IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Sunday, 2013-09-15

*** aap has quit IRC00:05
uncloudeddidn't know about "--differences=cumulative".  nice00:20
*** Vlad_on_the_road has quit IRC00:32
*** aap has joined #maemo-ssu00:33
*** aap has quit IRC00:41
*** Vlad_on_the_road has joined #maemo-ssu00:43
*** oldtopman has joined #maemo-ssu00:49
*** Vlad_on_the_road has quit IRC00:52
*** aap has joined #maemo-ssu01:09
*** aap has quit IRC01:15
*** Pali has quit IRC01:30
*** NIN101 has quit IRC01:48
*** Martix_ has joined #maemo-ssu02:09
*** Martix has quit IRC02:12
*** aap has joined #maemo-ssu02:15
*** LauRoman has quit IRC02:25
*** Martix_ has quit IRC03:08
*** sunny_s has quit IRC03:10
*** Martix_ has joined #maemo-ssu03:13
*** Martix_ has quit IRC03:31
*** nox- has quit IRC03:55
*** dos1 has quit IRC04:25
*** jonwil has joined #maemo-ssu04:30
*** amiconn_ has joined #maemo-ssu05:03
*** amiconn has quit IRC05:03
*** amiconn_ is now known as amiconn05:03
*** amiconn has quit IRC08:47
*** amiconn has joined #maemo-ssu08:47
*** oldtopman has quit IRC09:13
*** LauRoman has joined #maemo-ssu09:28
*** scoobertron has quit IRC09:39
*** scoobertron has joined #maemo-ssu10:18
*** Pali has joined #maemo-ssu10:18
*** sunny_s has joined #maemo-ssu10:22
*** Pali has quit IRC10:51
*** Pali has joined #maemo-ssu10:54
*** sunny_s has quit IRC10:57
*** LauRoman has quit IRC11:05
*** Vlad_on_the_road has joined #maemo-ssu11:18
freemangordonPali: any idea who loads hsi/ssi drivers?11:23
*** oooaaaooo has joined #maemo-ssu11:32
*** DrCode has quit IRC11:35
*** DrCode has joined #maemo-ssu11:39
oooaaaooohi guys what is the difference between stable & testing?11:39
*** dhbiker has quit IRC12:15
*** dhbiker has joined #maemo-ssu12:17
*** NIN101 has joined #maemo-ssu12:20
*** NIN101 has quit IRC12:24
*** NIN102 has joined #maemo-ssu12:25
*** NIN102 is now known as NIN10112:30
*** Martix_ has joined #maemo-ssu12:49
DocScrutinizer05see /topic14:28
DocScrutinizer05see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU14:28
*** dos1 has joined #maemo-ssu14:40
Palifreemangordon: no14:57
freemangordonPali: hmm, no matter what I do, there is no responce from cmt  :(15:05
freemangordonit looks like cmt is not powered15:06
freemangordonPali: did you ever got cmt drivers working with 3.x kernels?15:07
freemangordon*get15:07
PaliI think not, they not worked with 3.5 too15:07
freemangordonweird, Skry had them working15:08
freemangordonseems like the patches you've applied are not the correct ones15:08
freemangordonPali: do you have a link to nemomobile kernel adaptation git tree?15:09
freemangordonfor n900 that is15:09
freemangordonI cant find it15:09
Paligit://github.com/nemomobile/kernel-adaptation-n950-n9.git15:09
Paligit://gitorious.org/meego-device-adaptation/n900_kernel.git15:09
Paligit://github.com/skry/linux.git15:09
Paligit://github.com/skry/linux-n900.git15:09
freemangordongit://gitorious.org/meego-device-adaptation/n900_kernel.git gives 40415:10
PaliI have these repos ^^^15:10
freemangordonoh, this is git :D15:10
*** bsdmaniak has joined #maemo-ssu15:13
*** bsdmaniak has quit IRC15:42
*** bsdmaniak has joined #maemo-ssu15:43
*** T_X has quit IRC16:02
*** T_X has joined #maemo-ssu16:02
*** Vlad_on_the_road has quit IRC16:09
*** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu16:18
*** Vlad_on_the_road has joined #maemo-ssu16:18
*** arcean_ has joined #maemo-ssu16:25
*** arcean has quit IRC16:27
freemangordonPali: why "CONFIG_OMAP3_L2_AUX_SECURE_SAVE_RESTORE is not set"?16:31
freemangordonI bet we work without L2 cache16:31
Palido not know16:32
freemangordon:)16:32
PaliI tried to merge rx51_defconfig from maemo 2.6.28 kernel with omap2plus from 3.516:32
freemangordonok16:32
Paliand result is rx51_defconfig in 3.1016:32
Paliif there is something missing, enable it16:32
freemangordonok16:32
Palialso I looked in menuconfig and tried to enable what is needed16:33
Palibut make menuconfig is really really really big16:33
freemangordonPali: in ssi driver there is something missing, but I don;t know how to readd it using hwmod/clock framework16:33
Palifreemangordon: try to ask sre16:33
Palihe upstreaming now ssi driver16:33
Paliand do not know which version using...16:34
freemangordonit is a function disabling autoidle on dpll316:34
freemangordonO bet what he tries to upstream does not work16:34
freemangordon*I16:34
Palihttps://lkml.org/lkml/2013/8/11/6716:35
Palihe could be on #debian16:35
freemangordonPali: seems there is some HW bug, see ssi_disable_dpll3_autoidle in meego tree16:36
freemangordonsre == Skry ?16:36
Palino16:36
freemangordonoh16:36
PaliSebastian Reichel16:37
Palihe porting debian to n90016:37
freemangordonok, will look at what he does16:37
freemangordonhmm seems different16:40
Palifreemangordon: maybe we should look at meego n900 kernel tree if there are not some needed patches16:42
freemangordonseems his driver is ported to hwmod16:42
*** Vlad_on_the_road has quit IRC16:42
freemangordonPali: BTW CONFIG_OMAP3_L2_AUX_SECURE_SAVE_RESTORE is the same as my ppa api16:45
freemangordonI mean, it calls smc to save/restore AUX reg16:45
freemangordonwithout that AUX context get lost on sleep16:45
freemangordonafaik16:46
*** arcean_ has quit IRC16:56
Palifreemangordon: look at commit 1a7e01f01a4af807206de0d26f059c3459f3a1fb in meego n900 git tree16:57
Paliit adding some regulator for camera operation16:57
freemangordonok16:58
Paliand there is another commit cae12d3ebf22039cc7216f317bebac2f797d2a31 which reduce battery consumption16:59
freemangordonPali: want to test sri's ssi driver first17:00
Palithere are maybe more interesting patches...17:00
Paliok17:00
freemangordon:nod:17:00
* DocScrutinizer05 honestly wonders what you guys are targeting at17:14
freemangordon3.x working with maemo?17:15
DocScrutinizer05looks like, yeah17:15
DocScrutinizer05"working" and *working* are two different things though17:15
freemangordonif we can't make it on n900, we aon;t be able to do it on neo900 as well17:16
freemangordon*can't17:16
DocScrutinizer05maybe that whole effort turn out to be futile in the end - see my recent rant why you frequently regularly want to or even have to "fork" and run your own kernel flavor for embedded17:17
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yep, but lets see what we can do with upstream first17:17
DocScrutinizer05sure17:17
DocScrutinizer05:-)17:17
freemangordonbefore doing forks :)17:17
DocScrutinizer05after all you *should* be able to forward-port _all_ the nice powermanagement patches that we find in maemo kernel17:18
freemangordon:nod:17:18
freemangordonBTW I think part of them are already upstreamed17:18
freemangordonbut don;t ask me which prts :D17:18
*** FlameReaper has joined #maemo-ssu17:18
DocScrutinizer05if the result will go upstream ever that's another question17:18
freemangordonsure17:18
DocScrutinizer05but we should be able to get a recent kernel with powersaving as good as maemo 1.6.2817:19
DocScrutinizer052.6....17:19
DocScrutinizer05typo17:19
DocScrutinizer05then also revert all the damage done to sysfs etc by kernel devels ;-) Done17:20
freemangordonPali: re camera - we already have that regulator, but board code is missing the ".supply = "vaux2" part17:21
freemangordonNFC if that matters17:21
DocScrutinizer05in the end it doesn't matter if you backport 80 patches into KP57 or forward port 150 Nokia patches and rollbacks to linus kernel 3.1117:21
DocScrutinizer05the result in the end should be identical17:21
freemangordonsure17:22
freemangordonthe easy way is to use KP :)17:22
*** sixwheeledbeast has joined #maemo-ssu17:22
freemangordonbut we rather keep that as a fallback17:23
DocScrutinizer05I strongly support any such project you're doing. It helps us acquire better knowledge about our kernel17:23
DocScrutinizer05and in the end both approaches will result in same final "product"17:23
DocScrutinizer05when done correctly and comprehensive17:24
freemangordonsure, but having upstream kernel working is preferable imo17:24
freemangordonwe can use it for other distros as well17:24
DocScrutinizer05as already explained. The 100% finalized result is identical for both approaches. It's the different flaws you get for 99% finalized versions that makes the difference17:25
DocScrutinizer05for the KP approach you will miss functions or see broken functions that are new to 3.11. For the linus branch aproach you will see flawed power management17:26
DocScrutinizer05after fixing those flaws, both end results are 100% identical17:27
DocScrutinizer05you definitely can use stock maemo kernel for other distros as well. See easydeb17:30
DocScrutinizer05the question is what's the effort to port any such kernel to other hw platforms17:30
DocScrutinizer05and keep it up to date17:30
DocScrutinizer05for both the linusbranch approach has clear advantages17:31
DocScrutinizer05for maemo stability at large, the KP approach is clearly the better one17:31
DocScrutinizer05I'm just a tiny bit worried that users might think this project is closely related to CSSU which clearly it isn't and shouldn't17:33
DocScrutinizer05we maybe need to mint a new term, like e.g. CSSU-Factory17:34
DocScrutinizer05or CSSU-Lab17:34
DocScrutinizer05would make a nice home for FPTF as well17:35
DocScrutinizer05in the end Neo900 maemo will be a "new distro" no matter how binary compatible it might be for apps17:36
DocScrutinizer05CSSU-S/T clearly is NO new distro17:36
DocScrutinizer05a common misconception17:37
DocScrutinizer05introducing a new noticeably different (on API/revision level) kernel pretty much qualifies for "new distro"17:38
*** DrCode has quit IRC17:40
*** hatake_kakashi has joined #maemo-ssu17:40
freemangordonPali: hmm, sri's driver makes no difference :(17:46
DocScrutinizer05maybe you want to check e.g SHR, it has working BB5 modem on N90017:47
DocScrutinizer05ask dos117:47
freemangordonany link to kernel tree?17:47
freemangordonok17:47
Sicelowho's sri?17:47
DocScrutinizer05sre17:48
Sicelook.17:48
Palisre = Sebastian Reichel17:48
Paliworking with debian on n90017:48
*** DrCode has joined #maemo-ssu17:48
freemangordonhmm, he is not on #debian17:48
Sicelohe's not done with the modem driver yet.17:48
Siceloquickest way to get him is Jabber17:49
DocScrutinizer05~shr17:49
infoboti heard shr is The Stable Hybrid Release (SHR), intended to be a community driven distribution composed of the FSO and some basic applications, that can be configured to use several different graphical toolkits, for example GTK or EFL. SHR is based on the FSO build. At first, SHR was introduced in order to use the Openmoko2007.2 GTK software in combination with the new FSO, but things have changed.17:49
Sicelodunno why, but he's been mia on IRC for a while now17:49
Palifreemangordon: sre has wireshark plugin for isi: http://sre.ring0.de/17:49
Palimaybe it can be used for debugging17:50
freemangordonPali: we are far from this ste, the modem seems to be either powered off or with no clk17:50
freemangordon*step17:50
Sicelothat's why he needed a serial adapter :P17:51
DocScrutinizer05http://shr-project.org/trac17:51
freemangordonJan  1 06:22:38 Nokia-N900 kernel: [   21.256744] SSI protocol aka McSAAB added17:51
freemangordonJan  1 06:22:38 Nokia-N900 kernel: [   21.291198] cmt_speech cmt_speech: hsi_client_probe17:51
freemangordonJan  1 06:22:38 Nokia-N900 kernel: [   21.331665] ssi_protocol ssi_protocol: Configuring SSI port17:51
Palifreemangordon: look at sre kernel tree: http://sre.ring0.de/linux/17:51
freemangordonJan  1 06:22:38 Nokia-N900 kernel: [   21.331787] ssi_protocol ssi_protocol: Issuing BOOT INFO REQ command17:51
freemangordonJan  1 06:22:38 Nokia-N900 kernel: [   21.331817] hsi_async 34617:51
freemangordonJan  1 06:22:38 Nokia-N900 kernel: [   21.337951] ssi_protocol ssi_protocol: Issuing RX command17:51
freemangordonJan  1 06:22:38 Nokia-N900 kernel: [   21.337982] hsi_async 34617:51
DocScrutinizer05Pali: II have ISI plugin for wireshark ;-)17:51
freemangordonPali: and ^^^ is all I have, modem does not respond to "BOOT INFO REQ"17:52
DocScrutinizer05http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1022444#post102244417:53
DocScrutinizer05;-D17:53
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: NB the cmt_speech is a upper layer that uses a virtual channel in the low level ISI interface to BB517:56
DocScrutinizer05before even bothering about cmt_speech, you should get basic communication to BB5 working17:56
freemangordon:nod:17:56
DocScrutinizer05ISI is a bitch17:57
Palifreemangordon: https://elektranox.org/n900/contact.html17:57
DocScrutinizer05iirc you need a quite complicated strictly defined sequence of actions to crank it up17:58
DocScrutinizer05worse than e.g. USB17:58
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yep, by using gpio pins17:59
DocScrutinizer05not only, that's actually not even ISI17:59
DocScrutinizer05ISI is a "network protocol"17:59
dos1SHR on N900 is using 2.6.3717:59
DocScrutinizer05similar to TCP/IP17:59
freemangordonto power the modem up that is17:59
dos1recipe is named "linux-nokia900-meego"17:59
freemangordondos1: oh, pretty old I'd say :)17:59
dos1yup18:00
freemangordonmodem was working there18:00
dos1development pretty much stalled after some initial work18:00
dos1so it probably won't be useful18:00
Palifreemangordon: he is probably under irc name elektranox18:01
DocScrutinizer05it's at least nit like "power up cmt, send AT, receive OK"18:01
DocScrutinizer05not*18:01
DocScrutinizer05you need to *establish* the connection18:01
freemangordonPali: hmm, lemme try to reach him18:01
Sicelohis nick was just 'sre' when he was still available. xmpp is the quickest way as mentioned above18:02
DocScrutinizer05>SSI protocol aka McSAAB added<  and immediately then >cmt_speech cmt_speech: hsi_client_probe< looks completely odd and fishy anyway18:02
DocScrutinizer05cmt_speech CANNOT work immediately after adding the low level PHY driver18:03
freemangordonyep, seems like function calls were wrong18:03
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: though that should not prevent from communication with the modem18:04
Palilook at /msg NickServ info elektranox18:07
Siceloah, freenode.. :)18:08
freemangordon /msg NickServ info elektranox18:08
Siceloi used to find him on OFTC18:09
Palireally above is his irc freenode nick18:09
freemangordon:nod:18:09
Paliuse xmpp or email18:09
Palinow he is offline18:09
Siceloon xmpp he's right now online, but marked DND. around UTC 1800, he's usually online18:10
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: cmt_speech is similar to a USB soundcard driver.  HSI is similar to PCI where a NIC is plugged in. ISI is similar to the TCP stack, and your "soundcard" you want to talk to via cmt_speech would be attached via USB-over-TCP/IP18:11
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I understand that :)18:11
DocScrutinizer05:-)18:14
freemangordonPali: http://sre.ring0.de/linux/log/?h=ssi-cleaned-dt18:14
freemangordonI guess we shall wait for that to go upstream :)18:14
DocScrutinizer05fsck DT18:15
freemangordonyeah :(18:15
DocScrutinizer05another kernel devs' brainfart, eh?18:15
Sicelobut the linux-arm ML is clearly biased towards DT now.. looks like they just dismiss anything not DT18:16
DocScrutinizer05feels like kernel devels invented a general way to describe arbitrarly shaped areas that are hw paltforms, but in RL hw platforms are not areas but 3D objects like irregular toroids etc18:17
DocScrutinizer05some might even be higher-dimensional18:18
DocScrutinizer05good luck for describing this via polygons18:19
Sicelothey'll tell you that gfx cards do that :p18:19
DocScrutinizer05they will suffer a terrible mistake then, sinc graca only produce 2D projections of the real worls18:21
DocScrutinizer05world even18:21
DocScrutinizer05a pixmap is elementarily incapable to describe 3D objects comprehensively, and likewise it seems to me DT is incapable of describing real hw platforms in a sufficiently flexible manner18:23
Siceloanyway, /me doesn't know sh*t about kernel development lol, just that i have had a chance to talk to people like sre before18:24
jonwilbah, my N900 work is getting me nowhere. Need to find something useful to do...18:25
DocScrutinizer05well, I've seen kernel concepts come and go. And I guess DT is not one of the concepts here to stay18:32
jonwilwhat exactly is DT?18:35
DocScrutinizer05just like maemo got rid of initrd, since initrd is nonsense for a highly specialized kernel meant to run on one well defined and immutable platform only18:35
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: Device Tree. a description of *all* the hardware you find on the platform, incl all its properties18:36
DocScrutinizer05drivers know sh*t about how to handle that particular platform, they look into DT to decide what to do. Basically18:37
DocScrutinizer05bbl18:37
*** Vlad_on_the_road has joined #maemo-ssu18:37
DocScrutinizer05"which powersupply to ramp up to power that WLAN module?" -> "look into DT"18:39
DocScrutinizer05"which interface to use to talk to the power supply to tell it to ramp-up?"  -> "look into DT"18:40
DocScrutinizer05aiui18:40
jonwilI can see now why its not so good for all platforms18:40
*** DrCode has quit IRC18:40
jonwilwhere its incapable of describing all the things you need to describe18:41
DocScrutinizer05it's an idiotic idea in some cases18:41
*** FlameReaper has quit IRC18:41
DocScrutinizer05yes, exactly18:41
jonwilif its idiotic, why do kernel devs want to persist with it?18:41
DocScrutinizer05because it's so... computer-scientific18:42
DocScrutinizer05BBLFRN18:42
DocScrutinizer05o/18:42
*** FlameReaper has joined #maemo-ssu18:43
jonwilIf I had a dollar for every time I heard of a programmer continuing to persist with stupid code and continuing to not accept better ways of doing things, I would probably have enough money that I wouldn't need to write code for a living and could just retire... :P18:44
*** DrCode has joined #maemo-ssu18:44
PaliDocScrutinizer05: DT is bettern then ACPI DSDT18:44
jonwilGOOD programmers will listen when someone says "I have a better way to do xyz"18:44
*** FlameReaper has quit IRC18:45
PaliACPI is undebugable and unparsable18:45
Paliand human unreadable18:45
Paliand even worse machine not executable...18:45
Paliand needs own VM18:45
Paliand acpica in kernel!18:46
Paliand thanks to MS who created proprietary extension WMI which is now used for evryething18:46
jonwilGood luck getting ACPI working unless you reverse engineer Windows and do EXACTLY what Windows does (since that's all most motherboard vendors test against)18:46
ShadowJKA lot of the bugs come from the code assuming the OS will do X, and not checking if OS did X18:46
Palithank you, rather DT18:47
ShadowJKyeah what jonwil said :)18:47
ShadowJKacpi is otherwise a cool idea, replacing BIOS roms running real mode code with a portable bytecode18:47
Paliportable bytecode? really? it is bytecode designed for x8618:48
PaliI'm not able to decompile my DSDT because it has invalid sequences...18:49
Paliand ability to patch it is not possible18:49
ShadowJKKernel patches it all the time :-)18:50
jonwilis there a better way to do the kind of stuff embedded ARM needs than DT?18:50
*** jonwil has quit IRC18:53
DocScrutinizer51FFS, queue at the voting booths :-(19:05
DocScrutinizer51~xyawn19:06
infobotgood coffee19:06
DocScrutinizer51where?19:06
DocScrutinizer05well, ACPI never *really* worked for me and my linux boxen19:22
DocScrutinizer05since ACPI is not one of the selling points you check when picking a MoBo19:23
DocScrutinizer05thus vendors do whatever shite, as long as it works with windows (like jonwil said)19:24
DocScrutinizer05industry level PCs are a tad fifferent I guess19:24
DocScrutinizer05different even19:24
*** Vlad_on_the_road has quit IRC19:38
DocScrutinizer05in the end DT and ACPI are a good thing for general purpose one-kernel-fits-all approach that is used for x86 PC. For a highly tailored-to-fit "custom" kernel designed to perform as good as possible on one particular embeeded device like N900, you better forget about any such concept all together19:41
DocScrutinizer05s/eede/edde/19:41
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: in the end DT and ACPI are a good thing for general purpose one-kernel-fits-all approach that is used for x86 PC. For a highly tailored-to-fit "custom" kernel designed to perform as good as possible on one particular embedded device like N900, you better ...19:41
DocScrutinizer05really, shoehorning a concept like ACPI (or DT?) onto a device that doesn't even have any BIOS to support the idea's founding requirements - that feels more than silly to me19:45
DocScrutinizer05"first let's ponder how to hardcode a ACPI emulator into the kernel to compensate for missing BIOS with real DSDT/ACPI tables. Then we try to figure how we can read out that crap and nevertheless *despite* of it do the right thing for our particular platform, for which we need custom patches to 50% of device drivers anyway and those patches will never make it upstream" - outright ridiculous19:50
DocScrutinizer05that's the moment when you want to "fork"19:52
DocScrutinizer05which so far every single embedded project I know of eventually did19:53
*** Vlad_on_the_road has joined #maemo-ssu19:53
DocScrutinizer05maybe they don't call it "fork"19:54
DocScrutinizer05but in the end it is. Just a highly customized kernel (and userland) that has no chances to go upstream19:54
DocScrutinizer05upstream is PC centric, and it gets more and more PC centric every day dudes like Poettering rush over it19:55
DocScrutinizer05systemd My ASS. Definitely the ideal concept for embedded19:58
* ShadowJK just setup a board with 64M ram and systemd :)20:00
DocScrutinizer05and android madness bleeding into linux recently doesn't help either20:00
DocScrutinizer05newsflash time20:00
DocScrutinizer05o/20:01
dos1what makes systemd so unsuited for embedded?20:01
DocScrutinizer05the overhead20:03
DocScrutinizer05or let me put it this way: the philosophy behind it20:03
DocScrutinizer05systemd makes /usr mandatory during *early* boot20:04
DocScrutinizer05actually it abolishes /usr20:04
DocScrutinizer05it also abolishes udev20:04
DocScrutinizer05but not to replace it by sth more lightweight20:05
DocScrutinizer05HECK, systemd *needs* d-bus last I tried to check20:06
nedkosystemd works in pair with udev20:07
DocScrutinizer05and don't get me started on d-bus20:07
dos1hehe20:07
nedko:)20:07
wmarone_AF_DBUS20:07
nedkowmarone_: it is in mainline?20:07
wmarone_Haven't looked into it in a while20:08
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: in fact systemd and udev are quite coupled. what they abolish is hal20:09
DocScrutinizer05last I checked systemd simply scooped up and abolished udev20:10
DocScrutinizer05but I know of embedded systems that opted out from udev in favour for sth more lightweight20:11
DocScrutinizer05I don't see how that goes along with systemd20:11
DocScrutinizer05I also know of embedded systems (actually a friggin lot) that don't need nor want nor have the grunt to run d-bus20:12
DocScrutinizer05and it's only a matter of time until systemd eats PA and makes that mandatory as well, as otherwise no "beep beep I'm up! Greetings, Poettering" audio on loading the kernel20:13
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: what is more lightweight but has the same functionality than udev and d-bus?20:13
DocScrutinizer05no d-bus20:14
DocScrutinizer05no udev20:14
nedkono d-bus no udev -> no features they provide20:14
DocScrutinizer05fsck the "functionality"20:14
DocScrutinizer05so WHAT?20:14
dos1but you don't always need features they provide20:14
DocScrutinizer05exactly20:14
dos1I know that SHR was using devtmpfs instead of udev for some time20:15
DocScrutinizer05yep20:15
DocScrutinizer05for example20:15
DocScrutinizer05you can even run a system on statically configured devices20:15
DocScrutinizer05and *d-bus*??? PFFF!20:16
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: no IPC? or some other IPC mechanism?20:16
DocScrutinizer05google IPC!20:16
DocScrutinizer05it's not like d-bus invented that20:17
dos1just checked, it's still using devtmpfs20:17
DocScrutinizer05nor did Poettering20:17
nedkoof course, dbus is just what is the best IPC we have on linux20:17
dos1but well, together with systemd20:17
nedkomaybe not for low resource systems though20:17
DocScrutinizer05nedko: says WHO?20:17
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: i say it20:17
dos1but dunno if it would be still possible with upgraded systemd20:17
DocScrutinizer05I'm proud to differ20:17
nedkoDocScrutinizer05: this is why i asked you what you think is better20:18
dos1dbus is the most popular IPC system20:18
DocScrutinizer05I think I wouldn't be as silly as saying "XY is *best*" - since there never is ONE _best_ thing20:18
dos1but that doesn't make it the best automatically20:18
DocScrutinizer05exactly20:18
keriodbus is a piece of crap, but it's the less shitty of the generic IPC systems20:19
kerio*least20:19
nedkoof course, there are use cases when you don't event want linux20:19
keriobut, especially on an embedded system, why do you need a generic ipc system?20:20
DocScrutinizer05and there are situations where I don't want to continue such discussions20:20
nedkoi think the level of functionality/features maemo5 provides demands the features provided by dbus20:20
DocScrutinizer05who said "maemo"?20:21
nedkomaybe this is not embedded enough20:21
DocScrutinizer05do we have systemd on maemo? NO WE DONT and I'm pretty happy about that20:21
nedkomaemo is always implicit in this channel, no? :)20:21
kerioactually, even a lot less embedded20:21
kerioon a fucking server20:21
keriowhy would i want dbus?20:21
DocScrutinizer05indeed20:21
kerioor pulseaudio20:22
DocScrutinizer05because damn Poettering thinks you mustn't have login without accessability and I18n support20:22
DocScrutinizer05you MUST NOT20:23
DocScrutinizer05or you're free to use... _not_ linux20:23
dos1well, i'm using systemd on my pc; but each time when i remind myself that the same person who's responsible for it did pulseaudio, I think I might want to reconsider it ;]20:23
nedkoi dont want to troll you but you sound like a datenwolf... :]20:23
nedkoi dislike pulseaudio but i like systemd20:24
DocScrutinizer05excuse me for not even googling the term, couldn't care less. please refrain from explaining it to me20:24
nedkoit is a good thing for a dynamic system20:24
DocScrutinizer05maybe the concept is a good one, the implementation is abysmal and unbearable20:25
DocScrutinizer05so is the attitude driving it onto us20:26
nedkoit is open source...20:26
DocScrutinizer05go away with your "it's FOSS"20:26
nedkowe are free to implement it better or improve it20:26
dos1we are free to not use it20:27
DocScrutinizer05which is the only alternative20:27
nedkodos1: this too :)20:27
DocScrutinizer05you WLL NOTimprove the fucked up API20:28
DocScrutinizer05you WILL NOT remove the d-bus dependencies20:28
DocScrutinizer05it's like claiming "the plans for the hoover dam are public, you're free to improve them"20:29
nedkoo.020:29
DocScrutinizer05improving systemd means abolishing it and replacing it by something now (or old)20:30
nedkodo you mean we don't have the resource to change the direction coprorate open source is pushing to?20:30
DocScrutinizer05just like Poettering did with ALSA, though ALSA was easy to improve and add the allegedly missing capabilities PA was meant to deliver but failed *epically*20:31
nedkoPA actually relies on ALSA20:31
DocScrutinizer05s/sth now/sth new/20:31
nedkoin some aspect, PA extends ALSA20:32
nedkoit doesnt abolish ALSA20:32
DocScrutinizer05nedko: believe me *I* know that20:32
DocScrutinizer05and no, it only depends on ALSA soundcard implementations20:32
DocScrutinizer05since Poettering boggled from that part20:33
nedkonot really but i'm not going to argue on this20:33
nedkoat least not here20:33
DocScrutinizer05anyway, I'm out. This discussion is futile20:33
* thedead1440 wonders if poettering ever made it into any of the #maemo* chans; he would certainly be delighted :p20:50
nedkothedead1440: this [pa/systemd/udev thing] is hardly news20:54
nedkoi was hit by it more than 5 years ago20:54
nedkolennart probably earlier20:54
*** LauRoman has joined #maemo-ssu20:56
*** nox- has joined #maemo-ssu20:57
*** Milhouse has joined #maemo-ssu21:03
*** sailus has quit IRC21:42
*** bsdmaniak has quit IRC21:49
PaliPA using kernel ALSA22:10
Palibecause kernel ALSA is maybe only interface for kernel audio drivers (OSS in linux kernel is dead?)22:10
nedkoapp -> alsa (API) -> PA -> alsa (API) -> kernel22:29
nedkothat said, alsa is overengeneered too :)22:29
*** arcean_ has joined #maemo-ssu22:32
DocScrutinizer05"alsa (API)" is a pretty crappy compatibility layer22:38
DocScrutinizer05the left one22:38
DocScrutinizer05the right one is basically not existing, just "hw:0.0" soundcard ALSA kernel driver22:39
keriokernel -> audio card is probably a lot more interesting23:01
kerioand we're lucky that it's too low level for lennart23:01
kerioor he would've fucked that up too23:01
*** arcean_ has quit IRC23:06
DocScrutinizer05ack23:27
*** Vlad_on_the_road has quit IRC23:33
*** freemangordon_ has joined #maemo-ssu23:55
*** freemangordon has quit IRC23:55

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!