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| ivgalvez | hi everyone | 21:02 |
|---|---|---|
| SD69 | hello | 21:02 |
| Stskeeps | evening | 21:02 |
| NielDK | hi | 21:02 |
| Stskeeps | which meeting is happening? | 21:02 |
| NielDK | council meeting | 21:02 |
| Stskeeps | alright | 21:02 |
| Woody14619 | yup | 21:03 |
| Woody14619 | Estel_, SD69... I think we're all here... wakey wakey. :) | 21:03 |
| SD69 | hello | 21:04 |
| NielDK | yep | 21:04 |
| NielDK | up | 21:04 |
| ivgalvez | I have just addressed the issue about promotion of applications depending on non-free packages, just in time for the meeting :) | 21:04 |
| Woody14619 | OKey... Lets setup agenda then? Estel_ can add when he arrives? | 21:05 |
| Woody14619 | Item 1> package promtion issues. | 21:05 |
| NielDK | and the winnings :) well done! | 21:05 |
| Woody14619 | Item 2> CA wrap-up and other happyness. | 21:05 |
| Woody14619 | Item 3> Open questions. | 21:05 |
| Woody14619 | #start maemo Council meeting | 21:06 |
| Woody14619 | Topic 1> package promotion issues: Ivan? | 21:06 |
| ivgalvez | Fortunately we have finished the nightmare of CA | 21:06 |
| ivgalvez | it took a lot of time | 21:06 |
| ivgalvez | now I'm back to promotion of packages | 21:07 |
| ivgalvez | issue discussed at previous meeting has been addressed to X-Fade | 21:07 |
| ivgalvez | now we need to wait for his answer | 21:07 |
| Woody14619 | Want to do a quick summary? I mailed X-Fade, but didn't get a direct responce. But I know it at least he did see it. :) | 21:07 |
| ivgalvez | summary: | 21:08 |
| ivgalvez | Apparently it's not possible to promote applications to Extras if they depend on non-free packages | 21:08 |
| ivgalvez | This is blocking further improvements to package qt-components for Fremantle. | 21:08 |
| ivgalvez | Now that Nokia has granted permission to package Harmattan icons and Nokia Pure fonts, they could be used as dependencies to improve compatibility of Harmattan applications in Fremantle. | 21:08 |
| Stskeeps | have you guys considered to use the nemo qml components theme instead? | 21:08 |
| ivgalvez | particularly it's blocking meecolay development | 21:08 |
| Stskeeps | it's not commercial/non-free | 21:08 |
| Stskeeps | and works just fine | 21:08 |
| Woody14619 | From the monday OBS meeting, he noted once OBS is in, this goes away. But for now it may have to be a manual push by him. | 21:09 |
| ivgalvez | it's already packaged with qt-components | 21:09 |
| ivgalvez | I mean | 21:09 |
| ivgalvez | nemo qml components | 21:09 |
| Woody14619 | Stskeeps: This is from another maintainer, but we could always suggest it. :) | 21:09 |
| Stskeeps | ok, because we just use droid fonts and things work fine | 21:09 |
| Stskeeps | (that's about what i had) | 21:09 |
| ivgalvez | but Harmattan theme is supposed to improve compatibility of Harmattan applications in Fremantle | 21:10 |
| Stskeeps | nemo qml -theme- i mean | 21:10 |
| ivgalvez | in any case, depending on non-free stuff is not so strange | 21:10 |
| ivgalvez | for example games | 21:10 |
| ivgalvez | with open source engine | 21:10 |
| ivgalvez | and redistributable, yet closed, data | 21:10 |
| Stskeeps | correct | 21:11 |
| ivgalvez | so promotion should be possible | 21:11 |
| Woody14619 | stskeeps: I'll relay the idea to the maintainer non the less... I susspect he'll want to use the original theme though. Thank you for the suggesion though, as I don't think we were aware of it. | 21:11 |
| ivgalvez | now we have a new possible issue | 21:12 |
| Woody14619 | which is? | 21:12 |
| ivgalvez | with infrastructure | 21:12 |
| ivgalvez | granting permissions to upload packages to Extras devel | 21:12 |
| Woody14619 | This is the mult-day delay for a new account, right? | 21:12 |
| ivgalvez | txaizo, developer of Saera, is waiting to receive that permission | 21:12 |
| ivgalvez | yes, but there are two things to check | 21:13 |
| ivgalvez | first the email that is automatically sended | 21:13 |
| ivgalvez | saying something like "I'm no longer working at Nokia blah blah" | 21:13 |
| ivgalvez | which is confusing | 21:13 |
| Woody14619 | Yes, that has been there a while. | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | as it seems that you won't get the permission | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | and second, it's quite long now | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | I'll aske txaizo again | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | in my case, it took 3 or 4 days | 21:14 |
| Woody14619 | I signed up for an account weeks ago and got that message... that the system is no longer maintained, and that you will be given permissions in 3 days unless someone promotes it sooner. | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | yep | 21:14 |
| ivgalvez | we should change the text | 21:14 |
| Stskeeps | (what email do you get that from, out of curiousity?) | 21:15 |
| Woody14619 | From signing up for a new garage, amoung other things. | 21:15 |
| ivgalvez | " I am leaving Nokia on 30th of April (unless my contract gets extended at the last minute)." | 21:15 |
| NielDK | i think he meant sender adress? | 21:15 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, what NielDK said | 21:15 |
| ivgalvez | arr | 21:16 |
| ivgalvez | ext-stefano.mosconi@nokia.com | 21:16 |
| Woody14619 | So, I'll try tagging him today and see if he still has the issue. If so, I'll talk to X-Fade about it on Monday at OBS. | 21:16 |
| Stskeeps | ah, interesting | 21:16 |
| Woody14619 | Could just be things got jammed and need a kick to get it going again. | 21:16 |
| ivgalvez | sounds like รง2the end is coming" | 21:16 |
| ivgalvez | nothing more from my side for point 1 | 21:17 |
| * Woody14619 nods... thus the push to get OBS done ASAP. Removes lots of the older legacy stuff that's not maintained now. | 21:17 | |
| Woody14619 | K, topic 2> CA wrap-up | 21:17 |
| Woody14619 | Ivan, I think we're good with sending the list as is (minus one person?) to Quim | 21:17 |
| ivgalvez | yes, already sended | 21:18 |
| Woody14619 | I haven't been able to check mail, but once FC makes his return official, we can move on that as well. | 21:18 |
| ivgalvez | with additional explanations about fcrochik device, you all are cc'ed | 21:18 |
| Woody14619 | K. | 21:18 |
| ivgalvez | so you don't know, don't you? | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | Thank you again for all the work and effort you put into this. Having 90% of the data organized and ready was a huge help to everyone. | 21:19 |
| ivgalvez | fcrochick has donated his device to Coding Competition | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | No, again, didn't catch up on mail since last night. :) | 21:19 |
| Woody14619 | Ahh... OK. :) That works too then. | 21:19 |
| SD69 | yes, thanks for the work on the community awards data | 21:19 |
| ivgalvez | well, now we are hated | 21:20 |
| Woody14619 | In fact, given the royal mess in TMO, almost works better. :) | 21:20 |
| Woody14619 | Lol... Ivan.. I assumed as much when I took the job. ;) | 21:20 |
| NielDK | right | 21:20 |
| Woody14619 | Nobody is ever happy with leaders. It starts 10 minutes after polls close. :D | 21:20 |
| NielDK | the hate will always appear, but from a few ppl i woukd say | 21:21 |
| * Woody14619 nods. For every person posting negativly, there are those posting positivly as well. | 21:21 | |
| Woody14619 | It's just the negative ones post a lot more, and are "louder". | 21:21 |
| Woody14619 | In a week, it will be forgotten... | 21:22 |
| ivgalvez | and gazillions that don't care | 21:22 |
| ivgalvez | Arie is triyng to run his own Harmattan Council | 21:22 |
| ivgalvez | pretty sad | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | Which, for someone who is "no longer using his N9" will be quite a feat... | 21:22 |
| Woody14619 | But, that is what it is... no need to bring it up here.. :) | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | I susspect most of the Harmattan camp is actually quite happy with how things went. | 21:23 |
| ivgalvez | let's move | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | K... I want to inject one more item: OBS status | 21:23 |
| Woody14619 | I've been following this one... it took a minor his this past week as Niel has been putting fires out on his side after the Nokia announcment. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | But we're hoping to have things moving in a higher gear asap. | 21:24 |
| Woody14619 | I've lined up some folks to document and test documentation (both are univ guys that just finished up & are free for a few weeks now) | 21:24 |
| ivgalvez | I have a question here, once running, if we need to move to a diferent infrastructure how difficult will it be | 21:25 |
| ivgalvez | i mean out of maemo.org servers | 21:25 |
| Woody14619 | So, the hope is we can get that rolling, life will be nicer. | 21:25 |
| NielDK | just to clarify. Not me youre reffering to? | 21:25 |
| Stskeeps | ivgalvez: i think you need to look at what services need to continue really.. server space only x-fade can really answer | 21:25 |
| Woody14619 | It will still be on maemo.org servers, as will repos, but it will be easier to manage. Garages go away, etc. | 21:26 |
| SD69 | what do you mean different infrastructure? | 21:26 |
| Woody14619 | Nieldk, correct... X-Fade is also named Niel. ;) | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | Niels | 21:26 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:26 |
| Woody14619 | doah! My bad. :) Yes, Niels.... | 21:26 |
| ivgalvez | SD69: if servers are shut down, how difficult is to move to a different place? | 21:26 |
| SD69 | we were alreay thinking of throwing the cOBS servers into a joint project with Mer | 21:26 |
| Woody14619 | The nice part about cOBS is that it's more flexable and more portable, once packaged. | 21:27 |
| ivgalvez | ok | 21:27 |
| Stskeeps | since we're on this topic.. perhaps it would be valuable to see what the general community would pitch in per month for a shared resource | 21:27 |
| Stskeeps | as that will show what you can really have in a non-nokia scenario | 21:27 |
| Stskeeps | it is for the benefit of them and everybody else, so | 21:28 |
| SD69 | stskeeps: I don't think we'll have much trouble doing a few hundred euros per month | 21:28 |
| Woody14619 | stskeeps, we have been discussing things like that already... But the hard part is where to ask. TMO? The crazys would be out in force... | 21:28 |
| NielDK | if we need new hosting and servers. someone give me more details might be able to find sponsor | 21:28 |
| SD69 | plus the servers may (or not) be donated by Nokia | 21:28 |
| Stskeeps | Woody14619: that's what average for :P | 21:28 |
| Stskeeps | +is | 21:29 |
| ivgalvez | before starting all that stuff, I think we must otline the plans for transisition | 21:29 |
| ivgalvez | outline | 21:29 |
| ivgalvez | first of all is the legal stuff | 21:29 |
| Stskeeps | i think you could get fairly beefy farm if you put the hat around.. | 21:29 |
| Woody14619 | I agree.. which is the major task for this week, yes? I'd really like to have most of that fleshed out already. | 21:29 |
| ivgalvez | before any funding activity, otherwise we will be accused of taking the money and run | 21:30 |
| Stskeeps | ivgalvez: seperate bank account, scan account statements.. | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | stskeeps: there are tons of options. One could be a recurring minor thing setup (like a $X/month style donation). Enough of those and you have a reliable stream w/o anyone going broke. | 21:31 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 21:31 |
| Stskeeps | Mer budget is 300 EUR/month and we have a fairly large amount of package builds | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | I know several groups that do that and cover all their infra costs (a-infos, being one example). | 21:31 |
| Woody14619 | And we really do need to link up with Mer on this. | 21:32 |
| Woody14619 | Stskeeps, you're involved with them, right.. when are their meetings again? | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | we've had a bit of a break, vgrade has been very busy, but you're also welcome to suggest a date | 21:32 |
| Stskeeps | frankly, if we can find common ground of 300 EUR a month total, we can handle a lot.. | 21:33 |
| Woody14619 | Well avoiding Mon/Fri would be best, doing to meetings in combo is hard, even on IRC. | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | for a community obs that's fremantle/harmattan/mer | 21:33 |
| Woody14619 | Do you have a minutes log somewhere like OBS & council have? To catch up with? | 21:33 |
| Stskeeps | sec | 21:34 |
| * Woody14619 really loves that idea... for tons of reasons. | 21:34 | |
| SD69 | woody14619: there's a Mer mailing list and you can subscribe to that to get the info | 21:34 |
| Stskeeps | http://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg00367.html has all the community OBS meetings | 21:34 |
| Stskeeps | for various reasons we want to have it semi-seperate from Mer due to legal action (remember chromium?) as to not risk our own project | 21:35 |
| Woody14619 | Thank you stskeeps. :) I'll look over it. Others here may want to as well if you haven't already been following in. | 21:35 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 21:35 |
| Woody14619 | And we'll probably want something similar, for the same reasons.. but overall, I think resource sharing (especially fremantle/harmattan) makes sense, with the closed bits all belonging to Nokia... | 21:36 |
| Woody14619 | Of course, with the rate they're going... may not be a worry anyway... | 21:37 |
| ivgalvez | I see the following points to be addressed before the any transition takes place: | 21:38 |
| ivgalvez | 1 - Legal situation of maemo community. Are we going to constitute a legal entity on it's own? | 21:38 |
| ivgalvez | 2 - Funding activities. An specific working group should be created to control them. | 21:38 |
| ivgalvez | 3 - Redistribution of software packages and tools. | 21:38 |
| ivgalvez | A technical working group should analize what is needed to guarantee maintenance of Maemo and Harmattan devices and prepare a lis tof packages we need to be able to redistribute. | 21:38 |
| ivgalvez | Those copyrighted by Nokia can be addresed to Quim Gil, but those from third parties will requiere to work on contacting them and ask for redistribution permission. | 21:38 |
| SD69 | I don't think there's much chance of getting redistribution permission now | 21:39 |
| Stskeeps | in terms of 3rd party the only one you should worry about is SGX and you can succesfully emulate that in OBS with Mesa. | 21:39 |
| Woody14619 | I think everything used in the OBS is redistributable by Nokia, like the images one gets from their site. But it's to a person, not a group. | 21:39 |
| ivgalvez | It's not the same than releasing the sources | 21:39 |
| NielDK | zero Quim already said | 21:40 |
| ivgalvez | TI could provide permission to redistribute the drivers for N900 devices for example | 21:40 |
| Stskeeps | the rest is nokia binaries and i honestly think you don't have to worry.. | 21:40 |
| Stskeeps | nothing that can't be fixed with a EULA | 21:40 |
| Stskeeps | we already had a similar talk with nokia in old mer | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | so, in that reguard, it may be more doable... I think we've isloated that stuff pretty well, from what I've read on the OBS side. | 21:41 |
| Woody14619 | I'm almost more worried about SB2 long term than the Nokia SDK blobs... :P | 21:41 |
| Stskeeps | i've worked on SB2 stuff, met with sb2 author last week | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | and we're working to properly establish wiki, mailing list, documentation, etc | 21:42 |
| Stskeeps | sb2 is intensively used in mer, so not going away from that side | 21:42 |
| Woody14619 | As fif X-fade, which was great... but there was concern that the SB2 we need for fremantle may be... relegated to a shelf based on Nokia's annoucement.. so. | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | s/fif/did/ | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | right, i wouldn't worry | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | :) I'll take all the reassurance I can get at this point. ;) | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | K. So, one quick maintainanace issue: AI review... | 21:43 |
| Woody14619 | Looks like all AI from last week were done. | 21:44 |
| SD69 | I'll take 1- legal and I think Niel said he would take 2- funding | 21:44 |
| NielDK | yes | 21:44 |
| Woody14619 | Niel, thank you for the research on IRC policies and such. | 21:44 |
| ivgalvez | yes it's pretty complete | 21:44 |
| Woody14619 | I think that's progressing well, though low priority. | 21:44 |
| NielDK | thanks for making it better ;) | 21:45 |
| Woody14619 | on what sd69 was saying, I'm willing to work on topic 3 for a bit, but will happily step asside for someone more familar with it if they emerge. | 21:45 |
| Woody14619 | Everything else is done. :) | 21:45 |
| SD69 | When we get a chance, I'll relay some comments received from SFLC on maemo reorganization | 21:46 |
| ivgalvez | OK, is anything else you need from me? | 21:46 |
| Woody14619 | so... that said. Any further topics? Input from the community, rotten fruit someone wants to throw? | 21:46 |
| Woody14619 | Seeing none, we'll close the meeting then? | 21:47 |
| SD69 | SFC is interested if maemo can have a truly FOSS output | 21:47 |
| ivgalvez | OK, bye then | 21:47 |
| ivgalvez | cheers | 21:47 |
| *** ivgalvez has quit IRC | 21:47 | |
| Woody14619 | Given the nature of Maemo, I don't think it can really... | 21:47 |
| Woody14619 | Not by pure standards... Would be great if we could and retain all functionality though. | 21:48 |
| Woody14619 | But the GSM and SGX stuff alone would preclude that no? | 21:48 |
| Woody14619 | #end maemo meeting? | 21:48 |
| Stskeeps | SD69: output of the community sure, but what they base on..? | 21:48 |
| * Woody14619 nods | 21:49 | |
| Stskeeps | not likely | 21:49 |
| NielDK | *nods* | 21:49 |
| SD69 | stskeeps: that's the key issue | 21:49 |
| Stskeeps | perhaps look to how communities which build on top of windows ? | 21:50 |
| Stskeeps | similar issues | 21:50 |
| Woody14619 | We have lots of nice FOSS tools out there now. Some are super cross-platform. Mondrana, for instance, runs on everything from GTA02 to android (N9* and N8*0 included, if you attach a gsp dongle. ;) | 21:50 |
| SD69 | we need to decide what the reorganization will be doing, particularly wrt FOSS | 21:50 |
| SD69 | if it's just supporting old Nokia maemo products or forward looking mobile linux? | 21:51 |
| Woody14619 | True... | 21:51 |
| Stskeeps | my personal view is that maemo.org is a service community, by the community, for the community, surrounding their devices.. there's no real software product the community can truly and fully govern and modify | 21:51 |
| Stskeeps | .. sorry if i'm intruding too much | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | Frankly, I think it will be hard enough to get coverage for Nokia products, yet alone start with bundled in other concept. | 21:52 |
| Woody14619 | To some degree, we're already doing that by looking at linking up with Mer and others... But those are still all rooted in the same place initially, even if they've diverged a lot since then. | 21:53 |
| SD69 | well then, we need a mechanism for the community to decide | 21:53 |
| Woody14619 | No, stskeeps, I think your input is essential on thise. :) | 21:53 |
| Woody14619 | I think the community will be open to adding new things.. and I think that will happen reguardless over time. | 21:53 |
| NielDK | have to leave you guys, see you next friday | 21:54 |
| Stskeeps | and those of us who did software development in the community that could be governed and modified left the boat in order to be able to start a community a-fresh without extreme expectations/entitlement syndromes.. | 21:54 |
| Woody14619 | But the initial startup, I think we need to focus on keeping the base we have, while leaving the wording open enough to later include more branches as they appear. | 21:54 |
| Stskeeps | so that makes life even more difficult.. | 21:54 |
| *** NielDK has quit IRC | 21:55 | |
| SD69 | stskeeps: I agree but we have to decide what to do with maemo.org | 21:55 |
| Stskeeps | make a plan how maemo.org looks in 3, 6, 9 and 12 months and go from there, perhaps | 21:55 |
| Stskeeps | and make data points of how many likely users are around, their needs | 21:55 |
| Woody14619 | which is what quim was trying to do last month on TMO... | 21:56 |
| Woody14619 | .oO(It was like showing a cat how a blender works... never a good idea...) | 21:56 |
| SD69 | in order to get support for a new entity, we need to establish a mission or purpose for it | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | find a way to continue the forum, the apps story, the wiki maybe, and making sure that nokia's deliverables (firmware images, SDK, etc) can stay up somehow | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | the latter isn't really many pennies | 21:57 |
| SD69 | stskeeps: for what purpose? to support the legacy maemo products, right? | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | right | 21:58 |
| Stskeeps | apps being 'extras', sorry, too much brainwashing :P | 21:58 |
| SD69 | that will be a project doomed to disappear someday | 21:58 |
| Woody14619 | Again, we can always word it to cover the community as a continuation community for now, but leave the door open for it to change in the future. | 21:59 |
| Stskeeps | it is, but it may spawn other projects like maemo.org has | 21:59 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: all things die. It's just a matter of when. | 21:59 |
| Stskeeps | as people get together | 21:59 |
| Woody14619 | tablet talk, for example... | 21:59 |
| Stskeeps | cover what the community -needs- to do, then it can start acting as incubation afterwards | 22:00 |
| * Woody14619 nods | 22:00 | |
| SD69 | we need a mechanism for the community to make this decision | 22:00 |
| SD69 | perhaps a referendum? | 22:01 |
| Woody14619 | Frankly, I'd even preserve Council as the body elect, even if there's no Nokia to talk to. Council really isn't about talking to Nokia these days as much as it is leading and gathering concensus. | 22:01 |
| Stskeeps | i'm much about open, but honestly.. i think council could decide on the future | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | referendums are likely to be completely derailed in community atm, by very very vocal minority | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | leaving those who would actually care and vote apathic | 22:03 |
| Woody14619 | Normally, I'd be about a referendum... But in this case, I have to agree with stskeeps. | 22:03 |
| SD69 | woody14619: to do what, decide the future of maemo.org within council? | 22:04 |
| Woody14619 | That, or we really need to get a more accessable voting machine, since decisions like this will come up often... | 22:04 |
| Woody14619 | Again, like many things, I think we need to act in a more leading role. Asking "what do you want" is inviting a circus. Propsing two or three routes and asking "which do you want" is far more usefull. | 22:05 |
| Woody14619 | And I don't think that a choice will be one of the 2 or 3, but that it will give enough structure that it doesn't go off the rails as easily. | 22:05 |
| SD69 | So who will propose the 2 or 3 choices? | 22:07 |
| Woody14619 | I think, in the end, we're going to wind up with an intially backward-focused group, looking to maintain what we have now, that can be flexible enough to embrace the next generation when it comes along. | 22:07 |
| Stskeeps | Woody14619: i think anything remotely nokia next generation is kinda out the window by now, so it's better to think about what community could support/framework for new innovation.. | 22:08 |
| SD69 | I agree with stskeeps - it's either legacy Nokia/maemo or it's | 22:08 |
| SD69 | forward looking | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | I'm not limiting to Nokia on that... and I'm good with framework stuff too... | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | I don't see why it has to be one or the other, and not both. | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | SD69: 2 or 3 choices, council, IMHO | 22:09 |
| Woody14619 | Exactly. | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | best thing to do is to ensure survival and frankly, if you don't do it now, maemo.org could be gone in 6 months.. | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:09 |
| SD69 | you mean - we put the 2 or 3 choices out to the community for discussion, and then council votes?? | 22:10 |
| Stskeeps | SD69: no, council puts out 2 or 3 choices and referendum, perhaps | 22:10 |
| Stskeeps | something concrete to vote upon | 22:10 |
| Woody14619 | Survivial, right now, is legacy. If we make a forward looking group without support for legacy, the exisiting group goes away. | 22:10 |
| Stskeeps | like, a direction to take | 22:10 |
| Woody14619 | exactly. | 22:10 |
| SD69 | woody14619: I'm not asking for your substantive opinion, I'm asking about process | 22:11 |
| SD69 | and where did rest of council go? | 22:11 |
| Woody14619 | ?? You just said it's either legacy or forward looking... I commented that black/white model is not requried. | 22:12 |
| SD69 | then what would be the 2 or 3 choices for the referendum? | 22:12 |
| Woody14619 | Ivan & Niel left a while ago... Estel_ was MIA the whole meeting. | 22:12 |
| Woody14619 | Well, it sounds like we already have a couple options: | 22:13 |
| Woody14619 | 1> a purely legacy group, focused on Maemo (and maybe MeeGo?) | 22:13 |
| Woody14619 | 2> a group focused on framework (like Mer) the build out existing stuff up for new hardware (corp or inovative, like RasPi) | 22:14 |
| Stskeeps | 3, both? | 22:15 |
| Woody14619 | 3> a group that's more about following future trends in tablets & smart phones (back to ITT model) | 22:15 |
| Woody14619 | Yeah.. that could work for 3 as well.. :) | 22:15 |
| Stskeeps | though 1> needs to be first priority for sure.. (my opinion) | 22:16 |
| Stskeeps | for the while being | 22:16 |
| Woody14619 | Or even presenting them split like this, to encourage the concept of merging. | 22:17 |
| Woody14619 | As I said, I'm for forming as 1, with the option to pick up 2 or 3 once 1 is stable. | 22:17 |
| SD69 | so shall we suggest discussion of 4 choices where 3) is both and 4) is ITT model? | 22:18 |
| Stskeeps | would be good to accompany each with what needs to be done, what services shut down, etc, in each | 22:18 |
| SD69 | woody14619: we're not deciding what to do; we're deciding what the choices will be for the referendum | 22:18 |
| Woody14619 | We could do it that way, or as I noted, encourage the idea of merging as part of the proposal. (eg 1 and 2, or 1 and 4) | 22:18 |
| Woody14619 | sd69? Where and I saying we're deciding what do to? | 22:19 |
| Woody14619 | I was using my choice and an EXAMPLE of the merging I was talking about... not saying we dictate that into being... | 22:20 |
| Woody14619 | I susspect most people are going to want some form of choice 1 in any foundation we make. | 22:21 |
| SD69 | I suspect most people are going to want a clear mission statement before they support and/or donate money | 22:22 |
| Woody14619 | choosing between a framework type path and a hardware driven path though will be the harder part. | 22:22 |
| Stskeeps | SD69: makes sense | 22:23 |
| Woody14619 | Yes.. which is why we're discussing creating that mission statement now, right? And how to do that with community input. | 22:23 |
| Woody14619 | Without having a 3-rig circus where nothing gets decided.... (which is what's happened every other time this topic has come up) | 22:23 |
| Stskeeps | though on the opposite side you can look from co-operative side and decide based on who is doing active contribution (money, packages, wiki edits, karma..).. i guess referendum should do that | 22:24 |
| Stskeeps | as that's wjhat will matter in a future community that doesn't have big company backing.. | 22:25 |
| Stskeeps | ok, i'll shut up now and watch football game :P | 22:25 |
| Woody14619 | true... If, for example, we can get free hosting, etc, from a FOSS/framework group, it may make more sense to focuse on that route. But frankly, given the nature of the beasts, I don't see that happening. | 22:26 |
| SD69 | woody14619: does "3-ring circus" mean you want to avoid tmo? | 22:28 |
| Stskeeps | 3-ring circus meaning something to concentrate discussion around, rather | 22:28 |
| Stskeeps | easier to distinguish between endless trolling and something that's relevant to a pre-set topic | 22:28 |
| Woody14619 | No, but I don't want to present it as "What should we do" to TMO. Again, presenting options doesn't mean we must choose exactly one and only one. But walking in with 3 options vs a vauge "what to do" will make a huge difference. | 22:29 |
| Woody14619 | TMO will go crazy with it, no matter how hard we try to stop it. But if we present a set of options to discuss, we'll get a far clearer answer than if we just ask "what do you want", or present one option and ask for changes. | 22:31 |
| SD69 | OK, let's plan on that. | 22:31 |
| SD69 | we need agreement from absent council members first | 22:31 |
| SD69 | via email, I guess | 22:31 |
| Woody14619 | Agreed... I think it will make sense to them though. :) | 22:32 |
| *** Estel_ has quit IRC | 22:32 | |
| *** Estel_ has joined #maemo-meeting | 22:32 | |
| Woody14619 | Or maybe they'll have a better idea we're not seeing... who knows. | 22:32 |
| Estel_ | Sorry for being extremely late, gentlemans | 22:32 |
| Estel_ | my USB-less N900 decide to got filesystem corrupted to the point, where broken maemo e2fsprogs couldn't repair it | 22:33 |
| Estel_ | I'm reading logs, give me a 3 minutes and i;ll be up-date | 22:33 |
| Woody14619 | We're in post meeting discussions actually. Meeting went well. I'm doing minutes as we speak. | 22:33 |
| SD69 | Estel: we've wrapped up - ivan and neil left awhile ago | 22:34 |
| SD69 | I'll check in on email for curther discussion | 22:34 |
| SD69 | bye everyone | 22:34 |
| Woody14619 | k. :) | 22:35 |
| Woody14619 | Thanks again for your input stskeeps. Lots of good points and input, always appreciated. :) | 22:35 |
| *** SD69 has quit IRC | 22:36 | |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. i'd be doing a lot more but i just can't be arsed with abill_uk and some other people around on tmo.. | 22:37 |
| Stskeeps | http://blogs.oreilly.com/conferences/2006/07/oscon-how-open-source-projects.html | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | read that one and understand what it does to the community | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | there's a video around of the talk | 22:38 |
| Estel_ | Fully agree. Thanks a lot forYour input Stskeeps | 22:40 |
| Estel_ | and as for abil_uk and others, they have nice small ignore button :D | 22:41 |
| Stskeeps | doesn't help for the general community | 22:41 |
| Estel_ | Yep. | 22:41 |
| Stskeeps | still steals too much attention | 22:41 |
| Estel_ | Stskeeps, some time ago I've been thinking about fundraising for both Maemo and Mer ifnrastructure (one fundraising) | 22:41 |
| Estel_ | of course, after creating legal entity | 22:42 |
| Stskeeps | probably best to think of a community obs fundraising | 22:42 |
| Estel_ | javispedro seemed not interested, but, honestly, who @ Mer should we talk about it with? | 22:42 |
| Estel_ | yes. exactly that | 22:42 |
| Stskeeps | well, check out the links above in the meeting | 22:42 |
| Stskeeps | that explains our stance a bit more | 22:42 |
| Estel_ | most of Maemo folks understand, that OBs for both Maemo and Mer is beneficial | 22:42 |
| Estel_ | seen them already, and I agree with points mentioned there :) | 22:42 |
| Estel_ | honestly, I'm a bit worried about license for re-distributing system components | 22:43 |
| Estel_ | EULA etc | 22:43 |
| Estel_ | considering current state of Nokia... | 22:43 |
| Stskeeps | that one i wouldn't really worry about. only problem is SGX/GLES | 22:43 |
| Woody14619 | I think most of that's covered.... | 22:43 |
| Stskeeps | you're all at a point which i was at already in 2007 with old mer | 22:44 |
| Estel_ | so called "Nokia repos" isn't. Imagine that, one day, Qgil is replaced or, even more possible, we have no contact @ nokia at all | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | we were shocked to figure out that in practice, they're really not that evil | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | we overcomplicated matter | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | s | 22:44 |
| Estel_ | BTW, re-using Nokia closed bits for Nokia devices is exception, that can be revoked at any time | 22:44 |
| Estel_ | :P | 22:44 |
| Woody14619 | Yup... they won't care unless you start doing evil things.. and even then, it has to be worth their bother. | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | sure.. but if you really want to cover your ass then just accept EULA for SDK for the obs | 22:44 |
| Estel_ | I know they're not. I'm jsut worried that upon cutting, new people can just answer "no" no matter of question | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | and then disallow local builds of it | 22:45 |
| Estel_ | hm, sounds like an option | 22:45 |
| Woody14619 | Yup... pass the EULA along, just like the Nokia site does for firmware images and the like. | 22:45 |
| Estel_ | Right, haven't though about that | 22:45 |
| Stskeeps | Woody14619: not even that.. there is no good reason why the user even needs to get in toch with the binaries | 22:45 |
| Estel_ | thought* | 22:45 |
| Stskeeps | the obs is the one doing the builds.. | 22:45 |
| Woody14619 | True... but some stuff (like the SGX) I think even access to the .h files is enough to requre EULA. | 22:46 |
| Woody14619 | And those would have to be accessable, or easily could be with a compiler directive. ;) | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | Woody14619: sure, but i'm again saying.. it's a build farm | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | the obs is the one doing the eula-required stuff | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | .h stuff normal user can get himself when installing SDK | 22:47 |
| Stskeeps | and then upload sources to OBS for sharing.. | 22:47 |
| Woody14619 | Safest route would be to forward on the EULA at the time of account creation/access. On hit, one check box, everybody is happy, including lawyers. ;) | 22:48 |
| Stskeeps | if a user hasn't accepted EULA and 'cat /usr/include/EGL/egl.h', he doesn't have license for it anyway | 22:48 |
| Stskeeps | .. but we're nitpicking | 22:48 |
| Stskeeps | just saying, it's really not that complicated | 22:49 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:49 |
| Woody14619 | Yup... like I said.. simpler to say "don't do bad things" at account create time... CYA legally, everyone is happy. :) | 22:49 |
| Stskeeps | we already do EULA-less builds on autobuilder, FWIW... | 22:50 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:50 |
| Woody14619 | I've accepted the MS EULA so many times, if I have kids MS could come take them at this point... :P | 22:50 |
| Estel_ | BTw, Stskeeps, totally unrelated to on-topic discussion | 22:51 |
| Woody14619 | lol :) Well, for some devices that may be. For Freemantle.. many probably could be, but some won't. | 22:51 |
| Estel_ | Most of people i know that tried "migrating" from Maemo to Nemo@Mer felt overall dissapointed by UX (Nemo), feeling that it's dubmed down, less usable, etc etc... Especially, that most of the where jumping from CSSu-enchanced Hildon | 22:52 |
| Estel_ | considering this alck of everyday usability, porting/writing programs is obstructed | 22:52 |
| Woody14619 | lol... nice article... I fit one or two of those bits a few years ago I think. :P | 22:52 |
| Estel_ | migrating from .deb also doesn't help | 22:52 |
| Estel_ | Aren't You afraid of software void? | 22:52 |
| Estel_ | I *do* know, that Mer is superior to Maemo in terms of running mobile computer - even with phone function... | 22:53 |
| Estel_ | But, for actual, everyday usability, even for super-power user, Open UI seems like quite a roadblock | 22:53 |
| Estel_ | Stskeeps, keep in mind that i'm total noob @ Mer/Nemo | 22:54 |
| Estel_ | So scratch anything I say when approriate, and fix me | 22:54 |
| Stskeeps | Estel_: well, honestly we didn't have any UI designers, so that didn't help the situation | 22:54 |
| * Estel_ nods | 22:54 | |
| Stskeeps | (sorry, was in the bathroom..) | 22:54 |
| Estel_ | I hope You understand that i'm not accusing, nor proving that "Maemo is better" | 22:54 |
| Estel_ | in fact, i know that Mer *can* and *should* be better | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | sure, and it is | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | nemo doesn't reflect on mer quality just because the UI is bad :) | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | nemo's just a project using mer | 22:55 |
| Estel_ | well, that was what i've tired to say politely ;) | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | i agree, fwiw, but frankly.. this is what we get with a fragmented community, using a toolkit (MTF) that is deprecated for many main apps, and intel changing plans.. | 22:56 |
| Stskeeps | doing good open source ui is hard - just look at Plasma Active | 22:56 |
| Estel_ | yea | 22:56 |
| Stskeeps | this is a big community with artists, and still it looks like it's from the 90s | 22:56 |
| Estel_ | OTOH we have things like Cordia, that looks like going to be in beta stage around 1254 A.D. | 22:57 |
| Estel_ | s/1254/2154/ | 22:57 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. | 22:57 |
| Stskeeps | and we had 20+ people working on nemo in different areas | 22:57 |
| Stskeeps | community was too fragmented and it was difficult to difficult to get involved due to MTF and no QML components.. | 22:57 |
| Stskeeps | but those things are fixed now | 22:58 |
| Estel_ | Frankly, any idea what would help here? Except for some big manufacturer writing next closed or semi-closed - like Hildon - UI for Mer? (which wouldn't be best, and, in fact, doesn't seem quite possible for upcoming years) | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | now the sad part is that because we had to focus on UI instead of hardware adaptation, n9/n950 isn't properly supported | 22:58 |
| Estel_ | yea | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | and well, feb11 which caused a lot of people to leave.. | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | so, well | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | i hope people enjoyed android work, but it wouldn't ever gain them a day to day solution.. | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:58 |
| Estel_ | yea... | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zr--kxeh0vU | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | that's qml | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | we also have lipstick, which enables people to do any kind of homescreen | 22:59 |
| Estel_ | ah, yea, I remember it | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | so, given the fact i'm no longer able to do any hw adaptation work on closed side for n900/n9/n950, there's not a terribly lot we can do | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | but we do work on mer and to some extent nemo, or ui's based around nemo things | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | like the components, theme, window manager | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | as this makes sense in other projects/experimental uis | 23:00 |
| Estel_ | another "hard" question - so what device is going to be "properly" support first? vivaldi with plasma active? | 23:00 |
| Stskeeps | dunno, n900 hardware adaptation is pretty damn good | 23:01 |
| Estel_ | or we're at stage, where talking about fully supported device is premature? | 23:01 |
| Estel_ | ah, yea | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | mer doesn't contain hardware adaptations out of choice | 23:01 |
| Estel_ | OTOH, Nemo is multi-touch optimised, reportedly | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | ie, vivaldi isn't part of mer | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | but i do know there's people doing commercial products on mer | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | and even hiring for them | 23:02 |
| Estel_ | I see. I wonder what it will turn into. | 23:02 |
| Stskeeps | so, yeah, it did lead somewhere finally | 23:02 |
| Stskeeps | hopefully we'll see a nice mer-based mobile device of some kind in the future | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | i know for sure i'd like to buy one of those mer-based TVs/STBs that are under development.. | 23:03 |
| Estel_ | so, as a coding noon - unfortunatelyt - who is going to have harmattan device soon, if I want to try with Mer/Nemo and contirbute by etsting, reporting bugs, suggesting etc... | 23:03 |
| Estel_ | i'm better with installing it on N900 than N950? | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, shouldn't be a problem | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | you can even run it in a virtual machine | 23:03 |
| Stskeeps | i'm planning on porting wayland to omap3 again | 23:04 |
| Estel_ | yes, i'm aware of it | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | using my n900 at home | 23:04 |
| Estel_ | hm, sounds nice | 23:04 |
| Stskeeps | so yeah.. | 23:05 |
| Estel_ | BTW, Mer TV/STB sound nice, if they don't manage to close it as much as possible for end user ;) | 23:05 |
| Stskeeps | dunno, we don't impose things on vendors | 23:05 |
| Estel_ | I know, It's good thing from one side of coin ;0 | 23:05 |
| Estel_ | Well, I still belive in dream of community designing own device (basing what is applicable from already open hardware, like parts of RPi or Open Pandora or Openmoko), that coulc be powered by Mer ;) | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | either way.. the thing i've learnt from all this: aftermarket hardware adaptation is hard | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | if you have to have open hardware, it has to be open from the start | 23:06 |
| Estel_ | exactly | 23:06 |
| Stskeeps | we had the people who -made- the n900 hardware work for fremantle | 23:07 |
| Stskeeps | and yet we had difficulty on a higher kernel | 23:07 |
| Stskeeps | but in honestly: we really did this n900 work for the good of the community, to make sure that they'd be the first device that wouldn't be left behind | 23:08 |
| Stskeeps | and n900 is possibly the most hackable device ever, due to this | 23:08 |
| Stskeeps | having modern OS images still being built for it, is a miracle for nokia devices :P | 23:09 |
| Stskeeps | and people, if they don't like nemo, can do their own stack | 23:09 |
| Stskeeps | like focus on qml components, new homescreen, etc | 23:10 |
| Stskeeps | they can't possibly do a worse job handling it than nokia did :) | 23:10 |
| Estel_ | haha | 23:11 |
| Estel_ | yea, seems so | 23:11 |
| Estel_ | And N9/50? from what You've said, it's hardware adaptation isn't going to be as good anytime soon/ever? | 23:12 |
| Stskeeps | correct | 23:12 |
| Stskeeps | which sucks | 23:12 |
| Stskeeps | it's quite good but stuck on .32 kernel | 23:12 |
| Estel_ | a little, considering resources (memory) on those devices. But, well, anyway, we know who to blame for that ;) | 23:12 |
| Stskeeps | it wasn't with my good will, but intel hired so many of the nokia kernel team after feb11.. | 23:13 |
| Stskeeps | so there wasn't much of a choice | 23:13 |
| Stskeeps | so it goes | 23:15 |
| Estel_ | of course | 23:17 |
| Estel_ | well, we really need to forget about Nokia (Mer guys seems to have this done much earlier) | 23:18 |
| Stskeeps | ish.. we were allowed to work on mer as part of the community edition work | 23:19 |
| Stskeeps | it meant we could work with it in work time and put a lot of time into it | 23:19 |
| Stskeeps | so i'm actually more thankful | 23:19 |
| Estel_ | Of course, I'm also aware of that | 23:20 |
| Estel_ | I'm rather talking about present day, unfortunately | 23:20 |
| Stskeeps | :nod: | 23:20 |
| Stskeeps | qt seems to continue for the while being | 23:20 |
| Stskeeps | and i'm confident we'll see qt5 | 23:21 |
| Estel_ | Do You expect Qt being able to live and evolve even if, at some point in future, it can face 0 big company (monetary) support? | 23:21 |
| Estel_ | I hope so | 23:21 |
| Estel_ | after all, I couldn't stand everything being java :P | 23:22 |
| Stskeeps | yes, i think so | 23:22 |
| Stskeeps | it has the right caliber open source project by now | 23:22 |
| Stskeeps | silly question, is one of your personal major languages german? | 23:22 |
| Stskeeps | just wondering why you're always capitalizing You | 23:23 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 23:23 |
| Stskeeps | it isn't like that in polish, at least | 23:23 |
| Estel_ | no, not silly :p | 23:24 |
| Estel_ | well, in fact, it's coming from respectful form in Polish writing | 23:24 |
| Estel_ | letters, etc | 23:24 |
| Estel_ | sometimes, documents | 23:24 |
| Stskeeps | ah, so Pan/Pani.. | 23:24 |
| Stskeeps | got it | 23:24 |
| Estel_ | You, He, She, etc is capitalised there | 23:24 |
| Estel_ | exactly | 23:25 |
| Estel_ | I know it's silly, i just can't get rid of that behavior ;) | 23:25 |
| Estel_ | call it personal folklore of mine 9I'm aware, that it's gramma error, in fact) | 23:25 |
| Estel_ | s/gramma/grammar | 23:25 |
| Estel_ | grandma, lol | 23:25 |
| Estel_ | need to excuse you - i'm going to transfer my N90 0entity into another mothertboard (former one was badly damaged during CNc experiments - had to cut-off part of motherboard with charging chip and usb port) | 23:30 |
| Stskeeps | ok | 23:31 |
| Stskeeps | i'm here for QtCS so bored in hotel room, hence why im here :P | 23:31 |
| Estel_ | well, the fact that only thing that can replace my N900 is another N900's motherboard out into my modified N900 body tells something about state of currently offered mobile devices :P{ | 23:31 |
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