IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Thursday, 2013-09-12

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freemangordonPali: hi, it looks as I was able to port back camera to clock framework, where is that "new" firmware I need?09:48
Palifreemangordon: https://gitorious.org/omap3camera/camera-firmware09:49
Palilast git commit09:49
freemangordonthanks09:49
Paliprevious git commit is 2.6.28 version09:49
Palibtw it is not firmware, but kernel C structure with some data09:49
Paliand maybe it could be good idea to include these data directly to driver :-)09:50
Pali(if driver start working)09:50
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freemangordonyeah09:50
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chem|stfreemangordon: I actually wanted to talk with you what we can do about the gap between them12:29
chem|stthere are several things that, if we keep "freedom of choice", will never make it to cssu-s as noone ever cares about implementing a choice12:30
chem|stlike camera and stuff12:30
freemangordonchem|st: sure, but at least the sruff that doesn't restrict that "freedom of choice" (and considered stable) could be upgraded12:31
freemangordonstuff even12:31
chem|stpeople using stable ask about stuff in testing and end up installing testing as I can only tell it wont make it in the near future12:31
chem|styeah I need to put a new stable together in the next weeks with the stuff we have but we need to think about the general setup of cssu12:32
freemangordonchem|st: and honestly, maybe I am not the exact person to discuss "freedom of choice" with, as I see the whole CSSU as a relaxed continuation of Nokia's policy12:32
chem|stfreemangordon: I would just put testing to stable at some point12:33
freemangordon:nod:12:33
chem|stlike now12:33
freemangordonchem|st: nnah12:33
chem|sthehe12:33
freemangordonthere are stuff in -T which is not stable enough afaik12:33
chem|stI mean the last known good12:34
freemangordonchem|st: but srsly, both you and merlin1991 should agree about the policy re nicocam and such. I know this was agreed about 2 years ago (additional repos, etc) but so far nothing done12:35
chem|sthe is ok with me putting it just into stable... I have to live with the fingers pointed and the people crying12:36
freemangordonand I don;t see anyone workong on that12:36
freemangordonchem|st: I am fine with that, not to say i think this is the right thing to do12:36
chem|sthow many are working on cssu?12:36
chem|st...12:37
freemangordonme, Pali, luf, arcean. and _ade_ works on adeclock, but this is still not in cssu12:37
freemangordonI hope I don;t miss someone :)12:37
Paliit is in cssu-devel :-)12:38
freemangordonPali: yeah :)12:39
freemangordonchem|st: anyway, something should be done, esp in light of neo90012:39
chem|stwas a rethorical question....12:40
freemangordonwe didn;t discuss it with Pali, but my impression is that both of us aim CSSU as being the fremantle distribution to be used on neo90012:40
freemangordonchem|st: ooh :)12:40
freemangordonanyway, I counted them :D12:40
chem|st~512:40
freemangordonor less, as arcean is focused more or less on h-d12:41
freemangordonPali: is my impression correct?12:41
Paliwhy not?12:42
freemangordon:nod:12:42
freemangordonanyway, gtg12:45
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oooaaaooohi guys what is the default root password on the n90014:44
oooaaaooofor su access14:44
DocScrutinizer05((<chem|st> people using stable ask about stuff in testing and end up installing testing as I can only tell it wont make it in the near future)) aren't cssu-s users free to apt-get install anything from cssu-t they want?14:44
DocScrutinizer05if they're not than we have an elementary problem which needs to get solved14:45
DocScrutinizer05s/than/then/14:45
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: if they're not then we have an elementary problem which needs to get solved14:45
Palioooaaaooo: rootme14:46
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: there BEEN NO "additional repos" involved in what merlin1991 and me introduced 2 years ago to solve the "freedom of choice" issue. It's a simple problem of packaging14:47
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DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: nope, there is no default password14:47
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PaliDocScrutinizer05: look at /etc/shadow after flashing PR1.314:48
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: you install rootsh and then use command "root" to gain root permissions14:48
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jonwilDocScrutinizer05: ping14:48
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oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: so i dont need to su dpkg ?14:49
Palioooaaaooo: if you do not have R&D mode enabled, you need to install rootsh package via Application Manager14:49
oooaaaoooPali: thanks14:49
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: for dpkg and apt-get etc you gain root shell via cmd "root"14:49
Palibut for it you need to install rootsh first14:50
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: "su" is "broken" on maemo, thanks busybox14:50
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: ok good to know14:50
Palisu is symlink to busybox, and symlinks do not have setuid bit14:50
Paliso su working only if you start it as root :-)14:51
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: so - install rootsh via HAM, then use cmd "root" to gain a root shell14:51
jonwilso guys, do you think wiki.maemo.org is the best place for Neo900 software things or is there a better place for it? Specifically, stuff about which binary packages we can reuse and which binary packages we need to do something different with as well as the dbus stuff for the cellular services daemon stuff14:51
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: pong14:51
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: that's not exactly about Neo900, it's about fremantle porting, and that clearly goes to wiki.m.o14:52
jonwilIts about "14:52
jonwilits about "porting Fremantle to things based on some hardware assumptions about the Neo900"14:53
DocScrutinizer05:nod:14:53
DocScrutinizer05wiki.m.o perfect location for this14:53
jonwilI will create http://wiki.maemo.org/Cellular_Services_Daemon for the CSD and CSD dbus stuff14:53
DocScrutinizer05please consider creating a category "porting/"14:54
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jonwilok, makes sense14:55
DocScrutinizer05wiki admins have power to clean up by moving pages around, but better start in right location right away14:55
jonwilAlso do we know about audio hardware on Neo900? Will it use N900 sound chip? N900 speakers?14:56
jonwilor will it use the same hardware as GTA04 for that?14:56
DocScrutinizer05documenting existing dbus calls is clearly a general maemo topic, thus your location as suggested by you is fine for that. Considerations about how much we need to reimplement are not of any interest to the general maemo developer and thus should go to a category "porting/CSD"14:57
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DocScrutinizer05jonwil: audio is the most annoying subject in Neo900, and not yet finalized. But most definitely will _not_ use identical chipset like N90014:58
jonwilok14:58
DocScrutinizer05possibly it's completely different to N90014:58
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DocScrutinizer05except speakers themselves14:58
DocScrutinizer05;-)14:59
DocScrutinizer05we're still about to wonder why the heck nobody else (pandora, N900... etc) used twl4030 audio function blocks14:59
FatPhilPeter Ujfalusi once gave a presentation on the functionality of the TI sound core. He explained that every single possible mode of operation it had was either fundamentally flawed by design, or just plain buggy.14:59
oooaaaooois maemo a rolling release distro or do i have to manually update to the most recent LTS?15:00
DocScrutinizer05aaah thanks, that explains this :-D15:00
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: basicaly maemo is NO rolling release15:00
jonwilI will create http://wiki.maemo.org/CSD for discussing the architecture of the CSD and the dbus calls15:01
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: you're supposed to use HAM to do release updates15:01
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: ok so its all in ham15:01
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: do NOT do apt-get upgrade or even dist-upgrade!15:01
FatPhilBut HAM is teh suck. :-(15:01
DocScrutinizer05sure15:01
DocScrutinizer05alas it's the only package manager that knows about Nokia's package groups they invented15:02
FatPhilits desperate attempts to remain stateless means that it is slower than swimming through treacle in january15:02
DocScrutinizer05and about repo trust levels15:02
DocScrutinizer05:nod:15:02
oooaaaooowhat does the H in HAM stand for15:02
* FatPhil uses fapman quite happily presently.15:03
DocScrutinizer05just don't use apt to do maemo release upgrades15:03
DocScrutinizer05Hildon15:03
DocScrutinizer05FatPhil: fapman is a GUI wrapper around apt15:03
DocScrutinizer05it doesn't know nor care about the nokia idiosyncrasies in repo management15:03
oooaaaoooi have app manager but dont see a HAM icon15:03
* Sicelo uses apt15:04
DocScrutinizer05Hildon "Application Manafer"15:04
DocScrutinizer05s/f/g/15:04
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: Hildon "Application Manager"15:04
DocScrutinizer05Sicelo: everybody does. Just not for everything15:04
Sicelowell, for everything with me..15:05
DocScrutinizer05there are a few packages you better use HAM for15:05
jonwilAnd I will create http://wiki.maemo.org/Porting/Closed_Packages for discussing the closed packages and what to do with them (basing the info on some assumptions about the hardware that will be different on the Neo900 vs the N900)15:05
Siceloof couse i never do 'apt-get upgrade -y' :D15:05
DocScrutinizer05like maemo OS and maemoCSSU OS upgrades15:05
DocScrutinizer05or system stuff like bootmenu or kernels15:06
DocScrutinizer05you *can* use apt for that, if you know *exactly* what you're doing15:06
DocScrutinizer05jonwil: sounds good to me15:07
oooaaaoooso is HAM the default package manager?15:09
jonwilbtw, did we say that we wont be using the same Broadcom BCM2048 Bluetooth chip as the N900? I know the WiFi chip wont be a WL1251...15:10
oooaaaooooh its just a front end15:11
Sicelooooaaaooo: default (and only) :P15:12
jonwilok, going to assume we wont be using the same bluetooth chip :)15:14
oooaaaoooSicelo: im trying to follow this http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU . So ill just launch the HAM and look for rootsh and then install backupmenu via dpkg?15:15
Siceloyes. or even backupmenu with HAM as well15:17
oooaaaoooSicelo: oh ... i knew that ! :)15:18
oooaaaoooSicelo: umm how do i search ham?15:19
oooaaaooook so i go to application manager > download > all then type in "back" and only see microfeed & web2sms15:25
oooaaaooonvm i c rootsh15:25
oooaaaooowhatbout sudser?15:26
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Siceloi think u wil regret installing that15:26
oooaaaoooSicelo: sudser?15:26
Siceloyes15:26
oooaaaoooSicelo: ummm y?15:27
oooaaaooook nvm ive downloaded it15:27
oooaaaooorootsh15:27
Sicelomaybe i'm the one that made a mistake, but it changed some of my root settings and i could never get them back afterwards15:28
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oooaaaoooSicelo: ok15:29
oooaaaoooso whats the key for " | " (pipe) on the n90015:29
oooaaaooolike if i wanted to | less15:30
SiceloFn+Ctrl.. then choose from characters15:30
oooaaaoookool15:30
oooaaaooothx'15:30
Siceloyou can remap they keeyboard though if you've brave.. and can also add extra characters onto Xterm's 'command bar' if i may call it that15:31
oooaaaooook so less isnt installed15:31
oooaaaoooso isnt man15:32
Sicelo~jr-tools15:33
infobot[jrtools] http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools15:33
Sicelooooaaaooo: i guess you're looking for that page ...15:33
oooaaaoooSicelo: oh cool bash15:37
oooaaaoooSicelo: how big's your home15:39
Siceloi think mine is 8GB.. didn't use DocScrutinizer05's way though.. because i wanted to avoid a reflash15:42
Siceloah, it's 6GB. i once had 8GB though15:43
oooaaaoooSicelo: so that link thats docs way?15:46
Siceloyup..15:47
Sicelo:P15:47
Sicelo~Docscrutinizer15:48
infoboti heard docscrutinizer is jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko15:48
DocScrutinizer05hmm?15:48
Sicelodon't worry, positive gossip :D15:48
DocScrutinizer05aah15:48
oooaaaoooso what exactly is the image being flashed?15:51
oooaaaooois that the cssu?15:51
Sicelono. there's no cssu image. you flash normal PR1.3, then upgrade to CSSU15:53
oooaaaoooSicelo: ok i have 21.2011.38 so thats PR1.3.1?15:56
oooaaaoooso i wouldnt be able to just ssh in and do the NEW-HOME size thingy?15:57
Sicelono15:57
Siceloyou must re-partition15:58
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Sicelothere's a detailed wiki page about how you do that (which is what i did)15:58
oooaaaoooSicelo: link?15:58
Sicelough.. /me has never been good with bookmarks.. let me look for it15:59
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oooaaaoooSicelo: thanks man16:00
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Sicelohttp://wiki.maemo.org/Repartitioning_the_flash16:01
oooaaaoooSicelo: i wonder if in storage mode gparted picks it up?16:01
oooaaaoooahh16:04
oooaaaooo:)16:04
oooaaaooook so i need to install backup menu16:07
Sicelovery handy16:07
DocScrutinizer05you don't regularly need to increase the 2GB $HOME you got16:07
DocScrutinizer0599.5% of users have their 2GB /home partition at <50% usage16:08
DocScrutinizer052GB is a *lot*16:08
Sicelotrue DocScrutinizer05. i'm only using 1.4GB atm16:09
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: $User has no idea how to apt-get16:09
DocScrutinizer05well, apt-get is largely unrelated to /home anyway16:10
DocScrutinizer05unless package is optified16:10
chem|stDocScrutinizer05: talking about users installing stuff from testing when on stable16:10
DocScrutinizer05aah16:11
DocScrutinizer05that's not the point.16:11
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05:  im new to martphones(this is my first smartphone...late boomer i know) so im not really sure what i would want to install actually16:11
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: maybe a couple of emulators and some roms as well16:11
DocScrutinizer05those will indeed eat lots on /home16:12
DocScrutinizer05read:16:12
DocScrutinizer05~optification16:12
infobotoptification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3"16:12
DocScrutinizer05the first link16:12
DocScrutinizer05chem|st: the point is: when you *could* use apt-get, then there's no reason to include anything like nicocam per default, since you as well can distribute the package via .install files or any other convenient means you think is appropriate16:14
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DocScrutinizer05"click here to get CSSU cam into cssu-stable"16:15
DocScrutinizer05no new repos needed, no mandatory forced new cameraui in metapackage16:15
DocScrutinizer05fredom of choice16:15
DocScrutinizer05even a "click here to *get rid* of new cameraui and roll back to stock camera in your CSSU-S system" is just as fine16:16
DocScrutinizer05jus definitely no mandatory installation of new bits that are not technically mandatory16:17
DocScrutinizer05easy to grok that philosophy, since it's default policy in all known linux distros16:18
DocScrutinizer05except maemo16:18
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DocScrutinizer05technically mandatory bits that can't get uninstalled by CSSU users are: security fixes. essential bug fixes for bugs that would break core system functions. And any stuff that other core system functions DEPEND on the new changed API16:20
DocScrutinizer05nothing of that applies to cameraui16:21
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DocScrutinizer05so it clearly is user's call to decide if they wnat or don't want it on their system16:21
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: who is DocScrutinizer51?16:22
DocScrutinizer05my N900 client16:23
DocScrutinizer05N900 == RX5116:23
oooaaaoooo ok16:23
DocScrutinizer05at times there also been a *8 for N81016:24
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: try /whois <nickname>16:25
DocScrutinizer05and /msg nickserv info <nickname>16:26
oooaaaooocool16:26
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: so when i hook up my n900 to my pc in storage mode and it mounts as /495c-a960/dcim, where is that in the N900?16:27
SiceloCamera :D16:27
DocScrutinizer05usually in /home/user/MyDocs/DCIM16:27
DocScrutinizer05or on uSD16:27
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: ok  lemme see16:28
DocScrutinizer05which is err /media/card/.... iirc16:28
Sicelo/media/mmc116:28
DocScrutinizer05ok16:28
Sicelothe one in MyDocs is called Camera in stock File Manager16:29
DocScrutinizer05yep, it has this insane hiding_the_real_name thing16:29
oooaaaoooi just copied backupmenu to /dcim on my pc but it isnt in /home/user/MyDocs/DCIM16:30
DocScrutinizer05which confuses the hell outa noobs and experienced users alike16:30
DocScrutinizer05it's in MyDocs/dcim I guess16:31
Sicelohmm,16:31
DocScrutinizer05you might notice UpperCase/lowercase issues on linux, that you're not used to on windows16:31
oooaaaoooim on linux16:32
DocScrutinizer05:nod: thus I said "it's in MyDocs/dcim I guess"16:32
DocScrutinizer05"...not in DCIM"16:32
DocScrutinizer05you usually wouldn't want to copy sth like "backupmenu" to DCIM anyway16:33
oooaaaooo/dev/sdb on /media/495C-A960  thats what mount says16:33
DocScrutinizer05it's no photo16:33
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: ok lol, parent directory then?16:34
DocScrutinizer05better idea16:34
DocScrutinizer05actually installing .dpkg (which is what I guess you're about to do, for whatever reason) is pretty simple on N900: click on the .dpk URL in webbrowser, it asks you whether to open or download. Do download. Then use filemanager to navigate to the download location which happens to be somewhere on MyDocs, and click the downloaded .dpkg which installs it16:37
DocScrutinizer05no shell needed at all, no dpkg -i cmdline or anything16:38
SiceloDocScrutinizer05 has grown old :p16:38
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Sicelos/.dpkg/.deb/16:38
DocScrutinizer05yeah, old enough to know $USER16:38
DocScrutinizer05indeed16:39
DocScrutinizer05sorry16:39
DocScrutinizer05.deb16:39
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: WAIT SO I CAN INSTALL .DEB FILES USING HAM?16:39
DocScrutinizer05basically yes16:39
DocScrutinizer05via filemanager16:39
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: facepalm16:39
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: lol16:39
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: thanks16:40
DocScrutinizer05yw16:40
Siceloand of course, don't make a habit of installing .debs.. even on a real debian system you're advised to use a 'higher-level' package manager than dpkg16:40
DocScrutinizer05it *should* work even with browser only, but for unclear reasons it fails to install the .deb after downloading it, when you choose "open"16:40
DocScrutinizer05instead of "download"16:40
oooaaaoooSicelo: yeah but i couldnt find backupmenu in HAM16:42
DocScrutinizer05should be there16:42
DocScrutinizer05in extras-devel catalog16:42
oooaaaooocatalog...?16:42
DocScrutinizer05and now even in testing, iirc16:42
oooaaaooois that like a repo?16:42
DocScrutinizer05catalog == HAM's term for "repo"16:42
DocScrutinizer05yes16:43
DocScrutinizer05it *is* a repo16:43
DocScrutinizer05in HAM click menu, click "catalogs"16:43
oooaaaoooyup16:43
oooaaaoooloading it says16:43
oooaaaoooor16:44
oooaaaooosorry16:44
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oooaaaooodone16:44
oooaaaooo9i see 4 cats16:44
oooaaaoooi see 4 catalogs16:44
DocScrutinizer05one of them is "maemo extras"16:44
oooaaaooonokia x2,  ovi, maemo16:44
oooaaaooono16:44
oooaaaooomaemo.org16:44
DocScrutinizer05another one you may want is "maemo extras-devel"16:45
oooaaaoooso where are the catalog details ?16:45
oooaaaoooto manually add them16:45
oooaaaooohttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7858416:46
oooaaaooois thta it?16:46
oooaaaooolsb_release & cat /etc/*-release doesnt work ... how do i check my distro release ?16:51
oooaaaoooping17:00
jonwilThere is no concept of "distro release" on Mameo17:01
jonwilnot in the normal Linux or Debian sense anyway17:01
oooaaaooohttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=7858417:02
oooaaaooowhats this freemantle stuff17:02
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oooaaaooook so i cant install the deb ; dependencies so i should do it via HAM17:06
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: so how do i add the repos you mentioned17:08
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oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: nevermind im reading http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository17:09
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DocScrutinizer05wait17:09
DocScrutinizer05click on the link in jr_tools page17:10
DocScrutinizer05simpler17:10
DocScrutinizer05~jrtools17:10
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools17:10
DocScrutinizer05http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools#Additional_Repositories17:11
oooaaaoook so i navigate there on my n900 and just click?17:12
DocScrutinizer05yep, you click on http://joerg.cloud-7.de/repositories.install17:13
DocScrutinizer05it adds 3 catalogs, you will want to delete (or disable at very least) the extras-testing and tools catalogs17:13
DocScrutinizer05in HAM17:13
oooaaaoook17:14
DocScrutinizer05you same time can also rename the display-name to sth more convenient. Right now it's "name = Maemo Extras-DEVEL catalogue (read WARNING!)"17:15
DocScrutinizer05in HAM it will shpow up as "Maemo Extras-DEVEL catalogue (read WARNING!)"17:15
DocScrutinizer05you can edit that name to your liking17:15
DocScrutinizer05just never do an "update all" in HAM when any of those catalogs is enabled. Also never do an apt-get upgrade17:18
oooaaaooook so no updates when these extras are enabled17:18
oooaaaoooi thought apt-get was to never be used17:18
DocScrutinizer05you can use apt-get install, for stuff like less or binutils-gnu or the like.17:19
oooaaaooook17:19
oooaaaoooout of curiosity, is aptitude available?17:20
DocScrutinizer05you just shouldn't use it for anything that sounds like maemo specific17:20
oooaaaooooh ok17:20
DocScrutinizer05afaik it is17:20
oooaaaooook17:20
oooaaaooohmmm17:21
oooaaaooothat update thing17:21
oooaaaoooi think my ham is set to auto update17:21
DocScrutinizer05as a rule of thumb: when it's a "normal" debian package then you can use apt-get install to both install as well as update the package17:21
oooaaaooook17:21
DocScrutinizer05yes, ham usually checks once per day for upgrades available. But it asks you if they should get installed. Just answer "No! Ignore!"17:22
oooaaaooowhere HAM says checking for updates17:22
oooaaaooook17:22
oooaaaooothis is everytime i load HAM17:22
oooaaaoooits annoying17:23
DocScrutinizer05that's why you disable the extras-devel catalog17:23
DocScrutinizer05after you installed the package you're interested in17:23
oooaaaoooi dont know if i was successful in adding the repos17:23
oooaaaooooh wait17:24
oooaaaoooi c it17:24
oooaaaooothem17:24
DocScrutinizer05with extras-devel disabled, HAM won't upgrade any packages from extras-devel and only show upgrades available in the "good" repos17:24
DocScrutinizer05all upgrades from "good" repos are safe to install17:25
DocScrutinizer05actually recommended to install17:25
DocScrutinizer05avoid upgrades of any packages that come from "non-good" repos like extras-devel17:26
oooaaaooook so enable devel extras , look for backup menu then can disable17:26
DocScrutinizer05this is why you disable the extras-devel repo17:26
oooaaaooook17:26
DocScrutinizer05yes, exactly17:26
oooaaaoooumm is there a quick and easy way for stock n900 to be tethered to my pc's eth017:26
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: hmm, why this is not in extras?17:27
oooaaaooovia usb17:27
DocScrutinizer05dunno, is it?17:27
freemangordonwhat is tha package name?17:27
DocScrutinizer05afaik it has unmet dependencies17:27
DocScrutinizer05e.g to i2ctools17:27
DocScrutinizer05for charging17:28
freemangordonah, I see17:28
DocScrutinizer05we might promote i2ctools to extras (hidden)17:28
DocScrutinizer05to allow BM to promote to extras17:29
DocScrutinizer05aiui HAM wil not show i2ctools when it's not a user package17:29
DocScrutinizer05I don't care a lot about fapman users accidentally installing i2ctools from extras repo17:30
oooaaaoooyeah i still dont see backupmenu....17:32
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: since that's depending a lot on the particular OS you run on your PC, there's no good general instruction for it17:33
DocScrutinizer05oooaaaooo: wait a minute, I'll check that friggin BM thing, it lately seen some mess-up17:34
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: ok, thnx17:34
DocScrutinizer05a scray sight what HAM thinks about availability of stock core repos17:36
freemangordonPali: http://pastebin.com/i5CJWWzq :D17:37
DocScrutinizer05"checking updates" takes ages (like 5 min) after enabling extras-devel17:38
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: i kept stopping the updates...is that why?17:38
DocScrutinizer05yes17:38
freemangordonPali: both drivers loaded, with clock framework, lets see if back camera works17:38
DocScrutinizer05you mustn't stop updates17:38
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: ok so all i did was add the repo addresses when i clicked on that link17:39
DocScrutinizer05yes17:39
freemangordonPali: - entity 16: et8ek8 3-003e (1 pad, 1 link)17:40
freemangordontype V4L2 subdev subtype Unknown flags 017:40
freemangordondevice node name /dev/v4l-subdev817:40
freemangordonpad0: Source17:40
DocScrutinizer05now go to HAM, and wait for it to finish "checking for updates"17:40
freemangordon[fmt:SGRBG10_DPCM8/2592x1968]17:40
freemangordon-> "OMAP3 ISP CCP2":0 []17:40
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: yup17:40
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: doing it now17:41
DocScrutinizer05will take ages17:41
oooaaaoooDocScrutinizer05: ok well ill just have to continue it tomorrow. THanks alot for the help17:41
DocScrutinizer05after that, you see "backupmenu" under "install new"17:41
oooaaaooowhats install new17:41
oooaaaooois that an icon17:42
DocScrutinizer05backupmenu 1.2.0-217:42
oooaaaooook, i should be able to search it via "all"17:42
oooaaaoooright17:42
DocScrutinizer05it's one of the three choices in HAM main screen17:42
DocScrutinizer05actually the middle one17:42
DocScrutinizer05right side is "updates", left side is "installed apps"17:43
DocScrutinizer05middle is "install new"17:43
DocScrutinizer05or "download new" or whatever17:43
oooaaaooook will figure it out tomorrow17:44
oooaaaoooim off to bed17:44
oooaaaooothanks alot guys17:44
DocScrutinizer05in German it's "Deinstallieren"   "Herunterladen"   "Aktualisieren"17:44
oooaaaooo(y)17:44
DocScrutinizer05pick the middle one, go to menu, click "update" (upper left menu item), then search for "backupmenu"17:45
freemangordonPali: ok, back camera is green too, seems it is something in omap3isp :(17:45
Paliah :-(17:46
DocScrutinizer05cam drivers are icky to maintain17:46
Palidid you tried to contact sakari? maybe he will know where is problem...17:47
DocScrutinizer05N900 is special since it has that mux17:47
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: I know17:47
DocScrutinizer05k17:48
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: and the camera drivers code is just fine17:48
freemangordonPali: no, I wanted to first try main camera too, to see if the problem is in camera driver or in omap3isp driver17:48
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: funny thing is that upstream kernel does not support more than one camera connetced to one and the same clk :D17:49
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: make sure you load/initialize any kernel cam driver module *after* you checked and switched mux17:49
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yep, init code is fine17:49
DocScrutinizer05that's the systematic problem with upstream drivers I guess17:49
freemangordon:nod:17:49
freemangordonPali: I will contact sakari17:50
DocScrutinizer05they do init on mod load, and mod load is done only once. Then you switch mux and everything goes boom instantly17:50
freemangordonand we'll have to upstream a couple of patches :D17:50
Palifreemangordon: CC mail to me17:51
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: no,no, drivers are loaded just fine, they talk with camera modules, etc17:51
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: it is just that all I see is a green square in mplayer17:51
DocScrutinizer05and no mux xswitching after they got loaded and did init?17:51
freemangordonrectangle even17:51
freemangordonxshutdown is controlled17:51
freemangordonso there is mux switch17:52
freemangordonit is done in board code, via callbacks17:52
DocScrutinizer05as soon as you switch the mux, both cam-modules/chips are no more initialized17:52
DocScrutinizer05you first need to switch mux, then power up the cam and load the driver which runs init17:53
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yes, board init code disables reset17:53
DocScrutinizer05Nokia drivers are taking care of all that I guess17:53
DocScrutinizer05disable reset - niiiiice17:53
DocScrutinizer05:-S17:53
freemangordonit seems upstream does it as well17:54
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: why?17:54
freemangordondisable reset->xshutdown up->power up->init17:54
DocScrutinizer05I'd think you need to reste the camchip after switching mux, to get it into shape again17:54
DocScrutinizer05then redo chip init which usually is done in driver-load init17:55
freemangordonbefore streaming is enabled, camera is fed with the needed values for resolution, etc17:55
freemangordonI see no problem on that part17:55
freemangordonand because both camers behave exactly in the same way, I bet it is isp code to blame17:56
DocScrutinizer05when cam is powered and you switch mux, the chip is in undefined state and never recovers from that until you powercycle and reset it17:56
freemangordonI already found (and fixed) a bug in it. It has naver been tested on 3430 only on 363017:56
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: this is done, np there17:56
DocScrutinizer05ok then17:56
DocScrutinizer05I never looked into the drivers17:57
DocScrutinizer05just thought I reiterate about the basics17:57
freemangordonit is a can of worms :( with really bad design IMO17:57
freemangordonok17:57
freemangordon(as I already explained) you can't have more than one device connected to cam_xclka (or cam_xclkb), neither you can use xshutdown gpio for anything alse but xshutdown17:58
freemangordonlike mux for example :)18:00
DocScrutinizer05yeah18:00
DocScrutinizer05thought as much18:00
DocScrutinizer05incompatible design schemes18:00
DocScrutinizer05the probelm with a "one kernel for all" approach18:01
DocScrutinizer05and in the end what killed power management on all "strictly upstream only" embedded projects18:01
freemangordon:nod:18:02
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DocScrutinizer05you say "we need to postpone init of B after wit had a chance to switch A". Upstream says "you can't do that! layering violation"18:06
DocScrutinizer05s/wit/we/18:06
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: you say "we need to postpone init of B after we had a chance to switch A". Upstream says "you can't do that! layering violation"18:06
DocScrutinizer05in the end the kernel devels claim that real hardware doesn't meet the requirements ;-P18:07
freemangordonyeah :D18:07
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DocScrutinizer05"the CPU has to be up before you can run init for the power regulators! there's no way to do it any other way, our software paradigms allow any violations of this dependency"18:09
DocScrutinizer05dont* allow18:10
DocScrutinizer05or make "CPU " rather "I2C" ;-P18:10
freemangordonhttp://www.kasperskyasia.com/images/alliances/xplogo.gif :P18:11
DocScrutinizer05"you can't run init of the PSU at this time, we haven't initialized I2C yet!"18:11
Sicelowhy are we doing camera drivers btw?18:11
freemangordonSicelo: linux 3.1018:12
Siceloaha18:12
DocScrutinizer05"you can't initialize I2C unless you powered it up!"18:12
freemangordonand up18:12
DocScrutinizer05"you can't power up I2C before you intitalized PSU!"18:12
Siceloi saw they are forcing also to have N900 on DT.. how much work is that?18:13
DocScrutinizer05always *a lot* of fun to discuss this stuff with kerenl devs18:13
freemangordonSicelo: most probably wont fly, see the cameras example ^^^18:13
Sicelodang18:14
DocScrutinizer05there's a reason Nokia came up with a maemo-N900 kernel, and not simply using upstream18:14
Sicelosebastian reichel was also working on the modem, and was also told DT.18:15
DocScrutinizer05seen that several times now - in the end some mandatory tweaks/hacks to make your platform fly will never get accepted upstream18:15
freemangordonmodem *might* be possible18:15
Sicelohe did sound optimistic on the ML, yes18:16
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DocScrutinizer05evetually you go "screw dat! I fork!"18:16
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* freemangordon wonders what we will do with 170mA current on idle with 3.1018:17
DocScrutinizer05...and have a chance to end with a *working* kernel, though not upstream18:17
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: live with it?18:17
freemangordonhehe18:17
freemangordonno way, I'll just stay with kp18:18
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DocScrutinizer05dang, thursday already18:19
Sicelofreemangordon: how is kp able to do it, and what stops that woking on 3.x?18:19
DocScrutinizer05see above18:20
DocScrutinizer05it's Nokia's kernel patches that do the magic18:20
DocScrutinizer05and they will never go mailine18:20
DocScrutinizer05main line even18:20
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DocScrutinizer05aka upstream18:20
Sicelobut they are not closed-source?18:20
DocScrutinizer05not afaik18:21
DocScrutinizer05just "dirty"18:21
DocScrutinizer05kernel has no closed blobs18:21
DocScrutinizer05it however may have some missing parts in maemo that are emulated with userland blob.so18:21
freemangordonSicelo: nothing closed-source in the kernel, patches just doesn't "fit" in what upstream maintainters think is the right kernel structure18:22
DocScrutinizer05powervr18:22
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DocScrutinizer05bme18:22
DocScrutinizer05a lot of stuff actually18:22
freemangordoncmt18:23
DocScrutinizer05:nod:18:23
freemangordongps18:23
DocScrutinizer05:nod:18:23
freemangordonI think that' s all18:23
DocScrutinizer05you *can* do all this in kernel space, but you lose the magic done in Nokia's blobs18:23
freemangordonnot for BME ;), I think we really don;t need the magic coded there :D18:24
DocScrutinizer05for the other open parts, they are just not what upstream is willing to accept since it can't go into their rule-set for how kernel source is structured18:24
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: :nod:18:25
Sicelostructuring the code to fit upstream's expectations.. too hard?18:25
DocScrutinizer05simple madeup example: Nokia: "here's our awesome acelerometer driver, saves lots of energy". Upstream: "erryeah, but it uses IRQ which are not yet initialized at that moment when the accel gets loaded, so you can't do that. We have a poll-only policy for this class of drvers, for exactly that reason"18:27
Sicelook18:27
freemangordonSicelo: see cameras example ^^^ :)18:28
freemangordonit is not hard, but impossible18:28
DocScrutinizer05hehe, exactly18:28
Siceloi understand.18:29
DocScrutinizer05put simple: when you build a kernel for your embedded, you want it to fit your hardware, not match any upstream policy18:29
SiceloNeoN900 going to be too expensive for me. might as well start getting used to S40 :p18:30
Sicelos/oN9/o9/18:30
infobotSicelo meant: Neo900 going to be too expensive for me. might as well start getting used to S40 :p18:30
freemangordonthe only option we have aiui is to upstream whatever possible and to keep the other stuff in a separate tree18:31
DocScrutinizer05"Dear Mr council" SPAAAAM!18:31
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kerioDocScrutinizer05: "poll-only policy" where?18:55
Siceloit was an example, iirc18:57
DocScrutinizer05kerio: read again! "made-up example"18:59
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freemangordonPali: oh, who wrote camera board code?22:49
PaliI think sakari22:50
freemangordonnot only there is an unprotected(by the mutex) variable in rx51_camera_set_xshutdown, but also there is a nice race while the modules get loaded :(22:51
freemangordonand also when and used later22:51
freemangordons/when and/when/22:51
infobotfreemangordon meant: and also when used later22:51
freemangordonhmm, yeah, sakari, according to the file header22:52
freemangordonPali: will push the changes and will mail him22:56
Paliok22:56
DocScrutinizer05(race) \o/23:01
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: yeah, I wonder if we have the same in 2.6.28 and if not, how did Nokia manage to fix that23:02
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ShadowJKIs this why cssucam is crashy23:02
DocScrutinizer05some races hardly ever happen, thanks to properties of scheduler. Others do, every single time23:03
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: kernel tries to power front camera up, while the back camera lens is still powered on. Ofc this is not possible and board gode returns EBUSY23:03
DocScrutinizer05e.g the race between detecting VBUS and D+/- short23:03
* ShadowJK remembers a bug report about back camera lens getting abrubtly unpowered instead of first returning lens to neutral position23:04
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freemangordonthis could happen while the devices are being initialies or when they are enumerated from userspace. this could be a bug in media-ctl as well, but I am almost sure kernel should have a tools to prevent such conditions23:05
ShadowJKin a quiet environment, you can hear the klonk of the lens violently slamming to its unpowered position23:05
freemangordonShadowJK: this is linux 3.1023:05
ShadowJKhey, does fstrim work in 3.10?23:06
freemangordon~fstrim23:06
freemangordonwtf is that?23:06
Palimaybe trim command for filesystems?23:08
ShadowJKmanually issues TRIM of free space to storage device.. Some emmc/sd cards support it, if driver stack/kernel also supports it23:08
ShadowJKYes what Pali said23:08
PaliI think that vfat in linux kernel has trim support23:09
Paliso it can be usefull for maemo mydocs23:09
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: heard that KLONK several times23:12
DocScrutinizer05pretty nasty23:14
Paliwhat it cause?23:14
Paliautofocus?23:14
DocScrutinizer05err, prolla yhwat ShadowJK said?23:14
DocScrutinizer05yep, related to autofocus23:15
Paliautofocus ad5820: Voice coil motor controller23:17
DocScrutinizer05I also still wonder if nicocam stopped displaying random bogus distance readings for autofocus. Rather - disatnce readings that are ~factor two apart from each other for shoot upwards vs shoot the floor23:17
DocScrutinizer05Pali: exactly this one. A nasty power hog as well23:17
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DocScrutinizer05*I* wonder *who* and *how* *does* autofocus23:18
ShadowJKheh, gravity pulling the lens?23:18
DocScrutinizer05ShadowJK: exactly23:18
DocScrutinizer05changing distance of 50cm to 30 or 9023:19
PaliDocScrutinizer05: I bet that proprietary nokia daemon omap3camd23:19
DocScrutinizer05yup, likely23:19
freemangordonI bet on that one too23:19
DocScrutinizer05must have some nasty math23:20
DocScrutinizer05to check if focused or not23:20
DocScrutinizer05FFT23:20
Paliwhy nokia not used opencv or libv4l2 libraries for that?23:21
DocScrutinizer05dunno23:21
Palibut rather created own daemon?23:21
Paliwhich we cannot fix?23:21
DocScrutinizer05there's for sure more "magic", like compensating for aberrations of cam, etc23:22
Palithese algorithms are well-known and already implemented in open source libraries for image processing...23:22
DocScrutinizer05that knowhow comes by courtesy cam module manuf, and is proprietary23:22
Sicelowere they good at that time?23:22
kerioisn't fcam free?23:23
DocScrutinizer05I think it is23:23
Palihttp://fcam.garage.maemo.org/23:23
DocScrutinizer05but afaik fcam only adding a few calls they missed to implement into stock driver23:24
freemangordonPali: pushed23:25
Paliok23:25
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Palifreemangordon: can you backport also commit a354177f058541b7212230feb2c0da7c464e9b9d?23:27
Paliso there will not be problem after migrating to 3.11 (or 3.12)?23:28
freemangordonok, but I'll first email sakari about the grass I have when taking pictures :D23:29
Paliok :-)23:29
PaliCC mail to me23:29
freemangordonััƒั€ะต23:29
freemangordonsure23:29
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freemangordonPali: hmm, wonder what subject to use for the mail23:56
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Palihelp with n900 camera :-)23:56
freemangordonok :)23:56
freemangordonPali: are you sure?23:57

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