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| misterc | good day everyone | 14:26 |
|---|---|---|
| SD69 | hello | 14:28 |
| misterc | i can't seem to find an agenda for this Concil meeting; is there one? | 14:36 |
| SD69 | there is a partial one - I'll post it on t.m.o. | 14:36 |
| misterc | thank you! | 14:37 |
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| SD69 | partial agenda is at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1149464#post1149464 | 14:56 |
| SD69 | misterg__: do you have a particular interest? | 14:56 |
| misterc__ | no; general interest in N900 / Maemo and wondering about its future | 14:57 |
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| SD69 | misterc__: do you have a particular interest? | 14:58 |
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| SD69 | hello matti | 15:00 |
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| SD69 | hi Niels | 15:00 |
| X-Fade | hi | 15:01 |
| SD69 | Jeremiah is not here yet - but let's start anyway | 15:02 |
| SD69 | partial agenda is at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1149464#post1149464 | 15:02 |
| mairas | hi there | 15:03 |
| merlin1991 | I'd like to add a 6th point to agenda, co-maintainership for the cssu-repo | 15:03 |
| SD69 | merlin1991: OK, let's hope we can add that at the end | 15:04 |
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| SD69 | matti: do you have a heads-up about the repo key issue? | 15:05 |
| SD69 | https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12522 | 15:05 |
| povbot | Bug 12522: Problem with keys of Nokia | 15:05 |
| SD69 | momcilo: hi | 15:06 |
| mairas | SD69, Stefano is aware of the issue but he's travelling so it'll take a couple of days for him to fix it. | 15:06 |
| momcilo | hi, I will try to catch up | 15:06 |
| SD69 | Are there any plans in place wrt N900 Ovi generally | 15:07 |
| SD69 | ? | 15:08 |
| mairas | Not any I know of. N900 is an End-of-Life product, so everything is as-is | 15:08 |
| SD69 | someday there will be no trace of N900 | 15:09 |
| SD69 | but as of today do we have an estimate of what day that will be? | 15:09 |
| mairas | I have no information on that. | 15:10 |
| SD69 | OK | 15:10 |
| mairas | Ovi Store is a separate entity. | 15:10 |
| X-Fade | Ovi is Nokia's commercial offering. When a product goes eol it makes sense to keep it around for X amount of time after that, who knows :) | 15:11 |
| SD69 | OK | 15:11 |
| misterc__ | there is the OVI application as a default application on any NOKIA device; doesn't it make (indeed) sense the let the applications stand as long as there (seem to be) users ( # of downloads every month?) | 15:12 |
| SD69 | what is contact info for Stefano on repo key? | 15:12 |
| mairas | SD69, I can relay the messages. | 15:13 |
| mairas | and he has the bug link, so he can reply there if he chooses. | 15:14 |
| SD69 | thank you - without a reply, we don't know status | 15:15 |
| SD69 | with no info, there is speculation that Nokia is not interested in fixing it | 15:15 |
| mairas | SD69, we can update the bug when it's fixed. but trust me, it's being worked on. | 15:16 |
| SD69 | that's good | 15:16 |
| SD69 | 2nd topic: support for maemo infrastructure | 15:16 |
| X-Fade | For point A. I talked to merlin about what needs to be done. Basically the package and all it's entries are seriously messed up. | 15:18 |
| X-Fade | What needs to be done is remove it from the repository completely, remove all entries from database manually. | 15:18 |
| X-Fade | And then import the lastest version into the repository again. | 15:18 |
| SD69 | who should do that - merlin? | 15:19 |
| X-Fade | No, I will do that. We need to pick a date when we do this though. | 15:19 |
| X-Fade | As the package and everything related will be completely gone for better part of a day. | 15:20 |
| momcilo | X-Fade, you meen the latest stable that got to users, or the latest latest? | 15:20 |
| X-Fade | It takes a while to regenerate the repos. | 15:20 |
| X-Fade | No, this is all server side. | 15:20 |
| X-Fade | And then add some caching network delays on top of that. | 15:21 |
| X-Fade | But then again, the package is quite broken as is. | 15:21 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: the package maintainer feels otherwise | 15:22 |
| X-Fade | SD69: Not the package, I mean the state of the dependencies etc. | 15:22 |
| X-Fade | We need to bring those back to a consistent state. | 15:22 |
| SD69 | OK, but the problem is how long this is taking to fix | 15:24 |
| X-Fade | Realistically this will take me a day, just to fix things surrounding this package. | 15:24 |
| SD69 | I don't know your schedule | 15:24 |
| X-Fade | So it is not easy to schedule such an effort. | 15:25 |
| X-Fade | Currently looking at picking the 23rd or 24th of this month, to take a stab at it. | 15:26 |
| SD69 | I think that will be good, if the date slips, please let us know | 15:26 |
| X-Fade | Btw, I have suggested that he could fix the issue himself by renaming the package. | 15:27 |
| SD69 | I know | 15:27 |
| X-Fade | So I will put the effort in this time to fix it, but let's hope it doesn't get messed up again. | 15:27 |
| SD69 | I really hope ;-) | 15:28 |
| SD69 | For point B. let me preface by saying there is the impression that the community suffers because there is currently not enough bodies maintaining maemo.org | 15:30 |
| X-Fade | What do you think needs more maintaining? | 15:30 |
| SD69 | package promotion | 15:31 |
| X-Fade | Why don't you just add more supertesters to the group in garage then? | 15:31 |
| SD69 | and this is because package maintainers go awol, etc. | 15:31 |
| SD69 | how do we do that - I mean give you names or what? | 15:32 |
| X-Fade | Just add them to the group yourself? | 15:32 |
| X-Fade | I thought you were admin in that project? | 15:33 |
| X-Fade | Or did achipa manage this? | 15:33 |
| SD69 | it was not me | 15:33 |
| X-Fade | https://garage.maemo.org/projects/qatesters/ | 15:33 |
| SD69 | I admit the handoff of community tasks has not always been smooth | 15:33 |
| X-Fade | Changing the people there will give them rights. 3 votes from supertesters cause promotion. | 15:34 |
| SD69 | and do you a suggestion for applying new maintainer when the previous one goes awol? | 15:35 |
| X-Fade | I'd say write to -developers, ask for comments and if there is no response or no objections, I can change it? | 15:35 |
| X-Fade | At least we need to do this in public. | 15:36 |
| SD69 | of course in public | 15:36 |
| SD69 | but you seem to have busy schedule... | 15:37 |
| X-Fade | I mean to give the original maintainer some place to respond. | 15:37 |
| X-Fade | I just need a clear list every X amount of time. | 15:37 |
| X-Fade | I can't go through random posts on forums etc. | 15:38 |
| X-Fade | So if you assign someone to keep a list etc, I'm fine with that. | 15:38 |
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| misterc__ | X-Fade, what is X amount of time & how much time would you then have? | 15:39 |
| X-Fade | I'd say process changes once a month or so? | 15:39 |
| SD69 | I have busy schedule too... | 15:39 |
| mairas | sorry, proxy disconnects randomly :-( | 15:39 |
| X-Fade | Let's try to see if you can organize that and eval afterwards? | 15:39 |
| SD69 | I'd rather give someone else some admin rights than go through a list - it could become a bottleneck in practice | 15:40 |
| X-Fade | Doing adhoc changes to the repo is also not what you want. | 15:41 |
| misterc__ | once a month seems okay. how much time can you muster for that? as much as needed? | 15:41 |
| X-Fade | You need people to step up and say: "Hey, that doesn't look right" | 15:41 |
| X-Fade | Depending on the amount of packages, it is not that much work. | 15:42 |
| X-Fade | People just need to apply to be maintainer themselves. | 15:42 |
| X-Fade | And we then need a list of packages where we need to approve the change. | 15:42 |
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| misterc__ | and after that, those ppl can do all needed tasks themselves (promoting packages aso.)? | 15:43 |
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| X-Fade | Yes. | 15:43 |
| X-Fade | Just like you add an extra maintainer to your own package. | 15:44 |
| SD69 | I think we can try it | 15:44 |
| SD69 | Agenda 3: clarification of "official" vs. "unofficial" support in bugzilla and other parts | 15:45 |
| SD69 | so Andre took the lead on bugzilla | 15:46 |
| SD69 | are there other parts, where we need to distinguish between official and unofficial (community)? | 15:46 |
| X-Fade | Can you elaborate on that? | 15:47 |
| andre__ | SD69: just to clarify, I'm doing maemo.org Bugzilla stuff now in my freetime, So I can't look into bigger issues such as porting to newer versions which might become a problem as 3.4 will be unmaintained soon. :-/ | 15:47 |
| mairas | I don't quite understand the question. As for N900, it's eol, so pretty much everything is unofficial. | 15:47 |
| SD69 | it's not apparent to someone visiting maemo.org for the first time | 15:48 |
| X-Fade | SD69: There aren't that many new people who just bought a N900 either. | 15:49 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: and (stray) N9 buyers too | 15:49 |
| SD69 | andre: 3.4? | 15:50 |
| andre__ | Bugzilla version | 15:50 |
| momcilo | Is it feasible to move to 4.x? | 15:51 |
| andre__ | I wonder how to interpret "feasible" :) | 15:52 |
| misterc__ | do you need admin rights (root?) on the server? | 15:52 |
| andre__ | what I do know is that Bugzilla version 3.4 soon will reach EOL upstream and won't get any security updates anymore | 15:53 |
| andre__ | I won't try to update it, too big of a task | 15:53 |
| momcilo | Roughly, how much effort does it require to upgrade bugzilla at maemo.org? | 15:53 |
| andre__ | (plus I wonder if Ferenc is still around that I could ping to apply security updates - I've somehow lost overview who's still around in maemo.org) | 15:53 |
| momcilo | andre__, nobody asked you to do it, I just wanted to know about the size of the problem | 15:54 |
| X-Fade | yeah, ferenc is around. | 15:54 |
| andre__ | ah good | 15:54 |
| andre__ | momcilo, depends on the structural changes between these versions. last upgrade from 2.x to 3.4 was mostly done by amigadave, guenther and ferenc so I can't really guestimate | 15:54 |
| momcilo | andre__, :) thanks | 15:54 |
| andre__ | np :) | 15:55 |
| misterc__ | there is a 3.6 version; could that minimize the effort & gain us some time? | 15:55 |
| X-Fade | We can look at that, see how much work it is to do the upgrade, change the custom things we have. | 15:57 |
| andre__ | we can probably even drop quite some custom things, e.g. using RESOLVED MOVED for Brainstorm, as that's dead | 15:57 |
| andre__ | I should probably ask the other GNOME Bugzilla admins, as there are also plans to upgrade from 3.4 to 4.2 | 15:58 |
| X-Fade | Ok, well, let's try to find out how much work it is and then decide? | 15:58 |
| andre__ | +1 | 15:59 |
| SD69 | let's move on so we can finish more or less on time | 15:59 |
| X-Fade | Well it has been an hour already, so that will be hard. | 15:59 |
| SD69 | Agenda 4: harmattan | 15:59 |
| SD69 | marias: you had proposal on this | 16:00 |
| SD69 | and then I want to commet on appsformeego | 16:01 |
| SD69 | *comment | 16:01 |
| SD69 | mairas: ? | 16:01 |
| mairas | SD69, we might start to promote maemo.org as the backup for meego.com as the latter will be going away pretty soon. | 16:01 |
| mairas | but that's pretty much it. harmattan quite naturally falls into the scope of maemo.org. | 16:02 |
| misterc__ | is that such a good idea if we don't know how long Maemo.org will (still) be available? | 16:02 |
| X-Fade | meego.com will be far less. | 16:02 |
| mairas | misterc__, at least maemo.org is going to stay around longer. | 16:03 |
| X-Fade | Realistically we need to move everything away from meego.com this quarter. | 16:03 |
| SD69 | well, I don't know that meego's problems are necessarily maemo's problems | 16:03 |
| mairas | and with that move (and with apps.formeego.org using maemo.org facilities in the future) I don't see maemo.org being shut down any time soon. but that's not a promise. | 16:03 |
| SD69 | the only overlap I see is harmattan | 16:04 |
| X-Fade | Well, we only intend to move that part :) | 16:04 |
| SD69 | well, at this point I will say you should ask Maemo council | 16:05 |
| mairas | SD69, it's not in the council's mandate to limit the scope of maemo.org. | 16:05 |
| X-Fade | What are the objections? | 16:05 |
| X-Fade | Any issues you see? | 16:05 |
| X-Fade | It is all the same people running the same things :) | 16:05 |
| X-Fade | I manage servers on both ends, reggie mananges both forums. | 16:06 |
| X-Fade | Harmattan has maemo all over. | 16:06 |
| SD69 | the most important resources are the devs | 16:07 |
| SD69 | and yes it is council's mandate to represent the community | 16:07 |
| X-Fade | Devs for what? | 16:07 |
| misterc__ | don't the devs need servers & all? | 16:08 |
| SD69 | not mairas, but Nokia promised to hand over control to the community | 16:08 |
| mairas | huh? | 16:09 |
| misterc__ | define "control" pls | 16:09 |
| mairas | define "promised" and "hand over", pls | 16:09 |
| SD69 | bringing in harmattan is a big change | 16:09 |
| X-Fade | No it is not? | 16:10 |
| mairas | no, it's not. | 16:10 |
| X-Fade | Everything harmattan from nokia's side already lives on the same servers as maemo.org? | 16:10 |
| mairas | N9 is the next device in the same continuum. | 16:10 |
| X-Fade | Just because marketing put a meego sticker on top if it, doesn't mean it is very different :) | 16:11 |
| X-Fade | And as said before, funding is directed towards harmattan. If you embrace, you can benefit from it. | 16:11 |
| misterc__ | +1 | 16:12 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: I may embrace it, but I am reluctant to let it be imposed on a community that I represent that may not want it | 16:12 |
| X-Fade | SD69: The community should really be the same. | 16:12 |
| X-Fade | SD69: There is no difference? | 16:13 |
| misterc__ | i don't copy that, but i think that if it improves our futur perspective, it is worth considering & should gain acceptance | 16:13 |
| mairas | SD69, I haven't seen any signs that the community wouldn't accept it. the most active discussions on t.m.o are already about the N9... | 16:14 |
| X-Fade | If you look at accounts then 80% or so overlaps. | 16:14 |
| X-Fade | If you look at apps for n900 and n9, you see the exact same developers. | 16:14 |
| SD69 | mairas: I will go back to the councils of Jaffa and Samoff - I believe they said Nokia handed over to the community | 16:14 |
| SD69 | mairas: please talk to council as representing community and we will talk to you as representing Nokia | 16:16 |
| misterc__ | in public? | 16:16 |
| mairas | and anyway. maemo.org is inclusive in nature, and while the council might act as a representation organ (although the current council being self-elected, you might question even that), that does not give the council power to exclude people/projects/hardware from maemo.org as a whole. | 16:17 |
| X-Fade | Them vs us is never a productive thing, really. | 16:17 |
| mairas | X-Fade, true. | 16:18 |
| momcilo | SD69, X-Fade, do we have any feedback from people working on harmattan? | 16:18 |
| X-Fade | Especially when they are in fact, the same. | 16:18 |
| SD69 | we're not excluding, I am noting that this was apparently decided without any discussion with council | 16:18 |
| misterc__ | i may have missed something here, but wasn't there a discussion on TMO lately that there was only one member of the council (SD69 ?) is still actively around? | 16:19 |
| X-Fade | SD69: Apparently you see this as a burdon or a bad thing? | 16:19 |
| SD69 | momcilo is here | 16:19 |
| misterc__ | o, sorry, wasn't aware of his membershipt :-o | 16:19 |
| misterc__ | so, the council is here in toto? | 16:19 |
| momcilo | misterc__, it is true I was awol for the last two months | 16:20 |
| SD69 | I see this as plans being made for maemo.org w/o involving council | 16:20 |
| X-Fade | Can we wrap this up in 10 minutes or so? I really need to go. | 16:20 |
| momcilo | misterc__, SD69, I don't see we can resolve this now, instread I suggest a meeting next week? | 16:21 |
| misterc__ | seems reasonable | 16:21 |
| SD69 | momcilo: I think so. | 16:21 |
| X-Fade | I'm travelling next week, but the week after that should be ok. | 16:22 |
| X-Fade | SD69: Can you come up with a pros and cons list of some sort? | 16:22 |
| X-Fade | SD69: Try to get clear why you think this one community isn't one? | 16:22 |
| SD69 | X-Fade: it's a proposal not by council, can you tell us what you want to do? | 16:23 |
| mairas | yes, I would like that as well. | 16:23 |
| SD69 | We may agree with you, but I think you should approach us directly | 16:24 |
| X-Fade | SD69: From a server standpoint, we're just moving some services over? | 16:24 |
| X-Fade | SD69: Servers which Nokia pays for. | 16:24 |
| SD69 | yes, and we will consider the financial benefits as well | 16:25 |
| mairas | and from the authentication standpoint, the OBS servers will be changed to use maemo.org as the authentication backend instead of meego.com | 16:25 |
| X-Fade | Note that we did not just change the website or something like that? | 16:25 |
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| SD69 | I promise you I will consider it, and will put it to the community for public discussion | 16:27 |
| mairas | haven't seen much traffic on maemo-community lately. I thought that was the canonical place for discussion... | 16:27 |
| misterc__ | TMO? | 16:28 |
| mairas | no, the mailing list. | 16:28 |
| misterc__ | o, sorry: need to check that out, i guess | 16:28 |
| SD69 | this was never suggested anywhere on maemo.org | 16:29 |
| SD69 | although, for the record, mairas did make a suggestion of sorts in an email to council | 16:29 |
| SD69 | I thought we would discuss it again in due course, but then we saw it described elsewhere | 16:30 |
| SD69 | anyway, sorry to end on a bad note | 16:31 |
| SD69 | but I hope we will return to the discussion | 16:31 |
| momcilo | 5? | 16:31 |
| momcilo | 6? | 16:31 |
| SD69 | community mailing list is fine | 16:31 |
| SD69 | we have to postpone 5 and 6 I think | 16:32 |
| SD69 | regards everyone | 16:33 |
| momcilo | fine by me. | 16:33 |
| momcilo | thanks | 16:33 |
| misterc__ | thank you ! | 16:33 |
| X-Fade | Will you mail for a new date? | 16:34 |
| momcilo | Is it possible to determine date/time of the next meeting during this week? | 16:34 |
| momcilo | I've got to go now, I hope we will determine the date/time for the next meeting before X-fade's trip | 16:37 |
| X-Fade | I'll be reading email, no problem. | 16:37 |
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