IRC log of #maemo-meeting for Thursday, 2010-09-16

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Andy80hi all13:50
Andy80am I too late?13:50
bergietoo early :-)13:51
bergiestill 1h to go13:51
Andy80thanks :)13:56
Andy80(I'll never understand these time-zones :D )13:56
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achipaAndy80: wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for DST funk14:47
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achipaAndy80: daylight saving time... summer time...14:58
dnearyHi all14:59
rsuplidogood morning14:59
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Jaffarsuplido: Cool, didn't think you' be able to make it15:00
* Jaffa has a broken 'D' key. Apologies.15:00
JaffaHow're we doing with people?15:02
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JaffaWe've got tekojo, dneary, X-Fade, ferenc, rsuplido, andre__, bergie from the paid side; and achipa and myself from the council15:03
dnearyAnyone from off the council?15:03
JaffaGeneralAntilles too, sorry.15:03
Andy80(and a silent listener/reader that will try to understand how this meeting works :) )15:03
* JimiDini = +1 from "paid side"15:03
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alteregoGood afternoon folks15:04
JaffaHas anyone got any questions oon the agena?
Jaffa(apart from the broken <ol> formatting on :-()15:04
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JaffaBah, I can't set the topic. Ah well, agenda is
dnearyCan someone op Jaffa plz?15:06
JaffaFirst topic is tekojo taking us through what resources are currently being paid for for; and how that's likely to change in future.15:07
Jaffa### 1) # Overview of current paid resources for, and current thoughts on roadmap/future (Tero Kojo)15:07
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tekojoSo currently the situation is andre__ and X-Fade are pretty much full time, with tasks in MeeGo too15:08
tekojothen dneary is 50h/month15:08
tekojoand then Nemein has a separate maintenance contract, that accounts to something like 1 person15:09
tekojobut we can talk more on the Nemein part at the end of this meet15:09
tekojothen there is rsuplido who is basically looking after talk (I would not put a specific hour number on that work)15:10
* Jaffa nods - obvious question is how Nemein decide who (and, relatedly, what) gets done by that one person.15:10
rsuplido*and forum.meego.com15:10
tekojoand as most people have noticed Stskeeps is pretty much meego now15:11
Jaffatekojo: Does this therefore cover all aspects of apart from the hardware; e.g. OS maintenance as well as apps?15:11
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tekojoJaffa: pretty much15:12
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tekojothe hardware is from an ISP and they handle it up to Apache, more or less15:12
tekojoI do not see any dramatic changes for 2011, but that having been said visibility is not the best right now15:12
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lcukeep, missed start, reading scrollback15:13
Jaffatekojo: and so JimiDini, ferenc et al come under Nemein; through bergie.15:13
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tekojoJaffa: correct15:14
alteregoI was under the impression Nokia would continue funding until the community completely stagnates?15:14
tekojoalterego: yes, will still be there for the community15:14
bergieJaffa: as do X-Fade and rsuplido, though they work pretty much independently15:14
lcukthe community who managed to increase downloads from 20 to 30 million in the last month alone!15:14
tekojobut the budgeting system in Nokia is such that I can not make any promises that involve money until the budget is frozen15:15
tekojoand that happens every six months15:15
Jaffabergie: OK.15:15
Jaffatekojo: At which points in the year, OOI?15:15
rsuplidofyi, tmo is still going strong:
tekojoJaffa: usually way too late :) like 1-2 months before year end and mid-year15:15
bergieJaffa: contracts are for each year half, so Q1&Q2, then Q3&Q415:16
lcukrsuplido, awesome!15:16
Jaffatekojo: Cool.15:16
tekojoI mean, I can't make promises with numbers, but we will make sure stays there for the community15:17
JaffaThat's a good overview of where we are now. Does anybody want to say anything more before we move on to individual/group's progress with the brainstorm items?15:17
bergiersuplido: I have the same feel about as well, number of apps and downloads is growing still quite nicely, and we have some 46k users15:17
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alteregoLooks positive, though I'd be more interested to see those graphs at the end of the year.15:17
achipaI reckon there won't be a significant user falloff until the next year15:17
X-FadeI expect the same.15:18
alteregoI think that considering the next iteration, it's still more Maemo than MeeGo, and I think they'll come here.15:18
achipaas most people have the N900 for less than a year, and also no MeeGo phones available yet15:18
bergieachipa: and even then may provide a more "agile" home for some MeeGo community things as well ;-)15:18
dnearyI expect significant fall-off will start with app uploads, and spread from there to forums, lists & IRC.15:18
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achipaJaffa: alterego: Nokia markets that as MeeGo, and Quim said he does not want those folks on maemo.org15:19
lcukfor reference with ovi, I saw reported numbers on twitter of ~60million/month15:19
andre__"okay, the topic for this meeting was what again?" ;-)15:19
alteregoOh, okay.15:19
Jaffaachipa: Indeed; that's slightlyly off-topic for this meeting, but certainly the purpose of for Harmattan people is something which is... unclear.15:19
alteregoYes, lets talk about this some other time :)15:19
achipaaye, sorry for the digression15:20
X-FadeJaffa: Not much we can do about that here and now though.15:20
JaffaX-Fade: Exactly.15:20
Jaffa#### /115:20
Jaffa### 2) Overview of Brainstorm roadmap progress & current status15:20
JaffaWhat I'd like to see is a summary of what each area's BAU status is, and how things which were discussed and planned out of the Brainstorm have been followed.15:21
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JaffaI'll say I'm a little disappointed with the communication following the Brainstorm. People agreed a set of six month targets in conjunction with the community and then rarely responded to emails on the topics.15:22
andre__(at least for Bugzilla it's hard to set a 6months target)15:22
JaffaHowever, I suspect the current status/BAU will extrapolate on that, so we can tackle it individually.15:22
JaffaSo, for each area, if there's BAU; can the person responsible describe what's going on there, how much time they've got for projects vs. BAU and so how the Brainstorm items are progressing?15:23
bergieJaffa: as said earlier in the emails, having to wait for contracts has hurt our part of the activities until now15:23
Jaffaandre__: We can comment on specific items when we get there.15:23
Jaffa## 2.1) SSO (tekojo/X-Fade)15:24
JaffaThis was to get single (rather than shared) sign-on across Bugzilla, Garage, wiki, talk, Midgard)15:24
X-FadeNo progress from my side.15:24
X-FadeI didn't have any time to even think about it unfortunately.15:25
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bergieJimiDini, want to comment? danielwilms doesn't appear to be here15:25
tekojodaniel was looking at it, but he has been really occupied elsewhere15:25
JimiDiniJaffa: no real progress. summer was really slow for various reasons15:26
JimiDini(including contracts, vacations, …)15:26
lcukis there any potential for crossover in the lessons SSO in meego15:27
lcukie to make it simpler on maemo implementation15:27
dnearylcuk, My understanding is that both are going to use similar infrastructure15:27
Jaffabergie: I'm not sure why contract sorting distracted from technical work - or was contract sorting done under the 1 person budget previously discusse?15:27
lcukgood :)15:27
dnearyCAS + custom modules for various services15:27
tekojolcuk: we are talking in meego of making it simpler, but then it won't be full out SSO15:27
bergielcuk: the difference is that Maemo started from a heterogeneous situation, and consolidating from that is harder than doing SSO right from the beginning15:27
dnearyWe should be able to share the one for MediaWiki at least (if we can get around the username capitalisation hack)15:28
Jaffadneary: And I'm amazed, and disheartened that over a year after the project was started *no* visible progress has been made.15:28
lbtFYI meego seems to be looking at drupal based SSO15:28
JimiDiniSSO is not difficult. converting to SSO is difficult15:28
lcukok, just wondering since technical implementation details and lessons learnt are valuable15:28
lbtaccording to the arch doc15:28
bergieJaffa: because we didn't have contracts we couldn't invest in any bigger work but obviously focused on keeping things running15:28
rsuplidoThe way I see it, SSO in MeeGo is working better15:28
Jaffa*Everyone* agreed that SSO was the #1 priority.15:28
Jaffarsuplido: Well, it's still shared-sign on AFAICT15:29
dnearyrsuplido, They have some of the same bugs we've had in the past15:29
Jaffabergie: So the existing contract stopped?15:29
achipaJimiDini: rsuplido: well, it still sucks when I get into stat where I see log in/log out, bugzilla is not SSO, and OpenID is plain dead15:29
dnearyJaffa, Every 6 months15:29
achipas/stat/a state/15:29
bergieJaffa: contracts are always only 6 month long, old one ended and because of the handover details getting the new one got delayed quite a bit15:30
rsuplidobut the thing is, every new module that is added to MeeGo is connected to Drupal15:30
rsuplidothat makes ist somewhat easier15:30
Jaffadneary: The message seems to be that "ah, our contracts were being renegotiated (because of the handover)". But this has only been communicated over the past 2 days.15:30
bergieWe already have most of the CAS stuff (SSO "clients" for various services) done15:30
rsuplidothere was a common starting point15:30
dnearyJaffa, I'm not aware of any contract stuff15:31
bergiebut what is completely missing is a tool for consolidating the accounts people already have across the different services15:31
JaffaSimilarly, when the brainstorm happened and SSO was committed to, what has come in as a higher priority.15:31
Jaffabergie: Yes, that was always going to be the hardest part!15:31
JaffaIf this highest priority item hasn't been worked on, I'm struggling to imagine what lower priority items could have been.15:31
X-FadeJaffa: Basically Finland shuts down for the holidays. Keeping things running on your own eats a lot of time.15:31
bergieJaffa: agreed that we could've communicated about this better, but generally I don't like talking about contracts before they actually exist ;-)15:32
tekojook, but about the SSO, as I see it the biggest thing open is merging the different user databases, who can take on that kind of work?15:33
bergieat least now that we know how the new post-handover contracts work things should be smoother15:33
JaffaRight. So, who is going to take an action, with a due date, of coming up with an SSO implementation plan - with milestone dates - for services?15:33
JaffaRather than solving the problems now,, someone should take the action to go off an come up with a plan. With dates. Which are communicated.15:33
dnearyAnd ideally, documenting what they're going to do in the wiki15:34
dnearyAnd checking things off as they're done15:34
bergietekojo: can we expect input from Daniel for this?15:34
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tekojobergie: I think some15:34
tekojothere he is now :)15:34
bergie...or should we try to come up with the plan with X-Fade and JimiDini (keeping X-Fade's holidays in mind)15:35
danielwilmssorry for being late15:35
bergiehey danielwilms15:35
* Jaffa guesses that bergie, you might have to own this first action.15:35
danielwilmsanother meeting at the same time15:35
Jaffadanielwilms: no probs, thanks for making it15:35
bergieJaffa: ok, I'll take SSO plan and scheduling15:35
rsuplidoI think the user account consolidation is the biggest task15:35
Jaffabergie: Thanks.15:36
Jaffarsuplido: Agreed.15:36
danielwilmsrsuplido: agree15:36
rsuplidoi thought this was a great start:
JaffaRight, I think that wraps up SSO15:36
Jaffa### GARAGE: ferenc15:36
ferencWhat would you like to hear?15:36
JaffaBrainstorm items were around aligning with MeeGo and providing a "how-to use" best-of-breed services so fewer projects need to use it.15:36
JaffaTherefore, BAU work; current status and how those items (or others) are progressing.15:37
ferencAligning with MeeGo: aligning with what? They don't have similar service.15:37
dnearyrsuplido, I wasn't aware of that page... filling in for wiki15:37
Jaffaferenc: Well, that was part of the task - finding out the plans in that area etc.15:37
Jaffaferenc: Concentrate on the BAU & current status, then.15:38
ferencBy folloing the MeeGo meetings I did not get the impression that they are planning anything similar to our garage.15:38
rsuplidodneary, x-fade led that project sometime back15:38
ferencBAU: it is lately helping projects with their repository problems (mainly git)15:39
X-FadeThere is not something in developement for MeeGo yet.15:39
ferencBut I had less than 10 hours of such work in the past 2 months.15:39
tekojoMeeGo won't have a project location like Garage15:39
ferencCurrent status: as Bergie said there are ~46000 users. 1673 registered garage projects, out of which 385 uses git.15:40
DocScrutinizercould build for meego then?15:40
ferencHard to say the number of active projects, but the ones using git are committing more source code.15:41
lcukdid garage git services manage to become usable for on device developers?15:41
bergieDocScrutinizer: IIRC the community OBS will build for both15:41
lcukit was an issue highlighted at first with it15:41
ferencDocScrutinizer: garage does not build anything.15:41
DocScrutinizerferenc: point15:41
JaffaWe'll deal with builing in the next issue15:41
ferencJaffa: imho the service is running fine. If we really really want to work on it, then I would consider upgrading to the latest open version of GForge.15:42
Jaffaferenc: In the earlier meeting it was decided that we wouldn't do that (unless it was necessary for SSO, I suppose)15:42
dnearyrsuplido, It may have been before I had access to the wiki server15:42
X-FadeDo we have a pressing need of having something improved on garage?15:42
ferencOr we could invest time into facelift..15:42
JaffaSo, the main outstaning action is to produce a wiki page of the best tools out there which provide the best open alternatives15:43
ferencJaffa: yeah, exactly. So15:43
JaffaWhich might be gitorious,, sourceforge or ...15:43
JaffaA facelift would be nice, of course.15:43
lcukferenc, would the new version of gforge give a facelift for free (along with the other features?)15:43
dnearyferenc, "align with meego" means "send new developers who want to create projects to the equivalent in MeeGo"15:43
ferenclcuk: no.15:43
lcukferenc, ok, do you have a link to the new version changenotes/overview?15:44
lcukie, what benefits it would bring15:44
X-FadeI don't feel it is wise to spend a whole lot of time on garage. It works mostly for what it does.15:44
ferencdneary: I don't want to send them anywhere. MeeGo does not offer similar services. They could update their "Garage" page and send their users where they wish.15:44
JaffaOK, action: JAFFA to feed facelift & best practice docs into priority list for tasks (however that is managed). The latter could be done by anyone in the community with a knowlege of tooling15:44
ferencI want to keep the developers and users.15:44
ferencThey are real.15:44
X-FadeWe also have to see that we really have limited time to work on things.15:45
lcukindeed X-Fade, but if the (for instance) git integration was closer, it would be beneficial15:45
DocScrutinizerferenc: +115:45
X-FadeBetter pick things that matter most.15:45
JaffaX-Fade: Hence prioritisation task above.15:45
JaffaLet's move on.15:45
X-FadeIt is not like we have multiple people working full time on it.15:45
danielwilmsX-Fade: agree15:45
Jaffa### 3) Packages & downloads15:45
* lcuk nods15:45
JaffaThis is definitely X-Fade15:45
dnearyferenc, The point was that Garage is not going to get any new features, and will basically be unmaintained soon, so we need to propose a migration path for people who want to create newer projects  (perhaps reading the logs would help)15:45
X-FadeSome improvements got implemented for Packages.15:46
JaffaSome of the Brainstorm items were: OBS, combining Downloas & Packages; appinstaller as replacement for HAM with integration infrastructure & onation framework15:46
bergieJaffa: Packages now provides OCS API for all repositories (already used by KISStester), and we've been participating in the OCS standardization work15:46
DocScrutinizerdneary: if the existing feature set is just fine, why abandon garage just because maintenance mode?15:46
JaffaX-Fade: So, current (and typical BAU); current status and progress on any of the above.15:46
dnearyAnd lcuk has a proposal he'd like to discuss also.15:47
Jaffabergie: Cool. Some better examples and docs would be good.15:47
bergieJaffa: certainly, I'll take the action of having a wiki page on OCS @ Maemo15:47
Jaffabergie: Thanks.15:47
danielwilmsJaffa: I could put some more work into the appinstaller15:47
bergieRegarding the donation framework, I've been studying Flattr APIs a bit and it seems like a reasonably good match15:47
X-FadeStill looking into OBS integration. The appinstaller part fell flat because of holiday again.15:48
danielwilmsX-Fade: good starting point to pick it  up again15:48
Jaffabergie: Well, before getting on to the Brainstorm items I'd like to know more about what's been going on so far and what's taking the time.15:48
lcukdanielwilms, potential for app installer to be given a sync list and work through installing and removing a set of applications?15:49
JaffaWith limited resource, some of the BAU tasks perhaps could be done by the community (on any topic)15:49
JaffaLet's not have another brainstorm please.15:49
JaffaThis is about trying to get a handle on what's been happening since then.15:49
X-FadeBut basically the BAU part ate most of my time, so no real progress on new features.15:49
danielwilmslcuk: installing's what we were working on15:49
X-Fadelcuk: We were working on that with Marius and Daniel.15:50
JaffaX-Fade: What is the BAU stuff?15:50
danielwilmsX-Fade's part is it got stuck on my table15:50
Jaffa(And where were those discussions happening? It seems poor that as a community we moan about private comms within MeeGo, but then do the same for our own projects... :-/)15:50
X-FadeJaffa: Managing the repositories, cleaning up Qt issues, preparing for releases, setting up OBS for extras, setting up OBS for MeeGo.15:51
lcukJaffa, it wasnt private, it was brought up at the last meetng fully15:51
danielwilmsJaffa: it is basically first just a proof of concept based on the ideas which came up in the last big meeting15:51
JaffaX-Fade: And where are we with OBS? Are there blockers/plans for moving from existing autobuilder to OBS?15:52
X-FadeJaffa: OBS for fremantle works for everything which doesn't use Qt.15:52
X-FadeJaffa: I need to see if someone can help repackaging Qt as they have a lot of scratchboxisms.15:53
lcukX-Fade, i have some experience here15:53
lcukand can go over things with you perhap15:53
X-FadeLike putting x86 binaries in their armel dev packes ;)15:53
* lcuk shudders15:53
lcukthere shouldnt be any binaries in -dev packages afaik !15:54
X-Fadelcuk: tell that to qmake, moc etc.15:54
lcukcan you get me a list of the problem packages and I will raise some bugs and chase them up15:54
achipaIdidntdoit. Anyway, I can help there a bit, too, though my OBS skills are still lim 0.15:54
lcukachipa, certainly!15:54
X-FadeI can give people accounts to play around there.15:54
lcukachipa, it would be good for all of us to learn obs at same time15:55
X-FadeBasically 75% or so of Extras builds on OBS just fine.15:55
JaffaX-Fade: OK, can you take an ACTION to work with whomever to come up with a plan and outstanding issues? Needs to go in the wiki and be communicated15:55
JaffaThen achipa, lcuk and whomever can coordinate to assist15:55
alteregoAgreed, I was going to look into it myself, but I got put off.15:55
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: so that's 75% not using Qt?15:55
achipalcuk: +1, plus, I'm knee deep in Qt packaging anyway (trying to make a nice qt4.7+MTF starter pack for ubuntu)15:55
lcukachipa, neat, we can discuss this on one of the other channels15:56
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Snapshot I tested with in July didn't have many Qt apps in Extras itself.15:56
lcuktheres more now I notice15:56
JaffaC'mon please, let's stay focused.15:56
lcukand actual worthwhile ones from what I can see15:56
achipaDocScrutinizer: overall, maybe, the qt stuff started appearing in volume recently15:56
X-FadeJaffa: Yes, I need to work on that.15:56
* achipa zips15:56
JaffaNot everyone can spare loas of hours for IRC meetings :-p15:56
X-FadeJaffa: Problem is that I will be on holiday next week.15:57
lbtI can support access whilst X-Fade is away15:57
lbtno time to actually do the work though15:57
Jaffabergie's alreay mentioen the donations framework. bergie: can you take an ACTION to come up with a problem statement for maemo-developers, requirements and suggestions?15:57
lbtwe really could use help from general community devs15:58
bergieJaffa: at least a proposal, sure15:58
Jaffalbt: need some specific areas15:58
Jaffabergie: Yeah, cos I'd love to help (having proposed a similar idea ages ago)15:58
lbtX-Fade's list above15:58
alteregoI think a lot of us have been pushing for it :)15:59
alteregoMaybe even a community store.15:59
alteregoThough that somewhat stops the community feel imo15:59
lbtI'd like to get this into Nokia to the Harmattan SDK people too15:59
JaffaAnd on appinstaller, does someone want to take an action there to come up with a plan?15:59
danielwilmsI can summarize what we've done so far16:00
danielwilmson a wiki-page or on the list16:00
JaffaOK. Doesn't need to be owned by paid team, this is one of those tasks which can involve more community evs16:01
Jaffadanielwilms: ACTION wiki page. thanks16:01
achipalbt: that would (almost) be me16:01
lbtachipa: lets talk offline then :)16:01
JaffaAnything else to do on merging Downloads & Packages?16:02
JaffaWas the thought to properly merge them, or just to share backend?16:02
dnearylcuk, You aren't bringing up your proposal?16:02
X-FadeJaffa: Download would be a view on top of packages.16:03
bergieJaffa: merging, eventually. Needs quite a bit of template work to make Packages "consumer-friendly" but otherwise things are in place16:03
lcukwell dneary i just heard that a prototype few bits are already in motion - i brought it up at last meeting?16:03
JaffaX-Fade: bergie: cool16:03
lcukbut I will go over it again16:03
JaffaAnything else on Downloads & Packages16:03
Jaffalcuk: AOB, if we have time; if it's related to appinstaller?16:04
bergieit might be great to get some community design effort for the new Downloads templates (well, in reality Packages templates)16:04
Jaffabergie: /me nos.16:04
lcukhehjaffyes, it related to app installer and maemo.org16:04
JaffaACTION: Jaffa add templates to list as a community item16:04
lcukI brought up the idea about linking downloads with actual devices16:04
lcukto have a store and select/sync16:04
Jaffalcuk: Indeed; an there's lots to do and discuss there.16:04
JaffaI think it's off-topic for the core of this meeting though, which is to get a handle on what's going on16:05
lcukthats the point in the last meeting where I brought it up16:05
X-FadeWe might want to speed it up as we're past the hour.16:05
* Jaffa is resisting the temptation to brainstorm himself, but ...16:05
lcukit was left off the minutes though for some reason, but it looks like action has been ongoing16:05
dnearyX-Fade, In anticipation I'd blocked 2 hours16:05
Jaffalcuk: Because no-one committed to it AFAICT16:05
* Jaffa can't o that16:06
lcukJaffa, bergie has a presentation about it in 2 weeks16:06
JaffaAnd if we don't speed up, we'll have to abort (or continue without me, I don't care which)16:06
Jaffalcuk: How wonderful.16:06
JaffaNext. Bugzilla.16:06
JaffaBAU, status, brainstorm items?16:06
dnearyAnd esp. what happens now for Bugzilla 3.4 migration16:06
JaffaThe big brainstorm item being the Bugzilla 3.4 migration16:06
andre__Thanks to Karsten we have Bugzilla 3.4 up and running on the testserver. See his announcement at . It looks great.16:07
andre__David King (amigadave) has taken over to work on finishing the few more issues before it should be ready to go live (bugs 9068, 8551 and 4019); there are also a few small bugs but they're mainly aesthetic and can be fixed later (e.g. adding ""This is the Maemo community software issue tracker. It is sponsored by Nokia, but it is not Nokia's "central" bugtracker for Maemo."" to the frontpage).16:07
andre__I invite everybody to play and test the Bugzilla 3.4 test installation (sending bugmail is disabled) and file issues in against Websites >> Bugzilla.16:07
andre__As for me: BAU (mostly triaging bug reports, importing, keeping in sync, discussing, pinging, setting up a new product in Extras form time to time). I think Qaiku provides a good overview of what I've been doing.16:07
andre__For the future I expect less and less new reports in for Maemo5 (also, Nokia considers Maemo5 UI and platform libraries stable now, except for critical issues). Hence I've spend the last weeks cleaning up quite a lot, and I also started slowly diving into MeeGo Bugzilla by reading and triaging tickets.16:07
andre__My plan is that the Maemo part of my work will slowly decrease and that I spend the remaining time on MeeGo which will slowly increase. Plus I'm currently thinking about (and partially also discussing) how to handle user bug reports on Harmattan.16:07
andre__that's it... questions? :-P16:07
Jaffaandre__: :)16:07
X-FadeFast typing ;)16:07
Jaffaandre__: So are the blockers for go-live marked as such in Bugzilla?16:08
andre__Well, I pay three people for typing for me ;-)16:08
Jaffaandre__: And then it's jsut a prioritisation task to do the work. How much work is it to go-live, once the issues are fixed?16:08
andre__the "real" blocker for going live is to get some people into testing it, I'd say16:08
* DocScrutinizer wishes he had three people for doing the reading16:08
andre__no, they aren't. let me do that now16:08
lcukandre__, testzilla isnt working16:08
andre__it is. :) forgot the / at the end of the URL?16:09
lcukroger, thanks!16:09
andre__going live requires putting live bugzilla offline, syncing, putting new bugzilla online (and maybe check some scripts so we don't lose data as last time). should be doable in less than a day16:09
andre__with some planning16:10
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andre__(amigadave is unfortunately ill today otherwise he'd attend this meeting)16:10
lcukandre__, it certainly looks clearner16:10
andre__as said: please test and file bugs if you find time. :)16:11
Jaffaandre__: OK, so would it help to have a council blog post or something encouraging more testing?16:11
JaffaOr an email to maemo-developers; or even Extras product owners with some bugs in there?16:12
Jaffai.e. there's an action for someone to come up with a metho of rumming up more testing16:12
lcukandre__, your initial concerns about spiders and crawlers16:12
lcukthey dont go into https do they?16:13
lcukie as Jaffa suggests should be ok?16:13
Andy80Jaffa: I've tried to blog/tweet/FB it many times, but with very very little feedback :\16:13
andre__lcuk, errm, can you repeat my initial concerns please? :-P16:13
lcuk[1] URI deliberately spaced, no spiders and crawlers, please.16:13
X-FadeCome on guys, meeting, not talking.16:14
andre__Jaffa, I planned to ask in #maemo-bugs, but blogpost should be welcome too with a direct link to filing bug reports about issues to
andre__lcuk, that's Karsten's concerns, not mine ;-)16:14
JaffaRight; ACTION: andre__ draft a blog post for the council, or write a blog post which the council will plug16:15
JaffaNEXT. WIKI16:15
JaffaSome of the Brainstorm items: categorisation by OS, emphasise current versions, de-duping, Talk -> Wiki process & Maemo 5 use cases16:15
dnearySince the brainstorm: I fixed all outstanding issues in the wiki with mixed-cases in usernames16:15
dnearyAll the special pages listing logs, contributions, etc. should work now16:16
dnearyIn July & August I basically didn't do any Maemo work - July I was full time on 2 projects (GNOME census & training in GUADEC), August on vacation16:16
dnearyThe last week in August, I basically caught up & set the election underway16:16
dnearyAnd want to thank amigadave for doing a lot of the wiki gardening BAU while I was off the radar16:17
dnearyIn the brainstorm tasks, we've changed the behaviour of the search in the wiki so that it goes to a search page rather than "create a new page" by default16:18
dnearySo that one's mostly fixed16:18
dnearyI'd like to see us have something similar to Wikipedia's helpful "the page you want does not exist, but one of these could be useful" or whatever it is16:18
dnearyFor the wikification of forum posts, haven't started, for the use-case collection, I'm hoping that I can get the ball rolling with the kind of gentle reminders I have been doing on the mailing list16:19
dnearyWhen someone asks a question & gets an answer with some code in it, I have been saying "perhaps you'd like to document this in the wiki" with a link to the use-cases page16:20
dnearyHasn't worked well so far...16:20
dnearyAnd the OS categorisation & restructuring to archive older docs: that's going to be ongoing16:20
dnearyOh - I've also started to attack some of the documentation bugs in the documentation bug jar - at least to figure out what needs to be done to close them (and closing them if possible)16:21
dnearyThat's about it. Mostly BAU, with half an eye on the bigger tasks.16:21
tekojoguys, I need to go in ten minutes, can we interrupt to take the handover now?16:21
dnearySince I was essentially off-line for July & August, I'll be about 70 hours a month for the rest of the year16:22
Jaffadneary: OK, thanks.16:22
JaffaOK; only Planet & News outstanding (bergie) anyway16:23
JaffaSo we'll skip forward to 316:23
Jaffa### 3 # Discussion around community handover of maemo.org16:23
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alteregoI don't know if this is related to this point, but what about a repos for community led SSUs?16:24
tekojoSo, what Nokia would like to do is give complete control of to the community16:24
tekojoalterego: kind of, as in now the community can do that, and we (Nokia) won't be slowing it16:24
tekojoWhat the hand over means is that Nokia is giving the site to the community16:25
alteregoOkay, we can discuss it later, sorry for interrupting :)16:25
Jaffaalterego: Precedent already exists; and doesn't need discussion here. It's a no-braineer, especially now16:25
tekojowe will continue to support, but the community will be in full chaerge of things16:26
Jaffatekojo: With Nemein as the legal owner, and the Council as point of contact between Nemein and community?16:26
tekojoJaffa: yes, Nemein will be the maintainer in legal terms, as legally there needs to be party that is responsible16:26
dnearytekojo, Do Nemein also take over ownership of the Maemo trademark?16:27
tekojono, trademark stays as is, with the full fair use16:27
alteregoWhat is nemein's current affiliation with Maemo & Nokia?16:28
bergiealterego: we've been running (parts of) for Nokia for a few years now16:28
tekojoNemein has a contract to maintain maemo.org16:29
bergieand most of us have been in the community since the 770 days :-)16:29
alteregoOkay, bergie I understand it's your company? I just hadn't heard the name before now :)16:29
dnearytekojo, What does "full fair use" mean? Currently the community doesn't have free range on the Maemo trademark16:29
tekojodneary: like it is now, trademarks can't be left unattended16:30
dnearybergie, Do you envisage giving root on machines to some community people to do some of the maintenance work?16:30
alteregoAs it should be.16:30
bergiedneary: as needed. X-Fade was such a community person in the beginning16:30
bergiethere would probably have to be some contracts on liability though16:30
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lbtFWIW some meego admin types are (right now) debating how to handle community security at this level16:31
X-FadeHaving root should not be the goal though. Being able to do what is needed is.16:32
alteregoX-Fade: agreed, I'm guessing root is used figuratively here for whatever system areas are required for users roles.16:32
alteregoAnd let sudo permissions for whatever needs to be done.16:33
X-FadeFor instance, we don't manage the machines themselves. The ISP is responsible for that.16:33
JaffaThere are a number of outstanding questions, such as how the prioritisation will work; how the work assignment will work; and how we can start to get more people in the community interested.16:33
X-FadeSo if a community member with root messes up the machine, the ISP doesn't have to warrant the SLA.16:33
dnearyX-Fade, Indeed16:33
dnearyX-Fade, I think that it would be useful, for example, to have a team of 2 or 3 people who understand packages & downloads from start to finish, to be able to help out if you're not around16:34
Jaffatekojo: Can I give you an action to kick off a discussion based on this, and the other conversations, on maemo-community?16:34
Jaffadneary: +10016:34
X-Fadedneary: Sure, I'd love that.16:34
tekojoJaffa: sure, but I was kind of hoping to do it together with the council16:35
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tekojoBut now sorry, I really need to go, but do ask questions when I'm on #maemo and once I get the mail to -community, I know there will be questions :)16:36
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rsuplidonext topic?16:37
danielwilmssending a goodbye from tero :)16:38
danielwilmsJaffa: let's continue with the next topic?16:40
danielwilmsand leave the further discussion on the last topic for the list?16:40
lcukindeed danielwilms16:41
lcuksince we are in a lull:16:41
lcukcouncil voting is opened, how are we going to boost uptake this time, highlighting it in various threads as fit with links back to the voting wiki page would be a good start16:42
bergielcuk: announcing the handover might help16:42
Jaffadanielwilms: Yup16:42
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JaffaSorry. Work question16:42
JaffaFinally, 2: Planet & News16:42
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jacekowskiopen BME or i'll kill a kitten!!!16:43
JaffaBAU, current status & brainstorm items (some of which were comments in planet and sourcing news from social networks)16:43
bergieJaffa: nothing concrete for the reasons stated earlier16:43
bergiehowever, I've done some background work on stuff like categorization that will make the system smarter16:44
bergieI hope to deploy that for around the same time MeeGo News & planet goes live (since that will run the same system)16:44
bergie...the schedule for which is unfortunately open (waiting for server move)16:44
dnearybergie, Can I add something concrete for short term for you?16:45
dnearyRemoving "internettablettalk" from news sources16:45
bergiedneary: ok, I'll do it right now :-)16:45
rsuplidoyup, you can remove itt16:45
rsuplido*sniff* lol16:46
dnearyThere's a bug about it which is one of the longest-open16:46
bergiedneary: done16:46
JaffaAnything else on Planet & News? bergie sounds like you've got another ACTION to outline a rough plan, blockers etc. in the wiki16:50
JaffaFinally; Talk (Reggie)16:52
rsuplidoAside from my daily admin tasks on both and, additional TMO tasks are basically unchanged from my last reply here:
JaffaBAU, status (we saw the stats earlier) and Brainstorm tasks. Some of which were "improve content tools: RSS feeds & changing subjects) and email<->forum bridge16:52
rsuplido1) TMO SSO via CAS - waiting for CAS and SSO account consoslidation plan16:53
rsuplido2) Allow thread creators to change subject line - this was done June 5, 2010. Members can change thread titles within a year (not forever).16:53
rsuplido3) Email <-> forum - move to a new server has not yet happened. This is also in parallel with an indentical project with MeeGo where begie will help create a much better solution than a vbulletin plugin. *I don't know though how much we still want this feature in maemo.org16:53
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rsuplido4) RSS feed for posts and threads - I did look intio this and started creating a plug-in. RSS for a thread is easier to do, but rss for all posts i think is not feasible. It all becomes complicated when you filter data based on the level and status of the memeber. If this is *really* a needed feature, I can prioritize this.16:53
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* Jaffa would have thought posts per thread, and threads per forum (perhaps?)16:54
rsuplidofyi, I do a lot of things on the back-end as well -- I make sure back-ups are properly created everyday on the server (located in Texas) -- which is a spearate dedicated server from, and I archive them daily, weekly, and monthly on another server in a different location (in Washington, DC). I keep the server current (Red Hat) and monitor it with regards to performance issues and DDoS attacks, which happens once in16:54
rsuplidoThere is also the daily task of deleting and banning spammers -- where I compete with sjgadsby (and other mods) to delete them asap ;)16:54
achipaJaffa: threads per fourm is what is now available, no ?16:54
rsuplidoAnyway, my daily tasks are pretty much defined, that's why the way I am set-up at Nemein is a bit different as bergie and tekojo has mentioned earlier -- not really project-task-oriented, except for the specific ones like the four items enumerated above of course + special requests/enhancements that are randomly brought up in both forums. All of these enahancements are squeezed in to my task list and with no addtional billab16:55
Jaffaachipa: Ah, yes16:55
dnearyrsuplido, Is there a plan to have forum<->email for Maemo or not?16:55
rsuplidodneary, that's what i want to know as well. there is an identical plan for which bergie has offered to help with -- i think that can be used on TMO as well16:56
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Jaffarsuplido: I think it's wanted for both16:57
bergiersuplido: it can certainly be made for both, but schedule is an open question17:00
rsuplidothat's my update.17:03
JaffaSo, I think the big one is the forum<->email bridge; and working on a less CPU intensive approach for that would be good.17:03
JaffaCos the meego server move seems to be taking an inordinately long time17:03
JaffaAnything else on Talk?17:04
JaffaOtherwise we'll go onto the wrap-up & AOB17:04
rsuplidobergie brought up a nice tool that he has. i think it's a better solution.17:04
JaffaACTION: bergie to start a thread (probably on TMO ;-)) about the tool to see if there's scope for community involvement, rather than needing time within the paid budget?17:05
bergieJaffa: that is a possibility. Maybe reggie can start the thread and then I can provide some examples and pointers?17:06
Jaffabergie: Even better. ACTION: reggie for the above.17:06
Jaffa## 4. Wrap-up & next steps (Jaffa)17:06
* Jaffa will ask if anyone's got a better log than the one he has (hopefully from the bot ;-))17:06
* Jaffa will produce a wiki page with actions and due dates17:06
* Jaffa will email it around17:06
* Jaffa will expect people to update & correct, otherwise it'll be accepted.17:07
JaffaThere'll be discussion about community processes about the handover17:07
lcukJaffa, we should use the meeting bot, I thought it was enabled for this already, it was in previous meetings17:07
Jaffalcuk: It should be, and it is here17:07
JaffaThere'll be a new council before the week is out, so I will do these tasks before then, and hopefully the new council will be able to come in with a clean handover & transition17:08
lcukok, then we need to update the meeting page
lcukspeaking of the Council17:08
Jaffalcuk: X-Fade does that, AFAIK17:08
JaffaSo, those are the next steps.17:08
Jaffa### 5. AOB17:09
JaffaDon't forget to vote! ;-)17:09
lcukzehjotkah just upped the game,  the Community council candidates have a new place to post!
lcukhe has done a declaration as a youtube video17:09
JaffaYeah, but other candidates actually came to the meeting and were involved in the prior discussion ;-p17:09
JaffaBesides, you know how I like being videoed ;-)17:09
lcukJaffa, indeed, and zehjotkah looked comfortable also - its just another mechanism we can use17:10
* Jaffa particularly thanks Andy80 and achipa for their attendance.17:10
lcukJaffa, regarding council activities, it is noted that different members have their skills and abilities and I hope we get a good spread of people in this election!17:11
dnearyI'm off guys17:11
dnearyThanks for the meeting!17:11
JaffaAs outgoing chair, I wish everyone good luck; and thank - on the record - the contributions of the current council.17:11
JaffaThanks dneary17:11
lcukwe should take every opportunity to pump it and get people voting - so in threads and twitter, direct people to the right place is important17:11
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lcuk+100000 Jaffa17:12
rsuplidothanks Jaffa17:12
lcukthe entire council has been cool this time17:12
JaffaAnyway, thanks all and I'll go and find someone to write a blog post on the Council blog and for the front page which we can use to pimp the election17:12
JaffaWhilst I go and write-up some minutes17:13
rsuplidogtg. thanks *.*17:13
ferencthanks, bye!17:13
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Andy80Jaffa: thanks to you!17:14
Andy80Jaffa: as I said at the beginning I was just a "listener" this time, there's still lot I've to learn about these meetings and how they works to be able to give a good contribute :)17:14
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achipayeah, sorry, about my ramblings an in-out comments, being at work and all17:16
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Andy80see ya next time, bye :)17:23
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