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| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: mind me adding infobot for log purposes? | 14:47 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer | also please change /topic | 14:47 |
| DocScrutinizer | maybe ask x-fade to /cs flags $chan GeneralAntilles +sRfF | 14:49 |
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| ivgalvez-N900 | Hi, just testing my IRC plugin for Conversations | 15:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer | you're welcome to stay nevertheless | 15:03 |
| ivgalvez | that's the idea, I might need to be on the move during the meeting | 15:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer | \o/ povbot | 15:44 |
| DocScrutinizer | pabs3: thanks for spreading the word :-) | 15:45 |
| pabs3 | np :) | 15:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer | logs at http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclog/%23maemo-meeting.2012-04-17.log.html | 15:48 |
| * pabs3 wonders if any other channels should be notified | 15:49 | |
| DocScrutinizer | dunno of any beyond #harmattan and some #maemo-* lesser maemo chans | 15:50 |
| DocScrutinizer | #meego #mer #nemo ? don't think it's all on topic there | 15:50 |
| pabs3 | ok | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | up to the 'council' in the end ;-) | 15:51 |
| DocScrutinizer | Stskeeps: ^^ ? | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | i had trouble seeing how it was relevant in tizen, maybe more in #mer and #nemomobile ;) | 15:52 |
| DocScrutinizer | you're going to take appropriate measures to let your users know? | 15:52 |
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| Termana | Gee you're acting like this meeting is not going to be a few hairy guys, Maemo sheriffs and a toothless bandit | 15:54 |
| Termana | I'll let you decide who is who | 15:54 |
| javispedro | that might actually be an improvement =) | 15:54 |
| Stskeeps | i (sadly) have to be at driver's lessons for the first time today, so i won't be able to participate | 15:55 |
| Stskeeps | most people know my opinions though | 15:55 |
| Stskeeps | and you're free to ignore them ;) | 15:55 |
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| javispedro | you should list them somewhere =) | 15:58 |
| javispedro | (either way I have to leave for another meeting in a few minutes, but will be back in two hours, cya!) | 15:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | javispedro: cya :-D | 16:00 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: Search: Posts Made By: Stskeeps on talk.maemo.org ;) | 16:01 |
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| DocScrutinizer | tl;dr | 16:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | ;-) | 16:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | could somebody ask x-fade, jaffa, GeneralAntilles to update /topic? | 16:08 |
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| GeneralAntilles | DocScrutinizer, 0750? Really? :P | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | 0750?? | 16:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Time | 16:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | I was asleep. | 16:37 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o GeneralAntilles | 16:38 | |
| *** GeneralAntilles sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer | 16:38 | |
| *** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -o GeneralAntilles | 16:38 | |
| DocScrutinizer | :-D | 16:38 |
| *** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Council meeting. 2012-04-17 15:00 UTC | topics: see http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2012-April/005085.html" | 16:40 | |
| DocScrutinizer | GeneralAntilles: hi and morn'! :-D | 16:41 |
| * GeneralAntilles snores. | 16:41 | |
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| *** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +v SD69 | 17:58 | |
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| SD69 | hello | 18:00 |
| Woody14619 | Hi. :) | 18:00 |
| X-Fade | Hi | 18:00 |
| Woody14619 | Sorry for the lateness... conflicting real-world meeting. | 18:00 |
| DocScrutinizer | could we start with "introduction", who's here and what's his "role"? | 18:01 |
| lardman | not started yet | 18:01 |
| SD69 | let's start | 18:01 |
| lardman | do we expect more people, not many here yet? | 18:02 |
| lardman | e.g. QGil? | 18:02 |
| SD69 | I don't think we need introductions, except anybody new here please speak up | 18:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | would be nice to have quim here, yes | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | I think I dunno who's council | 18:03 |
| SD69 | the only council member here is me ;-) | 18:03 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok | 18:03 |
| Woody14619 | a few here are candidates for the next council (myself included). | 18:04 |
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| SD69 | is javispedro on? | 18:04 |
| javispedro | yep | 18:04 |
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| SD69 | let's start with topic 2 and return to 1 if and when QGil arrives | 18:05 |
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| SD69 | topic 2 is Community OBS | 18:05 |
| SD69 | this is a collaborative project with mer/nemo | 18:06 |
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| vgrade | vgrade \o | 18:06 |
| * freemangordon says hi | 18:07 | |
| SD69 | the meego build service will be terminated AIUI | 18:07 |
| SD69 | it has been proposed that the maemo extras autobuilder could be replaced with community OBS | 18:08 |
| SD69 | the response on ML has been generally favorable | 18:08 |
| SD69 | and a few have volunteered to help | 18:09 |
| javispedro | SD69: how do you want the meeting to proceed, shall we comment and raise questions at any moment? | 18:10 |
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| SD69 | X-Fade: would you like to describe the technical aspects of the proposal? | 18:10 |
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| X-Fade | SD69: Sure. | 18:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | what's the benefit of fuzzing around with maemo extras autobuilder? | 18:10 |
| RST38h | OMG live Quim | 18:10 |
| qgil | Hi, sorry for being late. Mum in Europe, me driving kids to school etc | 18:10 |
| SD69 | javispedro: I'll introduce a topic and then open for discussion | 18:11 |
| javispedro | SD69: ok, thanks | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | SD69: We'd need to setup a project in OBS where we import fremantle SDK. | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | SD69: I did a test once for PR1.2 and got it kind of working. | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | We need to see what issues arise when we build packages from Extras against this project. | 18:11 |
| X-Fade | Another thing we need to do is to setup cross building. | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | The Mer project is making great progress with using SB2 for accelerating, we could do the same. | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | Using SB2 in OBS that is. | 18:12 |
| X-Fade | This effort requires quite some figuring out and test building. We'd need some volunteers to help out. | 18:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | I still fail to see the motivation | 18:14 |
| X-Fade | But once it works, it will open up a lot of opportunities. | 18:14 |
| X-Fade | It would be a lot easier for the community to manage the repositories and keep them in a consistent state. | 18:14 |
| lardman | DocScrutinizer: afaiu to have an open build system just in case Nokia/maemo.org goes away | 18:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | good point | 18:15 |
| X-Fade | I proposed to have a separate meeting to talk about the technical implementation though. | 18:15 |
| javispedro | and maybe it will be necessary | 18:15 |
| SD69 | I think it would be good to have a "task force" once a decision is made | 18:15 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, makes sense. | 18:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | +1 | 18:16 |
| SD69 | today is not for making a decision, but for raising issues | 18:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | how likely is it that C-OBS could be itself terminated in the mid to long term | 18:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i understand that it involves a significant number of buildboxes and therefore is probably not inexpensive to keep running | 18:16 |
| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: we have gotten an unofficial, 2 years after last release of MeeGo. | 18:16 |
| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: But we also have servers at maemo.org. | 18:17 |
| javispedro | in any case, I think if we still have the old buildsystem, no one will dare to move it or upgrade it | 18:17 |
| javispedro | so it will die when maemo.org dies | 18:18 |
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| vgrade | we are planning for this, http://www.mail-archive.com/mer-general@lists.merproject.org/msg00367.html | 18:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | and I'm reluctant to "touch a running system" | 18:18 |
| X-Fade | Sure, but maemo.org will not die any time soon anyway. | 18:18 |
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| lardman | X-Fade: how long is maemo.org paid up for? | 18:18 |
| javispedro | with "someone's else" build server that we do not have to fully maintain, getting it to work in a apocalyptic scenario could be as easy as buying some amazon computing time | 18:19 |
| X-Fade | lardman: See Quim's statement. | 18:19 |
| javispedro | (by donations, etc.) | 18:19 |
| SD69 | this proposal is actually being driven by Mer proposal for community OBS | 18:19 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: If we have it all in OBS, migrating it to any server is easy. | 18:19 |
| javispedro | yep, that is what I wanted to say :) | 18:20 |
| Jaffa_ | Right, but the interests of the Mer project aren't necessarily aligned with those of maemo.org; even if the same people may be doing the work. | 18:20 |
| SD69 | Jaffa: true in many respects | 18:20 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: Well, not really. | 18:20 |
| Jaffa_ | SD69: For example, Mer is more concerned about use of Nokia proprietary binaries; when Extras Autobuilder already has such permissions | 18:20 |
| X-Fade | ehm Jaffa :) | 18:20 |
| SD69 | but there is overlap too | 18:21 |
| Woody14619 | JAffa_: I think having a uniform build system would be advantagious though, since it would promote cross-porting. | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa_: Yeah, but we can work around things like that. | 18:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, it would be desirable to have one platform, all targets | 18:21 |
| Jaffa_ | SD69: Whereas that's not an issue which should affect maemo.org OBS usage in any way, as it should be identical to the arrangements for the Autobuilder. | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: For sure. | 18:21 |
| Jaffa_ | X-Fade: That's my point, it's not an "issue" for maemo.org | 18:21 |
| DocScrutinizer | Woody14619: good point | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa_: Yeah, so you set up a so called OBS link and you are done. | 18:21 |
| qgil | lardman: maemo.org budget assured until end of 2012. Budget reviews are done every 6 months. The funding of maemo.org has been like this since 1995. Business as usual. | 18:22 |
| X-Fade | You can host your binaries elsewhere if needed. | 18:22 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa_: There is also concern in the Maemo community for use of those SDKs in COBS if/after Maemo.com goes away. (Date not yet set.) | 18:22 |
| lardman | qgil: thanks | 18:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | right, it would be extremely nice if it would be possible to e.g. flip a switch on my mosh port, and make a new build for fremantle | 18:22 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa_:So, it is a bit of a concern for Maemo... just not as urgent. | 18:22 |
| Jaffa_ | Woody14619: Indeed, but a) I think OBS vs. autobuilder isn't that much of an impediment to porting as much as Qt Components; b) it's OBS itself which is the learning curve, not any instance of it nor who's managing it | 18:22 |
| Jaffa_ | X-Fade: "You" == you, as you're paid to work on maemo.org still (AFAIK ;-)) | 18:23 |
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| Jaffa_ | X-Fade: Plus lots of ppl coming out of the woodwork to volunteer | 18:23 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa_: Yeah, well I'm all for it ;) | 18:24 |
| Jaffa_ | Woody14619: Yes, but that's not an issue of moving to OBS and - as X-Fade says - having OBS makes it easier to get up and running on different servers. The continued usage of Nokia binaries is a later point in the agenda IIRC | 18:24 |
| X-Fade | I just need other people to help as it is complicated to get working and is a lot of work to sort out. | 18:24 |
| javispedro | X-Fade: a question: how costly would be to make maemo.org/packages point to COBS? | 18:24 |
| Jaffa_ | X-Fade: Me too, but I don't think it needs to be driven from a Mer point of view. If there's shared work, great. But we shouldn't let any hold ups of Mer (e.g. Nokia binaries) hold up a maemo.org implementation | 18:24 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: We already are able to import harmattan packages so that is not a big deal. | 18:25 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: Ah, wait. The other way around as I was thinking. | 18:25 |
| Jaffa_ | X-Fade: javispedro: I'm sure AFM would like a /packages/ view too, so some reuse the other way there? | 18:25 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa_: I think in the long term we've got more in common with Mer in reguards to binaries... They're just on an accelerated track. But as you said, that's future agenda. | 18:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | how's any transition from current maemo extras autobuilder to some COBS based thing going to happen seamlessly, without major downtimes or even permanent new bugs introduced? | 18:26 |
| Stskeeps | if it's done with the obs link, i perosnally don't have any problems | 18:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | one problem is that right now there's a lot of operational issues related to AfM and buildependencies, libraries, and so on | 18:26 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa_: It is actually semi there already, but it is not visible :) | 18:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i hope those issues don't become permanent, and moreover get inherited by this new maemo arrangement | 18:26 |
| javispedro | itsnotabigtruck: that's more of an issue with the client app, not obs itself I think | 18:26 |
| lardman | Woody14619: I thought we were discussing using the Mer build infra, not trying to rebase maemo packages on Mer? | 18:26 |
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| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: By using an OBS we can better delegate that. | 18:27 |
| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: Dependencies are no issue in OBS. It just needs people to come up with a policy and wanting to be a dependable maintainer. | 18:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | javispedro: partly...the root of the problem is that you can't make arbitrary build dependencies available to your app when submitting into any sort of central repo | 18:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and that's sort of an OBS problem | 18:28 |
| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: It is not. It is just that we don't allow it now. | 18:28 |
| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: Pure policy, not technical. | 18:28 |
| Jaffa_ | X-Fade: Right, but it *is* allowed in Extras. So, as you say, someone's got to do the work to come up with a usable policy for it in COBS | 18:28 |
| javispedro | Note that I am not aware of problems with build-deps, I am aware with the AFM problem with deps (a restriction I would like to set lifted btw :) ) | 18:29 |
| Jaffa_ | X-Fade: Unless it can be enabled/used in one portion of COBS (maemo.org Extras) and not another (AFM) | 18:29 |
| Woody14619 | lardman: afaiu it's about adding targets to share COBS for Harmattan and possibly Fremantle (and Diablo, etc). Not rebasing per-se, but having the same build structure with different targets would promote cross-dev, forward and backward. | 18:29 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa_: Yeps. | 18:29 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa_: You can do it per project. | 18:29 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: THere is no problem with deps in afm, we just don't allow them to be external :) | 18:30 |
| Jaffa_ | Woody14619: Have you tried cross-dev? I think you're overstating the aspect the build system has when Fremantle -> Harmattan involves Gtk+ -> Qt and Harmattan <-> Mer has potential QML issues (less so than Fremantle <-> Harmattan, tho') | 18:30 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: But that is done to keep thing simple. | 18:30 |
| javispedro | yes, I can think why | 18:30 |
| javispedro | which is I understand it is not entirely simple to lift | 18:30 |
| javispedro | this reminds me. my question regarding the maemo.org/packages interface was: there's a lot of code there (promotion, testers, supertesters) | 18:31 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: It just needs a group of people willing to work on it. | 18:31 |
| javispedro | code and policy | 18:31 |
| lardman | X-Fade: and that is a potential problem, seeing that there aren't all that many people here | 18:31 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: I'd rather move away from the old /packages code. | 18:31 |
| javispedro | what is going to happen with that. is it reasonable that it will be put on top of cobs repos? will we move to AFM infrastructure? | 18:31 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa_: Yes, there are issues as stated. But some things would be easier (libs, CLI, script-based, etc). | 18:32 |
| itsnotabigtruck | maybe appsformeego and the extras frontend could be agglomerated into one | 18:32 |
| X-Fade | lardman: Then we need to ask our selves if it is really worth it. | 18:32 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: willing and able is the problem | 18:32 |
| lardman | X-Fade: +1 | 18:32 |
| X-Fade | SD69: Community is what you make of it. | 18:32 |
| X-Fade | SD69: If nobody cares or is able, then we can go home. | 18:32 |
| X-Fade | There is nobody to hold our hands, we got to do this ourselves. Or it doesn't get done. | 18:33 |
| SD69 | let's talk about whether we have the resources to do community OBS and how long it would take | 18:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | I still wonder who's providing a working oldstyle extras autobuilder during times of migrations, and how | 18:34 |
| SD69 | so far, javispedro, timoph and pycage have offered to help | 18:34 |
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| * lbt notes that some people (like me) make time to look after certain bits of infra - consolidating infra management across groups usually means small incremental increase in load for large benefit for groups. | 18:34 | |
| SD69 | but I suspect more is needed?? | 18:34 |
| X-Fade | DocScrutinizer: It is where it is and will stay active. | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | ok | 18:34 |
| Woody14619 | Doc: The existing ones are not going away. Doing it now gives us the time to migrate, vs doing after a close. | 18:34 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so we're talking about a) fremantle OBS target, b) migration of extras package into OBS, c) migration of extras frontend over OBS (possibly replacing it with something appsformeego based) | 18:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | so 'new' one is a parallel "infra"? | 18:34 |
| javispedro | fremantle, diablo, and chinook. | 18:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | C definitely sounds like the hard part | 18:35 |
| X-Fade | DocScrutinizer: Yes, with the idea to some day replace it. | 18:35 |
| javispedro | itsnotabigtruck: I concur... | 18:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | fine | 18:35 |
| lardman | do we have download stats for e.g. the chinook repo? How many people are still using these devices? | 18:35 |
| Woody14619 | Do we need to do C? Can't we have OBS just push to the existing repos for now? Then tackle the next part when needed? | 18:35 |
| lbt | (is there a live meeting log?) | 18:35 |
| X-Fade | lardman: It is very very low. I'm not sure if it still logs.. | 18:36 |
| javispedro | lardman: only two builds per year. So yes, definitely not mandatory, but I think it's not going to be the costliest think. | 18:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Woody14619: well, all the promotion infrastructure needs to know about OBS, right? | 18:36 |
| javispedro | *most costly thing | 18:36 |
| merlin1991 | lbt: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclog/latest.log.html | 18:36 |
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| SD69 | merlin1991: thks | 18:36 |
| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: We now use BOSS for promotion/testing etc, together with a web interface. It is al lot cleaner. | 18:37 |
| Jaffa_ | The benefit has to be getting off the autobuilder entirely. That can be incremental (do Fremantle or Diablo first, then Diablo or Fremantle, then Chinook) | 18:38 |
| lardman | javispedro: I'm just thinking about the effort required to more the builders across to build compatible code now (and there are still working builders, repos, etc.), as opposed to the Mer-base porting efforts going on to target legacy devices (which will give them more longevity) | 18:38 |
| lardman | s/more/move | 18:38 |
| *** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Council meeting. 2012-04-17 15:00 UTC | topics: see http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2012-April/005085.html | livelog at http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-meeting-irclog/latest.log.html" | 18:38 | |
| Jaffa_ | lardman: Rebasing Maemo packages has to be something separate. That may be easier with COBS but out of scope for now | 18:38 |
| javispedro | lardman: well, I am unsure about the effort as of yet. | 18:38 |
| Jaffa_ | So, proposed rough plan? (Although the folks who've volunteered will need to come up with an actual plan) | 18:38 |
| lardman | Jaffa_: sure, but it needs to be evaluated along side | 18:38 |
| Woody14619 | afaik one can push packages in deb form (not the preferd way, but possible). Couldn't COBS use that route at start? | 18:38 |
| lardman | javispedro: I'm also not sure on progress, and potential success either | 18:39 |
| javispedro | lardman: but I believe that, if fremantle is moved, moving diablo and chinook will naturaly come. | 18:39 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: Yes, you can import binary repositories. But they have a lot of other issues in OBS. | 18:39 |
| Jaffa_ | 1) Move autobuilder to use OBS; rsync OBS repos into existing ones to avoid changes to maemo.org/packages, /downloads or QA processes at maemo.org. | 18:39 |
| itsnotabigtruck | uploading local builds of packages would be against the whole idea of having reproduceable open-source builds, but it would lower the barrier to entry a lot | 18:39 |
| Jaffa_ | 2) Consolidate code (if not infrastructure as well) between maemo.org QA process and AFM QA process. | 18:40 |
| Jaffa_ | 3) Consolidate code (if not infrastructure as well) between maemo.org/downloads and AFM | 18:40 |
| Jaffa_ | 4) Erm, profit? | 18:40 |
| X-Fade | I'd really like to see if we can get to some kind of production quality Extras on OBS. | 18:40 |
| javispedro | I am really worried about the viability of the webby side of things. | 18:40 |
| X-Fade | If we can do that, then we can decide what to do next. But this is already a big step :) | 18:40 |
| javispedro | More scared about the web side than of problems with scratchboxisms even =) | 18:41 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: If you make the OBS side work, then I'll look into the webbie parts :) | 18:41 |
| Jaffa_ | javispedro: There's push to revamp maemo.org's QA processes as well; and AFM has taken an approach (discussed at meegoconf) where we took what we learned from maemo.org | 18:41 |
| javispedro | will there more hackers capable of working with BOSS than with sbdmock and midgard? | 18:41 |
| Jaffa_ | javispedro: That's why in my plan we tackle the building aspect (#1) separate to the web UI (#2) | 18:41 |
| javispedro | (note that I not in either group) | 18:41 |
| javispedro | *I am not | 18:42 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: General knowledge about building etc will get you a long way. | 18:42 |
| Stskeeps | boss is easy, python and process description | 18:43 |
| Woody14619 | Jaffa_: Agreed, that's why I'm saying C isn't a huge issue, since by time A gets done, people may be more than happy to change how C is done anyway. | 18:43 |
| Stskeeps | i learnt it in 5 hours | 18:43 |
| qgil | Then I guess it's 5 hours for me | 18:43 |
| qgil | I mean 5 days | 18:43 |
| qgil | :) | 18:43 |
| Jaffa_ | Woody14619: Agreed entirely. Problem needs to be broken down into manageable chunks. Iterative and agile is the way | 18:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i definitely like the idea of combining the good parts of fremantle and harmattan infrastructure into a combined app distribution system | 18:43 |
| javispedro | so, you saying will be relatively easy to implement all the wacky promotion policies? :) | 18:43 |
| Jaffa_ | javispedro: Or we take it as an opportunity to review them ;-) | 18:44 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: Yes, that part is easy. | 18:44 |
| X-Fade | javispedro: That is done already for AFM. | 18:44 |
| Woody14619 | Ok, I love you all, but... I know we had more agenda items... and we're going in circles, 45 mis in... Next item maybe? :) | 18:44 |
| * merlin1991 wants to offer his help and time aswell | 18:44 | |
| Jaffa_ | IOW, after #1 in my proposed plan, we only have COBS feeding Extras-devel (from people's home repos?) or Extras-testing. Promotion code to Extras itself remains unchanged. | 18:44 |
| SD69 | yes, let's wrap up and move to another topic | 18:44 |
| X-Fade | As said, let's plan a Fremantle on OBS meeting.. | 18:44 |
| javispedro | Jaffa_: ok :) | 18:45 |
| ivgalvez | Would that affect repository addresses? | 18:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i guess we were going to go and do [1] when qgil arrived | 18:45 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Only at a later stage. | 18:45 |
| *** lizardo has joined #maemo-meeting | 18:45 | |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: And even then we might decide that it doesn't ;) | 18:45 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: what help do you need with the fremantle on OBS meeting? | 18:46 |
| Jaffa_ | Ideally, of course, it never would. But certainly not after just changing the builder (i.e. #1 of my suggested ordering) | 18:46 |
| * Jaffa_ steps away breifly | 18:46 | |
| X-Fade | SD69: Should we set a date/time now? | 18:46 |
| SD69 | I'd rather do it another time, but don't want it to be dropped... | 18:47 |
| Woody14619 | I think it would be best to do so, so we can announce it to the list/forum for those who want to help. | 18:47 |
| X-Fade | SD69: I'll follow up on the list. | 18:47 |
| ivgalvez | My concern is that most users not active on TMO won't know about changing their repo for Extras | 18:47 |
| javispedro | and let's revive the maemo.org wiki for this, or at least do a task page as in the old days | 18:47 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Don't worry about that, that won't be needed at all. | 18:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | can't an HTTP redirect be set on the old repo url? | 18:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that said, that's the final stage | 18:47 |
| javispedro | there's tasks to do, and there's people, so maybe something can get done :) | 18:47 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and the latest of the problems | 18:48 |
| itsnotabigtruck | *least | 18:48 |
| Woody14619 | ivgalvez: We could easily push a repo change via extras... update a key package with no delta but a repo add. | 18:48 |
| SD69 | let's move back to topic 1 | 18:48 |
| SD69 | we have Qgil back again | 18:48 |
| DocScrutinizer | \o/ | 18:49 |
| qgil | hi | 18:49 |
| SD69 | many things are the same as a year ago, but new things too | 18:49 |
| SD69 | qgil: can you explain what events led you back to us (except you missed maemo ;-) ) | 18:50 |
| qgil | SD69: the MeeGo team (I was part of until November) is being ramped down by phases | 18:51 |
| qgil | The people that was responsible of the maemo.org infrastructure have given the responsibilities (Matii included) to a team under Nokia Developer | 18:52 |
| qgil | Pekka Kosonen is nopw the responsible of the budget and the connection with N9/Harmattan activities | 18:53 |
| qgil | maintenance etc | 18:53 |
| qgil | I volunteered to be the frontend with the community and save Pekka a headache or two :) | 18:53 |
| qgil | Pekka and me are in different teams (I'm in the Qt team) but both under Nokia Developer, no big deal | 18:53 |
| qgil | that's it | 18:54 |
| qgil | PS: for me it's early morning and I have time to extend the meeting if needed | 18:55 |
| SD69 | thanks, these are anxious times for maemo (because of Nokia/WP7 alliance) | 18:55 |
| SD69 | let's move on to topic 3 | 18:55 |
| qgil | well, that alliance it's been there for more than a year. Maybe it's time to leave anxiety behind? | 18:55 |
| lardman | qgil: then we move onto share prices ;) | 18:55 |
| ivgalvez | Let's focus on actual issues | 18:56 |
| SD69 | qgil: if you say so..., nice that we are together again | 18:56 |
| qgil | If full time employees got over this maybe community contributors could as well - or do something else. Your choice, but I recommend you to get stressed about the right things :) | 18:56 |
| SD69 | council elections require work too | 18:56 |
| qgil | lardman: not even share prices make me anxious tbh | 18:56 |
| SD69 | Dave Neary is not available to help | 18:56 |
| lardman | qgil: tongue-in-cheek, don't worry | 18:56 |
| qgil | but then again, why maemo.org cares about the stock exchange? | 18:56 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: will you be helping with the vote or someone else at Nemein? | 18:57 |
| X-Fade | SD69: No problem, will sort it out. | 18:57 |
| qgil | I guess it would sound bad that King George would say that maybe a council overhead is not needed to get things done ;) | 18:57 |
| SD69 | The dates comes up in early May. | 18:57 |
| X-Fade | SD69: if/when there are enough candidates. | 18:58 |
| lardman | qgil: from my point of view, while I've read the rumours about Meltemi, there is a concern that if costs have to be cut, then something that is not generating production devices will be the thing that is cut - not that I am partiocularly concerned, as I realise I don't know what's going on in Nokia | 18:58 |
| *** Sicelo_ has quit IRC | 18:58 | |
| X-Fade | lardman: I think you need to look at orders of magnitude in budgets :) | 18:59 |
| lardman | X-Fade: again this is data I'm not privy to, any again not worried as people who are working at the coal face seem unconcerned | 18:59 |
| qgil | lardman: if you want to guess a corporation you need to think like one. How much is the cost of maemo.org and how much would be the "cost" of dealing with a swith off of the servers. Even if Nokia would want to get rid og maemo.org (which I'll insist again it's not the case) this evaluation would be made | 18:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | given the fact even warranty hw support for N900 got cut down to zero before even the legal warranty period expired on most devices sold in EU... | 18:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, it's definitely the case that maemo app distribution etc. should ideally become more independent so that we aren't relying on the beneficence of a company that already dropped this platform | 18:59 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: I will confirm the date. courtesy of qqwazix, we will put up a banner to advertize | 18:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | I tend to agree with lardman 's concerns | 19:00 |
| itsnotabigtruck | because that doesn't seem like a winning long-term strategy | 19:00 |
| merlin1991 | how many candidates are there currently? | 19:00 |
| javispedro | meh, there _have_ to be enough candidates, so this is an encouragement for people to nominate =) | 19:00 |
| X-Fade | DocScrutinizer: For everything Harmattan, same infra is being used. | 19:00 |
| ivgalvez | I nominate SD69 | 19:01 |
| javispedro | I feel like if both the oldest timers and the newest newcomers groups are little represented :) | 19:01 |
| SD69 | there are currently four candidates - a vote is required | 19:01 |
| qgil | as said, you can keep worrying. I'll let you know if there is something actually tangible for you to worry about | 19:01 |
| lardman | lol, thanks | 19:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | X-Fade: yes, that's why I'm all for integration of harmattan with fremantle&pre infra | 19:01 |
| Woody14619 | As I understand, there are already 4 accepted candidates, and at least 3 nominated that have yet to accept (looking at you SD69... ;) | 19:01 |
| X-Fade | If there _is_ something to worry about, things will certainly not be switched off without warning. | 19:01 |
| SD69 | next topic - license of maemo binaries | 19:02 |
| ivgalvez | I would say that someone more Harmattanish is also needed in the council | 19:02 |
| SD69 | let's make it easy and say for purposes of community OBS | 19:02 |
| ivgalvez | Estel and me are Maemoish | 19:02 |
| X-Fade | I don't understand that people see it as something different :) | 19:02 |
| qgil | ivgalvez: you won't find them here - why not opening a thread in the Harmattan forum? | 19:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | right, for all intents and purposes harmattan is maemo, and the infighting about that needs to stop | 19:03 |
| lardman | itsnotabigtruck: long term strategy is to port a newer base (and indeed whole newer platform) to the hw so that people keep developing for the devices; in addition to developers moving to a newer platform/device, the number of working devices will also drop | 19:03 |
| itsnotabigtruck | right now harmattan is relegated to 2 forums on t.m.o, and there's no harmattan content on the rest of the maemo.org site | 19:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this enhanced combined obs extras project might resolve the latter part | 19:04 |
| SD69 | qgil: can you comment on licensing of maemo binaries for community OBS purposes? | 19:04 |
| qgil | I believe I need help (from X-Fade ) to understand really what does this mean | 19:05 |
| qgil | The binaries released have the linceses they have. There is a Harmattan target in AFM. Wjat else do you need? | 19:05 |
| Woody14619 | itsnotabigtruck: I think the issue is that it would be nice to have someone from that camp involved, since like it or not there is a divide. I'd also love to see someone from the Diablo community on Council. Even a cross-memeber (N900/N9 combo owner) would be nice. | 19:05 |
| javispedro | qgil: fremantle/diablo targets (including nokia binaries) | 19:06 |
| X-Fade | qgil: I guess the problem is that SDK, specifically nokia binaries are behind the EULA. | 19:06 |
| X-Fade | qgil: And they can't be redistributed. | 19:06 |
| SD69 | I believe the licenses don't fit for a community project shared with Mer | 19:06 |
| itsnotabigtruck | right, the licensing situation for that is rather problematic | 19:06 |
| qgil | so what is going beyond that EULA to have an OBS target? | 19:06 |
| qgil | I need to understand, in order to explain it to Nokia legal team | 19:06 |
| X-Fade | qgil: Hosted binaries by somebody else than Nokia. | 19:07 |
| qgil | how is AFM doing it now? | 19:07 |
| X-Fade | qgil: We setup an OBS link. | 19:07 |
| X-Fade | qgil: So we have the SDK on a Nokia server and link to that from the MeeGo one. | 19:08 |
| javispedro | (and allow me to say that it worked horribly slowly :P) has that been fixed? | 19:08 |
| qgil | what is the big problem of keeping this practice? Again Nokia disappearing from the map tomorrow? | 19:08 |
| X-Fade | qgil: Then the SDK would go away. | 19:08 |
| X-Fade | qgil: And building is not possible anymore. | 19:08 |
| X-Fade | qgil: And the community can upload the SDK somewhere else to continue. | 19:08 |
| qgil | But in a scenario where Nokia would not disappear tomorrow? Is that an issue? | 19:08 |
| X-Fade | *can't | 19:08 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's a legitimate risk | 19:09 |
| lardman | qgil: Nokia may decide they don't want to host the SDK | 19:09 |
| X-Fade | Well, you could host the SDK elsewhere but that is a legal problem. | 19:09 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: There is an issue around speed, as javispedro noted as well. | 19:09 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: That is a minor issue compared to the legal one. | 19:09 |
| SD69 | also, collaboration with Mer/Nemo is desireable to be possible | 19:10 |
| qgil | Are these Nokia binaries really Nokia binaries only, or are there 3rd party binaries as well? | 19:10 |
| * DocScrutinizer points at flasher | 19:10 | |
| X-Fade | qgil: Both | 19:10 |
| Woody14619 | X-fade: Another concern could be net usage. Depending on the final home, if there are restrictions on use, pulling those per build would start to add up. | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | indeed | 19:11 |
| X-Fade | Woody14619: They don't get pulled per build. | 19:11 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: afaik all (C)Nokia | 19:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the main issue is that redistribution limitations don't protect nokia business interests and do limit developer flexibility | 19:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and developer flexibility provides value to nokia | 19:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'd not know of 3rd party | 19:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | for any 3rd party binaries we're screwed as Nokia can't do anything | 19:12 |
| qgil | What I'm seeing (honestly) is that the business/legal task is bigger than you think, while that "legitimate risk" causing this work is (honestly) smaller than what you say | 19:12 |
| Woody14619 | There was discussion on the list of simple "expaning" the EULA to allow 3rd party distribution of unmodified binaries for works targeting Nokia-based devices. | 19:13 |
| qgil | I've been at Nokia since 1995, there have been some changes, deprecations, etc. One common denominator has been warnings with time to react | 19:13 |
| Woody14619 | (*expanding) | 19:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so how are we supposed to react when nokia shuts down harmattan-dev.nokia.com | 19:13 |
| itsnotabigtruck | without the license change being done in advance | 19:14 |
| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: All the same infra. | 19:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: if it were you instead of Elop, nobody was concerned ;-) | 19:14 |
| qgil | itsnotabigtruck: no, you would react if/when Nokia announces that harmattan-dev.nokia.com will be rampdown on yyyy-mm-dd | 19:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | qgil: by mirroring it...except the license prohibits it | 19:14 |
| qgil | DocScrutinizer: Elop gave me more than a year to figure out what to do next... | 19:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and then it's not unlikely the nokia lawyers will start firing off the DMCA takedown notices etc. | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | fair enough | 19:15 |
| javispedro | meh, if Nokia is gone, their lawyers are too ;P | 19:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 19:16 |
| qgil | I honestly believe here and now it is more useful to put our time and attention on other topics | 19:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | and - honestly - I haven't heard of them up til now | 19:16 |
| SD69 | the community is investing in maemo and looking for the investment to last beyond 6 months | 19:16 |
| qgil | SD69: same here | 19:16 |
| SD69 | but Nokia holds all the cards... | 19:16 |
| qgil | SD69: ??? | 19:17 |
| qgil | The Maemo community is deciding where the Maemo community wants to go (if anywhere), not Nokia | 19:17 |
| qgil | saying that the Maemo community can't do really a thing because those bineries need to be redistributable or hosted somewhere esle looks to me an exxaggeration (again, honestly) | 19:18 |
| DocScrutinizer | let's set up mirrors/whatever, and when Nokia (their lawyers) gets concerned, then they either opt to send takedown notices or rather work out some licence change | 19:18 |
| merlin1991 | besides the end of nokia talk, whatabout the issue said javispedro brought up (speed of the linked setup) | 19:18 |
| SD69 | saying we can do something for six months is not attractive | 19:18 |
| X-Fade | SD69: It is > 6 months | 19:19 |
| X-Fade | Where > is infinity for now. | 19:19 |
| qgil | Is it useful to look back at history? When has Nokia pulled down or made a radical change without a prior notice of half year or more? | 19:19 |
| javispedro | I concur with merlin1991. X-Fade, you said it is minor, but it is workaroundable even if we have to keep using the OBS link? | 19:19 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: 12 months, even | 19:19 |
| X-Fade | No, it is infinity unless changed. | 19:19 |
| * javispedro thinks of the elop wp announcement =) | 19:20 | |
| qgil | that's right, the default situation is "renew" - and argument needs to be done to justify "stop" | 19:20 |
| qgil | I haven't heard any "stop" argument | 19:20 |
| SD69 | qgil: when has something like 2/11 happened before? that was unthinkable with Nokia 10 years ago - it's a new world | 19:20 |
| lardman | surely that would eventually come for a legacy platform? | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | qgil: when stopping to service/repair N900, Nokia definitely did | 19:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | semi-related topic: is there any confirmation that a harmattan pr1.3 sdk will be released - there's been rumors of that, but that's all | 19:20 |
| DocScrutinizer | even while EU warranty still required them to service devices | 19:21 |
| qgil | javispedro: elop wp announcement also gave 6 months or more for everybody | 19:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | that becomes a significant problem with OBS because there's a large number of APIs added post-pr1.0 and right now the public sdk is held back to pr1.0 api level | 19:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | whereas even ovi store has moved up to pr1.1 api level | 19:21 |
| qgil | SD69: ask Nokia oldtimers and they have seen changes more radical than that | 19:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's not that hard to work around that with local builds but it's very difficult to work around with an arrangement such as C-OBS | 19:22 |
| X-Fade | itsnotabigtruck: OBS has been updated to current SDK. | 19:22 |
| SD69 | qgil: don't know on the cellphone side... | 19:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | X-Fade: current sdk is pr1.0 sdk | 19:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | unless something was just released within the past few days | 19:22 |
| X-Fade | Shall we continue with the meeting, I have to go in 10 minutes. | 19:23 |
| SD69 | the community is saying that without a future, it will stop | 19:23 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: I wouldn't have expected Kodak divisions I worked in 5 years ago to be gone in a blink of an eye, yet they're in Chapter 11 now, and may not pull out. Even big companies can go away unexpectedly. | 19:23 |
| qgil | it's 4/12 and here we are, funding the maemo.org infra and maintenance. Just renewing a contract with Nemein as we speak | 19:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | well, we covered [1], [2] | 19:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | briefly covered [3] | 19:23 |
| SD69 | let's do the last topic | 19:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i think the harmattan sdk swlc business was [A]? | 19:23 |
| SD69 | co-maintainership of CSSU | 19:24 |
| * X-Fade has a wild idea about that. | 19:24 | |
| merlin1991 | ... | 19:24 |
| SD69 | is this moot? | 19:24 |
| qgil | Woody14619: even when "companies go away unexpectedly" they actually ramp down things properly in most cases. | 19:24 |
| X-Fade | That would be the perfect test case for fremantle on OBS :) | 19:24 |
| javispedro | I knew you were going to suggest that :) | 19:24 |
| ivgalvez | I would like also to add to the discussion the possibility to push CSSU as an upgrade for all users (optional) | 19:24 |
| merlin1991 | SD69: it's still an issue though we've worked around it in the most ugliest way possible | 19:25 |
| ivgalvez | but now only TMO followers now about CSSU | 19:25 |
| qgil | wait SD69 what is the conclusion from the last point? | 19:25 |
| X-Fade | ivgalvez: Realistically, those are the only people interested in it also. | 19:25 |
| qgil | It would be nice to have something settlet, or something allowing all of us of moving forward with this discussion | 19:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | ivgalvez: sounds insane | 19:25 |
| qgil | I don't feel like having to explain the same every time someone feel anxious about the future of Nokia | 19:26 |
| merlin1991 | X-Fade: how much work is it to set up ie a garage group that can be maintained to goervn the upload rights to cssu (like the supertesters)? | 19:26 |
| SD69 | qgil: I thought you said no... | 19:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | ivgalvez: we might think about publishing an "official notice", maybe in form of an app | 19:26 |
| itsnotabigtruck | might it be possible to run the CSSU out of the enhanced combined c-obs? | 19:26 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: I think the ask is that Nokia consider expanding the EULA to allow limited 3rd party use/storage of Nokia binaries for build use. | 19:26 |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: Think shell scripts.. | 19:26 |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: And unix permissions, that is how basic it is :) | 19:26 |
| merlin1991 | acl, and be happy? | 19:27 |
| SD69 | qgil: not future of Nokia, future of maemo - inextricably linked? | 19:27 |
| qgil | But is it understood and shared my reasoning for not touching the current situation for now? | 19:27 |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: So, we can put some people in a unix group on the box itself. But it is one ugly mess. | 19:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i was talking on #harmattan about repo signing earlier | 19:28 |
| merlin1991 | well the fact is that the current situation is even messier | 19:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | applications for obs such as CSSU would be a good reason to have repo signing enabled | 19:28 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: I think we understand your reasoning. We simply disagree with the conclusions. :) | 19:28 |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: Let's schedule a separate meeting for that. | 19:28 |
| merlin1991 | X-Fade: when? | 19:28 |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: Suggest something. | 19:29 |
| qgil | Woody14619: fair enough. At least every day passing with the xcurrent status quo is one point for "my" argument :) | 19:29 |
| ivgalvez | DocScrutinizer: A package named something like "Maemo 5 Community Update" pushed to Extras that could install CSSU Stable would be a deal | 19:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | yep | 19:29 |
| merlin1991 | friday 13 UTC? | 19:29 |
| javispedro | we were trying to setup another meeting for the fremantle obs tomorrow at the same hour as today's one | 19:29 |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: Can you do one hour earlier? | 19:30 |
| Woody14619 | ivgalvez: Such a package could easily be made and pushed through the existing extras framework, could it not? | 19:30 |
| SD69 | qgil: I personally am concerned we couldn't construct a parachute in 3-6 months | 19:30 |
| qgil | PS: I'll send an email to the legal team so they know about this concern. Perhaps they will answer but no promise. | 19:30 |
| ivgalvez | Woody14619: Yes it's perfectly doable right now | 19:30 |
| SD69 | qgil: I can be a bit more discrete with the license proposal if you wish | 19:31 |
| merlin1991 | X-Fade: only 30 minutes earlier | 19:31 |
| javispedro | SD69: I think that if the only concern is getting the license clause added, then it might actually be easier during the 6-3 months :) | 19:31 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: even planting the bug in their mind may help move things along, and is appreciated. :) | 19:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | Woody14619: of course | 19:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | javispedro: except, let's consider the scenario where nokia itself is on the brink of destruction and wrapping itself to get bought out | 19:31 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's unlikely that the legal dept would be interested in liberalizing licensing on anything at that point | 19:32 |
| *** ivgalvez has quit IRC | 19:32 | |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: ok, let's do that then. | 19:32 |
| SD69 | itsnotabigtruck: good point, the chances increase if we do this patiently with no deadline | 19:33 |
| DocScrutinizer | I renew my proposal to ignore all legalese and see what Nokia is doing wrt that | 19:33 |
| qgil | itsnotabigtruck: did you se anything like that happening to, say, Novell? Or any of the tech purchases? Are we following the same tech news? | 19:33 |
| merlin1991 | X-Fade: so friday (20.04) 12:30 UTC ? | 19:33 |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: yes | 19:33 |
| * lardman heads off, nice to see you all | 19:34 | |
| SD69 | I think we should wrap it up | 19:34 |
| *** lardman is now known as lardman|gone | 19:34 | |
| Woody14619 | qgil: Working for a company that bought things from Kodak divisions that have been sold off to other groups now, I can tell you freeing up the IP rights on things they just bough for older customers is not something they like to do... | 19:34 |
| qgil | Anyway, allow me not to join this kind of dicussions on doom scenarios - I risk being misinterpreted, misquoted etc | 19:34 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: do we have a followup for obs build talks? X-fade was going to post to the list to setup times? | 19:35 |
| merlin1991 | X-Fade: I guess we'll do it in here? | 19:35 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so i guess the main thing needing settling is combined obs | 19:35 |
| X-Fade | merlin1991: yeah. | 19:35 |
| SD69 | qgil: of course, nothing said so far is premised on doom scenario | 19:35 |
| qgil | What IP rights would you be freeing by adding that clause on hosting ad redistributong binaries? | 19:35 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: The same ones Nokia is protecting by not allowing it now. | 19:36 |
| qgil | ???? | 19:36 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the right to prevent people from hosting and redistributing binaries :p | 19:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | all the noise about freeing binaries is based on the assumption anything bad would happen if we start to distribute them without Nokia's explicit permission | 19:37 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: Clearly, if there were not IP items to protect, the terms of the existung EULA would allow third party distro. | 19:37 |
| qgil | ok, this is a longer discussion, I'm not a lawyer, etc | 19:37 |
| DocScrutinizer | I don't anticipate any bad things to happen | 19:37 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: (At least that's how a third party buying a division will see it, since they lack history.) | 19:37 |
| itsnotabigtruck | combined OBS is a more imminent issue anyway | 19:38 |
| X-Fade | I got to go guys. Talk to you later! | 19:38 |
| javispedro | cya X-Fade and ta! | 19:38 |
| SD69 | People are free to talk, but I am going to end the official meeting | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | cya | 19:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | all | 19:38 |
| itsnotabigtruck | later all | 19:38 |
| Woody14619 | again, I'm not saying it's going to... Just it would be more assuring to know we have at least limited rights to hold/host/use binaries from Nokia to make tools for existing devices. | 19:38 |
| qgil | thanks X-Fade SD69 & co | 19:38 |
| Woody14619 | :) | 19:38 |
| Woody14619 | Thanks to all. | 19:39 |
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| SD69 | thanks everyone | 19:40 |
| qgil | Woody14619: if you get into details to "we have at least limited rights" you will see that it's actually difficult to give away IP | 19:40 |
| itsnotabigtruck | hm? at the end of the day it comes down to adding one clause to the EULA. of course, if the sdk contains encumbered 3rd party software there's complications, and there might be some company-wide ip policy in play, and all sorts of other problems | 19:42 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but actually relaxing the eula is quite simple | 19:42 |
| qgil | I believe the central poijt is more about liabilities: while binaries are hosted in nokia.com Nokia knows exactly what are they and who touched them. Nokia hasn't planned to have those binaries jumping to other servers out of its control, and therefore I understand legal advisers being between reluctant and cautious | 19:42 |
| qgil | especially when there is not a clear business reason | 19:42 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: ageed, but I think the issue here is that there's even less incentive to do something that would cause rights to relax *if* things are announced as spinning down and/or in an emergency situations (like a division sell-off). | 19:43 |
| qgil | itsnotabigtruck: touching an EULA is not simple at all | 19:43 |
| itsnotabigtruck | with umpteen lawyers on staff to write the changed EULA, of course it is | 19:44 |
| qgil | itsnotabigtruck: where do you work, may I ask? | 19:45 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: I think that's understood. Which is why we're not asking for a re-write. Just a simple addendum would be fine. One that opens a very speicific use-case. | 19:45 |
| qgil | Woody14619: where do you work, may I ask? | 19:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm a uni student, who's interned at a few places | 19:45 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so not quite a seasoned professional yet but i have some sense of the complications | 19:45 |
| Woody14619 | I've worked for Kodak, Xerox, and now for company that does aerial photography. | 19:46 |
| qgil | itsnotabigtruck: then give me a chance when I say that it's more complicated than you think - think of me the day you work with legal advisors | 19:46 |
| Woody14619 | (so I've worked for big and small companies alike.) | 19:47 |
| Woody14619 | I hold 3 pattents through Xerox, so I've worked with legal there and know the process it not fast... Which is why waiting for 6-months before is not viable IMHO. | 19:48 |
| qgil | Woody14619: do you think the egal advisors in those companies would find easy to touch a contract already written because a group not forming any legal entity is requesting it based on a scenario they would find totally improbable? | 19:48 |
| javispedro | " Nokia will have the right to terminate the Agreement for any reason at any | 19:48 |
| javispedro | time, in its sole discretion, with a prior written notice of thirty (30) days." meh :) | 19:48 |
| javispedro | probably, changing this eula needs slightly more thought than just adding the clause. | 19:49 |
| qgil | javispedro: do you check the termination conditions of the checkboxes you click when using digital services / software? :) | 19:49 |
| Woody14619 | I never said it would be easy. I'm frankly not even very hopefull it would happen. But I still see not harm in at least asking. I think the best way (one I plan on doing in the near future) would be to do the wording for the adendum and submit that as a starting point... | 19:49 |
| javispedro | well, that is what Doc proposed, that we shall not care. | 19:49 |
| qgil | > not harm in at least asking ---> that's why I will ask, but I'm not holding my breath | 19:50 |
| SD69 | qgil: we will form a legal entity if necessary | 19:50 |
| qgil | and I don't blame | 19:50 |
| qgil | SD69: by the time the Maemo community would find the time and energy to complete this process: how valuable those binaries would be? | 19:51 |
| Woody14619 | And yes, I fully expect the existing clause javispedro just noted to stay in, which could render it all moot. But frankly, having that specific carve-out would cause a much better sense of security in the community, and speed things up a bit on the build side. | 19:52 |
| SD69 | qgil: I could have an independent entity or a sponsored one in 3 months | 19:52 |
| itsnotabigtruck | yeah, it's unlikely that nokia would invoke the termination clause | 19:52 |
| qgil | SD69: with the confidence of representing the Maemo community? | 19:53 |
| qgil | Again, I believe your time and energy can be better invested in more relevant things | 19:53 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: If they're that invaluable, Nokia would be giving them away. They're yet to do so for even rev 1 of the binaries. Would they not be equally worthless becuase of the extra shelf time? Yet Nokia still doesn't give those out. | 19:53 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: I agree in most reguards... But if we have the time and tallent to go in multiple vectors, what's the harm in that? | 19:54 |
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| qgil | Woody14619: keeping status is safer and cheaper. Those legal advisors are busy keeping Nokia legally fit in this crazy industry | 19:55 |
| SD69 | if Nokia says no to what we've asked, I think so - what future does Nokia offer to CSSU developers, for example? | 19:55 |
| itsnotabigtruck | this is totally unrelated...but what if not just extras-fremantle and any potential extras-harmattan repo were highlighted on maemo.org, but all important OBS repos | 19:56 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: and you think that's going to get easier later? | 19:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or afm or whatever it ends up turning into | 19:56 |
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| lbt | would a clear Q&A section on the maemo wiki about the SDK binary redistribution issue help? | 19:56 |
| qgil | Nokia released software under certain conditions + offered a verbal "gentlemen" consent to allow the open source community to do R&D stuff with them as long as they would be used in Nokia devices. Isn't this more than what any other device manufacturer competing in the premier league has ever offered? | 19:56 |
| itsnotabigtruck | sort of... | 19:57 |
| Woody14619 | gqil: Technically, no. Openmoko is the penultimate in that reguard. In major industry, yes. That's apprecaited. But not really the point. | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | you have to think a bit of the complexity of legal stuff in companies. As long as it's implying paperwork, other rules apply than for every day 'policies' | 19:58 |
| itsnotabigtruck | android's more open in more than a few ways, and some android mfgrs are actually supporting rom modding and rooting | 19:58 |
| qgil | Woody14619: well, I think it *is* the point. | 19:58 |
| DocScrutinizer | Nokia can comfortably ignore any breach of the legal mambojambo they need to put in front of their binaries, due to parts of it not exactly owned by Nokia | 19:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | where we are now with maemo and harmattan is far better than many platforms (such as wp7 :p) | 19:59 |
| DocScrutinizer | asking them to change the legal mambojambo might have opposite effects than what you hope for | 19:59 |
| Woody14619 | Again, it's not Nokia I'm worried about, per se. | 19:59 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i mean, a lot of this is about avoiding counterparty risk that isn't there with android | 20:00 |
| Woody14619 | It's what could happen if this division is sold off.. (Which could very easily happen with WP7 taking the lead.) | 20:00 |
| qgil | ok, we're again banging the same heads on the same walls :) | 20:01 |
| Woody14619 | I've been in that situation, *very recently* with Kodak. It's not pretty. | 20:01 |
| lbt | SD69: nb... as someone who's likely going to be paying the bill for the Mer C.OBS servers (and hence, is probably the most individually liable) I'd like some clarity on the distribution issue | 20:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but anyway, it would be nice to have a single package browsing interface that would know about fremantle packages, harmattan packages, CSSU packages, app packages, lib packages, devel packages | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | Woody14619: any company buying Nokia wouldn't invest money/lawyer-mantime to send desist letters to anybody hosting a 3rd party or (C)Nokia binary | 20:01 |
| itsnotabigtruck | aegis low, mid, and high security exposure packages | 20:01 |
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| Woody14619 | qgil: one question I do have that you may know: | 20:01 |
| DocScrutinizer | esp not if that party is no competing company but a "community" | 20:02 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: are payments to Neimen a lump-sum up front, or quarterly, or? (If you're free to divulge that...) | 20:02 |
| SD69 | lbt: my hope is that we end up with a separate entity to protect you | 20:02 |
| DocScrutinizer | Woody14619: keep in mind with comapnies *all* is about money | 20:03 |
| lbt | eventually we will - there's likely to be an interim period.... I'm not worried about it ... more interested in having some clarity | 20:03 |
| qgil | Woody14619: I don't know but I bet it's a monthly / quorterly payment under a longer term contract - why? | 20:04 |
| DocScrutinizer | $random-company can't earn money by sending desist letters to maemo.org | 20:04 |
| Woody14619 | docscrutinizer: Tell that to the group that bought Kodak's sensor division. We're in *just* that legal issue right now on distributing what were redistributable SDK components that are now not so under the new owner. | 20:04 |
| lbt | it may also help avoid the FUD issues | 20:04 |
| Woody14619 | docscrutinizer: and lawyers are ACTIVLY involved... | 20:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: a lot of companies send c&d letters to everyone because they can | 20:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or DMCA takedowns anyway, which are cheap and easy | 20:04 |
| itsnotabigtruck | one of my projects a few years ago was an installer for zune apps, because MS made it stupidly difficult to install them | 20:05 |
| DocScrutinizer | then if ever that happens, we are still free to got the rapidshare approach | 20:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it required bundling in MS .NET DLLs that have to be installed onto the zune | 20:05 |
| qgil | guys, if there are more questions... there s more work waiting here | 20:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | they dmca'd the downloads of everything that had those DLLs inside | 20:05 |
| SD69 | lbt: do you have anyone providing proper, I mean formal, legal advice to you, Mer or afm? | 20:05 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: just a curioslity. After the megaupload issues, it's interesting to know sometimes how things are paid for and how that can affect quick changes. | 20:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | was there any business reason to do that? not at all, but they DMCA everything | 20:05 |
| Jaffa_ | qgil: Can there be transparency after the Nemein contract is finalised about how much work has been contracted for | 20:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i expect companies like nokia to do the same | 20:05 |
| itsnotabigtruck | when you have full time lawyers it's cheap to do that | 20:06 |
| qgil | Jaffa_: I don't see why not, but of course that would need an ok from Nemein's side as well | 20:06 |
| Jaffa_ | qgil: ...and if it is a general "do MeeGo/Maemo stuff", "do x for maemo.org" ... | 20:06 |
| Jaffa_ | qgil: At least to the council. I remember when the *masters ramped down I _think_ it was effectively one full time employee | 20:06 |
| qgil | Jaffa_: again, Nokia is not dictating Nemein what to do, except "keep the servers up & secure" | 20:06 |
| Jaffa_ | qgil: Indeed, but Nemein can then say to the community that takes X %ge of BAU, leaving Y for proejct work | 20:07 |
| Jaffa_ | qgil: I think it'd be useful to set realistic expectations on when/how much X-Fade can do | 20:07 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: I think the idea is to try to get a guage of what LOE we can expect. :) | 20:07 |
| qgil | Jaffa_: the only directions I'm aware of are the move to a ne server infra controlled by Nemein (now they are hosted in another, larger and more expensive Nokia provider, which is suboptimal) | 20:08 |
| Jaffa_ | This'll be useful when the public discussion & prioritisation happens | 20:08 |
| qgil | LOE? | 20:08 |
| DocScrutinizer | just saying for now Nokia is very unlikely to invest money/time into legalese for closed binaries, as quim already mentioned | 20:08 |
| lbt | SD69: no, I'll be talking to eV (KDE) about it | 20:08 |
| Jaffa_ | qgil: Yeah, so I'm wondering how much Nokia is paying for above the level which is needed to keep the servers *running* and so how much time Nokia is paying for to, say, move Autobuilder to OBS | 20:08 |
| Woody14619 | sd69: did you see my pms? | 20:08 |
| * lbt is a bit afk | 20:09 | |
| DocScrutinizer | and by making too much noise you might attract notice of groups you better had kept away from the whole topic | 20:09 |
| qgil | Jaffa_: as said, I have no problems disclosing e.g. how much hours per month Nemein estimates that are available beyond the regular maintenance tasks | 20:10 |
| qgil | how _many_ hours, I mean (the more English I learn these days the more I forget what I got right in secondary school) | 20:10 |
| DocScrutinizer | that's probably more to the point than Jaffa_ 's original question | 20:10 |
| Woody14619 | qgil: Level Of Effort... what you just said. time beyond maintainance. | 20:10 |
| SD69 | lbt: if it's acceptable, I suggest we talk offline about the legal liabilities. it's actually bad (in a legal sense) to discuss it online. look at the debian patent policy, which recommends this | 20:11 |
| Woody14619 | gqil: LOL. I've found school-taught language is never the same as real-world use. :) | 20:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | especially because this is a logged channel...why do you guys insist on publishing anything and everything | 20:11 |
| itsnotabigtruck | it's harmful | 20:11 |
| qgil | the only reason to keep information private in this Nokia-Nemein contract is the common sense point of not disclosing amounts. I don't think there is anything secret in what Nemein actually do with that time | 20:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | irc is supposed to be like two ships meeting in the night :) | 20:12 |
| itsnotabigtruck | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ | 20:12 |
| qgil | SD69: ha! and you say so after asking me all these question in a public IRC meeting? :) | 20:13 |
| Woody14619 | IRC has been many things to many people... :) | 20:13 |
| qgil | ok, anything else? | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer | yeah! thanks Quim! | 20:14 |
| Woody14619 | nothing that won't wait for later. :) | 20:14 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but seriously though, if the log bots were expunged from #meego, #maemo, #n9, #harmattan, #maemo-meeting, and anything else, the world would be a better place | 20:14 |
| Woody14619 | Thanks for the info and listening! | 20:14 |
| SD69 | qgil: I never advised how the proposal could help Nokia's liabilities. I would also do that offline with you. | 20:14 |
| qgil | ok, thank you all and see you arounds | 20:14 |
| Woody14619 | And volunteering to take on this "headache"... That's appreciated more than I think you know. :) | 20:14 |
| qgil | arounD | 20:14 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: that's BS | 20:15 |
| qgil | Woody14619: a "pleasure" ;) | 20:15 |
| DocScrutinizer | there are always logs | 20:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | later! | 20:15 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: logs which are seen only by the people who were there | 20:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm not talking about logging in general | 20:15 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'm talking about putting all the logs up on the net to be indexed | 20:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's a world of difference there | 20:16 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: it's up to your imagination how many of those publish their logs, and how many aren't even users but bots | 20:16 |
| itsnotabigtruck | ...on #harmattan there's 3 different bots that publish logs and they're obviously officially approved because they're voiced | 20:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you're redirecting | 20:17 |
| DocScrutinizer | asuming whatever degree of privacy in a public channel is bizarre | 20:17 |
| itsnotabigtruck | there's public and there's PUBLIC | 20:18 |
| Woody14619 | The more that's logged, the harder stuff is to find. :) And yes, assuming anything done on-line isn't indexed is kind of silly. | 20:18 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and channel log publishing is not at all a normal thing outside of a small number of channels | 20:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the freenode website itself discourages it because a lot of people don't like it | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | esp on a council meeting[!!} | 20:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | for perfectly valid reasons | 20:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i'l grant that logging the meeting makes sense | 20:19 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so ignore that...the issue applies to all the other channels though | 20:19 |
| DocScrutinizer | I'm leaving this topic to your gentle evaluation now, I'm busy with other things | 20:20 |
| Woody14619 | If you want something not logged, use a private message... not that hard. ;) (Also, not that private... knowing the underlying structure of IRC.) | 20:20 |
| itsnotabigtruck | Woody14619: again, i'm not talking about *logging*, i'm talking about *log publishing* | 20:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | obviously a public irc channel is public, that is totally unrelated to what i'm talking about | 20:21 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and if the goal is to send a message to a channel, using a PM doesn't accomplish much | 20:22 |
| Woody14619 | Yes,, well.. if you're so against it, setup your own IRC server and don't publish logs. Then run for council and encourage private discussons to happen there. :) | 20:22 |
| Woody14619 | It's all opensource. :) | 20:22 |
| itsnotabigtruck | or how about fixing the problem at the source | 20:23 |
| Woody14619 | anyway... I need to get back to work. Way over-exteneded my lunch break as it is. :) | 20:23 |
| Woody14619 | I just told you how to do that: Setup another IRC server and get people to move there. | 20:23 |
| DocScrutinizer | itsnotabigtruck: afaik all logbots support a form of log block. For povbot and many others it's a leading space | 20:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | you're suggesting that precisely because you know very well it's not practical | 20:23 |
| Woody14619 | That is the source. :) | 20:23 |
| itsnotabigtruck | DocScrutinizer: povbot supports that, the others don't | 20:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | no one on the channel knows about that anyway | 20:24 |
| DocScrutinizer | nobody cares | 20:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | actually infobot knows about that, povbot doesn't, i think | 20:24 |
| Woody14619 | so, fix povbot. (again, it's all open...) | 20:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the end result is that leading space doesn't do anything on #harmattan | 20:24 |
| itsnotabigtruck | again, not a solution, stop pretending it is one | 20:25 |
| javispedro | logs are now a problem? | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer | solution to which problem? | 20:25 |
| itsnotabigtruck | the problem of having messages that ought to be ephemeral being broadcasted for eternity | 20:26 |
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| Woody14619 | This is seriously cutting into my free time to start flame wars on TMO. XD Anyway.. happy theorizing. Off to make things work. | 20:26 |
| DocScrutinizer | I tend to agree logbots are maybe an issue on channels <20 users. Where you know each user and his dog "by name" | 20:27 |
| DocScrutinizer | not so on channels >200 users | 20:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer | odds are 5% of them are hidden bots anyway | 20:27 |
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| itsnotabigtruck | http://blog.fealdia.org/2008/09/17/public-irc-logging/ see "Common arguments for logging | 20:27 |
| itsnotabigtruck | " | 20:27 |
| * RST38h yawns | 20:27 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | and i don't really care about logs that much unless they're discoverable | 20:28 |
| * DocScrutinizer re-yawns | 20:28 | |
| itsnotabigtruck | if they're discoverable they're googleable | 20:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and that means they're easy to find | 20:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | again, i don't expect irc to be secret, it's not | 20:28 |
| SpeedEvil | There is the issue that you accidentally post 'foo' | 20:28 |
| SpeedEvil | And then someone x years later is able to google foo + yournick | 20:28 |
| itsnotabigtruck | but it's easy to tell if you have log bots, and it's easy to remove them | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | ooh, discoverable = googleable = findable (synonym for "discoverable") | 20:29 |
| SpeedEvil | and get you into trouble | 20:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | and afaik DocScrutinizer: you put one of them in there yourself | 20:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | so it's kind of ridiculous to claim you don't know which ones they are | 20:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | because it's your own policy to do the logging | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer | now you're starting to troll, or loose your mind | 20:29 |
| itsnotabigtruck | i suppose you already loosed your mind :p | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer | dang, that me | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | lose* | 20:34 |
| DocScrutinizer | anyway, not going to continue this a) OT and b) nonsensical argument here | 20:35 |
| DocScrutinizer | just one last word: no, I dunno what'S a bot and what's a real human user. But one thing's for sure: YOU don't either | 20:36 |
| DocScrutinizer | you seem to assume all bots got tagges +v by me, and thus al that doesn't have +v isn't a bot | 20:38 |
| DocScrutinizer | which is so obviously ridiculous | 20:39 |
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