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| Anidel | hi | 02:19 |
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| VDVsx | logs here: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-ui-irclog/ someone with ch op please add it to the topic :) | 03:17 |
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| aSIMULAter | morning | 09:32 |
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| aSIMULAter | mr gimpl | 10:04 |
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| JosefAss1d | moin | 10:08 |
| aSIMULAter | morning | 10:09 |
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| JosefAssad | a friend/colleague and I picked up a pair of N900s, and while out beer/maemo nerding last evening he mentioned a UI idea which - despite being trivial - seemed very logical to me | 10:25 |
| JosefAssad | I'd like to get more opinions before filing a b.m.o ticket though | 10:25 |
| JosefAssad | simply, in scrollable lists (pannable areas? what is the correct term?) the thin scrollbar only appears when actually scrolling and fades out when stationary. It's actually a useful visual indicator that the list is longer than what is displayed on-screen | 10:26 |
| JosefAssad | you don't get that indicator before you already know it's a longer list and start scrolling though | 10:26 |
| JosefAssad | So the idea was (probably trivial) to make it persistently visible. | 10:27 |
| JosefAssad | does that make sense? | 10:27 |
| aSIMULAter | yeah it makes sense | 10:31 |
| aSIMULAter | then people will try to scroll with that particular indicator | 10:31 |
| aSIMULAter | and it's actually shown initially before you start scrolling | 10:31 |
| aSIMULAter | so for example, go into the browser application | 10:31 |
| aSIMULAter | then see the scroll indicator on the right hand side | 10:31 |
| aSIMULAter | it's shown for a few then fades out | 10:31 |
| aSIMULAter | what i mean about the phrase "then people will try to scroll with that particular indicator" is that people might mistake that if you press it then you'll be able to scroll using it, but this isn't the case | 10:34 |
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| lcuk | aSIMULAter, liqbase shows the indicator all the time and if you hold in the right hand 20% it uses normal scrollbar stuff | 10:39 |
| lcuk | ie, he can see if the idea is practical :) | 10:39 |
| lcuk | JosefAssad, ^ | 10:39 |
| aSIMULAter | have you done user testing with this indication out of curiosity? | 10:43 |
| aSIMULAter | as in, gotten user statistics and feedback | 10:44 |
| lcuk | its just there and no1 has complained :) | 10:44 |
| lcuk | its intuitive and does as expected | 10:45 |
| aSIMULAter | i agree that it can be useful to show it all the time, but, there is a reason why this decision was made and it was partly due to people in user testing mistaking the indicator as a scrollbar | 10:46 |
| KMFDM | yeah that makes sense and I wish there was an actual scrollbar available | 10:46 |
| KMFDM | my contact list for instance is huge and attempting to scroll it takes ages | 10:47 |
| KMFDM | on larger lists i miss an actual scroll bar | 10:47 |
| aSIMULAter | quick search? | 10:47 |
| aSIMULAter | start typing and then find your contact like that? :P | 10:47 |
| MartinG | the panning indicator fade-out reduces visual clutter on screen | 10:47 |
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| lcuk | of course MartinG, but glance away for a second and you lose one vital thing: relative positioning | 10:48 |
| KMFDM | aSIMULAter, quick search is nice, but not handy to use when im working with 1 hand | 10:48 |
| KMFDM | and if my scrolling my list it is usually b/c im working with 1 hand to call someone | 10:48 |
| lcuk | its important as a visual indicator sometimes in dooks and documents | 10:48 |
| MartinG | yeah, it's pros and cons | 10:48 |
| lcuk | to know you are coming near the end | 10:48 |
| lcuk | mines translucent | 10:48 |
| MartinG | reduced visibilty for the sake of less clutter | 10:48 |
| lcuk | so content shows though, its just an indicator afterall | 10:48 |
| aSIMULAter | if you're using your contacts with one hand and the orientation is in portrait mode, then tehre's the quick search a-z to the right, no? | 10:48 |
| KMFDM | dont know i never click on phone first | 10:48 |
| KMFDM | so i wasnt in portrait mode | 10:49 |
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| KMFDM | i suppose if i had a phone link on my desktop it would solve that | 10:49 |
| lcuk | hey thp \o | 10:49 |
| MartinG | it's really a matter of values, in this particular case it was considered more important to have as clean of an ui as possible | 10:49 |
| aSIMULAter | agreed | 10:49 |
| lcuk | aSIMULAter, incase you dont know, thp is the guy who sat next to me when we went for steak | 10:49 |
| aSIMULAter | but, maybe if enough people shout loud enough, possiblity to get the indicator to stay there | 10:49 |
| aSIMULAter | oh hi thp | 10:50 |
| aSIMULAter | thomas right? | 10:50 |
| KMFDM | lol another thomas? | 10:50 |
| aSIMULAter | gpodder | 10:50 |
| thp | yes, hi everyone | 10:50 |
| aSIMULAter | yeah another one of you kmfdm :P | 10:50 |
| lcuk | MartinG, i agree, it should be a setting on the theme perhaps | 10:50 |
| aSIMULAter | yes lcuk | 10:50 |
| aSIMULAter | the ability to turn it on or off in settings | 10:50 |
| lcuk | people who like nice clean simple ui have it configured to fade | 10:50 |
| lcuk | yeah | 10:50 |
| MartinG | lcuk: not a fan of settings myself, but that's an option of course | 10:50 |
| lcuk | what about the direct addressing | 10:51 |
| MartinG | a good example is the more-menu in task launcher | 10:51 |
| MartinG | the indicator really disturbs the whole view when visible | 10:51 |
| lcuk | is it useful to be able to quickly navigate a list by tapping somewhere | 10:51 |
| lcuk | MartinG, ahhh well thats a different thing alltogether :D | 10:51 |
| aSIMULAter | josef: possibly file a bug about this? might be good if so | 10:51 |
| lcuk | i agree it looks out of place in that sort of context | 10:51 |
| MartinG | lcuk: not really, consistency should be retained whenever possible; we want lists to behave similarly in all cases | 10:52 |
| lcuk | i just wouldnt have apps all in one list tho :) | 10:52 |
| MartinG | sadly we couldn't get the rubberband bounce in all lists :( | 10:52 |
| MartinG | lcuk: well, that's another topic altogether :) | 10:52 |
| * lcuk nods | 10:53 | |
| MartinG | lcuk: browser is another good example of why the fade makes sense, since the bars are actualyl on top of content in that case | 10:54 |
| MartinG | lcuk: I believe that was the original plan for lists as well, but we ended up allocating a separate space for the indicator for technical reasons | 10:55 |
| aSIMULAter | lcuk: check mail | 10:56 |
| aSIMULAter | ho hum can't change the topic until i get home :( | 10:58 |
| JosefAssad | lcuk: sorry, had to run off for meeting. Scolling up and reading... | 11:01 |
| JosefAssad | lcuk: also, you should know that it is only with the utmost self-control that I have managed to not install liqbase yet. If I do, I'll spend the whole rest of the working week playign with it... *sigh* :) | 11:02 |
| JosefAssad | aSIMULAter: Ah, I see how it could be mistaken for a scrollbar... let me mull that over. | 11:03 |
| lcuk | JosefAssad, plenty of time, its very incomplete in many places | 11:04 |
| JosefAssad | lcuk: ambition outstripping available development time? | 11:10 |
| lcuk | JosefAssad, not in the slightest, just hard work pulling all the code ive got in my head together and so i have to make important compromises and decisions. they will all be reevaluated and polished up and stabilised in time :) | 11:17 |
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| JosefAssad | MartinG: I see the logic behind fading the "scrollability" indicator. If I'm not the only nutcase who thinks that there's still a need for some indication that an area can be scrolled whiel preserving the logical reason for fading the scroll indicator in the first place, maybe this is a good example of something to put on brainstorm? | 14:09 |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: we know for example that with some dialogs, users missed the fact that the list was pannable | 14:10 |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: it has also to do with the fact that lists generally fit into the pannable area in such a manner that no half/quarter-items are shown | 14:12 |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: it's a usability problem but I do believe that the visual simplicity makes up for it, users are expected to learn this stuff just like with dismissing dialogs | 14:12 |
| JosefAssad | MartinG: both factors which suggest a need to make it clear "Hey user, scroll me!" | 14:13 |
| JosefAssad | MartinG: Without going back to non-fading scrollbarish indicator. I see the sense in that. | 14:13 |
| MartinG | it's certainly worth thinking about | 14:14 |
| JosefAssad | MartinG: Hm. Just for the sake of discussion; I'm not a UX/UI expert by any wild stretch of the imagination, but my best guess is, dismissing a dialog box is a lot more obvious than this scroll thingie | 14:14 |
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| * JosefAssad wonders if a list gets rendered THEN populated, or gets rendered fully populated... | 14:15 | |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: well it's hard to say, in user tests that was not the case; the problem with panning indicators was that people tried to touch them and use them for scrolling | 14:16 |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: that's a mental model problem though mainly | 14:16 |
| JosefAssad | if it's the latter, then when rendering the list the list could make a minute jump down to suggest there's more content and then reset to whatever is selected. As small as a quarter of a second... | 14:16 |
| JosefAssad | MartinG: ooooh. Hm. | 14:17 |
| JosefAssad | MartinG: I always defer to empirical data, of course | 14:17 |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: well, no data is 100% reliable | 14:18 |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: whenever humans are involved that is ;) | 14:18 |
| JosefAssad | or some form of transparent (to the touch as well as visually) at the bottom pointing down to show there's more | 14:18 |
| JosefAssad | hey. That could be an interesting UI capability. Transparent overlays that not only are visually transparent but where the touch also goes through to the control below it | 14:19 |
| JosefAssad | I really shoulf get back to work... :) | 14:19 |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: well, the app menu for example had a problem of similar sorts; it was hard for people to discover it. so we added an indicator, but even that was argued over since it yet again added more visual clutter | 14:19 |
| MartinG | JosefAssad: pros and cons, like I said earlier | 14:19 |
| JosefAssad | true | 14:20 |
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| VRe | I was reading the scrollarea notification from a log. Don't know how far it has progressed since the last message in the log. It was some issue we were discussion at work. Basically it boiled to, it should be themeable, people can choose. There should be indicato that the area can be panned or scrolled, and if people try to use the indicator for scrolling, maybe they should be let to do it then. If they hit close enough to the bar, blow it larger and let the scroll | 14:45 |
| JosefAssad | VRe: I see the sense in that, but I also like the "less is more" spirit that the scoll-indicator thingie has right now | 14:51 |
| JosefAssad | VRe: agree that an indicator is a good idea. Not sure it has to be the scoll-indicator thingie though. | 14:52 |
| JosefAssad | Let's port clippy to maemo. Clippy can have a speech bubble pop up with a long speech about how this control can in fact be scrolled! | 14:53 |
| VRe | JosefAssad: Any indicator would do, a bar though is quite intuitive and familiar | 14:55 |
| VRe | I have to say that I like, that it does not take much space either. | 14:56 |
| VRe | Minimalism as screen estate does not necessary mean that also functionality should be minimum :) | 14:57 |
| JosefAssad | VRe: well, one idea off top of my head was this: | 14:57 |
| JosefAssad | <JosefAssad> or some form of transparent (to the touch as well as visually) at the bottom pointing down to show there's more | 14:57 |
| JosefAssad | also this: | 14:58 |
| VRe | Arrow or something | 14:58 |
| lcuk | people will push that expecting it to be a button | 14:58 |
| JosefAssad | * JosefAssad wonders if a list gets rendered THEN populated, or gets rendered fully populated... <snip> < JosefAssad> if it's the latter, then when rendering the list the list could make a minute jump down to suggest there's more content and then reset to whatever is selected. As small as a quarter of a second... | 14:58 |
| VRe | In some ui's the edge is made fuzzy to show that it continues | 14:58 |
| JosefAssad | lcuk: there's a good chance of that happening, yes. | 14:58 |
| JosefAssad | lcuk: just trying to think of how to say "scroll me!" without sliding back into scrollbar mentality | 14:59 |
| VRe | lcuk: Still, is it wrong that it would go down? | 14:59 |
| lcuk | the fading element already exists, the user is presented with a ui position indicator already | 14:59 |
| lcuk | simplest solutions are always the best :) | 14:59 |
| VRe | Yes, simplest is to give what the user wants | 14:59 |
| * JosefAssad confiscates lcuk's apple decoder ring | 14:59 | |
| lcuk | some people like indicators | 14:59 |
| lcuk | others dont | 14:59 |
| JosefAssad | doesn't have to be an extra element. Could be a behavior/animation. A minute jerk downwards when the scrollable control renders | 15:00 |
| VRe | As I see, if people press something to go down. It does not say that the element is now wrong. It tells that people want to use it to go down, so it should enable them to do it. | 15:01 |
| lcuk | but that just distracts and jars visually the timed indicator is there | 15:01 |
| JosefAssad | I really like not having scroll bars, you see. Scroll bars end up tempting people into stylusing all the time. I like stylus for some things, but finger friendliness is also good | 15:01 |
| VRe | JosefAssad: It does not need to be full scroll bar, the bar can for example pop up in large size for finger friendly scroll. Or the edge can work as scroller without scaling too. | 15:02 |
| lcuk | nothing so drastic (changing the generic behaviour like that would be v tough), just a way for the user to choose to see it all the time | 15:03 |
| lcuk | the ui element exists | 15:03 |
| lcuk | it doesnt stop existing, its just hidden for cosmetic purposes | 15:04 |
| VRe | For one, I could kill to get a finger friendly scroll action in many parts on N900, for example in 2nd class of application, in modest with my 250 folders, in app manager.. indicator or scroller.. depends on the length | 15:06 |
| VRe | /application/applications (the extras stuff)/ | 15:06 |
| VRe | scroll maybe wrong word, jump to point of choosing would be better | 15:09 |
| VRe | lcuk: with fading I was meaning that elements near the upper and lower edges are faded. Not the scrolled dimming. | 15:10 |
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| thp | does anyone have suggestions for icon metaphors for automatic, portrait-only and landscape-only rotation modes? | 16:35 |
| thp | (bonus points if you can provide me with icon files ;) | 16:35 |
| aSIMULAtor | hehe | 16:36 |
| aSIMULAtor | automatic i would suggest hte metaphor of the arrow which is round in shape | 16:37 |
| aSIMULAtor | circular in shape, rather | 16:37 |
| aSIMULAtor | kind of like recycle | 16:37 |
| aSIMULAtor | let me find | 16:37 |
| aSIMULAtor | http://eu.toto.com/site/TOTO/UploadedResources/toto_technology_icon_large_automatic.gif | 16:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | thp, remember the Palm rotation icon? | 16:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd say something like that, but gray out the mode that's turned off | 16:39 |
| thp | never had a palm device (too young? ;) | 16:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | and include arrows or something for automatic. | 16:39 |
| aSIMULAtor | for portrait i would simply use a doc that looks portrait then landscape same thing... | 16:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | thp, you're not much younger than me, surely? :P | 16:39 |
| aSIMULAtor | i can help tomorrow possibly | 16:39 |
| thp | that'd be nice | 16:39 |
| aSIMULAtor | what size | 16:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | thp, http://gallery.techarena.in/data/519/Palm_T_X.jpg second from right on the bottom toolbar onscreen. | 16:40 |
| thp | aSIMULAtor: so that it fits into a HildonButton with finger size (dont know the pixel size right now) | 16:41 |
| aSIMULAtor | 48x48 | 16:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | thp, sorry we didn't talk at BCN, by the way. ;) | 16:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | I spotted you across the room a couple of times but couldn't be bothered to make my way over. | 16:42 |
| aSIMULAtor | but now, maemo party time...talk to you guys later | 16:42 |
| aSIMULAtor | http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/newsbeat/newsid_7961000/7961224.stm but here's something funny for everyone to read :P | 16:43 |
| thp | GeneralAntilles: yeah, too little time in bcn - i know that :) | 16:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | thp, and tiny little nametags, too. :D | 16:44 |
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| thp | true.. very tiny ones | 16:57 |
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| JosefAssad | icon for rotating... can it be animated? :) | 18:03 |
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| JosefAssad | maybe something like this for rotating: http://www.sancairodicopenhagen.com/rotate.png | 18:15 |
| JosefAssad | now the inkscape people hate me for making sometihng that utilitarian... | 18:15 |
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| tigert | thp: or just leave out the icons :) | 20:29 |
| JosefAssad | oh, the thing I did has the same idea as palm... | 20:43 |
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| wazd | hello all | 21:54 |
| VDVsx | hey wazd :p | 21:56 |
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| thp | tigert: hey :) | 22:32 |
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| thp | i want to have radio buttons (three of them) in the appmenu, don't know if it will fit the available space when text is used [in english, that'd be "Automatic", "Landscape" and "Portrait"] | 22:33 |
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| wazd | thp: use them in a coloumn | 22:36 |
| tigert | thp: ah | 22:46 |
| tigert | thp: you mean for the rotation settings? | 22:46 |
| tigert | thp: you use that setting a lot? as I usually set it to something and keep it that way, thus I would perhaps go with a button that shows the current option and a selector dialog when you press it..? | 22:47 |
| tigert | thp: and hi :) | 22:48 |
| mikhas | selector dialog sounds reasonable | 22:48 |
| tigert | I think this is how it currently is | 22:48 |
| aSIMULAtor | tigert: u didn't go to the party? | 23:24 |
| tigert | nah | 23:25 |
| tigert | forgot about it until today | 23:25 |
| aSIMULAtor | please no radio buttons :/ :P | 23:41 |
| aSIMULAtor | yz on selector dialog. | 23:41 |
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