintainers | 14:39 |
| lbt | about half of whom work for LF | 14:40 |
| lbt | iirc | 14:40 |
| heffer | then just move on to koji :D until then it'll have all the features needed | 14:40 |
| jeremiah_ | ah, okay cool | 14:40 |
| * lbt stabs heffer | 14:40 | |
| heffer | :P | 14:40 |
| jeremiah_ | What is koji? | 14:40 |
| * jeremiah_ googles | 14:40 | |
| lbt | nothing to see... move along | 14:40 |
| heffer | Fedora's build system :D | 14:40 |
| heffer | i know i'm a Fanboy :P | 14:40 |
| jeremiah_ | Ah, okay | 14:40 |
| lbt | good god people.... | 14:41 |
| lbt | hey, how about building it from source... | 14:41 |
| lbt | we could.... | 14:41 |
| lbt | ooh shiney... | 14:41 |
| jeremiah_ | Looks interesting | 14:41 |
| * lbt puts head in hands | 14:41 | |
| jeremiah_ | See what it is like? | 14:41 |
| jeremiah_ | Now you know. | 14:41 |
| lbt | OK, a friend is moving house... I have to go... :) | 14:41 |
| jeremiah_ | Later! We'll talk about koji while you're gone | 14:42 |
| lbt | I'll be back l8r.... jeremiah_ I expect to see a Mer package on the Suse OBS in home:jeremiah | 14:42 |
| heffer | :P | 14:42 |
| lbt | l9r guys ;) | 14:42 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-March/000562.html | 14:42 |
| jeremiah_ | =) | 14:42 |
| * jeremiah_ surfs Stskeeps link | 14:42 | |
| jeremiah_ | Is Orange officially in? | 14:43 |
| Stskeeps | i think they were | 14:43 |
| jeremiah_ | I saw some kind of announcement, but I don't remember if they were going to commit resources or not | 14:44 |
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| jeremiah_ | Good stuff Stskeeps | 14:45 |
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| Stskeeps | that's personally how i see things in meego, though i might be wrong :P | 14:47 |
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| Stskeeps | what do you think, jeremiah_? | 14:52 |
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| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: This is a hard subject, but I think your vision is about as good as can be | 14:53 |
| jeremiah_ | I feel community has to go right through the project | 14:53 |
| jeremiah_ | Up to the top, to the build system, to the repos, etc. | 14:53 |
| jeremiah_ | If the corporate powers act as a brake then community momentum suffers | 14:53 |
| Stskeeps | i wouldn't mind seeing a representant in TSG for 'meego contributors' for instance | 14:54 |
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| jeremiah_ | And I am not convinced that coroporations have it in their DNA to allow the community to run the asylum | 14:54 |
| Stskeeps | or allow the asylum to run the community ;) | 14:54 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Well, your Vendor social contract is an awesome idea that I think they are ignoring | 14:54 |
| jeremiah_ | That kinda upsets me | 14:54 |
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| Stskeeps | code first, organisation, then we can talk about how we deal with the unruly people | 14:55 |
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| Stskeeps | :P | 14:55 |
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| Stskeeps | i don't think it's being ignored, personally | 14:55 |
| jeremiah_ | You mean unruly like me? ;) | 14:55 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: hi, does your mom have a cellar? ;) | 14:55 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Good, I don't think it should be ignored | 14:55 |
| jeremiah_ | lol | 14:56 |
| jeremiah_ | qgil: Where do you think he is writing from? | 14:56 |
| qgil | poland? | 14:56 |
| Stskeeps | qgil: actually when she was alive, then yes, she did have, but i didn't live there ;) | 14:56 |
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| jeremiah_ | heh | 15:59 |
| jeremiah_ | Cool. Glad I have an extra N900 for development bricking | 16:01 |
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| * lcuk awaits a build of meego to try on his touchscreen | 16:58 | |
| Stskeeps | what processor? | 16:59 |
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| lcuk | intel | 17:00 |
| * lcuk checks exact specs | 17:01 | |
| lcuk | but if it doesnt work ill just have to carry on using windows normal qt | 17:01 |
| lcuk | or ubuntu or something | 17:01 |
| lcuk | Intel® Pentium® Dual Core T4300 (2.1 GHz) | 17:01 |
| Stskeeps | ah, got a t4200 | 17:02 |
| jeremiah_ | Yeah, MeeGo is more geared toward Atom | 17:02 |
| lcuk | http://www.pcworld.co.uk/gbuk/product-03660998-pdt.html?srcid=198&tag=Desktops_LT&xtor=SEC-23-GOO&mctag=gg_goog_7904 | 17:02 |
| lcuk | i know jeremiah_ | 17:02 |
| Stskeeps | i do have the ssse3 extension so technically i shouldn't have a proble | 17:02 |
| Stskeeps | m | 17:02 |
| lcuk | its such a waste since high powered intel chips are so workable | 17:02 |
| jeremiah_ | Just sayin' | 17:02 |
| * lcuk nods | 17:02 | |
| jeremiah_ | SUSE's distro works nicely on that machine I think | 17:03 |
| jeremiah_ | I saw one at FOSDEM | 17:03 |
| Stskeeps | i hope for community builders where it is possible to do non-atom builds | 17:03 |
| lcuk | yeah i saw lots i might just keep windows on it for the novelty | 17:03 |
| Stskeeps | with ze powah of obs | 17:03 |
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| lcuk | didnt i see something that the home obs builders wont work because of lack of sse3 emulation | 17:04 |
| jeremiah_ | Yeah, lbt was going on about that last night | 17:04 |
| Stskeeps | ssse3 | 17:04 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:04 |
| lcuk | i asked at first about just why sse3 was required | 17:04 |
| lcuk | and i still fail to see need :) | 17:05 |
| Stskeeps | cos everything is built against it, probably | 17:05 |
| Stskeeps | i'm a believer in hwcap instead | 17:05 |
| lcuk | with however millions of potential machines | 17:05 |
| lcuk | but :) if meego is qt then its not an issue | 17:05 |
| lcuk | cos people will just write normal qt | 17:05 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: it also means you can't run a meego VM on your computer if you have a AMD processor, for instance | 17:05 |
| jeremiah_ | Ah the limits of corporate open source | 17:06 |
| Stskeeps | well, i've seen equally insane things in free software | 17:06 |
| lcuk | well once the code drops we can start building against it | 17:06 |
| Stskeeps | but i think this one is one that can be worked with | 17:06 |
| jeremiah_ | lbt seemed a little skeptical | 17:07 |
| lcuk | so - if someone buys an intel atom netbook | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | it's a few lines in a spec file most likely | 17:07 |
| Stskeeps | and a setting in OBS | 17:07 |
| lcuk | they should be able to natively install meego base on it | 17:07 |
| lcuk | and develop direct from within it | 17:07 |
| jeremiah_ | I'm not sure - I wonder which version of the Atom | 17:07 |
| jeremiah_ | I think you may need Russelville or later | 17:08 |
| jeremiah_ | But I may be mistaken | 17:08 |
| jeremiah_ | Just like you won't be able to run on any ARM chip | 17:08 |
| jeremiah_ | It'll have to be some kind of OMAP3 thingy | 17:08 |
| lcuk | it really seems silly talking about it from a performance perspective - when on the other hand they say much slower arm processors are fine :) | 17:08 |
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| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: well, that's assuming a lot too | 17:08 |
| * Stskeeps hopes for armv5, armv6+vfp and armv7 builds | 17:09 | |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:09 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: So you think it'll run on any IA Atom? | 17:09 |
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| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: You really think all those will be supported on the ARM platform? | 17:09 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: was to the omap3 part | 17:09 |
| Stskeeps | yes, they are | 17:09 |
| jeremiah_ | Already out of the box? | 17:09 |
| Stskeeps | armv7 supports armv6+vfp and backwards | 17:09 |
| Stskeeps | like debian supports >= armv4t | 17:09 |
| Stskeeps | it depends on what you choose as baseline | 17:10 |
| lcuk | why would you need a meego vm out of interest | 17:10 |
| jeremiah_ | Or what they choose as a baseline | 17:10 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: testing your stuff | 17:10 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: armv7 isn't entirely insane as a baseline | 17:10 |
| jeremiah_ | lcuk: Well so you can cross compile no? | 17:10 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: test your app directly | 17:10 |
| lcuk | only for far across | 17:10 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: No - it makes sense to me. But hey, who knows what they have up their sleeve | 17:10 |
| lcuk | im just wondering whether moblin on normal netbook + native compile | 17:10 |
| jeremiah_ | Because you'll need help from TI or ARM or someone | 17:11 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: not really | 17:11 |
| Stskeeps | gcc settings | 17:11 |
| jeremiah_ | ARM kernel drivers? | 17:11 |
| jeremiah_ | power management | 17:11 |
| jeremiah_ | All that stuff is TI | 17:11 |
| Stskeeps | the shared userland system doesn't care about kernel | 17:11 |
| Stskeeps | ARM has instruction sets | 17:11 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:11 |
| jeremiah_ | Still, we'll see where they draw the line | 17:12 |
| jeremiah_ | Some of it will care about the kernel | 17:12 |
| * qgil considers new avatar http://www.flickr.com/photos/quimgil/4466975880/in/photostream/ | 17:12 | |
| jeremiah_ | lols | 17:12 |
| Stskeeps | i'm not worried about ARM side because i think nokia is rather neutral towards processors while intel is well, not so processor neutral :) | 17:13 |
| jeremiah_ | But you need good ARM support for this to be successful | 17:13 |
| jeremiah_ | So you need someone to do that work | 17:13 |
| Stskeeps | i run ubuntu armv5 on my smartq and my n8x0 :P | 17:13 |
| jeremiah_ | Yeah, see | 17:13 |
| jeremiah_ | I mean, why won't vendors go with Ubuntu? | 17:14 |
| Stskeeps | they muck around too much | 17:14 |
| jeremiah_ | MeeGo will have to have a compelling ARM story | 17:14 |
| Stskeeps | simple as that | 17:14 |
| jeremiah_ | Otherwise it is just the Nokia netbook distro | 17:14 |
| lcuk | ubuntu moblin remix thingy isnt there? | 17:14 |
| Stskeeps | i agree on the compelling story | 17:14 |
| jeremiah_ | lcuk: I think Ubuntu has stopped their MID support | 17:15 |
| qgil | jeremiah_: because MeeGo's UX will be much better than Ubuntu's? | 17:15 |
| jeremiah_ | UX is useless unless you can run on ARM | 17:15 |
| Stskeeps | we had a pretty nice one in Mer (ARM story): 'want to use ARM? sure! zero difference in developer workflow' | 17:15 |
| qgil | MeeGo supports arm... | 17:15 |
| jeremiah_ | \o/ | 17:15 |
| jeremiah_ | But which ARM? =) | 17:16 |
| ShadowJK | arm, intel > core, and via nano | 17:16 |
| jeremiah_ | OMAP3 we know for sure | 17:16 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: i think once you have armv5 it is trivial to recompile the system for any arm | 17:16 |
| Stskeeps | well, ok, vfp support | 17:16 |
| jeremiah_ | oh cool | 17:16 |
| lcuk | or any intel | 17:16 |
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| Stskeeps | since the shared system is open source it doesn't pose much limits | 17:17 |
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| jeremiah_ | How hard is the ssse3 stuff to remove? | 17:17 |
| Stskeeps | the interesting part is what the SDK's will built against. | 17:17 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: probably modding one spec | 17:17 |
| Stskeeps | and asking obs to rebuild the thing | 17:17 |
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| lcuk | will there be obsisms i nthe source, or will it be possible to build using an alternative build system easily (if such a thing exists | 17:18 |
| jeremiah_ | lcuk: Well, if OBS is GPL, you should be able to re-create it. | 17:18 |
| jeremiah_ | If it doesn't move too fast | 17:18 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: ideally a package should build both in local build and obs | 17:19 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: could you poke me on that issue again at some point? | 17:19 |
| lcuk | sure Stskeeps :) | 17:19 |
| Stskeeps | cos it's an interesting part of packaging policy | 17:19 |
| jeremiah_ | Poke him with a flaming barge pole | 17:19 |
| * lcuk has stylus sharpener | 17:20 | |
| lcuk | nano tips :D | 17:20 |
| *** mchua_afk is now known as mchua | 17:20 | |
| lcuk | i best switch on my new toy | 17:20 |
| qgil | btw anybody (apart from jeremiah_ ) thinking of proposing a topic for the next TSG meeting? http://wiki.meego.com/TSG_meetings | 17:20 |
| jeremiah_ | Nejmen, smellyfis?! Ewww | 17:21 |
| * qgil missed that Europe is changing daylight hour and the meeting will start at 23h in Helsinki.... zzzz | 17:21 | |
| Stskeeps | qgil: chances are we'll all be busy digging through day one released materials and too busy to notice there's a TSG meeting ;) | 17:21 |
| jeremiah_ | That means 22 in Sweden. Late. | 17:21 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: What do you know that I don't know"? | 17:22 |
| qgil | Stskeeps: good, this way we will be done in 30 mins ;) | 17:22 |
| jeremiah_ | heh | 17:22 |
| lcuk | eep qgil thats late | 17:22 |
| lcuk | can it be readjusted by the hour? or too late to change right now? | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: i know my N900 lock code. | 17:22 |
| qgil | lcuk: the first one lasted 2h - doing my maths | 17:22 |
| jeremiah_ | I think we just have a clear agenda and run through the TSG meeting quickly | 17:22 |
| lcuk | yeah | 17:22 |
| jeremiah_ | The TSG is no place for the chaos of the "community process" | 17:23 |
| Stskeeps | maybe we should have a PR group for all the questions | 17:23 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:23 |
| qgil | PR? | 17:23 |
| jeremiah_ | Debian has a publicity wing | 17:23 |
| Stskeeps | well, or marketing ;) | 17:23 |
| jeremiah_ | A propaganda wing | 17:23 |
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| qgil | ok, I was just confused about you mentioning that acronym ;) | 17:23 |
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| * lcuk is torn between making a proposal and playing with new toy | 17:24 | |
| lcuk | i think toy wins | 17:24 |
| qgil | lcuk: changing time, I guss there is something beautiful in announcing a time and not changing it few days after ;) | 17:24 |
| ShadowJK | a spinbot | 17:24 |
| qgil | if nobody does, I will propose to move to 19h UTC | 17:24 |
| lcuk | of course | 17:24 |
| lcuk | maybe if we run this one at designated time | 17:24 |
| lcuk | and change it for after | 17:25 |
| qgil | yep | 17:25 |
| lcuk | its evolutionary process | 17:25 |
| jeremiah_ | That means you'll be left out you single cell ameoba! | 17:25 |
| lcuk | damn | 17:25 |
| qgil | or we could use solar time - at the end "00"s are overrated since NTP exists | 17:25 |
| lcuk | i have so many lcd screens in front of me now | 17:25 |
| lcuk | all at different sizes | 17:26 |
| lcuk | :D | 17:26 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, still waiting for mer on cig lighter tho :D | 17:26 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: i'm waiting for the first arm processor in a lighter | 17:26 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:26 |
| qgil | jeremiah_: amoebas are a lot more evolved than us | 17:27 |
| lcuk | :D | 17:27 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah_: but regarding day one, it's supposed to be end of month | 17:27 |
| Stskeeps | 31th is probably latest time for that to happen ;) | 17:27 |
| jeremiah_ | Stskeeps: Well even I knew that. =) | 17:28 |
| koupsa | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKz4qVmUz84 | 17:28 |
| koupsa | oups sorry wrong window | 17:29 |
| jeremiah_ | qgil: But they don't wear pants so how evolved are they really? | 17:29 |
| qgil | jeremiah_: imagine, they don't even need pants | 17:29 |
| jeremiah_ | Messy | 17:29 |
| qgil | koupsa: don't apologize, that video is on topic, since we were discussing amoebas and evolution | 17:31 |
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| * qgil wonders why the first "related" video offered by YouTube is "Boys boys boys - Sabrina" | 17:32 | |
| koupsa | :) it will be a nice logon song for meego | 17:32 |
| jeremiah_ | heh | 17:32 |
| lcuk | thats your personal playlist quim | 17:33 |
| lcuk | mine shows futurama ones | 17:33 |
| * Stskeeps is looking forward to futurama starting again | 17:34 | |
| lcuk | :D yeah | 17:34 |
| koupsa | about evolution http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HL1IlmEyFo | 17:35 |
| qgil | the second option was better than Sabrina: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmx3TKFxQvU&NR=1 | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | heh, c64 flashback.. | 17:36 |
| lcuk | in in #archlinux they have a bot which displays the titles of links :) | 17:36 |
| lcuk | its a cool little thing | 17:36 |
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| * lcuk goes playing with toys | 17:37 | |
| koupsa | qgil, :) like an amiga demo | 17:37 |
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| * lcuk rolls eyes at meego password strength (before i go) | 17:41 | |
| lcuk | whatinthefuckinghellareyoutalkingaboutthispasswordissecure | 17:43 |
| lcuk | is considered low strength | 17:43 |
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| leinir | it's still all lower case letters, though ;) | 17:44 |
| lcuk | i'd like to see password crackers attack something of that length tho | 17:45 |
| leinir | But a checking algorithm which actually investigated the total number of permutations would be interesting ;) | 17:45 |
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| leinir | dictionary based checks, that one is... 14 tokens for testing with a few hundred thousand possibilities each, i guess ;) | 17:45 |
| lcuk | i would like to have iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii or something | 17:46 |
| leinir | or ÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅÅ ;) | 17:47 |
| lcuk | thats low strength too | 17:47 |
| leinir | *nods* :) | 17:47 |
| leinir | th1s1sn07 ;) | 17:47 |
| leinir | l337 sp33k is useful for something, at least ;) | 17:48 |
| * lcuk finds the shortest strong password | 17:48 | |
| leinir | .cV1 | 17:48 |
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| lcuk | aA1!2" is high | 17:49 |
| lcuk | and less secure than my original one | 17:49 |
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| MrCoder | Hi guys, is the N900 going to support MeeGo? | 17:50 |
| GAN900 | original is dictionary vulnerable. | 17:50 |
| leinir | MrCoder: i take it you've actually looked before asking this? :) | 17:50 |
| GAN900 | MrCoder, depends entirely on how you define "MeeGo" | 17:50 |
| lcuk | GAN900, most dictionary crackers check 2 maybe 3 word combos | 17:50 |
| MrCoder | Been looking on forums for the past half hour, cant find a yes / no answer :/ | 17:51 |
| leinir | not 14 | 17:51 |
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| leinir | MrCoder: Well, check the meeting minutes from the last TSG meeting, it's in the topic :) | 17:51 |
| leinir | wait, no it's not... *frowns* Why it is not in the topic? | 17:52 |
| leinir | well, the blog post up there applies as well | 17:52 |
| leinir | "What is scheduled to be available then is the first and very raw baseline to a source and binary repository to build MeeGo trunk on Intel ATOM boards and Nokia N900." | 17:52 |
| jsa- | mrcoder: the answer is yes or don't know depending on what you mean by meego | 17:53 |
| * lcuk wonders where to write down a password so i dont forget it | 17:53 | |
| MrCoder | Thanks guys, I was starting to panic for a min, got my N900 2 days ago and stumbled along posts about support being dropped for it. | 17:54 |
| leinir | Yeah, that post has caused such a lot of stupid | 17:54 |
| MrCoder | Little confussed thou, there are diffrent types of Meego? | 17:55 |
| lcuk | haha i tried using the url for my onetime login as a password ( http://meego.com/user/reset/957/1269704401/a823527b0xxxxx988xxxxx42e39fdab4 ) and it says its medium :) | 17:55 |
| lcuk | (without the xxxxx blocks | 17:55 |
| leinir | It emits deadly rays of stupidness | 17:55 |
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| lcuk | \o/ yayyy finally found a password it agrees is high strength | 17:57 |
| * lcuk writes it on a postit | 17:57 | |
| MrCoder | qwerty? | 17:57 |
| qgil | "lcuk" | 17:57 |
| lcuk | :D | 17:57 |
| qgil | "changeme" | 17:57 |
| lcuk | its shorter and less personally memorable to me | 17:57 |
| MrCoder | jsa-: What do you mean "depending on what you mean by meego"? | 17:58 |
| lcuk | but its more secure *rolleyes* | 17:58 |
| * lcuk senses this game will occur frequently | 17:58 | |
| qgil | MrCoder: he means MeeGo as released by the MeeGo project (free software stack) or MeeGo as shipped by Nokia will all the proprietary whistles | 17:58 |
| qgil | (I guess) | 17:59 |
| MrCoder | As far as I was aware they is Maemo 5.0, MeeGo and something called Harmattan? | 17:59 |
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| qgil | MrCoder: you gut your device 2 days ago, enjoy! :) | 17:59 |
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| MrCoder | lol, good point :) | 18:00 |
| MrCoder | If only I could get GTK+2.0 upgraded to 2.8 I would be happy :/ | 18:00 |
| MrCoder | Sorry, 2.1.8 i think | 18:00 |
| MrCoder | Trying to build Mangler (Linux ventrilo client) and failing lol | 18:01 |
| qgil | ig GTK+ would reach 2.8 more people than you would be happy, probably :) | 18:01 |
| qgil | I guess you mean 2.18 | 18:02 |
| MrCoder | Yeah, I'm pretty noobish on Linux thou, I have managed to break X on 4 SDK images already somehow lol | 18:03 |
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| MrCoder | I cant seem to get my head around how you would go about upgrading the esbox / scrachbox GTK, I guess im in the wrong IRC channel thou :) | 18:05 |
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| CosmoHill | hey | 20:04 |
| thiago_home | hi CosmoHill | 20:05 |
| * CosmoHill is trying to find out what CD he wants for his birthday | 20:05 | |
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| RST38h | A Meego CD? | 20:06 |
| CosmoHill | that too | 20:06 |
| CosmoHill | I'm currently listening to "This is dubstep" | 20:08 |
| Shapeshifter | dubstep? | 20:08 |
| * Shapeshifter is listening to Dom and Roland - Soundwall | 20:09 | |
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| * CosmoHill goes for a listen | 20:10 | |
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| Shapeshifter | well it's not exactly dubstep ;) | 20:13 |
| Shapeshifter | but some kind of *step no doubt. | 20:13 |
| CosmoHill | sounds like drum and bass | 20:14 |
| CosmoHill | whatever it is, i like it so far | 20:14 |
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| CosmoHill | I'm assuming that if meego is going to support nvidia graphics cards that it was never going to use the open source nvidia driver? | 20:22 |
| ShadowJK | If you look at the meego website, you'll see that hw drivers are to be provided by device vendors | 20:24 |
| CosmoHill | so if HP sold a laptop with meego it's up to them to install the graphics card drivers before shipping? | 20:25 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 20:25 |
| CosmoHill | I see | 20:25 |
| CosmoHill | makes sense | 20:25 |
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| Shapeshifter | CosmoHill: my guess is that as a user, you can install both drivers anyway. it's just yet another linux | 20:34 |
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| CosmoHill | I can't remember if I've asked in here or not | 20:38 |
| CosmoHill | but does anyone have experience with clusters and / or virtual machines? | 20:39 |
| jrayhawk | You might want to state the nature of the problem you're trying to solve rather than the means by which you expect to solve it. | 20:40 |
| jrayhawk | Or both, I suppose. | 20:40 |
| Jaffa | qgil: Stskeeps: Mrs Jaffa noticed that it said we were married, but not to whom. | 20:41 |
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| Jaffa | qgil: Stskeeps: after 6 years (next week), you'd think she'd've noticed already ;-) | 20:41 |
| CosmoHill | erm, I'm gonna be building a cluster for part of my dissertation | 20:41 |
| CosmoHill | and maybe using VM machines too | 20:41 |
| CosmoHill | here's a more specific question: what can you do on a cluster that would look good to 16 year olds and demonstrates cluster computing to them? | 20:42 |
| jrayhawk | What kind of computation? | 20:42 |
| CosmoHill | basically something shiny to impress them | 20:42 |
| jrayhawk | Povray. | 20:42 |
| jrayhawk | pvm can run on pretty much any platform, povray can run on top of that. | 20:42 |
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| jrayhawk | Povray is also fun for 16 year olds to learn, and pretty much defines the concept of shiny :) | 20:44 |
| CosmoHill | awesome | 20:45 |
| CosmoHill | the problem I have atm is that the dissertation is far away (september) | 20:45 |
| CosmoHill | and different lecturers have different ideas for the cluster | 20:45 |
| jrayhawk | Most general-purpose clusters are a waste of time without extremely expensive fast and efficient semi-proprietary busses like Infiniband. | 20:49 |
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| qgil | Shapeshifter: man, this Dom and Roland is dark! | 20:49 |
| CosmoHill | jrayhawk: one lecturer wants it so that we can learn how to program for multiple cores / nodes | 20:50 |
| CosmoHill | one wants it so that the mutlimedia students can render their images faster | 20:51 |
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| th0br0 | CosmoHill: that's a complete cluster-waste | 20:51 |
| th0br0 | and good evening everyone. | 20:52 |
| CosmoHill | hey th0br0 | 20:53 |
| jrayhawk | Two separate problems, really. You can find non-symmetric multiprocessing in the form of NUMA on single systems, and multimedia-rendering is going to be application-specific (like pvmpov) anyway, so is best done more cloud-style. | 20:54 |
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| jrayhawk | http://mjg59.livejournal.com/69392.html always makes me laugh | 21:02 |
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| th0br0 | haha jrayhawk | 21:04 |
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| * CosmoHill wonders what it would be like to be a system admin | 21:35 | |
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| Shapeshifter | qgil: good stuff :) | 21:44 |
| thiago_home | blog? | 21:45 |
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| qgil | thiago_home: no, I guess drum & bass :) | 21:53 |
| qgil | btw, has someone got emails returned from @meego.com mailing lists? | 21:53 |
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| thiago_home | what do you mean? | 21:55 |
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| * Jaffa is receiving emails to the list; and hasn't got any bounces (AFAHCT) when posting | 22:00 | |
| thiago_home | nor I | 22:00 |
| qgil | thiago_home: Shapeshifter was saying before that he was listening http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqomBIWx83I - jump to 1:55 if you're impatient | 22:02 |
| qgil | texrat has shown me bounces and the funny thing is that the meego.com mail server IP is located in Dallas, (where he lives?) | 22:03 |
| qgil | Jaffa: did you have a chance to look at http://wiki.meego.com/Community_working_group ? | 22:04 |
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| Jaffa | qgil: Only very briefly. Mother-in-law and youngest child both ill :-( | 22:30 |
| CosmoHill | aww | 22:31 |
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| GAN900 | Jaffa, unfun. | 22:57 |
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| Jaffa | GAN900: Indeed. However, I've got a 6.8G VM image with Fremantle x86/armel, PR1.2, Diablo x86 and Nokia apps ready to test drive for jumpstart thingy in London on April 17. Texrat's updated his flyers with MeeGo stuff and A4 layout too | 23:49 |
| GAN900 | Jaffa, cool. | 23:50 |
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| * Jaffa beds. | 23:51 | |
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