| Win7Mac | yes | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Oksanaa | Somehow, there should be a failsafe that Board cannot ignore Council several times in a row | 00:00 |
| peterleinchen | oksanaa, the other mentioned stuff is no responsibility but task of council | 00:01 |
| peterleinchen | this also will not work | 00:01 |
| peterleinchen | council must nothave any power over board | 00:01 |
| Oksanaa | yes, but council should not be exactly powerless, either. | 00:02 |
| peterleinchen | even if repeatedly asked for something, board should not be pushed by council | 00:02 |
| Oksanaa | What was the double dissolution in old rules? /me doesn't exactly remember it/ | 00:03 |
| peterleinchen | do you belive council could have pushed Nokia to do something? | 00:03 |
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| peterleinchen | council is collector/gateway | 00:04 |
| juiceme | council is the contact point for community members | 00:04 |
| Oksanaa | Hmm... No. But Nokia had interests different from Maemo... | 00:04 |
| peterleinchen | ? | 00:04 |
| juiceme | in a mildly put way yes :) | 00:04 |
| Win7Mac2 | Council (potentially unknown people) cannot and never should force the people who have to show responsible into anything | 00:05 |
| peterleinchen | agreed | 00:05 |
| Oksanaa | Okay, does it mean that we get to have a Board representative sitting on Council meetings, instead of Nokia representative? | 00:05 |
| juiceme | a company always has different priorities than a non-profit community endeavour :) | 00:05 |
| juiceme | Oksanaa, that's not mandatory but not forbidden either. | 00:06 |
| Win7Mac2 | well, currently juiceme is both... ;) | 00:06 |
| *** Win7Mac has quit IRC | 00:06 | |
| juiceme | true. but when I am in council I have my councillors hat on | 00:06 |
| Win7Mac2 | but that shouldn't be mandatory | 00:07 |
| Win7Mac2 | right | 00:07 |
| Oksanaa | If it was mandatory in Nokia times, it would be good to have it mandatory for Board, too... ;-) | 00:07 |
| Win7Mac2 | Oksana, you see MC eV board similar to Nokia board? | 00:07 |
| Win7Mac2 | we're on our own... | 00:08 |
| peterleinchen | was it reallymandatory? | 00:08 |
| Win7Mac2 | nokia was another party... | 00:08 |
| * Oksanaa offers to put "Council election rules can be changed by GA resolution, not only PM referendum" into separate part of referendum, from HiFo->MCeV . Because MCeV can function if Council election rules are changeable by referendum only, right? | 00:11 | |
| juiceme | well, the thing is that we _do_ govern our own destiny now. the community is the highest authority. | 00:11 |
| juiceme | If you want an analogy, the members meeting is the shareholders meeting, which elects the board. | 00:12 |
| * Oksanaa will believe it when at least half of PM gets into GA | 00:12 | |
| juiceme | PM? (I am slow today...) | 00:13 |
| Oksanaa | Passive Members | 00:13 |
| juiceme | ah of course | 00:13 |
| juiceme | silly me | 00:13 |
| Win7Mac2 | Oksana, yes, MCeV can function if Council election rules are changeable by referendum only, right! | 00:13 |
| juiceme | but, Oksanaa, it will never happen :( | 00:14 |
| Win7Mac2 | probably after the referendum... ;) | 00:14 |
| juiceme | one can hope | 00:14 |
| juiceme | all we can is encourage people to participate | 00:15 |
| Win7Mac2 | basically yes | 00:15 |
| Oksanaa | So, it should be separate question on ballot paper. Or somebody will vote against MCeV simply because he doesn't like the idea of GA changing Council election rules | 00:15 |
| Win7Mac2 | Oksana, a third option would be doable | 00:16 |
| Oksanaa | Okay. So, "yes to MCeV and GA changing Council election rules", "yes to MCeV and Council election rules are changeable by referendum only", "no to changes" | 00:17 |
| juiceme | Oksanaa I guess there always is the possibility of people voting insensibly, it is one of the basic tenents of democracy; you are allowed to make stupid choises! | 00:18 |
| Win7Mac2 | like "Yes, but..." make Council election rules a seperate document which community only can change (and still be a part of MC eV) | 00:18 |
| peterleinchen | this will be the most work consuming option | 00:19 |
| peterleinchen | and it will not change the council position (no power over board) | 00:19 |
| Win7Mac2 | But Referendum really is a Council decission, I can only provide help with bylaws. Not sure if option 3 really is desired | 00:20 |
| peterleinchen | council is just volunteering to help out Maemo alive | 00:20 |
| Win7Mac2 | peterleinchen, right! | 00:20 |
| Oksanaa | So, is it defined anywhere that Council's task is to bring up various concerns and responsibilities to the Board? | 00:20 |
| Win7Mac2 | ^^ to the above | 00:20 |
| peterleinchen | that is something we could bring into the bylaws, but to what avail? | 00:21 |
| Oksanaa | And option 3 is to make sure that anybody can vote anything, even a "stupid" choice | 00:21 |
| Win7Mac2 | so just because? | 00:21 |
| peterleinchen | there are evne more stupid coices possible :( | 00:22 |
| Win7Mac2 | there is a direction for such a ref... | 00:22 |
| Oksanaa | By bringing Council's task into bylaws, we make sure that Council will not be turned into "just election machine" | 00:23 |
| juiceme | well we don't _want_ to give choices that end up gonig nowhere | 00:23 |
| Win7Mac2 | juiceme, right | 00:23 |
| Oksanaa | And if too many people choose option 3, we will have to gather feedback why tey voted so | 00:23 |
| juiceme | Oksanaa, that is a valid point too. | 00:24 |
| Win7Mac2 | Defining in blaws that Council's task is to bring up various concerns and responsibilities to the Board is no problem | 00:24 |
| Oksanaa | Option 2 should theoretically make sure that nobody has any reason to consider MCeV worse than HiFo. 4weeksvs1month is too minor a change to separate it out | 00:25 |
| Win7Mac2 | i can incorporate that in next version, ok? | 00:25 |
| peterleinchen | thought so, yes just do it | 00:25 |
| Oksanaa | :-D | 00:25 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac2, I am in favour of adding that in council's official tasks. | 00:25 |
| Win7Mac2 | good | 00:26 |
| Win7Mac2 | ;) | 00:26 |
| Win7Mac2 | anything else? | 00:26 |
| Win7Mac2 | ...on your whishlist... ;) | 00:26 |
| juiceme | how was the decision or was there anything yet... on the voting options? | 00:27 |
| Win7Mac2 | oh, right... | 00:27 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac2, no, otherwice it looks good | 00:27 |
| Oksanaa | Three voting options? /hopefully/ | 00:28 |
| juiceme | I am a bit tired so I dropped off... is it 2 options or 3? | 00:28 |
| juiceme | and what were the options again? | 00:28 |
| Oksanaa | "yes to all change", "yes to MCeV, but Council election rules can be changed by referendum only, not by GA", "no to all changes" | 00:29 |
| juiceme | does the middle option mean, that will always be so or only now once? | 00:30 |
| Win7Mac2 | Defining in blaws that Council's task is to advise board would be incorporated in YES option | 00:30 |
| Oksanaa | always be so, unless bylaws are changed? | 00:31 |
| Win7Mac2 | always | 00:31 |
| Win7Mac2 | i mean, just like any decission is meant for time being... | 00:31 |
| juiceme | okay | 00:32 |
| * Oksanaa is not sure whether incorporate Council's task into option 2 or no... | 00:32 | |
| Win7Mac2 | want 4 options? | 00:32 |
| peterleinchen | no | 00:33 |
| Oksanaa | Maybe. Not sure. | 00:33 |
| Win7Mac2 | tha'd be ridicules... | 00:33 |
| Oksanaa | Maybe, a separate referendum on that, if option2 happens to win | 00:34 |
| Win7Mac2 | *that'd | 00:34 |
| Win7Mac2 | why not a whole set of refs? | 00:34 |
| Win7Mac2 | seriously... | 00:34 |
| * Oksanaa is hoping that nobody will be picky about 4weeksvs1month... | 00:35 | |
| peterleinchen | what is the problem to add that "tasks" of council in general, for all three options? | 00:36 |
| * Oksanaa agrees | 00:36 | |
| Win7Mac2 | peterleinchen, for the NO option it doen't make sense | 00:36 |
| peterleinchen | you are right and not | 00:37 |
| peterleinchen | even we put council aside from eV we may have such thing inside, as it does notharm. or? | 00:37 |
| Oksanaa | No option doesn't make much sense. But if HiFo miraculously remains, it does not hurt to have "task" incorporated into bylaws | 00:38 |
| Oksanaa | NO* option | 00:38 |
| peterleinchen | win7mac: erm, you are right. | 00:38 |
| Oksanaa | :? | 00:39 |
| peterleinchen | oksanaa, the #no' option would mean council is not affiliated with eV | 00:39 |
| Win7Mac2 | HiFo may remain (because we *will* have trouble shutting it down), but everything is on the way to being transferred | 00:40 |
| Win7Mac2 | to MC eV | 00:40 |
| Win7Mac2 | peterleinchen, exactly ^^ | 00:40 |
| peterleinchen | an interest group that can do, decide, change on their own, but not related to eV | 00:40 |
| Win7Mac2 | ... | 00:41 |
| peterleinchen | in other words: a dead alive (or similar) | 00:41 |
| peterleinchen | nothing more at the moment? | 00:47 |
| peterleinchen | then I would like to quit for sleep | 00:47 |
| peterleinchen | but asking all here to read again, possibly edit/comment via mail and get that thing agreed in next meeting (hopefully) | 00:48 |
| peterleinchen | for our other topic the next council election: | 00:49 |
| peterleinchen | I would like to propose to postpone that election a week or two until we get that refrendum text fixed | 00:49 |
| Win7Mac2 | +1 | 00:49 |
| peterleinchen | and announce / hold both together | 00:49 |
| Win7Mac2 | +1 | 00:50 |
| Win7Mac2 | Ok, so I will set up a new version of the 2-option ref. (incl. defining council task to advise board) and a 3-option ref. It will be in your mailbox asap. | 00:50 |
| Win7Mac2 | I suggest that you discuss it via mail as sone as you have it. And put it on the agenda to internally decide on which ref. you want to put. Please pester all members about it that lately didn't show up. | 00:50 |
| peterleinchen | I am calling council to vote for my proposal, too | 00:50 |
| Win7Mac2 | so next meeting should decide on ref. and announce it + elections | 00:51 |
| Win7Mac2 | would be great | 00:53 |
| juiceme | thank you all, this has been a productive meeting ! | 00:54 |
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| chem|st | pong | 01:29 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac2: pong | 01:30 |
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| chem|st | Oksana: juiceme get this to your discussion on council@maemo.org https://etherpad.mozilla.org/k4wjy57rHC | 17:56 |
| chem|st | I will have a look the next days | 17:56 |
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