IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Friday, 2012-06-22

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ivgalvezhi everyone21:02
Stskeepswhich meeting is happening?21:02
NielDKcouncil meeting21:02
Woody14619Estel_, SD69... I think we're all here... wakey wakey. :)21:03
ivgalvezI have just addressed the issue about promotion of applications depending on non-free packages, just in time for the meeting :)21:04
Woody14619OKey... Lets setup agenda then?  Estel_ can add when he arrives?21:05
Woody14619Item 1> package promtion issues.21:05
NielDKand the winnings :) well done!21:05
Woody14619Item 2> CA wrap-up and other happyness.21:05
Woody14619Item 3> Open questions.21:05
Woody14619#start maemo Council meeting21:06
Woody14619Topic 1>  package promotion issues:  Ivan?21:06
ivgalvezFortunately we have finished the nightmare of CA21:06
ivgalvezit took a lot of time21:06
ivgalveznow I'm back to promotion of packages21:07
ivgalvezissue discussed at previous meeting has been addressed to X-Fade21:07
ivgalveznow we need to wait for his answer21:07
Woody14619Want to do a quick summary?  I mailed X-Fade, but didn't get a direct responce.  But I know it at least he did see it. :)21:07
ivgalvezApparently it's not possible to promote applications to Extras if they depend on non-free packages21:08
ivgalvezThis is blocking further improvements to package qt-components for Fremantle.21:08
ivgalvezNow that Nokia has granted permission to package Harmattan icons and Nokia Pure fonts, they could be used as dependencies to improve compatibility of Harmattan applications in Fremantle.21:08
Stskeepshave you guys considered to use the nemo qml components theme instead?21:08
ivgalvezparticularly it's blocking meecolay development21:08
Stskeepsit's not commercial/non-free21:08
Stskeepsand works just fine21:08
Woody14619From the monday OBS meeting, he noted once OBS is in, this goes away.  But for now it may have to be a manual push by him.21:09
ivgalvezit's already packaged with qt-components21:09
ivgalvezI mean21:09
ivgalveznemo qml components21:09
Woody14619Stskeeps:  This is from another maintainer, but we could always suggest it. :)21:09
Stskeepsok, because we just use droid fonts and things work fine21:09
Stskeeps(that's about what i had)21:09
ivgalvezbut Harmattan theme is supposed to improve compatibility of Harmattan applications in Fremantle21:10
Stskeepsnemo qml -theme- i mean21:10
ivgalvezin any case, depending on non-free stuff is not so strange21:10
ivgalvezfor example games21:10
ivgalvezwith open source engine21:10
ivgalvezand redistributable, yet closed, data21:10
ivgalvezso promotion should be possible21:11
Woody14619stskeeps:  I'll relay the idea to the maintainer non the less... I susspect he'll want to use the original theme though.  Thank you for the suggesion though, as I don't think we were aware of it.21:11
ivgalveznow we have a new possible issue21:12
Woody14619which is?21:12
ivgalvezwith infrastructure21:12
ivgalvezgranting permissions to upload packages to Extras devel21:12
Woody14619This is the mult-day delay for a new account, right?21:12
ivgalveztxaizo, developer of Saera, is waiting to receive that permission21:12
ivgalvezyes, but there are two things to check21:13
ivgalvezfirst the email that is automatically sended21:13
ivgalvezsaying something like "I'm no longer working at Nokia blah blah"21:13
ivgalvezwhich is confusing21:13
Woody14619Yes, that has been there a while.21:14
ivgalvezas it seems that you won't get the permission21:14
ivgalvezand second, it's quite long now21:14
ivgalvezI'll aske txaizo again21:14
ivgalvezin my case, it took 3 or 4 days21:14
Woody14619I signed up for an account weeks ago and got that message... that the system is no longer maintained, and that you will be given permissions in 3 days unless someone promotes it sooner.21:14
ivgalvezwe should change the text21:14
Stskeeps(what email do you get that from, out of curiousity?)21:15
Woody14619From signing up for a new garage, amoung other things.21:15
ivgalvez" I am leaving Nokia on 30th of April (unless my contract gets extended at the last minute)."21:15
NielDKi think he meant sender adress?21:15
Stskeepsyeah, what NielDK said21:15
Woody14619So, I'll try tagging him today and see if he still has the issue.  If so, I'll talk to X-Fade about it on Monday at OBS.21:16
Stskeepsah, interesting21:16
Woody14619Could just be things got jammed and need a kick to get it going again.21:16
ivgalvezsounds like รง2the end is coming"21:16
ivgalveznothing more from my side for point 121:17
* Woody14619 nods... thus the push to get OBS done ASAP. Removes lots of the older legacy stuff that's not maintained now.21:17
Woody14619K, topic 2> CA wrap-up21:17
Woody14619Ivan, I think we're good with sending the list as is (minus one person?) to Quim21:17
ivgalvezyes, already sended21:18
Woody14619I haven't been able to check mail, but once FC makes his return official, we can move on that as well.21:18
ivgalvezwith additional explanations about fcrochik device,  you all are cc'ed21:18
ivgalvezso you don't know, don't you?21:19
Woody14619Thank you again for all the work and effort you put into this.  Having 90% of the data organized and ready was a huge help to everyone.21:19
ivgalvezfcrochick has donated his device to Coding Competition21:19
Woody14619No, again, didn't catch up on mail since last night. :)21:19
Woody14619Ahh... OK. :)  That works too then.21:19
SD69yes, thanks for the work on the community awards data21:19
ivgalvezwell, now we are hated21:20
Woody14619In fact, given the royal mess in TMO, almost works better. :)21:20
Woody14619Lol... Ivan.. I assumed as much when I took the job. ;)21:20
Woody14619Nobody is ever happy with leaders.  It starts 10 minutes after polls close. :D21:20
NielDKthe hate will always appear, but from a few ppl i woukd say21:21
* Woody14619 nods. For every person posting negativly, there are those posting positivly as well.21:21
Woody14619It's just the negative ones post a lot more, and are "louder".21:21
Woody14619In a week, it will be forgotten...21:22
ivgalvezand gazillions that don't care21:22
ivgalvezArie is triyng to run his own Harmattan Council21:22
ivgalvezpretty sad21:22
Woody14619Which, for someone who is "no longer using his N9" will be quite a feat...21:22
Woody14619But, that is what it is... no need to bring it up here.. :)21:23
Woody14619I susspect most of the Harmattan camp is actually quite happy with how things went.21:23
ivgalvezlet's move21:23
Woody14619K... I want to inject one more item:  OBS status21:23
Woody14619I've been following this one... it took a minor his this past week as Niel has been putting fires out on his side after the Nokia announcment.21:24
Woody14619But we're hoping to have things moving in a higher gear asap.21:24
Woody14619I've lined up some folks to document and test documentation (both are univ guys that just finished up & are free for a few weeks now)21:24
ivgalvezI have a question here, once running, if we need to move to a diferent infrastructure how difficult will it be21:25
ivgalvezi mean out of servers21:25
Woody14619So, the hope is we can get that rolling, life will be nicer.21:25
NielDKjust to clarify. Not me youre reffering to?21:25
Stskeepsivgalvez: i think you need to look at what services need to continue really.. server space only x-fade can really answer21:25
Woody14619It will still be on servers, as will repos, but it will be easier to manage.  Garages go away, etc.21:26
SD69what do you mean different infrastructure?21:26
Woody14619Nieldk, correct... X-Fade is also named Niel. ;)21:26
Woody14619doah!  My bad. :)  Yes, Niels....21:26
ivgalvezSD69: if servers are shut down, how difficult is to move to a different place?21:26
SD69we were alreay thinking of throwing the cOBS servers into a joint project with Mer21:26
Woody14619The nice part about cOBS is that it's more flexable and more portable, once packaged.21:27
Stskeepssince we're on this topic.. perhaps it would be valuable to see what the general community would pitch in per month for a shared resource21:27
Stskeepsas that will show what you can really have in a non-nokia scenario21:27
Stskeepsit is for the benefit of them and everybody else, so21:28
SD69stskeeps:  I don't think we'll have much trouble doing a few hundred euros per month21:28
Woody14619stskeeps, we have been discussing things like that already... But the hard part is where to ask.  TMO?  The crazys would be out in force...21:28
NielDKif we need new hosting and servers. someone give me more details  might be able to find sponsor21:28
SD69plus the servers may (or not) be donated by Nokia21:28
StskeepsWoody14619: that's what average for :P21:28
ivgalvezbefore starting all that stuff, I think we must otline the plans for transisition21:29
ivgalvezfirst of all is the legal stuff21:29
Stskeepsi think you could get fairly beefy farm if you put the hat around..21:29
Woody14619I agree.. which is the major task for this week, yes?  I'd really like to have most of that fleshed out already.21:29
ivgalvezbefore any funding activity, otherwise we will be accused of taking the money and run21:30
Stskeepsivgalvez: seperate bank account, scan account statements..21:31
Woody14619stskeeps: there are tons of options.  One could be a recurring minor thing setup (like a $X/month style donation).  Enough of those and you have a reliable stream w/o anyone going broke.21:31
StskeepsMer budget is 300 EUR/month and we have a fairly large amount of package builds21:31
Woody14619I know several groups that do that and cover all their infra costs (a-infos, being one example).21:31
Woody14619And we really do need to link up with Mer on this.21:32
Woody14619Stskeeps, you're involved with them, right.. when are their meetings again?21:32
Stskeepswe've had a bit of a break, vgrade has been very busy, but you're also welcome to suggest a date21:32
Stskeepsfrankly, if we can find common ground of 300 EUR a month total, we can handle a lot..21:33
Woody14619Well avoiding Mon/Fri would be best, doing to meetings in combo is hard, even on IRC.21:33
Stskeepsfor a community obs that's fremantle/harmattan/mer21:33
Woody14619Do you have a minutes log somewhere like OBS & council have?  To catch up with?21:33
* Woody14619 really loves that idea... for tons of reasons.21:34
SD69woody14619: there's a Mer mailing list and you can subscribe to that to get the info21:34
Stskeeps has all the community OBS meetings21:34
Stskeepsfor various reasons we want to have it semi-seperate from Mer due to legal action (remember chromium?) as to not risk our own project21:35
Woody14619Thank you stskeeps. :) I'll look over it.  Others here may want to as well if you haven't already been following in.21:35
Woody14619And we'll probably want something similar, for the same reasons.. but overall, I think resource sharing (especially fremantle/harmattan) makes sense, with the closed bits all belonging to Nokia...21:36
Woody14619Of course, with the rate they're going... may not be a worry anyway...21:37
ivgalvezI see the following points to be addressed before the any transition takes place:21:38
ivgalvez1 - Legal situation of maemo community. Are we going to constitute a legal entity on it's own?21:38
ivgalvez2 - Funding activities. An specific working group should be created to control them.21:38
ivgalvez3 - Redistribution of software packages and tools.21:38
ivgalvezA technical working group should analize what is needed to guarantee maintenance of Maemo and Harmattan devices and prepare a lis tof packages we need to be able to redistribute.21:38
ivgalvezThose copyrighted by Nokia can be addresed to Quim Gil, but those from third parties will requiere to work on contacting them and ask for redistribution permission.21:38
SD69I don't think there's much chance of getting redistribution permission now21:39
Stskeepsin terms of 3rd party the only one you should worry about is SGX and you can succesfully emulate that in OBS with Mesa.21:39
Woody14619I think everything used in the OBS is redistributable by Nokia, like the images one gets from their site.  But it's to a person, not a group.21:39
ivgalvezIt's not the same than releasing the sources21:39
NielDKzero Quim already said21:40
ivgalvezTI could provide permission to redistribute the drivers for N900 devices for example21:40
Stskeepsthe rest is nokia binaries and i honestly think you don't have to worry..21:40
Stskeepsnothing that can't be fixed with a EULA21:40
Stskeepswe already had a similar talk with nokia in old mer21:41
Woody14619so, in that reguard, it may be more doable... I think we've isloated that stuff pretty well, from what I've read on the OBS side.21:41
Woody14619I'm almost more worried about SB2 long term than the Nokia SDK blobs...  :P21:41
Stskeepsi've worked on SB2 stuff, met with sb2 author last week21:42
Stskeepsand we're working to properly establish wiki, mailing list, documentation, etc21:42
Stskeepssb2 is intensively used in mer, so not going away from that side21:42
Woody14619As fif X-fade, which was great... but there was concern that the SB2 we need for fremantle may be... relegated to a shelf based on Nokia's annoucement.. so.21:43
Stskeepsright, i wouldn't worry21:43
Woody14619:) I'll take all the reassurance I can get at this point. ;)21:43
Woody14619K.  So, one quick maintainanace issue:  AI review...21:43
Woody14619Looks like all AI from last week were done.21:44
SD69I'll take 1- legal and I think Niel said he would take 2- funding21:44
Woody14619Niel, thank you for the research on IRC policies and such.21:44
ivgalvezyes it's pretty complete21:44
Woody14619I think that's progressing well, though low priority.21:44
NielDKthanks for making it better ;)21:45
Woody14619on what sd69 was saying, I'm willing to work on topic 3 for a bit, but will happily step asside for someone more familar with it if they emerge.21:45
Woody14619Everything else is done. :)21:45
SD69When we get a chance, I'll relay some comments received from SFLC on maemo reorganization21:46
ivgalvezOK, is anything else you need from me?21:46
Woody14619so... that said.  Any further topics? Input from the community, rotten fruit someone wants to throw?21:46
Woody14619Seeing none, we'll close the meeting then?21:47
SD69SFC is interested if maemo can have a truly FOSS output21:47
ivgalvezOK, bye then21:47
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Woody14619Given the nature of Maemo, I don't think it can really...21:47
Woody14619Not by pure standards...  Would be great if we could and retain all functionality though.21:48
Woody14619But the GSM and SGX stuff alone would preclude that no?21:48
Woody14619#end maemo meeting?21:48
StskeepsSD69: output of the community sure, but what they base on..?21:48
* Woody14619 nods21:49
Stskeepsnot likely21:49
SD69stskeeps: that's the key issue21:49
Stskeepsperhaps look to how communities which build on top of windows ?21:50
Stskeepssimilar issues21:50
Woody14619We have lots of nice FOSS tools out there now.  Some are super cross-platform.  Mondrana, for instance, runs on everything from GTA02 to android (N9* and N8*0 included, if you attach a gsp dongle. ;)21:50
SD69we need to decide what the reorganization will be doing, particularly wrt FOSS21:50
SD69if it's just supporting old Nokia maemo products or forward looking mobile linux?21:51
Stskeepsmy personal view is that is a service community, by the community, for the community, surrounding their devices.. there's no real software product the community can truly and fully govern and modify21:51
Stskeeps.. sorry if i'm intruding too much21:52
Woody14619Frankly, I think it will be hard enough to get coverage for Nokia products, yet alone start with bundled in other concept.21:52
Woody14619To some degree, we're already doing that by looking at linking up with Mer and others...  But those are still all rooted in the same place initially, even if they've diverged a lot since then.21:53
SD69well then, we need a mechanism for the community to decide21:53
Woody14619No, stskeeps, I think your input is essential on thise. :)21:53
Woody14619I think the community will be open to adding new things.. and I think that will happen reguardless over time.21:53
NielDKhave to leave you guys, see you next friday21:54
Stskeepsand those of us who did software development in the community that could be governed and modified left the boat in order to be able to start a community a-fresh without extreme expectations/entitlement syndromes..21:54
Woody14619But the initial startup, I think we need to focus on keeping the base we have, while leaving the wording open enough to later include more branches as they appear.21:54
Stskeepsso that makes life even more difficult..21:54
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SD69stskeeps: I agree but we have to decide what to do with maemo.org21:55
Stskeepsmake a plan how looks in 3, 6, 9 and 12 months and go from there, perhaps21:55
Stskeepsand make data points of how many likely users are around, their needs21:55
Woody14619which is what quim was trying to do last month on TMO...21:56
Woody14619.oO(It was like showing a cat how a blender works... never a good idea...)21:56
SD69in order to get support for a new entity, we need to establish a mission or purpose for it21:56
Stskeepsfind a way to continue the forum, the apps story, the wiki maybe, and making sure that nokia's deliverables (firmware images, SDK, etc) can stay up somehow21:57
Stskeepsthe latter isn't really many pennies21:57
SD69stskeeps: for what purpose? to support the legacy maemo products, right?21:57
Stskeepsapps being 'extras', sorry, too much brainwashing :P21:58
SD69that will be a project doomed to disappear someday21:58
Woody14619Again, we can always word it to cover the community as a continuation community for now, but leave the door open for it to change in the future.21:59
Stskeepsit is, but it may spawn other projects like has21:59
Woody14619sd69: all things die.  It's just a matter of when.21:59
Stskeepsas people get together21:59
Woody14619tablet talk, for example...21:59
Stskeepscover what the community -needs- to do, then it can start acting as incubation afterwards22:00
* Woody14619 nods22:00
SD69we need a mechanism for the community to make this decision22:00
SD69perhaps a referendum?22:01
Woody14619Frankly, I'd even preserve Council as the body elect, even if there's no Nokia to talk to.  Council really isn't about talking to Nokia these days as much as it is leading and gathering concensus.22:01
Stskeepsi'm much about open, but honestly.. i think council could decide on the future22:02
Stskeepsreferendums are likely to be completely derailed in community atm, by very very vocal minority22:02
Stskeepsleaving those who would actually care and vote apathic22:03
Woody14619Normally, I'd be about a referendum... But in this case, I have to agree with stskeeps.22:03
SD69woody14619: to do what, decide the future of within council?22:04
Woody14619That, or we really need to get a more accessable voting machine, since decisions like this will come up often...22:04
Woody14619Again, like many things, I think we need to act in a more leading role.  Asking "what do you want" is inviting a circus.  Propsing two or three routes and asking "which do you want" is far more usefull.22:05
Woody14619And I don't think that a choice will be one of the 2 or 3, but that it will give enough structure that it doesn't go off the rails as easily.22:05
SD69So who will propose the 2 or 3 choices?22:07
Woody14619I think, in the end, we're going to wind up with an intially backward-focused group, looking to maintain what we have now, that can be flexible enough to embrace the next generation when it comes along.22:07
StskeepsWoody14619: i think anything remotely nokia next generation is kinda out the window by now, so it's better to think about what community could support/framework for new innovation..22:08
SD69I agree with stskeeps - it's either legacy Nokia/maemo or it's22:08
SD69forward looking22:09
Woody14619I'm not limiting to Nokia on that... and I'm good with framework stuff too...22:09
Woody14619I don't see why it has to be one or the other, and not both.22:09
StskeepsSD69: 2 or 3 choices, council, IMHO22:09
Stskeepsbest thing to do is to ensure survival and frankly, if you don't do it now, could be gone in 6 months..22:09
SD69you mean - we put the 2 or 3 choices out to the community for discussion, and then council votes??22:10
StskeepsSD69: no, council puts out 2 or 3 choices and referendum, perhaps22:10
Stskeepssomething concrete to vote upon22:10
Woody14619Survivial, right now, is legacy.  If we make a forward looking group without support for legacy, the exisiting group goes away.22:10
Stskeepslike, a direction to take22:10
SD69woody14619:  I'm not asking for your substantive opinion, I'm asking about process22:11
SD69and where did rest of council go?22:11
Woody14619?? You just said it's either legacy or forward looking... I commented that black/white model is not requried.22:12
SD69then what would be the 2 or 3 choices for the referendum?22:12
Woody14619Ivan & Niel left a while ago... Estel_ was MIA the whole meeting.22:12
Woody14619Well, it sounds like we already have a couple options:22:13
Woody146191> a purely legacy group, focused on Maemo (and maybe MeeGo?)22:13
Woody146192> a group focused on framework (like Mer) the build out existing stuff up for new hardware (corp or inovative, like RasPi)22:14
Stskeeps3, both?22:15
Woody146193> a group that's more about following future trends in tablets & smart phones (back to ITT model)22:15
Woody14619Yeah.. that could work for 3 as well.. :)22:15
Stskeepsthough 1> needs to be first priority for sure.. (my opinion)22:16
Stskeepsfor the while being22:16
Woody14619Or even presenting them split like this, to encourage the concept of merging.22:17
Woody14619As I said, I'm for forming as 1, with the option to pick up 2 or 3 once 1 is stable.22:17
SD69so shall we suggest discussion of 4 choices where 3) is both and 4) is ITT model?22:18
Stskeepswould be good to accompany each with what needs to be done, what services shut down, etc, in each22:18
SD69woody14619: we're not deciding what to do; we're deciding what the choices will be for the referendum22:18
Woody14619We could do it that way, or as I noted, encourage the idea of merging as part of the proposal.  (eg 1 and 2, or 1 and 4)22:18
Woody14619sd69? Where and I saying we're deciding what do to?22:19
Woody14619I was using my choice and an EXAMPLE of the merging I was talking about... not saying we dictate that into being...22:20
Woody14619I susspect most people are going to want some form of choice 1 in any foundation we make.22:21
SD69I suspect most people are going to want a clear mission statement before they support and/or donate money22:22
Woody14619choosing between a framework type path and a hardware driven path though will be the harder part.22:22
StskeepsSD69: makes sense22:23
Woody14619Yes.. which is why we're discussing creating that mission statement now, right? And how to do that with community input.22:23
Woody14619Without having a 3-rig circus where nothing gets decided.... (which is what's happened every other time this topic has come up)22:23
Stskeepsthough on the opposite side you can look from co-operative side and decide based on who is doing active contribution (money, packages, wiki edits, karma..).. i guess referendum should do that22:24
Stskeepsas that's wjhat will matter in a future community that doesn't have big company backing..22:25
Stskeepsok, i'll shut up now and watch football game :P22:25
Woody14619true... If, for example, we can get free hosting, etc, from a FOSS/framework group, it may make more sense to focuse on that route.  But frankly, given the nature of the beasts, I don't see that happening.22:26
SD69woody14619: does "3-ring circus" mean you want to avoid tmo?22:28
Stskeeps3-ring circus meaning something to concentrate discussion around, rather22:28
Stskeepseasier to distinguish between endless trolling and something that's relevant to a pre-set topic22:28
Woody14619No, but I don't want to present it as "What should we do" to TMO.  Again, presenting options doesn't mean we must choose exactly one and only one.  But walking in with 3 options vs a vauge "what to do" will make a huge difference.22:29
Woody14619TMO will go crazy with it, no matter how hard we try to stop it.  But if we present a set of options to discuss, we'll get a far clearer answer than if we just ask "what do you want", or present one option and ask for changes.22:31
SD69OK, let's plan on that.22:31
SD69we need agreement from absent council members first22:31
SD69via email, I guess22:31
Woody14619Agreed... I think it will make sense to them though. :)22:32
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Woody14619Or maybe they'll have a better idea we're not seeing... who knows.22:32
Estel_Sorry for being extremely late, gentlemans22:32
Estel_my USB-less N900 decide to got filesystem corrupted to the point, where broken maemo e2fsprogs couldn't repair it22:33
Estel_I'm reading logs, give me a 3 minutes and i;ll be up-date22:33
Woody14619We're in post meeting discussions actually.  Meeting went well.  I'm doing minutes as we speak.22:33
SD69Estel: we've wrapped up - ivan and neil left awhile ago22:34
SD69I'll check in on email for curther discussion22:34
SD69bye everyone22:34
Woody14619k. :)22:35
Woody14619Thanks again for your input stskeeps.  Lots of good points and input, always appreciated. :)22:35
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Stskeepsyeah.. i'd be doing a lot more but i just can't be arsed with abill_uk and some other people around on tmo..22:37
Stskeepsread that one and understand what it does to the community22:38
Stskeepsthere's a video around of the talk22:38
Estel_Fully agree. Thanks a lot forYour input Stskeeps22:40
Estel_and as for abil_uk and others, they have nice small ignore button :D22:41
Stskeepsdoesn't help for the general community22:41
Stskeepsstill steals too much attention22:41
Estel_Stskeeps, some time ago I've been thinking about fundraising for both Maemo and Mer ifnrastructure (one fundraising)22:41
Estel_of course, after creating legal entity22:42
Stskeepsprobably best to think of a community obs fundraising22:42
Estel_javispedro seemed not interested, but, honestly, who @ Mer should we talk about it with?22:42
Estel_yes. exactly that22:42
Stskeepswell, check out the links above in the meeting22:42
Stskeepsthat explains our stance a bit more22:42
Estel_most of Maemo folks understand, that OBs for both Maemo and Mer is beneficial22:42
Estel_seen them already, and I agree with points mentioned there :)22:42
Estel_honestly, I'm a bit worried about license for re-distributing system components22:43
Estel_EULA etc22:43
Estel_considering current state of Nokia...22:43
Stskeepsthat one i wouldn't really worry about. only problem is SGX/GLES22:43
Woody14619I think most of that's covered....22:43
Stskeepsyou're all at a point which i was at already in 2007 with old mer22:44
Estel_so called "Nokia repos" isn't. Imagine that, one day, Qgil is replaced or, even more possible, we have no contact @ nokia at all22:44
Stskeepswe were shocked to figure out that in practice, they're really not that evil22:44
Stskeepswe overcomplicated matter22:44
Estel_BTW, re-using Nokia closed bits for Nokia devices is exception, that can be revoked at any time22:44
Woody14619Yup... they won't care unless you start doing evil things.. and even then, it has to be worth their bother.22:44
Stskeepssure.. but if you really want to cover your ass then just accept EULA for SDK for the obs22:44
Estel_I know they're not. I'm jsut worried that upon cutting, new people can just answer "no" no matter of question22:44
Stskeepsand then disallow local builds of it22:45
Estel_hm, sounds like an option22:45
Woody14619Yup... pass the EULA along, just like the Nokia site does for firmware images and the like.22:45
Estel_Right, haven't though about that22:45
StskeepsWoody14619: not even that.. there is no good reason why the user even needs to get in toch with the binaries22:45
Stskeepsthe obs is the one doing the builds..22:45
Woody14619True... but some stuff (like the SGX) I think even access to the .h files is enough to requre EULA.22:46
Woody14619And those would have to be accessable, or easily could be with a compiler directive. ;)22:47
StskeepsWoody14619: sure, but i'm again saying.. it's a build farm22:47
Stskeepsthe obs is the one doing the eula-required stuff22:47
Stskeeps.h stuff normal user can get himself when installing SDK22:47
Stskeepsand then upload sources to OBS for sharing..22:47
Woody14619Safest route would be to forward on the EULA at the time of account creation/access.  On hit, one check box, everybody is happy, including lawyers. ;)22:48
Stskeepsif a user hasn't accepted EULA and 'cat /usr/include/EGL/egl.h', he doesn't have license for it anyway22:48
Stskeeps.. but we're nitpicking22:48
Stskeepsjust saying, it's really not that complicated22:49
Woody14619Yup... like I said.. simpler to say "don't do bad things" at account create time... CYA legally, everyone is happy. :)22:49
Stskeepswe already do EULA-less builds on autobuilder, FWIW...22:50
Woody14619I've accepted the MS EULA so many times, if I have kids MS could come take them at this point...  :P22:50
Estel_BTw, Stskeeps, totally unrelated to on-topic discussion22:51
Woody14619lol :)  Well, for some devices that may be.  For Freemantle.. many probably could be, but some won't.22:51
Estel_Most of people i know that tried "migrating" from Maemo to Nemo@Mer felt overall dissapointed by UX (Nemo), feeling that it's dubmed down, less usable, etc etc... Especially, that most of the where jumping from CSSu-enchanced Hildon22:52
Estel_considering this alck of everyday usability, porting/writing programs is obstructed22:52
Woody14619lol... nice article... I fit one or two of those bits a few years ago I think. :P22:52
Estel_migrating from .deb also doesn't help22:52
Estel_Aren't You afraid of software void?22:52
Estel_I *do* know, that Mer is superior to Maemo in terms of running mobile computer - even with phone function...22:53
Estel_But, for actual, everyday usability, even for super-power user, Open UI seems like quite a roadblock22:53
Estel_Stskeeps, keep in mind that i'm total noob @ Mer/Nemo22:54
Estel_So scratch anything I say when approriate, and fix me22:54
StskeepsEstel_: well, honestly we didn't have any UI designers, so that didn't help the situation22:54
* Estel_ nods22:54
Stskeeps(sorry, was in the bathroom..)22:54
Estel_I hope You understand that i'm not accusing, nor proving that "Maemo is better"22:54
Estel_in fact, i know that Mer *can* and *should* be better22:55
Stskeepssure, and it is22:55
Stskeepsnemo doesn't reflect on mer quality just because the UI is bad :)22:55
Stskeepsnemo's just a project using mer22:55
Estel_well, that was what i've tired to say politely ;)22:55
Stskeepsi agree, fwiw, but frankly.. this is what we get with a fragmented community, using a toolkit (MTF) that is deprecated for many main apps, and intel changing plans..22:56
Stskeepsdoing good open source ui is hard - just look at Plasma Active22:56
Stskeepsthis is a big community with artists, and still it looks like it's from the 90s22:56
Estel_OTOH we have things like Cordia, that looks like going to be in beta stage around 1254 A.D.22:57
Stskeepsand we had 20+ people working on nemo in different areas22:57
Stskeepscommunity was too fragmented and it was difficult to difficult to get involved due to MTF and no QML components..22:57
Stskeepsbut those things are fixed now22:58
Estel_Frankly, any idea what would help here? Except for some big manufacturer writing next closed or semi-closed - like Hildon - UI for Mer? (which wouldn't be best, and, in fact, doesn't seem quite possible for upcoming years)22:58
Stskeepsnow the sad part is that because we had to focus on UI instead of hardware adaptation, n9/n950 isn't properly supported22:58
Stskeepsand well, feb11 which caused a lot of people to leave..22:58
Stskeepsso, well22:58
Stskeepsi hope people enjoyed android work, but it wouldn't ever gain them a day to day solution..22:58
Stskeepsthat's qml22:59
Stskeepswe also have lipstick, which enables people to do any kind of homescreen22:59
Estel_ah, yea, I remember it23:00
Stskeepsso, given the fact i'm no longer able to do any hw adaptation work on closed side for n900/n9/n950, there's not a terribly lot we can do23:00
Stskeepsbut we do work on mer and to some extent nemo, or ui's based around nemo things23:00
Stskeepslike the components, theme, window manager23:00
Stskeepsas this makes sense in other projects/experimental uis23:00
Estel_another "hard" question - so what device is going to be "properly" support first? vivaldi with plasma active?23:00
Stskeepsdunno, n900 hardware adaptation is pretty damn good23:01
Estel_or we're at stage, where talking about fully supported device is premature?23:01
Estel_ah, yea23:01
Stskeepsmer doesn't contain hardware adaptations out of choice23:01
Estel_OTOH, Nemo is multi-touch optimised, reportedly23:01
Stskeepsie, vivaldi isn't part of mer23:01
Stskeepsbut i do know there's people doing commercial products on mer23:01
Stskeepsand even hiring for them23:02
Estel_I see. I wonder what it will turn into.23:02
Stskeepsso, yeah, it did lead somewhere finally23:02
Stskeepshopefully we'll see a nice mer-based mobile device of some kind in the future23:03
Stskeepsi know for sure i'd like to buy one of those mer-based TVs/STBs that are under development..23:03
Estel_so, as a coding noon - unfortunatelyt - who is going to have harmattan device soon, if I want to try with Mer/Nemo and contirbute by etsting, reporting bugs, suggesting etc...23:03
Estel_i'm better with installing it on N900 than N950?23:03
Stskeepsyeah, shouldn't be a problem23:03
Stskeepsyou can even run it in a virtual machine23:03
Stskeepsi'm planning on porting wayland to omap3 again23:04
Estel_yes, i'm aware of it23:04
Stskeepsusing my n900 at home23:04
Estel_hm, sounds nice23:04
Stskeepsso yeah..23:05
Estel_BTW, Mer TV/STB sound nice, if they don't manage to close it as much as possible for end user ;)23:05
Stskeepsdunno, we don't impose things on vendors23:05
Estel_I know, It's good thing from one side of coin ;023:05
Estel_Well, I still belive in dream of community designing own device (basing what is applicable from already open hardware, like parts of RPi or Open Pandora or Openmoko), that coulc be powered by Mer ;)23:06
Stskeepseither way.. the thing i've learnt from all this: aftermarket hardware adaptation is hard23:06
Stskeepsif you have to have open hardware, it has to be open from the start23:06
Stskeepswe had the people who -made- the n900 hardware work for fremantle23:07
Stskeepsand yet we had difficulty on a higher kernel23:07
Stskeepsbut in honestly: we really did this n900 work for the good of the community, to make sure that they'd be the first device that wouldn't be left behind23:08
Stskeepsand n900 is possibly the most hackable device ever, due to this23:08
Stskeepshaving modern OS images still being built for it, is a miracle for nokia devices :P23:09
Stskeepsand people, if they don't like nemo, can do their own stack23:09
Stskeepslike focus on qml components, new homescreen, etc23:10
Stskeepsthey can't possibly do a worse job handling it than nokia did :)23:10
Estel_yea, seems so23:11
Estel_And N9/50? from what You've said, it's hardware adaptation isn't going to be as good anytime soon/ever?23:12
Stskeepswhich sucks23:12
Stskeepsit's quite good but stuck on .32 kernel23:12
Estel_a little, considering resources (memory) on those devices. But, well, anyway, we know who to blame for that ;)23:12
Stskeepsit wasn't with my good will, but intel hired so many of the nokia kernel team after feb11..23:13
Stskeepsso there wasn't much of a choice23:13
Stskeepsso it goes23:15
Estel_of course23:17
Estel_well, we really need to forget about Nokia (Mer guys seems to have this done much earlier)23:18
Stskeepsish.. we were allowed to work on mer as part of the community edition work23:19
Stskeepsit meant we could work with it in work time and put a lot of time into it23:19
Stskeepsso i'm actually more thankful23:19
Estel_Of course, I'm also aware of that23:20
Estel_I'm rather talking about present day, unfortunately23:20
Stskeepsqt seems to continue for the while being23:20
Stskeepsand i'm confident we'll see qt523:21
Estel_Do You expect Qt being able to live and evolve even if, at some point in future, it can face 0 big company (monetary) support?23:21
Estel_I hope so23:21
Estel_after all, I couldn't stand everything being java :P23:22
Stskeepsyes, i think so23:22
Stskeepsit has the right caliber open source project by now23:22
Stskeepssilly question, is one of your personal major languages german?23:22
Stskeepsjust wondering why you're always capitalizing You23:23
Stskeepsit isn't like that in polish, at least23:23
Estel_no, not silly :p23:24
Estel_well, in fact, it's coming from respectful form in Polish writing23:24
Estel_letters, etc23:24
Estel_sometimes, documents23:24
Stskeepsah, so Pan/Pani..23:24
Stskeepsgot it23:24
Estel_You, He, She, etc is capitalised there23:24
Estel_I know it's silly, i just can't get rid of that behavior ;)23:25
Estel_call it personal folklore of mine 9I'm aware, that it's gramma error, in fact)23:25
Estel_grandma, lol23:25
Estel_need to excuse you - i'm going to transfer my N90 0entity into another mothertboard (former one was badly damaged during CNc experiments - had to cut-off part of motherboard with charging chip and usb port)23:30
Stskeepsi'm here for QtCS so bored in hotel room, hence why im here :P23:31
Estel_well, the fact that only thing that can replace my N900 is another N900's motherboard out into my modified N900 body tells something about state of currently offered mobile devices :P{23:31

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