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| juiceme | hi o/ | 22:01 |
|---|---|---|
| chem|st | o/ | 22:01 |
| chem|st | no reply from cybette via email, stskeeps was on fosdem no reply either | 22:02 |
| chem|st | juiceme: are you up to speed with the e.V. proposals? | 22:02 |
| juiceme | well, I have rear up the proposals from win7mac | 22:03 |
| chem|st | what of those would you like to see most and why? | 22:03 |
| Win7Mac | Hi o/ | 22:03 |
| chem|st | board would like to get going on with this topic asap | 22:04 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: o/ | 22:04 |
| juiceme | On first thought I was against the proposal that there'd be a small fee for active community members but then again, it _does_ kind of make sense... | 22:04 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: pingpong | 22:04 |
| Win7Mac | just added a post: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1410964#post1410964 | 22:04 |
| chem|st | juiceme: that fee thing is bogus | 22:04 |
| chem|st | that is up to us not forced by law | 22:04 |
| juiceme | well, if it's small enough ~5eur/y | 22:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | moin | 22:05 |
| Win7Mac | well, it could apply for active members, but not for community | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Sorry I'm still not feeling like there was anything I could contribute. Consider me diseased | 22:05 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: hehe worked^^ | 22:05 |
| juiceme | I see nothing against it, and it might enchance up sense of community | 22:05 |
| chem|st | juiceme: for me that part of doc questioning why we need hifo made me think | 22:06 |
| juiceme | the idea that if you are part of active community you can participate in council is good | 22:06 |
| chem|st | juiceme: that is the same as now | 22:06 |
| juiceme | well, there needs to be some legal entitiy, but I am not really fleshed po in these mattes | 22:06 |
| chem|st | so you did not quiet understand, let me explain | 22:07 |
| juiceme | okay | 22:07 |
| chem|st | by law: | 22:07 |
| chem|st | an e.V. needs a board of directors, that could be one person but that is nothing what we want or think is good | 22:08 |
| chem|st | and it needs ordinary members to vote upon things, that is at least 3 people | 22:08 |
| Win7Mac | for board, nothing much change, same dutys/resposibilities | 22:08 |
| juiceme | yes | 22:09 |
| chem|st | basically paperwork handling funds and contracts | 22:09 |
| Win7Mac | right | 22:09 |
| chem|st | and provide an office address and contact for authorities | 22:09 |
| Win7Mac | exactly | 22:09 |
| Win7Mac | nad thats about it | 22:09 |
| Win7Mac | ...for board | 22:10 |
| chem|st | now we have one problem, we had the community vote upon the hifo board which was ok but is actually clustering at a point it is not needed | 22:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just one note: I don't appreciate the idea to abolish council, nor the plan to boost it to a few hundred people. My God, the meetings would become unbearable, and council never would be able to find any decision | 22:11 |
| Win7Mac | a new council is no problem at all | 22:11 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: that was never intended, that was part of the brainstorming and is off the table | 22:11 |
| juiceme | I kind of think it would not be hundreds of people, when you look into the votig statistics | 22:12 |
| chem|st | juiceme: we are talking council and that stays 5! | 22:12 |
| juiceme | what I think, active contributors would number some tens at max | 22:12 |
| juiceme | okay, so what about the other proposals in the posting by Win7Mac | 22:13 |
| chem|st | so default ordinary members would be council+board | 22:13 |
| chem|st | juiceme: he wanted to ask the community on input... what I'd like to do is ask for input on one specific proposal and how to change that to fit us instead of giving 4 options which all are unfit yet | 22:14 |
| chem|st | so let me further elaborate | 22:15 |
| juiceme | please do so :) | 22:15 |
| chem|st | now we would have the extraordinary members - community with XXXkarma and so on vote upon council | 22:15 |
| chem|st | then have council vote upon board | 22:16 |
| Win7Mac | what? | 22:17 |
| chem|st | left out in this yet is the maemo staff, which should also be part of the ordinary membership | 22:17 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: pardon! | 22:17 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: that is exactly what I told you 4 days ago, don't what me | 22:17 |
| juiceme | well, I agree that techstaff is toally orthogonal on this, no need to be on the same organization chart | 22:18 |
| chem|st | and finally becoming an ordinary member: | 22:18 |
| chem|st | is forced by being voted into council | 22:18 |
| chem|st | is requested for techstaff | 22:18 |
| chem|st | is a requirement to become board member | 22:19 |
| chem|st | can be requested by any community member with reason | 22:19 |
| chem|st | little explanation on why board is no more voted on by whole community but just by council: | 22:20 |
| chem|st | the board of an eV has A some requirements like EU citizenship plus we should reduce the fluctuation on the board - it does not need a new chair/secretary/treasurer or even office address every year, if the people are happy in that position and we are happy with them leave them there... | 22:21 |
| * chainsawbike agrees | 22:22 | |
| juiceme | The board is the organ that has the financial/legal responsibility, yes? | 22:23 |
| Win7Mac | juiceme, yes | 22:23 |
| chem|st | juiceme: to have sysops and techstaff within the e.V. as members is a legal attempt - as they are working on a record unlike now | 22:23 |
| chem|st | juiceme: yes and it reports directly to the ordinary members | 22:23 |
| chem|st | chainsawbike: any input/ideas/questions? | 22:24 |
| chem|st | cahnging board and e.V. address needs to be filed at court and needs a notary to sign == fees | 22:25 |
| juiceme | well it takes some digesting but I think you are on the right track here | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ++ | 22:25 |
| chem|st | juiceme: you are the one needing to write it in minutes^^ | 22:26 |
| chem|st | :D | 22:26 |
| chainsawbike | chem|st, other than avoid a fee to prevent excluding those who cannot easily make international payments no | 22:26 |
| chem|st | it is the kde proposal in some way adapted | 22:26 |
| juiceme | chem|st, ya, I'll be writing them :) | 22:27 |
| chem|st | chainsawbike: when all this goes through, there is a list of accounts I need to setup... one will be a bitcoin exchange-account... | 22:27 |
| chem|st | and as we are all about free and opensource why not free and opensource money? | 22:28 |
| juiceme | regarding the fee, even as it is not legal requirement I still think it is a good idea. | 22:28 |
| juiceme | after all, many people contribute without any pressure in any case... | 22:28 |
| chem|st | juiceme: true, that will hold off people joining for fun | 22:29 |
| chem|st | or requesting | 22:29 |
| juiceme | yse, it will strengthen the sense of community | 22:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which is the whole point in that for any e.V | 22:29 |
| chem|st | in kde you need someone from internal to support your request to get even the possibility to apply | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and almost every e.V. bylaws know exceptions from mandatory fee for special cases. Usually some instance in e.V. orga decides on fee exemption | 22:30 |
| juiceme | that is pretty exclusive, i dont' think that is necessary | 22:30 |
| chem|st | greenpeace had years ago membership fees variable, anything +5DM | 22:31 |
| juiceme | i think that is a good way to go, some mnimum yearly fee, that you can add up to if you want to support more | 22:31 |
| juiceme | but no priviliges to be bought, either. | 22:32 |
| chem|st | 10eur/a sounds doable for anyone, bylaws can hold an paragraph about requesting exemption at the office | 22:32 |
| chem|st | juiceme: no ordinary members without being council are members without voting rights | 22:33 |
| chem|st | at least that is what I thought may be a good deal | 22:33 |
| juiceme | yes | 22:33 |
| chem|st | if there will be more ordinary members than council they could just rule the place and make council obsolete | 22:34 |
| juiceme | mmmhh, yes. | 22:34 |
| chem|st | so lets call it honorary members (is that the correct word?) | 22:35 |
| juiceme | and council is voted on yearly basisi? | 22:35 |
| chem|st | 6month like now | 22:35 |
| juiceme | would it be sized 5 persons? | 22:35 |
| chem|st | ordinary members are council+board, honorary are all others | 22:35 |
| chem|st | yes 5 | 22:36 |
| juiceme | what's the role of honorary members? | 22:36 |
| chem|st | 5 council, 3 board chair+office, treasurer and secretary of defence ehrm of affairs | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sidenote: e.V. or anybody can't abolish council (neither HiFo council nor maemo council), nor the HiFo entity. So you have to integrate what's already existing, into any new e.V. | 22:37 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: yeah thats why it stays exactly that way | 22:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 22:37 |
| chem|st | juiceme: honorary are requested memberships and staff | 22:38 |
| chem|st | without voting powers | 22:38 |
| chem|st | (was looking for that word 4 days ago...) | 22:38 |
| juiceme | okay, as executive officers | 22:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otoh nothing says the e.V. board has to be identical with HiFo board | 22:38 |
| chem|st | executive officers? | 22:38 |
| juiceme | I mean, without voting powers, but being assigned with a task | 22:39 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: the only thing I was worried is: can we disolve like this without the need to have the whole community vote upon it? | 22:39 |
| juiceme | support, councel, | 22:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | once everything is set up, a community referendum could unify e.V and old HiFo entity (just like we did with maemo and HiFo council) | 22:40 |
| chem|st | juiceme: not necessarily, hmembers might be completely free of tasks within the eV | 22:40 |
| juiceme | what does the current bylaws say about changing form of the foundation? | 22:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you can't | 22:41 |
| juiceme | chem|st, okay, but what is their role, responsibility then? | 22:41 |
| chem|st | what we can do is we can give the money to e.V. and dissolve... | 22:41 |
| chem|st | ^^ | 22:41 |
| chem|st | juiceme: paying yearly fee | 22:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know, maybe it's possible, yes | 22:42 |
| chem|st | an e.V. is like a soccer club | 22:42 |
| juiceme | DocScrutinizer05, so there is only one way, to break up completely and then reform as something different... | 22:42 |
| chem|st | you can become member without playing soccer at all | 22:42 |
| chem|st | juiceme: well we go the referendum way, enough sane people there to vote upon it | 22:43 |
| chem|st | as soon as this is done I/win7 can file papers with the notary | 22:43 |
| juiceme | voting would be safest, then there's no backsaying to it later | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I doubt a legal entity like HiFo can simply dissolve | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly not according to PA laws | 22:44 |
| chem|st | if all tax papers are filed and taxes payed you may seize | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which would void any contracts | 22:45 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: everything clear so far or do you want to change/discuss this further now? | 22:45 |
| juiceme | does the HiFo dissolving need a lawyer/notary to act on it, will it be costly? | 22:45 |
| chem|st | juiceme: might cost a few bucks but not like 2k | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HiFo cannot dissolve | 22:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | unless you want to negotiate new contracts everywhere | 22:46 |
| chem|st | everywhere? there is only iphh... | 22:47 |
| juiceme | hm, that so? | 22:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, so contract with Nokia is already off the table completely then, by now? | 22:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | vBulletin | 22:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ? | 22:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tmo ownership? | 22:48 |
| chem|st | no, the contract has a paragraph about this fitting our needs, we just need to make Nokia aware officially but they cannot deny | 22:48 |
| chem|st | vbulleting is in my posession | 22:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | good | 22:48 |
| Win7Mac | sorry, was afk | 22:48 |
| chem|st | and that cannot be changed | 22:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | see how that simplifies things? | 22:49 |
| Win7Mac | HiFo can transfer all of its assets | 22:49 |
| chem|st | we recognized it in the process | 22:49 |
| chem|st | was actually not my intention but we learned that ownership of that license can only be changed once | 22:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on a completely different topic: every garage member already has an account and a homedir on maemo infra. I suggest creating an app that allows making use of that "cloud storage" | 22:51 |
| chem|st | sure in this case it simplifies but otoh tmo is currently my liability... | 22:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as a service from maemo.org to maemo community | 22:51 |
| juiceme | chem|st, bulletin board licence? | 22:51 |
| chem|st | yes | 22:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | heck, we even could offer VPN | 22:52 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer51: adding webdav,caldav and carddav? | 22:52 |
| juiceme | DocScrutinizer05, so it is possible ti distribute own sources & packages from garage? | 22:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | chem|st: maybe. Or simply sftp | 22:53 |
| chem|st | ehrm nope | 22:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | juiceme: no | 22:53 |
| juiceme | okay | 22:53 |
| juiceme | so just for personal use | 22:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at least not meant to be allowed | 22:53 |
| chem|st | you can easily fckup a system with inodes of 10k people's files... | 22:53 |
| juiceme | :) | 22:54 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: any input on the backscroll? | 22:54 |
| chem|st | or is that fine with you? as you said you do not want kde but something similar | 22:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HiFo (e.V) may offer this as a paid service | 22:55 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: that is the next thing, how do you like Maemo e.V.? | 22:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hm? | 22:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not available for anything like that | 22:56 |
| chem|st | what do you mean? | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't like any e.V. | 22:56 |
| juiceme | as a name for the e.V, ? | 22:56 |
| chem|st | yeah | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm afraid I soon won't be available for anything | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anymore | 22:57 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: was only about the naming | 22:57 |
| chem|st | not founding a third thing^^ | 22:57 |
| juiceme | Is the name Maemo available then? | 22:58 |
| chem|st | juiceme: maybe we get that sorted by then... _fingers-crossed_ | 22:59 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: ping me when you have more on it I get going after the meeting | 23:00 |
| chem|st | juiceme: DocScrutinizer05 anything else? | 23:01 |
| juiceme | there's already been lots :) | 23:01 |
| juiceme | how about the voting, wil that be arranged? | 23:01 |
| juiceme | it does take some time to get it organized, I assume | 23:02 |
| chem|st | juiceme: yea sorry for that, you probably wait for a fancy graph by win7mac to include it to your minutes | 23:02 |
| chem|st | yeah voting will be announced at the time needed | 23:03 |
| juiceme | yes, that'll do fine | 23:03 |
| Win7Mac | sorry, got disturbed | 23:03 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, I'll put up your graphs to the minutes. | 23:03 |
| Win7Mac | yea, I'll update the diagram accordingly | 23:03 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: no problem, thought you might want to add/question/change/enhance my thoughts before we close | 23:03 |
| Win7Mac | well, my idea was exactly to exclude regular members for voting... | 23:04 |
| Win7Mac | *was NOT | 23:04 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: hehe so the idea of honorary members suites you? | 23:04 |
| chem|st | eh was not to exclude? | 23:05 |
| Win7Mac | you're using that term for extraordinary members | 23:05 |
| Win7Mac | well, my idea was NOT exactly to exclude regular members for voting... | 23:05 |
| chem|st | elaborate | 23:05 |
| juiceme | this term "extraordinary" confuses me a bit, you use it to mean less-than-ordinary, now? | 23:06 |
| juiceme | kind of external | 23:06 |
| Win7Mac | I thought of council as a group/commitee within regular members, voted by either regular members or extraordinary... | 23:06 |
| chem|st | juiceme: what is the bad word for extraordinary? | 23:07 |
| Win7Mac | guys, look at the diagramm, extraordinary members = community | 23:07 |
| Win7Mac | = simple users, no voting rights for them | 23:07 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: it is about what the english word means... as superpowers are extraordinary | 23:07 |
| juiceme | chem|st, not a bad word, but usually "extraordinary" as I understand it, means better-than-ordinary | 23:08 |
| juiceme | exactly | 23:08 |
| chem|st | juiceme: me too but I bite my tongue on that as I have no clue what it is called in english | 23:08 |
| juiceme | ah, so it is a direct translation from German, that makes sense then :P | 23:09 |
| chem|st | yeah it does | 23:11 |
| juiceme | extraordinary is fine with me, then. | 23:11 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: honorary member is ehrenamtlich, same as voluntary | 23:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | an e.V. must have a general meeting with all members, at least once a year, afaik | 23:12 |
| chem|st | and would fit the non-voting description | 23:12 |
| chem|st | DocScrutinizer05: that is why I want to make ordinary members 8 max^^ | 23:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno how ADAC is handling it | 23:12 |
| Win7Mac | i am using the term honorary member for those, who should be honoured... | 23:12 |
| chem|st | hehe wanna use voluntary then? | 23:13 |
| Win7Mac | honorary membership is supposed to be awarded | 23:13 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: that is honoured members not honorary | 23:13 |
| chem|st | ehren-mitglied und ehrenamtliches mitglied | 23:14 |
| Win7Mac | oh, sorry then, just learned smth | 23:14 |
| juiceme | in english, honorary membership is what is given to someone who has merit | 23:14 |
| Win7Mac | right! | 23:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why not use the terms that describe your item best? honorary members that get appointed? are appointed members | 23:14 |
| chem|st | juiceme: honoured | 23:14 |
| juiceme | Who has committed some good deed, done lots of work towards common cause, and so on | 23:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ordinary members that may vote? are voting members | 23:15 |
| chem|st | honorary adj. - unpaid (Brit.) | 23:15 |
| juiceme | chem|st, that's "voluntary" | 23:15 |
| Win7Mac | honoured members: guys like Texrat, Reggie... | 23:15 |
| juiceme | yes | 23:15 |
| chem|st | ok lets call it voluntary not to stress veterinary there... | 23:15 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 leaving | 23:16 | |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: texrat? he has moved to the dark side and does WP8... | 23:16 |
| juiceme | really?? | 23:16 |
| Win7Mac | out of this group, a arbitrating body can be formed | 23:17 |
| juiceme | that's dark indeed. | 23:17 |
| chem|st | juiceme: last pic I have seen was a nokia booth for Lumia phones | 23:17 |
| chem|st | with him behind it... | 23:17 |
| juiceme | I somehow thought he'd left Nokia | 23:17 |
| chem|st | I hae no idea what he was doing, iirc it was a twitpic | 23:18 |
| juiceme | but well, what we do on our work-life is sometimed compromises | 23:18 |
| Win7Mac | they have to accept, ofc... | 23:18 |
| juiceme | Win7Mac, what is the role of arbitrating body? | 23:18 |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo-meeting | 23:19 | |
| Win7Mac | avoid the need of going to court if council and board have a major fight e.g. | 23:19 |
| juiceme | ah ok | 23:19 |
| Win7Mac | or maybe if nokia goes after us, they can deal with nokia and the board | 23:20 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: I have the word now... associated members... no rights but listed | 23:22 |
| juiceme | okay, that sounds good | 23:22 |
| chem|st | council is elected member | 23:23 |
| Win7Mac | well, leo.org says "honorary member" for "Ehrenmitglied" | 23:24 |
| chem|st | if not a permanent member already | 23:24 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: says both, in british enlgish it is voluntary in US it is both | 23:24 |
| Win7Mac | ok | 23:25 |
| chem|st | I refer always to british english as we are in europe | 23:25 |
| chem|st | and oxford is what I learned in my english boarding school | 23:26 |
| chem|st | with every us tv-series my english degenerates 1%... | 23:27 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: is it ok with you to have council and board vote upon new board or do you think that it is a bda idea and we should have the whole body vote? | 23:27 |
| juiceme | that | 23:27 |
| juiceme | 's true | 23:28 |
| Win7Mac | that's the major point... how to define regular members with voting rights | 23:29 |
| chainsawbike | "voting member" | 23:30 |
| juiceme | everybody who has paid up the fee for the year is eligible to vote, I'd say. | 23:30 |
| Win7Mac | to abstract voting rights from community is already a huge step, limiting it to a 5-people-council is another huuuge one | 23:31 |
| juiceme | voting member is good word | 23:31 |
| Win7Mac | I assume, we'll get some dozen regular members and they *should* be the ones voting upon everything in a verein | 23:33 |
| Win7Mac | thats how it usually works | 23:33 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: what are you talking about limiting it back to what it used to be... isn't huge | 23:33 |
| Win7Mac | in the general assembly | 23:33 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: that breaks with the current situation | 23:34 |
| chem|st | current situation is community elects council, council votes on stuff... | 23:34 |
| chem|st | I do not want to open a way into voting stuff on a small group not being voted on by community or elected members | 23:35 |
| * juiceme needs to go... | 23:36 | |
| chem|st | that is not how business worked and that is what we promised - nothing changes | 23:36 |
| chem|st | for the community voting on board which has no direct contact in regards of business with the community was an additional need we made up | 23:37 |
| Win7Mac | We should be able to take a complete new start, no matter the actual rules. We just have to make sure that gets accepted by council and/or community, no? | 23:38 |
| Win7Mac | what you are suggesting also is a completely differnt thing than today | 23:39 |
| chem|st | sure but the general mockup of community<->council relation shoudl not change | 23:39 |
| chem|st | completely? nope, having votes delegated is not so intrusive as having randoms vote instead | 23:40 |
| Win7Mac | hhhm | 23:41 |
| chem|st | and we would need to open up for all members... you can do teh accounting if you want to but I do not want to handle +100accounts | 23:41 |
| chem|st | that would mean to set criteria for voting members request to the said xxxkarma + time of active acount | 23:42 |
| chem|st | and having annual meetings with all those | 23:42 |
| Win7Mac | absolutely right :) | 23:42 |
| chem|st | the fact that I held such meetings in my past does not mean that I liked it | 23:43 |
| Win7Mac | ;) | 23:43 |
| chem|st | so can we please not have voting members by request and have the board via a delegated vote from the council | 23:44 |
| Win7Mac | ok | 23:44 |
| chem|st | (I wonder if you let me go awol and take over if I do^^) | 23:44 |
| chem|st | I think about the workload and that noone actually wants to do it but someone has to... in the first term this would be me for at least the first bit of accounting... so keep it simple and small as possible please, for our won sake | 23:46 |
| chem|st | own | 23:46 |
| chem|st | so I wanted to go 45min ago - any objections go into queue pls - thanks for your time | 23:47 |
| Win7Mac | no problem. Again, I was basically pointing to options... | 23:47 |
| chem|st | and I ask to reconsider the massEffect | 23:47 |
| chem|st | have a nice evening! | 23:47 |
| Win7Mac | council should agree in any case... | 23:47 |
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