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| DocScrutinizer05 | hi! | 21:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Woody14619 | o/ | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please everybody see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council/Council_election_May_2013/Candidate_declarations | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1338394#post1338394 | 21:02 |
| Woody14619 | As noone had done it yet, and I kind of wanted them setup a certain way... I took the liberty of adding all candidates from that page into the existing election(s), and set the times accordingly. | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a gearly welcome to all candidates who found their way to this place most of them will have to visit regularly in future: chem|st, kerio, merlin1991, qwazix (ok we know him already :-D), sixwheeledbeast, thedead1440 (probably afk) | 21:05 |
| qwazix | \o | 21:05 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: thanks | 21:06 |
| merlin1991 | yeah my 100% idle thanks to quassel is awesome ;) | 21:06 |
| sixwheeledbeast | \o | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I was about to do that, but for some starnge reason got distracted with stuff of higher prio | 21:06 |
| Woody14619 | Finding no western name for thedead, I coppied from the web page. (And the db didn't explode.. which was nice to see. :) | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hihihi | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what if I tell you I made that name up | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-) | 21:07 |
| Woody14619 | It can easily be changed. | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since I also wasn't sure about the western name he wants to use | 21:08 |
| Woody14619 | Well, happily we can use real names, even in non-latin character sets, so. We're all good. If he wishes something besides that on the wiki, we can update it when he tells us. | 21:10 |
| qwazix | I only have one item for todays meeting, but it's not so important so if anybody else wants the floor... | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he will update wiki during next two days, he's on holiday with poor internet still | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't have much either, just an idea: we should rethink the voting rules for BoD, maybe we actually want to augment them according to what I once suggested: | 21:14 |
| sixwheeledbeast | I will also update my declaration, I have sketchy draft but it needs finishing over the weekend. | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | have a <nobody-else> virtual candidate | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in addition to all real candidates | 21:15 |
| qwazix | That sounds interesting | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | electorate can elect for <nobody-else> like for a norma candidate | 21:15 |
| Woody14619 | My worry would be <nobody-else> winning. :P | 21:16 |
| qwazix | And what happens if there's a 2 people BoD result? | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whenever <nobody> gets the most votes for a seat, nobody else will get elected into BoD and vote counting stops at this point. If the number of candidates doesn't meet the rules at that point, we act accordingly to rules and maybe remove one to get from 6 to 5, from 4 to 3 | 21:17 |
| qwazix | Still doesn't solve the <2> problem. IMO elections should be repeated in such case | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when we end with a 2 men body, we will act as rules say for a two candidates election: it's moot | 21:18 |
| qwazix | ^ yeah that | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 21:18 |
| qwazix | I like this idea | 21:18 |
| Woody14619 | I don't, but if the new HFC puts it in... Well.. there it is. :) | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | rationale: unlike council for BoD it's way more undesirable when candidates slip in despite majority of electorate doesn't trust them | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and we have that insane 3, 5, 7 rule for BoD | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which otherwise would make it extremely unlikely that somebody who self-nominates doesn't automatically get a seat in BoD | 21:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: would it *work*? | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | Nobody automaticly gets seat on boad... | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | Not that insane... since you need 5/7/9+, leaving 2+ out for most instances. | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | this is not MCC rules, wehre 3/5/7 is auto-selected... | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, how that? | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *former* MCC rules, and 3/5 | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | IF you have 5, election is still for 3. 2 out. | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | Well.. that still depends on referendum outcome. :) | 21:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but you don't *need* 5 to get a body of 3 | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | I'm hopeful it's former, but.. :) | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | No, you could do 4. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | But even then, you still have at least 1 out. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | With current HiFo Board rules, there is always at least one loser. | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so leaving 1+ out, not 2+ | 21:24 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, is right you can't get auto-elected | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | Sometimes 2. | 21:24 |
| qwazix | While I still think I like Doc's idea, having >1 undesireable people is a small possibility | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, but look, a group of 5 self nominating most likely could take over whole BoD, even if 100% of electorate don't like it | 21:25 |
| Woody14619 | There is also a built-in mechanism for this in STV. If someone gets below a certain threshold, they don't win, even if they take a place in the election. | 21:26 |
| qwazix | I think we should think that over, and when the time is right the HFC will decide to put that in or not | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just wanted to kick off a discussion about it | 21:27 |
| qwazix | :nod: | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in ~2 weeks we hopefuly need a notion about that | 21:27 |
| Woody14619 | And the current voting booth allows a person to choose only one person... or choose noone, but still vote. Which one would think is "ineffectual", but in reality it raises that bar a notch. | 21:28 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, is that threshold configurable? | 21:28 |
| Woody14619 | If 50% vote, but select no one, nobody wins... | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wasn't aware of any such threshold | 21:28 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix it's built into the way it works, based in part on the number of votes and weights of the votes. In our case, thats number of votes, period, as each person's "weight" is one. | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I also found a few rules in bylaws that I wasn't sure how to read them. We might need to discuss that as well eventually | 21:30 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05 That's because we've never hit it. :) | 21:30 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, :nod: | 21:30 |
| qwazix | btw, I don't know if we can slip this into the election rules but elections should be immediately triggered after mass resignations (i.e. >half the board) | 21:30 |
| Woody14619 | It's not something you can put in to the membership criteria, but the bylaws are ammendable. Not super easy to do, but doable. | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are several points in both bylaws and election rules that neeed review and refinement | 21:32 |
| Woody14619 | Yup. Always are. Just takes someone with the time/drive to do so. | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and yeah, WTF *is* "Hildon membership"?? | 21:32 |
| Woody14619 | Defined by HFC in the membership and election criteria document... TBD. | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, but what is it meant to be | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the BoD body? the community, something completely different? | 21:34 |
| Woody14619 | My perference would be all persons with (t)m.o accounts and/or other community credetial... but... that's part of what HFC is tasked with doing. | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, you can't task somebody to define what's €„„æłŧ„ŧ½ł€ | 21:35 |
| Woody14619 | Electorate is formed from members with (*spec*), where right now that's >10 karma and >3 month account existance. | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you need to tell them what it should become in the end | 21:35 |
| Woody14619 | We did have to task them with that. Because the alternative was hard-coding Karma/(t)mo roster into bylaws, when we didn't even know if they'd be powered on in 6 months. | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nevermind | 21:37 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, hildon membership might sound nonsensical but it actually means "member of the maemo community" | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now THAT's something I can grok | 21:37 |
| qwazix | so let's stay with that interpretation until we are able to amend the ByLaws | 21:37 |
| Woody14619 | Again, if you go with the assumption that HFC = MCC, and they're following the rules, then there's really only one logical choice. | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: we can't go with assumptions | 21:38 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix, yes... and "member of the maemo community" right now is defined as having a (t)m.o account and/or merrit in the community. | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and when next week Rob tells me "Hildon members are the 3 of BoD, nobody else, look at §97.6.88, §345.2.64" then I have nothing to answer | 21:39 |
| Woody14619 | docScrutinizer05 We had to go with assuptions. There was no way to know what was going to happen over thenext 6 months. | 21:39 |
| Woody14619 | DocScrutinizer05, the bylaws clearly state that the HFC sets up those standards. | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MEH | 21:40 |
| Woody14619 | Would you rather we had the Board dictate the standards as they please? | 21:40 |
| Woody14619 | That was the third choice. | 21:40 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, that's a legitimate concern but we can't amend the bylaws *right now* so we have to live with the assumption for a little while more | 21:40 |
| kerio | i guess the important thing is to strip rob of any power at all in the shortest possible time | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MCC = HFC is an assumption that's absolutely unrelated to >>There was no way to know what was going to happen over thenext 6 months<< | 21:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nd we can't go with such assumption unless it's written anywhere | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the less I can go with assumtions about what "Hildon membership" might actually mean | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but i already said nevermind, I'm fed up with it already | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | So tell me... put yourself in my place 6 months ago. Nokia says "servers are going off Jan 1". We're writing bylaws and need criteria for membership. How would you define it? In a way that's legally provable and binding, with -$500 in the budget. | 21:42 |
| kerio | owner of one or more NITs | 21:42 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, HFC will decide what it takes to be Hildon member, so if all goes well and HFC says Hildon member == maemo community member @ first meeting | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I won't do anything like that | 21:42 |
| kerio | or - sigh - N9s or N950s | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | kerio: provable how? | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since it's wasted time and energy to put myself into a place 6 months ago | 21:43 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, cherry | 21:43 |
| qwazix | muahahaha | 21:43 |
| kerio | timestamp and n900 on head, obviously | 21:43 |
| kerio | /r/n900gonewild | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | It's easy to criticise whats in place, knowing now that servers are still up and how things have happened. | 21:44 |
| kerio | "I'm so shy, but here's [m]y transitions.ini" | 21:44 |
| qwazix | kerio, are you ok? | 21:44 |
| kerio | i can't believe nobody here has ever gone on reddit :/ | 21:45 |
| kerio | *never | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when I ask "what's been the intetional meaning of 'hildon membership' then I won't go with assumptions, since I have somebody here to ask what it actually been, not what we assume it was" | 21:45 |
| Woody14619 | kerio, I have.. & got the joke.. just... not in a joking mode atm. | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I'm goddamn NOT CRITICIZING ANYTHING! | 21:46 |
| qwazix | cool down people, come on | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I tend to call this meeting closed for me | 21:46 |
| Woody14619 | You asked the intent.. I told you. That you don't want it to include assuptions is irrelivant. It included them because it needed to at the time, one way or the other. | 21:46 |
| kerio | Woody14619: we already went through the route of "intent" once | 21:47 |
| kerio | it didn't go so well | 21:47 |
| Woody14619 | Either we assumed reasonable people would be in HFC and contoinue the MCC tradition, or we hard code it in and assume servers exist in 6 months. | 21:47 |
| Woody14619 | Both would have been assuptions. | 21:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: ok, really. nevermind. I see you can't answer questions in a way that would help me out | 21:47 |
| Woody14619 | I DID anwser your question... you just don't like the answer. | 21:48 |
| Woody14619 | anyway... voting is setup. | 21:48 |
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| qwazix | Woody14619, thanks for that | 21:49 |
| Woody14619 | If I get to the "clone vote" button for people that dont' want to be bothered to vote twice, I do. If not people vote twice. | 21:49 |
| Woody14619 | Frankly I'm not sure it's worth the bother at this point. | 21:49 |
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| qwazix | Woody14619, if it's not too much a hassle I'd appreciate if you did it | 21:50 |
| Woody14619 | I will try. But I've spent a lot of time on Maemo related things lately at the cost of other items, which are now starting to show the lack of attention. | 21:51 |
| qwazix | It's okay even without | 21:51 |
| Woody14619 | Reguardless, the others are setup, so worst case people vote twice. Just hoping to get it in place to allow a "copy my MMC vote to HFC" or other way around. | 21:52 |
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| Woody14619 | \o | 21:57 |
| Woody14619 | so, qwazix, you said you had some other item? | 21:58 |
| Woody14619 | Or was that covered? | 21:58 |
| qwazix | Yeah, Win7Mac did some nice banners for the elections https://www.dropbox.com/sh/bfepsm83179n99e/wdbEKS9TOq | 21:58 |
| Woody14619 | Oh. :) Pretty. :) | 21:59 |
| qwazix | I suggested that he puts them on tmo for discussion/poll, but as time is closing in, we might as well put a random one up on tmo | 21:59 |
| qwazix | chem|st, ^^ comments? | 21:59 |
| Woody14619 | Should definitly ask a moderator to put one up. | 21:59 |
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| Woody14619 | The last one is generic enough to just cover everything. That's nice. | 22:00 |
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| qwazix | I think that's all for today. | 22:02 |
| qwazix | I'll have to go soon, if there isn't anything else. | 22:02 |
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| Woody14619 | I was good from the start. | 22:03 |
| Woody14619 | And you're the only Council member here, so. :P | 22:03 |
| Woody14619 | .oO(there are a few potential future candidates here...) | 22:03 |
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| Win7Mac | Hi! | 22:05 |
| Win7Mac | If you want to use the ones with date, please check if they're correct | 22:06 |
| Win7Mac | The one with "token_sent" was intended to put the right number in there, OFC | 22:07 |
| qwazix | :nod: | 22:07 |
| qwazix | I have to go, everybody have a nice evening/morning/whatever | 22:09 |
| qwazix | bye | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | Even the Xs are nice. :) Just hope nobody tries to vote with that as a token. ;) | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | o/ | 22:09 |
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| Win7Mac | :-) | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | I'm off as well... probably for the weekend. Don't forget to vote everyone! | 22:09 |
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| kerio | hold on, who's candidated for HiFoBoD? | 22:11 |
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