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| freemangordon | merlin1991: ping | 00:14 |
|---|---|---|
| kerio | hmm, would you guys be ok with adding the extra commands in busybox-power to the cssu busybox package, if properly optified? | 00:23 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: mostly you ;) | 00:23 |
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| freemangordon | kerio: read how the Friday's conversation ended | 00:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: I fail to see how you'd possibly do that, unless you follow my suggestion to optify whole busybox-power and leave init busybox alone | 00:24 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: iirc we agree that iDont will split bb in two | 00:25 |
| kerio | yay | 00:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: if you haven't noticed yet, you can't split busybox, it's one monolithic binary | 00:26 |
| freemangordon | leaving what is needed in rootfs and moving the resit in /opt | 00:26 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: you can, however, put the symlinks somewhere else | 00:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pffff | 00:26 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: according to iDont it is possible | 00:26 |
| freemangordon | (should be) | 00:27 |
| kerio | /bin/busybox as close as the stock one as possible, maybe with patches and bugfixes after they are checked and tested, and with the same amount of features as the stock busybox | 00:27 |
| kerio | and then /opt/busybox/busybox which is basically the current busybox-power | 00:27 |
| freemangordon | kerio: lets not start that again, read the logs | 00:27 |
| freemangordon | it's been covered | 00:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: that's basically what I suggested, and that's basically two unrelated shell binaries | 00:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, I'm absolutely fine with that, since init and basic core system won't care about that stuff in /opt | 00:31 |
| kerio | the thing is, it could definetely be optional | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's the main point | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | another point being that even when you opt-in it won't eat space in rootfs | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and it will not introduce (per se) new risks into init process done by busybox basic | 00:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and all the bb-p fans should be happy with that as well | 00:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except those that still think it MUST NOT be optional, since busybox-power is so cool we have to forcefeed it to the rest of the world | 00:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no matter what | 00:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it seems the most offensive and vocal fan of that "save the world" approach has actually taken an off-time from IRC | 00:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I couldn't bother less to search tmo for his latest insults and lies | 00:41 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: pong | 00:44 |
| merlin1991 | My box is doing the 3rd reboot whilst installing 1 servicepack, windows sucks | 00:45 |
| merlin1991 | But I have grub in place by now :) | 00:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | [2012-08-31 14:40:39] <merlin1991> kerio: it would use conflict: something which in ham only throws the use pc-suite to update error | 01:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: some "ideas": instead of "use PC suite mode" notification/error, we need a requester "conflicts! press yes for installing new and uninstalling the conflicting old. Press no to abort installation of new" | 01:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: another "idea": since cssu-extras is supposed to not kill old HAM, could we already get one or two optional packages (possibly void dummy test packages, or anything we wanna get anyway into extras like bb-p) and check it works like expected with 'old' HAM, I.E. doesn't show up (aiui) | 01:26 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: as long as a package isn't in a user/* section *old* ham just ignores it | 01:33 |
| merlin1991 | it's even better on harm, when you dl a deb that isn't in such a section the pkgmrg fails with a generic error :D | 01:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err | 01:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afk for late night beer | 01:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | let's call it a day | 05:27 |
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| freemangordon | merlin1991: I tried to put new microb-engine in -thumb repo, no dice :) | 09:02 |
| freemangordon | log says something like "new version already available" | 09:03 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: this is because i've changed version from -cssu0-thumbN to -0cssu0-thumbN :) | 09:05 |
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| kerio | freemangordon: so... what do you have to do now? | 11:14 |
| kerio | also why -0cssu? | 11:14 |
| freemangordon | ask merlin1991, not me, this is what he commited in master :) | 11:17 |
| kerio | k | 11:18 |
| kerio | merlin1991: why -0cssu0? | 11:18 |
| luf | kerio: -0cssu is in naming convention for cssu (mentioned somewhere in wiki). | 11:18 |
| kerio | and 0 is the revision, ok | 11:19 |
| luf | epoch or something like that :) | 11:19 |
| freemangordon | yep | 11:19 |
| freemangordon | it is my fault I didn't follow that for microb-engine in thumb | 11:19 |
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| freemangordon | merlin1991: ping | 11:22 |
| luf | http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU/Development#Version_Scheme | 11:22 |
| ivgalvez | hi, any ETA for World Clock Replacement on CSSU? | 11:22 |
| ivgalvez | Ade is now distributing it via Dropbox as it has been blocked since ages and, obviously, it's not material for Extras | 11:23 |
| kerio | who's Ade? | 11:24 |
| ivgalvez | World Clock maintainer | 11:26 |
| ivgalvez | and author of many emulator UIs | 11:26 |
| kerio | clearly we need fceu in CSSU | 11:27 |
| kerio | s/eu/eux/ | 11:28 |
| infobot | kerio meant: clearly we need fceux in CSSU | 11:28 |
| ivgalvez | I don't want to be disrespectful, but that's a nonsense | 11:28 |
| kerio | o rly? | 11:29 |
| kerio | :P | 11:29 |
| kerio | i'm not sure this world clock is cssu material though | 11:29 |
| kerio | i mean, the current clock works fine | 11:30 |
| ivgalvez | anyway, the question was for real CSSU developers | 11:30 |
| ivgalvez | no offense | 11:30 |
| kerio | i'm not sure if portrait mode is enough | 11:30 |
| kerio | hey, wtf, DocScrutinizer always comments on this kind of thing! | 11:30 |
| ivgalvez | merlin1991 ping | 11:31 |
| luf | ivgalvez: It seems to me like busybox I think there were no request from Ade. | 11:32 |
| luf | ivgalvez: current CSSU developers work on their "projects". | 11:33 |
| ivgalvez | luf: Ade has followed all necessary theoretical steps to include Worldclock in CSSU | 11:33 |
| ivgalvez | he has joined this channel | 11:33 |
| ivgalvez | has provided support | 11:33 |
| ivgalvez | he's maintainig the code in CSSU's gitorious | 11:33 |
| luf | ivgalvez: ok I'm sorry. | 11:33 |
| ivgalvez | he was requested to do that by freemangordon and merlin1991 | 11:34 |
| ivgalvez | but the package has not even entered devel | 11:34 |
| ivgalvez | I wonder if all his efforts are worth | 11:34 |
| ivgalvez | he's mentioned in TMO's thread for worldclock that he's beginning to think that it won't happen. I think it's unfortunate | 11:36 |
| ivgalvez | after all his efforts | 11:36 |
| luf | In this case it's question for merlin1991. | 11:37 |
| ivgalvez | I was trying that, but I received a funny answer from kerio | 11:37 |
| ivgalvez | merlin1991, please could you answer about future of Worldclosck in CSSU? It's a nonsense to keep it blocked without being clear about it | 11:38 |
| ivgalvez | merlin1991, if OSS replacements that provide minor bugfixing (portrait support) and improved features are not going to be accepted in CSSU, it would be better to clarify to avoid people wasting their time | 11:40 |
| jon_y | blocked? | 11:48 |
| jon_y | oops, wrong window | 11:49 |
| jon_y | heh, somehow on topic | 11:49 |
| ivgalvez | lucky you | 11:49 |
| jon_y | what's with the blocking here? | 11:51 |
| ivgalvez | status of worldclock | 11:51 |
| jon_y | why is it blocked? | 11:52 |
| ivgalvez | let's ellaborate it even more, freemangordon what's the reason to rewrite hildon-imvkbrenderer? | 11:52 |
| jon_y | is that the virtual keyboard thing? | 11:52 |
| ivgalvez | what critical bugs are fixable thanks to that replacement | 11:53 |
| ivgalvez | virtual keyboard works ok, doesn't it? | 11:53 |
| ivgalvez | AFAIL, the only fix that will bring hildon-imvkbrenderer is portrait support!! | 11:56 |
| luf | ivgalvez: I think waiting for merlin1991 is needed. No one else can answer. And take a look to the history (yesterday or the previous day). Similar battle about busybox. | 11:56 |
| ivgalvez | s/AFAIL/AFAIK/ | 11:56 |
| infobot | ivgalvez meant: AFAIK, the only fix that will bring hildon-imvkbrenderer is portrait support!! | 11:56 |
| kerio | !!!!1!1 | 11:56 |
| luf | I think form my perspective that merlin1991 forgot or maybe Ade didn't remember it too often. | 11:57 |
| ivgalvez | And let's avoid the question about bb portrait support.... | 11:57 |
| kerio | haha | 11:57 |
| ivgalvez | luf, I don't think so, however, I must say that I fail to see the rationale for accepting or rejecting new packages in CSSU | 11:58 |
| luf | ivgalvez: I agree that the rules are missing and it's not transparent enough. | 11:59 |
| ivgalvez | for example, we have heard about busybox-power that rootfs space occupied was a blocking issue | 11:59 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: not really, no | 12:04 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: yes, the reason to RE VKB is portrait support | 12:04 |
| freemangordon | kerio: yes | 12:04 |
| kerio | the big problem with busybox-power is that it changes builtin commands | 12:04 |
| ivgalvez | I haven't compared other components's size, however I haven't seen this argument applied to any other updates. And 500 Kb is easy to beat | 12:04 |
| kerio | iDont said that he'll split busybox in two, and the extra commands will be optified | 12:05 |
| kerio | and the changes to the stock ones will be checked for to make sure shit doesn't break | 12:05 |
| kerio | s/for // | 12:05 |
| infobot | kerio meant: and the changes to the stock ones will be checked to make sure shit doesn't break | 12:05 |
| ivgalvez | kerio, let's check how other upgrades have been tested to avoid breackage | 12:06 |
| kerio | inb4 cbsms | 12:06 |
| ivgalvez | for example Qt 4.7.4 | 12:06 |
| kerio | oh | 12:06 |
| kerio | hm, what did it break? | 12:06 |
| ivgalvez | once it was rolled, a few applications stopped working | 12:06 |
| kerio | neat | 12:06 |
| kerio | which ones? | 12:06 |
| ivgalvez | because of some nasty hacks in QML for 4.7.0 | 12:07 |
| kerio | btw, lack of rigor in one place doesn't justify lack of rigor anywhere else | 12:07 |
| freemangordon | kerio: please, don;t ask such a stupid questions, the fact you were not here means nothing in that context | 12:07 |
| ivgalvez | I don't remember all right now, most of them were fixed quite fast | 12:07 |
| ivgalvez | but for example, LinkedUp never worked again | 12:07 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: what? is that reported somewhere? sorry if I missed it | 12:08 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: btw, is this change in cssu-stable? | 12:08 |
| freemangordon | kerio: you can check it yourself aiui | 12:08 |
| ivgalvez | I have complaned about it several times, the problem is not in CSSU but in LinkedUp | 12:08 |
| ivgalvez | the use of focus scope in QML | 12:09 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: aah, ok, i understood it is Qt that breaks it | 12:09 |
| ivgalvez | was badly broken in 4.7.0 | 12:09 |
| freemangordon | i see | 12:09 |
| ivgalvez | the fix for Qt broke hacks for make it working in 4.7.0 | 12:09 |
| freemangordon | ok, got it | 12:09 |
| ivgalvez | so applications mantained were fixed | 12:09 |
| ivgalvez | but not LinkedUp | 12:09 |
| ivgalvez | it's just an example for how any change introduced in CSSU can always break something | 12:10 |
| ivgalvez | however, the alternative is not to provide any updates | 12:10 |
| kerio | *not to not provide any updates | 12:11 |
| ivgalvez | yep, sorry, which would be a nonsense | 12:11 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: i see your point, but indeed, lets wait for merlin1991 | 12:11 |
| ivgalvez | anyway, something will be broken, with any change we introduce. But we have a devel-testing-stable cycle to try to fix those problems | 12:12 |
| ivgalvez | if nobody cares, i.e. LinkedUp, the issue will remain, but that's not reason to stop any progress | 12:13 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: there is noone online who will argue on that ;) | 12:13 |
| ivgalvez | yes, I see | 12:13 |
| luf | I think DocS disagree ;) | 12:13 |
| freemangordon | luf: so? | 12:14 |
| freemangordon | or just saying :P | 12:14 |
| luf | freemangordon: you're right "there is noone online who will argue on that" | 12:15 |
| ivgalvez | the real question is: what is the real goal of CSSU? because we haven't applied the same rules to all the components | 12:15 |
| ivgalvez | I mean, I can disagree with Doc, but he has a point | 12:15 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: you may want to read the log from bb discussion | 12:16 |
| ivgalvez | if CSSU is only about freaking stable patches with code coverage only for bugfixing | 12:16 |
| ivgalvez | yes, I read them | 12:16 |
| luf | ivgalvez: I see this as the main problem. But it's not so easy :) | 12:16 |
| ivgalvez | well if CSSU is only bugfixing, half the components shouldn't be there | 12:16 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: it does not make sense to argue with me then :P | 12:16 |
| ivgalvez | hehe | 12:17 |
| freemangordon | or with luf in that regard | 12:17 |
| freemangordon | :D | 12:17 |
| luf | ivgalvez: main problem is lack of some rules. | 12:17 |
| luf | ivgalvez: it does not make sense to argue with me ;) | 12:18 |
| freemangordon | hehe | 12:18 |
| ivgalvez | the situation is even more strange since latest meeting organised by freemangordon about community kernel and glibc | 12:18 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: in theory, the improvements (camera-ui2, operator-name-cbs-widget, busybox-power) will be made optional in some way | 12:18 |
| ivgalvez | there were some decisions there | 12:18 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: well, have in mind it was summer time, lots of holidays etc | 12:18 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991 was on holyday for about a month or so | 12:19 |
| * freemangordon is anvy | 12:19 | |
| ivgalvez | that were retired the day after | 12:19 |
| freemangordon | i know | 12:19 |
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| * freemangordon is afk for a while | 12:19 | |
| ivgalvez | kerio, busybox-power cannot be considerd as camera-ui2 or operator-name-cbs-widget | 12:23 |
| ivgalvez | those are OSS replacement | 12:23 |
| ivgalvez | bb-p is upstream version | 12:23 |
| ivgalvez | the same than Qt 4.7.4 is upstream with new features and bugfixes | 12:24 |
| luf | the same as curl is upstream | 12:24 |
| ivgalvez | you can argue that bbp has more risks than Qt 4.7.4 | 12:24 |
| ivgalvez | but the fact is that bbp has near 30K downloads and not known regressions | 12:25 |
| ivgalvez | with a big bunch of testers and power users participating in its TMO thread | 12:26 |
| ivgalvez | while Qt 4.7.4 still breaks (at least) one application existing in Extras | 12:26 |
| ivgalvez | bb-p has probably more users than CSSU, as it's in Extras since ages (before even CSSU exists) while you need to go to TMO and read tons of information to know about CSSU | 12:28 |
| ivgalvez | so I definitively do not understand it | 12:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: world clock isn't "blocked" for all I recall. | 12:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please check chanlogs | 12:38 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: well, someone would argue that "lack of development" actually means blocked | 12:39 |
| freemangordon | and the lack on development is on CSSU side, not on ade's | 12:40 |
| freemangordon | as there was some kind of "promise" adeclock will go in cssu-extras-to-be | 12:40 |
| freemangordon | cssu-extras-to-be is still missing and noone knows when and if it will be ready | 12:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's life | 12:42 |
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| luf | DocS: it leads to lose of developers ... | 12:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991 said he'll implement the missing bits into HAM | 12:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if somebody feels that's too slowly happening, you're free to help | 12:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | until then, as mentioned here like 12h ago, you could bring optional packages to cssu-extras and install them via apt-get | 12:46 |
| kerio | yay apt | 12:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see anything blocking that | 12:48 |
| kerio | lack of support? | 12:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh, kerio. Your comments are neither helpful nor to the point | 12:48 |
| kerio | the problem with replacing system packages is always the same | 12:49 |
| kerio | lack of support in the metapackage unless you do weird shit, lack of consistency when you do upgrades | 12:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, we discussed it with busybox like yesterday | 12:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's what we designed the cssu-extras scheme fore | 12:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please read about it in merlin1991's mail | 12:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as well as in chanlogs | 12:51 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: saying that you don;t give a shit when there are only a few developers contibuting to CSSU makes me wonder what is your motivation. | 12:51 |
| kerio | i meant about doing that unofficially | 12:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: I'm saying what? | 12:52 |
| freemangordon | 12:41 <DocScrutinizer05> that's life | 12:52 |
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| djszapi | ivgalvez: hi | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: ^^^ | 12:53 |
| djszapi | do you know anything about the meeting friday afternoon with x-fade? | 12:53 |
| djszapi | I have just heard of that. It would take place at 3 am? | 12:53 |
| chem|st | djszapi: ask proper questions... ask what you want to know not general foo... | 12:53 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I don't have time now to argue with you (again :) ), will do it next time | 12:54 |
| chem|st | ivgalvez: when does the meeting with x-fade take place? | 12:54 |
| djszapi | chem|st: I have asked general foo | 12:54 |
| djszapi | since I do not know anything | 12:54 |
| ivgalvez | djszapi it will be 15:00 UTC this Friday at #maemo-meeting | 12:54 |
| djszapi | any url, news page, etc would help a lot to understand more about the purpose, etc | 12:54 |
| ivgalvez | see Maemo News | 12:55 |
| ivgalvez | http://maemo.org/community/council/community_council_meeting_with_nemein-august_31st-2012/ | 12:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: I've not even any mood to argue about diffetrence between "that's life" and "you don;t give a shit when there are only a few developers contibuting to CSSU" | 12:55 |
| djszapi | we have had some issues with the c-obs recently, so I would also like to join, if it is inside the scope of the meeting, and I am invited. | 12:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since that's nonsensical | 12:55 |
| ivgalvez | djszapi, of course | 12:55 |
| RST38h | EHLO Doc | 12:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | djszapi: you're aware you are kinda OT in this chan? | 12:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi RST38h | 12:56 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, please be generous I'm only connected to this channel ;) | 12:57 |
| RST38h | Is he planning to add Aegis to Maemo5 CSSU? Is he? IS HE REALLY? | 12:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: ok | 12:57 |
| RST38h | I mean, wouldn't Aegis be a killer feature? | 12:57 |
| ivgalvez | RST38h what did you smoke? | 12:58 |
| kerio | sure, it would kill off maemo5 for good | 12:58 |
| kerio | i don't think that's the definition of "killer feature" tho | 12:58 |
| djszapi | ivgalvez: thank you. | 12:58 |
| RST38h | ivgalvez: I do not smoke, I produce this stuff in the course of natural metabolism | 12:58 |
| ivgalvez | RST38h: I was kidding | 12:59 |
| djszapi | ivgalvez: if I somehow get distracted on Friday afternoon, feel free to ping me in private before the meeting as a reminder. | 13:00 |
| djszapi | if it is not a problem for you. :) | 13:00 |
| ivgalvez | of course, don't worry. It would be useful if you send us an email detailing the problems in c-obs to council@maemo.org | 13:01 |
| djszapi | ok, I can group some of my bugreports. | 13:02 |
| djszapi | let us discuss this on Friday. | 13:02 |
| djszapi | thank you, again. | 13:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: I'm not able to keep track with every single package that somehow belongs to or relates to or should go to cssu. That's why I ask what's current status of world clock. Usually devels get their stuff into cssu git, and on next cssu-t release merlin will include them if they are ready for inclusion. There's nothing "blocking" world clock as you assumed | 13:10 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05: World Clock is present in CSSU's git since long time ago but it hasn't been included yet in any CSSU-T release | 13:11 |
| ivgalvez | it hasn't been even packaged for Devel | 13:11 |
| ivgalvez | that's why I asked merlin1991 about it | 13:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I have no idea about devel | 13:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd think devel is where every devel may do whatever they want | 13:12 |
| ivgalvez | I'm not pointing to you | 13:12 |
| ivgalvez | I'm simply asking because I don't really understand what's the rationale | 13:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's not really any devel release | 13:12 |
| ivgalvez | yes but then, how a new package enters devel? | 13:13 |
| ivgalvez | until now, to test the worldclock you needed to copy the binary manually | 13:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as already stated, NFC about devel, really. I think it's mainly freemangordon to ask | 13:14 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: well, merlin1991 should give the developer access to the repo | 13:14 |
| freemangordon | but I don't think ade has requested such | 13:14 |
| freemangordon | (access) | 13:14 |
| ivgalvez | and now Ade seems bored and is distributing the package via Dropbox | 13:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 13:14 |
| ivgalvez | maybe he didn't know | 13:14 |
| freemangordon | could be | 13:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unfortunate | 13:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I see a ceratin need for a "CSSU - how to contribute" | 13:15 |
| ivgalvez | as all the discussion around if it should or shouldn't enter in CSSU was hiding the fact that it could go to devel for the time bieng | 13:15 |
| freemangordon | but a simple question "how the fuck am I supposed to upload the stuff in -devel repo" should give him the missing knowledge | 13:15 |
| ivgalvez | I wouldn't like to lose developers just because of that | 13:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all we hadn't much need so far for such a howto, but if we want to welcome new contributors we should publish such stuff | 13:17 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: yes, but CSSU developer should somehow pro-active ;) | 13:17 |
| freemangordon | after all cssu-devel is not a secret | 13:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: indeed | 13:17 |
| ivgalvez | well I've seen ade here so many times, but all the discussion was around if it could or not go into CSSU | 13:18 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: see how busybox-thumb has entered cssu-thumb repo | 13:18 |
| ivgalvez | I read all the logs and didn't know how to upload to devel | 13:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: how about you writing a nice howto, you are "from outside" and thus might have a untainted view on what's needed in such a howto | 13:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of course we're happy to help | 13:19 |
| ivgalvez | fremangordon, don't try to cheat me, you know that thumb repo is far more relaxed that CSSU | 13:19 |
| ivgalvez | you are the maintainer ;) | 13:19 |
| freemangordon | cssu-devel is as relaxed as -thumb is | 13:20 |
| freemangordon | well, it is even more relaxed | 13:20 |
| ivgalvez | well, nobody had said that, yet | 13:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's probably because we only "recently" invented cssu-devel | 13:21 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 I'd like I could, but I'm not sure if I will have time for that :( my TODO is huge | 13:21 |
| ivgalvez | really huge | 13:21 |
| ivgalvez | It's not strange people don't want to be part of Council | 13:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll see if I can cludge something together | 13:22 |
| ivgalvez | I wonder if we will have enough candidates for next election | 13:22 |
| ivgalvez | anyway, I'll push ade a bit more | 13:22 |
| kerio | well, one point is actually clear though | 13:23 |
| kerio | cssu won't include packages without the permission of the authors | 13:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please tell him nobody is blocking worldclock, it's just not moving fast and he should contribute and take care | 13:23 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 13:23 |
| kerio | and considering the lack of personnel, most likely packages won't be included if the author doesn't actively come forward and help | 13:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, that's why it is meaningless to argue "but XY made it to CSSU and it also only has portrait support" | 13:25 |
| ivgalvez | done | 13:25 |
| kerio | where did you tell him? | 13:26 |
| kerio | email? tmo? or a more "live" way? | 13:26 |
| ivgalvez | world clock TMO thread | 13:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afaik we scheduled a new T release for this week | 13:27 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: hm, will something apart from the metapackage actually upgrade for me? | 13:28 |
| kerio | i'm on -testing+thumb+devel | 13:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it usually helps when devels hang out here taking care about their package not falling off end of the table when we discuss what to include | 13:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991 has a list of candidates afaik | 13:29 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: no, i mean | 13:29 |
| kerio | i don't actually know how the "promoting" is supposed to work | 13:30 |
| kerio | is the package in -devel just copied to -testing? | 13:30 |
| kerio | or is there new stuff too? | 13:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, I think we're discussing it here for each packet suggested, and then merlin1991 and/or mohammad prepare packages for T | 13:30 |
| kerio | yeah but are they packages that have been in -devel already? | 13:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and -devel is no prerequisite at all | 13:31 |
| kerio | i see | 13:31 |
| kerio | i was wondering about that, yeah :) | 13:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually until invention of -devel devls were supposed to develop and test locally on their home environment whatever that is | 13:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then distrubute by whatever means (tmo?) to maybe a dozen of betatesters, and based on their results we decide whether pkg gets included to T or needs further work before that | 13:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now devels may deliver to betatesters via -devel aiui | 13:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it's not any prerequisite | 13:35 |
| kerio | i see | 13:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prerequisite however are the betatesters testing actual cssu pkg, not anything built a year ago for maemo stock and shipped via dropbox or mameo-extras | 13:37 |
| kerio | oh you! | 13:38 |
| kerio | c: | 13:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, never mind that last statement, it's not completely to the point. Actually packages may go straight from $arbitrary-state to cssu-t, depending on anticipated impact and risk and amount of "testing" they've seen regarding this risk | 13:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think it's decided in discussion in here, on a per-package basis | 13:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | optional packages of course have way lower watermark to skip for inclusion since they won't usually render user's system inoperable when any bug slips in with them. User simply opts out and problem solved as far as user's concern | 13:51 |
| ivgalvez | As I supposed | 14:10 |
| ivgalvez | it was unclear how to proceed with wrold clock | 14:11 |
| ivgalvez | check: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1260833&postcount=284 | 14:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: that's all fine :-) | 14:13 |
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| merlin1991 | okay I'm here now | 14:54 |
| kerio | merlin1991: replacement for clock - assuming the developer helps, yay or nay? | 14:57 |
| kerio | opensource replacement, with working portrait mode | 14:58 |
| merlin1991 | kerio: yay in the modified ham scheme | 14:58 |
| merlin1991 | luf: ping | 14:59 |
| luf | merlin1991: pong | 14:59 |
| kerio | hm | 14:59 |
| merlin1991 | did you see the rtcom logger repo? | 14:59 |
| luf | I didn't have time yesterday. | 14:59 |
| luf | I see. | 15:00 |
| luf | I'll upload (I hope) today. | 15:00 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: ping | 15:04 |
| merlin1991 | luf: I didn't try to build it yet, but it would be perfect if you could upload the sources soon, so in case there are some debhelper changes needed again or a missing builddependency I could quickly fix that | 15:11 |
| luf | merlin1991: ok | 15:12 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: microb-engine still failed | 15:17 |
| merlin1991 | with the same error | 15:18 |
| merlin1991 | ah yeah because the issue of "not even packed for devel" came up, devel is done by the developers themselves, if they want access they need to ask me, and then they can push their packages | 15:26 |
| merlin1991 | luf: ping me when you've pushed to gitorious | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: please check chanlog, we discussed world clock and decided on it already | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: no need to go thru all that again | 15:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi merlin1991 | 15:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: could we "include" cssu-extras optional and/or alternative packages to T even without HAM augments implemented yet? | 15:32 |
| merlin1991 | well ham would choke, but apt should be fine | 15:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or would that introduce useless complications? | 15:32 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: add them as optional, or add them as required? | 15:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: see my last line posted, I asked for optional and/or alternative packages | 15:33 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: o/ | 15:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: o/ | 15:34 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: the only "problem" is that HAM will never install them | 15:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: (ham would choke) aiui ham shouldn't even display them? | 15:35 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: I made up my mind what will become next in stable but one... so if you have time we could roll | 15:36 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: it depends on which category they're in | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: yes, thanks cpt obvious | 15:36 |
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| kerio | well, busybox-power from extras is in user/system iirc | 15:36 |
| kerio | can we make up our own category? | 15:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we already did, please read merlin1991's mail and chanlogs about cssu-extras | 15:37 |
| kerio | then yay | 15:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cssu-extras is NOT a new repo but a category in cssu-[st] | 15:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iirc | 15:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: could you post/paste the list of pkgs to update in S somewhere? | 15:42 |
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| chem|st | all but the extras (cbs camera tv) | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so nothing "new" | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ? | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IOW only updates of existing packages, no new packages introduced? | 15:47 |
| kerio | tv? | 15:47 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: then something is broken on you side, microb-engine builds with no problems here, FREMANTLE_ARMEL target, gcc 4.2.1 | 15:48 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: there is only dosfstools new | 15:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aaah ok | 15:48 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: could you help me to solve -thumb repo issue with microb-engime? | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no concerns regarding dosfstools | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 15:49 |
| freemangordon | hmm, wait | 15:49 |
| chem|st | ah no tv-out-control and dosfstools | 15:49 |
| freemangordon | it is needed by new ke-recv, is it going in stable? | 15:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wtf is tv-out-control? | 15:50 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: FOSS replacement of tv settings applet | 15:50 |
| chem|st | +1 | 15:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, what's the benefit? | 15:50 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: any concerns putting ke-recv in stable? | 15:51 |
| freemangordon | it is FOSS and it has some extended functionality | 15:51 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: the version in -testing? not at all | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, I completely missed to give it some tests | 15:51 |
| chem|st | afaics everything is fine but camUI and cbs | 15:51 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: just beware there were commits recently on gitorious, make sure you use the correct source to build it | 15:51 |
| kerio | freemangordon: well, the one in -testing is the one that tries desperately to mount everything, right? | 15:51 |
| freemangordon | kerio: desperately? | 15:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, aspect & scale | 15:52 |
| chem|st | I'd love to just include camui but "freedom of choice" crossed my mind | 15:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dnag, it showed "[ ] enable" (unticked) yet worked. I set it to "[x] enable" and of course nothing changed. Then I reverted to unticked and TV-out stopped providing signal to TVset | 15:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | something fishy in it | 15:56 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: i'll go for lunch now, got time in about 30 mins? | 15:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: provide a dirt simple camui-picker 'app' and freedom of choice secured | 15:57 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: could depend on it, it is in extras-stable?! | 15:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though, where lives camui.launch? | 15:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is it optified? | 15:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: you're asking about "dirt simple camui-picker"? It's not existing yet | 15:58 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: does camera-ui2 replace camui? | 15:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 16:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for now it does, which is a problem | 16:00 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: there is a picker isn't it? | 16:00 |
| kerio | does it have to? i mean, is it called from other programs that require "a photo"? | 16:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | haven't seen any yet | 16:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: nope, that's why it should become optional | 16:00 |
| kerio | where does the standard camera live? | 16:01 |
| chem|st | http://maemo.org/packages/view/cl-launcher/ | 16:01 |
| kerio | optfs? | 16:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and with a picker to choose which camui will come up when lens cover opened | 16:01 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: well, camera-ui2 has a way to choose that | 16:01 |
| kerio | in its settings | 16:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh | 16:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | neat | 16:01 |
| kerio | i mean, it has a way to choose whether to launch it or not when the lens cover is opened | 16:01 |
| kerio | not sure about anything else | 16:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh, that's not exactly what we want | 16:02 |
| kerio | what's launched when the lens cover is opened? | 16:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's a symlink that needs to be changed depending on what user picks as the standard/default camui | 16:03 |
| kerio | where does the symlink live? | 16:03 |
| chem|st | .desktop file | 16:03 |
| kerio | i think it's just a check for "were we launched from the camera lens cover? if so, close everything" | 16:04 |
| chem|st | it prevents starting from dbus me thinks | 16:04 |
| chem|st | as buggy as it is the other way it would start sometimes anyway and then close and freeze the system noticable sometimes | 16:05 |
| kerio | i see | 16:06 |
| kerio | couldn't it just change the .desktop to point to /bin/true? | 16:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't find the symlink anymore | 16:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-S | 16:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MEH! | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | original (stock): | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | t900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/camera-ui | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 22 Dec 12 2010 /usr/bin/camera-ui -> /usr/bin/maemo-invoker | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cssu: | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# ls -l /usr/bin/camera-ui | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 168532 2012-05-20 22:10 /usr/bin/camera-ui | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's pretty bad in a number of ways | 16:08 |
| kerio | what's maemo-invoker? | 16:09 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: btw, dpkg -S /usr/bin/camera-ui on both plskthx | 16:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the maemo turboloader for all proper maemo apps | 16:09 |
| kerio | turboloader? wat | 16:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it preloads libs and stuff, so apps start up faster and with smaller memory footprint | 16:10 |
| kerio | can't it be done for everything? | 16:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you need a special "interface" for camera-ui.launch | 16:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | afaik | 16:12 |
| kerio | oh, the program has to be compiled in a certain way | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (camera-ui.launch is the real binary that gets loaded by mameo-invoker when that mameo-invoker gets started wiith $0 == camera-ui | 16:13 |
| kerio | yeah, yeah, i figured | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ) | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | damn, maemo maemo maemo maemo | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not mameo | 16:13 |
| kerio | why don't other linux distros do this? | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | KDE does | 16:14 |
| kerio | fukken KDE :c | 16:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: we'd need a camui-picker that tweaks that symlink to point to either /usr/bin/maemo-invoker or nicocam binary | 16:15 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: is camera-ui.launch still there, on iron900? | 16:16 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: where do you get your info what maemo.launcher does? | 16:16 |
| freemangordon | maemo-invoker, sorry | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: nope | 16:17 |
| kerio | i see, so it's just a replacement of the package with the same name | 16:17 |
| kerio | hmm, why is this a big deal if camera-ui2 is optional? | 16:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: err, no particular source. storries on IRC, maybe wiki, dunno | 16:18 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: are you sure this .launch is not some legacy from diablo? | 16:18 |
| kerio | i mean, it's intended to be a camera-ui replacement, not a separate camera app | 16:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: obviously we got XY.launch binaries on fremantle | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | quite a number of them | 16:19 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: about microb-engine, could you try with a new clone, just to be sure? | 16:19 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: i did, it compiles ok | 16:20 |
| merlin1991 | hm I'd like to know why it fails for me | 16:20 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: did you oull the latest source? | 16:20 |
| merlin1991 | yes | 16:20 |
| freemangordon | *pull | 16:20 |
| merlin1991 | 5 commits | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not completely sure it needs a special interface though | 16:20 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: could you upload the complete set (debs, tar.gz, dsc and changes) to the server for me then? | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | t900:~# /usr/bin/camera-ui.launch | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Segmentation fault | 16:21 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I will appreciate if you find some info re .launch thingie, I was always wondering why exactly it is needed | 16:21 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: yeah, you cannot run it | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-P it seems it actually has some special interface | 16:21 |
| freemangordon | and it takes some special flags during compile-time, see hildon-desktop for reference | 16:22 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: ok, will do | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: it's about *.so preloaded by maemo-invoker afaik | 16:22 |
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| kerio | some page on a garage explains how it works | 16:22 |
| kerio | http://maemomm.garage.maemo.org/docs/tutorial/html/ch07.html | 16:22 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: but why that should be faster than ld.so? | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so maemo-invoker inherits all those libs.so to all the child processes it spawns | 16:23 |
| kerio | you need -shared in CFLAGS and -shared -rdynamic in LDFLAGS | 16:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: maemo-invoker is a "stay-resident" process | 16:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | you invoking it as binary simply does some IPC to the already running instance | 16:24 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: regarding version in -thumb you have 3 options | 16:24 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: so? it locks the libs in RAM? | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that already running instance then launches the camui/whaever | 16:24 |
| merlin1991 | #1 keep your old scheme for -thumb, #2 use an epoch, #3 use +xcssux instead of -xcssux | 16:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: yes, basically that's what it does | 16:25 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: there is a parameter I was not able to tweak, to allow older package version | 16:25 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: see inotcoming.log, it is mentioned there | 16:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since maemo-invoker never terminates and has the libs dlopened | 16:25 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I still fail to see the benefit for the wide-used libs (glibc, gtk, etc) | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: all that with big disclaimer "AFAIK" | 16:26 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: if it's just about -thumb I can simply remove the old package | 16:27 |
| kerio | merlin1991: -cssu0 is a higher version than -0cssu0 i think | 16:27 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: yes, for -thumb only. I followed your versioning scheme, that is why I have that problem | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: the first (maybe only) benefit is ld doesn't need to link symbols again | 16:27 |
| merlin1991 | well some users might need to use apt-get if you had microb-engine already in the mp | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aiui | 16:28 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: don;t worry, i have (=...) dependency | 16:28 |
| merlin1991 | :) | 16:28 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I for sure don;t want libs to stay resident when noone needs them | 16:29 |
| freemangordon | whatever "resident" means | 16:29 |
| kerio | freemangordon: it's just gtk | 16:29 |
| kerio | someone's gotta be using it | 16:29 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: also iirc camera-ui runs all the time | 16:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: making camera-ui(2) pickable introduces 168532 bytes new space consumtion to rootfs | 16:29 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: too much :P | 16:30 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: no it doesn't? | 16:30 |
| kerio | what do you mean by pickable? | 16:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since aiui we can't optify | 16:30 |
| kerio | why not? :o | 16:30 |
| kerio | oh, what do you know, camera-ui *does* run all the time | 16:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: I mean a GUI with two buttons: "lens cover starts stock camera" and "lens cover starts new nicocam" | 16:31 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: also stuff like hildon's launchers for camera-ui, right? | 16:32 |
| kerio | why can't it be optified? | 16:32 |
| kerio | is it required during boot time? | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | obviously will need a reboot to take effect, but that's not a big obstacle in my book | 16:32 |
| kerio | i mean, we're even lucky because the stock camera-ui is a symlink already | 16:32 |
| kerio | huh, why is that? | 16:32 |
| kerio | all it needs is a killall camera-ui | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | rrrright :-) | 16:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | so we just should check if we actually can't optify that crap | 16:33 |
| kerio | so the new CSSU camera-ui package should be the stock one, but optified | 16:34 |
| * freemangordon still fails to see the rationale behind that | 16:34 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't see why it would be needed to start in *early* boot | 16:34 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: I removed microb-engine from the repo | 16:34 |
| kerio | and without the symlink in the package, because you don't change dpkg files | 16:34 |
| freemangordon | nicocam is better than stock, FOSS, and has no known bugs. Why the hell we want all that mess? | 16:35 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: thanks | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it has known bugs, it introduces instability at least for me | 16:35 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: do we really need a picker? | 16:35 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: ? | 16:35 |
| kerio | can't it be just a package in cssu-extras? | 16:36 |
| kerio | with the usual provide+conflict | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: could, but that would make it mutually exclusive | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of course that's the normal way to implement it | 16:37 |
| kerio | i don't want 8 billion camera apps on my n900 | 16:37 |
| kerio | :c | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but if we can give user more freedom of choice (I.E. choose at runtime), why shouldn't we at least consider that? | 16:38 |
| freemangordon | no, you want, otherwise you won't have THE FREEDOM OF CHOICE | 16:38 |
| freemangordon | meh | 16:38 |
| kerio | why can't i have freedom of choice for modified-hildon-desktop? | 16:38 |
| freemangordon | kerio, DocScrutinizer05: you have the freedom of choice to not use CSSU, agree? | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | optional alternative cssu pkg:: freedom to decide between either one of both cameras, but not allowing concurrent install of both | 16:39 |
| kerio | inb4 DocScrutinizer05 tells us to stop trolling | 16:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: nope, we already decided on that. That's the only freedom CSSU won't give to devels, force user to do a all or nothing decision | 16:41 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: i suppose it could be a neat thing but then you'd have people who want to uninstall the stock camera-ui | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | those should be able to do that | 16:42 |
| kerio | it becomes a HUGE mess | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the picker app needs to check if there's actually an alternative | 16:42 |
| kerio | i suppose you make them all provide camera-ui | 16:42 |
| kerio | but they won't conflict | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: that's what _you_ say now | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there might be even further options in that picker thingie: "on lens cover open start fcam"; "on lens cover open start blessn900"; | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | who knows | 16:44 |
| kerio | would that even *work*? | 16:44 |
| kerio | also, we'd need to change the .desktop at that point | 16:44 |
| kerio | the one that's actually referred to when the lens cover is opened | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't think so, the way blessn900 and fcam work right now | 16:45 |
| kerio | meh, it's probably just a launcher anyway | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why do we need to change .desktop? | 16:45 |
| kerio | because if you change /usr/bin/camera-ui then you tap on "Camera" and FCam opens | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there shuld be a .desktop "default cam" and one for each particular cam like fcam, nicocam, blessn900 ... | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see much problems in that | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/much/many7. | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, that's exactly what's expected to happen: clicking "default cam" .desktop icon starts default cam whatever that is | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no need for .desktop change due to that | 16:49 |
| kerio | should it be called "Camera", maybe? :D | 16:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like it's now? yeah, probably | 16:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but we probably want a new icon&.desktop "Nokia camera" | 16:50 |
| kerio | yeah, yeah | 16:50 |
| kerio | well no, the icon is the same | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: are you feeling the mess becoming less HUGE? ;-D | 16:51 |
| kerio | or maybe the back of a digital camera, with elop's face in the monitor | 16:51 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: yeah, yeah | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | first of all somebody needs to check if that shit may get optified. We'd *love* to do that if possible | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since despite rants we care about freeing up space in rootfs | 16:52 |
| jon_y | optify elop's face? | 16:52 |
| jon_y | wallpaper from cssu :) | 16:52 |
| kerio | CSSU should ship a wallpaper with Elop in it | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | damn, I missed a highlight somewhere | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 16:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or I got delusions | 16:54 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: There is only one thing I am missing - who will implement that? | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if we can't optify, we might need to copy default camera-ui from /opt to /, same time we change the symlink | 16:56 |
| kerio | just repackage camera-ui | 16:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that shitty picker? I'll do | 16:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | looks like a 30liner shellscript | 16:56 |
| kerio | well, repackage both | 16:56 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: no, it should be a panel in Settings | 16:57 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 16:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, it *should*, just maybe | 16:57 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: you want your -stable users to switch between camera-ui flavours by using a shell script? | 16:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think I might be able to pick an arbitrary setting plugin and tweak it to picker's needs | 16:58 |
| kerio | repackage camera-ui so it has nokia-camera.desktop instead of camera-ui.desktop | 16:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: I thought of using zenity ;-P | 16:58 |
| kerio | and it has no /usr/bin/camera-ui symlink | 16:58 |
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| kerio | and add a camera-ui-picker with camera-ui.desktop and the settings panel | 16:59 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: in that regard - isn't that plugin a "CSSU settings" applet we are talking about? | 16:59 |
| kerio | and in postinst, make a default symlink to /usr/bin/maemo-launcher | 16:59 |
| kerio | freemangordon: no, it's just for the purpose of picking the camera | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: arguable | 16:59 |
| kerio | "CSSU settings" makes no sense | 16:59 |
| kerio | users would go "wtf is a cssu?" | 16:59 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: frankly, it belongs to there | 16:59 |
| freemangordon | a centralized place to control all of the goodies CSSU brings | 17:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm undecided between your and kerio's point | 17:00 |
| kerio | the centralized place should be Settings | 17:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 17:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no doubt | 17:00 |
| freemangordon | kerio: and applet in settings | 17:00 |
| freemangordon | s/and/a/ | 17:00 |
| infobot | freemangordon meant: kerio: a applet in settings | 17:00 |
| kerio | Personalization->Camera app. | 17:01 |
| kerio | as opposed to Extras->CSSU settings->Camera app. | 17:01 |
| freemangordon | does not matter how you will call it | 17:01 |
| kerio | it does | 17:01 |
| kerio | they should be a bunch of separate settings applets | 17:01 |
| freemangordon | no, it will become useless | 17:01 |
| kerio | there's no "Nokia" settings applet | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good point | 17:01 |
| freemangordon | the setting will become so overcrowded if we write an applect for every feature CSSU brings, that it will become a nightmare to use | 17:02 |
| kerio | as opposed to overcrowding the cssu applet? | 17:02 |
| freemangordon | yes, because you know in which group all of the features in there belong | 17:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are already some "crappy" random conglomerations of setting options in settings: tweakr, cssu-settings | 17:03 |
| kerio | freemangordon: users won't know that | 17:03 |
| kerio | users will go "wtf is a cssu, and why should i change its settings?" | 17:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed | 17:04 |
| freemangordon | kerio: in order to have such CSSU applet, you have to install CSSU, it won't appear out of the blue | 17:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a botch, when no better concept is feasible | 17:04 |
| freemangordon | spreadin configuration amongs tenths of places is not a good concept from the UI POV | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why isn't the new TV setting under CSSU? | 17:05 |
| kerio | freemangordon: the only reason cell broadcast settings is in a separate applet and not in Phone is because Phone is closed-source | 17:05 |
| kerio | and it *is* a single place | 17:05 |
| kerio | it's called Settings | 17:05 |
| kerio | and it's divided in categories already | 17:05 |
| freemangordon | kerio: agree, but it is a replacement, not a new feature. The same for tv-out applet - it is a replacement | 17:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CSSU tells nothing about the purpose of the settings it contains. It's a rather meaningless historical reference | 17:06 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: i was looking for a way to say that | 17:06 |
| kerio | yes | 17:06 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: forget about the name, i used "CSSU settings" just as an example | 17:06 |
| kerio | freemangordon: we could call it Settings | 17:06 |
| freemangordon | the point is that we should group the additional features that CSSU brings in one place | 17:07 |
| kerio | WHY? | 17:07 |
| freemangordon | because it is easier to be used | 17:07 |
| kerio | that's historical data | 17:07 |
| freemangordon | what is historical data, elaborate please? | 17:07 |
| kerio | how will a user know if a feature was added in CSSU or was added in PR1.2? | 17:07 |
| freemangordon | why he/she should care? | 17:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 17:08 |
| freemangordon | the logical place after installing a new piece of SW on your device/PC/whatever is its own "settings" | 17:08 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 suggests to get a settings applet for each developer, named "FMG", "Doc", "Kerio" errr | 17:09 | |
| freemangordon | disagree, only one, called "Kerio" :P | 17:09 |
| freemangordon | with sub-menus FMG nad doc | 17:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | makes as much sense as collecting all new settings under settings-menu "CSSU" | 17:09 |
| freemangordon | aaah | 17:09 |
| freemangordon | forget about the name, please | 17:09 |
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| freemangordon | I am talking about the concept, name it whatever you like | 17:10 |
| kerio | how should we call this hypotetical super-applet with settings for all the features added? | 17:10 |
| jon_y | "Kerio" preset load! | 17:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no matter what it's named, unless it's a name referring to camera it's a poor choice | 17:10 |
| freemangordon | "Extra system settings" etc | 17:10 |
| kerio | FUCKING WHY | 17:10 |
| kerio | IT'S STUPID | 17:10 |
| kerio | WHY ARE THEY EXTRA | 17:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or make that "default apps" | 17:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and group all pickers for cam, browser, whatnot in there | 17:11 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: but m-h-d settings should go somewhere else | 17:11 |
| freemangordon | kerio: how am I supposed to know that I can switch between different camera-ui versions from "Personalization" applet? | 17:11 |
| kerio | no, you switch between different camera-ui versions from the "Camera app. switcher" applet | 17:11 |
| kerio | go open the settings app | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just a rationale to put it into something that's defined by property "came with cssu" is no good rationale | 17:12 |
| freemangordon | so, we fill Settings with an applet for every damn gconf key or replacement SW? | 17:12 |
| freemangordon | bullshit | 17:12 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I will repeat - no matter how it will be called, I am sure we can think of something much more meaningful than "CSSU Settings" | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | look at existing menu points in settings - most of them are function groups | 17:13 |
| freemangordon | exactly | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so we need to decide what function group a picker might belong to | 17:13 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "default apps" seems nice to me | 17:14 |
| freemangordon | I can bet such does not exist right now | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "system" tastes a bit too low level geeky | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "personalization" isn't that bad either | 17:15 |
| freemangordon | "Extra"? | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, rather unspecific, unless you tell me what qualifies a setting to be "extra" | 17:15 |
| freemangordon | as we can reuse it in the future | 17:16 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: "default apps" and "home screen and task nav" in personalization, cbsms merged with Phone | 17:16 |
| freemangordon | kerio: wish you luck with that merge | 17:16 |
| kerio | :c | 17:16 |
| kerio | where should the fmtx applet setting go? | 17:16 |
| freemangordon | I am sure you are way better in RE than me and jonwil, as we already gave up on that | 17:16 |
| kerio | oh, possibly in the fmtx settings themselves | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how's about "UX" for User Experience? | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | everything regarding GUI at large | 17:17 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: oh come on, everything is user experience | 17:17 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: hmm User Experience sound better than UX | 17:17 |
| freemangordon | or User Extras? | 17:17 |
| kerio | i mean, notification led should be put there too | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I still fail to grok what's qualifying an "extra" | 17:18 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: everything, that is the idea | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if there's extra then I'd guess there's also basic | 17:18 |
| freemangordon | basic is what already exusts | 17:18 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: pretty much everything under Personalization should go in a hypothetical "User Experience" applet | 17:18 |
| kerio | freemangordon: why is it relevant to the settings? | 17:19 |
| kerio | :s | 17:19 |
| kerio | i don't get it | 17:19 |
| freemangordon | kerio: please stop reorganazing the whole Settings menu, it is pointless | 17:19 |
| kerio | how will a user that buys a n900 and installs cssu right away know what was there before and what isn't? | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, so differentiation between basic and extras is again historical, not functional | 17:19 |
| freemangordon | kerio: and how much of those do you expect to appear in the future? | 17:19 |
| kerio | irrelevant | 17:19 |
| kerio | if we're going by the current userbase we could stop supporting HAM and tell people to only use apt | 17:20 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: we can;t rewrite the whole settings menu | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I never suggested that | 17:20 |
| kerio | freemangordon: the settings menu is clearly divided by function | 17:20 |
| freemangordon | too much source code missing | 17:20 |
| kerio | we should group settings inside of applets based on functionality, not history | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, an unfortunate situation | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but - as we see with TV aplet - there's hope and progress | 17:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we don't want to counteract that by sloppy design decisions | 17:21 |
| freemangordon | hmm, TBH if I have to take UI decisions, I will put FM and TV under the Devices subcategories | 17:22 |
| freemangordon | *subcategory | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 17:23 |
| freemangordon | but we are missing such functionality in Settings AFAIK | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: we can't simply tweak e.g phone submenu | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: but | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: could we *invoke* phone settings as a sub-sub-menu from our own phone2 submenu? | 17:24 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I think we can, though it will be ugly :D | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I know it's not a nice solution, just asking | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, pretty ugly | 17:24 |
| freemangordon | the proble could arise by the fact there are lots of functions exported by .so | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though sometimes might be better than other alternatives | 17:25 |
| freemangordon | actually that stopped me from continuing RE | 17:25 |
| kerio | can't we like, embed the stock Phone applet in our new one? | 17:25 |
| freemangordon | the dialog itself is not so complicated | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: kinda what I just asked | 17:26 |
| kerio | also freemangordon: no way, Phone is connectivity | 17:26 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: no, you said invoke it | 17:26 |
| kerio | to me, invoke is "tap a button, popup appears" | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, you say embed | 17:26 |
| freemangordon | anyway, I need to go, bbl | 17:26 |
| kerio | yours is probably much easier to do, ofc | 17:26 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 too | 17:26 | |
| kerio | and also uglier | 17:26 |
| * kerio is eating a yogurt | 17:27 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: think of a small submenu with maybe 3 or 4 buttons, one of them "phone", another one "braodcast&messaging" or whatever | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe a tad less ugly than including the button for phone into a settings screen with sliders and whatnot | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usability wise it means that cbsms settings are one click further away from settings-main than with the prvious idea | 17:30 |
| kerio | so... redesign the Settings menu to mask the fact that we don't have the source to most of the settings? neat | 17:30 |
| kerio | UI programming is about lying, anyway | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otoh the "phone" button doesn't drown in all those sliders and checkboxes of our own setting-submenu | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we basically introduce a new menu level in between | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in settings the button stays like "phone", in the submenu popping up we may have a "basic phone settings" button replacing the former phone button in main menu, plus another one or more buttons pointing to our own 'new' setting-screens | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I might prepare a mockup | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so we have someting to look at | 17:33 |
| kerio | yeah, yeah, i figured | 17:33 |
| kerio | so... put the current Phone applet inside a button inside a new Phone applet | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 17:34 |
| kerio | yo dawg, i heard you like settings | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | " open 'settings' -> click 'phone'" becomes " open 'settings' -> click 'phone' -> click 'basic'" | 17:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since " open 'settings' -> click 'phone'" now opens a sub-menu which has only 2 or more buttons, nothing else | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think it's not too ugly, and bearable regarding UX change | 17:38 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 waves | 17:40 | |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: did you upload microb-engine? | 17:40 |
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| ivgalvez | woah, this is getting funnier every day | 18:48 |
| ivgalvez | I want settings panel to decide which version of Qt I want to use | 18:48 |
| ivgalvez | :D | 18:48 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: still no, sorry, have to take care for my daughter for a while :D | 18:50 |
| freemangordon | will do it in 1-2 hours | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: please stop trolling. You ever seen "want to make firefox your standard browser?" on your PC? | 18:51 |
| ivgalvez | that's useful for selecting between really different applications | 18:52 |
| ivgalvez | i.e. Firefox vs Opera | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, as different as firefox vs MSIE, sure | 18:52 |
| ivgalvez | or whatever | 18:52 |
| ivgalvez | but camera2ui is supposed to be a replacement to original camera | 18:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, sure, the differences between nicocam and stock are for sure not large enough to give user that choice. But WTF are we bothering about nicocam at all then? | 18:53 |
| ivgalvez | to choose which camera application you want to use there is camera-lens-launcher | 18:53 |
| ivgalvez | that's useful to select between let's say ABC or camera-ui | 18:54 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: exactly, why we bother with CSSU at all PR 1.3 is the best thing after the discovery of the sliced bread | 18:55 |
| freemangordon | *next best | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: either one or the other | 18:55 |
| ivgalvez | if you are proposing to integrate camera-lens-launcher features into CSSU, then I'm in | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's exactly what the picker thingie is all about | 18:55 |
| ivgalvez | then you only need to put camera-lens-launcher in CSSU | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for the rest we don't need to make nicocam conflict with nokiacam | 18:56 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: why not shortcutd then? | 18:56 |
| ivgalvez | camera-lens-launcher is clear | 18:57 |
| freemangordon | isn't it better/more configurable? | 18:57 |
| freemangordon | aah, ok | 18:57 |
| ivgalvez | and it's only related to lens-launcher | 18:57 |
| ivgalvez | you know one daemon one feature | 18:57 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: wait, why is it a daemon? | 18:57 |
| ivgalvez | it has a drawback though | 18:57 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: but it is deffinitely not a CSSU candidate, as it can hapily live in extras | 18:57 |
| ivgalvez | for sure | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since it's a both I guess | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | botch* | 18:58 |
| kerio | also, CSSU has the power (and the will) to clean up stuff like that | 18:58 |
| ivgalvez | if you don't select a default application to launch when you open the camera cover but you want to show the picker | 18:58 |
| freemangordon | kerio: CSSU is a project, development is done by developers ;) | 18:58 |
| ivgalvez | it takes a bit of time to load the picker | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed, we won't import a botch done because there was no CSSU to deal with stuff the right way | 18:58 |
| ivgalvez | because it's not preloaded at start | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aah well, I guess that's a runtime thing then | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | monitoring dbus, or whatever | 19:00 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05: that's right | 19:00 |
| kerio | so... a botch | 19:00 |
| kerio | a *huge* botch | 19:00 |
| kerio | ew | 19:00 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: going to upload microb-engine in my home directory | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically yes | 19:00 |
| ivgalvez | no, basic camera does the same | 19:01 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: nope | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, but the picker as suggested by me doe NOT do that | 19:01 |
| kerio | killall camera-ui and then open the lens cover? | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | camera-default picker simply edits a symlink | 19:01 |
| ivgalvez | that's really ugly | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's really correct way | 19:02 |
| kerio | huh, it appears ivgalvez is actually right | 19:02 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: we has a minor problem | 19:02 |
| ivgalvez | changing symlinks to select which application are yyou launching? | 19:02 |
| kerio | the one that listens to lenscover open is actually camera-ui | 19:02 |
| ivgalvez | exactly | 19:02 |
| kerio | i mean, it's not a *big* problem | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 19:03 |
| kerio | but still | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I hope nicocam as well | 19:03 |
| ivgalvez | yes it also does that | 19:03 |
| kerio | you have to make sure to kill the old camera-ui and start the new one in daemon mode when you change the camera ui | 19:03 |
| kerio | and yeah, it's nicocam too | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and this camera-lens-launcher too, so it might be third in the picker's list of default apps | 19:04 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: it's becoming a bigger mess over time, btw | 19:04 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: come on man, I wasted almost an year to give n900 some more free RAM, now what, you are searching for fillers? | 19:04 |
| ivgalvez | camera-lens-launcher works out of the box | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no way we'll make camera-lens-launcher the default app to preload on every boot, unconditionally and mandatory | 19:05 |
| ivgalvez | it already allows to select whcih application must be launched as you suggested | 19:05 |
| ivgalvez | or to show a picker in runtime | 19:05 |
| ivgalvez | you don't need that to be preloaded | 19:06 |
| ivgalvez | it already allows you to select which application should be launched, however, if you don't want to launch an application, but show the picker, you can as well | 19:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we might have a closer look into it | 19:06 |
| freemangordon | well, I have another idea | 19:06 |
| ivgalvez | that picker is what is not preloaded | 19:06 |
| ivgalvez | and so it's not as fast as it would be desirable | 19:07 |
| freemangordon | put nicocam in -stable and provide a chooser via -extras | 19:07 |
| ivgalvez | but I think that this application is already doing what you propose plus the extra picker at run time | 19:07 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: ^^^ | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: we already decided to make nicocam optional(-alternative) | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iirc | 19:08 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, take a closer look to that application, it seems pretty nice to me | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :- | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ) | 19:08 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: might be, in extras-to-be | 19:08 |
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| freemangordon | but as there are still no extras-to-be and noone knows when there will be, while nicocam is in -testing for several moths with no bugs reported (afaik) so it can be assumed stable | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: there've been more users than just me who frowned at replacing nokiacam unconditionally | 19:10 |
| freemangordon | and all of the use n900? | 19:10 |
| freemangordon | and CSSU-testing? | 19:11 |
| kerio | woah wtf something upgraded the metapackage | 19:12 |
| kerio | oh, neat, -thumb15 | 19:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and no, in my book nicocam is not stable yet, since it introduces instability on my system it seems. So if I don't see a way to opt-out of nicocam, I think it's introducing regressions to users of CSSU-S that can't get cured | 19:12 |
| freemangordon | kerio: guess who | 19:12 |
| kerio | freemangordon: but... it's brok :C | 19:12 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: sorry, it seems I have missed the "instabilities" part, would you elaborate? | 19:13 |
| freemangordon | kerio: what is broken? | 19:13 |
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| kerio | can't upgrade or distupgrade it | 19:13 |
| kerio | because of the 0cssu0 thing, i think | 19:13 |
| kerio | hrmpf | 19:13 |
| kerio | let me see if HAM behaves more nicely | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | DSP "segfaults", and yes you'll gonna tell me that's unrelated to nicocam, but unless you explain to me what else is causing this instability in DSP I've never encountered before, I tend to blame nicocam nevertheless | 19:14 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: stock kernel? | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 19:14 |
| kerio | freemangordon: wtf, your metapackage depends on a strict version? :c | 19:15 |
| freemangordon | kerio: yes | 19:15 |
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| kerio | Depends: libnspr4 (= 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1) but 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+cssu0-thumb0 is to be installed | 19:16 |
| kerio | are those versions even in the repos? | 19:17 |
| freemangordon | kerio: NFC, it could be that merlin1991 has broken the repo somehow, going to check | 19:17 |
| freemangordon | they should be | 19:17 |
| kerio | both HAM and apt complain | 19:17 |
| kerio | hm, apparently they're there | 19:17 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: ping | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: anyway it seems we agreed on making optional whatever possible, I.E. as long as it's not fixing a bug in stock maemo5 that can't get fixed in any other way, we don't want to force something on user if we as well can make it optional(-alternative). Seems this pretty exactly describes nokiacam vs nicocam sitation | 19:18 |
| kerio | no, no, apt-cache policy claims they're there | 19:18 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: nicocam fixes at least one long standing bug in stock camera-ui | 19:19 |
| freemangordon | a severe one | 19:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is this bug any relevant for other system parts that DEPEND on it being fixed? | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cause then nicocam would get pulled in via MP dependency | 19:20 |
| kerio | freemangordon: it appears that you guys thoroughly screwed the versioning on this one | 19:20 |
| kerio | installing specific versions works, though | 19:20 |
| kerio | sudo apt-get install microb-engine=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 microb-engine-common=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnss3=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnss3-certs=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnspr4=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 | 19:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or - better - dependency in the package that depends on the bug being fixed | 19:21 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: it would have to be a dependency in the user | 19:21 |
| kerio | the user depends on the camera | 19:21 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: Bug 7062 , you judge it | 19:22 |
| povbot_ | Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/7062 Video camera does not record smoothly | 19:22 |
| kerio | freemangordon: apt will almost never willingly downgrade a package | 19:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, the user gets optional-alternative (at least, if not plain optional) nicocam package. So if he doen't feel comfortable with this "bug2 (whatever it is) he can install a better alternative of his liking | 19:22 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: ping | 19:22 |
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| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: then we should make every package in CSSU optional | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically that's the idea | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are a few that can't go optional | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly when other mandatory system stuff depends on the package being fixed or providing a changed API | 19:24 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: pong | 19:24 |
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| kerio | so... we don't fix bugs that only affect **the user**? | 19:25 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: something loks broken in -thumb repo | 19:25 |
| freemangordon | *looks | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the idea is user can "tag" the whole cssu-extras group of optional packages and install them all, or select any arbitrary subset | 19:25 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: could you be a tad more precise? | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freedom of choice, you know :-) | 19:26 |
| kerio | merlin1991: the change in versioning requires apt to willingly downgrade packages | 19:26 |
| kerio | which is something that it'll *never* do | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | never force the user to use anything that as well can be optional | 19:26 |
| kerio | not even with the exact version request from the metapackage | 19:26 |
| freemangordon | apt-get tries to install 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+cssu0-thumb0 instead of microb-engine-common (= 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 | 19:26 |
| kerio | no, it doesn't try to install it | 19:26 |
| kerio | it's already installed | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | non-optional package would e.g. be any arbitrary system that corrupts filesystem | 19:27 |
| kerio | so requests to downgrade it are ignored | 19:27 |
| kerio | but it's no big deal, just sudo apt-get install microb-engine=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 microb-engine-common=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnss3=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnss3-certs=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 libnspr4=20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or something hogging CPU | 19:27 |
| merlin1991 | hm there is some do plz downgrade option for apt iirc | 19:27 |
| freemangordon | kerio: have in mind you're not the only one to use -thumb repo | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or messing up whole system or parts of system in another unbearable way | 19:27 |
| freemangordon | kerio: i think there are some users of -thumb that can't find their ass using both hands | 19:28 |
| kerio | well then they shouldn't use software explicitly marked as TESTING | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freedom-of-choice rule may get relaxed on any patch obviously not introducing any change whatsoever to UX | 19:28 |
| freemangordon | kerio: irrelevant | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and as well not introducing unpredictable new risk | 19:29 |
| kerio | freemangordon: regardless, the only option you have is to correctly bump the versions | 19:29 |
| kerio | freemangordon: so that the new version is higher than 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+cssu0-thumb0 | 19:29 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: yeah you'll have to bump the version in some way, debian approach ususally is to add an epoch to fix version problems | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cssu-estras got invented just to make you happy with all that stuff that otherwise had a hard time making it into cssu-core (aka mandatory, or MP) | 19:30 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: ok, you do it for -testing, o'll do it for -thumb. will build both and will upload -testing version in my home directory | 19:30 |
| freemangordon | will ping you when ready | 19:30 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: for -testing we won't need the bump | 19:30 |
| merlin1991 | there was no microb-engine in testing yet | 19:31 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: I know, I want to keep -testing and -devel in sync | 19:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I think it's not fair to now start arguing about "but it's still not there completely, and probably never will" - hewlp getting it done instead, FFS! | 19:31 |
| kerio | wait, there's a microb-engine in -devel? | 19:31 |
| freemangordon | kerio: no, there is no | 19:31 |
| freemangordon | (hmm, is it correct to say that in English?) | 19:32 |
| kerio | "no, there is not" or "no, there isn't" | 19:32 |
| freemangordon | thanks :) | 19:32 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: k well build them and I use them :) | 19:33 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: you want me to increase versions of both -thumb and -testing? ok, just give me the exact version for -testing as you want it to be | 19:34 |
| kerio | freemangordon: are these just rebuilds of the same version? :c | 19:35 |
| kerio | laaaaaaaaaaaame | 19:35 |
| freemangordon | sure | 19:35 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: what's the version in -devel? | 19:35 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: there is no microb-engine in -devel | 19:35 |
| merlin1991 | ah oops, -thumb :D | 19:36 |
| freemangordon | :D | 19:36 |
| freemangordon | just a second | 19:36 |
| freemangordon | microb-engine-common (= 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 | 19:36 |
| kerio | anyway, i suggest 20100401-1.9.2-5.2-20120904+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 | 19:36 |
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| kerio | that's less than 20100401-1.9.2-5.3+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1 and more than 20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+cssu0-thumb1 | 19:37 |
| freemangordon | kerio: 20100401 is mozilla release date | 19:37 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: make that 1:20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0 for testing and 1:20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumbsomehting for -thumb | 19:37 |
| freemangordon | or baseline or whatever | 19:37 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: ok | 19:37 |
| kerio | merlin1991: 1:? | 19:38 |
| merlin1991 | epoch | 19:38 |
| freemangordon | yep | 19:38 |
| merlin1991 | 1: > than anything but 2: | 19:38 |
| kerio | but... | 19:38 |
| kerio | you screw over versioning forever, like this | 19:38 |
| merlin1991 | kerio: we have a version clash, and the debian way to fix that is to add an epoch in the front | 19:38 |
| freemangordon | kerio: it is invented for situations like current AFAIK | 19:38 |
| kerio | add the epoch right before the clash, instead! | 19:39 |
| kerio | meh, do whatever actually | 19:39 |
| kerio | so you'll just have to keep 1: in front of the version from now on? | 19:39 |
| merlin1991 | yep | 19:39 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: "source version is 1:20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1" | 19:43 |
| freemangordon | ok? | 19:43 |
| merlin1991 | yep | 19:45 |
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| freemangordon | merlin1991: ping | 20:24 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: pong | 20:24 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: you should delete microb-engine from ther repo :( | 20:24 |
| merlin1991 | again import fail? | 20:24 |
| freemangordon | reprepro ignores the epoch | 20:24 |
| freemangordon | yep | 20:24 |
| * merlin1991 bitch slaps reprepro | 20:24 | |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: done | 20:25 |
| freemangordon | didn't help :( | 20:26 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: same error, check inotcoming | 20:27 |
| merlin1991 | err where did the epoch go? | 20:28 |
| merlin1991 | Will call action reprepro for: microb-engine_20100401-1.9.2-5.2+0m5+0cssu0-thumb1_armel.changes | 20:28 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: afaik epoch is not included in the name | 20:29 |
| freemangordon | open .changes file, it is there | 20:29 |
| merlin1991 | gotta remeove the tracking for microb-engine | 20:29 |
| merlin1991 | gimme a sec | 20:29 |
| freemangordon | ok | 20:30 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: t try now | 20:32 |
| freemangordon | k | 20:32 |
| freemangordon | seems ok :) | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: actually you got a good point regarding default-app-picker needs to become a separate new package. Otherwise shit becomes unmaintainable | 20:34 |
| freemangordon | lemme check if I can update through HAM | 20:34 |
| merlin1991 | apt-worker afaik handles epochs properly | 20:35 |
| freemangordon | yep, just to be sure | 20:35 |
| freemangordon | and after all it is supposed I am bold enough to install it on my "production" device if I expect the others to install it too :D | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehe | 20:37 |
| freemangordon | no, really | 20:37 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | so after I finnaly accepted better rationale regarding packaging of picker, we might go ahead considering what this means for shipping nicocam as optional package without picker included. I'm not averse to ship it optional for S when it doesn't conflict with nokiacam, I.E. doesn't uninstall that. just please make that symlink point to nicocam binary rather than replacing symlink by binary | 20:40 |
| freemangordon | kerio: "Operating system successfully updated" | 20:41 |
| merlin1991 | dang luf upload rtcom async already :D | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: how's MP supposed to be handled regarding such optional packages like nicocam that doesn't conflict with nokiacam? would both packets provide cameraui and apt simply checking if one of both already installed? | 20:44 |
| merlin1991 | atm we have no dependencies on nokia* stuff | 20:45 |
| merlin1991 | so mp simply wouldn't change | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mhm | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cool :-) | 20:45 |
| _ade_ | ping merlin1991 | 20:45 |
| merlin1991 | _ade_: here | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so our MP just pulls in stuff we want to distribute, right? | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the mandatory stuff | 20:46 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: yes MP pulls in system upgrades that have to be installed | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sweet | 20:46 |
| _ade_ | merlin1991: you know the subject: the replacement clock... ivgalvez brought it up. What are the short and long term options? | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | _ade_: we should get your pkg as cssu-extras optional-alternative into next cssu-t | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ham can't handle that yet, so users have to use apt-get until that changes | 20:48 |
| merlin1991 | short term we can always ship the package in cssu-devel so that people can install it via apt, long term we'll see it in -testing with all the proper quirks | 20:48 |
| _ade_ | should it uninstall clock-ui, how should it work? | 20:49 |
| merlin1991 | the long term version yes, and I guess the short term verison aswell | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, if merlin thinks it needs some quarantine time in cssu-devel and some testing before it goes to T, fine with me | 20:49 |
| merlin1991 | _ade_: what's the package name currently | 20:50 |
| _ade_ | there is no package at the moment, just the binary | 20:50 |
| _ade_ | And I am not a deb guru... | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's why we talk ;-) | 20:51 |
| merlin1991 | ah okay so I'll have todo some packaging in order to get this up, k :) | 20:51 |
| _ade_ | That would be nice. Aapo has done some packaging before | 20:51 |
| freemangordon | and we can put that in -devel | 20:51 |
| freemangordon | as soon as it has .deb | 20:52 |
| merlin1991 | yeah so I'll look into the packaging stuff as soon as I've got this -testing release sorted out | 20:52 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 20:53 |
| _ade_ | merlin1991: you have experience with qmake stuff? | 20:53 |
| merlin1991 | _ade_: I fight with make/qmake/cmake/autotools on regular basis :D | 20:55 |
| _ade_ | good to hear ;-) | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | condolences ;-) | 20:55 |
| merlin1991 | and ofc debhelper also likes to throw some stones into my way | 20:55 |
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| merlin1991 | though it's far easier to manage :P | 20:55 |
| freemangordon | well, we have several Qt projects in CSSU, should be relatively easy to tweak some of them | 20:56 |
| _ade_ | merlin1991: So you can to manage yourself with the sources in git? That would make like easier for me | 20:56 |
| merlin1991 | _ade_: when I do the packaging fun I'll have to rearrange the source a bit, but I'll try to move everything into a src/ directory so that it stays close to the old system for you | 20:57 |
| freemangordon | the fuck, git clone microb-engine takes ages :( | 20:57 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: you don't have to reclone each time | 20:58 |
| merlin1991 | git clean -df && git reset --hard achieves the same | 20:58 |
| _ade_ | merlin1991: Note that I also made a version with a new feature: specific date support, but I did not put that in git for now. Maybe it could get there later, after some more testing | 20:58 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: I know, but patching failed | 20:58 |
| freemangordon | and I don;t want to push broken source in -testing | 20:59 |
| freemangordon | :) | 20:59 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: that's what the reset --hard part is for ;) | 20:59 |
| freemangordon | just in case, you know | 20:59 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: it does not clean the remnants of untracked files | 20:59 |
| merlin1991 | git clean -df removes all untracked files | 20:59 |
| freemangordon | hmm, thanks :D | 21:00 |
| freemangordon | didn't know that | 21:00 |
| merlin1991 | just bear in mind if you have a .gitignore file git clean ignores those aswell | 21:00 |
| freemangordon | ok | 21:00 |
| merlin1991 | so in that case you need rm .gitignore && git clean -df && git reset --hard :D | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | _ade_: support for date format according to... err locale setting would be very welcome | 21:03 |
| _ade_ | DocScrutininzer05: it does | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 21:04 |
| freemangordon | _ade_: which Qt did you use to test that with? stock or CSSU? | 21:04 |
| _ade_ | CSSU | 21:04 |
| freemangordon | ok | 21:04 |
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| freemangordon | merlin1991: could you merge that https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-desktop/merge_requests/25 | 21:10 |
| _ade_ | merlin1991: I also made a dutch translation for the orientation mode applet. Could you accept my merge request? | 21:11 |
| merlin1991 | I will | 21:12 |
| freemangordon | _ade_: aren't you able to commit? | 21:15 |
| freemangordon | _ade_: sorry, misread | 21:15 |
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| freemangordon | merlin1991: microb-engine is ready, uploading under /home/freemangordon/microb-engine | 21:59 |
| freemangordon | not tested though, both devices are on -thumb | 21:59 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: did you clean the old files? | 21:59 |
| freemangordon | I did clone ;) | 22:00 |
| merlin1991 | no i mean on the server, because you've uploaded the earlier files aswell | 22:00 |
| freemangordon | yes | 22:00 |
| freemangordon | the were in the same place | 22:00 |
| freemangordon | *they | 22:00 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: still uploading, will ping you when ready | 22:01 |
| merlin1991 | okay | 22:01 |
| kerio | freemangordon: are there any actual changes to that? | 22:03 |
| kerio | or is it just a version change? | 22:03 |
| freemangordon | kerio: "that" is what? | 22:05 |
| arcean | hi merlin1991 | 22:05 |
| kerio | the repackaging of the -cssu0 into -0cssu0 | 22:05 |
| arcean | merlin1991, I have a merge request https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-desktop/merge_requests/25 | 22:05 |
| freemangordon | arcean: hehe | 22:05 |
| freemangordon | 21:09 <freemangordon> merlin1991: could you merge that https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-desktop/merge_requests/25 | 22:06 |
| arcean | :) | 22:06 |
| kerio | freemangordon: meh, whatever, i'll update anyway | 22:06 |
| merlin1991 | [20:12:37] <merlin1991> I will | 22:06 |
| freemangordon | :D | 22:06 |
| arcean | ok, thank you :D | 22:06 |
| kerio | freemangordon: you could've just told people to fix it manually, btw | 22:06 |
| freemangordon | kerio: you now have libcurl3 and microb rebased to correct source code | 22:07 |
| freemangordon | in -thumb | 22:07 |
| freemangordon | kerio: naah, it is not how you should treat yout "customers" | 22:07 |
| freemangordon | *your | 22:07 |
| freemangordon | never | 22:07 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: upload completed | 22:08 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: thanks | 22:08 |
| freemangordon | np | 22:08 |
| freemangordon | kerio: after all it is my fault. And it is easy to be fixed. On the other hand - just imagine what will do noobs on TMO when they won't be able to upgrade | 22:10 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: would you just share the final upgrade list, so I can put the same in -devel | 22:16 |
| freemangordon | sorry, not -devel but -thumb | 22:16 |
| kerio | freemangordon: will merlin1991 keep the versions matched, btw? | 22:27 |
| freemangordon | kerio: what versions? | 22:28 |
| kerio | for the stuff that entered cssu-thumb first, in cssu-stable and cssu-testing | 22:28 |
| freemangordon | -stable is different beer. -testing should have the same versions, without -thumbN suffix | 22:29 |
| freemangordon | kerio: also have in mind -thumb is based on latest RELEASED -testing | 22:29 |
| freemangordon | so it depends on me to put the correct versions in next -thumb upgrade | 22:29 |
| freemangordon | hmm, which reminds me to check Qt | 22:30 |
| kerio | anyway, +1 for correct upgrade | 22:32 |
| kerio | do i have to reboot now? i really don't want to :c | 22:32 |
| freemangordon | hmm, we might have a problem with Qt | 22:32 |
| freemangordon | kerio: yes | 22:32 |
| kerio | but i already installed the updated versions | 22:32 |
| kerio | the one with the botched version numbers | 22:32 |
| kerio | *ones | 22:32 |
| kerio | meh, fine | 22:33 |
| freemangordon | kerio: it is up to you | 22:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | btw this TV settings thingie is rather nice, apart from the puzzling initial state of the enable checkbox | 23:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so, seems to work, seems it seen some time in T "quarantine", no objections for S from my side | 23:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno if it's the thingie or my TV that blows chunks on scale=100% | 23:12 |
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| kerio | blows chunks how?= | 23:29 |
| kerio | ? | 23:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | black screen | 23:32 |
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| kerio | does it work at 95? | 23:39 |
| kerio | also wtf does scale do' | 23:39 |
| kerio | ? | 23:39 |
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