| Woody14619 | It wasn't always so. But then someone sent things to people, and demanded either payment, or to send it back, unsolicited. That caused a ruling that people can not be held liable for unsolicited items. | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Woody14619 | Yes, I get that. | 00:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's so natural that it's not even mentioned in contracts | 00:00 |
| Woody14619 | Another reason I love going the Europe. You are all rather sane, and respect one another. | 00:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | usually | 00:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gets worse | 00:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | americanization | 00:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | everywhere | 00:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but we resist | 00:01 |
| Woody14619 | Europe is like a fish bowl full of different exotic fish. They all look and act different, but they all seem to work together and get along with the neighbors for the most part. | 00:01 |
| Woody14619 | The US is like a fish bowl full of perhana, sharks, and blowfish, with the occasional gold fish, swiming for his life to stay out of the way of the others. | 00:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 00:03 |
| Woody14619 | By default, you are protected from physical violence against you (usually), and guaranteed just about nothing. | 00:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we came from kingdoms in the past, you came from trappers shooting indians | 00:03 |
| Woody14619 | if by indians, you meant "anyone not American", then yes. | 00:04 |
| Woody14619 | .oO(A few British got shot too as I recall, for example) | 00:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hat's hapening here too | 00:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's happening here too | 00:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or happened | 00:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it been ruled by kings usually | 00:05 |
| Woody14619 | Happily, the US is slowly starting to eek into the first world... we *almost* have something close to healthcare now that, if you're dirt poor and have no money, you can still get some minimal treatment. | 00:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while USA came from an anarchic structure and never gave a shit about government | 00:06 |
| * Woody14619 nods | 00:06 | |
| kerio | Woody14619: you dirty commie socialist | 00:07 |
| Woody14619 | so again, when you're talking to Rob (or me, or MT), you're talking to a goldfish. So when we ask "Can you get the shark to not look at us", the answer is not "That's not a shark, it's a yellow-tail". All the goldfish sees is a shark... | 00:08 |
| warfare | oO | 00:08 |
| Woody14619 | the best solution is to ask the yellowtail to agree to not eat the goldfish, and call it a day. | 00:08 |
| Woody14619 | Even if it makes no sense, becuase the yellowtail has no desire or ability to eat said goldfish... To the goldfish, they're all sharks. | 00:09 |
| Woody14619 | kerio: gay dirty commie socialist hippie, thank you very much... | 00:10 |
| Woody14619 | kerio: opps, add pro-choice... ;) | 00:10 |
| Woody14619 | though that's somewhat implied with commie and hippie... | 00:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: §3 of your proposal is probably ok | 00:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 1 and 2 are moot | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | §4 partially ok, it's probably too general since it even would include network traffic and electric power etc | 00:12 |
| Woody14619 | You may also note lots of things want "written concent". I think that's a throw back from when the US postal service was trying to drum up business. Everything had to be "written". Some older contracts even specify "via registered mail".... | 00:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | $5 ok | 00:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except there's no internet account | 00:14 |
| Woody14619 | See, to you these are all probably "givens". In the US, if it's not stipulated, ISPs can do these things. | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just a "storage contract" | 00:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or generally "contract" | 00:14 |
| Woody14619 | Opps. :) I can remove the word "account" | 00:15 |
| Woody14619 | tring "Internet service account", insert "contract" | 00:15 |
| Woody14619 | Again, this was a strip-down from an existing ISP contract, so. :P The original was 7-ish pages of this... Lots of it dealing with payment, types of payment, times of payment, service termination on non-payment, appeals of such, etc. | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | §6 warfare would have issues. I think with OK from "us" it's ok to move data to IPHH provided vServers for example, or use their backup storage if they allow | 00:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | however IPHH will not tamper with our data without us asking for it | 00:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they will sign this | 00:17 |
| Woody14619 | Warfare doing so as an agent of us is fine. As an agent of "them" would not... | 00:17 |
| Woody14619 | Hmm.. can adjust that a little. | 00:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | §8 is again talking about "internet service" | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IPHH does not officially offer any such service to us | 00:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's more like "ooops, your device got accidentally connected to our internet" | 00:21 |
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| Woody14619 | The top paragraph states "provided internet housing service (hereinafter "Internet Services") | 00:22 |
| Woody14619 | should we replace that with Housing Service throughout? | 00:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | §9 is way beyond what anybody here is able to check even, nobody will sign this, simply for the indigestinility | 00:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (housing) replace it with "storage"? | 00:25 |
| Woody14619 | ? ( just states that their liability, for anything, is at most the price paid for the service. (Which in 11 is set at 1 euro.) | 00:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or whatever the proper US term for placing something in your attic and keep it dry until the owner picks it up | 00:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | §9 I wouldn't sign such stuff if I were a company, since it's so obscure I can't figure what hidden tarpits are in it | 00:27 |
| Woody14619 | housing works. storage would imply it is in an unused state, and that using it (eg accidentally plugging it in) would be against that. | 00:27 |
| Woody14619 | That's a boiler plate US part. | 00:28 |
| Woody14619 | I can try to parse it down a little.... | 00:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm, then you suggest HiFo would sue IPHH for pluggging our server to mains and internet? | 00:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | accidently? | 00:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | infact IPHH does *not* plan to offer housing officially | 00:29 |
| Woody14619 | I think this may be a word definition issue. | 00:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | either you take it for free as a side effect, or it will not happen, since housing with implied plugging server in already implies a CoLocation contract | 00:30 |
| Woody14619 | In the US, storage has an implication that it's going into a box and is packed away, not to be seen. | 00:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so what? who's going to sue whom if it's more than that? | 00:31 |
| Woody14619 | housing would mean storing something, but that the item may be in a common area, and therefore may see light use or exposure to use. | 00:31 |
| Woody14619 | I don't think anyone is suing anyone. | 00:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so HiFo should be fine with storage | 00:32 |
| Woody14619 | The issue is the wording has to make sense to all involved. If housing has a specific meaning there that's diferent, maybe we need another word. | 00:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IPHH does not offer any power or internet or other stuff officially | 00:32 |
| Woody14619 | Hifo sure, but if someone sue's HiFo, it's HiFo convincing a judge that they believed storage to include definitions most would not associate with that word here. | 00:32 |
| Woody14619 | Lets think of other words.... | 00:33 |
| Woody14619 | containment? | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | conserve? | 00:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll ask IPHH guys about what they would be willing to sign | 00:34 |
| Woody14619 | lodging? :) | 00:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe housing is fine as well | 00:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, nice | 00:34 |
| Woody14619 | quartered? | 00:34 |
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| Woody14619 | And again, if the cost is off, I think there was another number... that's fine. Generally to be considered legal in the US a contract for services must have an exchange, and that value of excahnged items must be a minimum of $1. | 00:39 |
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| Woody14619 | Gah... company internet is going away for a bit. :P May be back on 3G, but it's spotty at best. | 01:05 |
| Woody14619 | (Well, here in my office, next to the stack of hardware, making lots of RF... | 01:06 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, contract draft sent to warfare for review | 01:28 |
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