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| aSIMULAtor | *yawn' | 13:29 |
|---|---|---|
| mikhas | heya, we could need feedback on our UX concept for miniature (chess): http://wiki.maemo.org/Image:20091219_001.jpg and http://wiki.maemo.org/Miniature/Development/Phase_1.0:_Offline_chess_basics#New_UX_proposal | 14:17 |
| mikhas | as of now, we decided to go 100% scene graphed UI, using Qt's QGraphicsProxyWidget for standard UI elements | 14:18 |
| lcuk | heh mikhas isnt the new ui layout a step back from the old one, you had something looking like a chess board last time i saw :D | 14:20 |
| mikhas | lcuk, yes ... you could probably say that. But we will delay theming until we have a solid interaction design | 14:22 |
| * lcuk nods heartily | 14:23 | |
| lcuk | mikhas, do you play the default chess on your n900? | 14:30 |
| mikhas | yeah, I do. | 14:30 |
| lcuk | did you ever have an n8x0? | 14:31 |
| mikhas | nope | 14:31 |
| mikhas | tbh, I found using gnuchess from the terminal more satisfying (more control!) than using the chess app =) | 14:31 |
| lcuk | whats right about the n900 chess then, which elements are you happy with and which would you drop/replace | 14:32 |
| lcuk | might be an idea to discuss along those lines because then people can relate with whats on their device now | 14:32 |
| lcuk | what was wrong with it then | 14:32 |
| mikhas | first, it uses comboboxen in the start screen for difficulty and colour picking | 14:33 |
| mikhas | next to checkboxen | 14:33 |
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| lcuk | but you do that once (if at all) usually, ive never actually ticked or clicked any! | 14:34 |
| mikhas | the "open" facility is hidden in the main menu while all other UI actions are put below the chess image (in the start screen). that way, most users are not aware that you can actually save/restore your games | 14:34 |
| lcuk | how are you considering save/restore games | 14:34 |
| mikhas | auto-save when application is closed, continue on next start. That is, we currently consider to always only have one "slot" for saving/restoring games | 14:36 |
| mikhas | we plan to interface with scid, a chess database engine | 14:37 |
| mikhas | so we dont want to duplicate features yet | 14:37 |
| lcuk | indeed, so now whilst the feature may be hidden (but in ui guideline correct locations) it currently allows for multiple save locations and sending to friends and stuff | 14:38 |
| lcuk | tho i doubt anyone does lol | 14:38 |
| mikhas | the back button of the chess app is inside the move lists | 14:39 |
| mikhas | so it looks as if you could undo a move, not go back to the main screen | 14:40 |
| mikhas | (you probably learn that quickly, but still ...) | 14:40 |
| mikhas | then, of course, the biggest annoyance to me is drag'n'drop for piece movement | 14:40 |
| lcuk | ahaaa the first great ui change :p :D | 14:41 |
| lcuk | and one i agree with, it will help teach people whats valid moves if it highlighted them when you tap the first time | 14:41 |
| mikhas | well, and I dont like the piece set too much. but that's theming only | 14:43 |
| lcuk | yeah | 14:44 |
| lcuk | will people be able to still play offline | 14:44 |
| mikhas | the next UI change is to integrate timers | 14:44 |
| mikhas | ? | 14:44 |
| lcuk | or will they need to start a different chess app to play alone | 14:44 |
| mikhas | well yes, our aim is of course to play chess on freechess.org but without an offline mode it would be useless, imho | 14:45 |
| aSIMULAtor | sorry i'm asking this, but, how big is each square on the board? | 14:46 |
| lcuk | 1/8 the width/height of the total board | 14:46 |
| mikhas | we maxed out at 60x60 pixels for the n900 | 14:46 |
| lcuk | did you include space for the labels mikhas | 14:46 |
| aSIMULAtor | portrait usage, squares look a tiny bit small for thumb usage, but then it's still usable | 14:47 |
| lcuk | like the default chess has | 14:47 |
| mikhas | no labels, they are useless to most chess players | 14:47 |
| lcuk | D$... you sank my battleship! | 14:47 |
| mikhas | lol | 14:47 |
| lcuk | d4 even | 14:47 |
| lcuk | labels help beginners | 14:47 |
| mikhas | well, perhaps we can offer an overlay for that? | 14:47 |
| lcuk | and people chatting | 14:47 |
| lcuk | supposing im playing with my son | 14:47 |
| mikhas | but I will not compromise the board size =) | 14:48 |
| lcuk | and hes just about to make a stupid move | 14:48 |
| lcuk | i can say, what about your knight at a6 | 14:48 |
| lcuk | mikhas, since the ui will be scalable, it does make sense to keep the option | 14:48 |
| lcuk | you may have to compromise if this qt game goes on lesser devices anyway | 14:49 |
| mikhas | well, for teaching mode we could have the cell names in the top left corner of each cell? | 14:49 |
| aSIMULAtor | that's sufficient | 14:49 |
| lcuk | you already have it scaleable | 14:49 |
| lcuk | what res is the n97? | 14:49 |
| lcuk | or windowed mode | 14:49 |
| lcuk | etcetc | 14:49 |
| lcuk | you wont always have 480pix | 14:49 |
| mikhas | =( | 14:50 |
| lcuk | that shouldnt matter tho? | 14:50 |
| lcuk | (w/8,h/8) bound within the largest based on aspect ratio | 14:50 |
| mikhas | not really. although the current UI is not scalable, the important pieces (heh!) are. | 14:50 |
| lcuk | you get your wish most of the time, but it adapts if not | 14:51 |
| mikhas | I have lots of 60ies in the current code *hangs head in shame* | 14:51 |
| mikhas | yes | 14:51 |
| lcuk | :D | 14:51 |
| * lcuk wraps knuckles | 14:51 | |
| lcuk | in qt you shouldnt have any fixed dimensions? | 14:52 |
| lcuk | make everything relative | 14:52 |
| mikhas | forgive my first steps in the designer | 14:52 |
| lcuk | EVERYTHING | 14:52 |
| mikhas | I used the qt designer and the only way to get some screen real estate was to give it min sizes | 14:52 |
| lcuk | heh | 14:52 |
| mikhas | because an empty QGV just gets 0x0 pixels =) | 14:52 |
| lcuk | i do similar for the calendar | 14:52 |
| lcuk | take available width, divide by 7 and say "meh" at the few pixels difference in some places | 14:53 |
| lcuk | mikhas, did you do this in the declarative ui? | 14:54 |
| lcuk | or just native qt | 14:54 |
| mikhas | native Qt, but most things are QGraphicsItems actually | 14:54 |
| mikhas | so no real layout management for anything inside the scene graph (haven't tried the QGraphicsLayouts yet) | 14:55 |
| lcuk | ok, so if you maintain your design thinking to be 800*480 (or 480*800) can you layout your entire layout within the available bounds | 14:55 |
| lcuk | supposing you had a qgi made to be 480*480 and then you tried to use it in a windowed windo | 14:56 |
| lcuk | with 800*414 (56pixels for top bar afaik) | 14:56 |
| lcuk | 424 even | 14:57 |
| * lcuk fails math, needs coffee and chocolate and bacon | 14:57 | |
| mikhas | hm, I ... have to propagate the rescale events properly | 14:57 |
| mikhas | well, it should all be possible I guess | 14:58 |
| mikhas | for animation speedup I rendered the piece's SVG into pixmaps, only have to make sure I re-render the SVG after rescaling ... | 14:59 |
| mikhas | would be great though if I could get automated layout management for the remaining UI elements outside the board though (still inside a QGV) | 15:00 |
| lcuk | yikes | 15:00 |
| mikhas | ? | 15:00 |
| lcuk | i forget how much work layout scaling actually is | 15:00 |
| lcuk | i just make stuff and let it be scaled | 15:00 |
| lcuk | i try to abstract from pixels - tho know designers work to them | 15:01 |
| mikhas | well, the facilities are there it seems | 15:01 |
| mikhas | I just havent learned about QGV layouts yet | 15:01 |
| * lcuk nods | 15:01 | |
| lcuk | i know theres examples for everything in qt | 15:01 |
| mikhas | lol | 15:01 |
| lcuk | what did you code in before qt? | 15:02 |
| mikhas | nothing really | 15:02 |
| lcuk | were you into lego/mechano as a kid? | 15:03 |
| lcuk | (physical programming!) | 15:03 |
| mikhas | yes | 15:03 |
| * lcuk rifles through his lego box looking for a 2x4 brick | 15:04 | |
| lcuk | aSIMULAtor, hows the weather over there | 15:07 |
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| aSIMULAtor | it's quite snowy | 18:23 |
| aSIMULAtor | and cold :P | 18:23 |
| aSIMULAtor | it's -10 | 18:23 |
| aSIMULAtor | i mean it's REALLY snowy | 18:23 |
| lcuk | aSIMULAtor, we have a bit of snow here | 18:24 |
| lcuk | but its put off everyone from moving | 18:24 |
| lcuk | swap you snow photos, you got any recent ones? my cat is an outsider and even he ground to a halt at the door this morning | 18:25 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/snowcat.jpg | 18:25 |
| aSIMULAtor | yeah i guess all of the eastern US and pretty much most of central europe are snowed in :P | 18:25 |
| lcuk | he was not happy | 18:25 |
| aSIMULAtor | hehe cute cat | 18:25 |
| aSIMULAtor | http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs002.snc3/10938_213191317116_578932116_3694072_5738804_n.jpg | 18:26 |
| aSIMULAtor | i took that a few days ago | 18:26 |
| lcuk | the kitten had his first experience with it | 18:26 |
| aSIMULAtor | that's the most recent one | 18:26 |
| lcuk | can i see moomins in the distance? | 18:27 |
| aSIMULAtor | yeah mamma moomin :P | 18:28 |
| aSIMULAtor | well, at least this christmas will be white | 18:30 |
| aSIMULAtor | not that it really matters to me, doesn't feel like christmas | 18:30 |
| lcuk | what would make it christmas for you? | 18:31 |
| lcuk | for tracy, it was seeing the coca cola train advert on tv ( (8) holidays are coming ... (8) ) | 18:31 |
| lcuk | for me, it happened when jacob saw santa | 18:31 |
| aSIMULAtor | i think it'd feel more like christmas if i went home to california | 18:32 |
| aSIMULAtor | to be with my family, in the sun :P | 18:33 |
| lcuk | and yesterday, my mum sent jacob this, its fantastically amazingly well done and he answered everything and sat transfixed for about an hour playing it over and over http://portablenorthpole.tv/watch/8bd06a614c2d3ec99a0aaaf8d7ca667e | 18:33 |
| lcuk | bah! sunshine | 18:33 |
| frals | snow = xmas <3 | 18:33 |
| aSIMULAtor | the past 2 years in southern finland..there hasn't been any snow | 18:35 |
| aSIMULAtor | so it was dark and cold and bah | 18:35 |
| aSIMULAtor | and i'd like to eat my mom's cooking you know hehe | 18:35 |
| lcuk | well now its dark and cold and snowy and bah | 18:35 |
| lcuk | when do you goon your real holiday then? early jan i recall | 18:37 |
| * lcuk must learn to type one day | 18:37 | |
| aSIMULAtor | omg | 18:37 |
| aSIMULAtor | my sister called me on gtalk just now | 18:37 |
| aSIMULAtor | her husband was on the phone | 18:37 |
| aSIMULAtor | said "the n900 is so good..i'm buying one myself right now" | 18:37 |
| aSIMULAtor | he bought one for my sister yesterday | 18:38 |
| lcuk | indeed | 18:38 |
| lcuk | entire family wants, i have to keep mine close now | 18:38 |
| lcuk | i get back and they go missing | 18:38 |
| aSIMULAtor | yeah but this means...i must do tech support :P | 18:40 |
| GAN900 | My family has iPhones. . . . | 18:40 |
| aSIMULAtor | she had an iphone...her husband had an e90 | 18:41 |
| aSIMULAtor | and a blackberry for work | 18:41 |
| aSIMULAtor | she told me my 3 year old niece knows how to navigate by pressing the task launcher button to more, to open up sketch app | 18:42 |
| lcuk | aSIMULAtor, thats normal lol | 18:45 |
| lcuk | but once they get out of sketching phase, they start to head into sms and texting all their mates | 18:45 |
| lcuk | and planning kids parties via parents phones | 18:46 |
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| aSIMULAtor | what in the world..my sister just said she charges the phone after 5 hrs of usage just from using the phone | 19:16 |
| aSIMULAtor | just cellular calls | 19:16 |
| aSIMULAtor | she must talk A LOT | 19:16 |
| lcuk | you women DO talk more | 19:16 |
| lcuk | sending over more bits == more battery drain | 19:16 |
| aSIMULAtor | i hardly use my phone lol | 19:17 |
| lcuk | im surprised they dont make girly phones with little white flags inside that they wave after gossiping for a while | 19:17 |
| aSIMULAtor | i'm still on the phone with her though and it's well over 42 minutes | 19:17 |
| lcuk | see | 19:17 |
| aSIMULAtor | and all she's doing is sort of there...idling...not really talking | 19:17 |
| lcuk | men folk manage condensed conversation | 19:17 |
| lcuk | "hi, pub, 7pm, cya" | 19:17 |
| aSIMULAtor | i have a feeling this is going to be common now..her calling me via skype or gtalk...long conversations of nothing | 19:18 |
| aSIMULAtor | cause it's basically free | 19:18 |
| lcuk | indeed | 19:18 |
| lcuk | silence | 19:18 |
| aSIMULAtor | i prefer txting | 19:18 |
| aSIMULAtor | or irc :P | 19:18 |
| * lcuk prefers both | 19:19 | |
| lcuk | i really want to expand on conversations ui | 19:19 |
| aSIMULAtor | remember what JosefAssad had talked about | 19:19 |
| lcuk | i think some of the improvements ive been putting into the liqtactoe irc client would work well in the default app | 19:19 |
| aSIMULAtor | in regards to the scroll indicator staying | 19:19 |
| lcuk | yeah | 19:19 |
| aSIMULAtor | i witnessed yesterday someone who had an n900, didn't know you can change your ringtones because he didn't know there were more options in the dialog when you scroll down further | 19:20 |
| aSIMULAtor | and it just solidified my stance on having to have indication there all the time | 19:20 |
| aSIMULAtor | this is too common | 19:20 |
| lcuk | your fighting stance? | 19:20 |
| lcuk | ala twitter pic | 19:20 |
| aSIMULAtor | hehe | 19:20 |
| aSIMULAtor | having to have..wtf..my english is going down the shitter | 19:21 |
| lcuk | indeed | 19:21 |
| GAN900 | It shouldn't stay all of the time | 19:37 |
| GAN900 | Just show for a while when a dialog is opened | 19:37 |
| lcuk | GAN900, mm ? | 19:38 |
| aSIMULAtor | it shows for a little while but maybe a tiny bit longer | 19:39 |
| GAN900 | 2-3 seconds or so. | 19:39 |
| GAN900 | iPhone shows the indicator for less than a second. | 19:41 |
| mikhas | the problem is that the 1s countdown starts even before the dialog in question is shown | 19:43 |
| mikhas | so you have this 250-500ms delay for bigger lists sometimes | 19:43 |
| lcuk | forget the countdown | 19:43 |
| mikhas | and that's where you dont see the scroll hints then | 19:43 |
| lcuk | looking away and looking back means you dont know anything | 19:43 |
| lcuk | there is no way of knowing the ui indicator has caught the users eye | 19:44 |
| lcuk | its like the other notifications | 19:44 |
| lcuk | i get something pop onto the screen thats too easily dismissable | 19:45 |
| lcuk | and i wonder what it was | 19:45 |
| GAN900 | Meh | 19:45 |
| mikhas | because you "read" from left to right, once you've reached the right you only got >200ms left to see it (I was told that it takes a human brain 300ms to recognize *one* UI element, but at least the human brain can parallize that) | 19:45 |
| lcuk | (the fix there isnt to make them hard to dismiss, its to give a place to list historical ones ;)) | 19:45 |
| mikhas | I would go with fixing the countdown first, to start when the dialog is actually visible to the user, fully visible. | 19:46 |
| GAN900 | I like how the Hildon Note for h-a-m's installtion complete disables text input when it pops up in the background. | 19:46 |
| lcuk | has a bug been filed against that | 19:46 |
| GAN900 | I just wish scrolling with the arrow keys/spacebar didn't make the browser's fullscreen button appear. | 19:46 |
| lcuk | cos i doubt anyone will do anything about it if now | 19:47 |
| lcuk | not | 19:47 |
| GAN900 | Not yet | 19:47 |
| GAN900 | But I've hardly been on a real computer lately. | 19:47 |
| lcuk | so? the browser on n900 stopped working for you? | 19:48 |
| GAN900 | Keyboard sucks, I've had more immediate and productive directions to put my time towards lately. | 19:49 |
| GAN900 | It's not like a week or two is going to make a difference when it takes Nokia 18 months to fix bugs. :) | 19:49 |
| aSIMULAtor | physical or on screen kb? | 19:53 |
| * lcuk shrugs | 19:53 | |
| GAN900 | Both | 19:53 |
| GAN900 | Onscreen because Nokia usually adds enough bugs to replace all of the ones they fixed version-to-version | 19:54 |
| GAN900 | and hardware because it's not a 9lbs Model M buckling spring with a Dvorak layout. ;) | 19:54 |
| lcuk | you seem to write just fine with it here | 19:54 |
| GAN900 | Doesn't mean that I enjoy it | 19:55 |
| GAN900 | or feel like typing out a bug report | 19:55 |
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| Milhouse | aSIMULATor/GAN900: re scroll bar, I actually like it the way it is BUT that's because I understand how it works.... the difficulty for new users is they don't often notice it so don't look for it when tapping or when a dialog opens. I'm wondering if an option should be added, "Keep scrollbar visible at all times" by default and then prompt the user ONCE to turn off this behaviour when 4 or 5 dialogs have been opened | 20:51 |
| Milhouse | And when I say prompt, one of the "golden" notification balloons might do the trick - kind of like a "tip" | 20:52 |
| Milhouse | But I know Nokia hate options, so not gonna happen. ;-) | 20:52 |
| aSIMULAtor | doesn't hurt to try and suggest | 20:53 |
| Milhouse | True, but it's rarely worked in the past. | 20:54 |
| Milhouse | And yet there are wierd options elsewhere, that probably shouldn't be... so who knows. | 20:54 |
| Milhouse | (I'm thinking here of the "Powersaving" option in the Display settings - anyone know what it does, where it's documented? It's a meaningless option) | 20:55 |
| lcuk | hahaha power saving mode isnt meaningless | 20:56 |
| lcuk | it actually highlights the point about scrollbars | 20:56 |
| lcuk | cos i didnt even know it was there until just now | 20:57 |
| Milhouse | Well, I'm sure it does something - but what? How does it save power? It's not documented, it's just an option that needs more explanation. | 20:57 |
| Milhouse | Or would be more understandable if it had a better "name" - "Power saving mode" doesn't tell me much | 20:59 |
| Milhouse | In fact I've turned it off and I swear my battery is lasting _longer_ | 20:59 |
| Milhouse | lcuk: lol - indeed. | 21:00 |
| Milhouse | in actual fact, as a right handed user I would prefer it if the thin scrollbars were on the left as they're obscured by my finger/hand most of the time | 21:00 |
| GAN900 | Milhouse, see my bug on it. | 21:01 |
| Milhouse | #? | 21:02 |
| GAN900 | Don't recall offhand | 21:02 |
| GAN900 | one sexc | 21:02 |
| Milhouse | i might even vote on it :) | 21:02 |
| GAN900 | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6812 | 21:04 |
| povbot | Bug 6812: Remove "Power saving mode" setting from Touchscreen settings | 21:04 |
| GAN900 | hullo, povbot | 21:04 |
| Milhouse | ah, already commented on that bug! | 21:04 |
| Milhouse | i'm not in favour of getting rid of it as such, i just don't understand what the hell it does | 21:05 |
| GAN900 | It modifies the brightness curves for ambient light. | 21:05 |
| Milhouse | so "Save power when in bright light"? is that what it does? | 21:05 |
| Milhouse | Or "Dim backlight when in bright light" | 21:05 |
| GAN900 | So for a given backlight setting and a given ambient level the actual backlight level will be lower. | 21:05 |
| Milhouse | both of which would be more fecking meaningful than "Power saving mode" | 21:06 |
| GAN900 | No, make the backlight lower at all times and levels | 21:06 |
| GAN900 | except level 5 | 21:06 |
| Milhouse | hmmm - seems a bit odd | 21:06 |
| GAN900 | Level 5 is just as bright as always. | 21:06 |
| Milhouse | my display has always been at 4 and i've now turned this option off, and haven't noticed any difference whatsoever (although battery _may_ be lasting longer) | 21:07 |
| GAN900 | So, yes, it's a useless option | 21:07 |
| Milhouse | seems so | 21:07 |
| Milhouse | or just badly implemented? | 21:07 |
| Milhouse | (and named) | 21:08 |
| GAN900 | It's useless | 21:08 |
| Milhouse | You don't like it, do you? | 21:08 |
| GAN900 | what's worse is that you have to scroll to find it | 21:08 |
| GAN900 | No. :D | 21:08 |
| Milhouse | :) | 21:08 |
| GAN900 | I'm also distracted by people here. :D | 21:08 |
| Milhouse | Has anyone suggested scrollbars on the left for righties? | 21:08 |
| GAN900 | Why? Pannable area makes that pretty pointless | 21:09 |
| Milhouse | Is it only me that thinks that might not be a good solution - my vision is fixated on the left of the screen in most dialogs (the confirm/save buttons take up most of the right side of the screen) and my hand often blocks the scrollbar | 21:09 |
| lcuk | most of my left/right scrollbar stuff is eased now we have kinetics | 21:09 |
| Milhouse | no, i'm thinking mainly of dialogs | 21:09 |
| lcuk | if the scrollbars had absolute indexing modes i would say something | 21:09 |
| mikhas | I think the scroll hint should neither be on the left or right | 21:10 |
| mikhas | but in line with the scroll direction, so top/bottom usually | 21:10 |
| Milhouse | eh? | 21:11 |
| mikhas | it is not a scrollbar | 21:11 |
| mikhas | just a scroll hint | 21:11 |
| mikhas | so it should say: "look the dialog continues *here*" | 21:11 |
| Milhouse | ah, i see | 21:11 |
| Milhouse | nokia have poo-pooed that idea | 21:12 |
| Milhouse | somewhat snarkily, i thought | 21:12 |
| * lcuk senses this discussion has occured before | 21:12 | |
| lcuk | cos in my view, if you are adding indicator ui, the user will want to click it | 21:12 |
| Milhouse | looking for the bug which relates to scrollbar visibility... | 21:13 |
| lcuk | ie arrows | 21:13 |
| mikhas | yes, if arrows were your indicator of choice they would behave like page up/page down | 21:13 |
| mikhas | to me, it all makes sense =) but I am no UI designer | 21:14 |
| lcuk | i have page prev/next buttons in the presentation app i have | 21:14 |
| mikhas | yeah | 21:14 |
| lcuk | i prefer it to swipes and want to make a book reader using them | 21:14 |
| lcuk | but also keep kinetics for when i want them | 21:14 |
| mikhas | swipes are cool as well, I just dont see why you need to kill page up/down for that | 21:14 |
| mikhas | yes | 21:15 |
| lcuk | well, 2 different kinds of swipes | 21:16 |
| Milhouse | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5496#c8 <--- niiiice | 21:16 |
| povbot | Bug 5496: HildonTouchSelector: No hint that there are more items | 21:16 |
| lcuk | side swipes ala desktop with limited rotation | 21:16 |
| lcuk | or having to swipe through 400 pages of a book | 21:16 |
| lcuk | or just having text kinetics | 21:16 |
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| GAN900 | lol, Milhouse | 21:48 |
| GAN900 | I've been getting some snarky replies on my bugs too | 21:48 |
| Milhouse | I resisted the temptation to reply to that particular comment, and someone beat me to it anyway :) | 22:01 |
| *** tKMFDM has joined #maemo-ui | 23:12 | |
| *** KMFDM has quit IRC | 23:29 | |
| GAN900 | Milhouse, the replies aren't much more helpful. :( | 23:31 |
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