| *** FireFly has quit IRC | 00:01 | |
| *** FireFly has joined #maemo-ssu | 00:01 | |
| *** andre__ has quit IRC | 00:42 | |
| *** zeq has quit IRC | 01:09 | |
| *** zeq has joined #maemo-ssu | 01:23 | |
| *** zeq has quit IRC | 01:59 | |
| *** _xnt14 has quit IRC | 02:29 | |
| *** _xnt14 has joined #maemo-ssu | 02:33 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 03:00 | |
| *** nox- has quit IRC | 03:24 | |
| *** arcean has quit IRC | 03:52 | |
| *** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo-ssu | 03:58 | |
| *** amiconn_ has joined #maemo-ssu | 05:52 | |
| *** amiconn has quit IRC | 05:52 | |
| *** amiconn_ is now known as amiconn | 05:52 | |
| *** LaoLang_coo_ has joined #maemo-ssu | 08:14 | |
| *** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC | 08:17 | |
| *** M13 has joined #maemo-ssu | 08:34 | |
| *** angelangle has joined #maemo-ssu | 09:13 | |
| *** angelangle has quit IRC | 09:15 | |
| *** kgu has quit IRC | 09:16 | |
| Estel_ | kerio, defrag on device with hardware wear leveling? Are You kiding me?;) | 10:16 |
|---|---|---|
| Estel_ | kidding* | 10:16 |
| Estel_ | lol @ kiding*. something related to kid, probably | 10:16 |
| kerio | Estel_: huh... defrag on ext3, yes | 10:17 |
| Estel_ | freemangordon, how is life in CSSUland? | 10:17 |
| kerio | aka defrag on a perfect block device | 10:17 |
| Estel_ | kerio, Your logical filesystem get fcked up by physical filesystem via hardware wear levelling ;) | 10:17 |
| kerio | notice how i said /home and not / | 10:17 |
| Estel_ | i.e got spread on eMMC anyway | 10:17 |
| kerio | but... it's perfect! :C | 10:18 |
| Estel_ | sure, 256 NAND doesn't have hardware wear levelling, so You rely on ubifs for that. but opt and home is on eMMC and hardware wear leveller is implemented transparently | 10:18 |
| Estel_ | i.e. no way to turn it off, in the world | 10:19 |
| Estel_ | (turning off would be beneficial for TrueCrypt, but You can't do it on eMMC nor SD cards) | 10:19 |
| Estel_ | (which is lame, btw) | 10:19 |
| kerio | beneficial performance-wise or security-wise? | 10:19 |
| Estel_ | security, only | 10:19 |
| kerio | well, if there's no way to access the raw flash... | 10:20 |
| Estel_ | it's about fact, that if You overwrite You encrypted partition - for any reason - old chunks are still spread on physical device | 10:20 |
| Estel_ | if You use same password than before (when re-creating encrypted partition, for example0, You actually aid cryptography | 10:20 |
| kerio | hm, i wonder if the emmc supports "discard" | 10:20 |
| Estel_ | attack | 10:20 |
| Estel_ | of course it's not trivial to retrieve such chunks, and would require physical access to flash | 10:21 |
| Estel_ | no, it doesn't | 10:21 |
| Estel_ | well, I've mentioned other cases where hardware wear levelling is PITA in TrueCrypt annoucement thread | 10:21 |
| Estel_ | in FAQ | 10:21 |
| Estel_ | generally, it's nothing critical, just require to avoid doing some things, or, if feel paranoic, overwriting rest of eMMC with 0 or 1, when You're changing truecrypt'ed partitions/containers layout :P | 10:22 |
| Estel_ | generally, all of wear-levelling vs TrueCrypt concerns are quite on "paranoia" level, i.e. no need to worry about it if You're encrypting personal photos, etc | 10:22 |
| Estel_ | but definitelly worth following if You're oppositionist in Iran, for example | 10:23 |
| kerio | [relevant xkcd here] | 10:23 |
| Estel_ | especially considering, how Irani fckd' up "web of trust" & gmail, via ssl certificate crisis with digi-something | 10:23 |
| Estel_ | and by "fckd up" I don't mean "breakage", rather "fckd in ass" | 10:24 |
| Estel_ | it's funny, bTw, that actually, firefox helped to reveal borked certificate authority | 10:25 |
| Estel_ | at least this behemot memory usage was used, once, to do good :P (sadly no, as it wasn't related to resources usage, at all) | 10:25 |
| *** freemangordon has quit IRC | 10:25 | |
| *** freemangordon has joined #maemo-ssu | 10:26 | |
| Estel_ | what concerns me, though, is that for 3 days I'm asking merlin1991 about status of busybox-power for CSSU - just about decisions, not implementation status - and reply is just quiet and lonely space | 10:26 |
| Estel_ | seems that no other ways, than starting "show" in mailing list/TMO :( | 10:27 |
| freemangordon | Estel_: can you imagine merlin1991 is on holiday with very bad internet access? | 10:27 |
| Estel_ | sure | 10:27 |
| Estel_ | that woudl explain things a lot :) | 10:27 |
| freemangordon | well, wait him caome back, ok | 10:27 |
| freemangordon | ? | 10:27 |
| Estel_ | of course. Wasn't he just back, 2 days ago? | 10:27 |
| Estel_ | 3 days ago* | 10:28 |
| freemangordon | no, he wasn't, read the logs | 10:28 |
| Estel_ | my bad, then :) | 10:28 |
| Estel_ | and no worry, I'm just "little" dissapointed, that one CSSU maintainer said one thing, and another one - quite inactive normally, if You ask me - denies it in TMO thread | 10:28 |
| Estel_ | resulting in 3 pages of discussion in otherwise productive busybox-power thread | 10:29 |
| freemangordon | afaik merlin1991 is in greece, spain, or some other sunny place | 10:29 |
| Estel_ | no hostile intentions here, just curious :) | 10:29 |
| * Estel_ is jealous | 10:29 | |
| freemangordon | don't be, it is too hot there :P | 10:29 |
| Estel_ | BTW, once You've said that DocScrutinizer05 isn't CSSU maintainer. Few days ago he linked me to garage page, where he is listed as maintainer, said that it's the case for more than a year, or longer | 10:29 |
| Estel_ | freemangordon, hehe. We have few rainy dais ahead, here | 10:30 |
| freemangordon | that page? https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cssu/ | 10:31 |
| Estel_ | what I'm pissed about, is just information havoc. Also, it turned out, that busybox-power isn't "installable from extras without hassle", as it's, in fact, postinst script with binary replacement. *only* other possible - and proper - way would be to add it via CSSU, as it's critical systemk component | 10:31 |
| Estel_ | freemangordon, yes | 10:31 |
| Estel_ | this page | 10:31 |
| kerio | Estel_: well, not really | 10:32 |
| freemangordon | well, he is admin on THAT page ;) | 10:32 |
| kerio | make a repo, call it "busybox" | 10:32 |
| Estel_ | kerio, make a repo? seriously? CSSU is repo for such things :) | 10:32 |
| kerio | and make sure the version is higher than the other busyboxen | 10:32 |
| Estel_ | and "make a repo" doesn't fail into "installable from extras" | 10:32 |
| Estel_ | freemangordon, well, suspected something fishy | 10:32 |
| freemangordon | see, I want merlin1991 back before continuing that discussion, ok? | 10:32 |
| Estel_ | sure | 10:32 |
| Estel_ | wanted to propose exactly same thing | 10:32 |
| freemangordon | hold your horses then :P | 10:33 |
| Estel_ | no need to add into information mess around CSSU :) | 10:33 |
| freemangordon | no need to make unnecesarry noise | 10:33 |
| kerio | freemangordon: are you kidding me | 10:34 |
| kerio | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7B-AlKTdGQ | 10:34 |
| Estel_ | one good thing fromt his whole mess - many people got interested about CSSU and way it's maintained. Maybe, just maybe, ages long idea of "steering group" for cssu will got revived, at some point | 10:34 |
| Estel_ | more and more devels and users would benefit from knowing what can be expected, and what not | 10:34 |
| Estel_ | kerio, wanna blow up my speakers? | 10:34 |
| freemangordon | but to be clear - CSSU maintainers are MohammadAG(CSSU-T), merlin1991(CSSU-S CSSU-T(backup) and chem|st (CSSU-S) | 10:34 |
| kerio | about half of RFUS is unnecessary noise | 10:35 |
| Estel_ | freemangordon, thanks a lot for that clarification | 10:35 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, lol | 10:35 |
| kerio | freemangordon: and freemangordon(CSSU-Th)! | 10:35 |
| freemangordon | kerio: no | 10:35 |
| kerio | :( | 10:35 |
| freemangordon | CSSU-thumb is not "official" CSSU | 10:35 |
| freemangordon | otherwise, yes, I am the one who upload stuff there :D | 10:36 |
| freemangordon | *uploads | 10:36 |
| kerio | (: | 10:36 |
| freemangordon | the point is - don't put -thumb and CSSU in one place until there is a need to do so ;) | 10:37 |
| kerio | Estel_: btw, blowing up speakers is what that song is supposed to do | 10:38 |
| kerio | well, kinda | 10:38 |
| freemangordon | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLgporKLnpA | 10:42 |
| chem|st | Estel_: ? | 10:49 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, sorry for pinging, You were only mentioned | 10:50 |
| Estel_ | see full context - I was just surprised, as I wasn't aware of You being actively contributing to CSSU in any way, for a long time (haven't confirmed it, just feeling, thus my comment - excuse me if it's not true) | 10:50 |
| Estel_ | kerio, see query | 10:51 |
| kerio | i lost the query \_o_/ | 10:51 |
| kerio | my client is stupid | 10:51 |
| kerio | i just hoped it wasn't important | 10:51 |
| Estel_ | wasn't at all, will re-send it anyway :P | 10:55 |
| Estel_ | freemangordon, fuck! I just noticed that my work on CSSU-T wiki page wasn't saved, what the f? Probably browser hickup | 10:58 |
| Estel_ | have backup, will fix it ASAP | 10:59 |
| Estel_ | sorry, I was sure it's up and running hapilly | 10:59 |
| Estel_ | for a few days, actually | 10:59 |
| Estel_ | CSSU-T as in CSSU-Th, sorry | 10:59 |
| chem|st | Estel_: well I come from alpha testing and some of the early stages of MohammadAG's stuff past my device like "would someone mind to test that real quick? - reflash" | 11:12 |
| chem|st | Estel_: and now I will grow some balls and take over stable! HA | 11:12 |
| chem|st | I am not very good in doing bugreports as I like to talk to devils in irc instead of filing it properly... but that is from being used to alpha-testing... there were no such thing as bugtracking apart of a spreadsheet | 11:14 |
| chem|st | Estel_: and btw it is again your attitude that makes people mad at you, I for one ignore it for a long time now, but laughing at people whom actually did some more than just talking is nuts | 11:16 |
| *** Estel_ is now known as dxgxcg | 11:17 | |
| chem|st | *facepalm* | 11:17 |
| *** dxgxcg is now known as Estel_ | 11:17 | |
| Estel_ | chem|st, peace, it wasn't offensive, just stating facts, and only when you've asked :) | 11:18 |
| chem|st | you pinged me... | 11:18 |
| chem|st | I did not ask! | 11:19 |
| Estel_ | I feel it strange, when someone not related to project for a looooong time - and as You said Yourself, You were never really into CSSU thing - is listed as maintainer. that'sd all, it doesn't offend You. | 11:19 |
| Estel_ | Until you're (clearly) overreactive about Your ego. | 11:19 |
| Estel_ | no, never pinged You | 11:19 |
| Estel_ | commented during discussion | 11:19 |
| Estel_ | mentioning someone's nick != pinging | 11:19 |
| Estel_ | so take a deep breath and relax :) | 11:20 |
| Estel_ | BTw, out of curiosity, if You are here, already - once You've mentioned, that You're able to dissasemble and assemble back again n900 in 20 minutes (as answer to me, speaking about time required to put back again flip-flop mechanism of N950 - You though, that I was talking about N900) | 11:21 |
| Estel_ | I have asked You - out of curiosity - why it takes You so long? | 11:21 |
| Estel_ | you've never answered, though | 11:21 |
| Estel_ | i'm just curious, which part is most bitchy for most people (of assembling device) | 11:22 |
| Estel_ | as ussually, it takes 5-7 minutes to dissasemble and assemble, including screen (2 minutes depends on screen connector, which can be tricky, even for trained people) | 11:22 |
| chem|st | the domesheet is an ass | 11:23 |
| chem|st | all the shielding boxes | 11:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (([2012-08-31 09:34:53] <freemangordon> but to be clear - CSSU maintainers are MohammadAG(CSSU-T), merlin1991(CSSU-S CSSU-T(backup) and chem|st (CSSU-S))) ---- excatly, and those decide on their peer&steering-group, and - like it or leave it - they don't listen to estel with his bitching | 11:24 |
| chem|st | if disassambling does not inlcude those it is those 8 screws off those some clips of and everything back together again | 11:24 |
| chem|st | that was what I did after a wheatbeer attack, I'd guess some minutes? | 11:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw my contribution is to constantly dispute with fools who think THEY are steering group and smarter than those who got a word by merit. | 11:25 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: I love you! | 11:25 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, in fact, I find You mentioning garage page with You being listed as admin - suggesting that it means You're a maintainer - quite cheap | 11:26 |
| Estel_ | but as said, I'll leave it until merlin1991 comes back | 11:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I give a fuck about your definition of maintainer, it's simply irrelevant to CSSU | 11:26 |
| chem|st | I did not follow busybox stuff as I don't give a fuck! | 11:26 |
| chem|st | what does it fix? | 11:27 |
| Estel_ | he, he, so i;ll gladly reffer to "fortunatelly, DocScrutinizer05 isn't maintainer, so all things presented is his private opinion,only, equal to every ordinary CSSU user" in context of busybox-power | 11:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: ONCE AGAIN SOME FOOLS WANT TO MAKE SOMETHING MANDATORY THAT'S *ALREADY* OPTIONAL, JUST FOR THE "BENEFIT" OF ANOTHER 500K OF ROOTFS EASTED | 11:27 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, upstream bugfixes, recent actual busybox version. | 11:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: OOOPS CAPSLOCK, SORRY | 11:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dammit | 11:28 |
| Estel_ | it isn't optional, and You were delibatery spreading FUD about it. It's *not* easily installable from extras. | 11:28 |
| Estel_ | Only one way to replace busybox properly, via package, is CSSU. | 11:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bullshit | 11:28 |
| Estel_ | package in extras use dirty trick, that replaces binary file via postinst script | 11:28 |
| Estel_ | ugly and inneficcient | 11:28 |
| Estel_ | no other way, as it's core system package | 11:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so why do WE care? | 11:28 |
| chem|st | Estel_: that is not realy mandatory if there is nothing in cssu actually needing it capiché? | 11:28 |
| Estel_ | You could distribute whole CSSU via "postinst script that replace binaries", but it's *wrong!* and wrong again. | 11:28 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, reffer to busybox-power release notes, for lsit of fixed bugs | 11:29 |
| Estel_ | list* | 11:29 |
| kerio | *capisc' | 11:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I could kick you for constant trolling | 11:29 |
| Estel_ | we actually have busybox update in CSSU - that adds portrait support to it, sic! | 11:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we could roll an estel cssu distro | 11:29 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: don't let me do it° | 11:29 |
| chem|st | (TM) | 11:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we could eat shit | 11:29 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, sure, you could kick everyone and feel powewr! But it's pathetic, again, everytime You speak about it, during discussion. | 11:29 |
| chem|st | we could make him eat shit o.O | 11:29 |
| Estel_ | and speaks poorly about You | 11:29 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: it's actually just 300k wasted if you use the thumbified version, btw | 11:30 |
| chem|st | Estel_: my browser is stalling... would you mind to state some bugfixes that are really important? | 11:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: thanks! and it's even 90mb saved, if we don't use emacs version | 11:30 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, like it or not, i'mabsolutely sure, that CSSU will progress, witrh thing like busybox-power and - much later - thumb. Well, again, no need to argue, future will tell who was right :) | 11:31 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, sorry, read busybox-power logs Yourself, i'm not Your search engine. | 11:31 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: who booted emacs? | 11:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: so what? maybe you're sure the earth is a disk | 11:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't care | 11:31 |
| chem|st | Estel_: FUCK YOU I JUST STATED THAT MY BROWSER STALLED! | 11:31 |
| Estel_ | well, CSSu would benefit *much* if You would care, actually, in my opinion ;) | 11:31 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, sorry, missunderstanding | 11:32 |
| chem|st | Estel_: ok thank so no facts just wishes... | 11:32 |
| Estel_ | I though it's my browser stalled -> which busybox power bugfix will help with it | 11:32 |
| Estel_ | i.e. as for browser in N900, which is irrelevant | 11:32 |
| chem|st | no here... darn ff | 11:32 |
| Estel_ | sure, wait a second | 11:32 |
| chem|st | updates are progressed for minutes now | 11:32 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, from top of my head, swapon finally support priorities properly | 11:33 |
| Estel_ | waiting 'till page loads :) | 11:33 |
| chem|st | I hate being at work... we have a "no linux" politician upstairs | 11:34 |
| Estel_ | (i.e. setting swap priority on stock busybox was ignored, for no reason, as this parameter was listed in -h) | 11:34 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, other thing from top of my head - proper shell history handling | 11:34 |
| Estel_ | both for multi-instances of x-term | 11:35 |
| chem|st | Estel_: you know that stuff in cssu is meant to go to stable some day... | 11:35 |
| Estel_ | of course | 11:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: if you still haven't groked it, my contribution to CSSU is exactly what I'm doing all the time: keeping overview of the larger perspective, check for stupid ideas and explain why they won't fly, find better alternatives if the original intention has any inherent value. So basically YOU give me tons of workload | 11:35 |
| Estel_ | busybox-power is in fact much older project than CSSU ;) | 11:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? | 11:35 |
| Estel_ | one of msot respected and stable ones | 11:35 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, it's nice, as my contribution to CSSu is explaining whjy You'r arguments are totally made up, biased, and irrelevant. Happy now? :) | 11:35 |
| chem|st | +1 so what? | 11:35 |
| Estel_ | and least we have balance in universe | 11:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: WE DON'T NEED bb-p in cssu. ETX | 11:36 |
| chem|st | cssu is no fancy "power" playground | 11:36 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, as for Your question "chem|st> Estel_: you know that stuff in cssu is meant to go to stable some day..." | 11:36 |
| Estel_ | busybox-power is much more stable than cssu-S, anyway :P | 11:36 |
| chem|st | *sigh* | 11:37 |
| Estel_ | as for other fixes, it's really hard to mention in IRC - just check upstream fixes for busybox, since Maemo's ancient version | 11:37 |
| Estel_ | tons and tons of them. | 11:37 |
| Estel_ | and I mean only fixes, not enchancements. | 11:37 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, busybox-power have -power in name jsut as a kind of pun... | 11:38 |
| Estel_ | but I see that both You and DocScrutinizer05 have problem with things having "power" in name, heh? | 11:38 |
| chem|st | Estel_: maemo is literally sarge crossed with edge and people try to go wheezy with eating parts of squeeze on the way up | 11:38 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, speak what You want - I'm absolutely sure that busybox-power *will* be included in CSSU. Wan't to risk bootle of best beer?:) | 11:38 |
| Estel_ | hehe | 11:39 |
| chem|st | we are trying to let it become squeeze and not sid | 11:39 |
| Estel_ | well, the thing is that busybox-power meet every single smallest criteria/requiments to get into CSSU - upstream bugfixes, well tested, actively maintainer over a years, can't be distributed properly outside CSSU | 11:39 |
| Estel_ | and DocScrutinizer05 is bitching about it only due to personal prefferences | 11:40 |
| Estel_ | thats the point :) | 11:40 |
| Estel_ | fortunately, DocScrutinizer05's influence on CSSU is much lower than he like to thing it is, so i'm absolutely sure it will made it into CSSU, very soon. | 11:40 |
| chem|st | does it benefit cssu now (I am not asking about later I am asking about now!) | 11:40 |
| Estel_ | until that, no much need for arguing, as neither of us (me or DocScrutinizer05) is deciding about it | 11:40 |
| Estel_ | sure | 11:40 |
| kerio | chem|st: how does MHD benefit cssu? | 11:40 |
| Estel_ | but define "benefit" would be great | 11:41 |
| Estel_ | as nothing in CSSU benefit CSSU :P | 11:41 |
| Estel_ | how portrait support benefit CSSU? | 11:41 |
| Estel_ | CSSU is meant to benefit users, not itself | 11:41 |
| chem|st | busybox is not a user benefit | 11:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: you're spamming channel with bullshit. Nobody is interested in your delusions, and we're definitely not amused about your lies | 11:42 |
| Estel_ | stop speaking about "everybody" or "nobody", speak for Yourself | 11:42 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, what? hahaha | 11:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I declare busybox-power as a ban'able subjext in this chan just for you | 11:43 |
| Estel_ | busybox-power - even with current, borked implementation via binary replacement - have more users than cssu | 11:43 |
| chem|st | Estel_: you really expect me to trust you after all the shit you rolled the past 3 month? | 11:43 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, sorry, but I have in certain place, what You declare. | 11:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: | 11:43 |
| kerio | hm, i don't know if that translates well to english | 11:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you've been warnned | 11:43 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, you think that I care if You trust me? Nice from You, but, well... | 11:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | officially | 11:43 |
| chem|st | Estel_: you still do not get the difference | 11:44 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, You're also warned officially. There actually is ongoing process of revieving Your mental ability to be chanop in *any* Maemo channel. Of cours,e due to your constaint threat of kick/ban/whatever pathetic, while You lsoe Your nerves during discussion. | 11:44 |
| Estel_ | just for sake of your contributions to being chanop - get a deep breath, go for a walk... | 11:44 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer05 | 11:45 | |
| Estel_ | and stop this bullshit madness, everyone is free to talk about busybox in context of CSSU. | 11:45 |
| *** Estel_ was kicked by DocScrutinizer05 (don't threat chanops!) | 11:45 | |
| *** BCMM has joined #maemo-ssu | 11:45 | |
| *** Estel_ has joined #maemo-ssu | 11:45 | |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, your power abuse speaks poorly about You, and will be reported. I don't expect fast action, but be ensured, that it will be bounced back to You, sooner or later :) | 11:46 |
| chem|st | Estel_: nice that was actually the first time DocScrutinizer05 kicked someone while I was live and the item was no spambot... | 11:46 |
| *** Estel_ was kicked by DocScrutinizer05 (don't threat chanops!) | 11:46 | |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: stop it please | 11:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok | 11:47 |
| *** Estel_ has joined #maemo-ssu | 11:47 | |
| chem|st | Estel_: hope you took a deep breath out there | 11:47 |
| Estel_ | why so? This conversation is over, won't waste my fingers on this pathetic guy. | 11:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just can't stand that bitchingt anymore, and somebody threating me and ignoring authority of chanops nby "stick it where the sun doesn't shine" makes me angry | 11:48 |
| Estel_ | not that it matters, really, he is as powerless, as he think he is powerful. Or even more the former :) | 11:48 |
| chem|st | Estel_: DocScrutinizer05 would you both mind to stop trolling now? | 11:48 |
| chem|st | setup a channel for it and buy t-shirts... | 11:49 |
| chem|st | Estel_: bb-p will be reviewed for sure but by the calcs of now I doubt it being included next week | 11:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, cannel named "estel's collected lies performed live"? | 11:50 |
| Estel_ | same here, certainly not in next update. | 11:50 |
| Estel_ | AFAIK it's being reviewed actually, merlin1991 is jsut on vacation. It's sad that busybox-power thread was filled with lies, that it's not gonna enter cssu, though. | 11:50 |
| chem|st | we have a bit of work to do next week so better help with that and put everything else aside for now | 11:50 |
| Estel_ | of course You know where those FUD originates ;) | 11:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | counting up on lie counter | 11:51 |
| Estel_ | absolutely agree, no need to haste. All people need is reliable information, and there was much mess about busybox-power state re CSSU. | 11:51 |
| Estel_ | OTOh, merlin1991 officially started revieving it something like week ago. | 11:51 |
| chem|st | it all stopps at my doorstep, and I prefer shoot'em all and let god sort them out | 11:51 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer05 | 11:53 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo-ssu | 11:53 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thanks | 11:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | forgot | 11:53 |
| chem|st | o7 | 11:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wondering if I should leave for my last workday at STE, or rather have a coffee and 'enjoy' IRC a bit more | 11:54 |
| chem|st | ouhuuu last working day, I'd run for it to get it over with | 11:55 |
| chem|st | ff still stalling... | 11:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hey, your key is borked? :-D | 11:55 |
| chem|st | .net framework assistent | 11:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aaah FireFox | 11:56 |
| chem|st | my e key is borked, do you know where I can get a domesheet from? | 11:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: estel had the nice idea to start a thread on tmo to spank cssu maintainers and give them "motivation" | 11:57 |
| chem|st | and would you mind selling or lending me one of your devices? I do not have any luck with ebay | 11:57 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: ? | 11:57 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: or gimme a hand with ebay? | 11:57 |
| Estel_ | in fact, no - I though about getting information about state of CSSu maintaining, how it looks. | 11:57 |
| chem|st | Estel_: your intentions are questionable but the outcome is what counts | 11:58 |
| Estel_ | it started, when some well known egomaniac linked me to garage page with DocScrutinizer05 mentioned in admin list, suggesting, that it means he is maintainer | 11:58 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, I never did it, so I preffer outcome is null ;) | 11:58 |
| Estel_ | all after all, I'm sure merlin1991 will clear all this mess upon returning, as some people went too rogue for civilized people's taste. | 11:59 |
| Estel_ | ...about stating what cssu will and won't be, authoritary, without being a maintainer. Eh, do we really need to continue it here? :) | 11:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: I suggested you should look at that page and grep it for "joerg" and "estel" | 11:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nothing more | 12:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lie counter counting up | 12:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: sure, I can help with ebay, I can lend you one of my devices as well. Or you ask our chief contributor Estel_ to actually stand up and *do* something about cssu and lend you one of his devices | 12:01 |
| chem|st | Estel_: ? | 12:02 |
| chem|st | sighup child problem 4 days ago... so much about stable | 12:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Estel_: yes, I'm sure merlin1991 will politely explain to you the 50th time that you don't understand how cssu hierarchy and merit works, and that there's simply no use in you asking "are you maintainer?" since one thing's for sure: YOU are none | 12:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: o.O | 12:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how did you tell? | 12:05 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, in -devel releasE? | 12:05 |
| Estel_ | seriously? | 12:05 |
| Estel_ | if it what makes package not OK for CSSU, it would be empty repo. | 12:06 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, I shouldn't be even speaking with You about all this egomaniac shit You have just done - but, as before - future will tell, who was right, and I'll be glad to mention it - as history - next time You will authoritary declare what will and what won't be in CSSU. More and more you're doing it, the less reliable source of information you become. People will remember that, when busybox-power will enter CSSU. End of topic, I g | 12:08 |
| Estel_ | uess? | 12:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | blablablablablabla | 12:09 |
| chem|st | Estel_: fyi - https://garage.maemo.org/projects/cssu-stable/ | 12:10 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, it was mentioned, and he is jsut admin on *that* page. | 12:11 |
| chem|st | Estel_: and DocScrutinizer05 is not self-assigned... he was asked for | 12:11 |
| Estel_ | <freemangordon> but to be clear - CSSU maintainers are MohammadAG(CSSU-T), merlin1991(CSSU-S CSSU-T(backup) and chem|st (CSSU-S) | 12:11 |
| Estel_ | well, high time to revoke it, due to his mental state, if he doens't learn to behave... | 12:11 |
| Estel_ | but you're biased toward him, so no point in continuing this discussion, I suppose? | 12:12 |
| Estel_ | I'm just glad, that despite fact, that we don't like each other (me and You, chem|st), we can have a civil talk, without threats of abusing chanop powers, etc | 12:12 |
| Estel_ | It speaks good about You. | 12:13 |
| chem|st | Estel_: it is no abuse if you step over the line... | 12:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which in my book he just did again | 12:13 |
| Estel_ | sorry, "defining" busybox as "ban" topic for certain user, out of ass, is stepping out of the line by chanop, and You know it as well as I. | 12:13 |
| chem|st | sometimes you get me quiet close or get me pondering with a silence spell casted on you | 12:14 |
| Estel_ | especially during merit discussion, where we can disagree, but we shouldn't abuse power. | 12:14 |
| Estel_ | well, I'm glad that reliability wins over personal "dislike" in you, then :) | 12:14 |
| Estel_ | as we don't need to agree, just need to be civil while doing so. It's not popularity contest, after all. | 12:15 |
| chem|st | Estel_: while you are trolling it is ok with me to make it a no go topic for you, bb is reviewed and will be in the future, for now this discussion about bb chanop and you and me having a beer while chatting is over, do you understand? | 12:15 |
| Estel_ | well, for me it isn't, and higher authorities will investigate it - along with other evidence of DocScrutinizer05 abuse (which was already considered valid). | 12:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lie counter counting up | 12:16 |
| Estel_ | in fact, it's You who keep pinging me, while I'm doing other, productive things ;) | 12:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lie counter counting up | 12:17 |
| Estel_ | so no problem with FINALLY ending this embarassing and msierable topic. After all *some8 people might think that they're center of universe, which we don't want, eh? ;) | 12:17 |
| * Estel_ going back to work | 12:17 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lie counter counting up, i'm afraid | 12:17 |
| chem|st | which part of stop it didn't pass your eys? | 12:18 |
| chem|st | you too DocScrutinizer05! I am fed now | 12:19 |
| chem|st | whohoo apple looses again vs sammy (japan this time) | 12:21 |
| kerio | chem|st: what did you eat? | 12:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: I really get fed up with this guy stating lies since a week ar longer now (starting with his claim that merlin allegedly said bb-p will get included in next T...) and ignoring each sane argument why bb-p is not exactly a candidate for cssu at all. Instead he turns discussion into age old BS where he's defining who got 'authority' in cssu, just to continue with insulting me. If all that doesn't seem to make his arguments fly, | 12:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he reverts to lies again, telling my arguments were made up and whatnot | 12:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: did he answer your request to lend you a N900? | 12:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably not, since he likes to ignore any request to actually *contribute* to cssu, rtaher than just ranting and claiming he knows better than those in charge to decide | 12:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh, cya | 12:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually my suggestion he should simply stop his bitching if he was concerned about motivation of cssu crew was no kidding. I feel like this guy eats way too much time in my life, and that makes me feel bad about cssu work | 12:36 |
| chem|st | thanks | 12:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: /query me re N900 lending | 12:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or purchase | 12:40 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: will do | 12:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whatever you prefer | 12:41 |
| chem|st | will have another try with ebay.de and ebay.us | 12:41 |
| chem|st | 2 devices I want one I need... if I get two I can give one to my gf | 12:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: monitor Bluefon24.de offers. They don't have own website it seems, but frequently offer on ebay, under changing names but finally redirecting to bluefon24 | 12:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | their devices are usually good and with warranty | 12:46 |
| kerio | "NOKIA N900 Schwarz" for 189,00€ | 12:48 |
| kerio | what's that supposed to be? | 12:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a black N900? | 12:51 |
| kerio | why is there a "NOKIA N900 Black" for like 50€ more | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like Bluefon | 12:52 |
| kerio | is that the price for the translation? | 12:52 |
| kerio | yeah, yeah, on bluefon24.de | 12:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my two devices were 250EUR iirc, dunno why the price tag differs that much with same reseller | 12:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway both my devices were in "like new" condition, just missing original packaging and accessories except charger | 12:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | one came with wrong type of battery though ;-D | 12:56 |
| kerio | my second n900 was really "like new" | 13:04 |
| merlin1991 | moin | 13:06 |
| merlin1991 | anybody care to point me the right pages in bb-p madness thread? | 13:06 |
| kerio | oh hey, you're back! | 13:06 |
| kerio | hi! | 13:06 |
| merlin1991 | for now :D | 13:06 |
| merlin1991 | I'll be back for real on sunday | 13:07 |
| merlin1991 | ... | 13:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1255699#post1255699 | 13:10 |
| merlin1991 | did people on tmo go full retard? | 13:14 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, it's all about DocScrutinizer05 popping over there and telling them that busybox-power won't be included, because he doesn't like it ;) | 13:14 |
| Estel_ | understand it - informational havoc is worst thing for such situations | 13:15 |
| merlin1991 | I don't know where people got the idea that bb-p is going to be included | 13:16 |
| Estel_ | we have bb-p that *can't* be distributed properly outside cssu (hackish way of binary replacement via postinst script isn't OK), is maintained constantly over the years. includes upstream bug fixes, etc | 13:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, and you're doing your best to run havoc against cssu and info we did or did not give | 13:16 |
| Estel_ | i.e. fullfill all things needed for CSSU | 13:16 |
| merlin1991 | we had the busybox-power maintainer in here some time ago and discussed possible pitfalls if we update the core busybox package with small changes | 13:16 |
| Estel_ | wlel, maybe it's because next CSSU announced update of busybox with Pali's fixes for portrait mode? | 13:16 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, sure, and logical question arised - why cssu update core busybox with small changes, instead of using busybox-power upstream release | 13:17 |
| Estel_ | as it's upstream busybox, essentially. | 13:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, it's because YOU made that up, another lie you're not getting tired to spread | 13:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991 never said bb-p will go into cssu | 13:17 |
| merlin1991 | we didn't *announce* that, and the target was todo exactly what you said, busybox with Palis 1 liner patch | 13:17 |
| Estel_ | DocS, can You shut up, please? We're talking here about things that you, apparently, have no idea about, as shown in TMO thread about bb-p | 13:17 |
| Estel_ | thanks in advance | 13:18 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, OK,, understood | 13:18 |
| Estel_ | so logical question now, again | 13:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2nd warning about getting rude3 | 13:18 |
| Estel_ | if we can update busybox with one liner path for portrait mode support, why can't we merge busybox-p mainstream bugfixes as well? | 13:18 |
| Estel_ | /ignore DocScrutinizer05 | 13:18 |
| Estel_ | damn space | 13:18 |
| kerio | wow, that's not incredibly passive-aggressive at all | 13:18 |
| merlin1991 | Estel_: mainstream update is not a "bugfix" as is | 13:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and lie counter counting up, though it's maybe just poor style and not a lie when you state I got no clue | 13:19 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, since maemo's ancient version, mainstream busybox got TONS of bugfixes | 13:19 |
| merlin1991 | err I meant upstream | 13:19 |
| Estel_ | see busybox changelogs | 13:19 |
| Estel_ | not to mention that iDon'ts work actually affected upstream too, which we should be proud about. | 13:19 |
| *** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo-ssu | 13:19 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: better ignore Estel_ just like he ignores me and probably meanwhile chem|st as well, since we have discussed that shit with him ad nauseum already | 13:20 |
| Estel_ | people are getting really pissed off, by fact that some things are not included into CSSU just because one random guy opposes it in IRc, without merit reasons | 13:20 |
| merlin1991 | Estel_: can you point me to a bugfix in upstream vs maemo that we *need* ? | 13:20 |
| Estel_ | busybox power seems to fullfill *all* CSSU criteria requiments | 13:20 |
| *** LaoLang_coo_ has quit IRC | 13:20 | |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, fix for swapon supporting priorities like it should? | 13:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: no he can't | 13:20 |
| kerio | merlin1991: swapon priorities could be one, but it depends on what "need" means, in the context of CSSU | 13:20 |
| Estel_ | properly handling shell history for multi-terminal instances? | 13:21 |
| kerio | i mean, it's not a user thing | 13:21 |
| Estel_ | + question "do we need upstream bugfixes" is quite ridicolous | 13:21 |
| Estel_ | do we need portrait mode in cssu? | 13:21 |
| Estel_ | do we need any bugfixes at all? well, it works out of the box, so why cssu? | 13:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: a user shell is a user domain issue. No need whatsoever to mess with system stuff to fix anything in it | 13:21 |
| Estel_ | I absolutely understand freemangordon's point of view noews - it's extremely frustrating how CSSu is maintained | 13:22 |
| Estel_ | it seems to be somewhere in-between bleeding-edge updates (portrait) and LTS only shit | 13:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if only he'd get proper consequence and start his own cssu project instead of bitching at us | 13:22 |
| Estel_ | ok, after calming down a little: | 13:23 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, the problem is, that process of decidi9ng what wil lgo into cssu and what not is totally misty | 13:23 |
| Estel_ | not-transparent | 13:23 |
| Estel_ | and both suers and devs can't expect what to do | 13:23 |
| Estel_ | results: we have things like freemangordon's (and other devs too, if You talk with them unoficially) doubts if it's worht the effort | 13:24 |
| Estel_ | worth* | 13:24 |
| *** iDont has joined #maemo-ssu | 13:24 | |
| Estel_ | it's ridicolous, if CSSU would be LTs only - in my udnerstanding, LTS is valid only, if You have "normal" updates in-between. LTS "only" is an oxymoron, you can't have every update LTS. | 13:24 |
| Estel_ | iDont, ncie to see You, we're discussing bb-p, actually :) | 13:24 |
| iDont | Estel_, just read the chanlog, though it would be wise to join :P | 13:25 |
| iDont | s/though/thought | 13:25 |
| Estel_ | continuing my thoughts about it - it's completely not understandable why bb-p shouldn't be included in CSSu, as it's: | 13:26 |
| Estel_ | 1. not distributable via extras by normal means... | 13:26 |
| merlin1991 | Estel_: it's actually quite easy regarding bb-p iDont (afaik) never pushed for it to end up in cssu so the whole question is m00t | 13:26 |
| *** MrPingu has joined #maemo-ssu | 13:26 | |
| Estel_ | ( iDont, thanks a lot, it's definitelly good idea :) ) | 13:26 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, developer need to push something? wtf? | 13:26 |
| Estel_ | with stick, or shovel? | 13:26 |
| Estel_ | I would preffer devels actually coding | 13:26 |
| Estel_ | and CSSu maintainers deciding, what may be good for cSSU to include | 13:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, evidently he prefers when HE decides on that | 13:27 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: I might be wrong here, but I think you never asked for bb-p in cssu? | 13:27 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, CSSu isn't british queen, where people need to ask for audience :( many times users - including me - asked for busybox-power in CSSU. | 13:28 |
| Estel_ | isn't that enough? | 13:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 13:28 |
| Estel_ | also, iDont already mentioned that busybox-power way of replacing busybox is hackish, and proper replacement would require inclusion in CSSU | 13:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since users also ask for pink pony | 13:28 |
| merlin1991 | Estel_: and about "push" we are short on manpower, so we only include things where we have someone who will take care of it in a cssu sense | 13:28 |
| Estel_ | DocSanyway, lets all shut up and let iDont speak ;) | 13:28 |
| *** lizardo has joined #maemo-ssu | 13:28 | |
| merlin1991 | iDont: did you actually ask for bb-p inclusion to cssu? | 13:29 |
| iDont | merlin1991: one sec, searching chanlog. I somewhat did, but that's a very long time ago (before pushing busybox-power to extras-devel), and before CSSU-s | 13:29 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, understandable. that's why I mentioned "constantly maintained over the years". I'm sure that iDont would hapilly maintain bb-p in CSSU, if agreed to include. | 13:29 |
| Estel_ | iDont, but I'm right that binary replacement is hardly "proper" way of distributing it (done as only one alternative for CSSU, that allow easy distribution)? | 13:30 |
| Estel_ | i.e. that it's same type of things, that CSSU already includes, like QT and others? | 13:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "mainaining bb-p" means also maintaining all initscripts regarding compatibility to bb-p, in CSSU context | 13:30 |
| iDont | Estel_: yes, touching another package's binaries is not how Debian intented package management | 13:30 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, stock maemo's initscripts and cssu ones doesn't have problem with busybox-p | 13:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and no, it's obviously not same thing, not even same class of thing | 13:31 |
| iDont | aargh, searching chanlog of maemo takes a while :( | 13:31 |
| Estel_ | it's absolutely same class of thing. | 13:31 |
| Estel_ | iDont, take Your time, no worries | 13:31 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991 - short of manpower is actually valid argument to. that's why people interested in CSSU - that can't code - are trying to help as "activists" - by highlighting things that are good candidates for CSSU, collecting opinions, checking if arguments are valid, etc... | 13:32 |
| Estel_ | it's absolutely unbearable how DocScrutinizer05 sabotages such efforts, as self-maintained "maintainer" of cssu integrity, but that's different topic | 13:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if this guy wouldn't simply answer concerns "X needs attention" with "no, it doesn't, it's OK", his contributions were sometimes a tad usefull | 13:32 |
| Estel_ | which I would like to touch later, to not waste iDont time reading about | 13:33 |
| Estel_ | (in context of busybox-power, it was about DocScrutinizer05 using "it's properly distributed via extras, which is WRONG and false, totally - but please, lets put it into later time) | 13:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pffff | 13:33 |
| merlin1991 | Estel_: if you want to deal with stuff later bring them up later, this way it's just a slap into $persons face which they are not *allowed* to react on | 13:34 |
| iDont | merlin1991, Estel_, see http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2011-04-29.log.html#t2011-04-29T21:48:13, though there wasn't any follow up, and neither did I push for inclusion | 13:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merTHANKS | 13:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: thanks | 13:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | friggin capslock | 13:34 |
| merlin1991 | stop pressing it ;) | 13:34 |
| *** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC | 13:35 | |
| iDont | However, personally, I would like to see busybox-power in CSSU, though it's not up to me to decide | 13:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: too close to tab | 13:35 |
| iDont | I also think we can't really separate the "power" part (i.e. extra features etc) from the upstream part (which I would think suits the CSSU) in busybox-power. | 13:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: it comes with rootfs penalty, so making it mandatory is depriving those users from their freedom-of-choice who rather keep those 500k in / free than getting power extensions | 13:36 |
| iDont | which could pose to be a problem, regarding inclusion guidelines | 13:36 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, if we care about 500k in rootfs, we should switch to thumb immediatelly, in all cSSU | 13:37 |
| Estel_ | this argument is pure sophism | 13:37 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, I agree. Personally, I don't think 500K is much, but indeed, there is also something as freedom of choice. Also see what I just typed (re the power part), which causes the substantial increase in binary size | 13:37 |
| Estel_ | OTOH, other than CSSU, how can we distribute busybox-poweR? | 13:37 |
| Estel_ | as package that replaces binary via script | 13:38 |
| Estel_ | thinking like that, we could distribute whole CSSU like that | 13:38 |
| Estel_ | in extras. | 13:38 |
| Estel_ | iDont, agree? | 13:38 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, I hope You see the point. | 13:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: and, as we already discussed last time we chatted here, busybox is a mission-critical component that should see particularly careful and conservative patches, which need particularly close review and tests | 13:38 |
| Estel_ | only one argument against busybox-power is 500kb (in fact, less than that) rootfs space, and "compatibility with 3rd party scripts that actually relies on bugs" (sic!), courtesy of DocScrutinizer05 | 13:38 |
| Estel_ | which is pure sophism. | 13:39 |
| iDont | Estel_, I agree, but we need to weigh the (dis)advantages of busybox-power vs. messy replacement in postinst | 13:39 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: actually bb-power could be done in cssu in the planned replacement system, it would conflict with regular busybox and replace it but would be a user choice | 13:39 |
| Estel_ | iDont, absolutely correct. But, what disadvantages we have here? where busybox-power presents any regressions? | 13:39 |
| kerio | merlin1991: provide/conflict doesn't handle dependencies for versions correctly, iirc | 13:40 |
| kerio | so you'd have to add busybox | busybox-power to the metapackage and to the other stuff, for instance | 13:40 |
| iDont | merlin1991, but then bb-power would need to depend on CSSU? Also see: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1001182&postcount=12 | 13:40 |
| kerio | iDont: well, not really | 13:41 |
| kerio | but it would break the non-cssu metapackages, and i doubt they'll let you put a package with "Conflicts: busybox" in extras | 13:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lie counter counting up, I never said "3rd party scripts" (what a bullshit in fact), it's about genuine initscripts, which this guy again either ignores or is too dull to grok | 13:41 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: well basically it's a question of where you want to see busybox-power, if you want it on *every* device we obviously can't do it via cssu it has to stay in extras then, if you'd like it to be included in cssu we'd probably go with a conflicts: busybox scheme which works fine because the busybox-power package would be in the cssu repo, not in extras | 13:43 |
| iDont | merlin1991, when I started busybox-power, I could either make it only available to CSSU users via a clean way (as you describe), or to everyone via binary replacement. I chose the latter, since CSSU was very new then | 13:46 |
| iDont | I'm all for freedom-of-choice, and don't want to force busybox-power on anyone just for the sake of it being widely used | 13:46 |
| iDont | or something like that | 13:46 |
| iDont | Se basically we need to make the same descision regarding distribution again | 13:47 |
| merlin1991 | well we could preserve the freedom of choice even within cssu | 13:47 |
| iDont | Do you have any figures regarding how widely CSSU is deployed? | 13:47 |
| merlin1991 | sadly not | 13:48 |
| kerio | iDont: well, people interested in unixy stuff won't have problems with it, i hope | 13:49 |
| iDont | Hmm, I'm thinking all possibilities regarding packaging & distribution over, bear with me please | 13:51 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: busybox power is your project, we're not going to suddenly include it over your head into cssu because $user wants it there, on the other hand if you wish to see it there we'll use a way to keep freedom of choice | 13:51 |
| merlin1991 | and also you have all the time in the world to decide I want this in cssu :) | 13:52 |
| chem|st | cssu-extras? | 13:53 |
| kerio | you wouldn't even need a separate repo, actually | 13:54 |
| merlin1991 | chem|st: yep, it's going to arrive (at some point) | 13:54 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: that is what I meant by "give the user a choice and have cssu remain cssu and not a fancy-power-island" | 13:56 |
| kerio | just put busybox-power in the repos, but make it Provide and Conflict busybox | 13:56 |
| kerio | although maybe the metapackage will get confused if you do so? \_o_/ | 13:56 |
| iDont | kerio, IIRC that would break Nokia's metapackage | 13:56 |
| kerio | but not the CSSU one, if we change it | 13:56 |
| iDont | yes, but then we would need a split package, i.e. busybox-power and busybox-power-cssu, which I would like to avoid | 13:57 |
| kerio | i don't know if that would break things wrt the cssu installation though | 13:57 |
| iDont | kerio, that's busybox-power's resposibility (to not break anything) ;) | 13:58 |
| chem|st | we could have cssu-meta call for busybox >= cssu version and you just need to make sure to have your powerversion higher | 13:58 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: cssu removes the nokia metapackage, so in case you choose to push it into cssu you don't have to worry about that part anymore | 13:58 |
| iDont | merli1991, but that's the whole issue: that would exclude non-cssu users | 13:59 |
| kerio | chem|st: hm, how does Provides work with stuff like that? | 13:59 |
| merlin1991 | chem|st: we could simply do cssu-meta depends busyboy >= cssusomething | busybox-power >= somehting | 13:59 |
| kerio | does it take the version of the package with the provision? | 13:59 |
| chem|st | iDont: nope you still can provide it as a bin-replacement for non-cssu | 13:59 |
| merlin1991 | provides is fsckd | 13:59 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: I do not want -power in cssu | 14:00 |
| merlin1991 | ? | 14:00 |
| kerio | chem|st: wait, why? not even as a reference to a cssu-extras project? | 14:00 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: I want to provide the option to have -power in cssu just installed without dirty hacking | 14:00 |
| iDont | chem|st, I don't see how that's possible without a separate busybox package (one that does binary replacement for non-cssu, and one that does a clean install to /bin/busybox, for CSSU) | 14:00 |
| *** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu | 14:00 | |
| chem|st | the one in cssu needs to have a higher index | 14:01 |
| iDont | that might actually work, in the same way as the -thumb version does now | 14:02 |
| *** ivgalvez has joined #maemo-ssu | 14:02 | |
| iDont | I haven't thought about that at all | 14:02 |
| chem|st | hmm well yes you need two differnt install scripts... | 14:02 |
| iDont | that's not an issue for me, as long as the user only sees one package | 14:02 |
| chem|st | uh that reminds me of outdated apt right | 14:02 |
| chem|st | if they have cssu installed they see the cssu package as the version is higher than in extras | 14:03 |
| kerio | now, upgrading from the old-style to the new-style... | 14:03 |
| chem|st | kerio: nope old style stays | 14:03 |
| kerio | that could be kinda painful | 14:04 |
| iDont | merlin1991, do you have any ETA on this cssu-extras repository? | 14:04 |
| kerio | chem|st: yeah but if and when we add the good-form busybox-power with the same name, people with the old-style busybox-power will be prompted to upgrade | 14:04 |
| kerio | and the new package will conflict with busybox | 14:04 |
| MrPingu | Maybe I am too simple why not pushing busybox with CSSU? I mean bbp is just a upstreamed busybox right? | 14:04 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: it's not a repository but lives within the cssu repo, and nope no eta | 14:04 |
| kerio | MrPingu: oh you | 14:04 |
| iDont | merlin1991, doh, of course | 14:05 |
| MrPingu | Kerio: Hi :) | 14:05 |
| chem|st | nope, as long as the cssu version of bb and bb-p are higher than bb-nokia bb-p | 14:05 |
| kerio | iDont: well, for instance busybox-power is already a package in the community-thumb repository | 14:05 |
| iDont | kerio, yes :). I completely forgot about the same mechanism for CSSU | 14:05 |
| chem|st | kerio: that does not harm does it? | 14:05 |
| kerio | chem|st: nope, it's completely unrelated | 14:05 |
| kerio | but it *can* be unrelated, it's just the same as extras | 14:05 |
| chem|st | kerio: they get prompted for an upgrade that does only provide the right package structure | 14:06 |
| kerio | if eventually we decide to make it conflict with busybox, stuff could break wrt metapackage | 14:06 |
| iDont | kerio, re upgrading from old busybox-power to cssu busybox-power: busybox-power uninstalls cleanly, so that won't pose to be an issue ;) | 14:06 |
| kerio | iDont: yeah but it's uninstalled together with busybox (nokia) | 14:06 |
| kerio | meh, i suppose that it would work | 14:06 |
| chem|st | kerio: the cssu version will conflict... the extras version not | 14:07 |
| chem|st | iDont: would that be suitable for you? | 14:07 |
| kerio | bb-p uninstalls, puts old /bin/busybox back, then bb uninstalls, then bb-p new is installed | 14:07 |
| iDont | chem|st, most certainly :) | 14:08 |
| iDont | I am and always was for freedom-of-choice. I just didn't see a alternative to inclusion in CSSU until now | 14:08 |
| chem|st | kerio: bb-p from extras gets a break for cssu installer... | 14:08 |
| iDont | an alternative* | 14:08 |
| chem|st | and I sidenote | 14:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | btw just for a tiny bit of self-glorification (to counteract this constant "Doc's not contributing" BS): it's been me who suggested/pushed cssu-s, it's been me who 'invented' optional packages in CSSU | 14:09 |
| kerio | chem|st: a break? | 14:09 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: we know... captain obviouse ;) | 14:10 |
| kerio | sorry, i can't parse what you just wrote | 14:10 |
| chem|st | kerio: sry | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not all know that, obviously | 14:10 |
| kerio | chem|st: oh, you mean that it would be uninstalled by community-ssu-installer? | 14:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's at least one guy who's constantly insulting me on the basis he never realized it | 14:10 |
| chem|st | kerio: cssu installer will install new package of bb, then there will be an upgrade available for bb-p | 14:11 |
| chem|st | uh that will brake | 14:11 |
| chem|st | iDont: uninstall overwrites bb right | 14:11 |
| chem|st | again | 14:11 |
| kerio | chem|st: yeah but it gets upgraded right afterwards | 14:12 |
| kerio | so it's no big deal | 14:12 |
| iDont | chem|st, yes. Everything is restored to pre-bbpower situation | 14:12 |
| kerio | besides, uninstall only changes /bin/busybox if it matches the checksum | 14:12 |
| kerio | if it's been changed, it's left alone | 14:12 |
| chem|st | but there is no pre bb-p situatiuon after installing cssu | 14:12 |
| chem|st | ah ok | 14:13 |
| chem|st | good | 14:13 |
| merlin1991 | chem|st: you also have to think of the update where we introduce anything bb-p realted | 14:13 |
| merlin1991 | cssu is "installed" at that point so you do have a situations of bb-p after installing cssu | 14:13 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: yes I know | 14:14 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: one at a time | 14:14 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, well, personally I agree with Estel_. I do think busybox-power would be a good fit for the CSSU. The main counter argument is theoretical breakage, which hasn't been experienced during busybox-power's lifetime. However, I do think that an optional package is always preffered. I just didn't see any way to achieve the latter until now :) | 14:14 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: I was thinking of new installation of cssu first - then upgrading | 14:14 |
| iDont | preferred* | 14:14 |
| iDont | Anyway, we got ourselves a solution now, so we can leave this discussion behind :) | 14:15 |
| Estel_ | iDont, that's why I was "advocating" busybox-power for CSSU, considering that devs have better thing to do than "lobbying", even for good case. | 14:15 |
| chem|st | the same thing will happen to cameraUI and other shit | 14:15 |
| iDont | Estel_, appreciated, though probably not by all ;p | 14:16 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: those ussd stuff patches you were talking about | 14:16 |
| chem|st | *# things | 14:16 |
| kerio | and the fukken cbsms widged | 14:16 |
| MrPingu | I didn't understand that :P I thought: CSSU includes upstreamed busybox -> Done | 14:17 |
| chem|st | kerio: +1 | 14:17 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: I'm not sure which solution you mean :D | 14:17 |
| Estel_ | it's ridicolous, that package need to be "advocated" toget into cssu, BTW, but that's different thing | 14:17 |
| Estel_ | MrPingu - busybox-power is upstream busybox | 14:17 |
| Estel_ | problem is that some people in CSSU seems to have philosophical problems about "do we need updates at all?" | 14:18 |
| MrPingu | Estel_: I am talking about buxybox including in CSSU | 14:18 |
| iDont | merlin1991, including a busybox-power variant in CSSU as optional package, in contrast to a completely separate busybox-power-cssu package | 14:18 |
| Estel_ | OTOh, people like DocScrutinizer05 are trying to put CSSU into stagnated, LTS-only (oxymoron!) thing | 14:18 |
| Estel_ | MrPingu, same here ;) | 14:18 |
| chem|st | Estel_: when you keep talking BS like this you will loose your space in this channel... | 14:18 |
| MrPingu | Estel_: My thoughts were, | 14:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, it's Estel_ who tries to transform cssu into bleeding-edge for the packages *he* prefers | 14:19 |
| MrPingu | Estel_: Why was that oxymoron part needed, really? | 14:19 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, why the hell some things - like portrait support - enter cssu without problems, and some other - essential, clean, and well tested, not distributable via "normal" extras-means - just like busybox-power -have so much trouble doing so?> | 14:19 |
| Estel_ | MrPingu, was needed, as there is no such thing as LTS only | 14:19 |
| Estel_ | LTS by definition is release *between* normal releases | 14:19 |
| Estel_ | there is no such thing as LTS only, but DocScrutinizer05 openyl advocated CSSU becoming one. thats why it's oxymoron. | 14:19 |
| Estel_ | LTS only means "stagnation", just with prettier name. LTS, by definition, means to be stable "anchor" between more experimental features. Later, those features enter another LTS. | 14:20 |
| Estel_ | aka long-term-support | 14:20 |
| chem|st | Estel_: enough! | 14:20 |
| MrPingu | Estel_: IMO it wasn't neeeded to, I mean the message is clear even without oxymoron... | 14:20 |
| Estel_ | why someone want project to become LTs-only is beyond me | 14:20 |
| merlin1991 | Estel_: that's easy to answer, because it was people inside cssu doing portrait | 14:20 |
| Estel_ | MrPingu, not for everyone, as it seems :P | 14:20 |
| MrPingu | Estel_: It only makes people angry on you... | 14:21 |
| Estel_ | thats why freemangordon is thinking if CSSU is worth effort at all, IMO | 14:21 |
| Estel_ | merlin1991, so put iDont "inside" CSSU as busybox-power maintainer | 14:21 |
| Estel_ | problem solved | 14:21 |
| Estel_ | after all, no one in CSSU is maintaining everything | 14:21 |
| Estel_ | and IIRC, iDont said aloready dozens of times, that he would hapilly maintain busybox-power for CSSU | 14:21 |
| chem|st | Estel_: we just made clear how it is going to happen now you come and want it in another way | 14:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2012-08-31 13:08:33] <iDont> I am and always was for freedom-of-choice. I just didn't see a alternative to inclusion in CSSU until now | 14:22 |
| Estel_ | if there is viable alternative to including busybox-power in CSSU, that don't require dirty hacks like binary replacement in posinst, I'm all for it. | 14:22 |
| MrPingu | Anway what I wanted to say (don't shoot me, just my thoughts): | 14:22 |
| Estel_ | it's CSSU loss, after all | 14:22 |
| *** M13 has quit IRC | 14:23 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | stop suffering *OUR* headaches! | 14:23 |
| Estel_ | if only for the reason, that people like me won't need to be frustrated by how CSSU is maintained in long-term :P | 14:23 |
| MrPingu | Just put busybox with higher version number in CSSU repo and upgrade seems fine, doesn't it? | 14:23 |
| iDont | MrPingu, yes, that's what we're going to do | 14:23 |
| MrPingu | Ofcourse that doesn't give users a choice | 14:23 |
| chem|st | Estel_: topic is over! bb-p will find its place in cssu-extras... how that is going to happen is not on your call | 14:23 |
| *** andre__ has joined #maemo-ssu | 14:23 | |
| *** andre__ has joined #maemo-ssu | 14:23 | |
| iDont | MrPingu, CSSU will depend on either busybox or busybox-power, so that would give the user freedom of coise | 14:24 |
| Estel_ | chem|st, fine, so go away now and let us talk :) | 14:24 |
| Estel_ | as we're not even sure if cssu-extras will *ever* happen. | 14:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: that's again a ban'able insult | 14:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in my book | 14:24 |
| MrPingu | Estel_: That go away part wasn't needed | 14:24 |
| MrPingu | Estel_: Don't get angry on me but you say mean things that aren't needed to get the message past | 14:25 |
| Estel_ | DocScrutinizer05, so ban me, and stop boring, ok? I'm really tired of Your pathetic, childish behavior with all those "Imma powerful chanop, phe4r me!" idiotic threats. I swear, that it's last time I reffer to it in any way, as it's not even worth lifting single finger. | 14:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this guy is trolling every single day for last weeks err months, and using up our time we better spent discussing real stuff | 14:25 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o merlin1991 | 14:26 | |
| *** Estel_ was kicked by merlin1991 (Der Kindergarten ist woanders!) | 14:26 | |
| *** arcean_ has joined #maemo-ssu | 14:26 | |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: -o merlin1991 | 14:26 | |
| kerio | woanders? | 14:26 |
| ivgalvez | badabum | 14:26 |
| chem|st | another place | 14:26 |
| merlin1991 | auto kick msg of quassel | 14:26 |
| MrPingu | woanders -> Somewhere else ;) | 14:26 |
| kerio | meh, it fits | 14:26 |
| iDont | merlin1991, to wrap things up on a high level: 1) CSSU metapackage will depend on either busybox or busybox-power 2) I'll create a new , separate busybox-power package for CSSU repo *the way it should have been (i.e. no dirty tricks)* 3) regular busybox-power will remain in maemo's extras for non-cssu users | 14:27 |
| MrPingu | iDont: Let's say I have install CSSU-Testing will that mean I get automatically an updated busybox? | 14:27 |
| iDont | merlin1991, ack? | 14:27 |
| ivgalvez | iDont that sounds great | 14:28 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: ack, but for sake of always having proper busybox-power in cssu we have to use a slightly higher verions in cssu ie +proper or whatever :) | 14:28 |
| kerio | MrPingu: yes-ish - on the next busybox-power upgrade you'll be prompted (by apt?) to uninstall busybox due to a conflict | 14:28 |
| *** arcean has quit IRC | 14:28 | |
| merlin1991 | MrPingu: no won't | 14:28 |
| kerio | merlin1991: hm, isn't + for stuff outside of the version number? | 14:28 |
| kerio | MrPingu: that is, if you have busybox-power already | 14:29 |
| iDont | MrPingu, yes, the end-user won't notice any difference versus the old situation ;) | 14:29 |
| chem|st | kerio: no | 14:29 |
| MrPingu | You guys are confusing me | 14:30 |
| chem|st | kerio: well yes... (need to read all lines...) | 14:30 |
| iDont | merlin1991, yes, I'll make sure that the cssu variant will have a modified version string | 14:30 |
| chem|st | MrPingu: you won't get bb-p by default on cssu | 14:30 |
| *** LaoLang_cool has joined #maemo-ssu | 14:30 | |
| MrPingu | I see | 14:30 |
| kerio | iDont: hm, this thing with the names is full of possible pitfalls | 14:31 |
| chem|st | if you had bb-p installed you will be prompted for an upgrade | 14:31 |
| iDont | kerio, what are your concerns? | 14:31 |
| kerio | bb-p-extras and bb-p-cssu are upgraded together, but updating from one of the repos fails | 14:32 |
| kerio | and a cssu user ends up with the extras version for a bit | 14:32 |
| kerio | it's not fatal by any means, mind you | 14:32 |
| kerio | but it's boring | 14:32 |
| chem|st | kerio: ? | 14:32 |
| kerio | chem|st: extras will have a package called busybox-power too | 14:32 |
| iDont | kerio, there will be only one busybox-power package, but there will be two seperate versions of it. The CSSU version will have higher priority over the regular package for non cssu users | 14:32 |
| iDont | You can't have non-cssu version and cssu version installed at the same time | 14:33 |
| kerio | iDont: yeah but you have to make sure that cssu users' apts will be constantly aware of that | 14:33 |
| chem|st | kerio: extras-testing has one extras-devel has one so what? | 14:33 |
| *** ivgalvez has quit IRC | 14:33 | |
| *** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu | 14:34 | |
| *** arcean_ has quit IRC | 14:34 | |
| chem|st | kerio: apt-get update? | 14:34 |
| chem|st | I don't get your concern it does not matter if bbp from extras is installed | 14:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: that's what merlin1991's pending work about cssu-ham and optional pkgs is all about | 14:34 |
| chem|st | if cssu is installed there is the cssu repo with a newer version that will uninstall the hacky one and install a proper bb replacement | 14:35 |
| iDont | kerio, think of the -thumb situation. Didn't bb-power's thumb version got installed as an upgrade over the non-thumb version a few days ago, even though it was the same version (minus the -thumb part)? | 14:36 |
| iDont | CSSU busybox-power > extras busybox-power | 14:36 |
| kerio | iDont: well, that's a good example actually | 14:37 |
| kerio | you released an update a few days ago, right? | 14:37 |
| iDont | Yes | 14:37 |
| kerio | freemangordon didn't immediately release that one too | 14:37 |
| kerio | and my apt prompted me to install the one from extras-devel | 14:37 |
| kerio | i mean, it's not a big deal | 14:37 |
| kerio | but it can happen if the versions aren't in sync | 14:37 |
| kerio | (then, when he released the same update too, it prompted me to upgrade to *that* version - the same, but with -thumb0) | 14:38 |
| iDont | kerio, that's a very good point indeed. We'll have to make sure CSSU version get's updated _before_ extras' version | 14:38 |
| iDont | luckily, that's entirely in our control :) | 14:38 |
| kerio | heh, it's the same server, too | 14:39 |
| *** MrPingu has quit IRC | 15:02 | |
| freemangordon | well, what worries me, is the time frame in which "cssu-extras" will be available | 15:33 |
| freemangordon | talking started few months ago, but I am not aware of any progress | 15:34 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: so the question about estimated time is pretty reasonable, it does not make sense iDont to write a pile of install scripts if we expect cssu-extras by june 2013 :P | 15:36 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991, chem|st: Why obexd and stuff are allowed to enter CSSU(not cssu-extras), but busybox is not? | 15:37 |
| iDont | freemangordon, I thought busybox-power would live in relevant cssu repositories, just like busybox-power lives in cssu-thumb? | 15:37 |
| iDont | <merlin1991> iDont: it's not a repository but lives within the cssu repo, and nope no eta | 15:38 |
| freemangordon | iDont: we need updated HAM in order it to work as planned, otherwise you (or me) should use apt-get to install | 15:38 |
| freemangordon | but CSSU's official installer is HAM, not apt-get ;) | 15:39 |
| kerio | freemangordon: why? | 15:39 |
| kerio | busybox-power would just be a package | 15:39 |
| *** merlin1991 has left #maemo-ssu | 15:39 | |
| kerio | and it's already installable via HAM | 15:39 |
| *** merlin1991 has joined #maemo-ssu | 15:40 | |
| merlin1991 | ffs | 15:40 |
| iDont | heh | 15:40 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: hi | 15:40 |
| kerio | merlin1991: chat comfortably! anywhere! | 15:40 |
| iDont | :-D | 15:40 |
| merlin1991 | kerio: it would use conflict: something which in ham only throws the use pc-suite to update error | 15:40 |
| kerio | oic | 15:40 |
| kerio | ...well, that would've been nicer to know earlier :/ | 15:40 |
| kerio | meh, i'm perfectly fine with requiring people to install busybox-power with apt | 15:41 |
| kerio | i mean, it's a fucking shell anyway | 15:41 |
| freemangordon | kerio: that is not how it should be | 15:41 |
| kerio | why not? plenty of packages don't even appear in HAM anyway | 15:42 |
| kerio | and i really don't see another way | 15:42 |
| iDont | kerio, I'm not, my priorities include not to exclude anyone from using it. Although I prefer apt-get > HAM as well | 15:42 |
| kerio | apart from using a separate installer | 15:42 |
| *** MrPingu has joined #maemo-ssu | 15:42 | |
| freemangordon | kerio: because you (and me) have no clue what is the user base | 15:42 |
| freemangordon | ;) | 15:42 |
| kerio | freemangordon: one could argue that that behaviour in HAM is a bug | 15:42 |
| kerio | because what the fuck were they thinking, really | 15:43 |
| kerio | :s | 15:43 |
| kerio | even **cydia** handles those more gracefully | 15:43 |
| freemangordon | irrelevan, we can't tell CSSU users to use apt-get | 15:43 |
| freemangordon | irrelevant even | 15:43 |
| MrPingu | iDont: Did you manage to fix that bug in bb-p hxka pointed out? | 15:45 |
| * freemangordon is afk for a cigarette | 15:45 | |
| iDont | MrPingu, yes, but I need to test my patch more extensively | 15:46 |
| MrPingu | Goed :) | 15:47 |
| iDont | Only problem is, that signal handling is a touchy area in shells, and I haven't got any real experience in that area. So therefore the extensive tests (although the patch is relatively small) | 15:48 |
| MrPingu | I see :) | 15:49 |
| iDont | freemangordon, merlin1991, if I could get any follow up on (the ETA of) cssu-extras, that would be great. No rush though, as the current way of distributing busybox-power does the job fine, dirty or not | 15:52 |
| merlin1991 | iDont: I'll let you know as soon as I have anything | 15:53 |
| freemangordon | chem|st, merlin1991: I'll rephrase my question - according to what criteria upstream versions of obexd, curl, dosfstools, etc., etc., are good for CSSU, bu upstream version of busybox is not? | 15:53 |
| merlin1991 | somebody there who's doing the job :D | 15:54 |
| merlin1991 | till now I didn't see much intention from iDont to get busybox into cssu | 15:54 |
| merlin1991 | ah you mean why still doing it optional? | 15:55 |
| freemangordon | iDont: correct? | 15:55 |
| kerio | freemangordon: well, bb-p *adds* a lot of stuff | 15:55 |
| freemangordon | kerio: curl too | 15:55 |
| freemangordon | NFC for obexd, but almost sure it adds lots of stuff too | 15:55 |
| iDont | well, personally I do like to see busybox-power in CSSU. However, I think optional installation is better regarding freedom of choice. Especially since inclusion seems to be so highly controversial | 15:56 |
| freemangordon | yeah, controversial :D | 15:56 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: yes, that was my point. | 15:57 |
| kerio | oh right, obexd adds a bunch of stuff wrt car integration, right? | 15:57 |
| freemangordon | and curl adds only luf knows what :) | 15:57 |
| merlin1991 | well curl / obexd are not that important core system component though | 15:58 |
| freemangordon | curl no core component? try to remove it :P | 15:58 |
| merlin1991 | true though that the why and how is hard to argue | 15:58 |
| MrPingu | Actually I agree with freemangordon, if bb-p is good why not include it the simple way? | 15:59 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: we cannot act based on personal preferences though | 16:00 |
| merlin1991 | afk, lunch | 16:00 |
| kerio | MrPingu: because there's no reason to | 16:01 |
| kerio | much like cbsms-widget | 16:01 |
| freemangordon | enjoy your meal, gather some power and come back :P | 16:01 |
| kerio | although that's a bit different, because it's FUCKING BROKEN AS HELL | 16:01 |
| MrPingu | but cbsms has been included... | 16:01 |
| kerio | while busybox-power has no known regressions, apart from that minor one | 16:01 |
| kerio | MrPingu: in testing | 16:01 |
| kerio | and it'll be removed once cssu finds a process to include optional packages | 16:01 |
| freemangordon | kerio: and what is the reason for obexd and curl then? | 16:01 |
| kerio | freemangordon: beats me | 16:01 |
| MrPingu | Yeah but I guess we are always talking about testing? I mean it won't go directly to stable without testing ;) | 16:02 |
| MrPingu | freemangordon: completed my argumentation ;) | 16:03 |
| freemangordon | see, we should apply the same criteria for all of the packages, fuzzy evaluations like "core system component" are meaningless | 16:03 |
| freemangordon | but i'd rather wait merlin1991 back | 16:03 |
| kerio | freemangordon: but busybox-power has "power" in its name! | 16:04 |
| freemangordon | iDont: I just need straight answer if you want upstream busybox in CSSU or not, i.e. will you maintain it. Forget about freedom of choice for a while :P | 16:05 |
| freemangordon | kerio: well, we'll change it to busybox-weakness if needed :P | 16:06 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: what are you arguing? | 16:07 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: I am trying to find what is the criteria for package inclusion in CSSU, see may question above | 16:07 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: if you want something in cssu that needs bbp then depend on it! | 16:07 |
| iDont | If CSSU's scope clearly states that upstream components are a valid reason for inclusion in CSSU, then yes, because I'll have a valid argument for inclusion then. | 16:08 |
| iDont | ^freemangordon | 16:08 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: what in CSSU depends on obexd and curl? | 16:08 |
| freemangordon | (upstream versions) | 16:08 |
| chem|st | does it add mission critical things? nope | 16:08 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: libcurl?! facebooklogin | 16:09 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: yes, but why upstream? | 16:09 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: cause that was the one working?! | 16:10 |
| iDont | But even if upstream versions would be a valid reason, what about the -power part in busybox-power? Will that part be preserved (e.g. the extra features vs. stock BusyBox)? I prefer not create a *new* busybox-power if upstream busybox would be included in CSSU, but without power features | 16:10 |
| chem|st | iirc it was looking for a version that has the patch and is working... | 16:10 |
| freemangordon | wrong, what is in CSSU is -26, the one we tried was 25 | 16:10 |
| freemangordon | (iirc) | 16:10 |
| freemangordon | and what about obexd? what is ther system critical functionality it adds? | 16:11 |
| chem|st | whoohou 25-26 is what sorry I am so bad in math "1"? | 16:11 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: the problem with busybox-power is what iDont said, which modules do we compile if we include upstream code? | 16:11 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: you start like estel now?! | 16:12 |
| merlin1991 | updated obexd has better support for car kits, simple as that | 16:12 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: curl (7.26.0-1maemo1+0cssu1) unstable; urgency=high | 16:12 |
| merlin1991 | regarding curl, yeah that's vague | 16:12 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: naah, dont do that | 16:12 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: ;) | 16:12 |
| merlin1991 | but usually upstream should be ok, only in case of ie busybox we have the problem of the all in one which yields the question which parts do we really want? | 16:13 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: not the upstream fact is slowing the progress... the bare fact that it is compiled with more options | 16:13 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: well, i might be wrong (or simply misunderstood something), but it was told that busybox-power is actually upstream busybox | 16:13 |
| kerio | "screw you guys, i'll start my own cssu! with busybox and hookers! in fact, forget cssu and busybox!" | 16:14 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: we had the same for curl iirc | 16:14 |
| kerio | freemangordon: busybox is heavily configurable at compile-time | 16:14 |
| kerio | to include or exclude modules | 16:14 |
| merlin1991 | + nokia patches, yeah but only that busybox has a basillion switches for ./configure | 16:14 |
| freemangordon | kerio: ^^^ | 16:14 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: nope bbp is upstream + lots of functions activated | 16:14 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: aah, ok, my bad then | 16:14 |
| freemangordon | then we should remove obexd too | 16:15 |
| merlin1991 | ie less is disabled in stock busybox | 16:15 |
| freemangordon | as obexd adds carkti supprt, which does not exists in stock obexd | 16:15 |
| merlin1991 | well it is there, somehow, mostly broken | 16:16 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: stop trolling! | 16:16 |
| merlin1991 | it even works with *some* car kits | 16:16 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: what? | 16:16 |
| chem|st | "remove this and that" it is in there now live with it | 16:16 |
| merlin1991 | guys can we get back to ground zero? | 16:17 |
| chem|st | please | 16:17 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: monday evening ok with you? | 16:17 |
| freemangordon | well, I could ban myself easily, no need someone to do it | 16:17 |
| chem|st | merlin1991: I will be off all weekend | 16:18 |
| *** freemangordon has left #maemo-ssu | 16:18 | |
| merlin1991 | jesus, has everyone gone mental today? | 16:18 |
| chem|st | yes | 16:18 |
| merlin1991 | chem|st: should be ok | 16:18 |
| iDont | freemangordon, if you're interested, check the OP of busybox-power's thread at TMO. It lists all new applets (tiny implementations of various tools) it introduces vs. the stock busybox package. Besides new applets, it also extends functionality of existing applets (e.g. Ctrl-R reverse history search in shell, swapon with priorities support, and _lots_ more) | 16:19 |
| kerio | iDont: he left | 16:20 |
| iDont | kerio, woops, missed that | 16:20 |
| kerio | he quit irc :s | 16:20 |
| iDont | brb | 16:20 |
| merlin1991 | just for the record I was actually more talking to chem|st regarding gorund zero | 16:20 |
| kerio | ground zero? | 16:21 |
| chem|st | ? | 16:21 |
| merlin1991 | calm state, common ground, no insulting madness, whatever you wanna call it | 16:21 |
| kerio | weed land | 16:22 |
| kerio | :D | 16:22 |
| *** LaoLang_cool has quit IRC | 16:23 | |
| *** freemangordon has joined #maemo-ssu | 16:50 | |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: just for the record - I did not quit because your "ground zero" :) | 16:51 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: I'm sorry, estel gave me a hard time today... | 16:52 |
| *** arcean has quit IRC | 16:52 | |
| *** arcean_ has joined #maemo-ssu | 16:52 | |
| freemangordon | chem|st: np, I am calm, just keep it in mind I am not Estel ;) | 16:53 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: just stop barking about why things ended up being in cssu, they are there now, so it be | 16:53 |
| chem|st | I am pretty sure everything needed will get to cssu | 16:54 |
| MrPingu | chem|st: I believe it's more like: why are these CSSU why BB-p can't be? | 16:54 |
| chem|st | freedom of choice might be a pain in the ass in the ned | 16:54 |
| chem|st | end | 16:54 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: my point was regarding bb inclusion, I was trying to make an argument, that acording to the criteria applied to those packages, bb should be included too | 16:54 |
| freemangordon | I am the last one to ask for package to be removed from CSSU :) | 16:55 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: we talked that through now... bb will get upgraded and shipped with but bb-power will be optional iirc | 16:56 |
| kerio | i am the first! remove cbsms! | 16:56 |
| chem|st | kerio: that brought the whole story of cssu-extras to my attention | 16:56 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: bb will get upgraded to upstream and compiled with the same options as stock? I am absolutely ok if that is the case. | 16:57 |
| chem|st | so if there will be something rolling into cssu which needs bb-power it is there without hacky binery overwriting | 16:57 |
| iDont | chem|st, I actually missed the part that busybox will get upgraded and shipped | 16:57 |
| freemangordon | yep, me too :) | 16:58 |
| MrPingu | And this makes 3 | 16:58 |
| chem|st | ah ok no that was my idea behind it, strap out the power | 16:58 |
| freemangordon | I knew it is because of the -power thing :D | 16:58 |
| chem|st | upstream is ok if it is working fine but keep the bloat to a minimum | 16:58 |
| chem|st | it is not the name^^ | 16:59 |
| freemangordon | i know :) | 16:59 |
| chem|st | ;) | 16:59 |
| chem|st | but what is the difference between upstream and current? | 16:59 |
| chem|st | first of all, would it be smaller? | 17:00 |
| chem|st | faster? | 17:00 |
| freemangordon | current == stock? | 17:00 |
| chem|st | I love the "never change a running system" | 17:00 |
| MrPingu | http://www.busybox.net/ | 17:00 |
| MrPingu | scroll down till you see v1.10 :P | 17:01 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: don't know if you are aware, but libcurl in CSSU is around 280k bigger than stock | 17:01 |
| freemangordon | which about 100% increase | 17:01 |
| chem|st | I know | 17:03 |
| freemangordon | (iirc) | 17:03 |
| chem|st | ok some critical stuff I just see by scrolling the first 5 versions | 17:03 |
| chem|st | it is growing bigger | 17:04 |
| chem|st | iDont: would you mind to provide two versions? | 17:04 |
| freemangordon | iDont: I will check on the thread what are the additional modules included (i.e. -power stuff :) ) | 17:04 |
| MrPingu | chem|st: that list will become big :P | 17:05 |
| kerio | freemangordon: btw, the thumbified busybox-power is just 300k bigger than the stock arm busybox :D | 17:05 |
| chem|st | well np I guess it is the same source but different compiler flags + different version strings.. | 17:05 |
| iDont | chem|st, I don't mind, but is there any real interest in an updated BusyBox shell without power features? AFAIK most busybox-power users install busybox-power for its power features | 17:06 |
| chem|st | iDont: I am speaking of a cssu without power version | 17:07 |
| chem|st | nevermind | 17:07 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: well, if it does not bring harm, why not enable them? | 17:07 |
| MrPingu | freemangordon: you were faster | 17:07 |
| chem|st | space? | 17:08 |
| kerio | freemangordon: because mo money mo problems | 17:08 |
| chem|st | and less features means less bugs | 17:08 |
| iDont | There used to be two busybox-power versions: one with Nokia's config, and one with an enhanced config. The first was dropped because of a lack of interest. However, this was in mid-2011. | 17:08 |
| MrPingu | Some things like colored ls, is nice to have enabled in CSSU version too ver example | 17:08 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: yeah, I see the rationale, that is why I said i will check the additional modules | 17:09 |
| chem|st | +1 | 17:09 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: though 500k is not that much. | 17:10 |
| chem|st | the smaller the better, if we get some stuff rolling like "enhancements" people are used to but do not bloat it fine | 17:10 |
| merlin1991 | freemangordon: imo we should check what changes libcurl has | 17:10 |
| freemangordon | iDont: any chance to split it to /root /opt? or it is a single binary? | 17:10 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: take 10 programs that way and you have 5000k | 17:10 |
| merlin1991 | because as you said the size increase is huge | 17:10 |
| kerio | chem|st: so? 5mb is not a lot either :) | 17:11 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: I asked luf, and iirc he explained there are dependecnies | 17:11 |
| iDont | freemangordon, single binary at the moment | 17:11 |
| chem|st | kerio: on my 3TB / at home yes... | 17:11 |
| kerio | chem|st: i have like 40mb free on / | 17:11 |
| freemangordon | iDont: any chance to split it? | 17:11 |
| kerio | and that's a very strict estimate | 17:11 |
| iDont | freemangordon, that's most certainly possible | 17:11 |
| kerio | (ubifs expands as needed, i only have 228mb used or something) | 17:11 |
| MrPingu | I used to have 70mb free on / | 17:11 |
| chem|st | kerio: and you need how much to do an upgrade? | 17:12 |
| kerio | beats me | 17:12 |
| kerio | incremental upgrades? not much | 17:12 |
| kerio | :D | 17:12 |
| kerio | i mean, the only big thing that i installed on / is gcc+libc6-dev+dependencies | 17:12 |
| chem|st | so now you have 30MB left and we have a look at some other stuff not being /optificationable | 17:13 |
| freemangordon | iDont: I think if it is possible to split it in such a way, that in rootfs to be the only things really needed for boot and the rest to stay in /opt, that would make everyone happy | 17:13 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: agree? | 17:13 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: that will brake startup stuff | 17:13 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: read again :P | 17:13 |
| freemangordon | (and excuse my english) | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: busybox needs to stay in rootfs, needed during early boot. That's the main 8though not only) reason we don't want to make bb-p mandatory | 17:14 |
| chem|st | freemangordon: some waky people might like to do waky stuff while booting that it is -power! | 17:14 |
| iDont | freemangordon, yes, then we'll have to include two config files in the packaging and compile two separate binaries, I suppose | 17:14 |
| chem|st | we build it twice one is cssu (stock config) one is cssu-power | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: and whole point of busybox is it's a monolithic binary | 17:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: ++ | 17:15 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: yes, I know, I am trying to find a way to make everyone happy :) | 17:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we all do ;-D | 17:16 |
| chem|st | have a nice weekend! | 17:16 |
| freemangordon | chem|st: bb | 17:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, you too chem|st | 17:16 |
| * chem|st hits the road | 17:16 | |
| *** ivgalvez has joined #maemo-ssu | 17:16 | |
| * DocScrutinizer05 celebrates vacancy | 17:16 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | duck and cover, now I got 24/7 time for maemo ;-P | 17:17 |
| kerio | well, the whole point of busybox is also not to execute a bunch of processes in shell scripts | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: that's secondary at best | 17:17 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: the point was - we could have only one package, which includes two binaries, one of them stays in rootfs (with the essentials needed for boot), the second lives in /opt | 17:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the obvious main rationale for busybox been that Nokia tried to conserve as much space in rootfs as possible | 17:18 |
| kerio | and we should try to honour that! | 17:18 |
| kerio | by enabling thumb binaries! | 17:18 |
| * kerio flees | 17:18 | |
| freemangordon | hehe | 17:18 |
| ivgalvez | juas | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: you (maintainer of bb) could turn it into anything renamed from original busybox name, and keep it in /opt like any other *suer* shell | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *user* | 17:19 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: i thought the rationale for busybox was that it was used in diablo and then hysterical raisins and then why bother changing | 17:19 |
| kerio | diablo and before, i mean | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe that too :-P | 17:20 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 loves hysterical raisins | 17:20 | |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: there was a link with changes between stock version and upstream, see chem|st's comment on it: | 17:21 |
| freemangordon | 17:02 <chem|st> ok some critical stuff I just see by scrolling the first 5 versions | 17:21 |
| freemangordon | <chem|st> it is growing bigger | 17:21 |
| kerio | oh lol | 17:21 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: so lets end that, ok? :) | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: I'd not deny benefit of getting bugfixes to busybox, esp if they are system critical. But I question sane rationale behind including power extensions | 17:22 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: chem|st proposed 2 packages, I am trying to reduce that to 1 | 17:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good | 17:23 |
| freemangordon | without using precious rootfs space | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the less the better, it needs very close review since busybox is mission critical | 17:23 |
| freemangordon | but of course | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | isn't it strange how even freemangordon and me could agree on something easily, as long as estel isn't bitching on stuff he doesn't completely understand | 17:24 |
| kerio | iDont: did you *disable* something from the upstream busybox? | 17:25 |
| freemangordon | iDont: so, I think if you manage to strip -power part in /opt, we can have only 1 package | 17:25 |
| iDont | kerio: only if it conflicted with Nokia's configuration | 17:25 |
| kerio | k | 17:25 |
| iDont | freemangordon, I could give that a shot, I see no reason why that wouldn't work | 17:26 |
| kerio | freemangordon: hm, so you have a stock-ish /bin/busybox with the usual commands there, and then /opt/busybox-power/busybox-power that's symlinked from all the other commands? | 17:26 |
| freemangordon | though chem|st has his point for those who may want to use some of the -power functionality in early boot | 17:26 |
| kerio | freemangordon: well, how early? | 17:26 |
| freemangordon | kerio: ask chem|st, not me :D | 17:27 |
| kerio | swapon priority would have to be compiled in /bin/busybox, for instance | 17:27 |
| iDont | freemangordon, yes, for example Mentalist Tracuer's recovery console relies on some of busybox-power's power features | 17:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please keep in mind this whole annoying issue with initscripts depending on this very particular version of busybox cmd syntax *and* output, and semantic | 17:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the stuff that estel misquoted as "3rd party scripts" all the time | 17:28 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: we've got more than a year of testing with busybox-power, though | 17:28 |
| iDont | freemangordon, however, there are also a lot of applets that most certainly won't be used at boot (e.g. httpd) | 17:28 |
| kerio | non-rigorous testing, but still | 17:28 |
| freemangordon | iDont: you can include know stuff in /rootfs bb, I think there would be no onjections for 100-150k size increase | 17:29 |
| freemangordon | s/know/known/ | 17:29 |
| infobot | freemangordon meant: iDont: you can include known stuff in /rootfs bb, I think there would be no onjections for 100-150k size increase | 17:29 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: agree? | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: this is very core mission critical stuff, you better have rigorous testing for every single possible case/branch | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 100k maybe on the tolerable side still, for the benefit to finally close this ticket | 17:30 |
| freemangordon | yeah | 17:30 |
| kerio | hahaha | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but no way to shorcut proper tests and review for any changes in cmd syntax, semantic, output | 17:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of any of the already existing cmds | 17:31 |
| kerio | but... | 17:31 |
| kerio | stuff still works! :c | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | orly? you tested with unformatted uSD? with 911 calls? with devicelock entere3d 3 times in sequence wrong? etc pp? | 17:31 |
| freemangordon | iDont: ok, now we only need merlin1991 to confirm he is ok (though I think he will be) | 17:32 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: come on man, that is why testing is | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: "WFM" never is any near a proper test/review | 17:32 |
| kerio | hm, would locking the device require nokia care? | 17:32 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 I seriously doubt Nokia did such tests to N900 | 17:33 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: WFM is too mainstream | 17:33 |
| kerio | http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/03/the-works-on-my-machine-certification-program.html | 17:33 |
| ivgalvez | considering the quality of PR1.0 | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: you're free to doubt that | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I know other companies do | 17:33 |
| ivgalvez | for sure... Nasa | 17:33 |
| kerio | other companies doubt that nokia did those tests? :o | 17:33 |
| ivgalvez | hehe | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so *I* doubt Nokia was the only company NOT doing such tests | 17:33 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: Nokia n900 testing was exactly what we do in CSSU-testing AFAIK | 17:34 |
| ivgalvez | CSSU's is better as it's done in the open | 17:34 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, what about WFM's from a supposedly large user base? The download count (not [unique] install count) of busybox-power is 265897 according to http://maemo.dadablog.net/AppStats.php?package=busybox-power&os=fremantle | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically yes, but prior to giving some pkg to cssu-t we like devels to evaluate and rule out any obvious path for problems | 17:34 |
| freemangordon | but anyway, that is irrelevant, we don't have the resources Nokia had, so have to use whatever we have | 17:35 |
| merlin1991 | how do you plan todo the rootfs/opt thingy actually? | 17:35 |
| kerio | holy shit, 265k is a lot | 17:35 |
| merlin1991 | is it meant to be 2 times busybox one stripped and one full? | 17:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, and our resources are pretty sufficient to review patches and find out if they change syntax, semantic, or output of a command in busybox. If they do, check if the command is used in initscripts | 17:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pretty simple straightforward task, basic sanity checks | 17:36 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: that's inefficient | 17:36 |
| iDont | merlin1991: two separate config files, tweak debian/rules to spit out two binaries. Only the symlinking has to be figured out AFAICS | 17:36 |
| kerio | check if the command is used in initscripts *and then* check if the behaviour changes | 17:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: no, that's the *only* efficient way | 17:36 |
| iDont | I got to go now, back in about half an hour. I'll stay connected to IRC | 17:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, that way as well can get done | 17:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: I don't care what we do first | 17:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I thought for a small patchset it would be better to check only the patches if they change syntax etc of command. If you prefer to check for each command used in initscripts if there's a patch for it, you're welcome | 17:38 |
| freemangordon | iDont: i have NFC how is the simlinking done, but I suspect it has some relation to the install directory, so I hope there is no "symlining" problem | 17:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all I'd hope no syntax, semantic, or output changes got introduced by any of the patches we include | 17:40 |
| freemangordon | the fuck, men, it is symlinking :D | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all busybox *claims* to be bourne shell compatible, so not much room for such changes after all | 17:41 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: afaik there are lots of bb-p users, if there was some problem, it'd be found by now. I know, I know, WFM :) | 17:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm mostly concerned about the fact it (has been) *not* completely bourneshell compatible, and that initscripts still rely on that, so if we'd fix any of that, we'd see massive problems eventually | 17:42 |
| ivgalvez | But are you referring to actual init scripts existing in PR1.3? | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: aiui we're preparing even a new version now | 17:43 |
| ivgalvez | or personal ones? | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that hasn't seen *any* tests so far | 17:43 |
| *** MrPingu has quit IRC | 17:43 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: referring to probably pre-1.2 official initscripts | 17:44 |
| freemangordon | yeah | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though nobody did proper investigations on that lately afaik | 17:44 |
| ivgalvez | how could one be running such ancient scripts and CSSU at the same time? | 17:44 |
| freemangordon | but it will go through -devel and -thumb, so it will see some testing before entering CSSU-T | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a known problem of pre-PR1.2 anyway. Since then changing init shell been so publicly deprecated we seen no recent tests on it | 17:45 |
| * freemangordon has to go, bbl | 17:46 | |
| * kerio changed login shells for both user and root | 17:46 | |
| kerio | no side effects so far | 17:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just saying we need to investigate if that problem just vanished without any of us noticing Nokia fixing it, or we simply didn't see it recently because of any other reason, for example nobody dared to mess with that stuff in the way we're going to do when fixing "bugs" in busybox | 17:46 |
| kerio | you know how could we test it? | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | messing around with init shell isn't something you can do sloppy | 17:48 |
| kerio | by putting it in a repository dedicated to testing | 17:48 |
| kerio | we could call it "testing" | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: stop trolling please | 17:48 |
| kerio | or maybe "devel" | 17:48 |
| kerio | k :c | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all it's basically init scripts that get tailored to fit the existing init shell | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not other way round | 17:50 |
| kerio | the init shell is /bin/sh | 17:51 |
| kerio | well, the preinit | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so whatever change in init shell needs to get checked against *all* inti scripts for possible impact | 17:51 |
| kerio | #!/bin/sh | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you don't do such checks on a "WFM" basis, you need code-coverage-analysis basically, to make sure every single line of "code" in your scripts got run on the new shell and worked as expected | 17:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or you do the already semi-sloppy way to just grep in init scripts for the suspicious commands | 17:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "WFM" just ensures there's *ONE* working path, by no means it secures *all* possible pathes | 17:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and "we don't have the manpower for that" is no valid excuse. IF we wouldn't have enough manpower for that, we mustn't touch the thing at all | 17:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all I still fail to see the really existing and occuring bug all this will fix | 17:56 |
| ivgalvez | you are assuming that Maemo should receive code coverage from CSSU | 17:56 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: http://busybox.net/ <- check the changelog | 17:56 |
| kerio | from 1.10 to 1.20 | 17:56 |
| ivgalvez | when you don't even know if it was done in its development at Nokia | 17:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so any risk on one side of scale is outweighed by exactly 0 benefit for system on the other | 17:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: thanks a lot man, actually a *useful* contribution | 17:57 |
| ivgalvez | code coverage outside the Aeronautical world? | 17:57 |
| ivgalvez | haven't seen that in my life | 17:57 |
| kerio | someone posted it earlier, actually | 17:57 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: is "space" in aeronautical? | 17:57 |
| ivgalvez | well yes, more or less the same ;) | 17:58 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: hm, maybe the military? | 17:58 |
| ivgalvez | I've worked for the military industry | 17:58 |
| ivgalvez | you don't want to know what kind of tests they do | 17:59 |
| ivgalvez | embarrasing | 17:59 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: unsurprisingly, there's a ton of bugfixes since the stock busybox we have | 17:59 |
| kerio | there's also a ton of improvements | 17:59 |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has quit IRC | 17:59 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has joined #maemo-ssu | 17:59 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, reconnect | 17:59 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: unsurprisingly, there's a ton of bugfixes since the stock busybox we have | 17:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: code coverage is done on every semi-commercial product. N900 is a 100% commercial product, and CSSU is designed to prolongue its life | 17:59 |
| kerio | there's also a ton of improvements | 17:59 |
| kerio | which is exactly the kind of stuff that you say we should triplecheck | 17:59 |
| ivgalvez | I work on commercial products | 17:59 |
| ivgalvez | I know people working on commercial products | 17:59 |
| ivgalvez | I don't know anyone making code coverage outside the DO178-C | 18:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: same here (if you're willing to consider ST-Ericsson modem used in Samsung phones as a commercial product) | 18:01 |
| merlin1991 | do178-c? | 18:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and they *do* code coverage | 18:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in integration | 18:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though it should be done by devels actually | 18:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we also use test units | 18:02 |
| ivgalvez | merlin1991: DO178-C is for certification of software on airbone environments and other critical systems | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for each module | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which actually are written by devels, since those are supposed to know what to test in their sub-system | 18:03 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 a modem is a piece of hardware with very low level software to be integrated in end user products | 18:03 |
| ivgalvez | it's not the same kind of product | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "very low level software"?? bwahahaha | 18:04 |
| ivgalvez | I mean closer to the hardware | 18:04 |
| ivgalvez | maybe not well expressed | 18:04 |
| ivgalvez | sorry now on meeting | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 18:05 |
| iDont | back | 18:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: alas this 'changelog' on http://busybox.net/ isn't telling me which patches to review, since I dunno which of them get included to cssu. For sure we don't want to include them all, since then we again hit that "eats MB of rootfs space, and impossible to review all so introduces risk" issue | 18:08 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: well, we'd need to grab all the ones that aren't configured away | 18:09 |
| kerio | so at the very least anything related to commands that are included with the stock BB | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I think as long as it's freemangordon to review patches and decide which one or 2 packages we actually want to include to fix anticipated problems in busybox-vanilla, I'll just wait for his analysis if those patches change anything on syntax, semantics, or output of any command | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | once he delivers that list, I'm more than willing to check the changes against current initscripts and give my verdict if I think they are safe or not | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (btw something estel happily rejected/ignored to do, when I suggested it to him as a true valuable contribution to cssu+bb topic) | 18:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: all on your page regarding what we need to include | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what we need to *consider* for inclusion | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and it's exactly those patches to commands already included in busybox that need triple check | 18:14 |
| kerio | http://i.qkme.me/3qpmrd.jpg | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since one or two *additional* commands wouldn't probably have much impact/risk regarding maemo init, since... well they're not used for obvious reasons | 18:15 |
| kerio | hehe | 18:15 |
| kerio | i just realized that the patches that shouldn't be included carelessly are the ones that are actually needed the most | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so, to pick a proper example, if we get an augmented swapon command, we need to review all invocations of swapon in initscripts and related core system stuff, to secure the old syntax is compatible with the new command | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: indeed | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if however you (hypothetically) would introduce a *new* command "change-swap-prio" then we probably could get away with rationale like >oh well, nobody ever used change-swap-prio so far, so it's probably low risk for init process to enable that command< | 18:19 |
| ivgalvez | iDont ping | 18:19 |
| ivgalvez | speaking of issues | 18:19 |
| iDont | ivgalvez: pong | 18:19 |
| ivgalvez | again rebooting the device with bb-p open messed up my history :( | 18:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: I guess that's because of busybox, for a number of sound reasons, handles history differently to standard shell? | 18:21 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, yes, upstream busybox has proper history saving on shell exit implemented. Maemo's version just overwrites the history file with the current shells' history on exit (e.g. multiple shells open will result in lost commands) | 18:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: aiui busybox differs massively from any other standard shell, regarding spawning of new instances for execution of scripts etc, so obviously history semantics are entangled to that | 18:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: (losing commands when closing multiple instances) a behaviour pretty much expected for any standard shell | 18:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: aiui on busybox you might find yourself actually *not* running multople instances even while you think you do | 18:26 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: well, I think I have enough stuff in the queue to put bb there as well, I think we can find someone else to do it. Remember, I have to do the same assesmment to do for KP patches ;) | 18:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 18:26 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05: bash does save history from all (parallel) shell instances | 18:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm all aware of your workload | 18:26 |
| *** mase_76 has joined #maemo-ssu | 18:27 | |
| *** mase_76 has quit IRC | 18:27 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: oh, it doesnow? not when I checked last time | 18:27 |
| iDont | I'm speaking of interactive shells of course | 18:27 |
| iDont | it does on my laptop: open two terminal emulators, write some commands in both, close them both, check history | 18:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, exactly. each interactive shell overwriting history file of last closing instance with its own one | 18:28 |
| iDont | that shouldn't be done, as you'll lose history that way. Bash does not lose history, and so does upstream BusyBox | 18:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or you do append to file, probably by handling that in your exit rc files | 18:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or you define a prompt commad to write out each single commadline to history file the very moment you fire it up | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | command* ffs | 18:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's however no IPC between distinct bash instances, regarding history file writing | 18:31 |
| iDont | And neither is there any IPC in BusyBox' ash shell. BusyBox' ash appends its history to ~/.ash_history | 18:32 |
| iDont | but it can also be configured to write out history after each command (as you stated) | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | last time I checked I got the impression bash just writes out the internal history buffer to ~/.bash-history on exit | 18:33 |
| iDont | ivgalvez, I could configure BusyBox to append each command to the history file, that would solve all history-related issues. That will put some extra strain on the eMMC though | 18:34 |
| iDont | although I'm not sure how much (considering it's only a line of text, but it does add up I guess) | 18:34 |
| iDont | anyone has some insight on that? | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I'd guess that's a question of configuration, done either by shell envs (set --foobar on) or simply via user's ~/.bash-startup | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and ~/.bash-exit | 18:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: strain to eMMC is last concern here. There are way more rogue things in that respect - after all we got IO buffering as well | 18:36 |
| kerio | can't it be configured, anyway? | 18:36 |
| kerio | and besides | 18:36 |
| kerio | who the fuck actually uses busybox as a login shell? | 18:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but, as mentioned, that's just a question of *user* config, since w mustn't change this behaviour for init shell which doesn't have any history for obvious reasons | 18:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: trolling again? | 18:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | who would use anything other than busybox for login shell? | 18:38 |
| kerio | me, for instance! | 18:38 |
| kerio | i use bash | 18:38 |
| ivgalvez | now my history ended up with some random C++ code, I wonder where did it came from | 18:39 |
| ivgalvez | iDont maybe that should be configurable then | 18:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds like a busybox bug | 18:40 |
| ivgalvez | kerio: most embedded systems use bb | 18:40 |
| ivgalvez | I use it in STB for example | 18:40 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: i am aware of that :) | 18:40 |
| iDont | ivgalvez, at the moment it's only configurable at compile time | 18:40 |
| ivgalvez | :( | 18:41 |
| kerio | ivgalvez: the n900 is quite the powerful embedded system though :) | 18:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pretty bad | 18:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: so could we get rid of any history handling in bb binary, and just handle that in the appropriate scripts? | 18:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: FSCK yeah! it's more powerfull than the laptop I used when I bought my first N900 | 18:43 |
| iDont | busybox disables history handling completely when the shell is not interactive. History handling (and all its related compile-time configuration) should therefore be irrelevant to scripts | 18:43 |
| iDont | unless those scripts start with #!/bin/sh -i, which I highly doubt | 18:43 |
| kerio | any script writer relying on shell history should be shot | 18:43 |
| *** NIN101 has joined #maemo-ssu | 18:44 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: well, that's a pretty normal basic shell function. However if we can't configure history behaviour in a "convenient" way at runtime, we might want to move *all* history handling to some config scripts like .bashrc .bash-startup whatever the name | 18:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all it's one simple command in startup and one in exit script | 18:46 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about | 18:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, I'll try to elaborate | 18:47 |
| iDont | thanks :) | 18:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | history: history [-c] [-d Offset] [n] oder history -anrw [Dateiname] oder history -ps Argument [Argument...] | 18:49 |
| iDont | BusyBox doesn't supply `history` at all | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WUT? | 18:51 |
| iDont | check it ;-) | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed, so how the fuck we should handle history at all then? | 18:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this is so incredibly stupid | 18:52 |
| iDont | As user, you only can only manipulate the standard envorinment variables ($HISTFILE et al) | 18:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pfff | 18:53 |
| iDont | hehe, I didn't say ash is better than bash ;-) | 18:53 |
| iDont | it just happens to be the default shell in Maemo | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~messybox | 18:54 |
| infobot | messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su, passwd) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils | 18:54 |
| freemangordon | hehe | 18:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tr5ying to teach the dog to fly | 18:55 |
| iDont | yep. I mainly use busybox-power for its tools. It's really convenient to have a lot of tools always available. If can always install proper tools if BusyBox is lacking. However, that hasn't occured too much for me yet (with busybox-power) | 18:55 |
| iDont | s/if/I/ | 18:55 |
| infobot | iDont meant: yep. I mainly use busybox-power for its tools. It's really convenient to have a lot of tools always available. If can always install proper tools I BusyBox is lacking. However, that hasn't occured too much for me yet (with busybox-power) | 18:55 |
| iDont | woops | 18:56 |
| iDont | we'll, you get what I mean | 18:56 |
| iDont | well* | 18:56 |
| iDont | damn | 18:56 |
| *** BCMM has quit IRC | 18:56 | |
| iDont | not my best day | 18:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I don't really care what you do to messybox history handling, unless it changes behaviour for non-interactive | 18:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | users loving busybox for all the missing stuff may find a way to deal with whatever history handling you come up with. don't expect that to go into cssu fixed busybox-vanilla though | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | asince I hardly can see any reason to review that patch | 18:59 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, I don't think we're on the same page. I'm not planning to change any history related code | 18:59 |
| iDont | I suggested changing a compile-time option. | 19:00 |
| iDont | And history handling is _always_ turned off for non-interactive shells (unless your script starts with #!/bin/sh -i, which it really shouldn't), so you don't have to worry about the subject at all | 19:00 |
| iDont | sorry if a misunderstanding has come from my side | 19:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we're worrying about *any* patches going into cssu busybox vanilla | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since any patch comes with risk, and usually with added payload for rootfs | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your "portrait" patch was pretty minimalistc, so no probelm to review it, and no impact to size | 19:02 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, the portain patch was from Pali, not me ;-) | 19:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (though I have to admit I don't get what it actually does) | 19:03 |
| freemangordon | hmm, do I get it right, upstream bb handles history differently from stock? | 19:04 |
| freemangordon | *stock maemo | 19:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems so | 19:04 |
| freemangordon | in what way? | 19:04 |
| iDont | Nokia patched in an own method to save history, but it was broken. Upstream BusyBox provides two different ways of saving shell history, configurable via a compile-time option | 19:05 |
| freemangordon | aah,ok. DocScrutinizer05: what is the problem with that? | 19:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no problem, just asking why we need that in busybox vanilla | 19:06 |
| iDont | Well, you don't want to patch in Nokia's broken method in upstream, do you? | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and also asking if that assumtion it's been buggy Nokia implementation is any quotable, e.g ticker on bugtracker where Nokia admits there's a bug and not a feature we didn't understand | 19:07 |
| freemangordon | hehe | 19:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/ticker/ticket/ | 19:08 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: and also asking if that assumtion it's been buggy Nokia implementation is any quotable, e.g ticket on bugtracker where Nokia admits there's a bug and not a feature we didn't understand | 19:08 |
| freemangordon | iDont: what is broken? history being overwritten by the last interactive shell? | 19:08 |
| freemangordon | iDont: sorry if you already answered | 19:09 |
| iDont | one sec | 19:09 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 afk now, finally getting my end-of-day / /end-of-week / end-of-contract / end-of-work drink | 19:09 | |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: aren't you on a new contract like tomorrowß | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ping me if there's a proper cssu meeting later (it's Friday after all) | 19:10 |
| merlin1991 | s/ß/?/ | 19:10 |
| infobot | merlin1991 meant: DocScrutinizer05: aren't you on a new contract like tomorrow? | 19:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope | 19:10 |
| freemangordon | well, chem|st is missing, merlin1991 is away and with bad inet, I don't think there will be a meeting today ;) | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good :-D | 19:11 |
| freemangordon | merlin1991: may I ask you to do me a favor? | 19:12 |
| merlin1991 | depends on the favour ;) | 19:12 |
| freemangordon | there was a conversation regarding licensing of VKB RE stuff and I promised to change the license | 19:12 |
| merlin1991 | and I gotta do what? | 19:13 |
| merlin1991 | rm -rf / on my server? :D | 19:13 |
| freemangordon | for the life of mine I cannot think of what that "(C) Nokia" license should contain | 19:13 |
| freemangordon | no, invent some license and replace LGPL wherever applicable | 19:14 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, I can point out the flaw in Nokia's shell-hist.patch | 19:14 |
| ivgalvez | freemangordon hi | 19:14 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: hi | 19:14 |
| ivgalvez | what's the original license or eula file in Nokia's package | 19:14 |
| ivgalvez | ? | 19:14 |
| *** MrPingu has joined #maemo-ssu | 19:15 | |
| freemangordon | there is no ;) | 19:15 |
| ivgalvez | you just need to keep that file | 19:15 |
| ivgalvez | doh! | 19:15 |
| ivgalvez | OK, then use this: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/eula/index.php | 19:15 |
| ivgalvez | and add a notice file | 19:15 |
| iDont | freemangordon, back to you. Were you talking about Maemo's busybox, upstream BusyBox, or busybox-power :-P? | 19:15 |
| iDont | in your question | 19:15 |
| ivgalvez | saying what we already tlked last day | 19:16 |
| freemangordon | ivgalvez: not applicable, I used binaries from SB :P | 19:16 |
| freemangordon | iDont: just a minute, I want to finish with that license once and for all :) | 19:17 |
| iDont | k | 19:17 |
| ivgalvez | Actually, qgil commented yesterday by email that Nokia EULA and already exiisting declarations on TMO are covering fair use | 19:17 |
| ivgalvez | for Nokia devices | 19:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: ++ and thanks! | 19:17 |
| ivgalvez | I have insisted about it and he answered that it's absolutely clear that we can use Nokia copyright for Open Source projects on Nokia devices | 19:18 |
| ivgalvez | qgil: "There won't be anything more official than what has been written and | 19:19 |
| ivgalvez | explained in the forum. The Nokia EULA is official and it doesn't make | 19:19 |
| ivgalvez | any sense to have an official message contradicting the EULA. Please | 19:19 |
| ivgalvez | keep playing nice and there won't be any problem." | 19:19 |
| ivgalvez | so don't try to install Maemo in $DEVICE | 19:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "this file may contain parts derived from disassembly of binaries unde Nokia's copyright (see http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/eula/index.php). The original licencing conditions apply to to all those derived parts as well and you accept those by using this file" | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sth like that will do | 19:20 |
| ivgalvez | perfect | 19:20 |
| ivgalvez | so now we need to contact Adobe ;) | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SSSHHH! | 19:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) | 19:21 |
| freemangordon | hmm, I like that, thanks, going to update the sources | 19:22 |
| ivgalvez | no probs | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please fix my spelling ;-) | 19:23 |
| kerio | "hey adobe, we're gonna ship your latest flash player on maemo kthxbye" | 19:23 |
| freemangordon | hehe | 19:23 |
| merlin1991 | kerio: the important part is the kthxbye :D | 19:23 |
| ivgalvez | merlin1991 I hope somehow you will be able to actually administrate the repos during next week | 19:26 |
| ivgalvez | I have a big list of applications to promote form Testing-Squad list ;) | 19:26 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 sips on his nice cold drink | 19:26 | |
| merlin1991 | ivgalvez: as soon as I can actually do stuff I'll be happy todo so :) | 19:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: (latest flash player) do we actually *want* to do that? would we even be able to find something worth it? | 19:28 |
| kerio | eeh, you're probably right | 19:28 |
| kerio | most porn sites work fine with flash 9 | 19:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: how's your vacations? | 19:28 |
| freemangordon | /** | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | @file hildon-im-vkbrenderer3.c | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | This file is part of libhildon-im-vkbrenderer3. | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | Тhis file may contain parts derived from disassembly of binaries under Nokia's copyright, | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | see http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php. | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | The original licencing conditions apply to all those derived parts as well | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | and you accept those by using this file. | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | */ | 19:29 |
| kerio | *licensing | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | ok? | 19:29 |
| freemangordon | thanks | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OK | 19:29 |
| kerio | also, maybe "the disassembly"? | 19:29 |
| merlin1991 | DocScrutinizer05: perfect, only tomorrow is the last day :/ | 19:29 |
| ivgalvez | great | 19:29 |
| * kerio is not a native english speaker | 19:29 | |
| * freemangordon too | 19:30 | |
| ivgalvez | merlin1991 did you actually do anything apart from going to the beach? | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | derived by disassembling... | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | -of | 19:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: so enjoy it to the last minute | 19:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo madness waiting for you, you know ;-) | 19:31 |
| merlin1991 | ivgalvez: been to ronda and gibraltar | 19:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 19:32 |
| ivgalvez | nice | 19:32 |
| merlin1991 | and then ofc lots of beach and booze :) | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | both nice places I've been as well | 19:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: don't miss to visit cabo trafalgar / los canos de mecca | 19:32 |
| ivgalvez | Caños de Meca | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | some 50(?) km from Gibraltar up the atlantic coast | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: indeed | 19:33 |
| freemangordon | I suppose I can have different licensing for .c/.h, as I want headers LGPL licensed | 19:33 |
| freemangordon | ? | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | probably, yes | 19:33 |
| freemangordon | what about package (C)? | 19:34 |
| ivgalvez | perfectly possible, just add the license notice in each header file | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as long as the .h don't include stuff too obviously basing on disassembly | 19:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | package (C) always the most restrictive option of all available | 19:34 |
| freemangordon | well, function names, but nothing like v21 | 19:34 |
| ivgalvez | the package contains Nokia stuff so it has to keep Nokia copyright | 19:35 |
| freemangordon | ok | 19:35 |
| ivgalvez | and is not redistributable out of Nokia devices | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: function names are free ;-) | 19:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | var names as well | 19:35 |
| *** ivgalvez has quit IRC | 19:36 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, beefeater kicks ass | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 19:36 |
| merlin1991 | how does that fit? :D | 19:36 |
| merlin1991 | half a day spent on irc in spain, time to get out again xD | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not at all, to the topic. Pretty good, to my mood | 19:37 |
| merlin1991 | hehe | 19:37 |
| merlin1991 | though tbh beefeater is not that good gin | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good enough for longdrinks | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (they had no Gordon's @ Karstadt :-o ) | 19:38 |
| merlin1991 | anyway I'll go and find me some longdrink, probably back on sunday | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cya, enjoy yourself! | 19:38 |
| iDont | have a good one, merlin1991! | 19:39 |
| freemangordon | http://pastebin.com/XkyaJBh2 | 19:44 |
| freemangordon | ok? | 19:44 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05 ^^^ | 19:45 |
| *** MrPingu has quit IRC | 19:54 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: seems ok | 19:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somebody will rise concerns that there are two conflicting licences, but I'm not one of them, since I think it's clear that the second more restrictive one overrides the GPL where applicable | 19:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (sorry for delay) | 19:57 |
| freemangordon | yep, fixed it | 20:01 |
| freemangordon | https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/hildon-im-vkbrenderer3/blobs/63e2f77d158f74d809264187e93c4d8b54d59545/debian/copyright | 20:01 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: ^^^ | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: perfect | 20:02 |
| freemangordon | will change the other package too, but tomorrow :) | 20:05 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 swallows some bitter comment about este^H^H and prepares another drink | 20:05 | |
| freemangordon | iDont: I was asking what is broken in stock bb | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yumyumyum http://www.cocktailscout.de/cocktail_Gr__ne_Wiese_rezept_149.html | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually baeh! | 20:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | missing the proper huge dash of gin | 20:11 |
| iDont | freemangordon: if you have multiple instances of ash open, only the command history of the last closed shell will be saved. All commands typed in other instances will be lost | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | haha http://www.cocktaildatenbank.de/cocktail-rezepte/801-gruene-wiese | 20:13 |
| freemangordon | iDont: ok | 20:14 |
| freemangordon | and what is upstream doing? | 20:14 |
| freemangordon | iDont: TBH there is lots of stuff that can be stripped from bb-p, rpm and rpm2cpio for example :) | 20:16 |
| iDont | By default, it appends each command to the history file. All instances of ash does this, so you'll get interleaving commands from different ash instances | 20:16 |
| freemangordon | ok | 20:16 |
| freemangordon | sounds ggod | 20:16 |
| freemangordon | good even | 20:16 |
| iDont | if you set ENABLE_FEATURE_EDITING_SAVE_ON_EXIT at compile time, it will append its history to the histfile on shell closure | 20:16 |
| freemangordon | which is close to stock behaviour, ain't? | 20:17 |
| freemangordon | iDont: what httpd in busybox do? | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah sonds pretty convenient | 20:17 |
| iDont | Yes, and that's what we have turned on in busybox-power (to save wear on the eMMC). However, if ash is closed unnicely (for the lack of a better term), the history file can get garbled | 20:18 |
| iDont | that's still a bug that puzzles me | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: don't worry about eMMc wear! | 20:18 |
| kerio | freemangordon: make an educated guess | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ...since your EE colleagues already did ;-) | 20:19 |
| freemangordon | yeah, that won't get flushed until needed | 20:19 |
| iDont | :-D great! | 20:19 |
| iDont | then there is no issue wrt history handling at all anymore | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you get buffering on any (laso eMMC) writes to storage anyway | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so "don't worry, be happy!" | 20:20 |
| kerio | is there a way to enable something similar to TRIM for the eMMC? | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *burp* | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sync:sync | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ; | 20:21 |
| kerio | ...no | 20:21 |
| iDont | freemangordon, httpd is a complete webserver implementation in busybox ;-) | 20:21 |
| kerio | that's nt TRIM | 20:21 |
| freemangordon | iDont: I think you should be able to move httpd, rpm stuff, sendmail, etc to /opt and get rid of acpid and such | 20:21 |
| iDont | freemangordon, although a tiny one | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's no TRIM on mmc | 20:21 |
| kerio | shame | 20:21 |
| iDont | freemangordon, yes, and probably more as well | 20:21 |
| freemangordon | yep | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | TRIM is pretty lowlevel | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | eMMC controller doesn't have API for that | 20:22 |
| freemangordon | and you will fit in those 100-150 k limit, witout risk to break someone's early boot script | 20:22 |
| iDont | everyone's happy :-) | 20:22 |
| freemangordon | yep :) | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | without risk to break somebody's heart ;-D | 20:23 |
| freemangordon | mission accomplished | 20:23 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 wonders if it's his nature to play the bastard, or it's just some users who don't get the whole picture make him feel like that | 20:24 | |
| iDont | I'm very glad we finally got something productive going regarding busybox and CSSU. Last week hasn't been really fun for anyone I guess | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | actually I'm also striving for the best of maemo | 20:24 |
| iDont | DocScrutinizer05, I think nobody would deny that | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but I get mad on somebody forecefeeding anything to somebody else | 20:25 |
| freemangordon | iDont: well, it is up to you then. Though my proposal is to clone bb as it is now(on gitorious), forward the source to upstream, make the needed changes and request a merge | 20:25 |
| freemangordon | that way we can make a review of what are the actual changes in the source code | 20:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: I concur with last (2) week(s) nobody felt happy (except maybe estel for his successful trolling) | 20:26 |
| freemangordon | iDont: is that sound sane? | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nah, that's been mean | 20:27 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: why? | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think even estel wants the best for maemo | 20:27 |
| freemangordon | aah, ok | 20:27 |
| freemangordon | you are still on estel :P | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he just has poor diplomatical skills | 20:27 |
| iDont | freemangordon, yes, sounds good. However, there are a _lot_ of commits between BusyBox 1.10 and 1.20 | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: yeah, that tears me down more than you might expect | 20:28 |
| freemangordon | iDont: btw by saying "upstream" do you mean "debian" or some git repo? | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just don't get it how he's such a douchebag and always bitching at me | 20:29 |
| iDont | I mean the latest stable tagged busybox release by upstream | 20:29 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: what do you mean you don't get it? | 20:29 |
| kerio | it's easy | 20:29 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: it's your fault the freerunner sucked! | 20:29 |
| kerio | see? | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all he seems the only one thinking I got time to spare just to annoy him | 20:30 |
| freemangordon | guys, lets finish with bb, please | 20:30 |
| kerio | and let's move to cbsms | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: indeed, I should've jumped in more early, with much more verve, to save the project | 20:30 |
| kerio | wait, really? | 20:30 |
| kerio | so it *was* your fault! :O | 20:31 |
| iDont | @freemangordon <iDont> I mean the latest stable tagged busybox release by upstream | 20:31 |
| freemangordon | kerio: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/operator-name-cbs-widget/commit/5d30fedb5ebea226d9ccfe9ac8453bfe9acb02c4/diffs/9c19e807f04312b1e5d71d4283f4aa55bd152f0f | 20:31 |
| freemangordon | now, lets go back to bb | 20:31 |
| kerio | wtf is that | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: lol for cbsms | 20:32 |
| freemangordon | iDont: well, then you should be able to simply rebase (after removing nokia patches) | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good topic change | 20:32 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: don't lol, that's your fault too! | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes!!!! | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I take all the blame for it | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I however won't accept it as an excuse to continue like that | 20:33 |
| iDont | freemangordon, yes, that's what I'll do. I had a little misunderstanding ;-) | 20:33 |
| kerio | i don't want to use it as an excuse to continue like that, i want it out of my cssu :C | 20:33 |
| kerio | or fixed | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all, if we don't learn from our mistakes, we're real fools | 20:34 |
| kerio | by the way, the dpkg divert it uses is a massive kludge | 20:34 |
| freemangordon | kerio: hmm, where is your CSSU, I want to try it. | 20:34 |
| kerio | and whoever thought of that should be shot in the back | 20:34 |
| kerio | or maybe lightly mocked | 20:34 |
| kerio | one of those two | 20:35 |
| freemangordon | kerio: wasn't trolling so far enough? | 20:35 |
| kerio | if you want to do a proper one of those, do the same as the future busybox-power - provide and conflict with connui-home-cellular | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: (out of cssu or ficed) I'm all with you regarding that | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: and I promise it won't make it to cssu-s in this condition it's now | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: THAT is what cssu-t is all about. Get packages you *think* are already withput problems, then learn if they actually are | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it's no excuse to act sloppy on prior evaluation of possible problems to anticipate | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I failed on anticipating the problems we see with cbsms | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I take the blame for that | 20:38 |
| kerio | besides... | 20:39 |
| kerio | can't it be enabled on-demand? | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I however *won't* take any accusations for trying to avoid same mistake in the future | 20:39 |
| kerio | it's ok, i still love you <3 | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I probably hire ninjas if some estel comes again stating I don't contribute so his valuable experience is way more relevant than anything I say | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all for *what* he ever took responsibility? | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what has been his invaluable contribution to maemo at large, except some pretty poorly written shellscript 10-liners that *we* tought him char by char | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and yet they were like WTF-of-the-week | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since he didn't listen and learn | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh , could somebody kick me please? | 20:45 |
| * kerio kicks DocScrutinizer05 on the shins | 20:45 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thanks | 20:46 |
| iDont | freemangordon, is there anything else to discuss regarding busybox? I'll make sure to do what you suggested, although I can't promise that it'll be completely done first thing tomorrow ;) | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: nobody expexts that, so relax | 20:46 |
| iDont | :-) | 20:46 |
| iDont | Otherwise I'll call it a day, got some plans for tonight (Friday!) | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: after all, we don't even have a pressing bug ticket against the whole thing | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: so I suggest you get a life, something I should finally try to do as well :-d | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 20:48 |
| iDont | hehe, true. Busybox-power in its current state does however fix quite a few maemo bugs (/feature requests) | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe, but how many users of N900 will not sleep due to thise bugs tonight? | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cssu is about the comfy feeling that you don't have to worry | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since there are other guys doing that for you | 20:50 |
| iDont | well, if they really can't sleep, they can alway apt-get install busybox-power! | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you wanna go bleeding edge or as 1337 as it gets, there are other ways you can do | 20:51 |
| iDont | regarding CSSU, who doesn't have that installed ;p | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, exactly | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cssu is first and foremost about bringing security fixes to users. 2nd about fixing long pending annoyances everybody suffers from, like e.g. portait (not a good example) or cpu-hog-bug in hildon-desktop (much better example) | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cssu is _not_ about "leading your people to the promised land" (like in holy bible) though | 20:54 |
| iDont | yup, I get what you're saying | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fine, probably I should take own advice and continue my ethanol intoxication enterprise somewhere else | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~seen estel_ | 20:55 |
| infobot | estel_ <~Estel@Maemo/Community/council/Estel-> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 6h 25m 16s ago, saying: 'happy trolling, i'm out.'. | 20:56 |
| iDont | hehe | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | byebye | 20:56 |
| iDont | I'm calling it a day as well. Everyone have a good one tonight! Bye! | 20:56 |
| *** iDont has quit IRC | 20:56 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | iDont: thanks for participating | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any enjoy your time | 20:56 |
| *** ivgalvez has joined #maemo-ssu | 20:57 | |
| *** ShadowJK has quit IRC | 20:57 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | <kerio> can't it be enabled on-demand? #### sure it should be optional | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and we already agreed on it going cssu-extras | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | minus the lib patch which is core system but for now seems to be safe | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yay, newsflashes | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 21:00 |
| *** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:04 | |
| *** ShadowJK has quit IRC | 21:12 | |
| *** ivgalvez has quit IRC | 21:23 | |
| *** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:25 | |
| *** javispedro has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:34 | |
| *** ShadowJK has quit IRC | 21:35 | |
| *** nox-- has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:35 | |
| *** nox-- has quit IRC | 21:36 | |
| *** nox-- has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:36 | |
| *** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:46 | |
| *** arcean_ has quit IRC | 21:52 | |
| *** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:53 | |
| *** ShadowJK has quit IRC | 21:54 | |
| *** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:54 | |
| *** arcean has quit IRC | 21:58 | |
| *** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu | 21:59 | |
| *** ShadowJK has quit IRC | 21:59 | |
| *** arcean has quit IRC | 22:07 | |
| *** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu | 22:09 | |
| *** javispedro has quit IRC | 22:17 | |
| *** ShadowJK has joined #maemo-ssu | 22:26 | |
| gregoa | kerio: cbs-widget: pali has pushed some fixes yesterday, and I've built packages for myself. so far they look good, at least the operator name doesn't vanish when I switch between 2G and 3G. if you want to try: wget http://info.comodo.priv.at/tmp/connui-home-cellular_3.1+nmu1_armel.deb ; wget http://info.comodo.priv.at/tmp/operator-name-cbs-widget_3.1+nmu1_armel.deb | 23:04 |
| kerio | gregoa: yay ^_^ | 23:07 |
| kerio | i'll try those | 23:07 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: i actually meant keeping both the stock one and the cb one saved, and loading one or the other depending on whether the user enables something in Settings | 23:08 |
| gregoa | kerio: let's hope they fix your problems too | 23:08 |
| kerio | gregoa: btw, one of those two packages is a fake | 23:08 |
| kerio | just fyi :) | 23:08 |
| gregoa | I know I know | 23:09 |
| kerio | sadly, the *wrong* package is a fake | 23:12 |
| kerio | gregoa: i'll have to test it for a couple of days i think | 23:23 |
| kerio | gregoa: not sure about you, but i don't always get the problem | 23:23 |
| * gregoa nods | 23:23 | |
| kerio | once i do, though, it stays there until i reboot | 23:23 |
| kerio | besides, i think it also depends on the cell i'm connected to | 23:24 |
| kerio | which makes the problem... "fun" to diagnose, i suppose | 23:24 |
| gregoa | with the latest version I could reproduce the "no op name" reliably by switching between 2G and 3G, and this effect is gone now at least | 23:24 |
| gregoa | btw, "killall hildon-home" seems to be enough for reviving it | 23:25 |
| kerio | it's always temporary for me | 23:25 |
| kerio | like, after i switch i get the wrong name/no name again | 23:25 |
| kerio | anyway, i suppose i can just leave operator-name-cbs-widget installed as a fake package | 23:26 |
| kerio | and reinstall the stock connui-home-cellular | 23:26 |
| kerio | :D | 23:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CHEEERS | 23:30 |
| *** arcean has quit IRC | 23:31 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | beefeater is quite nice, when dilluted in orrange juice | 23:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | -l | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | -r | 23:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh | 23:32 |
| *** arcean has joined #maemo-ssu | 23:32 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | friggin paperwork all over the world | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CV! >:-( | 23:33 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 shoots the C | 23:33 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the V separately | 23:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since when a CV ever told something really relevant about he person in question | 23:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I always hired my teams without any fancy CV, just on the merit they exposed to me | 23:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | competence, commitment, and character | 23:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 5 minutes of talk already tell you more than any friggin CV | 23:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 5 min of chat will do almost as well | 23:40 |
| *** andre__ has quit IRC | 23:47 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
