| *** Pali has quit IRC | 00:29 | |
| *** xes has quit IRC | 01:21 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 02:40 | |
| *** kolp has quit IRC | 03:02 | |
| *** kerio has quit IRC | 04:18 | |
| *** kerio has joined #maemo-meeting | 04:18 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has quit IRC | 06:03 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer06 has joined #maemo-meeting | 06:03 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer06 is now known as DocScrutinizer05 | 06:03 | |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo-meeting | 09:02 | |
| *** Pali has quit IRC | 09:16 | |
| *** qwazix has quit IRC | 09:39 | |
| *** qwazix has joined #maemo-meeting | 09:39 | |
| *** freemangordon has joined #maemo-meeting | 10:16 | |
| *** kolp has joined #maemo-meeting | 10:22 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo-meeting | 11:31 | |
| *** freemangordon has left #maemo-meeting | 12:06 | |
| *** qwazix has left #maemo-meeting | 12:30 | |
| *** lbt_ has joined #maemo-meeting | 13:12 | |
| *** lbt has quit IRC | 13:13 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 14:26 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo-meeting | 14:39 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC | 14:41 | |
| *** lbt_ is now known as lbt | 14:52 | |
| *** kolp has quit IRC | 15:07 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo-meeting | 15:11 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC | 15:31 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 15:48 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo-meeting | 15:51 | |
| *** qwazix has joined #maemo-meeting | 15:56 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 16:00 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo-meeting | 16:33 | |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo-meeting | 16:34 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo-meeting | 17:25 | |
| *** ZogG_laptop has joined #maemo-meeting | 17:25 | |
| *** freemangordon has joined #maemo-meeting | 18:19 | |
| *** freemangordon has left #maemo-meeting | 18:19 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 18:38 | |
| *** starkwiz has joined #maemo-meeting | 19:54 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mhm, coffe takes another 2 minutes, so I'll "be late" ;-) | 19:59 |
|---|---|---|
| kerio | we all know that you're on irc 24/7, there's no such thing as "late" for you anyway | 20:00 |
| kerio | although, lack of coffee... | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | problem fixed :-D | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, let me start topic list: | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ## topics | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ### NielDK resigning | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ### xes approved | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ### server moved to IPHH, mounted to rack, and base system incl XEN installed | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ### no progress on the "Nemein to fix *.maemo.org stuff" front :-/ | 20:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I pretty much have said all I have to contribute, no need by me to elaborate on any of those topics | 20:08 |
| *** MentalistTraceur has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:09 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: here? | 20:09 |
| MentalistTraceur | ÂAnd I have arrived. | 20:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: hi! | 20:09 |
| MentalistTraceur | Client wasn't connecting at fkirst. | 20:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-02-22 19:04:50] <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, let me start topic list: | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-02-22 19:04:58] <DocScrutinizer05> ## topics | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-02-22 19:05:17] <DocScrutinizer05> ### NielDK resigning | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-02-22 19:05:36] <DocScrutinizer05> ### xes approved | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-02-22 19:06:02] <DocScrutinizer05> ### server moved to IPHH, mounted to rack, and base system incl XEN installed | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-02-22 19:06:40] <DocScrutinizer05> ### no progress on the "Nemein to fix *.maemo.org stuff" front :-/ | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2013-02-22 19:08:03] <DocScrutinizer05> I pretty much have said all I have to contribute, no need by me to elaborate on any of those topics | 20:10 |
| MentalistTraceur | Also, apologies again for me not getting last week's minutes done. Got swamped with work this week. | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | don't make a science out of it, just post da shite somewhere | 20:10 |
| qwazix | sorry went to the fridge :) | 20:11 |
| MentalistTraceur | (Will have to attend wedding this weekend as well, so minutes draft will probably only get done Sunday.) | 20:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (ooops, my windows!!!) | 20:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | better | 20:12 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, did you see Niel's mail? | 20:13 |
| Woody14619 | You all chat too much... FYI. :) Takes forever to catch up on news. | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | any of you 2 other remaining guys got additional topics? | 20:13 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, I have nothing to add to agenda off the top of my head, so we can do whatever is needed to be said/done about the topics Doc mentioned. | 20:13 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: Yes I did, and you're right, I didn't mind you replying on behalf of me as well. | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm already done with all of that, unless some attendee has a question | 20:13 |
| *** xes has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:14 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe I like to again thank Niel for all his dedication to maemo and wish him all the best | 20:14 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, :nod:. I asked because it didn't arrive in my gmail account. | 20:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | So DocScrutinizer05: you mean that the server has actually arrived and gotten mounted at IPHH? | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and then there were three | 20:15 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, just let me skim again over topics | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: exactly | 20:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | I.e. it's physically there and set up already? | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 20:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | Great. | 20:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | :) | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah your tech staff does a hell of a job all day long | 20:15 |
| kerio | who paid for the shipping, in the end? | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia | 20:16 |
| kerio | yay nokia | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (many thanks for that!) | 20:16 |
| MentalistTraceur | By my count the situation at present is we have 2 board and 3 council members left? | 20:16 |
| kerio | what about the money that was raised for shipping and upgrading? | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 20:16 |
| kerio | was that sufficient for the upgrades? | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: I will keep it a few more weeks, in case we run into other needs, then send the whole amount to HiFo | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or return to donors | 20:17 |
| Woody14619 | Technically, Ivan must submit his resignation in writing. | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: he did, in an email | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if that counts | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, lists.maemo.org borked | 20:18 |
| MentalistTraceur | Woody14619: ditto what DocScrutinizer05 said. | 20:18 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, is it ok to continue as a 3 person council? | 20:18 |
| Woody14619 | I think it requires a written letter. Rob would know for sure. Either way, once done, that triggers an election cycle for Board. | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he even sent it to community-ML | 20:18 |
| MentalistTraceur | I think e-mails should count, although US is a bit backwards about what digital things count as real documents. | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: eh? | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WUT? | 20:19 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix: Yes. According to Maemo Community Council laws, you can continuge down to 0. Foundation Council, min is 3. | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we're still 3 | 20:19 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, thanks | 20:19 |
| Woody14619 | As for Board, trigger is under 3. | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: also "written letter" TO WHOM?? | 20:20 |
| Woody14619 | I need to look to see which version they adopted. The latest version included a week for them to react to a resignation by appointing a new member. But I'm not sure that was the one they approved. | 20:21 |
| MentalistTraceur | Yeah, that's what I was wondering about - I had a vague inkling that a Board member dropping from a 3-member Board would force reelection, but I didn't remember for sure. | 20:21 |
| kerio | so... board reelection huh? nice | 20:21 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: To the rest of Board, presumably. But I still think e-mails should count. | 20:21 |
| Woody14619 | MT: Yes, to the other members. | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: nobody going to "appoint a new member" for *council* | 20:21 |
| Woody14619 | No.. This is all for BOARD | 20:21 |
| Woody14619 | Council is fine. | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we're not talking about BOARD issues here | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | zhis is COUNCIL meeting | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and Niel been council member, not board member | 20:22 |
| Woody14619 | I get that. But the discussion was on both. And frankly, Council is the watchdog for Board, as much as Board is for Council. | 20:22 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, I think we should talk about Board too | 20:22 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: I brought up member counts for both board and council, it makes sense that woody would discuss Board issues as well. | 20:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we can do this, so put it on agenda | 20:23 |
| qwazix | We must brace ourselves and ask what do we need for board to finish before election cycle starts | 20:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we frankyl got no infra to start any such election right now | 20:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, so, ##Board re-election triggered by Ivan's departure | 20:23 |
| Woody14619 | Election cycle is one month min, so... not far off from when the elction for Council would start anyway. | 20:24 |
| qwazix | Also, it's council that's obliged to trigger election | 20:24 |
| qwazix | according to ByLaws | 20:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | ###Since council has the duty of presiding over elections, we need to figure out how soon should we act/how soon at the latest are we required to act | 20:25 |
| Woody14619 | And yes, voting is semi-borked, but I've got the 90% solved now. Voting machine is up again on m.o though it has no history. | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm extremely reluctant to do this right now | 20:25 |
| MentalistTraceur | I agree, on that topic, that we should vote at least until migration is done. | 20:25 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, seconded | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ###SINCE: no valid command | 20:25 |
| Woody14619 | Technically, Board should be calling for it's own. Council should be proding it to act. | 20:25 |
| MentalistTraceur | s/should vote/should not vote on new board/ | 20:26 |
| qwazix | I just feel we should discuss it, because people are going to ask | 20:26 |
| Woody14619 | Council can force by calling a dual eleciton, but there's not mandated time frame to do that in. | 20:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aaah | 20:27 |
| Woody14619 | The only mandated timeframe for elections is Council must announce one in the next month to 6 weeks for itself minimally, to be held in April. | 20:27 |
| Woody14619 | (Nov + 6 = April) | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ###topic: starkwiz newly joined sysop volunteer in spe | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | welcome starkwiz! | 20:27 |
| Woody14619 | Yay! :) | 20:27 |
| kerio | welcome! | 20:28 |
| starkwiz | Hi everyone, thanks :) | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as usual it will take some time to integrate him into the team | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he's lingering around until that happens, contributing with his valuable advice and contributions | 20:29 |
| starkwiz | :) | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while we're at it: xes got officially approved as co-sysop under warfare | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | by both council AND BOARD! | 20:30 |
| kerio | OMG | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though the latter preliminary | 20:30 |
| kerio | i didn't even know board approved warfare | 20:30 |
| kerio | xes: yay | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | warfare got officially approved | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also merlin1991 and Woody14619 got officially approved to their particular mainteiner jobs | 20:31 |
| merlin1991 | I did? | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (dang, that's cold outside. Closes windows) | 20:31 |
| kerio | merlin1991: congratulations! | 20:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | (Delayed) Welcome starkwiz. (Very delayed) So about the earlier point: I say we note to Board that they are supposed to do [whatever they're supposed to do by bylaws about having members < 3], and if after the migration is 'settled' they still haven't complied, we should (even if it's time to reelect council anyway) force a re-election of both bodies. If they've followed the bylaws ... | 20:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | ... appropriately in that time, we just do our council elections as normal. | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | merlin1991: yep, see last board minutes | 20:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | Congrats merlin1991 and Woody14619. | 20:32 |
| MentalistTraceur | Also welcome xes, I think, I haven't said yet. | 20:32 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, would you be willing to take a seat in Board? | 20:33 |
| Woody14619 | Status: Midguard still isn't running Karma moduels correctly, still looking into it. But the cron stuff is up. Working on updating voting booth to automate setting up elections and such. | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not that happy with dual seats in board *and* council | 20:33 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: If that is what the public wants of me, yes. | 20:33 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: I think it helps keep communication going between both bodies, honestly. | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd rather favor ivgalvez' suggestion of Woody for his successor | 20:34 |
| qwazix | My recommendation is to find a well known community member and officially support him to take a seat in board | 20:34 |
| Woody14619 | I don't take issue with a single person having dual status, but don't want to see more than that, esp in bodies near 3. | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: I have a certain idea you're already more than loaded with your council tasks | 20:35 |
| qwazix | If board accepts, we have avoided mid-term elections | 20:35 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, would you go for it? | 20:35 |
| Woody14619 | Lol. :) Not sure I'll get approval from who's there now, but certainly would not object to it. My busy time at work is pretty much past. | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so I vote for supporting Woody for board | 20:36 |
| kerio | who would have to decide, in the end? the current board? | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | he's evry knowledgeable about the bylaws and stuff, and a active member of community, and we have pretty good contact to hhim | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | kerio: yes | 20:37 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, I also prefer to keep you here exclusively and have Woody@Board | 20:37 |
| Woody14619 | Worst case, an election cycle is started. I'm pretty confident we can have stuff setup and running for at least an election by then. | 20:37 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: Yeah, on the "more than loaded" point, you're probably correct. | 20:37 |
| Woody14619 | kerio:yes | 20:38 |
| warfare | hi everyone. | 20:38 |
| qwazix | hi warfare | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi pal! | 20:38 |
| warfare | my ears are still humming after ~5 hours in the colo. ;) | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | warfare: xes got preliminary approval | 20:38 |
| warfare | yay! | 20:39 |
| kerio | warfare: the sound of happiness | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so go ahead with whatever you guys do, keep me up to date though, please | 20:39 |
| warfare | Sure. | 20:39 |
| MentalistTraceur | At any rate, I'm fine with woody as council recommendation for Board replacement, but even if I wasn't, in a 3-person council, the two of your (qwazix' and DocScrutinizer05's) votes already count as council majority. | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we probably want unanimous decisions on such stuff, eh? | 20:40 |
| Woody14619 | FWIW: If I'm pulled, I'll be happy to be on Board. If not, meh. :) I'm not concerned either way. | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's a man's word | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 20:41 |
| kerio | "Meh." - WOODY 2013 | 20:41 |
| Woody14619 | What I am concerned about is getting Karma/voting back up in time for the next cycle, be that in 1 month or 3. | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ##note: unanimously decided to suggest Woody14619 as ivan's successor to board | 20:41 |
| Woody14619 | Which is what I'll be focusing on this weekend. | 20:42 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, if this recommendation comes from either me or DocScrutinizer05 it will look, ehm, weird. So if it's not too much to ask I'd like you to write that letter on behalf of all of us. | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "we support Ivgalvez' sugestion of Woody14619 for his successor to seat in BoD" | 20:43 |
| Woody14619 | Wierd how? :P Gerbick suggesting me, now that would be wierd... :) | 20:43 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, you have to promise you'll keep coming to council meetings once in a while though | 20:43 |
| MentalistTraceur | lol@kerio. qwazix: sure thing. I'm often the 'mouthpiece' for formal council-to-board mail anyway, so it makes sense that I would do it. | 20:43 |
| qwazix | ^^ that. And being reminded of that, A big THANK YOU for your work regarding the move | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems to me that's one of the jobs of council chair | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and yes, thank you a lot for doing this tedious job | 20:45 |
| MentalistTraceur | Woody14619: Yeah, I should note my support for you is significantly influenced by the fact that you show up to many Council meetings. | 20:45 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix: Have only missed a few since a month before my first election. | 20:45 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: Agreed. | 20:45 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, it was supposed to sound like half-joke that one but now that I read it again I didn't manage that | 20:46 |
| Woody14619 | Anyway. :) So... Niels is still out with the broken leg I take it? I know a short while back the original Nokia employee who setup autobuilder was visiting. Any chance we could talk him into poking it? :) | 20:47 |
| qwazix | Mostly commenting on the fact that everybody who comes in contact with Board gets infected and becomes distant and remote | 20:47 |
| MentalistTraceur | (And no thanks necessary guys; I'm happy to be contributing in some way.) | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: who would that be? (original nokia autobulder wizard) | 20:47 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, please make sure that you mention that this recomendation comes for us because we want to avoid election. | 20:48 |
| qwazix | We don't want to 'infiltrate' board. | 20:48 |
| Woody14619 | Can't recall the handle, but will find it when I get to a system w/ a real keyboard. | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: I don't think any such comment is needed. after all we just support ivgalvez' sugestion | 20:50 |
| qwazix | ok, this looks like a good argument too ^ | 20:51 |
| qwazix | (sidenote: that election thing has come up on tmo too and there's a small discussion there) | 20:52 |
| MentalistTraceur | As usual, I'll send out a draft of recommendation e-mail to council only first, so we can iron out exact wording that way. | 20:52 |
| Woody14619 | I think I still have an e-mail from him directly, will chat with him. He may not be up for it, but... you never know. | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm quite unhappy with Nemein's dedication to fixing broken maemo stuff. Since "we" need to do something about it "officially" I'd like to ask all users in here to list all known showstoppers in *.maemo.org that need urgent fixing | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll send a mail to support@nemein.com about aggregated issues | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CC board, CC Nokia | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we can do the collecting-the-bits after the meeting right here | 20:55 |
| qwazix | I have two such bits | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fine, but pelase after the meeting ended | 20:55 |
| MentalistTraceur | Alright, I'm fine with calling meeting over, then, if there's nothing else from anyone. | 20:56 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 swears a lot | 20:56 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Hi everyone, | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Rob just reminded me that the Board does in fact have to vote on all SysAdmin level volunteers... While the Council is free to appoint repo and community maintainers, the position of SysAdmin hold quite a lot more responsibility. | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | For this reason, I am retracting my last email... The Board, once we choose a new member, will vote on the appointment of xes. | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Thanks... Sorry for any confusion... | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Tim | 20:57 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 headdesks | 20:57 | |
| qwazix | !@#$% | 20:58 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 decides to ignore this mail | 20:58 | |
| qwazix | What mail? | 20:58 |
| Woody14619 | .oO("Opps, we already gave him the password?") | 20:58 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Sigh* | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | warfare: well, so you have to keep your supervision close and permissions tight until a few more weeks went by | 20:59 |
| Woody14619 | .oO("One from the religious cast, one from the warrior class, and one from the admin class?") | 21:00 |
| warfare | Will do. | 21:00 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 honestly wonders if BoD thinks all the world stops spinning til they got a operational state again | 21:00 | |
| qwazix | .oO("And one gone mad") | 21:00 |
| qwazix | .oO("that's me") | 21:01 |
| Woody14619 | Lol. K. Off to work on the code that pays the bills, so I can work more on the code that doesn't later. :) | 21:01 |
| MentalistTraceur | xes was going to have root access to the entire infra, yes? | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: seeya | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: that been the plan | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though under close supervision of warfare | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | warfare asked for that | 21:03 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Nod* Okay. I can kinda understand that resistence on the Board's end then. Annoying because of their inconsistent meetings, but I can see where they are coming from, even if I don't fully agree with how they approach the issue of volunteer approval. | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NB that on the new servers there's NO maemo stuff yet, so we're free to grant whatever access we want, to whomever we want | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since you can't ruin the hardware even when malicious intentions | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what *I* can't get over is their concept to agree everything in an official meeting only | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | THE HECK they are max 3 guys! | 21:06 |
| MentalistTraceur | Yeah, that's what I have an issue with. | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Oh hi Tim, Hi Rob. Let's call it an official meeting! | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | W*T*F?! | 21:08 |
| Woody14619 | Legal reasons.... Corporation vs volunteer group. | 21:08 |
| MentalistTraceur | I don't mind them formalizing the process, but a quick discussion by e-mail should be just as acceptable as a formal meeting if everyone's in agreement. | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't freely give a shit about formal issues, as long as they know anyway what they will decide in 3 weeks since they already talked about it | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | Irony: PLaying strict by the rules for things like meetings, but not on other topics (elections, resignations, etc.) | 21:10 |
| Woody14619 | But to be fair: If someone dislikes what you do, there's little they can do about it but elect you out next cycle. | 21:10 |
| Woody14619 | Borad can technically be sued, as they're a legal entity. As can Board members. | 21:11 |
| MentalistTraceur | That's why I firmly believe in unconditional recall powers for the populace in any democratic/election-using society. | 21:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll evetually consider sueing them for procrastinating maemo to death | 21:12 |
| MentalistTraceur | I don't think I bothered suggesting it for HiFo bylaws because I thought it was too much me shoving my idealism somewhere where it wasn't too needed. | 21:12 |
| MentalistTraceur | But it would probably have been useful to have. | 21:12 |
| qwazix | As much as I agree with the above, there's no use | 21:13 |
| qwazix | let's move on | 21:13 |
| MentalistTraceur | I.e. a popular vote instigated by the community should be at any time enough to remove an elected member from their position. | 21:13 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Shrug* like I said for my part earlier: I'm happy to call meeting over if no one else has anything to add. | 21:14 |
| MentalistTraceur | Now I'm just rambling. | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly if it was "just for the fun of playing power games" (and not about keeping maemo alive, something of minor importance to BoD, since they got greater "missions"), i'd clearly opt for immediate BIg BANG | 21:14 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, this is kinda there, with council being able to start elections for both bodies | 21:14 |
| Woody14619 | Which is why I put it in there. ;) | 21:15 |
| Woody14619 | Despite several attempts by others to remove it... Better of two evils. | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: thanks for that! | 21:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: Yes, which iirc I suggested to begin with in the thread discussing it, as one of the optional solutions to the problem I was pointing out in that post that the Board couldn't be forced into reelections. | 21:16 |
| Woody14619 | With a popular recall, you need to have a % of people calling for it. What's that % here? Of the 8K tmo users, or the 5K maemo accounts, or of the "Active" users... | 21:16 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, if it wasn't for keeping maemo alive I would've been long gone (and maybe cause a shitstorm with it). I would very much love to work on fennec than sending <swearword> mails to OSUOSL | 21:16 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 stares at *THE* BIG RED BUTTON | 21:16 | |
| MentalistTraceur | But still, it's different, and not mutually exclusive from, recall. | 21:16 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, we could solve that with a % of last election ballots | 21:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | Woody14619: Another implementation issue, yes, but not necessarily an insurmountable one, though that was one of the reasons that I didn't bother suggesting it back when bylaws were under review. | 21:17 |
| Woody14619 | Assuming we can keep a history of that now.. yes. Saddly, looks like that data from last cycle is now gone. | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: OUCH | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how much votes we had on board elections? 256? | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | many* | 21:18 |
| Woody14619 | .oO(It could encourage people to vote... just saying. ;) | 21:18 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, objections to calling meeting officially over? | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I bet some * user would be able to talk more than 200 tmo lusers into everything he wants | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | No, ~250 for Council, ~170 for Board. Even with the mail, some didn't opt to vote on Board. | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | doc: true, but then how many of them voted in the last cycle? That's what would matter. ;) | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we have no means to find out who voted | 21:20 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, how would you know if they voted? | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | votes a secret | 21:20 |
| qwazix | On the other hand they could use the old anonymous token to get into new vote | 21:21 |
| Woody14619 | Tokens. Votes are secret, but it can be determined who voted in the last election by left over tokens. | 21:21 |
| * MentalistTraceur wants water proof body for N900. | 21:21 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, I'm in a mood to step back from council if we talk about that any longer | 21:21 |
| qwazix | (though who keeps token long after election) | 21:21 |
| qwazix | yeah, let's stop it | 21:21 |
| MentalistTraceur | (Have to walk thugh rain right now) | 21:21 |
| Woody14619 | qwzix: the database. :) | 21:22 |
| qwazix | Woody14619, wouldn't that need the voter to provide his old token to be given admittance? | 21:22 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 afk | 21:22 | |
| Woody14619 | No, actually. In fact, once you vote, your token is destroyed. | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | But what's left in the database is the pile of old tokens that were NOT used. | 21:23 |
| qwazix | anyway, I'm sure there is a technical way to solve this | 21:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | So, final call for objections to formally wrapping up meeting? We're kinda on general chatting as of 15+ minutes ago. | 21:23 |
| qwazix | end it | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | yup. | 21:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | Well, not general chatting, but on what I'd say isn't /meeting/ topics per se. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | That's part of what makes your vote anonymous is that your token is the only think linking you to your vote. | 21:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Bangs gavel* Meeting adjourned. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | And once you cast the vote, the token is destroyed, thus breaking any link or way of tracking one to the other. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | But the pile of left over tokens each reference back to the person that didn't use their token to cast a vote. | 21:25 |
| qwazix | we could keep a seperate list of tokens just of who voted with no link to what he voted | 21:25 |
| MentalistTraceur | I'm going to be afk for a while now, but will hopefully remain connected to irc. | 21:25 |
| qwazix | and instruct users to keep them | 21:26 |
| Woody14619 | So one could easily extract a list from that of whom was elegable and subtract who didn't vote, leaving a list of who DID vote. | 21:26 |
| qwazix | If we want to instigate a removal of authority, those who have tokens are allowed to cast a disbelief vote | 21:26 |
| qwazix | (Anyway, in my understanding of democracy as a system everybody is obliged to vote so while voting is anonymous, who voted is not secret info) | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: the voting system been carefully designed to avoid such nonsense | 21:27 |
| qwazix | Fun trivia: the original meaning of the word idiot is one who doesn't care about public affairs :) | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: no you can't since you don't have the basic data of that point in time anymore, of whom qualified for being eligable to vote and who didn't | 21:28 |
| Woody14619 | Yes, you do... | 21:29 |
| Woody14619 | The electorate table is quite static. | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you don't, karma of that time is gone | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh | 21:29 |
| Woody14619 | Not true. It's stored in the electorate table. | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, whatever, the whole idea is BS | 21:29 |
| Woody14619 | So electorate table with an inverted join on the token table = people who voted last cycle. :) | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "hey you 150 guys, you were keen enough to vote a 5 months ago. Now we have to ask you if you would reconsider" | 21:30 |
| Woody14619 | You can't tell who voted for what still though, unless you can get a time-stamp for each row drop. | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *COUGHULLSHICOUGH* | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | I agree. :) | 21:31 |
| qwazix | ###point for mail to nemein support: repo not synced with maemo.org/downloads (may be related to hash sum error) | 21:31 |
| qwazix | ###point for mail to nemein support: maemo SDK not installable unless one does it manually (5h process) | 21:32 |
| Woody14619 | hash sum issues were semi-common before migration. Neils was re-indexing almost monthly when I was Council due to problems. | 21:32 |
| Woody14619 | It was only affecting a few packages at a time though. Not en-mass like it's happening now. | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: I can't send it like this. I need proper URLs and "how to reproduce" and what exactly is suspected to be broken | 21:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: this way it's not accountable to a particular responsible maintainer, heck not even to a subsystem | 21:34 |
| qwazix | first point, http://maemo.org/downloads last package is from 27-11 | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that URL doesn't even exist for me, it redirects | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and on the redirected page there's no "last package" | 21:35 |
| qwazix | http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ is the correct link, my browser took ages to load | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's "Fresh" list if you mean that, on http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ | 21:36 |
| qwazix | yes that one has latest packages, and it's stuck at InfoZip since before migration | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now if you pint me to a repo pkg that's supposed to show up there but doesn't, we have a case | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | point* | 21:37 |
| qwazix | my app, rawcam, approved for extras after that date (lemme find link) | 21:37 |
| qwazix | http://maemo.org/packages/view/rawcam/ | 21:38 |
| qwazix | promoted 2012-12-28 10:55 | 21:38 |
| qwazix | and never made it to maemo downloads | 21:38 |
| qwazix | About second point, due to scratchbox.org being dead, the maemo 5 sdk scripts don't work so it has to be done manually, downloading all scratchbox packages from skeiron and dpkg-ing them. I don't have any more info. | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: so it's not repo but even the package interface has new version, just it doesn't show up in fronpage synthesized list "Fresh"? | 21:42 |
| qwazix | Yes, package is on extras, package interface is up to date, midgard isn't | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | package interface *is* midgard afaik | 21:43 |
| qwazix | s/midgard/downloads/ | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please don't imply any details we're not sure about | 21:43 |
| qwazix | It's not just the "fresh" list | 21:44 |
| qwazix | it's the whole product page that's missing | 21:44 |
| qwazix | the equivalent of http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/zip/ is missing, | 21:45 |
| qwazix | Also the Extras Downloads counter is stuck "downloads served for Maemo 5 (Last update: 2012-12-19 12:30)" | 21:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | would you please add a ticket at roundup: "for apckage <URL> the following pages don't show correct up-to-date data: http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ "Fresh", <URL2> <detail2>..." | 21:46 |
| qwazix | ok | 21:46 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, I'm back. | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess it's ok to tag it "midgard" | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (keywords) | 21:48 |
| MentalistTraceur | Quick note @ recall and stuff - honestly, I think if implemented, it need not be done on a 'who voted last election' basis. A member who didn't or couldn't vote in an election isn't automatically less fit to see the ethical need for an elected member's recall. | 21:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | indeed, that's why i called the whole idea BS | 21:50 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ultimately recall should be a thing that comes to bear against egregiously bad elected officials, and egregious bad-ness is something a significant chunk of the entire electorate can usually agree on. | 21:51 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 waves | 21:51 | |
| MentalistTraceur | So it wouldn't necessarily have any bearing on just mildly-disliked officials. *Shrug* | 21:52 |
| MentalistTraceur | DocScrutinizer05: You leaving? | 21:52 |
| MentalistTraceur | (Or is that wave meaning something else?) | 21:52 |
| qwazix | bug posted | 21:54 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, it's just that it's hard to know when to recall | 21:58 |
| qwazix | it's really easy to gather more than the people that bothered to vote, with the low numbers we have | 21:58 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: Well, I would make recall need a majority of all 'active' community members who are eligible to vote, where 'active' status is evaluated by activity by either one's *maemo.org account, talk.maemo.org account, activity (other than idling) from a registered irc nick asociated with the user (though we don't have the infrastructure to detect that right now - I'm talking more about ... | 22:02 |
| MentalistTraceur | ... 'ideally' here), | 22:02 |
| qwazix | :nod: | 22:03 |
| qwazix | battery low, got to go. Bye! | 22:05 |
| *** MentalistTraceur has quit IRC | 22:07 | |
| *** MentalistTraceur has joined #maemo-meeting | 22:08 | |
| Woody14619 | MentalistTraceur: Problem really is about finding out what part is "active". Clearly, those who voted last time are active.... they voted. :) | 22:10 |
| Woody14619 | But I get the point on the rest of it. | 22:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | who's going to *do* something about what we discuss here? | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I completely missed qwazix' 2nd BUG | 22:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess when I can't get a comprehensive list of what to fix in maemo RIGHT NOW, we don't need to discuss hypothetical changes to HiFo byloaws | 22:12 |
| Woody14619 | Well, I'm personally working on the voting machine, to add the ability for Council/Board to add/start elections/referendums without bugging others. | 22:12 |
| Woody14619 | I also need to add to the list: Karma computations are still not happneing quite right. Looks like the custom plugins are not loaded properly? Or at the very least are not working as they should. | 22:13 |
| Woody14619 | But then I'm the one working on that, so. ;) | 22:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you've all been warned. When eventually (in 6 days?) Nemein drops that shit on our feet and leaves the room, then I'll say "I warned you, didn't I?" | 22:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then pelase don't come to me and start whining about "XY login doesn't work!" or "autobuilder is down!" or whatever | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I CANNOT check every detail of maemo infra for proper function, even if I tried | 22:16 |
| MentalistTraceur | Woody14619: After some googling, it seems that an e-mail may or may not count as 'in-writing' notification. | 22:36 |
| Woody14619 | Like I said, Rob would be the best to get advice for that on. Reguardless, action is needed on Boards part one way or the other. | 22:37 |
| MentalistTraceur | I.e. I'd have to dig through Pennsylvania statues and case-law to determine the answer more precisely than 'might count'. So you're probably right about 'in writing' being 'physical letter'. | 22:37 |
| Woody14619 | I can tell you for sure: physical letter always wins. | 22:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't see how council is under Pennsylvania laws by any means | 22:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if it were, I'd outright refuse to be part of it | 22:41 |
| Woody14619 | Doc: Nobody is talking about Council. | 22:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OMFG | 22:42 |
| Woody14619 | This is a discussion about Ivan's resignation of Board. | 22:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which happens to be one week back | 22:42 |
| Woody14619 | For Council, his resignation on IRC, or TMO, or via e-mail all was find an well. | 22:42 |
| Woody14619 | Yes... I get that. | 22:43 |
| Woody14619 | But it's still not a resolved issue. | 22:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so you have no better place and/or better time to discuss this than particularly council meeting? | 22:43 |
| Woody14619 | Council meeting ended some time ago. And it was brough up, in a proper contex mind you, during that meeting. | 22:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly when we had a council-only resign today | 22:44 |
| Woody14619 | Where would you prefer I bring it up? | 22:44 |
| Woody14619 | On TMO? | 22:45 |
| Woody14619 | Maybe make a wiki page? | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my call for listing BUGS been brought up in a similar valid manner, earlier during same meeting | 22:45 |
| Woody14619 | Yes... and it's valid and important. | 22:45 |
| Woody14619 | And people are adding bugs. | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and forgotten | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BS, nobody does | 22:45 |
| Woody14619 | I have a few to add myself. | 22:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I seriously have to warn you to abuse roundup, it's not meant to get used by 'normal' users | 22:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only tech staff (which you qualify for) | 22:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I suggested to collect bug reports in this channel, right after meeting | 22:47 |
| Woody14619 | qwazix entered one while you were bitching that nobody wasn entering any... FYI | 22:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | highly efficiently neutered by this bylaws gossip | 22:47 |
| Woody14619 | And the ones I have to put in require a little info gathering that I can't do right at this second. | 22:47 |
| Woody14619 | So I should stop doing anything until I can enter bugs? | 22:48 |
| Woody14619 | Like Council should stop doing anything until Board resolves itself? | 22:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | would you plwease bother reading what i wrote? | 22:49 |
| Woody14619 | I dropped a status here and in the admin channel, at your request. And yes, I need to enter the bugs. | 22:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, you're free to do this bug gathering any way you think might work, but don't blame *me* I hadn't asked for *users* to contribute | 22:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mind you, it's NOT about *your* bugs, you are supposed to enter them in roundup anyway, as maintainer | 22:50 |
| Woody14619 | I read what you wrote. You're pissed off because people didn't drop everything to fill in bug reports on the instant. I get that it's important, and yes, we need to get that done ASAP. But I can't do that until after work, for a number of reasons. | 22:51 |
| Woody14619 | And yes... I know it's not just my bugs... | 22:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since this been a public meeting, the call was for lurking 'normal' users | 22:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't want to see 27 tickets in roundup: "autobuilder not working", "updating packages doesn't work", "builder doesn't print success notification", "dropping stuff to drop doesn't do anything" | 22:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I asked for a brainstorming session here | 22:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | again, it's NOT about *your* bugs | 22:54 |
| Woody14619 | which is great. But if they were lurking, they've not put ideas in yet. Making sure MentalistTraceur puts this as a bullet point in the minutes and gets them out ASAP would be best. Maybe even dropping a mail on Jaffa to include it in MWKN, and/or revisiting the topic in tmo. | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HAHA | 22:56 |
| Woody14619 | Bitching that we're trying to also discuss or accomplish something besides this one topic seems a bit myopic. | 22:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we're in *severe* pressure on that | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even waiting for MWKN is a delusional plan | 22:57 |
| Woody14619 | I GET THAT. | 22:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and maybe you noticed when the last meeting minutes came out | 22:57 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 shrugs, turns around and leaves, pushing this mail to Nemein to sometimes mid of next week | 22:58 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wait, we might already own maemo.org at that time, so no more use to bitch at Nemein about it | 22:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whatever, I really can't care about *everything* | 23:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so if this one goes awry, attribute it to the "one man can only do what one man can do" rule | 23:00 |
| Woody14619 | Which is fine. I get what you want. You want someone to add unique items that are borked still to the list. I GET THAT. Personally, I can not do that RIGHT THIS SECOND. I CAN discuss other items. Yelling at others to not do other things, and do only the one thing you want done DOESN'T accomplish your goal. It instead prevents other work for getting done, because they can't do the one thing you're super-focused on. | 23:02 |
| Woody14619 | Since I'm clearly not usefull until I can work on this one topic... I'll fix your worry that I'll distract others. | 23:03 |
| *** Woody14619 has quit IRC | 23:03 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NO, I do NOT want random people adding stuff to roundup!!! | 23:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | please get THAT! | 23:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | regarding distracting others, damage done | 23:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my own fault, probably I should have insisted in collecting every chan user's comments DURING meeting, not directls _after_ official meeting | 23:06 |
| kerio | he's dead, jim | 23:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whatever, I'm thru with it | 23:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but then again, if the one who's supposed to keep discussion on topic doesn't do this but rather actively distrats from what's been on the schedule, what can I do | 23:08 |
| *** ZogG_laptop has quit IRC | 23:11 | |
| MentalistTraceur | Can someone point me to where Ivan stated that he recommended Woody as his replacement, btw? | 23:41 |
| *** Estel_ has quit IRC | 23:56 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tmo iirc | 23:59 |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!