IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2013-02-22

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DocScrutinizer05mhm, coffe takes another 2 minutes, so I'll "be late" ;-)19:59
keriowe all know that you're on irc 24/7, there's no such thing as "late" for you anyway20:00
kerioalthough, lack of coffee...20:00
DocScrutinizer05problem fixed :-D20:04
DocScrutinizer05anyway, let me start topic list:20:04
DocScrutinizer05## topics20:04
DocScrutinizer05### NielDK resigning20:05
DocScrutinizer05### xes approved20:05
DocScrutinizer05### server moved to IPHH, mounted to rack, and base system incl XEN installed20:06
DocScrutinizer05### no progress on the "Nemein to fix *.maemo.org stuff" front :-/20:06
DocScrutinizer05I pretty much have said all I have to contribute, no need by me to elaborate on any of those topics20:08
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DocScrutinizer05qwazix: here?20:09
MentalistTraceurÂAnd I have arrived.20:09
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: hi!20:09
MentalistTraceurClient wasn't connecting at fkirst.20:09
DocScrutinizer05[2013-02-22 19:04:50] <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, let me start topic list:20:10
DocScrutinizer05[2013-02-22 19:04:58] <DocScrutinizer05> ## topics20:10
DocScrutinizer05[2013-02-22 19:05:17] <DocScrutinizer05> ### NielDK resigning20:10
DocScrutinizer05[2013-02-22 19:05:36] <DocScrutinizer05> ### xes approved20:10
DocScrutinizer05[2013-02-22 19:06:02] <DocScrutinizer05> ### server moved to IPHH, mounted to rack, and base system incl XEN installed20:10
DocScrutinizer05[2013-02-22 19:06:40] <DocScrutinizer05> ### no progress on the "Nemein to fix *.maemo.org stuff" front :-/20:10
DocScrutinizer05[2013-02-22 19:08:03] <DocScrutinizer05> I pretty much have said all I have to contribute, no need by me to elaborate on any of those topics20:10
MentalistTraceurAlso, apologies again for me not getting last week's minutes done. Got swamped with work this week.20:10
DocScrutinizer05don't make a science out of it, just post da shite somewhere20:10
qwazixsorry went to the fridge :)20:11
MentalistTraceur(Will have to attend wedding this weekend as well, so minutes draft will probably only get done Sunday.)20:11
DocScrutinizer05(ooops, my windows!!!)20:12
DocScrutinizer05better20:12
qwazixMentalistTraceur, did you see Niel's mail?20:13
Woody14619You all chat too much... FYI. :)  Takes forever to catch up on news.20:13
DocScrutinizer05any of you 2 other remaining guys got additional topics?20:13
MentalistTraceurOkay, I have nothing to add to agenda off the top of my head, so we can do whatever is needed to be said/done about the topics Doc mentioned.20:13
MentalistTraceurqwazix: Yes I did, and you're right, I didn't mind you replying on behalf of me as well.20:13
DocScrutinizer05I'm already done with all of that, unless some attendee has a question20:13
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DocScrutinizer05maybe I like to again thank Niel for all his dedication to maemo and wish him all the best20:14
qwazixMentalistTraceur, :nod:. I asked because it didn't arrive in my gmail account.20:14
MentalistTraceurSo DocScrutinizer05: you mean that the server has actually arrived and gotten mounted at IPHH?20:15
DocScrutinizer05and then there were three20:15
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, just let me skim again over topics20:15
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: exactly20:15
MentalistTraceurI.e. it's physically there and set up already?20:15
DocScrutinizer05yes20:15
MentalistTraceurGreat.20:15
MentalistTraceur:)20:15
DocScrutinizer05yeah your tech staff does a hell of a job all day long20:15
keriowho paid for the shipping, in the end?20:15
DocScrutinizer05Nokia20:16
kerioyay nokia20:16
DocScrutinizer05(many thanks for that!)20:16
MentalistTraceurBy my count the situation at present is we have 2 board and 3 council members left?20:16
keriowhat about the money that was raised for shipping and upgrading?20:16
DocScrutinizer05yes20:16
keriowas that sufficient for the upgrades?20:16
DocScrutinizer05kerio: I will keep it a few more weeks, in case we run into other needs, then send the whole amount to HiFo20:17
DocScrutinizer05or return to donors20:17
Woody14619Technically, Ivan must submit his resignation in writing.20:17
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: he did, in an email20:17
DocScrutinizer05if that counts20:17
DocScrutinizer05ooh, lists.maemo.org borked20:18
MentalistTraceurWoody14619: ditto what DocScrutinizer05 said.20:18
qwazixWoody14619, is it ok to continue as a 3 person council?20:18
Woody14619I think it requires a written letter.  Rob would know for sure.  Either way, once done, that triggers an election cycle for Board.20:18
DocScrutinizer05he even sent it to community-ML20:18
MentalistTraceurI think e-mails should count, although US is a bit backwards about what digital things count as real documents.20:19
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: eh?20:19
DocScrutinizer05WUT?20:19
Woody14619qwazix: Yes.  According to Maemo Community Council laws, you can continuge down to 0.  Foundation Council, min is 3.20:19
DocScrutinizer05we're still 320:19
qwazixWoody14619, thanks20:19
Woody14619As for Board, trigger is under 3.20:20
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: also "written letter" TO WHOM??20:20
Woody14619I need to look to see which version they adopted.  The latest version included a week for them to react to a resignation by appointing a new member.  But I'm not sure that was the one they approved.20:21
MentalistTraceurYeah, that's what I was wondering about - I had a vague inkling that a Board member dropping from a 3-member Board would force reelection, but I didn't remember for sure.20:21
kerioso... board reelection huh? nice20:21
MentalistTraceurDocScrutinizer05: To the rest of Board, presumably. But I still think e-mails should count.20:21
Woody14619MT: Yes, to the other members.20:21
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: nobody going to "appoint a new member" for *council*20:21
Woody14619No.. This is all for BOARD20:21
Woody14619Council is fine.20:22
DocScrutinizer05we're not talking about BOARD issues here20:22
DocScrutinizer05zhis is COUNCIL meeting20:22
DocScrutinizer05and Niel been council member, not board member20:22
Woody14619I get that.  But the discussion was on both.  And frankly, Council is the watchdog for Board, as much as Board is for Council.20:22
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, I think we should talk about Board too20:22
MentalistTraceurDocScrutinizer05: I brought up member counts for both board and council, it makes sense that woody would discuss Board issues as well.20:23
DocScrutinizer05we can do this, so put it on agenda20:23
qwazixWe must brace ourselves and ask what do we need for board to finish before election cycle starts20:23
DocScrutinizer05we frankyl got no infra to start any such election right now20:23
MentalistTraceurOkay, so, ##Board re-election triggered by Ivan's departure20:23
Woody14619Election cycle is one month min, so... not far off from when the elction for Council would start anyway.20:24
qwazixAlso, it's council that's obliged to trigger election20:24
qwazixaccording to ByLaws20:24
MentalistTraceur###Since council has the duty of presiding over elections, we need to figure out how soon should we act/how soon at the latest are we required to act20:25
Woody14619And yes, voting is semi-borked, but I've got the 90% solved now.  Voting machine is up again on m.o though it has no history.20:25
DocScrutinizer05I'm extremely reluctant to do this right now20:25
MentalistTraceurI agree, on that topic, that we should vote at least until migration is done.20:25
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, seconded20:25
DocScrutinizer05###SINCE: no valid command20:25
Woody14619Technically, Board should be calling for it's own.  Council should be proding it to act.20:25
MentalistTraceurs/should vote/should not vote on new board/20:26
qwazixI just feel we should discuss it, because people are going to ask20:26
Woody14619Council can force by calling a dual eleciton, but there's not mandated time frame to do that in.20:26
DocScrutinizer05aaah20:27
Woody14619The only mandated timeframe for elections is Council must announce one in the next month to 6 weeks for itself minimally, to be held in April.20:27
Woody14619(Nov + 6 = April)20:27
DocScrutinizer05###topic: starkwiz newly joined sysop volunteer in spe20:27
DocScrutinizer05welcome starkwiz!20:27
Woody14619Yay! :)20:27
keriowelcome!20:28
starkwizHi everyone, thanks :)20:28
DocScrutinizer05as usual it will take some time to integrate him into the team20:29
DocScrutinizer05he's lingering around until that happens, contributing with his valuable advice and contributions20:29
starkwiz:)20:29
DocScrutinizer05while we're at it: xes got officially approved as co-sysop under warfare20:30
DocScrutinizer05by both council AND BOARD!20:30
kerioOMG20:30
DocScrutinizer05though the latter preliminary20:30
kerioi didn't even know board approved warfare20:30
kerioxes: yay20:30
DocScrutinizer05warfare got officially approved20:30
DocScrutinizer05also merlin1991 and Woody14619 got officially approved to their particular mainteiner jobs20:31
merlin1991I did?20:31
DocScrutinizer05(dang, that's cold outside. Closes windows)20:31
keriomerlin1991: congratulations!20:32
MentalistTraceur(Delayed) Welcome starkwiz. (Very delayed) So about the earlier point: I say we note to Board that they are supposed to do [whatever they're supposed to do by bylaws about having members < 3], and if after the migration is 'settled' they still haven't complied, we should (even if it's time to reelect council anyway) force a re-election of both bodies. If they've followed the bylaws ...20:32
MentalistTraceur... appropriately in that time, we just do our council elections as normal.20:32
DocScrutinizer05merlin1991: yep, see last board minutes20:32
MentalistTraceurCongrats merlin1991 and Woody14619.20:32
MentalistTraceurAlso welcome xes, I think, I haven't said yet.20:32
qwazixMentalistTraceur, would you be willing to take a seat in Board?20:33
Woody14619Status: Midguard still isn't running Karma moduels correctly, still looking into it.  But the cron stuff is up.  Working on updating voting booth to automate setting up elections and such.20:33
DocScrutinizer05I'm not that happy with dual seats in board *and* council20:33
MentalistTraceurqwazix: If that is what the public wants of me, yes.20:33
MentalistTraceurDocScrutinizer05: I think it helps keep communication going between both bodies, honestly.20:34
DocScrutinizer05I'd rather favor ivgalvez' suggestion of Woody for his successor20:34
qwazixMy recommendation is to find a well known community member and officially support him to take a seat in board20:34
Woody14619I don't take issue with a single person having dual status, but don't want to see more than that, esp in bodies near 3.20:34
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: I have a certain idea you're already more than loaded with your council tasks20:35
qwazixIf board accepts, we have avoided mid-term elections20:35
qwazixWoody14619, would you go for it?20:35
Woody14619Lol. :) Not sure I'll get approval from who's there now, but certainly would not object to it.  My busy time at work is pretty much past.20:36
DocScrutinizer05so I vote for supporting Woody for board20:36
keriowho would have to decide, in the end? the current board?20:37
DocScrutinizer05he's evry knowledgeable about the bylaws and stuff, and a active member of community, and we have pretty good contact to hhim20:37
DocScrutinizer05kerio: yes20:37
qwazixMentalistTraceur, I also prefer to keep you here exclusively and have Woody@Board20:37
Woody14619Worst case, an election cycle is started.  I'm pretty confident we can have stuff setup and running for at least an election by then.20:37
MentalistTraceurDocScrutinizer05: Yeah, on the "more than loaded" point, you're probably correct.20:37
Woody14619kerio:yes20:38
warfarehi everyone.20:38
qwazixhi warfare20:38
DocScrutinizer05hi pal!20:38
warfaremy ears are still humming after ~5 hours in the colo. ;)20:38
DocScrutinizer05warfare: xes got preliminary approval20:38
warfareyay!20:39
keriowarfare: the sound of happiness20:39
DocScrutinizer05so go ahead with whatever you guys do, keep me up to date though, please20:39
warfareSure.20:39
MentalistTraceurAt any rate, I'm fine with woody as council recommendation for Board replacement, but even if I wasn't, in a 3-person council, the two of your (qwazix' and DocScrutinizer05's) votes already count as council majority.20:39
DocScrutinizer05we probably want unanimous decisions on such stuff, eh?20:40
Woody14619FWIW: If I'm pulled, I'll be happy to be on Board.  If not, meh. :)  I'm not concerned either way.20:40
DocScrutinizer05that's a man's word20:41
DocScrutinizer05:-)20:41
kerio"Meh." - WOODY 201320:41
Woody14619What I am concerned about is getting Karma/voting back up in time for the next cycle, be that in 1 month or 3.20:41
DocScrutinizer05##note: unanimously decided to suggest Woody14619 as ivan's successor to board20:41
Woody14619Which is what I'll be focusing on this weekend.20:42
qwazixMentalistTraceur, if this recommendation comes from either me or DocScrutinizer05 it will look, ehm, weird. So if it's not too much to ask I'd like you to write that letter on behalf of all of us.20:42
DocScrutinizer05"we support Ivgalvez' sugestion of Woody14619 for his successor to seat in BoD"20:43
Woody14619Wierd how? :P  Gerbick suggesting me, now that would be wierd... :)20:43
qwazixWoody14619, you have to promise you'll keep coming to council meetings once in a while though20:43
MentalistTraceurlol@kerio. qwazix: sure thing. I'm often the 'mouthpiece' for formal council-to-board mail anyway, so it makes sense that I would do it.20:43
qwazix^^ that. And being reminded of that, A big THANK YOU for your work regarding the move20:44
DocScrutinizer05seems to me that's one of the jobs of council chair20:44
DocScrutinizer05and yes, thank you a lot for doing this tedious job20:45
MentalistTraceurWoody14619: Yeah, I should note my support for you is significantly influenced by the fact that you show up to many Council meetings.20:45
Woody14619qwazix: Have only missed a few since a month before my first election.20:45
MentalistTraceurDocScrutinizer05: Agreed.20:45
qwazixWoody14619, it was supposed to sound like half-joke that one but now that I read it again I didn't manage that20:46
Woody14619Anyway. :)  So... Niels is still out with the broken leg I take it?  I know a short while back the original Nokia employee who setup autobuilder was visiting.  Any chance we could talk him into poking it? :)20:47
qwazixMostly commenting on the fact that everybody who comes in contact with Board gets infected and becomes distant and remote20:47
MentalistTraceur(And no thanks necessary guys; I'm happy to be contributing in some way.)20:47
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: who would that be? (original nokia autobulder wizard)20:47
qwazixMentalistTraceur, please make sure that you mention that this recomendation comes for us because we want to avoid election.20:48
qwazixWe don't want to 'infiltrate' board.20:48
Woody14619Can't recall the handle, but will find it when I get to a system w/ a real keyboard.20:48
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: I don't think any such comment is needed. after all we just support ivgalvez' sugestion20:50
qwazixok, this looks like a good argument too ^20:51
qwazix(sidenote: that election thing has come up on tmo too and there's a small discussion there)20:52
MentalistTraceurAs usual, I'll send out a draft of recommendation e-mail to council only first, so we can iron out exact wording that way.20:52
Woody14619I think I still have an e-mail from him directly, will chat with him.  He may not be up for it, but... you never know.20:52
DocScrutinizer05I'm quite unhappy with Nemein's dedication to fixing broken maemo stuff. Since "we" need to do something about it "officially" I'd like to ask all users in here to list all known showstoppers in *.maemo.org that need urgent fixing20:53
DocScrutinizer05I'll send a mail to support@nemein.com about aggregated issues20:53
DocScrutinizer05CC board, CC Nokia20:54
DocScrutinizer05we can do the collecting-the-bits after the meeting right here20:55
qwazixI have two such bits20:55
DocScrutinizer05fine, but pelase after the meeting ended20:55
MentalistTraceurAlright, I'm fine with calling meeting over, then, if there's nothing else from anyone.20:56
* DocScrutinizer05 swears a lot20:56
DocScrutinizer05Hi everyone,20:57
DocScrutinizer05Rob just reminded me that the Board does in fact have to vote on all SysAdmin level volunteers... While the Council is free to appoint repo and community maintainers, the position of SysAdmin hold quite a lot more responsibility.20:57
DocScrutinizer05For this reason, I am retracting my last email... The Board, once we choose a new member, will vote on the appointment of xes.20:57
DocScrutinizer05Thanks... Sorry for any confusion...20:57
DocScrutinizer05Tim20:57
* DocScrutinizer05 headdesks20:57
qwazix!@#$%20:58
* DocScrutinizer05 decides to ignore this mail20:58
qwazixWhat mail?20:58
Woody14619.oO("Opps, we already gave him the password?")20:58
MentalistTraceur*Sigh*20:58
DocScrutinizer05warfare: well, so you have to keep your supervision close and permissions tight until a few more weeks went by20:59
Woody14619.oO("One from the religious cast, one from the warrior class, and one from the admin class?")21:00
warfareWill do.21:00
* DocScrutinizer05 honestly wonders if BoD thinks all the world stops spinning til they got a operational state again21:00
qwazix.oO("And one gone mad")21:00
qwazix.oO("that's me")21:01
Woody14619Lol.  K.  Off to work on the code that pays the bills, so I can work more on the code that doesn't later. :)21:01
MentalistTraceurxes was going to have root access to the entire infra, yes?21:01
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: seeya21:01
DocScrutinizer05MentalistTraceur: that been the plan21:02
DocScrutinizer05though under close supervision of warfare21:02
DocScrutinizer05warfare asked for that21:03
MentalistTraceur*Nod* Okay. I can kinda understand that resistence on the Board's end then. Annoying because of their inconsistent meetings, but I can see where they are coming from, even if I don't fully agree with how they approach the issue of volunteer approval.21:04
DocScrutinizer05NB that on the new servers there's NO maemo stuff yet, so we're free to grant whatever access we want, to whomever we want21:04
DocScrutinizer05since you can't ruin the hardware even when malicious intentions21:05
DocScrutinizer05what *I* can't get over is their concept to agree everything in an official meeting only21:06
DocScrutinizer05THE HECK they are max 3 guys!21:06
MentalistTraceurYeah, that's what I have an issue with.21:07
DocScrutinizer05Oh hi Tim, Hi Rob. Let's call it an official meeting!21:07
DocScrutinizer05W*T*F?!21:08
Woody14619Legal reasons....  Corporation vs volunteer group.21:08
MentalistTraceurI don't mind them formalizing the process, but a quick discussion by e-mail should be just as acceptable as a formal meeting if everyone's in agreement.21:08
DocScrutinizer05I don't freely give a shit about formal issues, as long as they know anyway what they will decide in 3 weeks since they already talked about it21:09
Woody14619Irony:  PLaying strict by the rules for things like meetings, but not on other topics (elections, resignations, etc.)21:10
Woody14619But to be fair: If someone dislikes what you do, there's little they can do about it but elect you out next cycle.21:10
Woody14619Borad can technically be sued, as they're a legal entity.  As can Board members.21:11
MentalistTraceurThat's why I firmly believe in unconditional recall powers for the populace in any democratic/election-using society.21:11
DocScrutinizer05I'll evetually consider sueing them for procrastinating maemo to death21:12
MentalistTraceurI don't think I bothered suggesting it for HiFo bylaws because I thought it was too much me shoving my idealism somewhere where it wasn't too needed.21:12
MentalistTraceurBut it would probably have been useful to have.21:12
qwazixAs much as I agree with the above, there's no use21:13
qwazixlet's move on21:13
MentalistTraceurI.e. a popular vote instigated by the community should be at any time enough to remove an elected member from their position.21:13
MentalistTraceur*Shrug* like I said for my part earlier: I'm happy to call meeting over if no one else has anything to add.21:14
MentalistTraceurNow I'm just rambling.21:14
DocScrutinizer05honestly if it was "just for the fun of playing power games" (and not about keeping maemo alive, something of minor importance to BoD, since they got greater "missions"), i'd clearly opt for immediate BIg BANG21:14
qwazixMentalistTraceur, this is kinda there, with council being able to start elections for both bodies21:14
Woody14619Which is why I put it in there. ;)21:15
Woody14619Despite several attempts by others to remove it...  Better of two evils.21:15
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: thanks for that!21:15
MentalistTraceurqwazix: Yes, which iirc I suggested to begin with in the thread discussing it, as one of the optional solutions to the problem I was pointing out in that post that the Board couldn't be forced into reelections.21:16
Woody14619With a popular recall, you need to have a % of people calling for it.  What's that % here?  Of the 8K tmo users, or the 5K maemo accounts, or of the "Active" users...21:16
qwazixDocScrutinizer05, if it wasn't for keeping maemo alive I would've been long gone (and maybe cause a shitstorm with it). I would very much love to work on fennec than sending <swearword> mails to OSUOSL21:16
* DocScrutinizer05 stares at *THE* BIG RED BUTTON21:16
MentalistTraceurBut still, it's different, and not mutually exclusive from, recall.21:16
qwazixWoody14619, we could solve that with a % of last election ballots21:17
MentalistTraceurWoody14619: Another implementation issue, yes, but not necessarily an insurmountable one, though that was one of the reasons that I didn't bother suggesting it back when bylaws were under review.21:17
Woody14619Assuming we can keep a history of that now.. yes.  Saddly, looks like that data from last cycle is now gone.21:17
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: OUCH21:18
DocScrutinizer05how much votes we had on board elections? 256?21:18
DocScrutinizer05many*21:18
Woody14619.oO(It could encourage people to vote... just saying. ;)21:18
MentalistTraceurAnyway, objections to calling meeting officially over?21:19
DocScrutinizer05I bet some * user would be able to talk more than 200 tmo lusers into everything he wants21:19
Woody14619No, ~250 for Council, ~170 for Board.  Even with the mail, some didn't opt to vote on Board.21:19
Woody14619doc: true, but then how many of them voted in the last cycle?  That's what would matter. ;)21:20
DocScrutinizer05we have no means to find out who voted21:20
qwazixWoody14619, how would you know if they voted?21:20
DocScrutinizer05votes a secret21:20
qwazixOn the other hand they could use the old anonymous token to get into new vote21:21
Woody14619Tokens.  Votes are secret, but it can be determined who voted in the last election by left over tokens.21:21
* MentalistTraceur wants water proof body for N900.21:21
DocScrutinizer05honestly, I'm in a mood to step back from council if we talk about that any longer21:21
qwazix(though who keeps token long after election)21:21
qwazixyeah, let's stop it21:21
MentalistTraceur(Have to walk thugh rain right now)21:21
Woody14619qwzix: the database. :)21:22
qwazixWoody14619, wouldn't that need the voter to provide his old token to be given admittance?21:22
* DocScrutinizer05 afk21:22
Woody14619No, actually.  In fact, once you vote, your token is destroyed.21:22
Woody14619But what's left in the database is the pile of old tokens that were NOT used.21:23
qwazixanyway, I'm sure there is a technical way to solve this21:23
MentalistTraceurSo, final call for objections to formally wrapping up meeting? We're kinda on general chatting as of 15+ minutes ago.21:23
qwazixend it21:23
Woody14619yup.21:23
MentalistTraceurWell, not general chatting, but on what I'd say isn't /meeting/ topics per se.21:24
Woody14619That's part of what makes your vote anonymous is that your token is the only think linking you to your vote.21:24
MentalistTraceur*Bangs gavel* Meeting adjourned.21:24
Woody14619And once you cast the vote, the token is destroyed, thus breaking any link or way of tracking one to the other.21:24
Woody14619But the pile of left over tokens each reference back to the person that didn't use their token to cast a vote.21:25
qwazixwe could keep a seperate list of tokens just of who voted with no link to what he voted21:25
MentalistTraceurI'm going to be afk for a while now, but will hopefully remain connected to irc.21:25
qwazixand instruct users to keep them21:26
Woody14619So one could easily extract a list from that of whom was elegable and subtract who didn't vote, leaving a list of who DID vote.21:26
qwazixIf we want to instigate a removal of authority, those who have tokens are allowed to cast a disbelief vote21:26
qwazix(Anyway, in my understanding of democracy as a system everybody is obliged to vote so while voting is anonymous, who voted is not secret info)21:27
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: the voting system been carefully designed to avoid such nonsense21:27
qwazixFun trivia: the original meaning of the word idiot is one who doesn't care about public affairs :)21:28
DocScrutinizer05Woody14619: no you can't since you don't have the basic data of that point in time anymore, of whom qualified for being eligable to vote and who didn't21:28
Woody14619Yes, you do...21:29
Woody14619The electorate table is quite static.21:29
DocScrutinizer05you don't, karma of that time is gone21:29
DocScrutinizer05oooh21:29
Woody14619Not true.  It's stored in the electorate table.21:29
DocScrutinizer05well, whatever, the whole idea is BS21:29
Woody14619So electorate table with an inverted join on the token table = people who voted last cycle. :)21:30
DocScrutinizer05"hey you 150 guys, you were keen enough to vote a 5 months ago. Now we have to ask you if you would reconsider"21:30
Woody14619You can't tell who voted for what still though, unless you can get a time-stamp for each row drop.21:30
DocScrutinizer05*COUGHULLSHICOUGH*21:31
Woody14619I agree. :)21:31
qwazix###point for mail to nemein support: repo not synced with maemo.org/downloads (may be related to hash sum error)21:31
qwazix###point for mail to nemein support: maemo SDK not installable unless one does it manually (5h process)21:32
Woody14619hash sum issues were semi-common before migration.  Neils was re-indexing almost monthly when I was Council due to problems.21:32
Woody14619It was only affecting a few packages at a time though.  Not en-mass like it's happening now.21:33
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: I can't send it like this. I need proper URLs and "how to reproduce" and what exactly is suspected to be broken21:33
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: this way it's not accountable to a particular responsible maintainer, heck not even to a subsystem21:34
qwazixfirst point, http://maemo.org/downloads last package is from 27-1121:35
DocScrutinizer05that URL doesn't even exist for me, it redirects21:35
DocScrutinizer05and on the redirected page there's no "last package"21:35
qwazixhttp://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ is the correct link, my browser took ages to load21:36
DocScrutinizer05there's "Fresh" list if you mean that, on http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/21:36
qwazixyes that one has latest packages, and it's stuck at InfoZip since before migration21:36
DocScrutinizer05now if you pint me to a repo pkg that's supposed to show up there but doesn't, we have a case21:37
DocScrutinizer05point*21:37
qwazixmy app, rawcam, approved for extras after that date (lemme find link)21:37
qwazixhttp://maemo.org/packages/view/rawcam/21:38
qwazixpromoted 2012-12-28 10:5521:38
qwazixand never made it to maemo downloads21:38
qwazixAbout second point, due to scratchbox.org being dead, the maemo 5 sdk scripts don't work so it has to be done manually, downloading all scratchbox packages from skeiron and dpkg-ing them. I don't have any more info.21:42
DocScrutinizer05qwazix: so it's not repo but even the package interface has new version, just it doesn't show up in fronpage synthesized list "Fresh"?21:42
qwazixYes, package is on extras, package interface is up to date, midgard isn't21:43
DocScrutinizer05package interface *is* midgard afaik21:43
qwazixs/midgard/downloads/21:43
DocScrutinizer05please don't imply any details we're not sure about21:43
qwazixIt's not just the "fresh" list21:44
qwazixit's the whole product page that's missing21:44
qwazixthe equivalent of http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/zip/ is missing,21:45
qwazixAlso the Extras Downloads counter is stuck "downloads served for Maemo 5 (Last update: 2012-12-19 12:30)"21:46
DocScrutinizer05would you please add a ticket at roundup: "for apckage <URL> the following pages don't show correct up-to-date data: http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ "Fresh", <URL2> <detail2>..."21:46
qwazixok21:46
MentalistTraceurOkay, I'm back.21:48
DocScrutinizer05I guess it's ok to tag it "midgard"21:48
DocScrutinizer05(keywords)21:48
MentalistTraceurQuick note @ recall and stuff - honestly, I think if implemented, it need not be done on a 'who voted last election' basis. A member who didn't or couldn't vote in an election isn't automatically less fit to see the ethical need for an elected member's recall.21:49
DocScrutinizer05indeed, that's why i called the whole idea BS21:50
MentalistTraceurUltimately recall should be a thing that comes to bear against egregiously bad elected officials, and egregious bad-ness is something a significant chunk of the entire electorate can usually agree on.21:51
* DocScrutinizer05 waves21:51
MentalistTraceurSo it wouldn't necessarily have any bearing on just mildly-disliked officials. *Shrug*21:52
MentalistTraceurDocScrutinizer05: You leaving?21:52
MentalistTraceur(Or is that wave meaning something else?)21:52
qwazixbug posted21:54
qwazixMentalistTraceur, it's just that it's hard to know when to recall21:58
qwazixit's really easy to gather more than the people that bothered to vote, with the low numbers we have21:58
MentalistTraceurqwazix: Well, I would make recall need a majority of all 'active' community members who are eligible to vote, where 'active' status is evaluated by activity by either one's *maemo.org account, talk.maemo.org account, activity (other than idling) from a registered irc nick asociated with the user (though we don't have the infrastructure to detect that right now - I'm talking more about ...22:02
MentalistTraceur... 'ideally' here),22:02
qwazix:nod:22:03
qwazixbattery low, got to go. Bye!22:05
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Woody14619MentalistTraceur: Problem really is about finding out what part is "active".  Clearly, those who voted last time are active.... they voted. :)22:10
Woody14619But I get the point on the rest of it.22:10
DocScrutinizer05who's going to *do* something about what we discuss here?22:11
DocScrutinizer05I completely missed qwazix' 2nd BUG22:11
DocScrutinizer05I guess when I can't get a comprehensive list of what to fix in maemo RIGHT NOW, we don't need to discuss hypothetical changes to HiFo byloaws22:12
Woody14619Well, I'm personally working on the voting machine, to add the ability for Council/Board to add/start elections/referendums without bugging others.22:12
Woody14619I also need to add to the list:  Karma computations are still not happneing quite right.  Looks like the custom plugins are not loaded properly?  Or at the very least are not working as they should.22:13
Woody14619But then I'm the one working on that, so. ;)22:13
DocScrutinizer05you've all been warned. When eventually (in 6 days?) Nemein drops that shit on our feet and leaves the room, then I'll say "I warned you, didn't I?"22:13
DocScrutinizer05then pelase don't come to me and start whining about "XY login doesn't work!" or "autobuilder is down!" or whatever22:15
DocScrutinizer05I CANNOT check every detail of maemo infra for proper function, even if I tried22:16
MentalistTraceurWoody14619: After some googling, it seems that an e-mail may or may not count as 'in-writing' notification.22:36
Woody14619Like I said, Rob would be the best to get advice for that on.  Reguardless, action is needed on Boards part one way or the other.22:37
MentalistTraceurI.e. I'd have to dig through Pennsylvania statues and case-law to determine the answer more precisely than 'might count'. So you're probably right about 'in writing' being 'physical letter'.22:37
Woody14619I can tell you for sure: physical letter always wins.22:38
DocScrutinizer05I don't see how council is under Pennsylvania laws by any means22:41
DocScrutinizer05if it were, I'd outright refuse to be part of it22:41
Woody14619Doc: Nobody is talking about Council.22:42
DocScrutinizer05OMFG22:42
Woody14619This is a discussion about Ivan's resignation of Board.22:42
DocScrutinizer05which happens to be one week back22:42
Woody14619For Council, his resignation on IRC, or TMO, or via e-mail all was find an well.22:42
Woody14619Yes... I get that.22:43
Woody14619But it's still not a resolved issue.22:43
DocScrutinizer05so you have no better place and/or better time to discuss this than particularly council meeting?22:43
Woody14619Council meeting ended some time ago.  And it was brough up, in a proper contex mind you, during that meeting.22:44
DocScrutinizer05particularly when we had a council-only resign today22:44
Woody14619Where would you prefer I bring it up?22:44
Woody14619On TMO?22:45
Woody14619Maybe make a wiki page?22:45
DocScrutinizer05my call for listing BUGS been brought up in a similar valid manner, earlier during same meeting22:45
Woody14619Yes... and it's valid and important.22:45
Woody14619And people are adding bugs.22:45
DocScrutinizer05and forgotten22:45
DocScrutinizer05BS, nobody does22:45
Woody14619I have a few to add myself.22:45
DocScrutinizer05I seriously have to warn you to abuse roundup, it's not meant to get used by 'normal' users22:46
DocScrutinizer05only tech staff (which you qualify for)22:46
DocScrutinizer05that's why I suggested to collect bug reports in this channel, right after meeting22:47
Woody14619qwazix entered one while you were bitching that nobody wasn entering any...  FYI22:47
DocScrutinizer05highly efficiently neutered by this bylaws gossip22:47
Woody14619And the ones I have to put in require a little info gathering that I can't do right at this second.22:47
Woody14619So I should stop doing anything until I can enter bugs?22:48
Woody14619Like Council should stop doing anything until Board resolves itself?22:48
DocScrutinizer05would you plwease bother reading what i wrote?22:49
Woody14619I dropped a status here and in the admin channel, at your request.  And yes, I need to enter the bugs.22:49
DocScrutinizer05ok, you're free to do this bug gathering any way you think might work, but don't blame *me* I hadn't asked for *users* to contribute22:50
DocScrutinizer05mind you, it's NOT about *your* bugs, you are supposed to enter them in roundup anyway, as maintainer22:50
Woody14619I read what you wrote.  You're pissed off because people didn't drop everything to fill in bug reports on the instant.  I get that it's important, and yes, we need to get that done ASAP.  But I can't do that until after work, for a number of reasons.22:51
Woody14619And yes... I know it's not just my bugs...22:51
DocScrutinizer05since this been a public meeting, the call was for lurking 'normal' users22:51
DocScrutinizer05I don't want to see 27 tickets in roundup: "autobuilder not working",  "updating packages doesn't work",  "builder doesn't print success notification",  "dropping stuff to drop doesn't do anything"22:54
DocScrutinizer05that's why I asked for a brainstorming session here22:54
DocScrutinizer05again, it's NOT about *your* bugs22:54
Woody14619which is great.  But if they were lurking, they've not put ideas in yet.  Making sure MentalistTraceur puts this as a bullet point in the minutes and gets them out ASAP would be best.  Maybe even dropping a mail on Jaffa to include it in MWKN, and/or revisiting the topic in tmo.22:56
DocScrutinizer05HAHA22:56
Woody14619Bitching that we're trying to also discuss or accomplish something besides this one topic seems a bit myopic.22:56
DocScrutinizer05we're in *severe* pressure on that22:57
DocScrutinizer05even waiting for MWKN is a delusional plan22:57
Woody14619I GET THAT.22:57
DocScrutinizer05and maybe you noticed when the last meeting minutes came out22:57
* DocScrutinizer05 shrugs, turns around and leaves, pushing this mail to Nemein to sometimes mid of next week22:58
DocScrutinizer05wait, we might already own maemo.org at that time, so no more use to bitch at Nemein about it22:59
DocScrutinizer05whatever, I really can't care about *everything*23:00
DocScrutinizer05so if this one goes awry, attribute it to the "one man can only do what one man can do" rule23:00
Woody14619Which is fine.  I get what you want.  You want someone to add unique items that are borked still to the list.  I GET THAT.  Personally, I can not do that RIGHT THIS SECOND.  I CAN discuss other items.  Yelling at others to not do other things, and do only the one thing you want done DOESN'T accomplish your goal.  It instead prevents other work for getting done, because they can't do the one thing you're super-focused on.23:02
Woody14619Since I'm clearly not usefull until I can work on this one topic... I'll fix your worry that I'll distract others.23:03
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DocScrutinizer05NO, I do NOT want random people adding stuff to roundup!!!23:03
DocScrutinizer05please get THAT!23:04
DocScrutinizer05regarding distracting others, damage done23:05
DocScrutinizer05my own fault, probably I should have insisted in collecting every chan user's comments DURING meeting, not directls _after_ official meeting23:06
keriohe's dead, jim23:06
DocScrutinizer05whatever, I'm thru with it23:06
DocScrutinizer05but then again, if the one who's supposed to keep discussion on topic doesn't do this but rather actively distrats from what's been on the schedule, what can I do23:08
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MentalistTraceurCan someone point me to where Ivan stated that he recommended Woody as his replacement, btw?23:41
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DocScrutinizer05tmo iirc23:59

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