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| Sicelo | :) | 00:15 |
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| merlin1991 | ssl certs are a seriously flawed business | 00:46 |
| * merlin1991 shakes head | 00:47 | |
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| vizzy | hi, someone here know ozymo.com? u see my n900 making connections to mail.ozymo.com ... i dont requested | 02:05 |
| vizzy | i tried now to install/switchto cssu, when clicking stable button, ham loads and says operation not successful and cancels without installing or asking anything, any tips? | 02:44 |
| vizzy | already read faqs, but no hint | 02:48 |
| vizzy | can i install cssu from console to get a bit more useful output other than : operation failed (vorgang fehlgeschlagen) which is very unuseful | 02:52 |
| vizzy | i really hate such messages, i feel like in windows now.... unless its missing weird error codes | 02:52 |
| merlin1991 | vizzy: in the title bar menu there is the log | 03:00 |
| merlin1991 | (in ham) | 03:00 |
| vizzy | hmpf, :) already rebootet | 03:01 |
| vizzy | now it seems to work, no errors so far and ham asked me to add the repo... seems fine now... hopefully ... | 03:01 |
| vizzy | hmmm, the log is somewhere on the disk? or is it deleted on every start of ham? | 03:02 |
| vizzy | should be a normal dpkg log somewhere in /var or? | 03:02 |
| vizzy | but i miss the series of questions i should answer | 03:03 |
| vizzy | it did something but not asking, now its finished.... should i run now the scripts? or wait until it awakes and continues? | 03:04 |
| vizzy | i also dont see comunity scripts in my program list | 03:05 |
| vizzy | ok, i am too fast for this little computer *g now something pops up and ask for confirmation, that explains | 03:07 |
| vizzy | now it complains about running ham, but its not running, and no software updates warnings, ... reboot | 03:10 |
| vizzy | i never rebootet a device that often | 03:10 |
| merlin1991 | hehe | 03:25 |
| merlin1991 | sadly maemo purges all dpkg logs | 03:25 |
| merlin1991 | so you can just hope for the best | 03:26 |
| merlin1991 | also ham takes forever for everything :D | 03:26 |
| vizzy | ok, os updated :) | 03:36 |
| vizzy | but i have mentioned a few things | 03:36 |
| vizzy | before installing ssu package, battery was at 20%, i plugged in power, and after reboot its 80% | 03:36 |
| vizzy | cant be | 03:36 |
| vizzy | also, i was enabling cssu for getting the modified hildon desktop, but its not there | 03:37 |
| merlin1991 | bme tells bs all the time | 03:37 |
| merlin1991 | check in xterm | 03:37 |
| vizzy | bme? bs? | 03:37 |
| merlin1991 | dpkg -l hildon-desktop | 03:37 |
| merlin1991 | bme is the deamon for battery stuff | 03:37 |
| merlin1991 | and bs is bullshit :D | 03:37 |
| vizzy | :)) | 03:37 |
| merlin1991 | what version does it report for h-d? | 03:38 |
| vizzy | 1:2.2.142-16.2 | 03:38 |
| merlin1991 | that one includes modified h-d stuff | 03:39 |
| vizzy | so the modified desktop comes with cssu update? aaah | 03:39 |
| merlin1991 | yep | 03:39 |
| vizzy | that means i can enable now the 9 screens? | 03:40 |
| merlin1991 | yep | 03:40 |
| vizzy | this is done via commandline stuff, correct? | 03:40 |
| merlin1991 | nah | 03:40 |
| merlin1991 | you can select them in the screen selection thingy | 03:40 |
| vizzy | in settings? | 03:40 |
| merlin1991 | desktop -> cogwheel -> manage views -> scroll right and click | 03:41 |
| vizzy | i should change my language on the device, using german.... which makes things more complicated to find | 03:42 |
| vizzy | ah, desktop settings :) cogwheel.... just learned a new word | 03:42 |
| merlin1991 | ansichten verwalten ;) | 03:42 |
| vizzy | woot, awesome! | 03:43 |
| vizzy | ok, thats really cool, i got out of space on my 4 desktops... using as a repacement for program folders | 03:44 |
| vizzy | so, what is suggested to manage installed apps? mymenu, apmefoo, or catorize? or is there some sort of 'very cool program menu' | 03:45 |
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| merlin1991 | I don't have so many apps so I never checked the stuff to make folders :D | 03:56 |
| vizzy | :) | 03:59 |
| vizzy | i installed tons of apps.... for me its not a phone, has no simcard, i use it just for accessing my servers, emails , irc maybe and ue it as mobile computer when in the garden, i have a small weatherstation there and 3g internet through openwrt router :D | 04:00 |
| vizzy | but most important is tuxpaint, which is just awesome to see on that n900 , otherwise i would get trouble with my daugther hehehe | 04:02 |
| vizzy | erm, now i wanna install new apps, but ham says i need to remove as-utils, cherry, dsme-thermalobject-surface, microb-geolocation, rtcom stuff | 04:26 |
| vizzy | what is that? | 04:26 |
| vizzy | the package description for this is ... useless? at least for me, tells me nothing | 04:28 |
| vizzy | shoudl i remove or not? is it save or can i brick my phone? | 04:28 |
| SpacedOut | vizzy: As long as you have a working USB port, you can't brick it. You can loose all your data if you have to do a full reload instead of just the root filesystem. | 04:40 |
| vizzy | i can live with that :) im still testing and a reflash would not be critical unless it wont brick :) ok, will remove now | 04:41 |
| vizzy | thx | 04:41 |
| SpacedOut | vizzy: The packages you mention are installed for me, and I would say important. | 04:42 |
| vizzy | apt-get autoremove removed them now | 04:42 |
| vizzy | cherry is first user install, ok | 04:42 |
| SpacedOut | If only it had aptitude to get a better idea the dependencies and why it is wanting to remove them. | 04:42 |
| vizzy | and the other stuff seems unneeded or historical | 04:42 |
| vizzy | hmmm, there is aptitude, i saw it in the repo, devel maybe :) | 04:43 |
| SpacedOut | Is wireless going to work without rtcom? | 04:43 |
| vizzy | hmmm, im still connected | 04:44 |
| vizzy | rtcomm stuff was only facebook plugin and voip | 04:44 |
| vizzy | but ill see after another reboot ... | 04:45 |
| SpacedOut | The thing that's saved me from reflashing was building my own power kernel with the framebuffer built in, so I can see the early messages and if I screwed up any critical startup scripts, and recovering by booting with the watchdog timers disabled. | 04:45 |
| vizzy | yeah, i also would like to see a 'normal' linux startup screen, white text on black console with lots of cryptuc stuff | 04:46 |
| vizzy | when it comes to mobile devices... i feel dumb | 04:46 |
| vizzy | but i never crosscompiled... if it had a linux kernel source and gcc, i would make my own, but on the device itself | 04:47 |
| SpacedOut | It's possible to setup the sdk and development packages in a chroot environment on the N900, But it's pretty easy to setup the scratchbox install on a full desktop, and given the ram/power constraints of the N900 that's what I'm doing. | 04:50 |
| vizzy | hmmm | 04:50 |
| vizzy | not yet :) i still have to mess with the program list | 04:50 |
| vizzy | apmefo, i dont understand what this app should do... | 04:51 |
| vizzy | maybe i should sell it again, its all getting too time consuming.... | 04:54 |
| vizzy | i wonder how people use a n900 as a phone.... i would take hours to find the phone app, hahahaha | 04:55 |
| vizzy | the program menu seems to have no kind of sorting, or the guys who wrote that were totally stoned | 04:57 |
| SpacedOut | It's sorted, if you don't like it re-arrange it yourself, I have the few I use at the top. | 04:58 |
| vizzy | sorted in a way that i dont understand... but not a-z, not by sort of app, not by category, not by anything..... | 05:02 |
| SpacedOut | Hold down on one of the icons long enough and it lets you arrange them however you want. | 05:04 |
| vizzy | yes, but thats a pain, sorry | 05:05 |
| vizzy | and not a solution at all | 05:05 |
| SpacedOut | You're top picks probably aren't mine. | 05:06 |
| vizzy | so, apmefo, ... argh, delete! ill go back to mymenu, its weird and stupid, but at least i get some sort of folders..... and i can learn that gps is under system, and camera app is in multimedia , ... pah | 05:06 |
| vizzy | SpacedOut, ill try to use the n900 as a laptop replacement for some rare cases, but i spent too much time on it to make it a bit useful | 05:07 |
| vizzy | maybe sell it and get a small legacy x thinkpad, a bit more weight, but 1000% more comfortable | 05:08 |
| vizzy | and real linux flavour, like black boot screen with cryptic chars on it.... , i give up for today/night, now spent >12h on it, that cant be good | 05:09 |
| SpacedOut | vizzy: Depends on what form factor you're looking at. Anything bigger than the N900 and I wouldn't be pocketing it. There's supposed to be a KDE tablet coming out... | 05:21 |
| vizzy | kde4 i guess, ouch, thats why im staying legacy with debian..... | 05:21 |
| vizzy | i would buy a mac before using kde4 .... unless someone sends me a cool modern thinkpad, but unfortunately its no more ibm but plastic china lenovo, hahahaha | 05:22 |
| vizzy | but the n900 demonstrates what will happen if big companies try to make an opensource device. its really nice, but i miss basic things that must be developed by free time coders | 05:23 |
| vizzy | imho nokia should spend some millions to all the maemo devs... they earned enough with that nice piece of hardware , and hopefully someday it could beat thos iphones and galaxys | 05:25 |
| vizzy | but as long as they believe in non paid free time coders, its kind a fail. | 05:25 |
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| wmarone | vizzy: you do realize what you said is complete nonsense, right? | 07:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer | vizzy: are you intentionally trolling or just silly? | 08:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | apmefo has maybe an awkward ugly UI, but you don't need that UI too often (only when you decide to arrange your icons new, or got new icons due to newly installed apps) | 08:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | only thing you NEVER must do when you got apmefo: use the appstarter menu drag&drop icon positioning. It will conflict with apmefo and kill your folder structure. You need to start apmefo and "save" you still existing custom setting again | 08:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | to recover | 08:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm using apmefo since >1 Year and it's absolutely *great* | 08:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | and since CSSU I have the option to "lock spplauncher editing" (or whatever it's called) that keeps me from dragging icons in starter menu accidentally | 08:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | vizzy: so please stop this silly bitching. If you got problems using N900 the way you want (which btw seems exactly what I use it for as well) then you're welcome to ask for help and advice here any time. But if you want to continue show off your lack of clue how things and world (Nokia development) work, prepare for this chan frown at that habit and we will take measure against that annoyance | 08:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer | vizzy: (apmefo, i dont understand what this app should do...) you use apmefo to create new subfolders to show up in your appstarter (main) menu. You assign icon to folder, you arrange folders and icons sorting *in* *apmefo*(!!), you add apps to your new subfolders in apmefo - even to multiple subfolders (e.g. I got subfolders "core apps", "system" and "utilities", among others. Phone is in "core aps" and "utilities", filemanager is in " | 08:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | system" and "utilities"). Finally you hit the "save" button in apmefo for each (bunch of) edit you do, and close apmefo -> enjoy new appstarter (aka launcher) experience, with your own sorting and submenu icons | 08:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | vizzy: btw my N900 desktop #1 has phone icon, and for sure it doesn't take hours until I find that | 08:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | you know: click on empty area in desktop, click the gear icon that appears upper right (->entering edit mode), open menu (click upper left resp "desktop-menu"), select "add shortcut"... | 08:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | drag your new phone icon to location on screen where you like it best, click "done" (or whatever it's in your locale) upper right corner | 08:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | vizzy: sure there are a few apps/pkgs (mainly in extras-devel) that really mess up your N900 and for a new inexperienced user it might get hard sometimes to immediately realize "this was no good idea to install that app, so roll back right away" | 08:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer | that's why extras-devel (and -testing) are not recommended for use by newbies | 08:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer | and >>NEVER USE apt autoremove<< | 09:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | basically using apt-get is a bad idea especialy if you don't know what you're doing - and it's hard to know what you're doing, when it comes to maemo and package management | 09:12 |
| * amiconn wonders why 'apt-get dist-upgrade' wants to remove busybox on his N900 | 09:13 | |
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| * DocScrutinizer wonders what makes amiconn think 'apt-get dist-upgrade' was any good idea | 09:24 | |
| DocScrutinizer | once again: 'apt-get dist-upgrade', 'apt-get autoremove', and yes, basically also 'apt-get update' are all *DEPRECATED* | 09:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | err, sorry | 09:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | 'apt-get upgrade' is also deprecated, 'apt-get update' of course NOT | 09:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | maemo packaging as done by Nokia is a very strange thing, that's basically incompatible with usual way to use apt | 09:35 |
| amiconn | Just checking what would be upgraded, not actually letting it do that | 09:39 |
| amiconn | It looks like ham doesn't upgrade everything (not even the equivalent of 'apt-get upgrade') | 09:39 |
| DocScrutinizer | to make things even more interesting, Nokia introduced some flaws in dependencies only for some of the methods you might have used to get a recent PR version (1.3.1). E.G. it seems apt-get autoremove - as well as fapman et al which are frequently invoking this or similar commands of apt - will uninstall quite a number of system relevant libs - only if you updated from previous PR bur not if you flashed the complete OS. OR vice versa. | 09:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | See http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=70875 >>SIP gone in "Call type"?<< | 09:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | we still are struggling with that for every new release of CSSU, and we haven't found a comprehensive explanation and workaround for it | 09:42 |
| DocScrutinizer | yet | 09:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer | look at the list of things apt thinks "are no longer needed" :-/ | 09:52 |
| amiconn | Can't the dependencies be fixed in the repositories? | 09:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | probably they should be able to get fixed, yeah | 09:53 |
| DocScrutinizer | but for some odd reason all the guys that looked into that had no permanent success | 09:54 |
| DocScrutinizer | fact is we still suffer from that nasty auto-remove of rtcom-accounts-voip-support in CSSU | 09:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | on some devices | 09:56 |
| amiconn | Btw, apt-get dist-upgrade doesn't want to remove busybox on my N900 because it thinks it's no longer needed, but because it conflicts with a bunch of utility packages it wants to install instead | 09:57 |
| amiconn | Basically the full-blown utilities of which busybox provides cut-down versions | 09:57 |
| amiconn | What irritates me is that these utility packages don't include a shell. I *do* have bash4 installed, but I'm not sure whether the alternatives handling will makes this one the default shell if busybox gets removed | 09:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | quite probably not | 09:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | removing busybox will probably result in bootloop anyway | 10:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | as initscripts do (or did) depend on busybox'isms and fail with proper unix tools | 10:00 |
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| DocScrutinizer | dunno if Nokia brushed out those flaws from maemo initscripts meanwhile | 10:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer | all hail to posix which defines the commands and their mandatory parameters, but NOT the exact formatting of returned stdout prints | 10:04 |
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| * amiconn wonders whether there's a way to make ian image of the N900 setup | 10:06 | |
| amiconn | So that you can test things like this, and if it breaks just restore the image | 10:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | though here the problem wasn't even the format of STDOUT but rather some defaults that were insane for busybox builtin, IIRC | 10:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | amiconn: backupmenu is your friend ;-D | 10:07 |
| amiconn | Output formats are a strange thing | 10:07 |
| amiconn | A desktop example is that the built-in 'time' command of bash has a rather different default output format than the stand-alone 'time' executable | 10:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | well, those examples a legion | 10:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | head/tail another PITA in messybox, though even manpages for those tools suggest to rather not use them ;-P | 10:10 |
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| amiconn | Can you restore a backupmenu backup if the N900 doesn't boot? | 10:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | no, but you can flash a clean system, install backupmenu, then restore the prev image | 10:12 |
| amiconn | ah | 10:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | or use the backupmenu image robbiethe1st provided IIRC | 10:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | I.E plain system fiasco *with* *backupmenu* | 10:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer | so what you would think optimum was "flash my_custom_fiasco.bin" - what you can do is "flash backup_fiasco.bin; backupmenu-restore my_custom_system.tgz" | 10:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer | there's a tool fiascogen that *could* create a fiasco.bin from your backup, I think. Alas it runs on x86 desktop PC AIUI and is not really easy to wrap into polished tool for users | 10:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer | also probably closed crap | 10:18 |
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| Kiborg | Hi | 13:00 |
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| Kiborg | ... | 13:29 |
| Sicelo | hi. | 13:32 |
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| Kiborg | Hi | 14:22 |
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| zk565s | Hi | 14:24 |
| zk565s | I have some questions about cssu | 14:24 |
| andre__ | don't ask to ask, just ask. | 14:29 |
| andre__ | (and be patient - it's IRC) | 14:29 |
| merlin1991 | amiconn: you asked if there is a way to make an image of your current setup | 14:34 |
| merlin1991 | actually there is | 14:34 |
| merlin1991 | thouhg I don't have the link anymore | 14:34 |
| merlin1991 | you can build your own snapshot image that you can flash at any time | 14:35 |
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| zk565s | so I am thunking about upgrading my N900 to CSSU | 15:12 |
| zk565s | *thinking | 15:12 |
| merlin1991 | that does not qualify as a question ;) | 15:12 |
| zk565s | I have the latest Maemo version from Nokia 1.3.1 | 15:13 |
| zk565s | What can I expect to gain from it | 15:13 |
| zk565s | ? | 15:13 |
| zk565s | I checked al the data on maemo.org | 15:13 |
| merlin1991 | depends if you want to go for stable or testing | 15:14 |
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| zk565s | stabile, I am no programmer so I see no point in going for untested versions | 15:14 |
| zk565s | But what do I actually gain? Faster OS? New better programms? | 15:16 |
| merlin1991 | you get a new better email client | 15:16 |
| merlin1991 | 5 more dekstop | 15:16 |
| merlin1991 | possibilty of portrait in a few places | 15:16 |
| merlin1991 | a few security fixes | 15:17 |
| zk565s | can the new mail client synch with thunderbirds callendar (lightning)? | 15:18 |
| merlin1991 | nope | 15:20 |
| merlin1991 | it's only an update to modest | 15:20 |
| merlin1991 | which generally works a lil faster | 15:20 |
| zk565s | does it fix the slowing down issue? How the 1.3.1 gets slower and slower as time gos by and than you must restart it all. | 15:22 |
| zk565s | ? | 15:22 |
| andre__ | I don't think that outcomes like "it generally gets slower" can easily be tracked down and fixed by one commit | 15:22 |
| andre__ | zk565s, was the issue tracked down or do you have more info? | 15:24 |
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| merlin1991 | hehe timeout | 15:30 |
| merlin1991 | andre__: I darkly remember about some memory leak fix, but I might be wrong thoug | 15:31 |
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