| *** kolp has quit IRC | 00:40 | |
| *** Win7Mac has joined #maemo-meeting | 00:41 | |
| Win7Mac | Hi | 00:59 |
|---|---|---|
| Win7Mac | who's present? | 01:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Here | 01:00 |
| Win7Mac | woody said he might come a bit later | 01:00 |
| Win7Mac | jaffa said he trys to come by occasionally | 01:00 |
| Win7Mac | probably | 01:01 |
| *** Woody14619a has joined #maemo-meeting | 01:01 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Hey, Woody. | 01:01 |
| Win7Mac | o/ | 01:01 |
| Woody14619a | hey. :) | 01:02 |
| Win7Mac | chem|st: ping | 01:02 |
| Woody14619a | on my n900, so a little slow typing | 01:03 |
| Win7Mac | np | 01:03 |
| Win7Mac | any news about meeting on tue? | 01:04 |
| Woody14619a | not sure what you mean. had planned one for that based on previous schedules so Rob could attend. | 01:06 |
| Win7Mac | will it happen? when, where, will it be mandatory for new members to be present etc. | 01:07 |
| Woody14619a | i think it should, but attendance is not manditory... this is something to be decided this meeting I suppose. | 01:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | I can manage some attention on a text-meeting, but audio isn't doable for me as I'll be at work. | 01:09 |
| Win7Mac | same for me I guess | 01:09 |
| Woody14619a | issue is that we mush have an audio meeting at some point, even if it's to just confirm the discussion made elsewhere. | 01:11 |
| Win7Mac | but that can be later, right? | 01:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Did you setup a Doodle whatever for meeting scheduling? | 01:12 |
| Win7Mac | GA, I asked about it in board channel, nobody answered | 01:13 |
| Woody14619a | no, not yet. literally just got back from a funeral. You know, you all can feel free to do some of this yourselves. just saying. | 01:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh | 01:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | I thought I did | 01:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Must've been disconnected when I tried to answer. | 01:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Woody14619, was directed at Win7Mac, not you. ;) | 01:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sorry for your loss. | 01:14 |
| Win7Mac | yeah, sorry | 01:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'll do that now. | 01:15 |
| Win7Mac | I'm also sorry for not just doing it right away | 01:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | No worries | 01:15 |
| Win7Mac | I'm a rookie ya know | 01:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | In general, it's good to follow the "Better to ask forgiveness than permission" policy with most of this stuff. | 01:16 |
| Win7Mac | I'm not a native english, so please don't let me read between lines tto much ;) | 01:17 |
| Win7Mac | +speaker | 01:18 |
| *** n900-dk_ has quit IRC | 01:18 | |
| Woody14619a | well, especially when it comes to simpler stuff, like setting up an account or what not. I'm also on google+ & know they have a calendarish app? sounds like this time frame is about the only thing that fits most people anyway. | 01:18 |
| *** n900-dk has joined #maemo-meeting | 01:19 | |
| *** xes has joined #maemo-meeting | 01:19 | |
| Win7Mac | oh, I'd rather prefer concert-oh over any google service | 01:21 |
| Woody14619a | so do we have chem|st or jaffa here yet? | 01:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa's got a housewarming party | 01:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | So he's probably not going to make it. | 01:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | No word from chem|st. | 01:22 |
| Woody14619a | ahh... right... | 01:22 |
| Win7Mac | I'm sure they come by later | 01:22 |
| Woody14619a | sight. so really, not much we can do to move forward at this point. | 01:23 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has quit IRC | 01:23 | |
| Win7Mac | so I basically wanted to prepare things for handover to be painless as possible | 01:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Have we compiled an agenda for the handover? | 01:24 |
| chem|st | uh sry... | 01:24 |
| chem|st | am late | 01:24 |
| Woody14619a | for google i was more talking about calendar. we tried using google+ for conferencing & it was a nightmare. | 01:24 |
| Win7Mac | and have an official statement about when and where the meeting on tue will happen or not | 01:24 |
| Woody14619a | again, the tuesday meeting was more of a "hey, can people do this" not a "you're all required to show up". | 01:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Are we working with any hard deadlines for having a handover meeting? | 01:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | What official voting needs to occur for the handover? | 01:26 |
| Win7Mac | ok, thanks woody | 01:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/voting/business that needs a conference call/ | 01:26 |
| Woody14619a | from past exercises in this, if I didn't suggest a date/time nothing would move... | 01:26 |
| Win7Mac | and it will be on concert-oh? | 01:26 |
| Win7Mac | ^ tues meeting? | 01:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Win7Mac, presumably. | 01:27 |
| Woody14619a | I would prefer (and think it mahy be required) to have the existing board members acknowlege and welcome new board members. | 01:28 |
| chem|st | well tue 14UTC is in the mid of my working hours and audio might get challenging | 01:28 |
| Win7Mac | chem|st, woody just clarified that our attendance is not required | 01:29 |
| Woody14619a | which is why it's been suggested to find a time we can all attend. | 01:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just sent out the Doodle poll | 01:30 |
| Woody14619a | this is getting mildy frustrating... i *suggested* a time for a meeting... | 01:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not great for trying to find overlap. | 01:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | More useful for picking among several already agreeable meeting times. | 01:30 |
| Woody14619a | thanks GA. | 01:31 |
| chem|st | for the ''old'' board (two guys) it should be doable to find 1 hour somewhere in a week's timeframe?! for the future we just doodle it | 01:32 |
| *** Mr_Stupid has joined #maemo-meeting | 01:32 | |
| Win7Mac | +1 | 01:32 |
| *** Mr_Stupid has quit IRC | 01:32 | |
| Win7Mac | GA, I only have timeframes from 01:00 - 06:00 in my timezone | 01:33 |
| Win7Mac | as available to choose from | 01:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | Odd | 01:34 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: please speak UTC.... that is 1100UTC through out 1600UTC? | 01:34 |
| Win7Mac | for july 1st that is | 01:34 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has joined #maemo-meeting | 01:34 | |
| Win7Mac | oh, forget it | 01:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh, yeah, I don't have time before work on normal workdays. | 01:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Forgot to include lunches | 01:35 |
| Win7Mac | yeah, got it now | 01:35 |
| Win7Mac | ;9 | 01:35 |
| Woody14619a | sigh... an again my stupid n900 is giving me a "redirect loop" error. | 01:35 |
| chem|st | o.O | 01:35 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has quit IRC | 01:36 | |
| chem|st | is that it? | 01:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | Added some times in there. | 01:36 |
| Win7Mac | GA, timeline ends 07-07, can you extend it? | 01:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | No idea. | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | No | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | I can | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | But that's as far as the data I put in went. | 01:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Schedule is different next week. | 01:39 |
| Win7Mac | ok, I can only promise to attend tomorrow, which is too early I think | 01:41 |
| Win7Mac | rest of the week I can't promise anything as I'm on business trip and probably available via N9 only | 01:42 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has joined #maemo-meeting | 01:42 | |
| Win7Mac | GA, inkl. sat + sun? | 01:43 |
| Woody14619a | so all the doodle times are EDT? or does it convert based on where you are? | 01:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Woody14619, yeah. | 01:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Win7Mac, Sat and Sunday almost always remain the same. | 01:43 |
| Win7Mac | ah, ok | 01:44 |
| Win7Mac | Woody14619, it should state your timezone above the timeline | 01:46 |
| Woody14619a | k. entered. :P had to nuke /user/home/.mozilla to get the page to load. mush have a munged setting from restore. :P | 01:47 |
| Woody14619a | wish it had an option for "prefered" and "available"... :) but otherwise, yay. | 01:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK, for handover meeting we need to address: banking information, emails archives (?), relevant NDAs, Nokia contract negotiations, official handoff, ... ? | 01:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Woody14619, yeah, it's rather sub-par. | 01:48 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has quit IRC | 01:49 | |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd like something where we can all enter our availability times (with primary and alternate preferences) and it'd generate a list of potential meeting times that are at least x minutes/hours long. | 01:49 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has joined #maemo-meeting | 01:49 | |
| Win7Mac | great idea, I can't even edit my "vote" on doodle :( | 01:50 |
| * Woody14619a would suggest outlook.com, if I knew it had that, but I don't... | 01:50 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Might see if I can write a little web app. | 01:50 |
| Win7Mac | Oh no, wait, I *can* edit it | 01:51 |
| Win7Mac | so doodle might pan out | 01:51 |
| chem|st | Win7Mac: you need to be logged in... | 01:53 |
| Win7Mac | GA, just extend the timeline by following week from 0-24h and we will see | 01:53 |
| Woody14619a | that look s like a reasonable topic list. some of that is a matter of technical issue (is there a mail archive? Tim S. may know that.) | 01:53 |
| chem|st | or the session needs to be still yours | 01:53 |
| Win7Mac | chem|st, not needed for editing | 01:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Woody14619a, I'm not sure on the legal requirements for a lot of this. | 01:53 |
| Win7Mac | session needs to be still yours... | 01:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | I need to pick up a book on 501(c)(3)'s. | 01:54 |
| Woody14619a | why? | 01:54 |
| chem|st | ok that's it for me.. gtg to bed | 01:55 |
| Woody14619a | to my knowlege we are not a 501c3... | 01:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh? | 01:55 |
| chem|st | read you later | 01:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | I was under the impression that that was what SD69 had been hard-charging towards. | 01:55 |
| Woody14619a | the articles of incorporation documents I signed were for simple incorporation. there was a good 5 months I was not on the board | 01:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK | 01:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thus the issue with PayPal. | 01:57 |
| Woody14619a | so it may have happened then. I actually did ask this at one point though, in email, but never got a reply. | 01:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thanks again, by the way, for being so dedicate to this madhouse, Woody14619a. :) | 01:58 |
| Woody14619a | this is part of my frustration with things. | 01:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, hopefully the clouds (and the weight) should be lifting shortly. ;) | 01:58 |
| Woody14619a | I was "out of the loop" for 5 months, but the assumption is I have all redords and knowledge, when in fact, that's the duty of the secretary of the foundation. | 01:59 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has quit IRC | 01:59 | |
| Woody14619a | and when asked, the secretary was not replying, or as is now, downright refusing to give that information because "it's all in the email archive", which I do not know for sure even exists or how to access. | 02:01 |
| Win7Mac | Woody14619a, nobody's blaming you | 02:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | I doubt Tim is archiving anything | 02:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just a forwarding alias. | 02:02 |
| Woody14619a | I know. :) just venting a bit. | 02:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | But, we'll chase him down on that. | 02:02 |
| Win7Mac | I'm just abot trying to get a picture of the situation | 02:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Actually, I'll take that on as an action. | 02:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hey, while we're on the subject of responsibilities. | 02:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | I hereby nominate Jaffa for Chair, Secretary, Treasurer, and Comm Officer. | 02:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | (Also: Ship's counselor) | 02:03 |
| Win7Mac | ;-) | 02:03 |
| Woody14619a | shit battery is dying | 02:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Alright | 02:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think we probably touched-base enough for now | 02:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | We can chase down any loose ends before the handover meeting via email if need be. | 02:04 |
| Woody14619a | anyway... i need to eat & get back for the 8 to 10 calling hours. | 02:04 |
| Win7Mac | woody, please give info in #maemo-board or here what went on in tues meeting | 02:04 |
| Woody14619a | will b an email at min win7mac | 02:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thanks, Woody14619a. Have a peaceful evening. | 02:05 |
| Win7Mac | for voice meeting available from 08 july on only | 02:05 |
| Win7Mac | Thanks woody | 02:05 |
| Woody14619a | follow up ib email please. also, can someone hit Tim S. about adding new members to board alias? | 02:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Woody14619, board@maemo.org has the full list for now. | 02:07 |
| Win7Mac | adding new members to board alias already happened | 02:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I'll add that to the email I'm drafting to him. | 02:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Win7Mac, board@hildonfoundation.org | 02:07 |
| Win7Mac | ah, ok | 02:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Win7Mac, should I sent Tim the info@ address for the board@hifo alias? | 02:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/sent/send/ | 02:08 |
| Win7Mac | no, HiFo-Board@~ please | 02:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK | 02:09 |
| Win7Mac | thanks! | 02:09 |
| Woody14619a | thanks all. catch you in email. | 02:09 |
| *** Woody14619a has quit IRC | 02:10 | |
| Win7Mac | thanks again woody, wish you a peacefull evening too. o/ | 02:10 |
| Win7Mac | hm | 02:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think we can close then. | 02:10 |
| Win7Mac | yeah | 02:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody should probably write up minutes for this. | 02:11 |
| Win7Mac | honestly, we are not even in charge yet | 02:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 02:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, extra transparency certainly can't help. | 02:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Whether or not it's from an official body yet. | 02:12 |
| Win7Mac | but I won't stop you ;-) | 02:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, yeah. ;) | 02:12 |
| Win7Mac | sorry, its 1 am here and have a job tomorrow... | 02:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Tah! | 02:13 |
| Win7Mac | at 9am | 02:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thanks for getting the meeting organized. | 02:13 |
| Win7Mac | I really did my best, I mean I tried. I'm a bad moderator though | 02:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nah, went fine. | 02:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | 4/5 on short notice | 02:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | Had no specific agenda going in | 02:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | so it's always going to be a little slow to get going then. | 02:15 |
| Win7Mac | could you extend the timeline? | 02:15 |
| Win7Mac | make it available 0-24h whole week | 02:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | The votes are for times I'm available | 02:16 |
| Win7Mac | if everbody fills in, it very well might pan out | 02:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | I guess I can just make it 0-24h then send a poll to another email | 02:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | that way I can vote in it, too. | 02:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'll look at it later tonight or tomorrow. | 02:17 |
| Win7Mac | yeah, make a new poll for that week | 02:17 |
| Win7Mac | peeps can fill in as soon as they know... | 02:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK | 02:18 |
| * GeneralAntilles off to MWKN editing and dinner. | 02:18 | |
| Win7Mac | becoz I can't make an audio meeting this week. | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | We may not need an audio meeting for a while, truthfully. | 02:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | Planning on limiting the audio meetings to situations where we need to cast votes | 02:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | and then only for about 15-20 minutes to do that | 02:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Have the discussions and other stuff on IRC. | 02:20 |
| Win7Mac | agreed | 02:20 |
| Win7Mac | also for audio-only there's probably simpler solutions than concert-oh | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | It has a lot of overhead | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | but I know they tried a number of options that didn't work | 02:21 |
| Win7Mac | indeed | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | Actually | 02:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | I host a Teamspeak server that we could use. | 02:22 |
| Win7Mac | great! | 02:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Gotta get the application, but it's certainly reliable. | 02:22 |
| Win7Mac | np, good | 02:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Anyway, we'll figure it out. Sleep, sleep. ;) | 02:23 |
| Win7Mac | ;) gn | 02:24 |
| *** thedead1440_ has quit IRC | 02:25 | |
| *** thedead1440__ has joined #maemo-meeting | 02:25 | |
| *** xes has quit IRC | 02:27 | |
| Win7Mac | sh*t, are we talking about an audio meeting or an IRC meeting in that doodle thingy? | 02:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hoe about annotatintg whether the particular availability is for audio or text meeting? | 02:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Win7Mac, audio. | 02:31 |
| Win7Mac | good then... | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nice meeting ;-) | 02:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's a tiny spreadsheet on maemo.cloud-7.de/alternative-election2_with-import-borked.ods | 02:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since STV sucks | 02:34 |
| Win7Mac | brilliant idea, but may I suggest to put that topic on agenda for after handover? | 02:35 |
| Win7Mac | we have a top-prio topic already... | 02:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | more a topic for council, but I'd appreciate feedback from you guys as well, particularly the "maemo foundation crew" who discussed that STV and alternatives a few years ago | 02:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Jaffa: GeneralAntilles ^^^ | 02:36 |
| Win7Mac | damn. "maemo foundation crew" is much more soundy than what we actually have ;) | 02:37 |
| Win7Mac | but i know rights and stuff... :( | 02:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | alternative-election2_with-import-borked.ods <- if you nodded off the "update linked data" on opening that document: it breaks stuff, but a simple undu restores data to sane state | 02:41 |
| Win7Mac | Max votes/ballot war 6, nicht 5. | 02:43 |
| Win7Mac | bin nicht siccher, hab nur 5 stimmen abgegeben | 02:44 |
| Win7Mac | aber IMHO war es möglich | 02:44 |
| Win7Mac | uups, sorry for german... | 02:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this doesn't matter | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | obviously there are ballots with 6 votes | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but only 5 are relevant | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or were relevant if it wasn't for STV | 03:00 |
| Win7Mac | I had 6 votes but only the 1st 5 were counted? | 03:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, none was "counted". Maybe except the first one | 03:01 |
| Win7Mac | hm, ok. | 03:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's SINGLE transferable vote | 03:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your single vote counts for the candidate you placed #1 | 03:01 |
| Win7Mac | I was so brave to edit it to infobot... | 03:02 |
| Win7Mac | ~stv | 03:02 |
| Win7Mac | ~STV | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and only on transfer that vote might get transferred to candidate #2 on your list | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I think STV sucks | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in my alternative, all your votes are actually counted | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the result usually is same, but in some niche cases might be way closer to what you'd expect the result of votes to be | 03:04 |
| Win7Mac | your proposal sounds very good to me | 03:05 |
| Win7Mac | oh BTW, we're actually talking about this: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/alternative-election2_with-import-borked.ods | 03:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and it has two advantages: you actually can grok how it works, and it doesn't need a fancy tool to get the results of your vote | 03:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/vote/election/ | 03:07 |
| Win7Mac | infobot absent? | 03:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 03:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | never been here | 03:08 |
| Win7Mac | ah ya, forgot | 03:08 |
| Win7Mac | well, invite him! ;) | 03:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nah | 03:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | her, btw | 03:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not welcome on this channel | 03:09 |
| Win7Mac | ok | 03:10 |
| Win7Mac | mss infobot OFC... ;) | 03:10 |
| Win7Mac | gn o/ | 03:17 |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo-meeting | 09:06 | |
| *** freemangordon_ has joined #maemo-meeting | 11:23 | |
| *** freemangordon has quit IRC | 11:23 | |
| *** freemangordon_ is now known as freemangordon | 11:25 | |
| *** kolp has joined #maemo-meeting | 12:03 | |
| *** kolp has quit IRC | 12:59 | |
| *** freemangordon_ has joined #maemo-meeting | 13:20 | |
| *** freemangordon has quit IRC | 13:20 | |
| *** Pali has quit IRC | 15:45 | |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo-meeting | 15:48 | |
| *** kolp has joined #maemo-meeting | 16:18 | |
| *** freemangordon_ has quit IRC | 16:43 | |
| *** freemangordon has joined #maemo-meeting | 16:44 | |
| *** Pali has quit IRC | 18:06 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC | 18:12 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo-meeting | 18:18 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo-meeting | 18:18 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC | 18:23 | |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo-meeting | 18:44 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo-meeting | 19:09 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo-meeting | 19:09 | |
| *** sixwheeledbeast has joined #maemo-meeting | 19:15 | |
| *** Marshall_Banana has joined #maemo-meeting | 19:58 | |
| *** kolp has quit IRC | 20:47 | |
| *** Pali has quit IRC | 21:01 | |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo-meeting | 21:03 | |
| *** sixwheeledbeast has quit IRC | 21:10 | |
| *** Pali has quit IRC | 22:05 | |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo-meeting | 22:10 | |
| *** Marshall_Banana has quit IRC | 22:20 | |
| Woody14619 | FWIW: On voting questions: | 22:31 |
| Woody14619 | Column A is the weight of the vote. STV (and many systems) recognize the concept of un-even votes. (eg votes per share). In our case, that's always 1. | 22:32 |
| Woody14619 | On the STV system, most vote systems generally count your vote as the primary vote, and only choose next votes for the case of not having a clear winner set (eg run-off voting, STV, and the like). | 22:33 |
| Woody14619 | STV does this, in the method we use, by eliminating the lowest voter, and using their second choice vote as their new primary. It also provides a fractional vote to those who voted for a winner when there are an excess of votes for said winner. | 22:35 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has joined #maemo-meeting | 22:36 | |
| Woody14619 | This is seen in each "stage" as is far more visible in other elections. It *does* give slight preference to "winning voters" in that their votes are counted first. A good example is the last Council election. http://maemo.org/vote/results.php?election_id=31 | 22:38 |
| Woody14619 | One person took 50% of the votes, despite only needing 20% to win. The second vote of those 50% were then given (fractionally, to bring the main person "down" to 20%") and their second choices were awarded the fractional points. The same occurs in round 3 & 4, so in some cases, peoples' 4-th place vote WERE used in that election. | 22:41 |
| Woody14619 | In round 4, there were only 3 winners of 5 needed, so the lowest person was elimited. The 5 people that voted for kerio then had their vote 100% transfered to their second choice. And the others who listed kerio as their 2,3, or 4 choice, and had "excess voteage" got their next choice down fractionally applied. | 22:46 |
| Woody14619 | Is it confusing? A little. Is it biased? Only slightly in that it resolves "winners" before "losers" (there's a way to tell it to invert that prority, FYI). But ultimately, people's second, third, and at times fourth or fifth place choices CAN and do matter. | 22:48 |
| kerio | the 5 people that voted for me are obviously nuts | 22:52 |
| kerio | me included | 22:52 |
| Woody14619 | In the last election, for example, everyone who voted for me, GeneralAntilles, or Jaffa or chem|st had their second choice vote counted, minimally (that's 107 of the 112 votes that had at *least* their second-choice "count"). | 22:52 |
| kerio | hell, i don't even remember if *i* voted for me | 22:52 |
| Woody14619 | Given the numbers, roughly 60% of them had their third choice counted. In fact, the only one's who *only* had only their first choice counted were the 4 people who voted for Win7Mac, since their vote was used fully to elect their primary chosen candidate. | 22:55 |
| Woody14619 | So, in summary: all but 4 people had at least their second choice "count", and all but 5 had their third choice "count" in HiFo election. In the HFC election, all but 4 had their second choice "count", all but 6 had their third choice "count", and all but about 10 had their fourth choice "count"... Several had their 5th and maybe even 6th choice count (if their first choice was for Joerge, which 50% were). | 23:05 |
| Woody14619 | All that said... If someone thinks there's a better or "more fair" way to vote, I'm happy to entertain it. But please let's not spread fud, like "Nobody's second choice counted", when in fact >95% of people's second votes (and over 90%'s of third votes) did in fact count over the past several elections. | 23:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Probably not a lot of justification for adding TODOs for voting system changes. | 23:20 |
| Woody14619 | So, since there's been a concern about "how does my vote count", I'll cover and example here. | 23:27 |
| Woody14619 | Let's use the last HFC election as an example, since it's more "exciting". | 23:27 |
| *** Pali has quit IRC | 23:29 | |
| Woody14619 | Let's assume that you voted for: Joerg, merlin, chemist, 6wheel, and thedead, in that order. | 23:29 |
| *** freemangordon has quit IRC | 23:32 | |
| Woody14619 | In the first round ( http://maemo.org/vote/results.php?election_id=31 ) your vote goes to joerg. But then Joerg wins by a land-slide. To make things more even, we take the top winners points down to what is needed to win, so 66% of your vote (31/47) is freed up for your second choice. | 23:32 |
| Woody14619 | In the secound round, 66% of your vote goes to merlin. But Merkin now is also above what is needed to win, and in now the "leader" (you picked well!). So on reducing his votes, we find 23% of the votes need to be freed to give to others. In your case, that 15% of a vote, which now goes to your third choice, which is chemist. | 23:35 |
| Woody14619 | Now, that's not much... but a *bunch* of little votes can add up. If chemist was choice #3 for everyone (95 people), that gives him 15 votes at this point, where 16 votes is the "win" threshold. | 23:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((But please let's not spread fud, like "Nobody's second choice counted",)) please stop spreading the word FUD for sth that nobody actually did! | 23:38 |
| Woody14619 | Turns out, a few people voted for chemist as 1st or 2nd choice, but not quite enough to push him over on the 3rd round. In the third round, kerio is eliminated, and the 5 people that voted him as first place have 100% of the vote moved to their second choice. It's only fair, since their candidate is now out, and you've already helped 2 people win... The 2 that voted for him also get their chunk of vote (~60%) moved to | 23:38 |
| Woody14619 | their second choice. | 23:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | vote for body of 2; candidates a,b,c; ballots: a,c a,c a,c b,c b,c b,c | 23:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now run your STV against that, and tell me if that's fair | 23:41 |
| Woody14619 | Must you be a 5 year old and interupt an explination you asked for? | 23:42 |
| Woody14619 | Yes, STV DOES HAVE ISSUES with *very small* voting sets, with *very small* number of candidates and *lots* of seats. | 23:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe I failed to *completely+ understand STV, so I failed to craft the ballots in a way it really shows what I'm concerned about | 23:42 |
| Woody14619 | When your number of votes is less than 10x the number of candidates, it starts to break down. ALL voting systems have this issue. | 23:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm out, I don't like your name calling | 23:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cya | 23:43 |
| Woody14619 | STV, RVV, single choice, ALL have this. | 23:43 |
| Woody14619 | I don't like you interupting in-channel when I'm trying to give you an example you asked for | 23:44 |
| Woody14619 | And siting examples from the STV page for an extreem case, which is *not* what we're facing here. | 23:44 |
| Woody14619 | Anyway... back on the topic... | 23:45 |
| Woody14619 | In round 5, those "fractional votes" do add up, and chemist wins and has an "overage". At this point, we have "Exhausted" votes. These are votes that are either left over from rounding, or lost completely because people didn't make a 2nd, or third choice. | 23:46 |
| Woody14619 | Those votes are now moved, and your vote hops again... but only 10% of it moves, since that's how far over the fractionals pushed chemist to win. So now, you're only giving about 1.5% of a vote to your fourth choice, 6wheel. But hey, you helped vote in 3 people, so really, getting anything at this point is candy. | 23:49 |
| Woody14619 | Sadly, your 4thplace vote is not quite enough, and 6wheel is dropped the next round. Your 1.5% vote goes entierly to thedead, your 5th choice candidate. | 23:50 |
| *** freemangordon has joined #maemo-meeting | 23:52 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a) I asked for an example? b) I never said "Nobody's second choice counted" c) calling me a five-year old is rather offensive, and is in itself an infantile behaviour d) no sir, I didn't copy my example from anywhere, I made it up on my own after hours of study how STV works | 23:53 |
| Woody14619 | Now, lets assume you voted differently. Say you voted for thedead, and 3 others. Well, our vote stays 100% with thedead, through all 7 cycles. Why? Because that candidate was low in the first several rounds of first-place picks. They need every vote they can get to just stay in the race. | 23:53 |
| Woody14619 | How many adults do you know that interupt people mid-discussion that you think are NOT rude? Especially when that discussion is an example THEY ASKED FOR, being given. | 23:54 |
| Woody14619 | You know what... I got enought going on right now. | 23:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and e) you can multply the ballots of my example * 10000 and nothing will change | 23:54 |
| Woody14619 | Wrong. | 23:54 |
| Woody14619 | Like most of the FUD you were spreading on #maemo earlier, before reading the page. | 23:55 |
| Woody14619 | If you have a 2 candidate race and 3 entrants, then yes, it will be a problem. | 23:56 |
| Woody14619 | All the numbers have to be reasonably far apart from each other. | 23:56 |
| *** Marshall_Banana has quit IRC | 23:56 | |
| Woody14619 | Voting for 3 in an election of 3 is also very unfair, since they all win, despite people just voting for 1 or 2... | 23:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which wasn't the case for *any* of our votes in maemo ever | 23:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems you either got too few or too many of those drinks today | 23:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (to start on same level you seem to prefer today) | 23:57 |
| Woody14619 | you know what... go fuck yourself. I'm done. Enjoy your little kingdom.... I've been about -->| |<-- this close to just saying FUCK ALL OF YOU and resigning for the board for about 2 weeks. | 23:58 |
| Woody14619 | I just spent the weekend burrying a friend of 20 years... This is the last thing I need. I'm out. | 23:58 |
| *** Woody14619 has quit IRC | 23:58 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!