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| Woody14619 | Hmm.. Is it 15:00 yet? | 18:02 |
|---|---|---|
| X-Fade | Depends on where you are :) | 18:02 |
| Woody14619 | Not if you're using UTC. ;) | 18:02 |
| ivgalvez | hi | 18:02 |
| X-Fade | Then you should say 15:00 UTC :) | 18:02 |
| Woody14619 | I should, but I'm lazy that way. :P | 18:03 |
| X-Fade | Hi guys | 18:03 |
| Woody14619 | So... Not sure you saw the news, but Council elections have been announced. | 18:03 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, I have seen it. | 18:04 |
| Woody14619 | So... A primary question for you is, I know you said something about vacation time coming up... Will it be possible to setup the machine for that time frame? | 18:04 |
| X-Fade | I'm only traveling next week. | 18:05 |
| X-Fade | So that should not be a problem. | 18:05 |
| Woody14619 | K, that's what I thought, so I figured we were good on that. :) | 18:05 |
| ivgalvez | and we also have the coding competition, list will be available next week, so if it could be possible to set it up for the next one, that'd be great | 18:05 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, I wonder how to do it sensibly. | 18:07 |
| Woody14619 | We just got mail from them about their wants on that, but it looks like it would be about the same as a general Council election setup, just with 7 categories. | 18:07 |
| Woody14619 | (Where we're asking for 2 categories essentialy this election). | 18:08 |
| Woody14619 | I've been looking over the wiki on how to set things up, but it's not exactly clear how to setup multiple categories. | 18:08 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, but that would mean 7 mails. | 18:08 |
| X-Fade | times the amount of users we have. | 18:08 |
| X-Fade | Which is a bit.... painful | 18:09 |
| Woody14619 | You can't combine them into one election? | 18:09 |
| Woody14619 | It looks like the machine is capable of voting for multiple "positions", like presient, vp, etc.. | 18:09 |
| X-Fade | Not that I know. | 18:09 |
| X-Fade | I don't think the software supports that. | 18:10 |
| Woody14619 | Hmm... the wiki info I saw would suggest if could... I'll look at that today. | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | Last time we did a lot of separate elections. | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | Which gave a lot of complaints | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | http://maemo.org/vote/ | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | List of elections. | 18:12 |
| ivgalvez | what other possibilities do we have? | 18:14 |
| X-Fade | Nothing ready for us to use without a lot of setting up, I fear. | 18:15 |
| X-Fade | Unless you would trust talk polls or something like that. | 18:16 |
| ivgalvez | so do you propose to set up 7 votings then? | 18:17 |
| X-Fade | I'd rather not. | 18:17 |
| X-Fade | That would generate close to half a milion mails. | 18:18 |
| ivgalvez | and what about set a category daily | 18:19 |
| Woody14619 | What if we did a competition per day, or every other day? That would at least spread them out a bit? | 18:19 |
| ivgalvez | me first ;) | 18:20 |
| X-Fade | It would still be the same amount of work and spamming :) | 18:20 |
| Woody14619 | Setup could be done all at once, just a matter of running the generation scripts. :) | 18:20 |
| Woody14619 | Hm... I seems really odd that it can't handle multiple categories... | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | You think that this is a clean ready solution. It is not :) | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | The code is available: https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/maemo-elections/vote/?root=maemo2midgard | 18:22 |
| X-Fade | It really is not a general purpose piece of software. | 18:23 |
| X-Fade | If someone wants to change it, then that would work too. | 18:23 |
| ivgalvez | so we need to look for an alternative method as it was supposed a few weeks ago | 18:25 |
| X-Fade | I don't have time to dive into this code and code some other solution. | 18:26 |
| ivgalvez | ok, going back to repositories, it seems that permissions on repositories are not yet working for merlin1991 | 18:28 |
| bergie | the vote software is adapted from the stuff GNOME uses, IIRC | 18:28 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Yeah, now bergie is back, I can ask him to take a look at why this doesn't work in midgard. | 18:28 |
| Woody14619 | X-Fade: Have you tried using a single token to vote on multiple elections at once? | 18:29 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: It is not my code, I just ran it. | 18:30 |
| bergie | Dave Neary did the election software | 18:30 |
| Woody14619 | Looking at the code, it would seem it just checks that you have a valid token, and are voting in an election with a valid date range. | 18:31 |
| X-Fade | Or at least he did some changes. | 18:31 |
| Woody14619 | And stores your results back into that eleciton with your token... | 18:31 |
| Woody14619 | If you setup two separare elections, and generate one token, I'd bet you can vote in both elections with the same token. | 18:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | how's token validity checked then? | 18:33 |
| X-Fade | I'm pretty sure the token is linked to the election. | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wouldn't both elections bneed same "seed"? | 18:33 |
| Woody14619 | The results for each election are stored separately. (And this is input token, not output token. Output tokens are generated based on your input token and the election ifo) | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or table of valid tokens? | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess - since in the end each token/vote is a row in a table anyway aiui - the generation of tokens will already populate the database with token values | 18:35 |
| Woody14619 | They do... they pull from a table called "electorate" and a per-election table of "election_anon_tokens". | 18:35 |
| Woody14619 | But you should be able to just clone the election_anon_tokens across elections... | 18:36 |
| X-Fade | But tokens are removed once you vote. | 18:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 18:36 |
| Woody14619 | From the local election_anon_tokens table, yes... | 18:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cloning should work | 18:36 |
| Woody14619 | There is no global token database from what I see. | 18:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure there's no *global* one ;-D | 18:37 |
| X-Fade | Anyway, if someone wants to modify the code so that it works.. | 18:37 |
| Woody14619 | Unless that is global? That wouldn't be global though, would it? | 18:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you always can clone a db | 18:37 |
| Woody14619 | hmm.. | 18:37 |
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| Woody14619 | Let me get back to you on that one X-Fade... But if we can move it so that one token can be used for multiple elections, would that make things easier over all? | 18:38 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: Well then we can just point to all the separate elections. | 18:39 |
| X-Fade | In one mail. | 18:39 |
| Woody14619 | Exactly... | 18:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you don't want SSO | 18:39 |
| Woody14619 | It would mandate that the CC elections end before Council elections though. :) | 18:40 |
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| Woody14619 | which I think was already implied, since the "electorate" table does appear to be global. | 18:40 |
| X-Fade | That gets wiped now every election. | 18:41 |
| Woody14619 | K. Let me look at that & see if it needs fixing or if it already does it. (Can test it out locally & make it so if not.) | 18:43 |
| Woody14619 | But if we could do that, so you just have to setup the electorate once, would you be willing to do the rest of the CC setup? | 18:43 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, that is no problem. | 18:44 |
| Woody14619 | (And we could use the same for the Council/Board election, so cuts work in half there too.) | 18:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "this is your token: <lkahdjkhehd> And those are the votes you can participate: URL1 URL2 URL3... You need to enter your token for each vote separately, sorry for the inconvenience" | 18:44 |
| Woody14619 | K. I will take that on and try to get that to you before Monday. :) | 18:44 |
| ivgalvez | X-Fade, merlin1991 confirms that repo management is not working yet, maybe we would need to take a different approach and give him more permissions to start working in migration | 18:45 |
| Woody14619 | Assuming it doesn't already work like that. ;) | 18:45 |
| Woody14619 | doc: exactly. | 18:45 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: Pretty sure it doesn't work like that as it deletes the code from the table. And how would you know that the person didn't vote yet? | 18:47 |
| Woody14619 | Because each election has it's own output table | 18:48 |
| Woody14619 | Why is why you can still get results for past elections after new ones. :) | 18:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | X-Fade: the table with valid tokes has to get cloned and local for each vote | 18:48 |
| X-Fade | DocScrutinizer05: Which doesn't happen now. | 18:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | of course that's manual work | 18:49 |
| Woody14619 | x-fade: that's a one-line command though... with no e-mail output | 18:49 |
| Woody14619 | One "side-effect" is that you'll be table to tell all 7 votes done by one "anon" person... But I don't see how that's special. | 18:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't think that's an issue | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you have a ballot with multiple segregate elections, that's all the same | 18:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anonymity is warranted | 18:52 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, that should not be that big of a deal. | 18:52 |
| Woody14619 | Reguardless, if it doesn't work that way now... It will shortly. ;) | 18:52 |
| X-Fade | Ok, well, ping me if you have something :) | 18:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it however won't hurt to mention it in a sidenote in the mail, that all votes are on same token and thus corellatable | 18:54 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 invents nice new words today ;-P | 18:55 | |
| Woody14619 | X-Fade: Has thee been any change on the repo managment stuff? merlin1991 is still not seeing management buttons. | 18:56 |
| merlin1991 | Woody14619: I think he answered this: "<X-Fade> ivgalvez: Yeah, now bergie is back, I can ask him to take a look at why this doesn't work in midgard." | 18:57 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: No, I will ping bergie about that issue where I have put him in the admin group, but he doesn't get to see the options. | 18:57 |
| Woody14619 | Ah.. my bad, I missed the reply. :) | 18:58 |
| ivgalvez | X-Fade check my latest comment | 18:58 |
| ivgalvez | wouldn't it be better to give merlin1991 more permissions instead | 18:58 |
| Woody14619 | K, I'll look at the election stuff and get that setup to work on multiple things. | 18:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | more than admin? | 18:58 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: As said before, the machine is still shared with Nokia stuff. | 18:58 |
| X-Fade | So I can't give him shell access atm. | 18:59 |
| ivgalvez | so first we would need a list of machines and services | 18:59 |
| ivgalvez | that way we could start planning the migration | 18:59 |
| X-Fade | Once we migrated that would be a lot easier. | 18:59 |
| ivgalvez | can't we start by reorganising all the stuff? | 19:00 |
| ivgalvez | at least we could have access to the services | 19:00 |
| Woody14619 | X-Fade: Do we have an ETA for when that's happening? Nothing we'll hold hard to, just and idea of when? | 19:00 |
| SD69 | Is there any progress on the servers Nokia is donating for maemo? | 19:00 |
| Woody14619 | (It has been on-going for a bit now.. and I know, things exploded mid-move... ) | 19:00 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: It is moving slowly atm, a few hours here and there. | 19:01 |
| ivgalvez | can we at least know which services and machines are we talking about? | 19:02 |
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| ivgalvez | I mean shared with Nokia | 19:02 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Only the repository one. | 19:02 |
| X-Fade | Another issue I'm trying to solve is to find a technical contact inside Nokia, who is able to change dns and give us ssl certificates. | 19:05 |
| X-Fade | As right now, Nokia is a black hole for me in terms of getting answers about that. | 19:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ouch | 19:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | without DNS change everything falls into pieces | 19:06 |
| ivgalvez | X-Fade, we can try to move that part | 19:06 |
| ivgalvez | with Nokia our contact | 19:06 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: That depends on ^^^ :) | 19:07 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 suggests CNAME | 19:07 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *now* | 19:07 |
| X-Fade | It is not that easy as the repository points to akamai atm. | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to some domain "we" got control over | 19:08 |
| X-Fade | We would need to change the source of that. | 19:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then forward from"our" domain to the akamei servers | 19:08 |
| X-Fade | DocScrutinizer05: That still doesn't give people the files you changed elsewhere. | 19:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not a DNS expert here, so maybe it's nonsense | 19:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | X-Fade: the idea is that Nokia already porovides a "hook" so we know the rest can be done by us eventually | 19:09 |
| ivgalvez | X-Fade, forward your needs to council, so we can talk to Nokia | 19:10 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Ok, will do. | 19:10 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Btw, who is your current contact? | 19:10 |
| ivgalvez | we have been asked not to share it publicly as they have to deal with other tasks | 19:11 |
| ivgalvez | qgil introduced us | 19:11 |
| ivgalvez | let's see if they can help | 19:11 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Ok, just wondered if it someone who is still there. | 19:11 |
| Woody14619 | I think it will make sense to introduce X-Fade, just not in channel. ;) | 19:12 |
| ivgalvez | I hope so, they are emptying the place very fast | 19:12 |
| ivgalvez | yes, we will put you in copy | 19:12 |
| ivgalvez | so as the only service in a shared machine is the repository, we could at least start administrating the rest of services/machines | 19:12 |
| ivgalvez | starting with merlin1991 and then adding some more volunteers to an administration group | 19:13 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 raises hand for a stand-in role | 19:13 | |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Yeah, it is not so easy to move as everything is linked together,. | 19:14 |
| X-Fade | But let's see what we can do. | 19:14 |
| ivgalvez | thanks X-Fade, I'm concerned that the more we wait the more difficult it will be to start managing it all | 19:14 |
| *** lbt is now known as lbt_away | 19:15 | |
| Woody14619 | I'd hope that migration plans would put most Maemo related things onto one set of devices, since those (logically) may be the only ones running past December, based on Nokia's state. | 19:15 |
| X-Fade | Let's see. | 19:17 |
| X-Fade | I need to wrap it up soonish btw, so if there is anything else to discuss? | 19:17 |
| Woody14619 | We'll hold Council meeting shortly, since we're mainly here.. but I think we've gotten all our questions/requests for you out. :) | 19:19 |
| Woody14619 | Thanks again for being available & helping with all this! | 19:19 |
| X-Fade | Hehe, ok no problem. | 19:19 |
| X-Fade | I'll probably not able to make it next week. | 19:20 |
| ivgalvez | thanks | 19:20 |
| Woody14619 | oh... And I'd assume wek now this.. but.. | 19:20 |
| Woody14619 | What is Henri's(sp?) e-mail there? | 19:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ivgalvez: you said you'd ping me to "proofread" some bylaw draft? | 19:22 |
| ivgalvez | doh | 19:23 |
| ivgalvez | I forgot | 19:23 |
| Woody14619 | I have the TMO link handy? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=86290 | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok | 19:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll look into it this evening, if it's still up to date | 19:24 |
| Woody14619 | I think the only changes so far from the version there are minor wording changes. | 19:25 |
| Woody14619 | Seems the main topic of debate is more about the name than the actual bylaws. :P | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, names are important ;-) | 19:27 |
| ivgalvez | I won't be available later | 19:29 |
| ivgalvez | Woody14619, is there anything you'd like to comment with me? | 19:29 |
| Woody14619 | Do you have a short bit? If so, with SD69 here we could do the Council meeting now, as proposed.. at 15:30? | 19:30 |
| SD69 | I have to leave soon | 19:30 |
| Woody14619 | Do we want to do the meeting now, or at 18:00? | 19:32 |
| Woody14619 | I'm flexable. ;) | 19:32 |
| Woody14619 | I'll be in front my a computer until well after that. :P | 19:32 |
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| SD69 | what do we need to discuss? | 19:34 |
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| Woody14619 | One or two quesitons that have come up in the bylaw discussion have asked about the things that AFAIK are legally required, based on SD69 (anual terms, board approving bylaws changes, etc) | 19:39 |
| Woody14619 | It would be nice if you could answer those SD69, as I'm mainly going on your word, as I am not an lawyer. ;) | 19:39 |
| Woody14619 | Topic 4: Misc | 19:40 |
| Woody14619 | Do we have anything else in the misc category? | 19:40 |
| ivgalvez | I don't think so | 19:40 |
| SD69 | annual term is not required; neither is board approving bylaw changes; just good practice I think | 19:40 |
| SD69 | I have to make extensive changes to the provision regarding the Board of Directors and the members. | 19:41 |
| Woody14619 | Hmm.. ok. There's been a rather strong bias toward removing the need for Board approval from bylaw changes.... | 19:41 |
| Woody14619 | SD69: To flesh it out more, or some legal reasons? We should move on tha ASAP. | 19:42 |
| Woody14619 | As I really would prefer to have those solid and everyone happy on them before Sept 15th (when people will start to nominate themselves or others for positions). It's not a hard deadline, but... | 19:43 |
| Woody14619 | Also, on incorporation: Since we're looking at going the route of incorporators starting it up, when should be do that? (And where do I need to send a check to? ;) | 19:44 |
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| ivgalvez | we could repost what has been discussed through ML in TMO | 19:44 |
| SD69 | The selection of subsequent Boards has to be clear | 19:44 |
| ivgalvez | as most people is not subscribed | 19:44 |
| Woody14619 | I've only seen really one or two questions from the ML, and most were also raise in TMO, but that's not a bad idea. :) | 19:44 |
| SD69 | Woody14619: I was going to do the incorporation through my law firm. I'll send the address offline. | 19:45 |
| SD69 | As soon as we are incorporated, I think Niel should open the bank account so we can start accepting donations. | 19:45 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: I see. For now I would say to codify what we already have (Council rules) in a slightly more vuage terms, and maybe drop the "Karma" requirements. | 19:46 |
| SD69 | bylaws and vague don't mix well | 19:46 |
| Woody14619 | Declaring what a member is, without referencing TMO and the like will be difficult. | 19:47 |
| ivgalvez | what if we lose karma and users database during transition (for whatever reason)? | 19:48 |
| SD69 | yes, it will be difficult, but if we're not exact, there will be complaints later, and there will be legal repercussions | 19:48 |
| Woody14619 | The election rules and process we can cut/paste from Council election pages... but right now membership is a TMO account with >10 Karma. | 19:48 |
| ivgalvez | so we need TMO in order to vote | 19:49 |
| ivgalvez | we need to talk again with Reggie about transition | 19:49 |
| Woody14619 | I agree... But we need to invent a new way for that then. Something agreeable to all current members. | 19:49 |
| SD69 | you can vote without a tmo account | 19:49 |
| Woody14619 | Yes, but it's Karma based... | 19:50 |
| SD69 | it's the custom karma system that is hard to duplicate if we can't transfer the entire infrastructure | 19:50 |
| ivgalvez | ok, but that belongs to maemo.org | 19:50 |
| ivgalvez | not tmo | 19:50 |
| ivgalvez | only that tmo gives aditional karma | 19:50 |
| Woody14619 | Which should be pretty easy to keep? | 19:51 |
| ivgalvez | well maybe a lot of members only have karma collected from tmo | 19:51 |
| Woody14619 | I'd be willing to bet that Karam is not a privacy concern on Reggie's side. Giving us a static end-times list of user accounts that map to maemo.org accounts and Karma levels would be doable. | 19:52 |
| Woody14619 | I think he's more worried about giving out the e-mail and personal info, which is in the TMO side, and not the maemo side, where it belongs anyway. | 19:52 |
| ivgalvez | right now, we should be able to start administrating all of maemo.org (except repositories) as X-Fade commented, that should also include voting mechanism | 19:53 |
| ivgalvez | TMO is a different beast | 19:53 |
| ivgalvez | maemo.org collects karma for users from TMO when they link accounts | 19:53 |
| Woody14619 | If we can keep Karma (even as a static snap shot that we can add yet another field to later if need be, from a new-TMO) then I think that's a valid thing to do. | 19:54 |
| ivgalvez | so right now we shoulb be able to manage maemo.org users and the karma should be preserved | 19:54 |
| ivgalvez | yes | 19:54 |
| ivgalvez | with legal entity formed, maybe Reggie wouldn't be so reluctant to traspass TMO | 19:55 |
| Woody14619 | I'm looking at token scripts now to see where it get e-mail from. | 19:55 |
| ivgalvez | but again, we need to start administrating services | 19:55 |
| SD69 | we could always hit the reset button on karma | 19:55 |
| ivgalvez | there is no need for that | 19:56 |
| ivgalvez | why should we? | 19:56 |
| Woody14619 | e-mails are in a maemo.org database, not TMO from what I see. | 19:56 |
| SD69 | personally, I think it's bad policy to let someone who hasn't participated for three years, swoop back in and have the same rights as those currently contributing | 19:56 |
| Woody14619 | Though that may be cross-populated for all I know. | 19:57 |
| ivgalvez | SD69 that's very difficult to judge | 19:57 |
| kerio | keep it accessible, as "old karma" in the profile page | 19:57 |
| SD69 | yes it's difficult | 19:57 |
| ivgalvez | Woody14619 right, we already have emails, so it shouldn't be a concern for Reggie | 19:57 |
| Woody14619 | X-Fade: If you're still here, we need a tech clarification. e-mail looks like it's coming from a local maemo.org database, not TMO. Is that correct? I would assume that DB will remain as things transfer? | 19:58 |
| kerio | aren't the repos the important thing? | 19:59 |
| Woody14619 | SD69: We could put in a simple ageing system, especially if TMO goes to read-only and we need to re-impliement forums. | 19:59 |
| SD69 | I think asking people to re-register or at least confirm their interest, rather than involuntarily migrating them over, is preferable | 20:00 |
| Woody14619 | Current Karma goes into a db, voting karma = new karma + (static karama * 1/(2012-current year)) :) | 20:00 |
| ivgalvez | kerio: yes, but X-Fade first needs to move them so they don't share a machine with other Nokia services | 20:01 |
| kerio | i see | 20:01 |
| ivgalvez | kerio: we have tried to get partial permissions for merlin1991 since almost twon months ago | 20:01 |
| ivgalvez | with no luck up to now | 20:01 |
| * kerio puts his two cents on pdiff support | 20:01 | |
| ivgalvez | kerio: I would die for that | 20:02 |
| Woody14619 | SD69: I'm actually in agreeance with you. Setup a separate voting registery... But then we must regulate who can sign up. Karma is good about that since it helps weed duplicate accounts. (As people tend to not want to post multitple times over several months to build Karam up on multiple accounts. ;) | 20:02 |
| ivgalvez | SD69, the problem wit reregistering is that most people won't do that | 20:03 |
| Woody14619 | And/or maintain several users with different garage projects to build Karma that way. | 20:03 |
| ivgalvez | and then they'll realize that too late for voting | 20:03 |
| Woody14619 | ivan: People that won't re-register are the ones ignoring their vote token in the e-mail now... | 20:03 |
| ivgalvez | Yes, but one thing is not to vote, a different one is not being able to | 20:04 |
| ivgalvez | I don't agree with that at all | 20:04 |
| Woody14619 | And yes, that may be an issue... We could stipulate that the first new Board election require 3.5 months notice, to remind everyone they need to sign up to vote? | 20:04 |
| ivgalvez | but why this complication, we con't need anything like that right now | 20:05 |
| ivgalvez | database is working, karma is working, voting is working | 20:05 |
| Woody14619 | Depending on where Karma lives, we may. | 20:05 |
| ivgalvez | all those services belong to maemo.org | 20:05 |
| ivgalvez | so we should be able to keep them | 20:05 |
| Woody14619 | Nokia has given us the domain, not nesseceraly all the things under it. | 20:05 |
| ivgalvez | do not start thinking about alternatives when we haven't reached the problem | 20:06 |
| Woody14619 | With the EU privacy laws, they may not be able to give us that data. | 20:06 |
| SD69 | because now maemo.org membership doesn't get you much - a vote for council w/o much power due to Nokia running everything; in the new entity, not so much | 20:06 |
| Woody14619 | Ivan: we DO need to think about that. | 20:06 |
| Woody14619 | Because we need to form the bylaws around this now. | 20:06 |
| ivgalvez | if after migration, we are not able to keep that, then we'll start thinking about it | 20:06 |
| Woody14619 | By which time it will be too late. | 20:07 |
| SD69 | we can't have a system that is SOOO open that Android ehtusiasts could register en mass and outnumber the maemo enthusiasts | 20:07 |
| ivgalvez | that's fixed by karma | 20:07 |
| SD69 | 10 point karma is easy to reach just by trolling on tmo | 20:08 |
| ivgalvez | then raise it to 100 | 20:08 |
| SD69 | ...in my opinion | 20:08 |
| ivgalvez | but you don't need to ditch the system | 20:08 |
| SD69 | now we're talking | 20:08 |
| Woody14619 | We could simply adopt the Karma rules... But I'm not sure I like them in the bylaws... | 20:08 |
| ivgalvez | that's another option, we shouldn't talk about the underlying technology in the bylaws | 20:09 |
| ivgalvez | as it can change | 20:09 |
| Woody14619 | Could we split the definitions? Put the definition of Member (with all the references to Karma and what not) into something like an Operational Agreement, and then reference that in the Bylaws? | 20:09 |
| SD69 | I don't think we can adopt the same karma point system because some parts of the IT infrastructure that give karma points might not be transferred over | 20:10 |
| Woody14619 | We could then set a lower bar for modifying the operational agreement, while keeping a high-bar for the bylaws. | 20:10 |
| SD69 | Or we could delegate that decision to community council... | 20:11 |
| Woody14619 | Oh.. Interesting idea.. | 20:11 |
| Woody14619 | Kind of a checks & balances approach.... | 20:12 |
| ivgalvez | SD69 nice split of powers | 20:12 |
| Woody14619 | I do like the ability to have direct Community input on that thoug. | 20:12 |
| ivgalvez | SD69 about karma coming from TMO, that's not so important, consider that right now it doesn't even work automatically | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/profile/view/**** | 20:13 |
| ivgalvez | you need to link accounts | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is karma | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NOT tmo | 20:13 |
| ivgalvez | and some people simply hasn't done it | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aah ivgalvez already mentioned | 20:13 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer05, that's right, | 20:13 |
| ivgalvez | OK guys, I need to leave | 20:14 |
| Woody14619 | Perhapse a delegation of changing that agreement requires a unanimous vote of Council, or a 2/3 vote on a referendum? | 20:14 |
| ivgalvez | bye | 20:14 |
| Woody14619 | K... Lets do this: Let;s post this to TMO and see what ideas happen? | 20:15 |
| *** ivgalvez has quit IRC | 20:15 | |
| Woody14619 | (In the bylaw thread) | 20:15 |
| Woody14619 | We'll present the ideas we've had here and see what floats? | 20:15 |
| Woody14619 | Or, make the changes and re-introduce? | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's also some quarantine period btw, regarding karma and registration and stuff | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and you need a maemo.org account | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for elections and stuff, you usually pick a "quarantine" period of several weeks up to some few months into the past, so nobody will mass-join avatars just a week before elections | 20:19 |
| SD69 | bye | 20:22 |
| *** SD69 has quit IRC | 20:25 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's funny to watch how there's obviouly two opposite POV: one (recently more popular) regarding tmo as maemo community and nothing outside really matters. And one (more "traditional") that never thought true maemo community would happen at tmo at all | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a few year ago tmo been a nice place, then became more and more uncomfortable for the oldtimers who previously thought of it as a tool to communicate but not by any means instituting and community membership | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/and/any/ | 20:31 |
| Woody14619 | I think theres room for both. Not everyone is a developer after all. The early devices were really targeted only at developers... | 20:31 |
| *** povbot has joined #maemo-meeting | 20:33 | |
| Woody14619 | And there are those on the other side that don't see TMO as community at all... Yet without it, many developers wouldn't have stuck around long enough to find the actuall development community (which is somewhat hidden, to be honest) | 20:34 |
| Woody14619 | My point is, all strife and hostility comes just from TMO's side. | 20:34 |
| Woody14619 | It exists on both sides of the fence. | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure | 20:35 |
| kerio | IRC > TMO | 20:35 |
| kerio | although technically IRC < TMO because I < T | 20:35 |
| Woody14619 | When in reality, the problem is the fence, not which side you stand on. | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also sure | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm just watching, amazed | 20:36 |
| Woody14619 | That's part of why the Karma system works as well as it does. It takes little bits from several places (devel and non-devel) to rank activity, not just unique e-mail addresses. :P | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "recent" ideas about karma-aging are probably a poor idea, as it would require senior members to compete with trolling newcomers to keep their karma up | 20:43 |
| Woody14619 | K, I got a lot to do. Please to weigh in on this though on the TMO thread if you can (or the ML... or some other place with a slight bit more permanance than IRC? ;) | 20:43 |
| Woody14619 | No, I don't think so... | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NB it always been planned to look at IRC too, but it turned out there's no feasible metrics | 20:43 |
| Woody14619 | Right now, coding input is very heavily weighted. | 20:43 |
| Woody14619 | TMO input (by design I think) is like collecting pennies. Commiting from a garage is quarters... And you only need a buck to participate. | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure, but even that is ... well, a lot of useful stuff already exists | 20:45 |
| Woody14619 | And we're talking about some pretty major aging here. Like dropping stuff after 3 or 4 years. | 20:45 |
| Woody14619 | If you haven't pushed to a garage in 3 or 4 years, or commented in TMO in that time frame either, how active are you in the community really? | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | damn, sitting at PC with my shopping bag, shoes, jacket. Missed the time window again ;-/ | 20:46 |
| Woody14619 | And yes, IRC metrics are hard to compute too... | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Woody14619: how likely is it that you'll (ab)use that 'old' karma then, otoh | 20:47 |
| Woody14619 | finding a mertic that allows non-frequent talkers (like GA) in, while excluding povbot.... would be a challenge. | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | karma aging is the wrong solution for a nonexistent problem | 20:48 |
| Woody14619 | True, but it has happened, from what I've heard. :) | 20:48 |
| Woody14619 | The bigger concern here is that we have to put something into words to capture all this to make it "legal". | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all, just MEH, who gives a shit about karma? as long as mine lasts for voting, and no troll can gather enough in a week to mess with votes | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yup | 20:50 |
| Woody14619 | We could just use/copy the Karma system as is... which is great. But I really don't want to hold a referendum to change the bylaws to fix it if something goes away or changes it's name in a month. | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I have no complete picture of what's all this stuff about anyway | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is about* | 20:51 |
| Woody14619 | Thus my desire to split this out of bylaws and put it somewhere a little easier to update. | 20:51 |
| Woody14619 | We need to make a legal entity to inherit stuff from Nokia (and maybe TMO/Reggie). That's where it's coming from. | 20:51 |
| Woody14619 | And we want/need to set that entity up so that it stays democratic (like Council), so one raving idiot can't come along and take control of all the servers and what not. | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pretty hard task, to create somewhing decent that doesn't look like a blunder and/or con | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd prefer to elect a king for lifetime ;-P | 20:53 |
| Woody14619 | Yes, but kings go insane and/or die. | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | benevolent monarchy | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they should have installed their successor before they do | 20:54 |
| Woody14619 | Which is what we kind of had with Nokia. But that king is going insane and/or dieing... See... | 20:54 |
| Woody14619 | Kings almost never install a successor in time. | 20:54 |
| Woody14619 | "Long live Nokia!" | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 20:55 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 waves and heads out to finally eat something | 20:55 | |
| Woody14619 | bye! | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | "Nokia is dead. Long live Jolla" (semi tongue-in-cheek) | 20:59 |
| kerio | "Nokia is dead. Well, shit." | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | after all if they'd own the servers, they could have a final veto on anything mad going on with admins whatever on the hosted maemo stuff | 21:01 |
| *** Woody14619 has quit IRC | 22:51 | |
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