IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Wednesday, 2013-10-30

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freemangordonFatPhil: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/linux.kernel/unMdjD_fnZM09:01
freemangordonFatPhil: /me needs an advice on how to continue from there09:01
freemangordonI think I should insist on reverting the patch that broke, it, but don;t know how to ask for that - sending a new patch or telling Tomi to do it09:02
freemangordontelling/asking09:02
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DocScrutinizer05moin Pali10:40
Palihi10:42
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sunweaverHi. Is this the place of the Fremantle Porting Task Force?15:35
sunweaverI am a Debian Developer and would like to bring the Hildon desktop to Debian. I wonder what approach I should use.15:35
sunweaver... as the upstream situation is unclear.15:35
sunweaverAnd of course, packaging software for Debian means that the software has to compile against libs and stuff currently in Debian unstable.15:36
sunweaverany hints will be appreciated...15:36
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DocScrutinizer05well, *basically* fremantle _is_ a debian already15:50
DocScrutinizer05with quite a number of customizations like hildon-desktop, hildon-home, and several other middleware15:51
DocScrutinizer05so "bringin hildon to debian" is a bit... fuzzy15:52
DocScrutinizer05it's rather like "bring most recent debian (and kernel) to fremantle-debian"15:52
DocScrutinizer05to give you an idea:15:54
DocScrutinizer05~closed15:54
infobotsomebody said closed was http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages or https://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages15:54
DocScrutinizer05~fptf15:54
infobothmm... fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=9130815:54
DocScrutinizer05"bringing HD to debian" wouldn't mean any of the debian apps would run under hildon out of the box, since they use specific HD functions15:56
DocScrutinizer05or they *don't*, rather15:56
DocScrutinizer05HD is a desktop manager, kinda similar to KDE or gnome15:58
DocScrutinizer05but highly customized resp tailored to fit on embedded with touchscreen and no mouse15:59
DocScrutinizer05bringing it to debian is... well I don't find a better word for it than "fuzzy"16:00
DocScrutinizer05fremantle kernel is FOSS but based on http://elinux.org/OMAP_Power_Management aiui, which makes for 50+% of the awesome standby time of N90016:02
DocScrutinizer05unlike android and other embedded OS, maemo completely relies on zeroclocking of idle CPU16:04
sunweaverDocScrutinizer05: so providing the Hildon Desktop in Debian would put a demand on many other applications to link into the hildon API?16:04
DocScrutinizer05other OS either stop tasks that are not having focus, or they even suspend the whole device to RAM which also isn't really a nice idea16:05
sunweaverthe idea is getting Debian ready for embedded devices.16:05
DocScrutinizer05sunweaver: that's fremantle16:05
sunweaverhmmm...16:05
sunweaverbut it's based on old Debian sources that are unmaintained in Debian...16:05
sunweaverdo you maintain the complete stack yourself?16:06
DocScrutinizer05well, then redefine your task16:06
DocScrutinizer05:-)16:06
sunweaverbased on loads of old upstream releases?16:06
DocScrutinizer05ask pali and freemangordon about that, afaik they do exactly that16:06
DocScrutinizer05backporting of new patches16:07
DocScrutinizer05is a main task of CSSU16:07
sunweaverwhat would make sense to me is take the non-Debian component in Fremantle, tailor them in the role of upstream, so that they fit into Debian, propagate APIs for Hildon that other upstream project should adopt and then build your stack for the Neo900 from there...16:07
sunweaverok...16:07
DocScrutinizer05we're not going to completely re-invent fremantle16:08
sunweaverhehe... course not...16:08
sunweaverhmmm...16:08
DocScrutinizer05since then we'd duplicate what mer/nemo already did.., twice? three times?16:08
sunweaverI tend to compare things with Ubuntu and Debian...16:09
DocScrutinizer05eeeew ubuntu16:09
sunweaverIt's so easy to get software into Ubuntu...16:09
sunweaverBut if you want to get the software widely spread, get it into Debian...16:09
sunweaverit will end up in Ubuntu anyway and also in other derivatives...16:09
sunweaverSo the sustainable approach for a Debian derived system is: go back to the roots.16:10
sunweaverIMHO16:10
DocScrutinizer05well, look e.g for marble16:10
sunweaverget your stack running inside Debian, and only add hardware specific stuff in fremantle16:10
DocScrutinizer05http://maemo.org/packages/view/marble/16:11
sunweavermarble? URL?16:11
DocScrutinizer05it's a "kde" app16:11
sunweaveryes. and?16:11
DocScrutinizer05but you don't port fremantle or hildon to marble or kde, you port marble to hildon16:11
sunweaversure.16:12
merlin1991hildon is a full set of apis just like kde or the gnome desktop16:12
sunweaverhildon is a desktop UI, right?16:12
merlin1991hildon-desktop is16:12
sunweaverok, API.16:12
merlin1991but hildon goes further16:12
DocScrutinizer05hildon is a desktop manager16:12
DocScrutinizer05incl API as usual16:12
sunweaveris it tied to a distribution (fremantle)?16:12
DocScrutinizer05yes, kinda16:13
DocScrutinizer05since it's pretty hw specific16:13
sunweaverhmmm... ok.16:13
DocScrutinizer05I already mentioned this16:13
merlin1991it even has screen sizes hardcoded in a few places :D16:13
sunweavertouchpad, no keyboard.16:13
sunweaverurghh....16:13
merlin1991touch + keyboard16:13
sunweaverok, that's hardware specific.16:13
DocScrutinizer05uh? we got proper hw kbd! ;-)16:13
sunweaverright, N900 has a keyboard.16:13
sunweaverbut can do without...16:14
sunweaverso, but basically, there is nothing hardware specific I can see in the generic concept.16:14
merlin1991regarding the screen size though, there is a project that changed hildon-desktop so that it is resolution independend16:14
sunweaverI know, Cordia. But they are dead.16:14
DocScrutinizer05bottom line: don't bring Hildon to debian, since it's already there (fremantle == debian special). Bring new debian stuff to fremantle16:15
sunweaverit seems16:15
sunweaverDocScrutinizer05: how about finding a way to automize that?16:15
DocScrutinizer05tlak about that to the specialists, pali, freemangordon, FatPhil, jonwil16:15
DocScrutinizer05merlin199116:16
sunweaverok.16:16
sunweaveranyone of the mentioned persons, I am happy to gain feedback on the above ^^^^16:16
DocScrutinizer05I'm just the spiritus rector16:16
DocScrutinizer05and even that is arguable ;-)16:16
DocScrutinizer05but, for example, don't even start to think about bringing systemd to fremantle, just because debian seems to import that shite now ;-P16:20
DocScrutinizer05for Meo900 the goal is to stay binary-compatible to all the existing N900 apps16:21
DocScrutinizer05Neo900 even16:21
DocScrutinizer05we don't want to start a new "distro" for that hw platform16:21
DocScrutinizer05the applealing thing is exactly the proven OS and the wealth of existing apps (though  many of them are not actively maintained anymore, but still work just fine)16:22
DocScrutinizer05and osme of the core apps are ~closed and thus never will get ported to any new distro, no matter how similar16:23
DocScrutinizer05some*16:23
DocScrutinizer05we want to keep those, since they are really fundamental for the fremantle UX16:24
sunweaverack16:25
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DocScrutinizer05until somebody conmes up with a FOSS implementation of calendar, contacts, dialer, notifictions, conversations, telepathy, *all* of that nicely integrated, we can't move on with fremantle to a new "distro"16:25
* DocScrutinizer05 waves16:27
DocScrutinizer05have to run16:27
DocScrutinizer05l8rs16:27
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DocScrutinizer51damn, O2-germany has general connectivy issues, allegedly thanks to strom17:46
DocScrutinizer51storm that is17:47
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sixwheeledbeastFOSS calendar is in progress.18:35
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DocScrutinizer05nice19:14
sixwheeledbeastit's qt from the same dev that maintains OMP.19:17
sixwheeledbeastStill work to be done but I am using it day to day with no obvious issues.19:18
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DocScrutinizer05will it work with all the apps that depend on its API? like e.g. Fahrplan, to create tasks/appointments from a train schedule?19:44
DocScrutinizer05SMS?19:44
DocScrutinizer05mail?19:44
sixwheeledbeasthttp://wiki.maemo.org/Qalendar19:45
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DocScrutinizer05is it just me or is maemo seeing a second springtime?19:59
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