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| freemangordon | sailus: no idea, I guess from meego | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
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| freemangordon | oh, wait, vaux2 is for omap3isp | 00:09 |
| freemangordon | cameras are on VANA | 00:10 |
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| sailus | Same regulator. | 00:54 |
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| Pali | freemangordon: in 3.10-n900 repo I enabled CONFIG_OMAP3_L2_AUX_SECURE_SAVE_RESTORE and updated omap3-rom-rng (random number generator) | 01:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* freemangordon: not logged in to nickserv | 01:20 |
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| jonwil | hi | 05:12 |
| jonwil | ~seen nicolai | 05:14 |
| infobot | jonwil: i haven't seen 'nicolai' | 05:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | moin jonwil | 06:23 |
| jonwil | hi | 06:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: you need to log in to nickserv, otherwise some IRC functions will not work for you | 06:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /ns info jonwil | 06:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-o | 06:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-09-20 05:26:02] [Notice] -NickServ- Last seen : Oct 03 15:38:15 2012 (50 weeks, 1 day, 11:47:47 ago) | 06:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /ns help identify | 06:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /msg nickserv help identify | 06:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if your client doesn't support the /ns shortcut | 06:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /msg nickserv help password | 06:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /msg nickserv help setpass | 06:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | scrap the line befor that | 06:30 |
| jonwil | I just ifentified | 06:30 |
| jonwil | identified | 06:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good | 06:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then e.g. invite-exempts will apply | 06:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) | 06:31 |
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| jonwil | still waiting for my Gentoo box to finish compiling :) | 06:31 |
| jonwil | finish updating :) | 06:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hah | 06:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys cssu | 06:35 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'cssu' by key (6): cssu-thumb ;; fapman+cssu ;; #maemo cssu-state ;; cssu ;; cssu-optional ;; cssu-devel. | 06:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu-optional | 06:35 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, cssu-optional is http://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/how_to_include_rewrites_of_closed_blobs/ | 06:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~cssu-optional is also http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/meetings/2012-05-14.txt | 06:39 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05: okay | 06:39 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 ponders to set up an autoresponder for regex along the line "why .* not goes into CSSU" | 06:41 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | especially for freemangordon and e*_ | 06:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this constant bitching and spreading of FUD and made-up facts starts to seriously annoy me | 06:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1375494&postcount=6 | 06:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | extremely annoying example, filled with ~85% made-up and erratic assumptions: ivgalvez' rant in http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 - now moved to another thread I can't locate | 06:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, we have public meetings and policies decided upon during such meetings for some reason, eh? | 06:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not for some guys to wait until those who proposed and drafted the policy are annoyed to a degree where they leave, by constant ignorance, and then those guys try to push their way | 06:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's an extremely rude behaviour against all those who took the time to come up with a *solutions* for itches that those ignorant guys uttered the loudest | 06:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or - to put it plain and straight - we have a policy how to include arbitrary packages into CSSU. If that policy doesn't meet your ideal, then too bad. It been set up for the benefit of all of us, incl users. You can't ignore it just for your own convenience | 06:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and for sure it's silly to try and convince the "distro" maintainer to ignore that policy, when it's been him who introduced it | 06:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: ^^^ right? | 07:00 |
| jonwil | is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91399&highlight=ivgalvez the thread you wanted (re the rant from ivgalvez)? | 07:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | YES! :-)) many thanks | 07:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>First of all is lack of manpower<< so what? Ivgalvez to do the scheduler and tell devels what to work on? | 07:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>Currently, the only development on Maemo OS is being done inside CSSU with a very small team of developers<< yep, but unrelated to FPTF >>and it's difficult to think that they will be able to maintain both CSSU for N900 and a new port for the Neo900 at the same time.<< who says they shall or will do? Nobody suggested that | 07:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [removing redundant bits] >>But also there will be a clash of interests regarding development for N900 and Neo900<< UHUH! >>For example, open source replacements for closed applications are not entering CSSU<< well, see *my* rant above >>we see that improved/upstream versions of packages are not allowed to be part of it<< ditto | 07:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>but a port to a different hardware will require to rewrite as many closed source components as possible.<< says who? | 07:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>Because it's not just enough to run an unmodified Fremantle image on the Neo900 with a shiny new kernel.<< again, says who? | 07:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>Using closed source applications from Nokia in a non Nokia device, would be illegal<< bullshit | 07:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >>and even if Nokia might not care about it now, it's a clear risk to the project as a C&D could be received at any moment<< and here it starts to get bizarre | 07:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll rather stop my review, or some chanop might kick me for extreme spamming and ranting | 07:11 |
| jonwil | I see no reason why replacement work cant be done in a way that benefits both CSSU and Neo900 | 07:16 |
| jonwil | for example any MCE replacement that may show up could go into CSSU AND be changed for any changes hardware on Neo900 | 07:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: absolutely my (even initial) idea | 07:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but some guys take _everything_ they can use to pervert and invert it to the opposite and use it against something unrelated, just because it can get used this way, after transmutation | 07:20 |
| jonwil | I would even say that we could potentially make ofono or fsogsmd talk the right dbus interfaces for replacing the cellular services daemon (like we talked about before) but make it support both an Option backend (for the Neo900) and the existing ISI backend (for the N900) so it too could be used in CSSU | 07:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of course, I thought we already made clear we'll do exactly that ;-) | 07:21 |
| jonwil | The hard part there is figuring out all the DBUS interfaces | 07:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but that doesn't matter to ivgalvez who is pissed about CSSU not forcefeeding new alternative distro to all users | 07:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when it was for ivgalvez, even the wallpaper was nailed down in MP | 07:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "hey, let's introduce our own Non-Nokia theme!" | 07:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "let's ship it via CSSU!" | 07:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | instead of fixing the idiocy of MP, those guys plan to exploit the concept for their own purposes, doing exactly same like Nokia did, just in the opposite direction | 07:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "Nokia foced chess-game onto all users' devices - new CSSU will delete it from all isers' devices" SUUUURE! | 07:25 |
| wmarone | boy, you jumped down his throat | 07:26 |
| jonwil | hey, I like the chess game (except for the fact that it shows just how much I SUCK at chess when even the easy setting is far too hard for me to beat :) | 07:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "Nokia forced camera-ui onto user, CSSU now forces camera-ui2 onto all users" SUUUUURE | 07:26 |
| jonwil | so yeah today I plan to work on playing with pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice and on MCE stuff (mce stuff will need to wait for my Gentoo box to finish updating :) | 07:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIX DAT MP, FINALLY! nuff said | 07:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | idiotic bitching about "what goes into CSSU MP, and what doesn't" | 07:28 |
| jonwil | I wonder why Nokia went with the mp-blah concept in the first place | 07:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | easier for them | 07:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they sold a product | 07:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no idea about FOSS concepts and spirit | 07:28 |
| jonwil | yeah they wanted a fixed "firmware" that contain a fixed set of packages with updates just pulling in a new mp-blah package | 07:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically Nokia exploited and abused linux as much as they legally could | 07:29 |
| jonwil | Compared to how it is on some phones running a Linux kernel (like my old Motorola Z6) we have it so good on the N900. | 07:33 |
| jonwil | The Z6 only ran Motorola signed kernels | 07:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: sure | 07:34 |
| jonwil | well until someone found an exploit in the bootloader that is :) | 07:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but that doesn't make MP concept any better or any more worthy to be kept and possibly even augmented, instead of finally fixed | 07:35 |
| jonwil | nope | 07:35 |
| jonwil | we should definatly fix it | 07:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 07:35 |
| jonwil | and get rid of it for good | 07:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 07:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | paricularly since I'm fed up with taking the flames for allegedly "not letting in" alternative FOSS replacements "into CSSU", when in fact I'm only defending user from augmenting resp perpetuating MP concept | 07:37 |
| jonwil | all of the bits related to package management and installing are 100% FOSS so there is nothing standing in the way of replacing that crap | 07:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it fells like me standing at a illegal landfill and getting bashed by those who don't understand why they can't dump their trash there as well | 07:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | feels* even | 07:39 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: morning. do you have time, oscilloscope and a spare n900 you can disassemble? I am out of ideas what to do with SSI/ISP, I think both suffer from the same problem | 07:44 |
| freemangordon | It is either lack of some power supply or some clock | 07:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: what do you think about radically removing all DEPENDS in MP, and instead using pre/post-install script of MP to run apt-get install commands? | 07:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: sorry, no scope | 07:46 |
| freemangordon | but I just can't figure out what exactly is missing :( | 07:46 |
| freemangordon | dammit | 07:46 |
| freemangordon | I have a 10MHz 20 years old russian one :D | 07:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: I wound up my lab some 6 years ago | 07:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | technology moved too fast for my lab to keep pace with it, thus it became more and more obsolete | 07:47 |
| freemangordon | we'll have to find someone who can trace what is going on in the real life (HW level that is) | 07:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and in the end I agreed with Werner Almesberger and Andy Green that human brain is the best lab tool of all | 07:48 |
| freemangordon | esp when it comes to battery usage optimizations | 07:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ETM | 07:48 |
| freemangordon | ~etm | 07:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and patched kernel drivers, with lots of kprintf | 07:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | embedded trace macrocell, see OMAP | 07:49 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: hmm, no, I want to see what comes in and goes out of the peripherals, not OMAP | 07:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a nifty little ARM IP block | 07:50 |
| freemangordon | for example - is camera mux really in high when it should be | 07:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err wut? isn't it like 2what goes out there comes in here" and vice versa? | 07:51 |
| freemangordon | is anything flowing through SSI bus and what is the frequency? | 07:51 |
| freemangordon | etc | 07:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I bet the frequency is what it got set to | 07:51 |
| freemangordon | OMAP can't be used to monitor RAPU<->GAZOO for example | 07:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and what's flowing thru it shows up in the buffer | 07:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, actually the APE OMAP can't, that's true | 07:52 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: The point is that IMO everything is set up correctly | 07:52 |
| freemangordon | but the shit still don;t work | 07:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, then what's missing is the right initialization sequence | 07:53 |
| freemangordon | which is done by the drivers, that work with older kernels | 07:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, init isn't done by the kernel drivers for all I know | 07:53 |
| freemangordon | so it must be something in that new facny hwmod and/or clock framework | 07:53 |
| freemangordon | fancy even | 07:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a complex thing done in higher level daemons | 07:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as well you could assume DHCP is done by the NIC kernel driver | 07:54 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: it looks like the whole power domains are shut down when they should not be | 07:54 |
| freemangordon | anyway, attachig a scope will be much easier/faster than that ETM IMO | 07:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ISI is a rather complex multichannel protocol afaik | 07:55 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I am not getting interrupts from the SSI module, what has ISI to do with that | 07:56 |
| freemangordon | the same for ISP | 07:56 |
| freemangordon | it is like saying that it is libdigicam to blame for no interrupts from ISP :P | 07:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well | 07:57 |
| * freemangordon think who could have a scope and spare device to play with... | 07:57 | |
| freemangordon | thinks* | 07:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | patch the SSI driver in fremantle 2.6.28 and trace the first action it is doing | 07:58 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: the driver that doesn't work in 3.10 works in 3.5 | 07:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (scope) have you even checked if there are any accessible contact points to attach a probe to? | 07:59 |
| freemangordon | (SSI that is) | 07:59 |
| freemangordon | see the bottom of rx51 schematics | 07:59 |
| jonwil | Time to have some food then work on pulseaudio-module-nokia-voice stuff :) | 08:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't even know what you would want to verify or log, on SSI, with a scope | 08:00 |
| freemangordon | power supplies and clocks | 08:01 |
| freemangordon | the usual stuff | 08:01 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I feel stuck, can;t think of any other way to continue | 08:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, so let's assume I did, and i'm telling you "clock is there" | 08:01 |
| freemangordon | what frequency it is? | 08:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | AHA | 08:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | does that matter? | 08:02 |
| freemangordon | yes | 08:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why? | 08:02 |
| freemangordon | because (in case of SSI) we talk at 55Mbs for example | 08:02 |
| freemangordon | is if we have iface cclock at 110, it won;t work | 08:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as long as it's not way too high, it shouldn't make a lot of difference, except for max bandwidth | 08:03 |
| freemangordon | same for the cameras, they expect 9.6 Mhz | 08:04 |
| freemangordon | (programmed to do so) | 08:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when you're afraid that clock is not N but 2*N, then set clock to N/16 for a start, and see if it works then | 08:04 |
| freemangordon | already did :( | 08:04 |
| freemangordon | I am afraid that either plls are incorrectly programmed or powered down | 08:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that should be able to get checked | 08:05 |
| freemangordon | both ssi and ISP use their own pll/divider noone else uses | 08:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PLLs have some registers where you can check if they are locked for example | 08:06 |
| freemangordon | or rather divider chain | 08:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems you have a clue, a trace to follow, already | 08:06 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: sure, but attaching a scope is faster way to check what is wring/missing | 08:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 08:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it only shows you THAT *sth* is missing (or not) | 08:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it doesn't reveal WHAT is missing | 08:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how about JTAG? | 08:07 |
| freemangordon | well, if a power supply is missing, it will show which power supply is that | 08:07 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: would'n jtag require a special SW? | 08:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err | 08:08 |
| freemangordon | I know what jtag is | 08:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on your JTAG probe, sure | 08:08 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 08:08 |
| freemangordon | which I don;t have :) | 08:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just thinking aloud | 08:08 |
| freemangordon | ah | 08:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also iirc you *always* can _read_ GPIO | 08:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even when not in GPIO mode | 08:09 |
| freemangordon | yes, but is that really propagated to the outside world? is output buffer enabled? etc... | 08:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 08:10 |
| freemangordon | anyway, have to run | 08:10 |
| freemangordon | will think about what to do | 08:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the GPIO input afaik is always connected to the pin, and reading the register always shows the actual state of the pin | 08:10 |
| freemangordon | hmm, iirc it is connected through a buffer | 08:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not input | 08:11 |
| freemangordon | will check in trmo | 08:11 |
| freemangordon | *trm | 08:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 08:11 |
| freemangordon | however, gpios won;t help for the power supplies | 08:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | check in RL as well, with sth simple like e.g. some UART CTS or RTS or whatever | 08:11 |
| freemangordon | btw I can always read /dev/mem for mux and gpios | 08:12 |
| freemangordon | no need to do it in the kernel | 08:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 08:12 |
| freemangordon | hmm, maybe I should do it, while searching for a girl with a washing machine :) | 08:13 |
| freemangordon | (someone with a scope) | 08:13 |
| freemangordon | anyway, bye | 08:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why would you need a scope for power lines? | 08:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also, which power lines would that be? | 08:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, when some LDO isn't powered up I'd expect that to a) show immediately since every single one powers quite a number of components, and b) you should be able to easily tell the fact from reading the config of the LDO directly from LDO's config registers, and see if those values suggest it's powered or not | 08:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd rather trust in that than in any clumsy probing of a impossible to reach trace on the PCB with a scope | 08:19 |
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| jonwil | ok, investigating module-nokia-voice didn't get me anywhere | 11:31 |
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| jonwil | anyone here any good with debian packaging? | 11:54 |
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| Pali | jonwil: me? | 13:18 |
| jonwil | :P | 13:19 |
| jonwil | wrong channel :P | 13:19 |
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| dos1 | <DocScrutinizer05> jonwil: what do you think about radically removing all DEPENDS in MP, and instead using pre/post-install script of MP to run apt-get install commands? | 14:50 |
| dos1 | it's not as simple as that, you can't run another apt-get/dpkg when one instance is running | 14:50 |
| dos1 | I think the correct way to go would be chaging dependencies to recommendations, or something like that | 14:52 |
| dos1 | but it might be necessary to check and maybe fix apt configuration (dunno about HAM) and checking it's impact on other packages | 14:53 |
| dos1 | s/it's/its/ | 14:53 |
| infobot | dos1 meant: but it might be necessary to check and maybe fix apt configuration (dunno about HAM) and checking its impact on other packages | 14:53 |
| Pali | not possible | 14:53 |
| Pali | you cannot run dpkg/apt from pre/post scripts | 14:53 |
| dos1 | Pali: just said that :P | 14:54 |
| Pali | the only one way to deal with dependences is metapackage | 14:54 |
| dos1 | yes, that's for sure | 14:55 |
| dos1 | but some dependencies shouldn't be hard ones | 14:55 |
| dos1 | I guess everything is now in DEPENDS? | 14:56 |
| jonwil | The right way is to fix H-A-M and apt-get and dpkg and etc so that we can do things the way Debian proper does it | 14:57 |
| jonwil | they dont have metapackages or other crap | 14:57 |
| dos1 | in Debian, there's no "one set of complete system" | 14:57 |
| dos1 | Ubuntu is actually a bit closer to Maemo in this regard, with their ubuntu-desktop, kubuntu-desktop, xubuntu-desktop etc. metapackages | 14:58 |
| dos1 | but well, maybe it's possible to use tasksel somehow | 14:59 |
| dos1 | err, those ubuntu metapkgs are provided by tasksel :) | 14:59 |
| dos1 | so I quess that's the answer - it's as close to Debian as we can get | 15:00 |
| jonwil | what we really need is some way to say "this package is sticky and shouldn't be uninstalled automatically" (IIRC apt-get/dpkg/etc supports that but the Maemo version is missing that functionality) | 15:01 |
| jonwil | That way we can mark packages are "must keep" and stop them from being uninstalled unless the user asks for them to be uninstalled... | 15:01 |
| dos1 | this "stickiness" is meant to be used by user, not by distro maintainers | 15:01 |
| jonwil | no, there is some other feature that lets you mark something as "system" or something | 15:01 |
| dos1 | oh, that one | 15:02 |
| dos1 | it's for showing big warning "you're trying to remove essential package, type 'Yes I know what I'm doing' to continue" :P | 15:02 |
| jonwil | yes, the one that makes sure that whatever the apt-get command for removing unnecessary packages is wont remove them automatically | 15:03 |
| dos1 | autoremove is actually another thing | 15:03 |
| jonwil | oh ok | 15:03 |
| dos1 | proper dependencies alone should do it just fine | 15:03 |
| dos1 | the proper way to handle current metapkg mess would be to use tasks together with package priorities | 15:06 |
| dos1 | https://wiki.debian.org/tasksel | 15:06 |
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| jonwil | ok, be back soon, need to go get some food before the shops shut :) | 15:06 |
| jonwil | will stay idle in IRC and read scrollback when I get back :P | 15:07 |
| dos1 | this way you're free to replace any package you want, for instance with its free replacement | 15:07 |
| dos1 | and still you have control under dependences of whole system and you can bring back original state with few commands | 15:08 |
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| jonwil | ok, back | 16:00 |
| jonwil | time to cook some Nachos then get into MCE work :) | 16:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh, c'mon | 16:11 |
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| jonwil | meh what? | 16:13 |
| dos1 | meh, nachos | 16:13 |
| dos1 | ;) | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't run apt from within apt? Oh! then how about exec, or about shell scripts, or about batch, or about "echo $cmd > /etc/crontab" Ooops we got no cron, but we got alarmd | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afk for coffee | 16:14 |
| dos1 | IMO that would be worse than what's there at the moment | 16:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nothing can be worse than nokia/cssu MP | 16:15 |
| dos1 | even if it's not worse, then for sure it's not better either :P | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it has one killer feature, it doesn't create hard dependencies that forbid uninstalling of packages | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | resp uninstall MP when e.g. installing procps | 16:18 |
| dos1 | I'm for doing it "the debian way", with tasksel and/or metapackages done properly | 16:18 |
| dos1 | which doesn't create hard dependencies either | 16:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the OK all for it, grat! | 16:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | great even | 16:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we just finally MUST sanitize that shit that Nokia inherited to us | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's like a psycho virus | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | needs to get nuked from God's great earth | 16:20 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | since everybody has another notion what needs wnd what mustn't get into the MP | 16:20 |
| dos1 | actually, it shouldn't be hard to modify current metapkgs to behave correctly | 16:21 |
| dos1 | what's more challenging is proper upgrade path | 16:21 |
| dos1 | it may or may not be a bit harder, it needs evaluating | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | first things first. Please come up with a proper sanitized MP | 16:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since obviously nobody likes the concept merlin1991 and me introduced how to maybe live *with* the old MP | 16:24 |
| jonwil | I think the idea that a metapackage forces exactly one and only one specific version of <package> is a very bad idea going forward | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ergo we need to nuke MP completely, or transform it into something bearable | 16:25 |
| dos1 | MP shouldn't depend on specific versions | 16:25 |
| jonwil | Debian packaging is something I know nothing about so I will let the gurus nut it out :) | 16:26 |
| dos1 | that's right | 16:26 |
| dos1 | and it should depend on as little as possible to get bare system working | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *nokia* could do that MP shite, but a *community* impossibly can prosper with that abomination | 16:26 |
| dos1 | the rest should be in recommends, which is installed by default anyway | 16:26 |
| dos1 | but it's not hard dependency | 16:26 |
| dos1 | exactly like tasks are done in Debian | 16:27 |
| dos1 | actually, I've googled a bit and it turns out that tasksel now is implemented using nothing else than metapackages :P | 16:27 |
| jonwil | We have 100% source code to all things that matter for package management on N900 Fremantle | 16:27 |
| jonwil | and we can change it any way we like | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or maybe let's think why we need MP. Fix the crap that depends on it? | 16:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so we actually *can* purge the MP and still everybody happy | 16:29 |
| dos1 | yup, deleting mp should be possible | 16:30 |
| jonwil | Anyone know if there are any packages on Fremantle that relate to cryptography and security (in particular, to encryption for internet traffic like SSL) that are currently closed source? | 16:30 |
| dos1 | depending on mp is very lazy way to depend on particular version of system | 16:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, one big problem always been: apt-get upgrade could create inconsistencies. But that been just because packages that depend on each other had no such dependencies declared in their .deb | 16:31 |
| dos1 | you know, needs PR1.2 or greater - depends on mp version 1.2 or later | 16:31 |
| dos1 | we shouldn't need to modify anything in package management, maybe except of HAM | 16:31 |
| jonwil | With all the noise about security and cryptography lately (especially the whole NSA leaks thing) I dont want to have important-for-security-but-closed-source packages on my device, things I cant audit or play with or update to a later version with fixes for security issues... | 16:31 |
| dos1 | rather packages are to be fixed | 16:32 |
| dos1 | even closed ones can still be repackaged, so that shouldn't be a big issue | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: I don't think we got such pkgs | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: exactly | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but THAT is really a bit of work, I guess | 16:33 |
| jonwil | wifi security bits are closed but WiFi security is so weak anyway that you shouldn't be relying on it for actual security | 16:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: particularly you couldn't fix it | 16:33 |
| jonwil | might take a look at the list of closed pkgs and look for anything that might be security-sensitive :) | 16:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nice plan | 16:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | go ahead! | 16:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: then otoh, how many packages might be there on maemo that have no big sister on debian, with proper dependencies? | 16:35 |
| dos1 | I have no idea | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wouldn't cloning the debian dependencies be pretty simple | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we still can keep the friggin MP for the core system, the real *core* | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like d-bus, alarmd, etc | 16:37 |
| dos1 | those should be hard depends in MP IMO | 16:37 |
| dos1 | and soft ones for the rest | 16:37 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno if our apt supports that | 16:38 |
| dos1 | unless it's very clippled down, it should | 16:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I mean, it doesn't even support "CONFLICTS" | 16:38 |
| dos1 | crippled* | 16:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or is that just HAM? | 16:38 |
| dos1 | I think it's just HAM | 16:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think that's just HAM that blows chunks | 16:39 |
| dos1 | I never noticed any symptoms of apt being dumbed down on Maemo | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia crippled apt and mohammadag reverted it ;-P | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia forgot that apt is FOSS when designing their ovi store | 16:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P | 16:40 |
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| dos1 | well, apt (proper, debian one :P) is pretty flexible | 16:41 |
| dos1 | you can configure it to treat recommends as dependences, or suggestions, or whatever | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly one of the reasons for dropping maemo and doing all things completely different in meego/harm | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia hoped to sanitize themselves from ovi-store | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on fremantle they realized that they fscked up | 16:43 |
| dos1 | what was so fscked up with it? | 16:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | what been my last post that made it? | 16:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~ping | 16:47 |
| infobot | ~pong | 16:47 |
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| dos1 | [15:43] <DocScrutinizer05> on fremantle they realized that they fscked up | 16:48 |
| dos1 | [15:43] <dos1> what was so fscked up with it? | 16:48 |
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| dos1 | and then joins, leaves and your question :P | 16:49 |
| jonwil | did we find a solution to the problem of the kernel maintainer who insists that only Nokia can change Nokia drivers even though Nokia have long abandoned Linux and probably dont even care that the driver in question still exists? | 16:49 |
| dos1 | let's send them copy of g_nokia with our patches named g_maemo | 16:50 |
| dos1 | so only maemo devs will be able to change it :P | 16:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | that's why they *had* to come up with aegis, and HARM | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since when are packages owned by one maintainer, in kernel upstream? | 16:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1' idea sounds a feasible approach indeed | 16:55 |
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| jonwil | Its not that they are owned by one maintainer, its that the lead developer (Nokia in this case) gets to decide how "their" driver works and that making wholesale changes without buy-in from the lead developer isn't acceptable | 16:56 |
| dos1 | well, Nokia is not g_nokia maintainer nor lead developer anymore | 16:57 |
| jonwil | One needs to convince the kernel guys of that | 16:57 |
| jonwil | convince them that Nokia have abandoned g_nokia | 16:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, it's not the first nor the only case where more than one driver mutually exclusive service the same resource | 16:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CSSU happily can switch to g_maemo | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and g_maemo can coexist upstream alongside g_nokia | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or did I miss sth? | 17:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while g_nokia bitrots and g_maemo obviously serves same purpose but gets constant maintenance, upstream maintainers eventually will drop g_nokia | 17:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dispute aolved | 17:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | solved even | 17:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly when no freak on this planet is using g_nokia in any bew distro/release | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | new* | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | isn't that how FOSS and linux works? | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think upstream not allowing somebody $random-hacker to wreck g_nokia is a sane thing | 17:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we would get into endless battles | 17:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ruining linux at large | 17:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but just like nobody may wreck g_nokia, nobody may forbid a concurrent g_maemo | 17:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's the FOSS way | 17:07 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 wonders why he didn't think that way when bitching against lis302 brainfxored upstream drivers | 17:09 | |
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| cybertheque | Perhaps what I want is SSU related... | 17:21 |
| cybertheque | Nokia-N900:/# /usr/bin/flasher --query-rd-mode --local | 17:22 |
| cybertheque | flasher v2.8.2 (Jan 8 2010) | 17:22 |
| cybertheque | Using flashing protocol Mk II. | 17:22 |
| cybertheque | Found device RX-51, hardware revision 2101 | 17:22 |
| cybertheque | Method is not supported in the current mode | 17:22 |
| cybertheque | How to enable 'update' mode in the shell? | 17:22 |
| cybertheque | Thanks... | 17:22 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | you might try to start softupd | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I dunno exactly but something is needed in addition to flasher to access the local NAND/CAL. However there are more direct simple ways to check for rd-mode than via flasher | 17:34 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | NOT for setting R&D mode though | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway check out KP package and how it manages to flash new kernel locally | 17:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | you need to do similar "tricks" to get flasher --query-rd-mode --local working | 17:36 |
| cybertheque | k - will investigate. my intention is to hopefully enter the usb update mode from a shell command while logged in without needing to press the 'u' key and power cycle. the mainboard is wired up on a test bench (no display) to a serial port interface so it is dangerous to physically manipulate it for flashing... | 17:36 |
| jonwil | Question, is there a reason why libc6 is not in CSSU? | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you don't need to press the "U" key, NOLO will check for (external USB-attached) flasher to send a "Hello, here I am!" and that will serve as well for entering flashing mode | 17:38 |
| cybertheque | k - i will plug in the usb and see -- thanks | 17:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: well, prolly becasue it's considered high risk | 17:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~tell cyberthequeabout flashing | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~tell cybertheque about flashing | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cybertheque: there's a reason why the howto says "start flasher, *then* plug in USB to N900" | 17:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | both ROMBL and NOLO will check for a fraction of a second if a "hello" message comes in via USB | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if there does, they will enter flashing mode, just as if "U" been pressed | 17:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually ROMBL not even checks for "U" (in case you want / need to do coldflash) | 17:42 |
| cybertheque | thanks, works | 17:42 |
| cybertheque | Console message seen is: | 17:42 |
| cybertheque | Nokia-N900:/# [44798.477172] g_nokia gadget: high speed config #1: nokia1 | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw your description of what you do sounds intriguing. May I ask...? | 17:43 |
| dos1 | ~rombl | 17:43 |
| cybertheque | flasher-3.5 connects | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ROM base BOOTLOADER | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or stage-0 bootloader | 17:43 |
| dos1 | thx | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the only bootloader you impossibly can ruin or mess up | 17:44 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it supports coldflashing to flash a new XLOADER and NOLO, if you ever manage to break them | 17:44 |
| cybertheque | i have a series of tests using the stock kernel with initrd on boot - need to load (not flash) these and view console messages. At some point I will need to thoroughly understand the bootloader however and appreciate your comments. | 17:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dos1: check your PC's syslog, when plugging in a powered-down N900 to USB. First thing you see is ROMBL greeting | 17:45 |
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| cybertheque | exactly - i have installed a libusb dummy for ROMBL | 17:46 |
| dos1 | I have to trust your words :) | 17:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | second must be NOLO then, then 3rd which is linux kernel | 17:47 |
| dos1 | xloader and nolo have to be signed, I guess? | 17:48 |
| Pali | only xloader is signed | 17:49 |
| Pali | nolo is not signed on n900 | 17:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | xloader | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NOLO not | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it would be xloader to check NOLO signature - it doesn't | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ROMBL however checks xloader's signature | 17:51 |
| dos1 | interesting | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly interesting if N900 xloader could boot up N9 | 17:52 |
| Pali | no, because n9 has another signature | 17:52 |
| Pali | also different n9 hw revs have different signature | 17:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh right :-/ | 17:54 |
| Pali | maybe different n900 hw revs have different signing key? | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, I doubt they have different ROMBL signature, since frequently you don't change ROMBL at all. But for sure 3630 SoC has a different ROMBL than 3430 | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the key is 2hardcoded" to the ROMBL | 17:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I doubt N900 hw revs have changed ROMBL though they *may* have done this | 17:57 |
| Pali | jonwil: if you have patches for libc6 which should be in CSSU, ask merlin for new repo and push changes | 17:57 |
| cybertheque | I can query the device and reboot it but not load to it in this state. i don't suppose the ssu ever needs to simply load images rather than flashing them... | 17:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you could test by coldflashing with overriding hw code to another version | 17:57 |
| Pali | cybertheque: I did not read full backlog, but do you want to boot n900 into "update" emmc mode? | 17:58 |
| jonwil | The CSSU libc thing was in reference to things Nokia bundled with libc i.e. timezones | 17:58 |
| cybertheque | i just need to load images, not update (flash) them, without pressing the 'u' key and plugging/unpluggin the usb cable | 17:58 |
| jonwil | i.e. the idea was to put Fremantle libc with newest timezone files in CSSU | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cybertheque: loading images to RAM can be done by NOLO only, you need to physically reboot the system to give NOLO full control over the hw | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in linux you'd do same via e.g. kexec | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | _not_ via NOLO load-to-ram mechanism | 18:00 |
| cybertheque | what do you suggest? short of wiring a momentary contact switch to the 'u' key on the keyboard that i can press at a distance, is there a chance of doing it in software? | 18:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I elaborated on it some lines above - you don't need the 'U' key | 18:01 |
| cybertheque | i will re-read, but i believe that i did what you said, and i cannot load, only flash or query | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you just need to make sure you _first_ start flasher, only _then_ plug N900 USB to PC | 18:02 |
| Pali | cybertheque: if you want to load images, you need to connect n900 via usb | 18:02 |
| cybertheque | it is connected by usb | 18:02 |
| Pali | and then use desktop flasher-3.5 | 18:02 |
| cybertheque | did that - start flasher-3.5 and then plug in the usb | 18:02 |
| Pali | flasher-3.5 -k <kernel_image> -l -b | 18:03 |
| cybertheque | while the n900 is booted into the o/s | 18:03 |
| Pali | cybertheque: use linux version, open keyboard and press U | 18:03 |
| Pali | and after that connect usb | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | DAMN Pali ;-P | 18:03 |
| cybertheque | whole idea is to avoid the need to press 'u' | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ | 18:03 |
| Pali | ok, then you need to start flasher and insert usb cable | 18:03 |
| Pali | and use linux version of flasher | 18:04 |
| Pali | and make sure that your battery is charged to full | 18:04 |
| cybertheque | indeed - is the linux version different in capabilities then? btw, the mainboard is powered externally (not depending on a battery) | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or simply, read *full* | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~flash | 18:04 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware | 18:04 |
| Pali | windows and mac systems has very slow usb enumeration, so you need to press U because win/mac does not see device on usb | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, the linux version runs in an environment that's better understood | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: I don't even know if flasher relies on ENUM or just sends a hello-sequence to all USB endpoints all the time, to detect device | 18:07 |
| cybertheque | ok - linux flasher is next then. so to clarify, while booted into the running o/s on the n900, i will be able to enter the loader's usb 'flashing' or 'update' mode, load images and reboot into them? or can i perhaps simply switch the n900 to the 'update' mode while in the booted o/s, reboot, and have it talk to the external flasher to permit loading images at that point? | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 18:08 |
| Pali | it doing infinite loop with some sleep() and asking kernel for enumerate devices and read usb device list | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: mhm, thanks | 18:08 |
| Pali | my 0xFFFF flasher doing same | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 18:08 |
| Pali | there is no way to tell kernel: sleep process until device with this device id is present in usb... | 18:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cybertheque: for the 5th time: start flasher on PC, then plug in the powered down(!!!) N900, so it runs NOLO which will check for any hello-msg on USB sent by flasher. When such msg is detected during the sub-second time window, it enters flashing mode (resp "load-to-ram" mode) | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no matter if U pressed or not | 18:10 |
| cybertheque | ok - powered down state - that was the missing ingredient. thanks | 18:10 |
| Pali | cybertheque: if host (desktop computer) send some hello message to n900, it will enter into NOLO flashing mode | 18:11 |
| cybertheque | got it - was confused that it could do it while in the running state | 18:11 |
| Pali | but, there is "update" userspace mode | 18:12 |
| Pali | and in this runlevel you can flash eMMC | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, but that probably can't load to RAM and boot that kernel | 18:12 |
| Pali | no | 18:12 |
| Pali | in "update" mode is kernel already running | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 18:12 |
| Pali | it is just classic linux runlevel | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thus: use kexec when you plan to do such tricks from running system | 18:13 |
| Pali | I was just confused about "update" mode... | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~xyawn | 18:13 |
| infobot | hmm... xyawn is nap | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | DANG!! | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~xyawn | 18:13 |
| infobot | i guess xyawn is big coffee | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | better | 18:13 |
| Pali | there is also "test" and "normal" runlevel modes | 18:13 |
| cybertheque | ok, did not work with the windows flasher, so will try with linux flasher next (just for the record) | 18:14 |
| Pali | cybertheque: you can try my 0xFFFF flasher on linux (if flasher-3.5 will not work) | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, we toldya it will most likely not work with windows flasher | 18:14 |
| cybertheque | ok, thanks Pali - will try both | 18:15 |
| Pali | ~0xFFFF | 18:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if it would work on all platforms, Nokia hadn't invented that clumsy "press and hold 'U'" trick | 18:15 |
| Pali | infobot: 0xFFFF is https://gitorious.org/0xffff/ | 18:15 |
| infobot | Pali: okay | 18:15 |
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| cybertheque | ok (don't flame me for using windows yet again) but i found a trick that worked. 1. start flasher-3.5 on windows (usb unplugged); 2. plug in usb with n900 in powerd down state; 3: n900 boots to o/s; 4: use power switch to power cycle n900; 5. n900 boots into a mode (have a complete console trace of it) that accepts the loading of the images | 18:22 |
| cybertheque | and now i know from viewing the console log why my initrd didn't work before -- too large | 18:23 |
| dos1 | I guess you could make a shortcut from 2 to 4 | 18:24 |
| dos1 | plug usb to already powered on n900 and then power cycle | 18:25 |
| cybertheque | will try | 18:25 |
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| cybertheque | dos1: required two power cycles with the shortcut and the device usb is enumerated in pc-suite mode on first power cycle so i guess the five step procedure is easier for me | 18:33 |
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| dos1 | strange | 18:33 |
| cybertheque | tried the 5 step procedure a few more times - works every time for me. good to know - will save a lot of wear and tear on 30 ga wire harness to the board. | 18:37 |
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| cybertheque | BTW, for the record, running the stock o/s there is a time-out on the serial port of about five seconds after which the first input character is not recognized; i have gotten into the habit of typing the backspace key prior to any text input delayed more than five seconds. | 18:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | known issue, UART power-down timer | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can change the power-down timeout by writing to /sys/*/*/*/usart/power/timeout or similar sysnode | 18:44 |
| cybertheque | k - tnx | 18:44 |
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| cybertheque | for the record: Nokia-N900:~# cat /sys/devices/platform/serial8250.0/sleep_timeout | 18:52 |
| cybertheque | 10 | 18:52 |
| cybertheque | Nokia-N900:~# echo "20" > /sys/devices/platform/serial8250.0/sleep_timeout | 18:52 |
| cybertheque | Nokia-N900:~# cat /sys/devices/platform/serial8250.0/sleep_timeout | 18:52 |
| cybertheque | 20 | 18:52 |
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