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| *** DocScrutinizer05 changes topic to "Council meetings every Friday @ 18:00 UTC | livelog at http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclog/" | 20:04 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | howdy | 21:00 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | I might be partially available for discussions and decisions if there's a meeting going on today | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for the next... hmmm, let's say 60min | 21:01 |
| Win7Mac | hi doc | 21:01 |
| Win7Mac | just read your post after i finished... | 21:02 |
| Win7Mac | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91155 | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, please don't push me to transform my thoughts in there into a vereinstatut | 21:07 |
| Win7Mac | ok | 21:08 |
| qwazix | hello | 21:08 |
| Win7Mac | put the link for general interest here | 21:08 |
| Win7Mac | my agenda for today | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi qwazix | 21:09 |
| Win7Mac | ... my suggestion | 21:09 |
| kerio | DocScrutinizer05: what's a vereinstatut? | 21:09 |
| Win7Mac | hi qwazix | 21:09 |
| kerio | why do you germans always feel the need to have more words than anyone else? | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | basically same as bylaws | 21:09 |
| qwazix | hi DocScrutinizer05, welcome back | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: partially | 21:10 |
| qwazix | o/ Win7Mac | 21:10 |
| Win7Mac | its shorter than bylaws | 21:10 |
| Win7Mac | and it doesn't use "SHALL blabla..." | 21:10 |
| Win7Mac | it is or its not | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we need to discuss how a e.V. statute could include council and HiFo BoD as relevant decision-making entities | 21:11 |
| Win7Mac | right | 21:11 |
| Win7Mac | i suggest council == general meeting | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | simple but silly and inconvenient approach: the e.V. is set up to execute the plans as set up by HiFo | 21:12 |
| Win7Mac | see my last post from above link/e.V.-thread | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or "the e.V manages the account on behalf of HiFo" | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, your suggestions are more to the point. I anticipate we will need lengthy discussions until we find an appropriate agreement | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe we can come up with any analogy, where a e.V. is a branch of an abroad or international entity | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then ruthlessly steal their statute and adapt it to meet our needs | 21:15 |
| Win7Mac | well, nobody here besides us to discuss since chemist + merlin are sabotaging meetings since months already... :( | 21:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | pretty bad | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and an insult to both community as well as the few "idiots" who bother to join the meeting | 21:16 |
| Win7Mac | i was assuming we'd simply drop the US foundation and start all over | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly not my domain and topic (anymore) | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can contribute a few comments when i feel like I have something useful to say. I can't cope with coordinating or really being involved into this organizational stuff any further | 21:18 |
| Win7Mac | another idea is OFC to keep the US foundation + have an e.V. - I suggested that in a mail to board+council | 21:19 |
| Win7Mac | ok, doc | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that been the original idea | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though it holds no benefit for that | 21:19 |
| Win7Mac | ok, then probably an Förderverein? | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it just been "meh! we as well could have done an e.V and probably we would've been better off" | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds good to me | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bbiam | 21:21 |
| Win7Mac | so, bots... get out your matrix and share your thoughts about the e.V. idea ;) | 21:22 |
| qwazix | do they accept articles of incorportion (or what are they called) in english? | 21:24 |
| qwazix | incorporation even | 21:24 |
| Win7Mac | articles of incorporation | 21:25 |
| Win7Mac | https://etherpad.mozilla.org/AMabik4zeD | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: nope, for the regulatroy agency they have to be German | 21:28 |
| qwazix | mhm | 21:28 |
| Win7Mac | I stopped working on that since it's unclear 1) if we really want to cope with the restrictions, 2) how we deal member (voting) rights | 21:28 |
| Win7Mac | in other words how to define "general meeting" | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://ev.kde.org/corporate/statutes.php is a nice example | 21:29 |
| Win7Mac | right, they did it that way | 21:31 |
| Win7Mac | like ajalkane mentioned in the e.V.-thread, directors must be EU residents is a limitation | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Win7Mac: I suggest to keep number of e.V. members small, actually *very* small, and just link the e.V. to the existing maemo.org community entities in the statutes | 21:31 |
| Win7Mac | but from design, they are meant to be longterm | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to unentangle voting on council / HiFo(?) and any voting in e.V. | 21:32 |
| Win7Mac | so keep US HiFo? | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | US HiFo might "outsource" the real work to e.V. | 21:33 |
| Win7Mac | A Förderverein works the other way round | 21:35 |
| * merlin1991 reports in | 21:35 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh hi! | 21:35 |
| Win7Mac | the real verein does the work and a förderverein supports it | 21:35 |
| Win7Mac | OMG merlin1991!!! | 21:36 |
| Win7Mac | where you been? we missed you ;) | 21:36 |
| merlin1991 | most of the time I was online 90% of friday but just not for the meeting :/ | 21:37 |
| merlin1991 | like today I just finished a work meeting | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then should we shift the meeting date for future meetings to sth that better meets your schedule? | 21:39 |
| merlin1991 | though my input on german e.V is limited because I have no idea of the law landscape, I'd know a lot about the austrian verreinsgesetz | 21:39 |
| merlin1991 | for me it would be better if we could do meetings earlier | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | alas no particular restrictions from my side about the meeting time | 21:40 |
| Win7Mac | merlin1991, austrian and german vereine are 'quite' similar. If you know a lot about the austrian verreinsgesetz, then please look at my draft: https://etherpad.mozilla.org/AMabik4zeD | 21:46 |
| Win7Mac | but its more a general Q how to handle things | 21:47 |
| Win7Mac | like who is general meeting, how many? | 21:47 |
| Win7Mac | limit that? | 21:48 |
| Win7Mac | how many directors? | 21:48 |
| Win7Mac | keep US found? | 21:48 |
| Win7Mac | changes of statues should be avoided, because they need notary approval | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any strictly council topics that are pending? | 21:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise I'm out | 21:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just send a mail if meeting schedule changes | 21:55 |
| Win7Mac | oh, and I talked to the "Deutsche Bank" and they have no interest in doing business for such a verein, since 1) people from other citys would have to be legitimated which he does not want to handle since 2) I don't have an account there and 3) we're not even charitable... | 21:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CBA to coordinate a new date for others, while I myself have no particular preferences | 21:55 |
| Win7Mac | Doc, you a client of basterds? | 21:56 |
| Win7Mac | *these | 21:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, i prefer to answer "no" | 21:57 |
| Win7Mac | ;) nevertheless, they seem best choice for int. treasurers at first glance | 21:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I think our best option for sharing access to account is sharing the account credentials | 21:58 |
| Win7Mac | which indded seems problematic after i phoned my local branch director | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | banks don't like to take responsibility for verifying access permissions under entroubled circumstances | 21:59 |
| Win7Mac | Postbank refused intl. access | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | huh? | 22:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can access my account from whatever internet attached puter I may find, as long as it has a browser | 22:00 |
| Win7Mac | they even refused postident!!! | 22:00 |
| Win7Mac | intl. postident, there is no such | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *shrug* | 22:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm out | 22:01 |
| Win7Mac | honstly? sharing the account credentials? - there's (a) treasurer(s) for that for a reason and I'm not even keen on doing the tax papers... | 22:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we could establish a minimum of accountability by storing the TANs on a maemo server, one TAN per file, and control and trace access to them | 22:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | those who handle that TAN infra must not have access to the OIN | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PIN even | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | those who have access to PIN must not have uncontrolled access to the TANs | 22:06 |
| Win7Mac | upload TANs? | 22:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | encrypted with the pubkeys of the treasurers | 22:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and of course not to megaupload | 22:09 |
| Win7Mac | treasurers could simply send them upon demand | 22:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but to a dir on maemo.org where only a selected number of user accounts has access to | 22:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how's that establishing redundancy? | 22:10 |
| Win7Mac | whaterever security-level introduced, it seems a bit awkward to me | 22:10 |
| Win7Mac | but hey... | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just saying... | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cheers | 22:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | (random aside: 1st Niagara closed oit the account, and mailed Rob a check made out to the Hildon Foundation for the balance of the account) | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o/ | 22:11 |
| Win7Mac | Hi GeneralAntilles | 22:12 |
| Win7Mac | So who actually can draw it? | 22:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Howdy | 22:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | No clue | 22:13 |
| Win7Mac | Rob is not on the account anymore, right? | 22:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Right | 22:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Account is closed. | 22:13 |
| Win7Mac | WTF!!! | 22:14 |
| Win7Mac | lets see what happens when Woody opens new account at another bank | 22:14 |
| Win7Mac | anyway, Woody needs to get that check | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as already stated several times, anybody holding a check in his hands can usually draw it | 22:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aka hand it in to his own account | 22:16 |
| Win7Mac | read "made out to the Hildon Foundation" | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only if you want that check in money, then you need to go to a branch of the bank holding the drawn account, and you usually must identify | 22:17 |
| Win7Mac | that is receiver i think | 22:17 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 is definitely out | 22:18 | |
| Win7Mac | :puzzled: | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when did you last time hold a check in your hands? did you read what been printed on it? | 22:19 |
| Win7Mac | ouph... must be some years... | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | last time *I* did must be like 25 years ago, and even back then there been no way to assign a check to a particular receiver | 22:20 |
| Win7Mac | bar or zur verrechnung? | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | doesn't matter | 22:21 |
| Win7Mac | but... you're right, no place for a receiver | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any receiver is "JFYI" | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anybody can hand in any arbitrary check to his account | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except traveler's checks | 22:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | traveler's checks are personalized | 22:23 |
| Win7Mac | If I remember right, they ask for your ID and note some data | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only the one who bought them can hand them in | 22:24 |
| Win7Mac | if you wanna draw cash | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 22:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | handing in checks is a low risk transaction to banks | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since you can't take the money and run away | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thus everybody can do it | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's up to the drawn account's owner to complain about rogue withdrawals or stolen checks or whatever | 22:26 |
| Win7Mac | so we're safe if Rob hands the check over to Woody, and Woody hopefully manages to establish some access to the paypal | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's up to the bank of the account that withdraws or takes the check, to make sure they don't support any rogue transaction | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 22:27 |
| Win7Mac | not sure if there's left any money on paypal | 22:27 |
| Win7Mac | s/left/still | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (not support) thus, you usually can't access money that you withdrawn from another account, for ~6 weeks | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since that's the period during which the withdrawn account can complain | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for checks the period is some days, since the only question is if the check is good | 22:29 |
| Win7Mac | ahrg, right, even that | 22:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so please make sure you get that check from Rob, since right now *he* _owns_ all the money | 22:29 |
| Win7Mac | well, what can *I* do? | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dunno | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | who's talking to Rob? | 22:30 |
| Win7Mac | Rob seems to only trust/want to cooperate with Woody | 22:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then make that check move from Rob to woody *ASAP* | 22:31 |
| Win7Mac | He made an exeption by sending | 22:31 |
| Win7Mac | Jaffa! | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and hand it in to any account the day you receive it | 22:31 |
| Win7Mac | the docs... ;) | 22:31 |
| * qwazix weeps | 22:32 | |
| * DocScrutinizer05 stopped weeping about Rob and/or HiFo quite some months ago | 22:34 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cya, guys | 22:35 |
| Win7Mac | Doc, you got mail ;) | 22:35 |
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| Win7Mac | ahem... | 22:36 |
| Jaffa | Win7Mac: Yup? | 22:49 |
| Jaffa | OK, I'll email Rob and get the check, then we've got all the docs in one place | 22:49 |
| Win7Mac | err, wait, Rob wants Woody, I think | 23:00 |
| Win7Mac | Woody should be available again | 23:01 |
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| Win7Mac | Heyho... | 23:22 |
| Woody14619 | Hi.. Sorry I missed meeting, reading backlog now. | 23:22 |
| Win7Mac | meeting still happening... ;) | 23:22 |
| Win7Mac | Woody14619, an e.V. (whatever country registered) is a whole new attempt, not much of bylaws would be left over | 23:26 |
| Win7Mac | ...except we explicitly introduce these restriczions | 23:26 |
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| Woody14619 | Comments on the EV: I'm not attached to the bylaws. If we need to re-craft, all the better really, IMHO. For legal reasons we need to keep the US corp through the end of the year. (PA requires 12 month min or there are major penalties.) | 23:28 |
| Win7Mac | too bad the EN-wiki does not provide any info for "eingetragener verein" | 23:28 |
| Woody14619 | Comments on the check: If the account is closed, it's a formal bank check. For any bank check, or check over $5,000 in the US, the name must match on the account to deposit it. It would be difficult (though not impossible) for Rob to deposit it. It could be possible into his legal firm account, as they have more leway, but also have higher penalties if done in fraud. | 23:30 |
| Win7Mac | a oneliner please ;) - are you happy if he sends the check? | 23:31 |
| Woody14619 | And normal checks in the US can be reversed up to 90 days after the check is drawn if deposited to an account. | 23:32 |
| Woody14619 | Yes, and am replying to the mail now to instruct him of such. | 23:32 |
| Win7Mac | so Rob could re-draw it in 90 days? | 23:32 |
| Win7Mac | or, rather cancel the initial drawing? | 23:33 |
| Win7Mac | ... just considering worst case... | 23:33 |
| Woody14619 | Technically... As he was requested to be removed from the account, he should not be able to. But as they bank is effectivly saying they're not following the corporate resolution, and are instead opting to close the account... Hard to tell. | 23:34 |
| Woody14619 | Reguardless, I'll look at banks this weekend and figure something out if I can with an international solution. Sooner we start that clock, the better. | 23:35 |
| Woody14619 | FYI: Monday is an official US holiday, so banks/post will be closed anyway. Soonest anything could happen would likely be Tuesday. | 23:36 |
| Win7Mac | I'm not sure if it's any good, but Bank of America might be worth a look, they close collaborate with the "Deutsche Bank" which *might or might not* come in handy some time | 23:37 |
| Win7Mac | depends on who asks how at the Deutsche Bank | 23:38 |
| Win7Mac | if you got an account already there and if local branch officer is willing to go through the hassle of adding peeps in different citys or even countries to the access-list :( | 23:39 |
| Woody14619 | I've had a history with them... Posative from their side, but not so much on mine. I'll investiage. There has to be some bank that has branches in the US and Germany (and pref a few other countries). | 23:39 |
| Woody14619 | Sounds no better than First Niagra in that account. | 23:40 |
| Woody14619 | I'd prefer a bank with solid regulations on this matter. Not "we follow the whim of a local branch manager". | 23:40 |
| Woody14619 | That's what got us here in the first place. | 23:40 |
| Win7Mac | right | 23:40 |
| Woody14619 | It may be a little more of a pain to deal with HSBC, or Chase, or ING... but if they offer a solid international setup... | 23:41 |
| Win7Mac | Citybank? | 23:42 |
| Woody14619 | Maybe? | 23:43 |
| Woody14619 | Ouch. Nix HSBC... Heavy fees for accounts under $10K. | 23:45 |
| Win7Mac | wait, ING? like ING-DiBa? | 23:47 |
| Win7Mac | http://www.ingcb.com/network-offices/worldmap looks good | 23:51 |
| Woody14619 | As does Chase.. but can't find details on account creation on either. https://www.chase.com/commercial-bank/international-bank/international-banking-locations | 23:53 |
| Win7Mac | and don't be fooled, these offers are meant for big companies to shift their million $$s, business with us is a PITA for them, they earn close to nothing and have to deal with obscure people from all over the place... | 23:58 |
| Win7Mac | no branch chief would want that, still he's always the on to be convinced | 23:59 |
| Woody14619 | Looks like ING shifted their banking to CapitalOne. Good news: I have a CapitalOne account in very good standing... | 23:59 |
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