IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Thursday, 2012-11-22

kerioanyway, weird idea: add /var/lib/apt, /var/cache/apt, /var/cache/dpkg to maemo-optify-whatever.conf00:10
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freemangordonmerlin1991: would you ask on TMO, mailing list or wherever you like for help? For tklock that is.10:03
merlin1991freemangordon: will do later on today10:04
freemangordonok, thanks10:04
freemangordonI am going to fire valgrind agains alarmui replacement. BTW systui power key meny leaks too :(10:05
freemangordon*menu10:05
lufIsn't some problem in the valgrind you're using?10:06
freemangordonluf: unfortunately no10:06
freemangordonwe had the same leak in alarmui10:06
freemangordonjust a minute10:06
freemangordonluf: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1294928&postcount=4810:07
lufOk. It was just a question :) I can't believe they didn't check so basic things ...10:07
freemangordonthisis not exactly basic, but still10:07
lufpower key menu isn't basic? Come on ... I'm using it a lot ...10:09
lufIt's basic part from my point of view. Some game or whatever application isn't but this ...10:09
freemangordonluf: aah, sorry, misunderstood you10:12
freemangordonI thought you mean that unrefing PangoFontMetrics is basic :D10:13
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lufI think that no mem leaks in basic maemo is have to not nice to have ;)10:16
freemangordonluf: cannot parse ^^^ :P10:17
luffreemangordon: I can write it in czech too :D10:19
freemangordon:D10:19
lufno mem leaks in basic parts of maemo is must to have not nice to have ... I can't believe ...10:20
freemangordonaah, yeah10:20
luf**** Nokia QA10:20
freemangordondeffinitely10:20
freemangordonnot sure about that, alarmui seems like not writen by nokia, but by some third party10:21
freemangordon*written10:21
lufCome on ... they included it into maemo. It's their responsibility ... (mainly QA).10:21
freemangordonyou cannot expect QA to test for memory leaks10:22
lufWhy not? Who else is testing SW?10:22
freemangordonAt least I would not expect10:22
freemangordonit is third party QA who have to test it, Nokia have to tets the functionality10:23
freemangordonit is UAT10:23
lufBut everyone will shout on Nokia not the 3-rd party ... It's about good name of Nokia ...10:24
freemangordonsure.10:24
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lufI think that mem leaks should be tested by nokia QA for all basic parts of Maemo. (I don't know how to put this sentence into past) :D10:25
freemangordonbut is you have to test every code path for bugs, then it makes no sense to outsorce it. You'd better write it on your own10:25
freemangordonshould've been10:25
freemangordonafaik10:25
lufYou have to do UAT and what is the problem to run UAT with some memory profiler?10:26
lufOr any other technique to see if the memory consumption is constant or grow ...10:26
freemangordonbecause UAT purpose is to match "user requirements" against the final product10:27
freemangordonluf: I am not saying it is not good to be like you say10:27
freemangordonwhat I say is that in practice it is different. At least according to my experience10:28
lufYes but it's wrong mainly on devices like N900 with so few memory and everybody has to expect that it's all time running device.10:29
lufI know that amateurs like me don10:30
lufdon't have enough time/experiences with mem leak hunting but Nokia?10:30
lufWith so expensive device without BT adress book sync, voice dialing ... and a lot of other features (from my point of view basic features).10:31
freemangordonluf: my work is related with ATM SW, which is very similar in some aspects with handheld devices, so I am pretty aware of unattended devices specifics10:31
freemangordonnot that I say you are wrong10:32
freemangordonor that it is not how it should be (what you say)10:32
lufBTW can you share the newest valgrind with us? The best is package somewhere iin repositories :)10:33
lufI know I'm lazy but I don't want to reinvent wheel.10:34
freemangordonluf: repos does not work ;)10:35
freemangordonautobuilder that is10:35
lufOk. So let's upload it to _you_know_whos_server_ :D10:37
freemangordonok, will do10:37
lufThank you very much.10:37
merlin1991luf: thanks for not highlighting :)10:38
* merlin1991 always wanted to build his own autobuilder in python, maybe it's time? xD10:38
freemangordonhave in mind it still have some issues with thumb210:38
lufAre you familiar with the output enough? Sometime I see some strange warning (just from glib) and I'm unable to identify if it's a problem or where it allocate the memory. Feel free to point me to some useful docs.10:39
freemangordoni had to revert libpulse0 to ARM to be able to use it10:39
luffreemangordon: oh ooh, I still didn't have a time to switch to thumb2 ...10:39
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freemangordonluf: then you should be fine10:39
lufCan you create the package also for non-thumb2?10:40
freemangordon?10:40
freemangordonit is not for thumb210:41
freemangordonand it is not a packge :D10:41
merlin1991binary ftw10:41
luf:) I see I'm not the only one ... :) binary is enough.10:42
freemangordonhttp://merlin1991.at/~freemangordon/valgrind-3.8.1/10:42
freemangordonunpack that in /opt10:42
lufBTW even for binary it depends if you compile it with thumb2 enabled ...10:42
lufOk, thanks.10:42
freemangordonit is ARM compiled10:42
merlin1991freemangordon: what thumb, whyyyy? ;)10:43
freemangordon:)10:43
luf,,, ARM compiled - I don't know it'll run on my N900 device :D :D10:43
freemangordonBTW: http://taschenorakel.de/mathias/2012/06/20/performance-and-memory-usage-of-evolution-data-server/10:43
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freemangordonvery interesting: http://taschenorakel.de/files/eds-benchmarks/memory-usage-rss-leaking.png10:44
merlin1991somebody on #jollamobile said, that current tracker is about 10x faster than eds :D10:46
freemangordondon_falcone said it: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1295075&postcount=6210:46
freemangordonmerlin1991: tracker?10:46
merlin1991yes tracker10:46
freemangordonbut,but...10:46
freemangordonwtf has tracker in common to EDS?10:46
lufBut who is so brave to rewrite so many things in N900?10:46
freemangordons/to/with/10:47
infobotfreemangordon meant: wtf has tracker in common with EDS?10:47
merlin1991<pvanhoof>and then when intel guys tried to prove that evolution-data-server was faster, turned out we where 10x faster for their use-case10:48
merlin1991we being tracker upstream in that case10:48
freemangordonhmm, and what is "their use-case"?10:49
merlin1991he didn't elaborate :/10:49
luffreemangordon: I don't know if there is even any common. But I don't know tracker.10:50
merlin1991luf: on maemo tracker is only the media indexer10:50
merlin1991on harmattan it also is the storage for email sms and contacts10:50
luf... and the history.10:50
merlin1991and nfc what use cases upstream has implemented10:50
freemangordonaah, sms and email10:51
freemangordonmakes sense then10:51
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freemangordontklock leaks hildon_gtk_hscale_new. at least11:14
freemangordon==3877== 1,436 (384 direct, 1,052 indirect) bytes in 1 blocks are definitely lost in loss record 4,161 of 4,27411:15
freemangordon==3877==    by 0x6400253: visual_tklock_create_view_whimsy (in /usr/lib/systemui/libsystemuiplugin_tklock.so)11:16
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joshgilliesAnyone in here know whether there is a cssu-thumb-bootimg package?11:42
joshgilliesfor u-boot11:42
merlin1991sure11:47
Palihttp://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/community-thumb/pool/free/k/kernel-cssu/kernel-cssu-bootimg_2.6.28-10cssu3_armel.deb11:47
merlin1991damn Pali beat me :D11:48
joshgillies:) thanks12:00
joshgillieshad a feeling it would be that simple12:00
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DocScrutinizer05fsckng braindamaged 'idea' to use tracker for storing messages14:01
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DocScrutinizer05tbh I think even EDS is a fsckng brainfart14:04
DocScrutinizer05for local usage14:04
kolpAlso, doesn't maemo use different DB systems for e.g. messages and contacts? sqlite vs bdb, or something? What's the reason for that?14:07
DocScrutinizer05yep14:08
DocScrutinizer05reason nb knows14:09
DocScrutinizer05honestly, *nobody* has more than 5000 contacts. I'd do the fuck to use a dbms for that14:10
DocScrutinizer05even on a very slow machine you can cut thru a batch of 5000 vcards with grep in MO time14:11
DocScrutinizer05NO*14:11
kolpIs 5000 the aprox. limit where sqlite gets slower?14:12
kolp*noticably14:12
DocScrutinizer05I'd think it's by far not the break even point where sqlite or any other DBMS gets *faster* than grep14:14
DocScrutinizer05though, faster? maybe. More reasonable? dafaq, no14:14
DocScrutinizer05a DBMS will usually hog RAM all the time with cached indizes and whatnot14:15
merlin1991well sqlite ha a nicer binding interface for the data than dumping vcards to the flash and reading them yourself14:15
kolpI thought you were talking about sqlite vs bdb :)14:15
merlin1991and sqlite is slow for a reason14:15
merlin1991minimalistic cache and indizes14:15
DocScrutinizer05fsckng DBMS gives us: NO fulltext search, MAXIMUM overhead, extreme RAM hogging, pretty hard archiving/im/exporting14:18
DocScrutinizer05hell, sqlite even is a RDBMS14:19
DocScrutinizer05while contacts as oh so extremely normalizable and relational14:20
DocScrutinizer05s/as/are/14:20
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: while contacts are oh so extremely normalizable and relational14:20
kolpFulltext search depends on the smartness of the developer14:20
DocScrutinizer05in a DBMS? yes. In a linux system? KISS, use grep14:21
DocScrutinizer05I actually can see why somebody would use a (R)DBMS for media metadata (==tracker), but honestly, how often I wanna access my *contacts* in a way that would suggest a DBMS is the best/only way to implement that? And even if a DBMS would work fine for those few times, is the usecase really justifying the overhead?14:30
DocScrutinizer05I mean, for eaxmaple, when my phone starts ringing, do I really care if it take 0.1 or even 2 or 3 seconds for the avatar and name to pop up on dialer screen next to the caller's number? It takes me 3s minimum to pick the phone up and look at it anyway14:33
DocScrutinizer05on maemo we have so many speed-optimized bloated RAM-locked subsystems that constant swap hell brings the whole system to a grinding halt nevertheless. A lean simple approach probably is waaaay faster, thanks to more free RAM14:36
DocScrutinizer05honestly I think most if not all of those programmers are missing the experience of the 80s (and 90s) when CPU of a 'lightning fast' desktop PC was about 1/10 as fast as ARM CPU in N900, and the amount of RAM in N900 is more than those systems had *storage* (on HDD)14:39
DocScrutinizer05those were the times when programmers/architects (back when it was most times the same) had no problem at all to implement a contacts database with fulltext search and awesome response times in less than 100kB of RAM, and handling 5000 contacts was no problem at all and didn't hog RAM since there was none to hog14:44
Skryagreed.14:44
kolpNow, I guess the respective parts of maemo are closed, so we can't replace anything if we wanted14:47
DocScrutinizer05that's the crux14:48
DocScrutinizer05starting with dialer and contacts14:49
DocScrutinizer05"for differntiation reasons" PAH!14:49
DocScrutinizer05differentiation to the inferior, like I use to say14:50
DocScrutinizer05"look, this abysmal dialer on that phone, *has* to be a Nokia maemo phone!" ROTFL14:52
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DocScrutinizer05the truth is much of that stuff been developed by some contractor like e.g. colabora, and Nokia probably doesn't own the (C) of sourcecode so they could publish it.14:55
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merlin1991DocScrutinizer05: silly question, how do I get the owner / oper / whaterver flags(users) for a channel on freenode?15:14
DocScrutinizer05/msg chanserv access $<chan> list15:14
merlin1991thanks15:15
DocScrutinizer05yw15:15
DocScrutinizer05of course there are the 'normal' flags as well: /mode $<chan> [b|q|...]15:16
DocScrutinizer05/msg $<service> help15:18
DocScrutinizer05like in15:18
DocScrutinizer05/msg chanserv help access15:18
DocScrutinizer05/msg chanserv help flags15:19
DocScrutinizer05^^^ useful one15:19
merlin1991DocScrutinizer05: you're reaching overkill on info :D15:19
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: you've seen a [notice] of chanserv 60s ago?15:29
merlin1991nope15:30
DocScrutinizer05:-/15:30
DocScrutinizer05[2012-11-22 14:27:06] [Notice] -ChanServ- Fantasy commands are always executed as if SET VERBOSE ON is15:30
DocScrutinizer05[2012-11-22 14:27:06] [Notice] -ChanServ- in effect.15:30
DocScrutinizer05[2012-11-22 14:28:45] <-> chanserv> hoolahoola #maemo-ssu15:30
DocScrutinizer05[2012-11-22 14:28:45] [Notice] -ChanServ- Invalid command. Use /msg ChanServ help for a command listing.15:30
DocScrutinizer05freenode is a rcih field for never ending studies15:33
DocScrutinizer05probably only freenode staff knows about >90% of the possible commands (there are a *lot* of 'hidden' commands only the staffers may use, but I'm actually talking about the 'normal' ones)15:35
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: /cs info #maemo-ssu15:40
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Palimerlin1991, freemangordon, I changed shell dpkg parsing to one dpkg-query call: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/libcpaboutcssu/commit/03b5698650560b0be44f5693921937911065194717:03
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kerioPali: that should be faster, right?17:46
Palikerio, maybe yes, maybe not17:46
Palibut code is cleaner17:46
Palino shell in C code17:47
Palilike pipes, tail, ...17:47
tadzik1 process spawned, not 417:47
Palikerio, I think that speed is same17:47
keriotadzik: two17:47
DocScrutinizer05kerio: are we interested that much in speed of updates? (aiui it's about update, no?)17:47
Palionly number of processes17:47
tadzik2 vs 5 then17:47
kerioDocScrutinizer05: it's about opening the "about CSSU" in settings17:47
kerio:317:47
DocScrutinizer05aah17:47
tadzikor I have trouble counting :)17:48
keriomicrooptimization!17:48
keriotadzik: there's a shell that runs the whole string too17:48
tadzikkerio: 2 vs 5 then17:48
PaliI think that spawning 3 more processes when you open About CSSU dialog is still OK17:48
tadzikbefore there was shell, runing sh -c, blablabla17:48
Paliwe know that busybox is mess and this patch eliminate using it in C code17:49
Palireally writing shell parts in C/C++ is bad idea17:49
kerioPali: busybox is still called17:49
Palikerio, where?17:49
keriobut hell, not even busybox can mess up sh -c "<command>"17:49
Palig_spanw_something doing fork+exec17:49
kerioPali: how did the pipes work, before?17:50
Palinot like like system("") which doing fork, exec sh -c '', fork, exec script17:50
kerioooh17:50
kerioi see17:50
keriothen yeah, it's better now :317:50
Palidpkg-query (with correct params) return version of installed package17:51
kerioPali: you know what's not ok? checking the dpkg version of a package while everything is booting, and slowing my status area down >:c17:51
Palikerio, this is in About dialog17:51
kerioi'm talking about your battery applet17:51
DocScrutinizer05it's only better when codesize of resident program text has not increased17:51
Palicalling one more process when booting is still OK17:52
DocScrutinizer05since you don't bother about 29 processes plus for 30s, you worry about 20k additional program code occupying ram all the time17:52
Palilinux has really good clone system call17:52
kerioPali: it's visibly slower than no check17:52
kerioit's kinda weird17:53
Palikerio, propose (correct !) patch and I can include it17:53
kerioPali: my patch would involve depending on bme 1 and just ignoring the check :)17:53
kerioer, bme >= 117:53
Palithis will not work with installed bme17:54
Palipatch is not correct17:54
kerio.-.17:54
Palibtw, now patching MAGs profile applet17:54
kerioi meant making it so that the check does what it's supposed to do after finding bme 117:54
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DocScrutinizer05[2012-11-22 16:54:47] <Pali> btw, now patching MAGs profile applet17:57
DocScrutinizer05:-P17:58
Palihttps://gitorious.org/~pali/community-ssu/pali-status-menu-applet-profiles17:59
DocScrutinizer05Pali: what's this applet doing, esp what's it doing differently than stock applet?18:05
Palishow all profiles (not only general & silent)18:05
DocScrutinizer05that sounds great18:05
Palinow only one think not working: vibrate buttons :-(18:05
Palifor unknown reason vibrate button does not change profiled settings18:06
DocScrutinizer05couldn't care less about nonsensical vibrate buttons, but then that's just me18:06
DocScrutinizer05right now I got TWO profile buttons in status-menu, one of tweakr and probably a second one from advanced profile blabla (sorry don't recall the name)18:07
DocScrutinizer05I'd adore replacing the latter by CSSU profile applet if it can do the same, and then wonder how to get rid of tweakr profile button while keeping tweakr18:08
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DocScrutinizer05hell it's been me and MohammadAG who originally discussed that profiled shoud be able to handle arbitrary profiles, just applet can't18:09
DocScrutinizer05I forgot about every single detail of that investigation18:09
DocScrutinizer05Pali: so I gather you're about to fix that vibrate button bug?18:11
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, seems that I do not calling proper gtk_someting function for hildon checkbox button18:12
PaliI will try to fix it18:12
DocScrutinizer05MohammadAG: anything known about that bug?18:12
kerioPali: does your status applet correctly depend on mediaplayer-l10n-mr0?18:13
Palikerio, which status applet?18:13
DocScrutinizer05o.O18:13
keriostatus-area-applet-battery18:13
PaliDocScrutinizer05, MAG version was not complete18:13
DocScrutinizer05battery depends on mediaplayer??18:13
Palikerio, yes18:14
Palion l10n18:14
DocScrutinizer05dafq18:14
kerioDocScrutinizer05: str = dngettext ("mediaplayer", "mp_bd_label_hour%s", "mp_bd_label_hours%s", num);18:14
PaliI'm reusing minutes or hours string18:14
keriofor the translation of "hours:"18:14
DocScrutinizer05OMFG18:14
Paliand I found that mediaplayer l10n package has it18:14
kerioDocScrutinizer05: i know, it's awesome :D18:15
Paliall l10n packages are installed by default on maemo5 - so no problem18:15
DocScrutinizer05sure sure18:15
DocScrutinizer05just it feels so... WAAAAAH!18:15
kerioDocScrutinizer05: patches welcome18:15
DocScrutinizer05lol18:15
kerioPali: are you sure that osso-clock doesn't have hours and minutes?18:15
DocScrutinizer05roll you rown i10n18:15
Paliyes18:16
PaliI looked into all l10n packages18:16
DocScrutinizer05l10n even18:16
DocScrutinizer05you check impact on memory footprint?18:17
Palivibrate button working :-)18:18
kerioPali: am i reading this wrong, or the applet keeps checking for the presence of bme_RX-51 in the processes?18:18
Palikerio, yes18:18
keriooh no, wait18:18
kerionot if bme_replacement is set18:18
Paliif bme replacement is installed then it not checking18:19
keriothen it's easy to fix the problem, if you accept that there's going to be a bit of cruft :318:19
keriobme_replacement = 1; // system ("dpkg -l ...18:20
kerioPali: actually...18:27
kerioPali: what about the existance of the /usr/bin/bme_RX-51 binary?18:27
Palifor what?18:27
kerioif there isn't one, then we can assume the user is running the bme_replacement18:27
Palinot correct18:28
Palineed to know if hald-addon-bme is replacement or not18:28
PaliI'm still using for testing: stopped bme with new hald-addon-bme18:28
kerioPali: well then the check is wrong18:29
keriothe check compares the version of bme-rx-51 to 1.018:29
kerioif it's greater or equal than that, then /usr/bin/bme_RX-51 isn't present18:29
kerioif it's present, then the version is lesser than that :)18:30
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Paliyes18:30
PaliI already wrote it is not easy to fix this problem...18:31
keriostill, that check is equivalent to the nonexistance of that file - if we're to assume that the dpkg database matches what's actually installed18:32
keriobut if that's wrong, then the check is meaningless anyway18:32
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PaliDocScrutinizer05, for better profile support we need harmattan profiled daemon in cssu18:50
Paliit was opened18:50
PaliI asked profiled devs if daemon with libs are compatible with fremantle and I got answer that API/ABI should be compatible...18:51
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Palimerlin1991, DocScrutinizer05, here is merge request: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/status-menu-applet-profiles/merge_requests/119:30
Palimaybe candidate for cssu-devel19:30
Palialso here is harmattan profiled with fremantle config files: https://meego.gitorious.org/~pali/meego-middleware/pali-profiled19:31
Paliand here is merge request for status area applet battery: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/status-area-applet-battery/merge_requests/219:35
kerioi thought cssu-devel didn't have particular requirements for the upload19:35
Palimerlin1991, freemangordon look at it ^^^19:35
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: that's correct20:00
kerio"candidate for cssu-devel" isn't meaningful, then20:01
keriobecause everything is20:01
kerioPali: i say upload to cssu-devel20:01
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freemangordonDocScrutinizer05, kerio: errr, isn't cssu-devel supposed to be used for testing stuff to to to CSSU? if something is not meant for CSSU, then it has no place in CSSU-devel21:04
freemangordons/to to ot/to go to/21:05
freemangordonthe fuck21:05
* freemangordon is still sleeping :D21:05
freemangordonmerlin1991: I started REing tklock, scratch "the call for help"21:06
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DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: cssu-devel is kinda staging for cssu-t, but also kinda sandbox playground for devels to have fun based on cssu. Not everything in cssu-devel *has* to go to cssu-t eventually. there as well might be projects that never get finished, or turn out to be incompatible or otherwise inappropriate for cssu-t21:56
DocScrutinizer05IOW cssu-devel is the alternative to extras-devel for projects that seem like don't really fit into extras-devel since they need stuff that could get provided via cssu only21:59
keriocssu-devel is #maemo-ssu's playground repo :D21:59
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