IRC log of #maemo-ssu for Monday, 2012-05-14

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merlin19912 hours time, and this time I didn't forget my notebook :D10:58
merlin1991perfect opprotunity todo some ham testing xD10:58
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merlin1991dang ham does not resolve conflicts11:34
Siceloyeah11:40
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LaoLang_coolHi, how to let the sms notification not be grouped into one?11:47
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merlin1991ooops I justrealized why my n900 and my laptop noked each other out of the wireless11:48
merlin1991they have the same mac address :D11:49
amiconnnoked? Does that rely to 'nokia'? ;)11:51
merlin1991:D11:54
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Sicelohuh? O.o12:14
Sicelosame MAC12:16
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merlin1991yeah I assigned my laptop mac to the n900 some time ago in some hotel where you got a key that bound your "free" internet access to the 1st mac address that connected12:24
* Sicelo buys merlin1991 Networking For Dummies12:26
Sicelo:D12:26
Siceloj/k12:26
merlin1991well back then I needed to route my traffic form my notebook through my n90012:27
merlin1991and in order to get a vali route from their fsckd router I just announced my n900 as my laptop :D12:28
merlin1991and then I quickly forgot what I did xD12:28
StyXmanheeh12:28
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merlin1991hm apt still works with my setup12:35
merlin1991now we only have to haxx0r ham12:35
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amiconnToday I wondered why my N900's clock is fast. Somehow ntpd must have crashed without me noticing (OOM killer?)13:07
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dafoxI actually have a semi-related question: is it possible (realistically) to use n900 without swap enabled? I tried it a few times last week, but it kept resetting...13:29
merlin1991nah13:30
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dafox'nah, not really', or 'nah, really not'?13:39
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merlin1991nah, no way you could every run maemo5 on a n900 without swap13:39
merlin1991s/every/ever/13:39
infobotmerlin1991 meant: nah, no way you could ever run maemo5 on a n900 without swap13:39
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dafoxah, ok13:43
dafoxthnx :)13:43
DocScrutinizerdafox: swapoff14:18
DocScrutinizerI did that a few weeks ago, been funny to see OOM killing all sorts of stuff14:18
merlin1991yeah you just watch oom slowly kill the full system :D14:19
DocScrutinizeranyway a freshly booted system doesn't really need swap14:19
merlin1991untill you open the browser14:19
merlin1991then it goes14:20
DocScrutinizeras in "free_ram > used_swap"14:20
merlin1991"not enough memory for this task"14:20
DocScrutinizeryep14:20
merlin1991"not enough memoery for this task"14:20
merlin1991I'm going to oom kill h-d now, have fun14:20
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dafoxstrange, when I did swapoff it rebooted after a short while, or when opening a task or so15:29
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freemangordonPali, ping20:20
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merlin1991Pali said he's here ~ 20:00, not earlier20:25
freemangordon20 UTC?20:25
merlin199120 cet20:26
freemangordonhowever, I need someone to help me with gnome-vfs-daemon crash20:26
freemangordonany volunteers?20:26
freemangordonI have coredump, and the issue is easy to be reproduced20:27
freemangordonarcean, MohammadAG ^^^20:28
ArieI'm here too if that helps20:29
Sc0rpiuswhat's the gnome-vfs-daemon for?20:29
freemangordonSc0rpius https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/osso-gnome-vfs220:31
MohammadAGfreemangordon, how can I help?20:31
freemangordonMohammadAG, find why g_assert (volume->priv->drive == drive); in gnome_vfs_volume_unset_drive_private fails :)20:32
freemangordonthat is when mounting a partition n sdcard20:32
freemangordonit is related to latest ke-recv improvements to automount all sd card partitions20:33
freemangordonArie, same for you :P20:33
freemangordonit does not make any difference who will do it20:33
freemangordonwant a backtrace?20:33
MohammadAGyeah, sure20:34
MohammadAGcoredumps aren't my specialty, haven't learned how to use them20:34
freemangordonit is very easy, just let me pastebin the backtrace and i will explain20:35
* merlin1991 hopes the channel isn't going to get completely overrun in 25 mins20:35
freemangordonmerlin1991, why is that?20:35
Ariefreemangordon: I'm no good in that, have the N9 in my hand at work, I'm more interested in listening since I'm running for the council, I want to be aware and helpful to the maemo community if I get elected.20:35
merlin1991I announced the meeting on the mailinglist :D20:35
freemangordonaah20:35
Sc0rpiuswell if you already  loaded the core in the debugger the backtrace from it will help20:35
freemangordonwell more bugchasers then :D20:35
freemangordonSc0rpius, actually you need first to attach to a running process and load the coredump after that20:36
freemangordonotherwise the backtrace will be inclorrect20:36
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Sc0rpiusI guess, since it's a library20:36
freemangordonthe same for executables20:37
freemangordonafaik20:37
MohammadAGmerlin1991, I announced it on twitter20:37
Sc0rpiusMohammadAG, are you actively developing Whazza (or helping with the develop)?20:37
merlin1991fuuuuu20:37
merlin1991:D20:37
MohammadAGSc0rpius, helping with issues20:37
freemangordonMohammadAG, http://pastebin.com/wW0asfcq20:37
merlin1991Sc0rpius: I thought whazzzzaaaa is a bud thing?20:37
MohammadAGwazapp :p20:37
Sc0rpiusbuit you haven't seen the source20:37
ArieMohammadAG: thank you for announcing it on twitter :)20:37
Sc0rpiusI made my own Whatsapp clone in Qt20:38
freemangordonand what the lell has wazapp to do with #maemo-ssu?20:38
freemangordon*hell20:38
Sc0rpiusbut it's far from ready for general use hehehe20:38
merlin1991the fact that people thing mag is involved ;920:38
ArieI have wazapp too and currently speaking to tgalal, it's real and coming for N900 too20:38
Sc0rpiuswell that's nice.20:39
freemangordonArie, that is great, but right now there is a bug in CSSU-testing I am trying to find the reason for20:39
Ariefreemangordon: my bad, carry on...20:39
MohammadAGmerlin1991, true20:40
MohammadAGand I'm not sure why20:40
MohammadAGanyway...20:40
MohammadAG#8  0x4004f728 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libhal.so.120:40
MohammadAG#9  0x4004f728 in ?? () from /usr/lib/libhal.so.120:40
MohammadAGrecompile libhal with debug?20:40
freemangordonyou don't need that I suppose, if you wish I can install hal-dbg too20:41
freemangordonno need for recompilation, i don't have hal debug symbols installed20:41
freemangordonthe problem is noit in hal20:41
* DocScrutinizer just hopes not everybody is so into a vivid discussion about this stuff that our meeting in 19min will not come thru20:41
freemangordon*not20:41
merlin1991MohammadAG: what's the state of your sb btw?20:42
MohammadAGnot that good merlin199120:42
Sc0rpiusI actually might see the problem20:42
MohammadAGI'm still figuring out how to reinstall it without destroying its /home20:42
Sc0rpius_gnome_vfs_volume_monitor_disconnected is called with the right pointer to drive20:42
freemangordonSc0rpius, that "1" you see as an parameter is just an optimised value20:43
Sc0rpiusbut when that function calls gnome_vfs_volume_unset_drive_private, drive = 0x120:43
Sc0rpiushow's that20:43
merlin1991in /scratchbox/sbin/ there is some unmount hting20:43
freemangordon:)20:43
freemangordonin reality the pointer is correct20:43
* DocScrutinizer ordered a 'new' lenovo t500 somehours ago, with *plenty* of space and grunt for several friggin SB20:43
merlin1991run that and after that mv your /home inside away20:43
DocScrutinizer:-)20:43
Sc0rpiusare you sure? it clearly says "out of bonds"20:43
merlin1991uh oh, suddenly doc will hack on ham :D20:43
Sc0rpiusbounds20:44
freemangordonSc0rpius, yeah, but that is from coredump20:44
freemangordonif you attach the debugger, the picture is different20:44
freemangordonor not, let me attach one20:45
freemangordonto doublecheck it20:45
DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: I suspect you hijack the chan on purpose? ;-P20:46
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: there's still plenty of time :D20:46
DocScrutinizerwell, there's stil like 12min left to finish your enterprise20:46
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Venemo_N950hey20:47
Venemo_N950am I late?20:47
MohammadAGno, you're early, GTFO :p20:47
Venemo_N950lol20:47
freemangordonDocScrutinizer, no , I have nothing better to do but to debug with gdb20:47
Venemo_N950I wasn't sure if it's utc+2 or utc+1 at my place20:48
DocScrutinizer:-D20:48
Venemo_N950it changes twice per year (called daylight saving? or whatever.), so I can't keep track.20:49
* DocScrutinizer looks at his kde system clock, reads "Argentina, New York, Jerusalem, Taipei, UTC" - smiles20:50
Sc0rpiuswell anyway let's say it is an optimized value20:50
Venemo_N950don't you live in Germany DocScrutinizer?20:50
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: guess whom for I got Jerusalem there20:50
Sc0rpiusthen somehow a volume in the drive list doesn't have the drive itself referenced in its private data20:51
MohammadAGnot me, I'm in Haifa20:51
MohammadAG:p20:51
freemangordonSc0rpius, confirming, the problem is that we have one and the same volume twice, for some reason20:51
DocScrutinizerVenemo_N950: basically my QTH is "SOL 3", at least in tmo ;-)20:51
Sc0rpiusthe same volume twice in the drive list?20:52
freemangordonSc0rpius,yes, because the way to reproduce that is to umount a volume and to mount it again on the same location20:52
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DocScrutinizermerlin1991: you already prepared your "talk" about what you've tested and are planning to implement?20:53
freemangordonthen gnome_vfs_volume_unset_drive_private is called twice, second time volume->priv->drive being 0x020:53
merlin1991sure20:53
DocScrutinizer:-)20:53
freemangordonthus the assert fails20:53
JaffaI may miss most of it20:53
JaffaSo look forward to reading the minutes20:53
DocScrutinizerJaffa: \o/20:54
Sc0rpiusyeah and it makes sense since it was unset in the first loop20:54
Sc0rpiusthe problem is not there20:54
freemangordonyeah20:54
Sc0rpiusthe problem is to fins where it is added twice to the drive list, or why it wasn't removed properly in the "umount"20:54
Palihi20:54
DocScrutinizerJaffa: we'd appreciate much your live input and feedback20:54
freemangordonmaybe when the volume is unmounted it is not removed from the list20:54
Sc0rpiusfind20:54
DocScrutinizerhi Pali20:54
Sc0rpiusexactly20:54
freemangordonhi Pali20:55
freemangordonBut i really want someone else but me to tke care of that bug, I really want to focus on thumb20:55
DocScrutinizer240 seconds20:56
merlin1991doc getting all itchy :D20:57
merlin1991arcean: ping20:57
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Will try via N9.20:57
DocScrutinizerfine with me20:58
DocScrutinizer:-)20:58
JaffaIs there a good IRC client, beyond screen + irssi?20:58
MohammadAGon?20:58
DocScrutinizerwebIRC?20:58
merlin1991Jaffa: was about to say quassel, but then realized that there is no harmattan build20:58
Sc0rpiusxchat?20:58
MohammadAGwe really need a bot for minutes20:58
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: n9 webbrowser fails on webirc20:58
DocScrutinizerdang20:58
ArieJaffa: on Harmattan irc chatter20:58
MohammadAGoh well, we'll handle it manually this time20:59
merlin1991MohammadAG:  http://maemo.merlin1991.at/cssu/bugmeetings/20:59
merlin1991all manually :/+20:59
MohammadAGlol20:59
MohammadAG30s20:59
MohammadAGI wanted #startmeeting and #info20:59
MohammadAGetc20:59
MohammadAGoh well, 5s20:59
MohammadAG#startmeeting21:00
DocScrutinizerWelcome to CSSU meeting - topic: how to implement an infra to deliver optional packages to CSSU21:00
merlin1991before we start the talking, who's here?21:00
* freemangordon is here21:00
MohammadAGHere21:00
* Sc0rpius is here but not sure if that matters21:00
DocScrutinizerhere21:00
Palihere21:00
JaffaJaffa (Andrew Flegg): former Council member, CSSU "advocate"21:00
Ariehere21:00
Jaffa(here)21:00
merlin1991Jaffa: taking things way to serious ;)21:01
DocScrutinizerthat's all fine21:01
merlin1991okay lets start with the current situation in cssu21:01
MohammadAG#attendees DocScrutinizer, merlin1991, freemangordon, Sc0rpius, Pali, Jaffa, Arie, and me21:01
merlin1991we have TV-Out, osso-applet-notificationlight, osso-applet-display, camera-ui and osso-calculator currently in cssu21:01
freemangordonas OSS replacements21:01
merlin1991they way we distributed them they replace the former nokia pacakges without any choice for the user21:01
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MohammadAGAlthough this may not be a problem for packages like osso-applet-notificationlight and osso-applet-display, the other packages may disrupt user experience21:02
DocScrutinizer(some do not, on Stable)21:02
JaffaBecause, as with all software, they have bugs21:02
JaffaAnd they have potentially more "advanced" features too21:03
MohammadAGAnd sometimes, user preference21:03
merlin1991yep21:03
freemangordonand sometimes bugfixes for long standing bugs21:03
MohammadAGA potential way to solve this was suggested by DocScrutinizer and merlin1991, to have another repository which holds these extras21:03
DocScrutinizerso users need a way to opt-in (or opt-out if opt-in isn't feasible)21:03
merlin1991also X-Fade was kind enough to fix the scripts on maemo.org to allow for a 3rd component (besides free and non-free) within the repo21:04
merlin1991(the component is called replace)21:04
MohammadAGor a separate component21:04
MohammadAGAt some point, I recall we had an OK from Nokia to have binaries copied from the Nokia-repo to our repositories21:04
MohammadAGthe problem here, is we need to bump the version number21:05
JaffaMohammadAG: We *may* need to have that email dug out21:05
MohammadAGor add an epoch21:05
MohammadAGI can dig it out21:05
freemangordonMohammadAG, which package you mean21:05
MohammadAGcamera-ui, revert to stock then move to replace component21:05
freemangordonas an example21:05
DocScrutinizerplease give room for merlin1991 to finish his introduction21:05
freemangordonok21:06
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merlin1991Docs an my suggestion a scheme like this: have the nokia packages as is, have the rewrite with a different package name conflicting the nokia pacakge, and a phony  package that conflicts the rewrite which just depends on the nokia package (in order to reinstall noia version if the user wants to)21:06
DocScrutinizeras it seems he did some tests and thinking last few days already21:06
merlin1991DocScrutinizer also suggested to ship a 4th package that allows to install the cssu version side by side to the stock version21:07
merlin1991this one ofc is only valid where it makes sense21:07
merlin1991Also we though for all that fancy stuff we could add a new user section to ham, something like user/CSSU21:07
MohammadAGMy response to this, this is too much to maintain, needs a lot of manpower, and may cause bugtracking to be hard21:07
merlin1991now while the idea is all nice and fine, atm it would only work with apt21:08
MohammadAGwith apt?21:08
merlin1991ham just errors out if there is a conflict between the pacakge to install and anything already installed21:08
DocScrutinizer:-/21:08
merlin1991though same as the added section that would be a small change to ham to allow replacing21:08
MohammadAGIn all possible solutions I have in my head, we HAVE to patch HAM21:09
MohammadAGand since CSSU extras requires CSSU, this isn't a problem21:09
Paliproblem in ham, because it does not use apt-get21:09
Paliham using apt-worker21:09
MohammadAGit uses apt-worker, both are open21:09
merlin1991actually as far as I could tell apt-worker even supports replacing21:09
Paliand patching apt-worker is not simple21:09
merlin1991it's only the gui that says nah I'm not going todo this21:09
Palithat software is stupid and bad21:09
MohammadAGReplacing it isn't a possibility21:10
Paliand rewriting HAM to use apt-get is hard work21:10
DocScrutinizerwe already replaced HAM afaik21:10
freemangordonI agree with MohammadAG re needed resources. And don't get the idea of implementing such a complicated packaging scheme in -testing. Or I miss something and we are comenting only -stable21:10
Jaffaham and apt-worker aren't that bad to work with21:10
JaffaIME21:10
merlin1991freemangordon: it's all about -testing21:10
merlin1991not going to introduce a devel ham into stable :D21:11
DocScrutinizeryet21:11
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, no, we didn't21:11
DocScrutinizerJaffa: thanks21:11
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MohammadAGwe upgraded it, but the path Pali seems to be taking is discussing a full HAM replacement21:11
MohammadAGala fapman21:11
DocScrutinizerno way21:11
MohammadAGwhich is the point I made21:11
Jaffabad idea imho21:11
MohammadAGvery bad21:12
merlin1991I would suggest to just augment ham enough for the scheme to work21:12
DocScrutinizer+121:12
MohammadAGHey GeneralAntilles21:12
MohammadAGHere's my suggestion:21:12
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MohammadAGModify HAM and add XB-Maemo-Flags: cssu-rewrite21:13
freemangordonmerlin1991, why we need that in -testing, who will do all the replacement packages and how you will chase the bugs reintroduced because of the nokia binaries?21:13
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: exactly in line with merlin199121:13
MohammadAGPackages with cssu-rewrite, will appear in Install/Download section of HAM, ONLY IF maintainer is not Nokia21:13
DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: you seem to miss the point21:13
PaliMohammadAG, adding maemo-flags will decrease speed of HAM21:13
freemangordondon't think so21:13
MohammadAGPali, it already looks for them21:14
freemangordonDocScrutinizer ^^^21:14
merlin1991freemangordon:  why we need it in testing, because we're not going to test drive that in stable, who will do the packaging, probably me, bugs is a good question though21:14
Paliparsing other strings will decrease speed21:14
MohammadAGUpdates will show packages that are cssu-rewrite and current maintainer is NOT nokia21:14
MohammadAGPali, it already parses XB-Maemo-Flags...21:14
Paliham now for each package test if has some flag (ssu?)21:15
MohammadAGok21:15
MohammadAGWe'll go with User/Rewrites section21:15
Paliand adding other test case if has some other flag will decrease speed 2x21:15
MohammadAGor User/CSSU21:15
freemangordonmerlin1991, but what is the purpose of -testing then, and how we assume a package in -testing is stable enough to go to -stable, if we don't have any clue how many users actually are using it?21:15
MohammadAGif a package falls under User/CSSU, test current maintainer (of installed package), if none or Nokia, show in Install, if not Nokia, show in Updates21:16
DocScrutinizerPali: continental drift speed of HAM is mainly caused by building list and by updating repo-db. Parsing strings is basically for free21:16
MohammadAGif a package doesn't fall under User/CSSU, return from function/test, that shouldn't slow it doewn21:16
freemangordonwe are throwing all the quarantine stuff through the window21:16
PaliDocScrutinizer, no, if you disable parsing that strings HAM will be fast21:17
PaliI played with HAM and with that strings21:17
MohammadAGQuoting Nokia email21:17
MohammadAG[quote]21:17
MohammadAGHi all,21:17
MohammadAGI got an answer from the legal dpt and it is ok to distribute the non-free certman applet binaries in the CSSU repo @repository.maemo.org<http://repository.maemo.org> after they have been released in the Nokia PR1.3.1 SSU update. Before that happens, distributing them is not possible, unfortunately.21:17
MohammadAGIf you have any more open questions about this, please don't hesitate to ask.21:17
MohammadAG[/quote]21:17
merlin1991freemangordon: how does the quarantine work? I ask on here if people found problems with $x and decide upon that + my experience, also I'm pretty sure tmo users are all going to install each and every package within user/CSSU they can find :D21:17
DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: that's a good point (how many tests were run on an optional pkg)21:17
MohammadAGunfortunately it only states we can distribute certman applet21:18
merlin1991MohammadAG: tbh I don't think it's such a problem21:18
freemangordonmerlin1991, if you are sure that noone will revert back to nokia binaries, why is all that exercise?21:18
MohammadAGmerlin1991, I'm just pasting the quote for Jaffa21:18
merlin1991freemangordon: I'm sure a minority will revert21:18
MohammadAGfor those that want to revert they can always apt-get --reinstall install old version?21:19
MohammadAGfor HAM to support that, we'd need to add install-by-version21:19
Palicertman applet is now opened, so that permission for certman is irrelevant now21:19
merlin1991MohammadAG: I meant it this way: the ssu repos are still up: we just can depend on the nokia version in the revert phony pacakge21:19
merlin1991which is visible in ham which is the whole idea why it needs to be there in the first place21:19
DocScrutinizerguys, we're not distributing Nokia binaries21:20
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: my words21:20
DocScrutinizerwe're for sure not providing them via CSSU repo21:20
merlin1991also has someone a completely different idea maybe?21:21
DocScrutinizerso, let's agree on this being a nonissue, and focus on the main topic again?21:21
MohammadAGso how do we downgrade?21:22
DocScrutinizerdowngrade?21:22
freemangordonso, why do we downgrade?21:22
merlin1991MohammadAG: simple, ie camera-ui21:22
DocScrutinizeryou mean from cssuR pkg to Nokia pkg?21:22
MohammadAGyes21:22
freemangordonand what is wrong with camera-ui?21:22
MohammadAGfreemangordon, there's a goal for this meeting21:23
freemangordonleaving polotical reasoning aside.21:23
merlin1991camera-ui in cssu turns into camera-ui2, or camera-ui-cssu and we introduce a new package camaera-ui-nokia which depends on camera-ui=nokiaversion21:23
DocScrutinizeryou a) uninstall camerui-cssuR, or b) you install cameraui-NOKIA21:23
freemangordonMohammadAG, yes, shall I agree with it?21:23
MohammadAGno, you'll discuss it21:23
freemangordonthat is what I am trying to do21:23
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, that doesn't work in the sense of HAM21:23
MohammadAGmerlin1991, that's all fine and stuff, but won't work with HAM21:24
merlin1991MohammadAG: thus my initial text stating we need to augment ham :D21:24
MohammadAGif we need to augment HAM, I see no reason to have more than one package21:24
DocScrutinizerso what's your alternative?21:25
MohammadAGEither that, or we have a simple switch in HAM21:25
MohammadAGand we go with your suggestion21:25
merlin1991so you'd prefer to stay in the original package name and swap how ham handles it depening on @nokia maintainer?21:25
MohammadAGI actually don't see a problem with your suggestion now21:26
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: we need a per-app switch21:26
MohammadAGexcept that it needs more man-power21:26
MohammadAGso, for apps that have a rewrite, we need to have HAM show a switch for the app21:26
DocScrutinizerin merlin1991's concept this "switch" is the pkgname-ending21:26
merlin1991my main idea for the suggestion was to keep it still doable under apt, since quite a lot of people work with apt on the device21:27
MohammadAGand in GUI talk, it's a simple toggle21:27
merlin1991having a fancy compare maintainer logic inside ham won't help us anything with commandline apt21:27
merlin1991and since we have to adjust ham anyway I'd opt for a way that keeps apt in tact21:27
DocScrutinizerwon't fly21:27
DocScrutinizerKISS21:27
MohammadAGhuh?21:27
DocScrutinizerkeep it simple, stupid21:28
MohammadAGthis is simple?21:28
DocScrutinizera few packages with same basename and unambiguous extensions? yes21:29
ArieFrom an outsiders perspective merlin1991's idea seems to be the easiest for end users21:29
merlin1991imo this is more than simple, it's about 20 lines to each control file, and a few other files withint /debian and then htis flies21:29
MohammadAGI don't mind merlin1991's suggestion21:30
DocScrutinizerArie: you'll see acme-NOKIA, acme-cssuR, acme-cssu in HAM, with comments "acme-NOKIA: original package", "acme-cssuR: FOSS rewrite that replaces original NOKIA acme", "acme-cssu: this is a concurrent install of acme that can get used alternatively to original Nokia acme. Start it by clicking on acme-cssu icon"21:32
DocScrutinizeryou picj either, on your own discretion21:33
DocScrutinizerpick*21:33
ArieDocScrutinizer: I think that's a great way to do it21:33
DocScrutinizerfor some pkgs some of the alternatives may not be available21:34
merlin1991mainly the side by side option is going to be not avaiable for most pkgs21:34
DocScrutinizerindeed21:34
DocScrutinizerI can see this for exatly two pkgs now: camera and OMP21:35
merlin1991calc21:35
DocScrutinizercalc21:35
DocScrutinizeryep21:35
_ade_worldclock replacement?21:35
Arieeither way, it simplifies so much for all people involved21:35
arceanwhat about FOSS control panel applets?21:35
merlin1991arcean: they are going to be take them or not21:35
DocScrutinizerarcean: those are mutually exclusive21:35
merlin1991side by side for cp applets is stupid imo :D21:36
arceanyeah :D21:36
MohammadAGactually for cp panels as simple as display and notifications, I don't see why we should move them21:37
DocScrutinizerJaffa: you're still with us?21:37
MohammadAGthey introduce no regressions whatsoever21:37
Palitvout21:37
MohammadAGtvout is more than those21:37
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: they introduce regressions for me21:37
MohammadAGwhat?21:37
freemangordonisn't it clear?21:37
arceanehh21:37
DocScrutinizerI don't like nor need the orientation-lock21:37
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I'm not talking about that21:38
merlin1991orientation-lock is not a cp pannel applet21:38
merlin1991it's status-area ;)21:38
freemangordonthe whole camera-ui talk for the past several months21:38
DocScrutinizerooh, so please explain for me21:38
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, the "Display" and "Notification lights" applets in control panel21:38
MohammadAGthose aren't Nokia's, they're replaced21:38
MohammadAGI'm guessing you didn't notice them21:39
DocScrutinizerprobably21:39
MohammadAGthose are simple, and they don't introduce regressions21:39
merlin1991they were introduced in 20.2010.36-2maemo1121:39
MohammadAGabout 10 versions back?21:40
DocScrutinizerwell, by the orthodox commandments they should go to optional21:40
merlin1991actually 19 version ;)21:40
DocScrutinizerbut I'm not too orthodox regarding this :-)21:40
merlin1991but yeah we can easily make them optional with the suggested scheme, without a high impact on anything21:40
DocScrutinizerexactly21:41
DocScrutinizerwe can even decide to have opt-in as well as opt-out pkgs for the ooptional ones21:41
arceanso even if the camera-ui-cssu doesn't introduce any regressions it will be always in Extras repo?21:41
merlin1991yes21:41
merlin1991though users can always just install it and use it21:41
MohammadAGalthough I prefer otherwise, this seems to be the best way for everyone21:42
Ariemerlin1991: why?21:42
MohammadAGit's the best compromise apparently21:42
merlin1991Arie: the whole make things optional idea comes from the fact that some people deem the rewrites inferior, nonsuitable, whatver, and thus should have an easy way not to use them21:42
DocScrutinizerArie: eventually we'll come up with a metapackage of some sort that allows users to go "bleeding edge" and install all optional packages with one click21:43
Ariemerlin1991: how are the rewrites inferior?21:43
MohammadAGArie, he said some people21:43
merlin1991Arie: I'm not saying they are21:43
MohammadAGArie, since you don't find them so, you're part of the other group21:43
merlin1991:)21:43
arceanthen I'm afraid no one will work on replacements21:44
merlin1991also freemangordon I'd use that system to actually speed up integration of new rewrites since it's the user choice then and we can introduce not so perfect packages aswell this way21:44
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DocScrutinizerwhy?21:44
Ariemerlin1991: we should leave then in testing the21:44
Ariethem*21:44
freemangordonI see it as a waste of time and manpower. We have a bunch of bugs to fix, there are bugfixes to CRITICAL bug staying only on gitorious, but no, we should but camera-ui where it belongs. meh21:44
DocScrutinizermerlin1991: good point21:44
freemangordon*put21:45
merlin1991freemangordon: I wouldn't slow down cssu dev for this next realease is going out when mag fixed his fsckd sb21:45
merlin1991I'll try to get the scheme set up on the side and when it's ready get it deployed21:45
merlin1991untill then business as usual I'd say21:45
DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: we're NOT discussing camera here, we're planning CSSU future and try to find a way to keep it maintainable21:45
merlin1991freemangordon: do you have other objections beside that it's a waste of time?21:46
DocScrutinizerwe already got requests (or already did) to include/replace camera, OMP, worldclock, calc, others will follow21:47
freemangordonmerlin1991, yes, my question on how we will test new fixes in -testing is still unanswered21:47
DocScrutinizerwe need a way to handle all this21:47
freemangordonand what you will do with regressions caused by nokia binaries21:48
DocScrutinizer??21:48
merlin1991blame them on the nokia ones, bugs for nokia packages are wontfix21:48
freemangordongreat21:48
merlin1991since we can't do anything about them in ANY way21:48
merlin1991and our "fix" for them is the rewrite21:48
DocScrutinizerexactly21:48
merlin1991keep in mind that the whole thing only applies to replacements for closed blobs21:49
merlin1991everything like ke-recv is still goverened by the cssu mp and "forced" onto everyone21:49
DocScrutinizerif some fix is mandatory for CSSU *system*, then there will be no optional install, rather the fix goes to CSSU core21:49
freemangordonok, what about -testing quarantine?21:49
freemangordonthe one before the package goes to stable21:50
merlin1991I'll probably extend it for the optional components to make sure they are troughoutly tested21:50
DocScrutinizerI think this will be manageable21:50
freemangordonhow, we will have absolutely no clue if anyone has installed the package in question at all21:50
DocScrutinizerdo we have that clue now?21:51
merlin1991freemangordon: at least we will have it installed21:51
freemangordonyes, every user of -testing has all the latest packages in -testing repo installed21:51
DocScrutinizeresp do we have a clue who *used* any app we ship via CSSU?21:51
freemangordonand for sure there are -testing users21:51
freemangordonyoiu mean camera-ui?21:52
freemangordoni can bet21:52
merlin1991freemangordon: I for exmaple didn't use modest the first year I head my n90021:52
arcean-testing users expect the lastest packages from CSSU inc rewrites21:52
DocScrutinizerI'm NOT discussing camera21:52
merlin1991so I would have been a -testing user that didn't test modest, even though it was updated by the cssu21:52
DocScrutinizerbtw we can decide to include any arbitrary set of optional pkgs to come by default with Testing21:53
merlin1991it's -testing after all21:53
DocScrutinizerwhile same pkgs for stable will stay opt.in21:53
DocScrutinizerarcean: I don't think so21:54
freemangordonI agree that scheme like proposed would make sense in -stable, but for -testing it makes no sense to me21:54
merlin1991freemangordon: in the long run I want this for stable, but it has to be proven in -testing prior to getting it there21:54
DocScrutinizerarcean: testing users expect to be *able* to use latest bleeding edge21:54
ArieDocScrutinizer: this I agree with21:54
freemangordonDocScrutinizer, lets not talk in the name of people we don't know, ok?21:54
DocScrutinizerI don't think it's demanding too much from users when they need to opt-in to worldclock once we ship it as optional pkg - after all they only do that once21:55
DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: why do you tell me? not arcean ?21:56
freemangordonDocScrutinizer, I don't mind to do it for FUTURE packages, but lets not make a mess with the one corrently in repos21:56
merlin1991freemangordon: actually I agree with that21:56
DocScrutinizerfreemangordon: I'm not discussing any such perspective now21:56
DocScrutinizerit's about the functionality and how to implement it21:57
merlin1991I would suggest to use world clock replacement as a first trial for the whole thing21:57
DocScrutinizeryep21:57
DocScrutinizersounds reasonable21:57
freemangordonand here is the point we agree21:57
freemangordon_ade_ ?21:57
_ade_yes?21:57
merlin1991afer we've seen how bad / well this goes we can move on from there21:57
Ariereally? lol21:58
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DocScrutinizerArie: ??21:58
merlin1991_ade_: how do you feel about having your world clock replacement as the guinea pig to test our new and great deployment scheme for rewrites? :D21:58
Ariei supporr it21:58
freemangordon_ade_, are you stl want adeclock in CSSU. Will you support it, do you like it to be an optional component, etc...21:59
Ariesupport*21:59
_ade_as I said before, I want to be the maintainer if needed21:59
DocScrutinizerit's a component that has both optional and replacing properties, so is a perfect guinea pig22:00
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: optional? how do you want todo optional?22:00
_ade_If it it optional or not is the CSSU decision22:00
freemangordon_ade_, this was some time before, thus my question is it still a valid statement :)22:01
freemangordonmerlin1991, maybe in the same way as orientation lock in -stable?22:01
merlin1991I think Doc actually meant side-by side there22:01
merlin1991since it would be optional by definition :D22:01
DocScrutinizeryep22:01
freemangordonaah, yes22:01
DocScrutinizerI don't know, what's wrong with optional worldclock-cssu?22:02
merlin1991same thing why I'd say no side by side, notficiation light applet22:02
merlin1991simply silly to have 2 applets in a small space22:03
DocScrutinizeruser decides to have woldclock-nokia, worldclock-cssuR, or worlclock-cssu AND worlclock-nokia22:03
merlin1991also _ade_ can answer this the best22:03
DocScrutinizerooh, I never looked into worldclock22:03
merlin1991his code might interfere with a running nokia applet22:03
DocScrutinizerso I'm only assuming it could be optional. I'm not at all sure about that22:04
merlin1991since it's the wakeup stuff is part of that aswell22:04
freemangordonmerlin1991, status area applet and d-bus server could be 2 different things, but yes, it is best _ade_ to throw some light on it22:04
_ade_both clocks the same time installed would not be my choice22:05
_ade_Worldclock replacement does not interfere with applets22:05
DocScrutinizeryeah, but is it feasible and not brealing things? is it too much overhead to allow it?22:05
DocScrutinizerbreaking*22:06
DocScrutinizerdoes it make any little bit of sense at all to run them concurrently?22:07
_ade_It does not break things (as long as you do not start them both for sure)22:07
DocScrutinizermhm22:07
DocScrutinizerso it's started voa an icon?22:07
DocScrutinizervia*22:07
merlin1991DocScrutinizer: it's the time thing in your status menu22:08
DocScrutinizerooh22:08
_ade_no, just like the current clock at the moment (it replaces it)22:08
merlin1991Uhr & Wecker on your german n900 ;)22:08
DocScrutinizerthen it's hard to see any concurrent usecase22:08
merlin1991my words :D22:08
DocScrutinizera pity22:09
DocScrutinizer:-)22:09
DocScrutinizerwell, it's HAM for user to switch then22:09
_ade_running both at the same time could perhaps give some alarm queue conflict, but chances are small that will happen22:09
DocScrutinizernah, forget concurrently running both22:10
DocScrutinizerswitching back and forth between nokia WC and CSSU WC via HAM is it then22:10
freemangordonhmm, having both installed in the same time does not make sense22:10
DocScrutinizeryes22:11
freemangordonDocScrutinizer, :nod:22:11
merlin1991btw _ade_ does it use translations?22:11
DocScrutinizermerlin1991: are we done with meeting?22:11
DocScrutinizeror any more open questions, rants, whatever?22:12
_ade_yes, the alarmclock clock translation and it borrows from a few other standard translation files22:12
DocScrutinizerJaffa: still with us?22:12
freemangordon_ade_, that should be ok, merlin1991 has .po RE command written in a note :P22:12
merlin1991I think we can conclude that we'll run a trial with the worldclock replacement when ham is ready?22:13
DocScrutinizerfine with me22:13
DocScrutinizerwho's tackling HAM?22:13
freemangordonand a milion dollar question - who will modify HAM?22:13
merlin1991well I'm pretty sure you don't want to :D22:13
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_ade_merlin1991: can you arrange a CSSU git location for the replacement clock?22:13
merlin1991so if Pali doesn't feel like it will be me22:14
DocScrutinizerI guess at least specs need to be done by merlin199122:14
merlin1991_ade_: sure22:14
merlin1991_ade_: do you have a gitorious account?22:14
_ade_I do22:14
merlin1991post a nick :)22:14
freemangordonDocScrutinizer: even better - the whole coding, as it seems he has the clearest idea of what functionality should be added22:15
DocScrutinizerindeed22:15
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merlin1991freemangordon:  I'm going to get nightmares from ham code :D22:15
_ade_adekker is my git name22:15
freemangordonmerlin1991, nah, you will have push/pop nightmares, ham will be when you need some rest :P22:16
DocScrutinizerso I like to thank everybody attending. I'm busy with RL in a few minutes22:16
merlin1991_ade_: I've added you to the cssu-developers group on gitorious, repo will be ready soon, and you should be able to push to it then22:17
_ade_merlin1991: thanks22:17
freemangordonmerlin1991, what do you thing about idea to create a SB instance on your server and give MohammadAG access to it?22:18
freemangordonbe it virtual machine or something22:18
merlin1991he's just going to fsckd my server ;)22:18
DocScrutinizerlol22:18
freemangordonnooo, nooo, no root access :D:D:D22:18
merlin1991yeah I could set up a virtual machine, though I have nfc about that, so I would need some docs22:19
merlin1991but in general a cssu ready image of a recent debian might be handy actually22:19
DocScrutinizeryou probably could set up a chroot for him22:19
freemangordonyou can set it up without using virtual machine, with automated call to /scratchbox/login or something like that22:19
merlin1991_ade_: what is the name of the original nokia package?22:19
* DocScrutinizer waves22:20
freemangordonclock-ui?22:20
merlin1991freemangordon: actually my main reason not todo this is to keep gcc faaaaar away from my dom0 :D22:20
freemangordon:D22:20
_ade_yes, it is clock-ui22:21
Ariei'm gonna go guys thank you for the informative talk22:21
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MohammadAGfreemangordon, I'm reinstalling sb atm22:21
freemangordonMohammadAG, that is great :p22:22
freemangordonI was on my way to setup a vmware instance for you22:22
freemangordonnot kidding22:22
merlin1991_ade_: https://gitorious.org/community-ssu/clock-ui22:23
_ade_I will try to place it there tomorrow (and I am not a git expert btw)22:23
freemangordonmerlin1991 if we finished with the "official" meeting, may i continue my gnome-vfs-.. bug chasing?22:24
merlin1991yep22:24
merlin1991ofc you're free to bug chase whenever you feel like :)22:24
freemangordon:D22:24
freemangordonMohammadAG, Sc0rpius: is anyone of you going to take care of "gnome-vfs-.. bug"?22:25
* amiconn wonders where to report that a maemo package (not cssu) is broken22:26
Sc0rpiuswell not me  :S22:26
freemangordonamiconn, maybe on bugtracker22:26
merlin1991amiconn: most maemo packages have a component on bugs.maemo.org22:26
merlin1991also the packages should have a filed pointing to a bugtracker / email / forumthread / whatever22:26
amiconnHAM offers an upgrade for 'luxus', but when trying to install that it tells me the package is broken22:27
freemangordonamiconn, better look at last tab22:27
freemangordonthere should be more descriptive error message22:27
merlin1991bugtracker for luxus is toni@tuug.fi :D22:27
amiconnThere are not tabs. Just an error message with Yes/No buttons22:28
MohammadAGSo the meeting's over?22:28
merlin1991MohammadAG: yep22:28
MohammadAG#endmeeting22:28
MohammadAGfor the fun of it :p22:28
freemangordonamiconn, well, pester toni then :P22:28
merlin1991we were close enoug to cutting each others throat so it was best to stop ;)22:28
amiconns/NOT/NO/22:28
amiconnerr22:29
freemangordonMohammadAG, [22:23] <freemangordon> MohammadAG, Sc0rpius: is anyone of you going to take care of "gnome-vfs-.. bug"?22:29
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JaffaSorry. Got disconnected.22:57
* Jaffa reads scrollback. Lots of sensible discussion23:04
JaffaWho got the action to write up the plan on the ML/wiki for a) future refrence, b) ensure everyone _did_ understand it and c) to communicate the vision?23:04
merlin1991I guess that's my job aswell23:05
JaffaTa23:06
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MohammadAGInstalling nokia-binaries...23:20
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