IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Tuesday, 2012-04-17

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DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: mind me adding infobot for log purposes?14:47
DocScrutinizeralso please change /topic14:47
DocScrutinizermaybe ask x-fade to /cs flags $chan GeneralAntilles +sRfF14:49
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ivgalvez-N900Hi, just testing my IRC plugin for Conversations15:01
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DocScrutinizeryou're welcome to stay nevertheless15:03
ivgalvezthat's the idea, I might need to be on the move during the meeting15:03
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DocScrutinizer\o/ povbot15:44
DocScrutinizerpabs3: thanks for spreading the word :-)15:45
pabs3np :)15:46
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DocScrutinizerlogs at
* pabs3 wonders if any other channels should be notified15:49
DocScrutinizerdunno of any beyond #harmattan and some #maemo-* lesser maemo chans15:50
DocScrutinizer#meego #mer #nemo ? don't think it's all on topic there15:50
DocScrutinizerup to the 'council' in the end ;-)15:51
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: ^^ ?15:52
Stskeepsi had trouble seeing how it was relevant in tizen, maybe more in #mer and #nemomobile ;)15:52
DocScrutinizeryou're going to take appropriate measures to let your users know?15:52
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TermanaGee you're acting like this meeting is not going to be a few hairy guys, Maemo sheriffs and a toothless bandit15:54
TermanaI'll let you decide who is who15:54
javispedrothat might actually be an improvement =)15:54
Stskeepsi (sadly) have to be at driver's lessons for the first time today, so i won't be able to participate15:55
Stskeepsmost people know my opinions though15:55
Stskeepsand you're free to ignore them ;)15:55
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javispedroyou should list them somewhere =)15:58
javispedro(either way I have to leave for another meeting in a few minutes, but will be back in two hours, cya!)15:59
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: cya :-D16:00
Stskeepsjavispedro: Search: Posts Made By: Stskeeps on ;)16:01
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DocScrutinizercould somebody ask x-fade, jaffa, GeneralAntilles to update /topic?16:08
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, 0750? Really? :P16:37
GeneralAntillesI was asleep.16:37
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Council meeting. 2012-04-17 15:00 UTC | topics: see"16:40
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: hi and morn'! :-D16:41
* GeneralAntilles snores.16:41
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Woody14619Hi. :)18:00
Woody14619Sorry for the lateness... conflicting real-world meeting.18:00
DocScrutinizercould we start with "introduction", who's here and what's his "role"?18:01
lardmannot started yet18:01
SD69let's start18:01
lardmando we expect more people, not many here yet?18:02
lardmane.g. QGil?18:02
SD69I don't think we need introductions, except anybody new here please speak up18:02
DocScrutinizerwould be nice to have quim here, yes18:03
DocScrutinizerI think I dunno who's council18:03
SD69the only council member here is me  ;-)18:03
Woody14619a few here are candidates for the next council (myself included).18:04
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SD69is javispedro on?18:04
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SD69let's start with topic 2 and return to 1 if and when QGil arrives18:05
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SD69topic 2 is Community OBS18:05
SD69this is a collaborative project with mer/nemo18:06
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vgradevgrade \o18:06
* freemangordon says hi18:07
SD69the meego build service will be terminated AIUI18:07
SD69it has been proposed that the maemo extras autobuilder could be replaced with community OBS18:08
SD69the response on ML has been generally favorable18:08
SD69and a few have volunteered to help18:09
javispedroSD69: how do you want the meeting to proceed, shall we comment and raise questions at any moment?18:10
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SD69X-Fade:  would you like to describe the technical aspects of the proposal?18:10
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X-FadeSD69: Sure.18:10
DocScrutinizerwhat's the benefit of fuzzing around with maemo extras autobuilder?18:10
RST38hOMG live Quim18:10
qgilHi, sorry for being late. Mum in Europe, me driving kids to school etc18:10
SD69javispedro: I'll introduce a topic and then open for discussion18:11
javispedroSD69: ok, thanks18:11
X-FadeSD69: We'd need to setup a project in OBS where we import fremantle SDK.18:11
X-FadeSD69: I did a test once for PR1.2 and got it kind of working.18:11
X-FadeWe need to see what issues arise when we build packages from Extras against this project.18:11
X-FadeAnother thing we need to do is to setup cross building.18:12
X-FadeThe Mer project is making great progress with using SB2 for accelerating, we could do the same.18:12
X-FadeUsing SB2 in OBS that is.18:12
X-FadeThis effort requires quite some figuring out and test building. We'd need some volunteers to help out.18:13
DocScrutinizerI still fail to see the motivation18:14
X-FadeBut once it works, it will open up a lot of opportunities.18:14
X-FadeIt would be a lot easier for the community to manage the repositories and keep them in a consistent state.18:14
lardmanDocScrutinizer: afaiu to have an open build system just in case Nokia/ goes away18:14
DocScrutinizergood point18:15
X-FadeI proposed to have a separate meeting to talk about the technical implementation though.18:15
javispedroand maybe it will be necessary18:15
SD69I think it would be good to have a "task force" once a decision is made18:15
X-FadeYeah, makes sense.18:16
SD69today is not for making a decision, but for raising issues18:16
itsnotabigtruckhow likely is it that C-OBS could be itself terminated in the mid to long term18:16
itsnotabigtrucki understand that it involves a significant number of buildboxes and therefore is probably not inexpensive to keep running18:16
X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: we have gotten an unofficial, 2 years after last release of MeeGo.18:16
X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: But we also have servers at
javispedroin any case, I think if we still have the old buildsystem, no one will dare to move it or upgrade it18:17
javispedroso it will die when dies18:18
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vgradewe are planning for this,
DocScrutinizerand I'm reluctant to "touch a running system"18:18
X-FadeSure, but will not die any time soon anyway.18:18
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lardmanX-Fade: how long is paid up for?18:18
javispedrowith "someone's else" build server that we do not have to fully maintain, getting it to work in a apocalyptic scenario could be as easy as buying some amazon computing time18:19
X-Fadelardman: See Quim's statement.18:19
javispedro(by donations, etc.)18:19
SD69 this proposal is actually being driven by Mer proposal for community OBS18:19
X-Fadejavispedro: If we have it all in OBS, migrating it to any server is easy.18:19
javispedroyep, that is what I wanted to say :)18:20
Jaffa_Right, but the interests of the Mer project aren't necessarily aligned with those of; even if the same people may be doing the work.18:20
SD69Jaffa: true in many respects18:20
X-Fadejavispedro: Well, not really.18:20
Jaffa_SD69: For example, Mer is more concerned about use of Nokia proprietary binaries; when Extras Autobuilder already has such permissions18:20
X-Fadeehm Jaffa :)18:20
SD69but there is overlap too18:21
Woody14619JAffa_: I think having a uniform build system would be advantagious though, since it would promote cross-porting.18:21
X-FadeJaffa_: Yeah, but we can work around things like that.18:21
itsnotabigtruckwell, it would be desirable to have one platform, all targets18:21
Jaffa_SD69: Whereas that's not an issue which should affect OBS usage in any way, as it should be identical to the arrangements for the Autobuilder.18:21
X-FadeWoody14619: For sure.18:21
Jaffa_X-Fade: That's my point, it's not an "issue" for maemo.org18:21
DocScrutinizerWoody14619: good point18:21
X-FadeJaffa_: Yeah, so you set up a so called OBS link and you are done.18:21
qgillardman: budget assured until end of 2012. Budget reviews are done every 6 months. The funding of has been like this since 1995. Business as usual.18:22
X-FadeYou can host your binaries elsewhere if needed.18:22
Woody14619Jaffa_: There is also concern in the Maemo community for use of those SDKs in COBS if/after goes away.  (Date not yet set.)18:22
lardmanqgil: thanks18:22
itsnotabigtruckright, it would be extremely nice if it would be possible to e.g. flip a switch on my mosh port, and make a new build for fremantle18:22
Woody14619Jaffa_:So, it is a bit of a concern for Maemo... just not as urgent.18:22
Jaffa_Woody14619: Indeed, but a) I think OBS vs. autobuilder isn't that much of an impediment to porting as much as Qt Components; b) it's OBS itself which is the learning curve, not any instance of it nor who's managing it18:22
Jaffa_X-Fade: "You" == you, as you're paid to work on still (AFAIK ;-))18:23
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Jaffa_X-Fade: Plus lots of ppl coming out of the woodwork to volunteer18:23
X-FadeJaffa_: Yeah, well I'm all for it ;)18:24
Jaffa_Woody14619: Yes, but that's not an issue of moving to OBS and - as X-Fade says - having OBS makes it easier to get up and running on different servers. The continued usage of Nokia binaries is a later point in the agenda IIRC18:24
X-FadeI just need other people to help as it is complicated to get working and is a lot of work to sort out.18:24
javispedroX-Fade: a question: how costly would be to make point to COBS?18:24
Jaffa_X-Fade: Me too, but I don't think it needs to be driven from a Mer point of view. If there's shared work, great. But we shouldn't let any hold ups of Mer (e.g. Nokia binaries) hold up a implementation18:24
X-Fadejavispedro: We already are able to import harmattan packages so that is not a big deal.18:25
X-Fadejavispedro: Ah, wait. The other way around as I was thinking.18:25
Jaffa_X-Fade: javispedro: I'm sure AFM would like a /packages/ view too, so some reuse the other way there?18:25
Woody14619Jaffa_: I think in the long term we've got more in common with Mer in reguards to binaries...  They're just on an accelerated track.  But as you said, that's future agenda.18:25
DocScrutinizerhow's any transition from current maemo extras autobuilder to some COBS based thing going to happen seamlessly, without major downtimes or even permanent new bugs introduced?18:26
Stskeepsif it's done with the obs link, i perosnally don't have any problems18:26
itsnotabigtruckone problem is that right now there's a lot of operational issues related to AfM and buildependencies, libraries, and so on18:26
X-FadeJaffa_: It is actually semi there already, but it is not visible :)18:26
itsnotabigtrucki hope those issues don't become permanent, and moreover get inherited by this new maemo arrangement18:26
javispedroitsnotabigtruck: that's more of an issue with the client app, not obs itself I think18:26
lardmanWoody14619: I thought we were discussing using the Mer build infra, not trying to rebase maemo packages on Mer?18:26
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X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: By using an OBS we can better delegate that.18:27
X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: Dependencies are no issue in OBS. It just needs people to come up with a policy and wanting to be a dependable maintainer.18:27
itsnotabigtruckjavispedro: partly...the root of the problem is that you can't make arbitrary build dependencies available to your app when submitting into any sort of central repo18:28
itsnotabigtruckand that's sort of an OBS problem18:28
X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: It is not. It is just that we don't allow it now.18:28
X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: Pure policy, not technical.18:28
Jaffa_X-Fade: Right, but it *is* allowed in Extras. So, as you say, someone's got to do the work to come up with a usable policy for it in COBS18:28
javispedroNote that I am not aware of problems with build-deps, I am aware with the AFM problem with deps (a restriction I would like to set lifted btw :) )18:29
Jaffa_X-Fade: Unless it can be enabled/used in one portion of COBS ( Extras) and not another (AFM)18:29
Woody14619lardman: afaiu it's about adding targets to share COBS for Harmattan and possibly Fremantle (and Diablo, etc).  Not rebasing per-se, but having the same build structure with different targets would promote cross-dev, forward and backward.18:29
X-FadeJaffa_: Yeps.18:29
X-FadeJaffa_: You can do it per project.18:29
X-Fadejavispedro: THere is no problem with deps in afm, we just don't allow them to be external :)18:30
Jaffa_Woody14619: Have you tried cross-dev? I think you're overstating the aspect the build system has when Fremantle -> Harmattan involves Gtk+ -> Qt and Harmattan <-> Mer has potential QML issues (less so than Fremantle <-> Harmattan, tho')18:30
X-Fadejavispedro: But that is done to keep thing simple.18:30
javispedroyes, I can think why18:30
javispedrowhich is I understand it is not entirely simple to lift18:30
javispedrothis reminds me. my question regarding the interface was: there's a lot of code there (promotion, testers, supertesters)18:31
X-Fadejavispedro: It just needs a group of people willing to work on it.18:31
javispedrocode and policy18:31
lardmanX-Fade: and that is a potential problem, seeing that there aren't all that many people here18:31
X-Fadejavispedro: I'd rather move away from the old /packages code.18:31
javispedrowhat is going to happen with that. is it reasonable that it will be put on top of cobs repos? will we move to AFM infrastructure?18:31
Woody14619Jaffa_: Yes, there are issues as stated.  But some things would be easier (libs, CLI, script-based, etc).18:32
itsnotabigtruckmaybe appsformeego and the extras frontend could be agglomerated into one18:32
X-Fadelardman: Then we need to ask our selves if it is really worth it.18:32
SD69X-Fade: willing and able is the problem18:32
lardmanX-Fade: +118:32
X-FadeSD69: Community is what you make of it.18:32
X-FadeSD69: If nobody cares or is able, then we can go home.18:32
X-FadeThere is nobody to hold our hands, we got to do this ourselves. Or it doesn't get done.18:33
SD69let's talk about whether we have the resources to do community OBS and how long it would take18:33
DocScrutinizerI still wonder who's providing a working oldstyle extras autobuilder during times of migrations, and how18:34
SD69so far, javispedro, timoph and pycage have offered to help18:34
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* lbt notes that some people (like me) make time to look after certain bits of infra - consolidating infra management across groups usually means small incremental increase in load for large benefit for groups.18:34
SD69but I suspect more is needed??18:34
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: It is where it is and will stay active.18:34
Woody14619Doc: The existing ones are not going away.  Doing it now gives us the time to migrate, vs doing after a close.18:34
itsnotabigtruckso we're talking about a) fremantle OBS target, b) migration of extras package into OBS, c) migration of extras frontend over OBS (possibly replacing it with something appsformeego based)18:34
DocScrutinizerso 'new' one is a parallel "infra"?18:34
javispedrofremantle, diablo, and chinook.18:35
itsnotabigtruckC definitely sounds like the hard part18:35
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Yes, with the idea to some day replace it.18:35
javispedroitsnotabigtruck: I concur...18:35
lardmando we have download stats for e.g. the chinook repo? How many people are still using these devices?18:35
Woody14619Do we need to do C?  Can't we have OBS just push to the existing repos for now?  Then tackle the next part when needed?18:35
lbt(is there a live meeting log?)18:35
X-Fadelardman: It is very very low. I'm not sure if it still logs..18:36
javispedrolardman: only two builds per year. So yes, definitely not mandatory, but I think it's not going to be the costliest think.18:36
itsnotabigtruckWoody14619: well, all the promotion infrastructure needs to know about OBS, right?18:36
javispedro*most costly thing18:36
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SD69merlin1991: thks18:36
X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: We now use BOSS for promotion/testing etc, together with a web interface. It is al lot cleaner.18:37
Jaffa_The benefit has to be getting off the autobuilder entirely. That can be incremental (do Fremantle or Diablo first, then Diablo or Fremantle, then Chinook)18:38
lardmanjavispedro: I'm just thinking about the effort required to more the builders across to build compatible code now (and there are still working builders, repos, etc.), as opposed to the Mer-base porting efforts going on to target legacy devices (which will give them more longevity)18:38
*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Council meeting. 2012-04-17 15:00 UTC | topics: see | livelog at"18:38
Jaffa_lardman: Rebasing Maemo packages has to be something separate. That may be easier with COBS but out of scope for now18:38
javispedrolardman: well, I am unsure about the effort as of yet.18:38
Jaffa_So, proposed rough plan? (Although the folks who've volunteered will need to come up with an actual plan)18:38
lardmanJaffa_: sure, but it needs to be evaluated along side18:38
Woody14619afaik one can push packages in deb form (not the preferd way, but possible). Couldn't COBS use that route at start?18:38
lardmanjavispedro: I'm also not sure on progress, and potential success either18:39
javispedrolardman: but I believe that, if fremantle is moved, moving diablo and chinook will naturaly come.18:39
X-FadeWoody14619: Yes, you can import binary repositories. But they have a lot of other issues in OBS.18:39
Jaffa_1) Move autobuilder to use OBS; rsync OBS repos into existing ones to avoid changes to, /downloads or QA processes at
itsnotabigtruckuploading local builds of packages would be against the whole idea of having reproduceable open-source builds, but it would lower the barrier to entry a lot18:39
Jaffa_2) Consolidate code (if not infrastructure as well) between QA process and AFM QA process.18:40
Jaffa_3) Consolidate code (if not infrastructure as well) between and AFM18:40
Jaffa_4) Erm, profit?18:40
X-FadeI'd really like to see if we can get to some kind of production quality Extras on OBS.18:40
javispedroI am really worried about the viability of the webby side of things.18:40
X-FadeIf we can do that, then we can decide what to do next. But this is already a big step :)18:40
javispedroMore scared about the web side than of problems with scratchboxisms even =)18:41
X-Fadejavispedro: If you make the OBS side work, then I'll look into the webbie parts :)18:41
Jaffa_javispedro: There's push to revamp's QA processes as well; and AFM has taken an approach (discussed at meegoconf) where we took what we learned from maemo.org18:41
javispedrowill there more hackers capable of working with BOSS than with sbdmock and midgard?18:41
Jaffa_javispedro: That's why in my plan we tackle the building aspect (#1) separate to the web UI (#2)18:41
javispedro(note that I not in either group)18:41
javispedro*I am not18:42
X-Fadejavispedro: General knowledge about building etc will get you a long way.18:42
Stskeepsboss is easy, python and process description18:43
Woody14619Jaffa_: Agreed, that's why I'm saying C isn't a huge issue, since by time A gets done, people may be more than happy to change how C is done anyway.18:43
Stskeepsi learnt it in 5 hours18:43
qgilThen I guess it's 5 hours for me18:43
qgilI mean 5 days18:43
Jaffa_Woody14619: Agreed entirely. Problem needs to be broken down into manageable chunks. Iterative and agile is the way18:43
itsnotabigtrucki definitely like the idea of combining the good parts of fremantle and harmattan infrastructure into a combined app distribution system18:43
javispedroso, you saying will be relatively easy to implement all the wacky promotion policies? :)18:43
Jaffa_javispedro: Or we take it as an opportunity to review them ;-)18:44
X-Fadejavispedro: Yes, that part is easy.18:44
X-Fadejavispedro: That is done already for AFM.18:44
Woody14619Ok, I love you all, but... I know we had more agenda items... and we're going in circles, 45 mis in...  Next item maybe? :)18:44
* merlin1991 wants to offer his help and time aswell18:44
Jaffa_IOW, after #1 in my proposed plan, we only have COBS feeding Extras-devel (from people's home repos?) or Extras-testing. Promotion code to Extras itself remains unchanged.18:44
SD69yes, let's wrap up and move to another topic18:44
X-FadeAs said, let's plan a Fremantle on OBS meeting..18:44
javispedroJaffa_: ok :)18:45
ivgalvezWould that affect repository addresses?18:45
itsnotabigtrucki guess we were going to go and do [1] when qgil arrived18:45
X-Fadeivgalvez: Only at a later stage.18:45
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X-Fadeivgalvez: And even then we might decide that it doesn't ;)18:45
SD69X-Fade: what help do you need with the fremantle on OBS meeting?18:46
Jaffa_Ideally, of course, it never would. But certainly not after just changing the builder (i.e. #1 of my suggested ordering)18:46
* Jaffa_ steps away breifly18:46
X-FadeSD69: Should we set a date/time now?18:46
SD69I'd rather do it another time, but don't want it to be dropped...18:47
Woody14619I think it would be best to do so, so we can announce it to the list/forum for those who want to help.18:47
X-FadeSD69: I'll follow up on the list.18:47
ivgalvezMy concern is that most users not active on TMO won't know about changing their repo for Extras18:47
javispedroand let's revive the wiki for this, or at least do a task page as in the old days18:47
X-Fadeivgalvez: Don't worry about that, that won't be needed at all.18:47
itsnotabigtruckcan't an HTTP redirect be set on the old repo url?18:47
itsnotabigtruckthat said, that's the final stage18:47
javispedrothere's tasks to do, and there's people, so maybe something can get done :)18:47
itsnotabigtruckand the latest of the problems18:48
Woody14619ivgalvez: We could easily push a repo change via extras... update a key package with no delta but a repo add.18:48
SD69let's move back to topic 118:48
SD69we have Qgil back again18:48
SD69many things are the same as a year ago, but new things too18:49
SD69qgil: can you explain what events led you back to us (except you missed maemo ;-) )18:50
qgilSD69: the MeeGo team (I was part of until November) is being ramped down by phases18:51
qgilThe people that was responsible of the infrastructure have given the responsibilities (Matii included) to a team under Nokia Developer18:52
qgilPekka Kosonen is nopw the responsible of the budget and the connection with N9/Harmattan activities18:53
qgilmaintenance etc18:53
qgilI volunteered to be the frontend with the community and save Pekka a headache or two  :)18:53
qgilPekka and me are in different teams (I'm in the Qt team) but both under Nokia Developer, no big deal18:53
qgilthat's it18:54
qgilPS: for me it's early morning and I have time to extend the meeting if needed18:55
SD69thanks, these are anxious times for maemo (because of Nokia/WP7 alliance)18:55
SD69let's move on to topic 318:55
qgilwell, that alliance it's been there for more than a year. Maybe it's time to leave anxiety behind?18:55
lardmanqgil: then we move onto share prices ;)18:55
ivgalvezLet's focus on actual issues18:56
SD69qgil: if you say so..., nice that we are together again18:56
qgilIf full time employees got over this maybe community contributors could as well - or do something else. Your choice, but I recommend you to get stressed about the right things  :)18:56
SD69council elections require work too18:56
qgillardman: not even share prices make me anxious tbh18:56
SD69Dave Neary is not available to help18:56
lardmanqgil: tongue-in-cheek, don't worry18:56
qgilbut then again, why cares about the stock exchange?18:56
SD69X-Fade: will you be helping with the vote or someone else at Nemein?18:57
X-FadeSD69: No problem, will sort it out.18:57
qgilI guess it would sound bad that King George would say that maybe a council overhead is not needed to get things done  ;)18:57
SD69The dates comes up in early May.18:57
X-FadeSD69: if/when there are enough candidates.18:58
lardmanqgil: from my point of view, while I've read the rumours about Meltemi, there is a concern that if costs have to be cut, then something that is not generating production devices will be the thing that is cut - not that I am partiocularly concerned, as I realise I don't know what's going on in Nokia18:58
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X-Fadelardman: I think you need to look at orders of magnitude in budgets :)18:59
lardmanX-Fade: again this is data I'm not privy to, any again not worried as people who are working at the coal face seem unconcerned18:59
qgillardman: if you want to guess a corporation you need to think like one. How much is the cost of and how much would be the "cost" of dealing with a swith off of the servers. Even if Nokia would want to get rid og (which I'll insist again it's not the case) this evaluation would be made18:59
DocScrutinizergiven the fact even warranty hw support for N900 got cut down to zero before even the legal warranty period expired on most devices sold in EU...18:59
itsnotabigtruckwell, it's definitely the case that maemo app distribution etc. should ideally become more independent so that we aren't relying on the beneficence of a company that already dropped this platform18:59
SD69X-Fade: I will confirm the date.  courtesy of qqwazix, we will put up a banner to advertize18:59
DocScrutinizerI tend to agree with lardman 's concerns19:00
itsnotabigtruckbecause that doesn't seem like a winning long-term strategy19:00
merlin1991how many candidates are there currently?19:00
javispedromeh, there _have_ to be enough candidates, so this is an encouragement for people to nominate =)19:00
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: For everything Harmattan, same infra is being used.19:00
ivgalvezI nominate SD6919:01
javispedroI feel like if both the oldest timers and the newest newcomers groups are little represented :)19:01
SD69there are currently four candidates - a vote is required19:01
qgilas said, you can keep worrying. I'll let you know if there is something actually tangible for you to worry about19:01
lardmanlol, thanks19:01
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: yes, that's why I'm all for integration of harmattan with fremantle&pre infra19:01
Woody14619As I understand, there are already 4 accepted candidates, and at least 3 nominated that have yet to accept (looking at you SD69... ;)19:01
X-FadeIf there _is_ something to worry about, things will certainly not be switched off without warning.19:01
SD69next topic - license of maemo binaries19:02
ivgalvezI would say that someone more Harmattanish is also needed in the council19:02
SD69let's make it easy and say for purposes of community OBS19:02
ivgalvezEstel and me are Maemoish19:02
X-FadeI don't understand that people see it as something different :)19:02
qgilivgalvez: you won't find them here - why not opening a thread in the Harmattan forum?19:03
itsnotabigtruckright, for all intents and purposes harmattan is maemo, and the infighting about that needs to stop19:03
lardmanitsnotabigtruck: long term strategy is to port a newer base (and indeed whole newer platform) to the hw so that people keep developing for the devices; in addition to developers moving to a newer platform/device, the number of working devices will also drop19:03
itsnotabigtruckright now harmattan is relegated to 2 forums on t.m.o, and there's no harmattan content on the rest of the site19:04
itsnotabigtruckthis enhanced combined obs extras project might resolve the latter part19:04
SD69qgil: can you comment on licensing of maemo binaries for community OBS purposes?19:04
qgilI believe I need help (from X-Fade ) to understand really what does this mean19:05
qgilThe binaries released have the linceses they have. There is a Harmattan target in AFM. Wjat else do you need?19:05
Woody14619itsnotabigtruck: I think the issue is that it would be nice to have someone from that camp involved, since like it or not there is a divide.  I'd also love to see someone from the Diablo community on Council.  Even a cross-memeber (N900/N9 combo owner) would be nice.19:05
javispedroqgil: fremantle/diablo targets (including nokia binaries)19:06
X-Fadeqgil: I guess the problem is that SDK, specifically nokia binaries are behind the EULA.19:06
X-Fadeqgil: And they can't be redistributed.19:06
SD69I believe the licenses don't fit for a community project shared with Mer19:06
itsnotabigtruckright, the licensing situation for that is rather problematic19:06
qgilso what is going beyond that EULA to have an OBS target?19:06
qgilI need to understand, in order to explain it to Nokia legal team19:06
X-Fadeqgil: Hosted binaries by somebody else than Nokia.19:07
qgilhow is AFM doing it now?19:07
X-Fadeqgil: We setup an OBS link.19:07
X-Fadeqgil: So we have the SDK on a Nokia server and link to that from the MeeGo one.19:08
javispedro(and allow me to say that it worked horribly slowly :P) has that been fixed?19:08
qgilwhat is the big problem of keeping this practice? Again Nokia disappearing from the map tomorrow?19:08
X-Fadeqgil: Then the SDK would go away.19:08
X-Fadeqgil: And building is not possible anymore.19:08
X-Fadeqgil: And the community can upload the SDK somewhere else to continue.19:08
qgilBut in a scenario where Nokia would not disappear tomorrow? Is that an issue?19:08
itsnotabigtruckit's a legitimate risk19:09
lardmanqgil: Nokia may decide they don't want to host the SDK19:09
X-FadeWell, you could host the SDK elsewhere but that is a legal problem.19:09
Woody14619qgil: There is an issue around speed, as javispedro noted as well.19:09
X-FadeWoody14619: That is a minor issue compared to the legal one.19:09
SD69also, collaboration with Mer/Nemo is desireable to be possible19:10
qgilAre these Nokia binaries really Nokia binaries only, or are there 3rd party binaries as well?19:10
* DocScrutinizer points at flasher19:10
X-Fadeqgil: Both19:10
Woody14619X-fade: Another concern could be net usage.  Depending on the final home, if there are restrictions on use, pulling those per build would start to add up.19:11
X-FadeWoody14619: They don't get pulled per build.19:11
DocScrutinizerqgil: afaik all (C)Nokia19:11
itsnotabigtruckthe main issue is that redistribution limitations don't protect nokia business interests and do limit developer flexibility19:11
itsnotabigtruckand developer flexibility provides value to nokia19:12
DocScrutinizerI'd not know of 3rd party19:12
DocScrutinizerfor any 3rd party binaries we're screwed as Nokia can't do anything19:12
qgilWhat I'm seeing (honestly) is that the business/legal task is bigger than you think, while that "legitimate risk" causing this work is (honestly) smaller than what you say19:12
Woody14619There was discussion on the list of simple "expaning" the EULA to allow 3rd party distribution of unmodified binaries for works targeting Nokia-based devices.19:13
qgilI've been at Nokia since 1995, there have been some changes, deprecations, etc. One common denominator has been warnings with time to react19:13
itsnotabigtruckso how are we supposed to react when nokia shuts down
itsnotabigtruckwithout the license change being done in advance19:14
X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: All the same infra.19:14
DocScrutinizerqgil: if it were you instead of Elop, nobody was concerned ;-)19:14
qgilitsnotabigtruck: no, you would react if/when Nokia announces that will be rampdown on yyyy-mm-dd19:14
itsnotabigtruckqgil: by mirroring it...except the license prohibits it19:14
qgilDocScrutinizer: Elop gave me more than a year to figure out what to do next...19:15
itsnotabigtruckand then it's not unlikely the nokia lawyers will start firing off the DMCA takedown notices etc.19:15
DocScrutinizerfair enough19:15
javispedromeh, if Nokia is gone, their lawyers are too ;P19:15
qgilI honestly believe here and now it is more useful to put our time and attention on other topics19:16
DocScrutinizerand - honestly - I haven't heard of them up til now19:16
SD69the community is investing in maemo and looking for the investment to last beyond 6 months19:16
qgilSD69: same here19:16
SD69but Nokia holds all the cards...19:16
qgilSD69: ???19:17
qgilThe Maemo community is deciding where the Maemo community wants to go (if anywhere), not Nokia19:17
qgilsaying that the Maemo community can't do really a thing because those bineries need to be redistributable or hosted somewhere esle looks to me an exxaggeration (again, honestly)19:18
DocScrutinizerlet's set up mirrors/whatever, and when Nokia (their lawyers) gets concerned, then they either opt to send takedown notices or rather work out some licence change19:18
merlin1991besides the end of nokia talk, whatabout the issue said javispedro brought up (speed of the linked setup)19:18
SD69saying we can do something for six months is not attractive19:18
X-FadeSD69: It is > 6 months19:19
X-FadeWhere > is infinity for now.19:19
qgilIs it useful to look back at history? When has Nokia pulled down or made a radical change without a prior notice of half year or more?19:19
javispedroI concur with merlin1991. X-Fade, you said it is minor, but it is workaroundable even if we have to keep using the OBS link?19:19
SD69X-Fade:  12 months, even19:19
X-FadeNo, it is infinity unless changed.19:19
* javispedro thinks of the elop wp announcement =)19:20
qgilthat's right, the default situation is "renew" - and argument needs to be done to justify "stop"19:20
qgilI haven't heard any "stop" argument19:20
SD69qgil: when has something like 2/11 happened before? that was unthinkable with Nokia 10 years ago - it's a new world19:20
lardmansurely that would eventually come for a legacy platform?19:20
DocScrutinizerqgil: when stopping to service/repair N900, Nokia definitely did19:20
itsnotabigtrucksemi-related topic: is there any confirmation that a harmattan pr1.3 sdk will be released - there's been rumors of that, but that's all19:20
DocScrutinizereven while EU warranty still required them to service devices19:21
qgiljavispedro: elop wp announcement also gave 6 months or more for everybody19:21
itsnotabigtruckthat becomes a significant problem with OBS because there's a large number of APIs added post-pr1.0 and right now the public sdk is held back to pr1.0 api level19:21
itsnotabigtruckwhereas even ovi store has moved up to pr1.1 api level19:21
qgilSD69: ask Nokia oldtimers and they have seen changes more radical than that19:21
itsnotabigtruckit's not that hard to work around that with local builds but it's very difficult to work around with an arrangement such as C-OBS19:22
X-Fadeitsnotabigtruck: OBS has been updated to current SDK.19:22
SD69qgil: don't know on the cellphone side...19:22
itsnotabigtruckX-Fade: current sdk is pr1.0 sdk19:22
itsnotabigtruckunless something was just released within the past few days19:22
X-FadeShall we continue with the meeting, I have to go in 10 minutes.19:23
SD69the community is saying that without a future, it will stop19:23
Woody14619qgil: I wouldn't have expected Kodak divisions I worked in 5 years ago to be gone in a blink of an eye, yet they're in Chapter 11 now, and may not pull out.  Even big companies can go away unexpectedly.19:23
qgilit's 4/12 and here we are, funding the infra and maintenance. Just renewing a contract with Nemein as we speak19:23
itsnotabigtruckwell, we covered [1], [2]19:23
itsnotabigtruckbriefly covered [3]19:23
SD69let's do the last topic19:23
itsnotabigtrucki think the harmattan sdk swlc business was [A]?19:23
SD69co-maintainership of CSSU19:24
* X-Fade has a wild idea about that.19:24
SD69is this moot?19:24
qgilWoody14619: even when "companies go away unexpectedly" they actually ramp down things properly in most cases.19:24
X-FadeThat would be the perfect test case for fremantle on OBS :)19:24
javispedroI knew you were going to suggest that :)19:24
ivgalvezI would like also to add to the discussion the possibility to push CSSU as an upgrade for all users (optional)19:24
merlin1991SD69: it's still an issue though we've worked around it in the most ugliest way possible19:25
ivgalvezbut now only TMO followers now about CSSU19:25
qgilwait SD69 what is the conclusion from the last point?19:25
X-Fadeivgalvez: Realistically, those are the only people interested in it also.19:25
qgilIt would be nice to have something settlet, or something allowing all of us of moving forward with this discussion19:25
DocScrutinizerivgalvez: sounds insane19:25
qgilI don't feel like having to explain the same every time someone feel anxious about the future of Nokia19:26
merlin1991X-Fade: how much work is it to set up ie a garage group that can be maintained to goervn the upload rights to cssu (like the supertesters)?19:26
SD69qgil:  I thought you said no...19:26
DocScrutinizerivgalvez: we might think about publishing an "official notice", maybe in form of an app19:26
itsnotabigtruckmight it be possible to run the CSSU out of the enhanced combined c-obs?19:26
Woody14619qgil: I think the ask is that Nokia consider expanding the EULA to allow limited 3rd party use/storage of Nokia binaries for build use.19:26
X-Fademerlin1991: Think shell scripts..19:26
X-Fademerlin1991: And unix permissions, that is how basic it is :)19:26
merlin1991acl, and be happy?19:27
SD69qgil:  not future of Nokia, future of maemo - inextricably linked?19:27
qgilBut is it understood and shared my reasoning for not touching the current situation for now?19:27
X-Fademerlin1991: So, we can put some people in a unix group on the box itself. But it is one ugly mess.19:27
itsnotabigtrucki was talking on #harmattan about repo signing earlier19:28
merlin1991well the fact is that the current situation is even messier19:28
itsnotabigtruckapplications for obs such as CSSU would be a good reason to have repo signing enabled19:28
Woody14619qgil:  I think we understand your reasoning.  We simply disagree with the conclusions. :)19:28
X-Fademerlin1991: Let's schedule a separate meeting for that.19:28
merlin1991X-Fade: when?19:28
X-Fademerlin1991: Suggest something.19:29
qgilWoody14619: fair enough. At least every day passing with the xcurrent status quo is one point for "my" argument  :)19:29
ivgalvezDocScrutinizer: A package named something like "Maemo 5 Community Update"  pushed to Extras that could install CSSU Stable would be a deal19:29
merlin1991friday 13 UTC?19:29
javispedrowe were trying to setup another meeting for the fremantle obs tomorrow at the same hour as today's one19:29
X-Fademerlin1991: Can you do one hour earlier?19:30
Woody14619ivgalvez: Such a package could easily be made and pushed through the existing extras framework, could it not?19:30
SD69qgil:  I personally am concerned we couldn't construct a parachute in 3-6 months19:30
qgilPS: I'll send an email to the legal team so they know about this concern. Perhaps they will answer but no promise.19:30
ivgalvezWoody14619: Yes it's perfectly doable right now19:30
SD69qgil: I can be a bit more discrete with the license proposal if you wish19:31
merlin1991X-Fade: only 30 minutes earlier19:31
javispedroSD69: I think that if the only concern is getting the license clause added, then it might actually be easier during the 6-3 months :)19:31
Woody14619qgil: even planting the bug in their mind may help move things along, and is appreciated. :)19:31
DocScrutinizerWoody14619: of course19:31
itsnotabigtruckjavispedro: except, let's consider the scenario where nokia itself is on the brink of destruction and wrapping itself to get bought out19:31
itsnotabigtruckit's unlikely that the legal dept would be interested in liberalizing licensing on anything at that point19:32
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X-Fademerlin1991: ok, let's do that then.19:32
SD69itsnotabigtruck: good point, the chances increase if we do this patiently with no deadline19:33
DocScrutinizerI renew my proposal to ignore all legalese and see what Nokia is doing wrt that19:33
qgilitsnotabigtruck: did you se anything like that happening to, say, Novell? Or any of the tech purchases? Are we following the same tech news?19:33
merlin1991X-Fade: so friday (20.04) 12:30 UTC ?19:33
X-Fademerlin1991: yes19:33
* lardman heads off, nice to see you all19:34
SD69I think we should wrap it up19:34
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Woody14619qgil: Working for a company that bought things from Kodak divisions that have been sold off to other groups now, I can tell you freeing up the IP rights on things they just bough for older customers is not something they like to do...19:34
qgilAnyway, allow me not to join this kind of dicussions on doom scenarios - I risk being misinterpreted, misquoted etc19:34
Woody14619sd69: do we have a followup for obs build talks?  X-fade was going to post to the list to setup times?19:35
merlin1991X-Fade: I guess we'll do it in here?19:35
itsnotabigtruckso i guess the main thing needing settling is combined obs19:35
X-Fademerlin1991: yeah.19:35
SD69qgil: of course, nothing said so far is premised on doom scenario19:35
qgilWhat IP rights would you be freeing by adding that clause on hosting ad redistributong binaries?19:35
Woody14619qgil: The same ones Nokia is protecting by not allowing it now.19:36
itsnotabigtruckthe right to prevent people from hosting and redistributing binaries :p19:36
DocScrutinizerall the noise about freeing binaries is based on the assumption anything bad would happen if we start to distribute them without Nokia's explicit permission19:37
Woody14619qgil: Clearly, if there were not IP items to protect, the terms of the existung EULA would allow third party distro.19:37
qgilok, this is a longer discussion, I'm not a lawyer, etc19:37
DocScrutinizerI don't anticipate any bad things to happen19:37
Woody14619qgil: (At least that's how a third party buying a division will see it, since they lack history.)19:37
itsnotabigtruckcombined OBS is a more imminent issue anyway19:38
X-FadeI got to go guys. Talk to you later!19:38
javispedrocya X-Fade and ta!19:38
SD69People are free to talk, but I am going to end the official meeting19:38
itsnotabigtrucklater all19:38
Woody14619again, I'm not saying it's going to... Just it would be more assuring to know we have at least limited rights to hold/host/use binaries from Nokia to make tools for existing devices.19:38
qgilthanks X-Fade SD69  & co19:38
Woody14619Thanks to all.19:39
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SD69thanks everyone19:40
qgilWoody14619: if you get into details to "we have at least limited rights" you will see that it's actually difficult to give away IP19:40
itsnotabigtruckhm? at the end of the day it comes down to adding one clause to the EULA. of course, if the sdk contains encumbered 3rd party software there's complications, and there might be some company-wide ip policy in play, and all sorts of other problems19:42
itsnotabigtruckbut actually relaxing the eula is quite simple19:42
qgilI believe the central poijt is more about liabilities: while binaries are hosted in Nokia knows exactly what are they and who touched them. Nokia hasn't planned to have those binaries jumping to other servers out of its control, and therefore I understand legal advisers being between reluctant and cautious19:42
qgilespecially when there is not a clear business reason19:42
Woody14619qgil: ageed, but I think the issue here is that there's even less incentive to do something that would cause rights to relax *if* things are announced as spinning down and/or in an emergency situations (like a division sell-off).19:43
qgilitsnotabigtruck: touching an EULA is not simple at all19:43
itsnotabigtruckwith umpteen lawyers on staff to write the changed EULA, of course it is19:44
qgilitsnotabigtruck: where do you work, may I ask?19:45
Woody14619qgil: I think that's understood.  Which is why we're not asking for a re-write.  Just a simple addendum would be fine.  One that opens a very speicific use-case.19:45
qgilWoody14619: where do you work, may I ask?19:45
itsnotabigtrucki'm a uni student, who's interned at a few places19:45
itsnotabigtruckso not quite a seasoned professional yet but i have some sense of the complications19:45
Woody14619I've worked for Kodak, Xerox, and now for company that does aerial photography.19:46
qgilitsnotabigtruck: then give me a chance when I say that it's more complicated than you think - think of me the day you work with legal advisors19:46
Woody14619(so I've worked for big and small companies alike.)19:47
Woody14619I hold 3 pattents through Xerox, so I've worked with legal there and know the process it not fast... Which is why waiting for 6-months before is not viable IMHO.19:48
qgilWoody14619: do you think the egal advisors in those companies would find easy to touch a contract already written because a group not forming any legal entity is requesting it based on a scenario they would find totally improbable?19:48
javispedro" Nokia will have the right to terminate the Agreement for any reason at any19:48
javispedrotime, in its sole discretion, with a prior written notice of thirty (30) days." meh :)19:48
javispedroprobably, changing this eula needs slightly more thought than just adding the clause.19:49
qgiljavispedro: do you check the termination conditions of the checkboxes you click when using digital services / software?  :)19:49
Woody14619I never said it would be easy.  I'm frankly not even very hopefull it would happen.  But I still see not harm in at least asking.  I think the best way (one I plan on doing in the near future) would be to do the wording for the adendum and submit that as a starting point...19:49
javispedrowell, that is what Doc proposed, that we shall not care.19:49
qgil> not harm in at least asking ---> that's why I will ask, but I'm not holding my breath19:50
SD69qgil: we will form a legal entity if necessary19:50
qgiland I don't blame19:50
qgilSD69: by the time the Maemo community would find the time and energy to complete this process: how valuable those binaries would be?19:51
Woody14619And yes, I fully expect the existing clause javispedro just noted to stay in, which could render it all moot.  But frankly, having that specific carve-out would cause a much better sense of security in the community, and speed things up a bit on the build side.19:52
SD69qgil:  I could have an independent entity or a sponsored one in 3 months19:52
itsnotabigtruckyeah, it's unlikely that nokia would invoke the termination clause19:52
qgilSD69: with the confidence of representing the Maemo community?19:53
qgilAgain, I believe your time and energy can be better invested in more relevant things19:53
Woody14619qgil: If they're that invaluable, Nokia would be giving them away.  They're yet to do so for even rev 1 of the binaries.  Would they not be equally worthless becuase of the extra shelf time?  Yet Nokia still doesn't give those out.19:53
Woody14619qgil: I agree in most reguards... But if we have the time and tallent to go in multiple vectors, what's the harm in that?19:54
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qgilWoody14619: keeping status is safer and cheaper. Those legal advisors are busy keeping Nokia legally fit in this crazy industry19:55
SD69if Nokia says no to what we've asked, I think so - what future does Nokia offer to CSSU developers, for example?19:55
itsnotabigtruckthis is totally unrelated...but what if not just extras-fremantle and any potential extras-harmattan repo were highlighted on, but all important OBS repos19:56
Woody14619qgil: and you think that's going to get easier later?19:56
itsnotabigtruckor afm or whatever it ends up turning into19:56
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lbtwould a clear Q&A section on the maemo wiki about the SDK binary redistribution issue help?19:56
qgilNokia released software under certain conditions + offered a verbal "gentlemen" consent to allow the open source community to do R&D stuff with them as long as they would be used in Nokia devices. Isn't this more than what any other device manufacturer competing in the premier league has ever offered?19:56
itsnotabigtrucksort of...19:57
Woody14619gqil: Technically, no.  Openmoko is the penultimate in that reguard.  In major industry, yes.  That's apprecaited.  But not really the point.19:58
DocScrutinizeryou have to think a bit of the complexity of legal stuff in companies. As long as it's implying paperwork, other rules apply than for every day 'policies'19:58
itsnotabigtruckandroid's more open in more than a few ways, and some android mfgrs are actually supporting rom modding and rooting19:58
qgilWoody14619: well, I think it *is* the point.19:58
DocScrutinizerNokia can comfortably ignore any breach of the legal mambojambo they need to put in front of their binaries, due to parts of it not exactly owned by Nokia19:59
itsnotabigtruckwhere we are now with maemo and harmattan is far better than many platforms (such as wp7 :p)19:59
DocScrutinizerasking them to change the legal mambojambo might have opposite effects than what you hope for19:59
Woody14619Again, it's not Nokia I'm worried about, per se.19:59
itsnotabigtrucki mean, a lot of this is about avoiding counterparty risk that isn't there with android20:00
Woody14619It's what could happen if this division is sold off.. (Which could very easily happen with WP7 taking the lead.)20:00
qgilok, we're again banging the same heads on the same walls  :)20:01
Woody14619I've been in that situation, *very recently* with Kodak.  It's not pretty.20:01
lbtSD69: nb... as someone who's likely going to be paying the bill for the Mer C.OBS servers (and hence, is probably the most individually liable) I'd like some clarity on the distribution issue20:01
itsnotabigtruckbut anyway, it would be nice to have a single package browsing interface that would know about fremantle packages, harmattan packages, CSSU packages, app packages, lib packages, devel packages20:01
DocScrutinizerWoody14619: any company buying Nokia wouldn't invest money/lawyer-mantime to send desist letters to anybody hosting a 3rd party or (C)Nokia binary20:01
itsnotabigtruckaegis low, mid, and high security exposure packages20:01
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Woody14619qgil: one question I do have that you may know:20:01
DocScrutinizeresp not if that party is no competing company but a "community"20:02
Woody14619qgil: are payments to Neimen a lump-sum up front, or quarterly, or?  (If you're free to divulge that...)20:02
SD69lbt:  my hope is that we end up with a separate entity to protect you20:02
DocScrutinizerWoody14619: keep in mind with comapnies *all* is about money20:03
lbteventually we will - there's likely to be an interim period.... I'm not worried about it ... more interested in having some clarity20:03
qgilWoody14619: I don't know but I bet it's a monthly / quorterly payment under a longer term contract - why?20:04
DocScrutinizer$random-company can't earn money by sending desist letters to maemo.org20:04
Woody14619docscrutinizer: Tell that to the group that bought Kodak's sensor division.  We're in *just* that legal issue right now on distributing what were redistributable SDK components that are now not so under the new owner.20:04
lbtit may also help avoid the FUD issues20:04
Woody14619docscrutinizer: and lawyers are ACTIVLY involved...20:04
itsnotabigtruckDocScrutinizer: a lot of companies send c&d letters to everyone because they can20:04
itsnotabigtruckor DMCA takedowns anyway, which are cheap and easy20:04
itsnotabigtruckone of my projects a few years ago was an installer for zune apps, because MS made it stupidly difficult to install them20:05
DocScrutinizerthen if ever that happens, we are still free to got the rapidshare approach20:05
itsnotabigtruckit required bundling in MS .NET DLLs that have to be installed onto the zune20:05
qgilguys, if there are more questions... there s more work waiting here20:05
itsnotabigtruckthey dmca'd the downloads of everything that had those DLLs inside20:05
SD69lbt: do you have anyone providing proper, I mean formal, legal advice to you, Mer or afm?20:05
Woody14619qgil: just a curioslity.  After the megaupload issues, it's interesting to know sometimes how things are paid for and how that can affect quick changes.20:05
itsnotabigtruckwas there any business reason to do that? not at all, but they DMCA everything20:05
Jaffa_qgil: Can there be transparency after the Nemein contract is finalised about how much work has been contracted for20:05
itsnotabigtrucki expect companies like nokia to do the same20:05
itsnotabigtruckwhen you have full time lawyers it's cheap to do that20:06
qgilJaffa_: I don't see why not, but of course that would need an ok from Nemein's side as well20:06
Jaffa_qgil: ...and if it is a general "do MeeGo/Maemo stuff", "do x for" ...20:06
Jaffa_qgil: At least to the council. I remember when the *masters ramped down I _think_ it was effectively one full time employee20:06
qgilJaffa_: again, Nokia is not dictating Nemein what to do, except "keep the servers up & secure"20:06
Jaffa_qgil: Indeed, but Nemein can then say to the community that takes X %ge of BAU, leaving Y for proejct work20:07
Jaffa_qgil: I think it'd be useful to set realistic expectations on when/how much X-Fade can do20:07
Woody14619qgil: I think the idea is to try to get a guage of what LOE we can expect. :)20:07
qgilJaffa_: the only directions I'm aware of are the move to a ne server infra controlled by Nemein (now they are hosted in another, larger and more expensive Nokia provider, which is suboptimal)20:08
Jaffa_This'll be useful when the public discussion & prioritisation happens20:08
DocScrutinizerjust saying for now Nokia is very unlikely to invest money/time into legalese for closed binaries, as quim already mentioned20:08
lbtSD69: no, I'll be talking to eV (KDE) about it20:08
Jaffa_qgil: Yeah, so I'm wondering how much Nokia is paying for above the level which is needed to keep the servers *running* and so how much time Nokia is paying for to, say, move Autobuilder to OBS20:08
Woody14619sd69: did you see my pms?20:08
* lbt is a bit afk20:09
DocScrutinizerand by making too much noise you might attract notice of groups you better had kept away from the whole topic20:09
qgilJaffa_: as said, I have no problems disclosing e.g. how much hours per month Nemein estimates that are available beyond the regular maintenance tasks20:10
qgilhow _many_ hours, I mean (the more English I learn these days the more I forget what I got right in secondary school)20:10
DocScrutinizerthat's probably more to the point than Jaffa_ 's original question20:10
Woody14619qgil: Level Of Effort... what you just said.  time beyond maintainance.20:10
SD69lbt: if it's acceptable, I suggest we talk offline about the legal liabilities.  it's actually bad (in a legal sense) to discuss it online.  look at the debian patent policy, which recommends this20:11
Woody14619gqil: LOL. I've found school-taught language is never the same as real-world use. :)20:11
itsnotabigtruckespecially because this is a logged channel...why do you guys insist on publishing anything and everything20:11
itsnotabigtruckit's harmful20:11
qgilthe only reason to keep information private in this Nokia-Nemein contract is the common sense point of not disclosing amounts. I don't think there is anything secret in what Nemein actually do with that time20:12
itsnotabigtruckirc is supposed to be like two ships meeting in the night :)20:12
qgilSD69: ha! and you say so after asking me all these question in a public IRC meeting?  :)20:13
Woody14619IRC has been many things to many people... :)20:13
qgilok, anything else?20:13
DocScrutinizeryeah! thanks Quim!20:14
Woody14619nothing that won't wait for later. :)20:14
itsnotabigtruckbut seriously though, if the log bots were expunged from #meego, #maemo, #n9, #harmattan, #maemo-meeting, and anything else, the world would be a better place20:14
Woody14619Thanks for the info and listening!20:14
SD69qgil: I never advised how the proposal could help Nokia's liabilities.  I would also do that offline with you.20:14
qgilok, thank you all and see you arounds20:14
Woody14619And volunteering to take on this "headache"...  That's appreciated more than I think you know. :)20:14
DocScrutinizeritsnotabigtruck: that's BS20:15
qgilWoody14619:  a "pleasure"  ;)20:15
DocScrutinizerthere are always logs20:15
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itsnotabigtruckDocScrutinizer: logs which are seen only by the people who were there20:15
itsnotabigtrucki'm not talking about logging in general20:15
itsnotabigtrucki'm talking about putting all the logs up on the net to be indexed20:16
itsnotabigtruckthere's a world of difference there20:16
DocScrutinizeritsnotabigtruck: it's up to your imagination how many of those publish their logs, and how many aren't even users but bots20:16
itsnotabigtruck...on #harmattan there's 3 different bots that publish logs and they're obviously officially approved because they're voiced20:17
itsnotabigtruckyou're redirecting20:17
DocScrutinizerasuming whatever degree of privacy in a public channel is bizarre20:17
itsnotabigtruckthere's public and there's PUBLIC20:18
Woody14619The more that's logged, the harder stuff is to find. :)  And yes, assuming anything done on-line isn't indexed is kind of silly.20:18
itsnotabigtruckand channel log publishing is not at all a normal thing outside of a small number of channels20:19
itsnotabigtruckthe freenode website itself discourages it because a lot of people don't like it20:19
DocScrutinizeresp on a council meeting[!!}20:19
itsnotabigtruckfor perfectly valid reasons20:19
itsnotabigtrucki'l grant that logging the meeting makes sense20:19
itsnotabigtruckso ignore that...the issue applies to all the other channels though20:19
DocScrutinizerI'm leaving this topic to your gentle evaluation now, I'm busy with other things20:20
Woody14619If you want something not logged, use a private message... not that hard. ;)  (Also, not that private... knowing the underlying structure of IRC.)20:20
itsnotabigtruckWoody14619: again, i'm not talking about *logging*, i'm talking about *log publishing*20:21
itsnotabigtruckobviously a public irc channel is public, that is totally unrelated to what i'm talking about20:21
itsnotabigtruckand if the goal is to send a message to a channel, using a PM doesn't accomplish much20:22
Woody14619Yes,, well.. if you're so against it, setup your own IRC server and don't publish logs.  Then run for council and encourage private discussons to happen there. :)20:22
Woody14619It's all opensource. :)20:22
itsnotabigtruckor how about fixing the problem at the source20:23
Woody14619anyway... I need to get back to work.  Way over-exteneded my lunch break as it is. :)20:23
Woody14619I just told you how to do that:  Setup another IRC server and get people to move there.20:23
DocScrutinizeritsnotabigtruck: afaik all logbots support a form of log block. For povbot and many others it's a leading space20:23
itsnotabigtruckyou're suggesting that precisely because you know very well it's not practical20:23
Woody14619That is the source. :)20:23
itsnotabigtruckDocScrutinizer: povbot supports that, the others don't20:24
itsnotabigtruckno one on the channel knows about that anyway20:24
DocScrutinizernobody cares20:24
itsnotabigtruckactually infobot knows about that, povbot doesn't, i think20:24
Woody14619so, fix povbot.  (again, it's all open...)20:24
itsnotabigtruckthe end result is that leading space doesn't do anything on #harmattan20:24
itsnotabigtruckagain, not a solution, stop pretending it is one20:25
javispedrologs are now a problem?20:25
DocScrutinizersolution to which problem?20:25
itsnotabigtruckthe problem of having messages that ought to be ephemeral being broadcasted for eternity20:26
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Woody14619This is seriously cutting into my free time to start flame wars on TMO. XD  Anyway.. happy theorizing.  Off to make things work.20:26
DocScrutinizerI tend to agree logbots are maybe an issue on channels <20 users. Where you know each user and his dog "by name"20:27
DocScrutinizernot so on channels >200 users20:27
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DocScrutinizerodds are 5% of them are hidden bots anyway20:27
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itsnotabigtruck see "Common arguments for logging20:27
* RST38h yawns20:27
itsnotabigtruckand i don't really care about logs that much unless they're discoverable20:28
* DocScrutinizer re-yawns20:28
itsnotabigtruckif they're discoverable they're googleable20:28
itsnotabigtruckand that means they're easy to find20:28
itsnotabigtruckagain, i don't expect irc to be secret, it's not20:28
SpeedEvilThere is the issue that you accidentally post 'foo'20:28
SpeedEvilAnd then someone x years later is able to google foo + yournick20:28
itsnotabigtruckbut it's easy to tell if you have log bots, and it's easy to remove them20:29
DocScrutinizerooh, discoverable = googleable = findable (synonym for "discoverable")20:29
SpeedEviland get you into trouble20:29
itsnotabigtruckand afaik DocScrutinizer: you put one of them in there yourself20:29
itsnotabigtruckso it's kind of ridiculous to claim you don't know which ones they are20:29
itsnotabigtruckbecause it's your own policy to do the logging20:29
DocScrutinizernow you're starting to troll, or loose your mind20:29
itsnotabigtrucki suppose you already loosed your mind :p20:31
DocScrutinizerdang, that me20:34
DocScrutinizeranyway, not going to continue this a) OT and b) nonsensical argument here20:35
DocScrutinizerjust one last word: no, I dunno what'S a bot and what's a real human user. But one thing's for sure: YOU don't either20:36
DocScrutinizeryou seem to assume all bots got tagges +v by me, and thus al that doesn't have +v isn't a bot20:38
DocScrutinizerwhich is so obviously ridiculous20:39
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