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| MentalistTraceur | Alright, greetings all. | 19:59 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi | 20:00 |
| MentalistTraceur | Oh hey, our user names are the same length. | 20:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehe | 20:00 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, qwazix, you there? | 20:00 |
| qwazix | hi, I'll be with you in a min | 20:02 |
| MentalistTraceur | Alright, cool. | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | time to prepare a coffe for me | 20:02 |
| *** ivgalvez has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:03 | |
| MentalistTraceur | I've already prepared all the relevant fluids for this meeting (though since I'm always connected with one of my N900s for these, I can always get more without going afk. So, I believe the appropriate thing to say here is "mwa-ha-ha-ha" or somesuch.) | 20:04 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ahem, greetings ivgalvez. | 20:04 |
| ivgalvez | hi | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, milk frozen | 20:04 |
| MentalistTraceur | We're just waiting for qwazix to indicate readiness to begin and for Doc to make his coffee, and then we shall begin. | 20:05 |
| qwazix | I'm here, apologize for the delay | 20:05 |
| qwazix | (food is safe in the oven :) ) | 20:05 |
| MentalistTraceur | No problem, I'm used to IRC meetings where the actual matter at hand doesn't get discussed until 30+ minutes after scheduled starting time... | 20:06 |
| MentalistTraceur | (Not previous Council meetings, obviously, I mean other meetings elsewhere) | 20:07 |
| qwazix | hehe, it's easy to drift away. What is there to discuss? | 20:07 |
| MentalistTraceur | Anyway, who has what for the agenda? | 20:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not blocking | 20:07 |
| qwazix | I have the dead end with the CC awards | 20:07 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 ponders hot potatoes | 20:08 | |
| MentalistTraceur | *Bangs Gavel* Meeting officially in session, or something. Commencing the "figure out if there's anything to discuss" stage. | 20:08 |
| qwazix | Nobody has anything else? | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | topics: coding Competition devices absolute deadend from Nokia's side | 20:10 |
| qwazix | Anything tmo related? | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | topics: maemo infra migration absolute deadend from Nokia's side | 20:10 |
| MentalistTraceur | qwazix: did the board also try their contacts? You asked ivgalvez to see if he could reach anyone? | 20:10 |
| MentalistTraceur | ..iirc of course. | 20:10 |
| qwazix | ivgalvez reported no reply and that he doesn't have any more contacts | 20:11 |
| ivgalvez | I have just discovered a new Nokia contact | 20:11 |
| ivgalvez | but no clue if it would be useful | 20:11 |
| * qwazix sighs with semi-relief | 20:11 | |
| MentalistTraceur | Also, I actually have things to agenda...ize, for once. I mentioned this on the forum, so since ivgalvez is here, I might as well bring it up here: thoughts on the idea of the Hildon Foundation regularly reporting to the community how much money was made, how much was spent on what, and how much is in reserve? | 20:11 |
| ivgalvez | I will retry anyway | 20:11 |
| qwazix | Someone on tmo suggested sending a mail to Elop | 20:12 |
| qwazix | if nothing else works maybe? | 20:12 |
| ivgalvez | MentalistTraceur, zejothka is already reporting the progress in donations via paypal | 20:12 |
| MentalistTraceur | Ooo, yay, another CC lead. (Maybe we'll get those CC devices delivered sometime within our term after all) | 20:12 |
| ivgalvez | and we have just set up a bank account | 20:12 |
| ivgalvez | all donations status will be published through hildonfoundation.org | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | thumbs up | 20:14 |
| ivgalvez | now we haven't spent any money yet, we need to buy the vBulletin licence | 20:14 |
| ivgalvez | and then most of expenses will go for TMO hosting | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somebody (thedead1440?) mentioned you can get 40% off vBul licence with coupons or sth | 20:14 |
| qwazix | I'll make a banner for donations to post up on tmo. I can do an iframe with a bar with amount and goal if there's somewhere we can pull the data from. | 20:14 |
| ivgalvez | as maemo.org migration is going through a different way atm | 20:14 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05: really? I have missed that! | 20:15 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, please comment directly with zejothka | 20:15 |
| MentalistTraceur | *Nod* All good things - I'm just wondering if there could be a monthly (for example) report published to the community at large from the board, saying how much money went where each month, and what the aftermath financially was for HF for that month. | 20:15 |
| qwazix | ivgalvez, ok | 20:16 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, +1 | 20:16 |
| ivgalvez | MentalistTraceur +1 | 20:16 |
| ivgalvez | will comment that | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: there seems to be a large misconception regarding hosting. Hosting is friggin 'cheap' (like 50EUR/month for a really powerful server with no data traffic limit[!]), it's the administration that costs money | 20:16 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, I meant that most of our incoming expenses (that doesn't mean to be too much) will go for TMO hsoting | 20:17 |
| qwazix | I still feel that a 50?/m server will not be enough for tmo | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: why is that? | 20:17 |
| ivgalvez | becuase for maemo.org we don't need to pay hosting yet | 20:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: board already gave up on hosting maemo.org? | 20:18 |
| ivgalvez | nope | 20:18 |
| ivgalvez | Nokia will fund for two months hosting at Nemein | 20:18 |
| ivgalvez | sop we won't have expenses for that during the next two months | 20:19 |
| ivgalvez | only for TMO | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, fine. and after that time we (you/board) are bankrupt within one month or less, when *you* have to pay for that hosting | 20:19 |
| ivgalvez | that's a different question | 20:19 |
| ivgalvez | obviously we won't go that way | 20:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's a very pressing question, since it's *now* that Nemein is buying and setting up that "rolls royce" | 20:20 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05: we are worknig on that | 20:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and it seems Nokia is not really willing to give the full control over the servers to board, rather they like to keep nemein in command | 20:21 |
| ivgalvez | but right now it's more pressing that we have a volunteer for vBulletin and forums administration (chemist) but none for sysadmin | 20:21 |
| ivgalvez | to start the migration we need a sysadmin | 20:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the server hw Nokia supposedly advised Nemein to buy costs 2500...10000EUR *per* *server* | 20:22 |
| qwazix | enough to host maemo.org for years | 20:23 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05: we'll see | 20:23 |
| MentalistTraceur | Side-question: what about the Maemo trademark(s?); does the HF currently hope to get any rights to use them beyond the hosting of the infrastructre. | 20:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if board would get that money from Nokia instead, you could affor to rent several dedicated servers and pay a professional admin for a whole year | 20:23 |
| ivgalvez | that's being worked out with Nokia legal department | 20:23 |
| ivgalvez | that would take time | 20:24 |
| ivgalvez | but in the meantime we have permission to use it | 20:24 |
| MentalistTraceur | s/infrastructre./infrastructure?/ | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you'll have to face the fact that you need a professional admin anyway. I think we already agreed on that | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Nokia thinks Nemein will do this role | 20:25 |
| ivgalvez | right now, we need a sysadmin for TMO migration and adminstration, which is unrelated to Nemein and maemo.org | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but both Nokia and Nemein think like big business, not like community on starving | 20:25 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, that! | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: absolutely not, it's totally related | 20:26 |
| ivgalvez | if we need to add that cost to hosting, then our expenses on TMO will go beyond thos 50 bucks you were talking about | 20:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's what I'm talking about | 20:26 |
| MentalistTraceur | Oh, qwazix, when this discussion thread is over, did you want to re-bring-up the Nexus 7 now that we have a full (minus the always absent member) council, unlike last meeting when it was just us two? | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | integrate tmo into general maemo.org infra, and get ONE admin to do the heavy lifting | 20:27 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, right now it's just the opposite | 20:27 |
| ivgalvez | first we move TMO | 20:27 |
| qwazix | MentalistTraceur, I'd like that, but with all that money being gathered I don't know if it's good to confuse people with various goals, but I'd like to discuss it for the future anyway | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no, first you get a server. Either you get that server in a size and at a location where you can use it for general maemo.org infra later, or you're screwed | 20:28 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, what's the difference if tmo server is in the US and MO server in europe? | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also you don't want to find a professional admin now for tmo, and another one later for maemo.org | 20:29 |
| qwazix | there will be little synergy anyway | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: how is there little synergy when all those services run on one dedicated server in VM? | 20:30 |
| qwazix | I don't think that a 50buck server can even hold tmo, let alone add a vm for other services | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even if they run on 2 or 3 servers on same hoster, you still have synergy | 20:30 |
| qwazix | We also don't want tmo to drag down other things with it | 20:31 |
| MentalistTraceur | I think, personally, right now the goal should be "switch everything to our control and keep it working" first and foremost, and then once that's done, we can figure out how to rearrange the infra (merge what's hosted where, etc). I agree that in the long term, it of course would be better to put tmo on the same servers as everything else - but in the time we have left, do we have the time to try to integrate t | 20:31 |
| MentalistTraceur | hem currently? | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: wut? a 32GB RAM octocore 2TB storage server can't hold tmo? | 20:31 |
| qwazix | especially the autobuilder which if crashes can very well end up in an inconsistent state | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: (drag down) that's why you run stuff in VMs | 20:32 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, even if the cpu is enough, (which I feel is barely), we will also have a bandwidth problem | 20:32 |
| Stskeeps | fwiw, we run mer and nasty builds at 600 eur/month | 20:32 |
| Stskeeps | and lots of spare bw | 20:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: nonsense | 20:32 |
| ivgalvez | MentalistTraceur, that's right | 20:33 |
| qwazix | Maybe. I'm not so experienced, I just run one of those servers (last year's model, 12gb ram and 4core) and it chokes at about 1000 concurrent users | 20:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: (which I feel is barely) what do you need to feel CPU is enough? a cray? | 20:33 |
| qwazix | very light news site | 20:33 |
| ivgalvez | Stskeeps, which is your hosting provider? | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | hetzner | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hetzner | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what else | 20:34 |
| qwazix | ofc we can try and see, and load balance to another one if it's not ok... | 20:34 |
| ivgalvez | do they admin the servers? | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bwahaha | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, for 1000/month | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you don't get managed server where you could install e.g. autobuilder | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they only admin your server when it's their standard setup | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | we have a band of volunteers, and hw is managed by them, very stable | 20:35 |
| Stskeeps | so if stuff breaks they replace | 20:36 |
| ivgalvez | Stskeeps, thanks | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hw is of course managed by hetzner, but not when you book colocaqtion | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | with colocation (the shite Nokia offers) *we* drive there and replace stuff | 20:36 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, can we focus? | 20:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the focus is: FIRST get a professional designing the whole shit, since *none* of us has a clue really | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | SECOND get ONE server | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | third move tmo | 20:38 |
| qwazix | totally agree | 20:39 |
| qwazix | how much would a professional ask for such consultancy? | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | right now Nemein is deciding on design, and they have no limit whatsoever on what it might cost | 20:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 4 digits | 20:40 |
| ivgalvez | TMO migration cannot be linked with the rest of maemo.org at this moment | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | per month, initially | 20:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: why? | 20:40 |
| MentalistTraceur | I would say first we need to get everything running on interim solutions for the next few months, which would give us enough time to actually do the things you mentioned. | 20:41 |
| MentalistTraceur | Am I correct in having understood that we can't move the TMO database out of the US jurisdiction without getting into data/privacy/whatever laws mess? | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's nonsense | 20:41 |
| MentalistTraceur | Which part? | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | everybody 'moves tmo out of US' every day, by simply reading the web pages it displays | 20:41 |
| ivgalvez | because services are administrated by Nemein at Logica servers and first they need to migrate from there, then design a final solution for the whole infrastructure that we could afford | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if there's *any* privacy data in this whole thing, DROP IT! | 20:42 |
| ivgalvez | so please, focusing in the initial issue to be fixed, which is TMO migration | 20:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | Doc, you know as well as I do that the technological realities of data transfer/storage, and the legalities there-of, are often incongruent. | 20:42 |
| ivgalvez | we need either to hire a sysadmin with the hosting provider or a volunteer | 20:42 |
| qwazix | ivgalvez, why move things twice and not use the paid moving service to move wherever we want? | 20:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, then I'm out of business, since that's insane concept | 20:42 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, can you ellaborate? | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: +1 | 20:43 |
| qwazix | you just said that services must migrate from logica to nemein and then to infra we can afford | 20:44 |
| qwazix | if I understood correctly that's two moves | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I give up, maybe qwazix can explain stuff so it makes sense to others. I obviously can't | 20:44 |
| qwazix | from which we'll pay only the second one? | 20:44 |
| qwazix | (first is paid by nokia) | 20:44 |
| ivgalvez | first movement is to get things out from Logica, that's a must or everything goes down | 20:45 |
| qwazix | why not use that paid 'service' to move to our infra instead of to nemein | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 20:45 |
| qwazix | but we can buy 10 hetzner servers today with the money we've got | 20:45 |
| qwazix | and consolidate in the coming months | 20:46 |
| qwazix | s/buy/rent/ | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 20:46 |
| ivgalvez | Nokia pays the bills they want | 20:46 |
| qwazix | and move out directly to hetzner | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: because they already noticed board has not the faintest clue, so they told Nemein to get stuff done | 20:47 |
| qwazix | I don't know what to say... | 20:47 |
| ivgalvez | current infra cannot be move to a different place in just two weeks | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: sorry, no offense intended | 20:48 |
| ivgalvez | that's what we are told | 20:48 |
| ivgalvez | so first is to move current infra out of Logica | 20:48 |
| ivgalvez | then trim down the nonsense that we are using | 20:48 |
| ivgalvez | which atm is brutally expensive | 20:48 |
| ivgalvez | Nokia will pay for that process | 20:49 |
| qwazix | ehm, that doesn't make sense | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | because of bloated design done by Nokia and Nemein it's expensive | 20:49 |
| ivgalvez | indeed | 20:49 |
| qwazix | if it can't move in 2wks how it's gonna move out of logica | 20:49 |
| ivgalvez | now a proper design is being worked by Nemin | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and NO, nokia obviously is NOT paying for downsizing | 20:49 |
| ivgalvez | honestly we are going nowhere with this discussion | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and as explained above Nemein has not the faintest interest in doing a proper design | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | by any board's POV of "proper" | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep, we're obviously going nowhere since no arguments however benevolent are going thru | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's why I'm out again | 20:51 |
| qwazix | I still can't understand why it's easier to move to Nemein than anywhere else | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: it isn't | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's just Nokia has a contract with Nemein already | 20:52 |
| ivgalvez | I don't mean that it's easier. Nemein is the only one authorised to access Logia servers for that purpose, and Nokia has other services running in the same machines | 20:52 |
| qwazix | now that is something that makes sense | 20:52 |
| ivgalvez | so all Nokia and Maemo stuff has to be retired from Logica | 20:53 |
| qwazix | q: Can't nemein be paid to transfer things to servers we designate | 20:53 |
| qwazix | ? | 20:53 |
| ivgalvez | that could be a solution | 20:53 |
| qwazix | as many as they want | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so Nemein can upload those friggin 2TB total storage of those servers to $anywhere | 20:53 |
| qwazix | and we downsize later | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in one day | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | move done | 20:53 |
| qwazix | server4you has an option with no setup fee | 20:53 |
| qwazix | we snatch 10 of those servers, get everything on them and in the next few months dismiss half of them | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: ack, except one server is enough | 20:54 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, OK, who will do that? | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | storage wise | 20:54 |
| qwazix | even if it is, IMO the only way to accept this proposal is to offer them whatever it's easier for them | 20:55 |
| qwazix | that is 1-to-1 what they have now | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: your professional ADMIN | 20:55 |
| ivgalvez | well right now we need a proffesional admin (as we don't have any volunteers like Mer) for TMO migration | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: they will upload a disk image, backup, or whatever | 20:56 |
| qwazix | ivgalvez, the idea is they do it (just as they would move to their own hardware, move to our choise of hw) | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they won't move the system | 20:56 |
| ivgalvez | then, once we have real control over maemo.org services, we would decide about that | 20:56 |
| qwazix | they wont? | 20:56 |
| ivgalvez | we could move everithing to where we host TMO or the other way around | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, unless you tell them they are admins of all those servers now, and those servers have same OS and size and whatnot | 20:57 |
| qwazix | > <ivgalvez> Nokia will pay for that process ---- that didn't mean moving the system? just the 2tb? | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the 2TB include the system, just as a backup or DD file | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dd | 20:57 |
| ivgalvez | haven't you seen the list of machines and services | 20:58 |
| qwazix | ofc, I meant the process of setting it up again | 20:58 |
| ivgalvez | currently running? | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | according to that internal paper total storage of maemo.org is 1.95TB | 20:58 |
| qwazix | yes, they are almost all vm's | 20:58 |
| qwazix | easy to move | 20:58 |
| ivgalvez | splitted in a lot of different systems | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :shrug: | 20:58 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, easy to move if you have access to that | 20:59 |
| qwazix | ofc | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a few vmware files on master server | 20:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | backup of master of course includes the VMs | 20:59 |
| qwazix | one way or the other we need a sysadmin | 20:59 |
| qwazix | yesterday | 21:00 |
| ivgalvez | Doc, that's great, really but you are not helping | 21:00 |
| ivgalvez | thanks qwazix | 21:00 |
| qwazix | So, anybody got an idea about the fees of a professional sysadmin? | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: I already noticed that I obviously can't help you | 21:01 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, if we get an admin it will be a lot easier to push our (maemo way) way in the migration | 21:02 |
| qwazix | because we'll have the answer to the probable "who's gonna do it" question | 21:02 |
| qwazix | so let's solve that, and I think that ivgalvez has understood our concerns | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2012-12-14 19:38:22] <DocScrutinizer05> the focus is: FIRST get a professional designing the whole shit, since *none* of us has a clue really | 21:03 |
| ivgalvez | of course I have understood, but I'm absolutely unable to do anything else | 21:03 |
| ivgalvez | I've been reclaiming to get access to maemo infra since more than 6 months now | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, then transfer 984$ to Reggie to pay his server 2 months longer | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since right now all of you are obviously in panic mode | 21:05 |
| qwazix | please, don't be destructive | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's absolutely non-destructive | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's the most sane suggestion since weeks | 21:05 |
| ivgalvez | if we cannot migrate it in time, of course we will try to arrange more time, but that doesn't solve any problem, as the migration would be needed sooner or later | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, no, suggesting one month would be the most sane | 21:06 |
| qwazix | what will we gain with one month more? | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we gain enough time to negotiate with Nemein | 21:06 |
| ivgalvez | and I don't see that we will have a free sysadmin in one month | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and Nokia | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and set up a proper server | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | find an admin | 21:07 |
| qwazix | Let me suggest something else | 21:07 |
| ivgalvez | or we set up a proper server in the US for TMO, and then move the rest of maemo.org there | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | BWAHAHA | 21:07 |
| ivgalvez | for the "find an admin" it was supposed that Council and especially you, would do it | 21:08 |
| qwazix | Get the tmo database and vbul license to a semi-qualified m.org member | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do you really think maemo.org privacy data hosted in sane EU may get moved to insane US legislative zone? | 21:08 |
| qwazix | to try and set it up in a VM on his pc | 21:08 |
| qwazix | if he manages that, we put that vm on a US server for one month | 21:08 |
| qwazix | when everything else moves moving another vm will be trivial | 21:09 |
| qwazix | what do you think? | 21:09 |
| ivgalvez | we cannot give the database to anyone | 21:09 |
| qwazix | whoever moves tmo will have access to the database | 21:10 |
| qwazix | can't happen otherwise | 21:10 |
| ivgalvez | then he has to be admin | 21:10 |
| ivgalvez | not a random guy | 21:10 |
| qwazix | I'm not talking about a random guy | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: if you meant me, definitely NO WAY. I refused being responsible to find admins from very beginning, I *clearly* stated that! nevertheless I already made a contact to admins, who would be willing to do the job if only you would appreciate that they won't do it for free and you would make up your mind what exactly you want them to do for you | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, this gets me upset now | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-/ | 21:10 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, ok, but again, we don't have anyone volunteering yet | 21:11 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 if you have any proffesional admin contact please send to Board | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and Why The Goddamn F**** can't you drop that alleged "privacy data" from tmo database??? | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: you're kidding me? I did a week ago | 21:13 |
| qwazix | Yeah, I'm not very good at this, but if there's absolutely nobody else that can do it, and only for tmo, I can give it a try. | 21:13 |
| ivgalvez | I receive about 200 mails a day related to maemo, I might have lost it | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: won't fly due to vBulletin licence, aiui | 21:13 |
| MentalistTraceur | Okay, we've spent a lot of time discussing details w.r.t. what to do with infra, which isn't even council jurisdiction. Let us get back to what we, as council, can actually do about the matter of getting a sys admin, rather than continuing down this road, which is getting increasingly likely to turn ugly. | 21:14 |
| qwazix | Doc, why? | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, thanks for voulnteering | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | MentalistTraceur thanks, | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | Actually it has consumed so much time that I'm leaving in a few minutes | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: because aiui that licence is personalized. Otherwise Reggie woul've donated it to us | 21:15 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05 license should be bought for HF | 21:15 |
| qwazix | DocScrutinizer05, we have to check that, it should be ok for an admin to use a license on behalf of a corporation | 21:15 |
| qwazix | the vm will not go live until is up on our new server | 21:16 |
| ivgalvez | qwazix, that's right, like with any other kind of software | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess the licence is bound to a hardware, domain, whatever | 21:16 |
| qwazix | there's always a provision for an additional dev domain | 21:16 |
| qwazix | in case the real domain isn't available yet | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MentalistTraceur: I suggested OM admins and added them to CC of mail that gone to both council and board ML | 21:17 |
| MentalistTraceur | Yes, I saw. | 21:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at end of that day they complained at me that they would need to charge board for reading all the "spam" as that alone takes hours | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly they're not interested in board internals | 21:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they want to do a job, with clear specs what to do | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nobody at board even mailed them directly | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it was irrelevant | 21:19 |
| qwazix | let's set up some specs and ask for a quotation | 21:19 |
| ivgalvez | OK, enough | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "not council's jurisdiction" | 21:20 |
| qwazix | ok | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok | 21:20 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 waves | 21:20 | |
| ivgalvez | I have to leave | 21:20 |
| ivgalvez | bye | 21:20 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 too | 21:20 | |
| MentalistTraceur | Alright. Anything else on agenda or we all done? | 21:20 |
| *** ivgalvez has quit IRC | 21:20 | |
| qwazix | no... | 21:21 |
| MentalistTraceur | Well, meeting adjourned then. In the future, I think I ought to work on my 'chairing'. That was a really long conversation down a route that, while important to discuss as a community, was not all that relevant to what we as council can do. | 21:24 |
| qwazix | The sad thing is that we didn't get anywhere... | 21:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, if some of us at least realized that, then we in fact got somewhere | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems to me that nobody explicitly disagreed on "FIRST get a professional designing the whole shit, since *none* of us has a clue really" | 21:28 |
| qwazix | Nobody disagreed, but board thinks that we should get over with tmo first | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if the second half of that statement needed any proof, today we got it | 21:29 |
| qwazix | and I think the solution I proposed can fulfil both views | 21:29 |
| MentalistTraceur | I explicitly stated that I think first we need to make sure stuff is moved to interrim solutions, then we can get professionals in to design the way the whole shit will ultimately look. | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's no such thing like interim solutions | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the only interim solution existing is to pay Reggie for another month of his server | 21:30 |
| qwazix | there is. Having tmo on a hetzner server for a while | 21:31 |
| qwazix | then move it again | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd not call new infra - not consolidated yet - an interim solution | 21:31 |
| qwazix | it's a php board, it should be trivial to move | 21:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise everything was an interim solution, since you are always facing the next scaling | 21:31 |
| qwazix | call it however you like, it still works, and it still allows for a professional to design the system, without having to pay 500bucks | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, it's trivial for Reggie (since he did for some meego stuff), but obviously not for HF board | 21:33 |
| MentalistTraceur | Then we get into semantics. I'd say it's interim if you've made the conscious choice that in the near future, you'll switch to something else. The point is, we drop the stuff onto our infra, even if it's a mess, because we can do that a lot faster than we can iron out the details of how to best set up the infra long-term. | 21:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | nobody been able to explain to me what's that mysterious "privacy data" in tmo | 21:33 |
| qwazix | MT +1e6 | 21:33 |
| qwazix | I'd say that's a non-issue | 21:33 |
| MentalistTraceur | It's not privacy as in personally identifiable info, I just said privacy in "data/privacy/etc law" or whatever phrasing I used. | 21:34 |
| qwazix | who's gonna sue us for going from a looser jurisdiction to a stricter? | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ask board | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there *is* *no* privacy data in tmo, except PM which can get dropped during move | 21:35 |
| MentalistTraceur | I was referring to the fact that according to posts by Board members, their legal council has informed them that American data storage laws requires them to get their users to sign off on their data being permanently stored somewhere other than US. | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there IS NO "their users data"! | 21:35 |
| qwazix | losing the forest here, imo. It's more probable that there's a problem with the data changing owner than changing country of storage | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | rhere are public posts | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nothing else | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: that too | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hell, if it doesn't work in any other way, drop all user accounts and require everybody to register new | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | drop accounts incl *all* "privacy" data | 21:37 |
| qwazix | or backup the front-end with a script, host it somewhere and set up a foss forum | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | though I'm absolutely sure nick and password-hash are not privacy relevant data either | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | qwazix: +1 | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nobody expept Reggie could sue you for doing that | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's what I meant when I said "it's exported from US every day a thousand times" | 21:39 |
| qwazix | "All Content CC" not even Reggie | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so WICH FSCKNG PRIVACY data? | 21:40 |
| MentalistTraceur | If we could field the lawyer costs to make sure that your interpretation is the one held up in court if some a-hole sued, this wouldn't be an issue. As is, we're arguing opinions about what constitutes what when I doubt any of us is familiar with the legalese and court precedent that applies to the matter. | 21:40 |
| qwazix | true that | 21:40 |
| qwazix | but still, wouldn't everybody sue google for caching webpages? | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I got another opinion: somebody might sue board for NOT moving tmo to maemo.org infra, for wasting donations. No what you do now? | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | as nonsensical a claim as the other one | 21:41 |
| MentalistTraceur | Wasting donations is not cause for either criminal or civil suit in any jurisdiction I know of. | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, *you* know of | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | can you please bring me a lawyer who supports that? | 21:42 |
| qwazix | The thing is that if you ask a lawyer if you should eat today, I bet he can find something that forbids it. | 21:42 |
| MentalistTraceur | Can you bring one that supports yours? Because if not, then you just reinforced my point. | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wtf are we talking about? | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's brainfucking | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when it talks like a duck, and walks like a duck, then it is a duck. THERE IS NO PRIVACY DATA | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't need a friggin lawyer to see that | 21:44 |
| MentalistTraceur | This isn't about privacy data, stop focusing on the word privacy. | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | PFFFF | 21:44 |
| MentalistTraceur | I already indicated that that wasn't what I was getting at. | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now sorry, I got better things to do | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | bye | 21:45 |
| qwazix | bye | 21:45 |
| MentalistTraceur | Bye. | 21:45 |
| qwazix | Btw I never got to bring the Nexus thing forward, anyway, next time. | 21:45 |
| MentalistTraceur | Well, you said you wanted to wait anyway. Anyway: Minutes will be sent out later today, | 21:46 |
| MentalistTraceur | or perhaps tomorrow depending on how things go. | 21:46 |
| qwazix | take your time | 21:46 |
| MentalistTraceur | I've been going on 4 hours of sleep every night for the last week, more or less, so I might just crash and sleep for the next 12+ hours or so now that it's the weekend. | 21:47 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 is going to do a wget backup of tmo during the weekend, then declares tmo dead and opens a new forum - maybe | 21:48 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on a EUROPEAN server | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fsck all lawyers | 21:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wanna see somebody sueing me for that | 21:49 |
| MentalistTraceur | Now what we should've done during the council meeting, is moved to bring this up to the community at large. | 21:51 |
| MentalistTraceur | If the bulk of the community is fine with tmo moving to an EU server, even with an account reregistration required, we wouldn't even have anything to argue about. | 21:52 |
| MentalistTraceur | And I suspect the bulk of the community would go "yeah fine that's cool do whatever". | 21:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on a sidenote: colocation @ hetzner: 40EUR/month... PLUS 30ct per Watt exceeding 50W. So if your server is rated 550W you pay 500 * 0.3EUR per month for electricity | 22:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | plus the inclusive traffic is only 5TB (instead of 10TB for decent dedicated hosting) | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | plus nobody will service those server hw that Nemein buys "for community" | 22:20 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 heads off to have a beer with his firend ex-hetzner-service guy | 22:21 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | friend* | 22:21 |
| MentalistTraceur | Since no one of the Board, who decides this, is corrently on this channel that I can see, perhaps sending this to them would be better. *Shrug* Anyway, enjoy your beer. | 22:24 |
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