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| Andy80 | hi all | 13:50 |
|---|---|---|
| Andy80 | am I too late? | 13:50 |
| bergie | too early :-) | 13:51 |
| bergie | still 1h to go | 13:51 |
| Andy80 | thanks :) | 13:56 |
| Andy80 | (I'll never understand these time-zones :D ) | 13:56 |
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| achipa | Andy80: wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for DST funk | 14:47 |
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| Andy80 | dst? | 14:48 |
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| achipa | Andy80: daylight saving time... summer time... | 14:58 |
| dneary | Hi all | 14:59 |
| achipa | hi | 14:59 |
| rsuplido | good morning | 14:59 |
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| ferenc | hello | 15:00 |
| Jaffa | rsuplido: Cool, didn't think you' be able to make it | 15:00 |
| * Jaffa has a broken 'D' key. Apologies. | 15:00 | |
| X-Fade | hi | 15:01 |
| Jaffa | How're we doing with people? | 15:02 |
| andre__ | olla | 15:02 |
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| bergie | hi | 15:02 |
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| Jaffa | We've got tekojo, dneary, X-Fade, ferenc, rsuplido, andre__, bergie from the paid side; and achipa and myself from the council | 15:03 |
| dneary | Anyone from off the council? | 15:03 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles too, sorry. | 15:03 |
| Andy80 | (and a silent listener/reader that will try to understand how this meeting works :) ) | 15:03 |
| * JimiDini = +1 from "paid side" | 15:03 | |
| JimiDini | hi | 15:04 |
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| alterego | Good afternoon folks | 15:04 |
| Jaffa | Has anyone got any questions oon the agena? http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo-org_community_meeting-today-12-00_utc/ | 15:04 |
| SD69_ | hello | 15:04 |
| Jaffa | (apart from the broken <ol> formatting on maemo.org :-() | 15:04 |
| jacekowski | morning | 15:04 |
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| Duckboot | Crowded.... | 15:05 |
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| Jaffa | Bah, I can't set the topic. Ah well, agenda is http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo-org_community_meeting-today-12-00_utc/ | 15:05 |
| dneary | Can someone op Jaffa plz? | 15:06 |
| Jaffa | First topic is tekojo taking us through what resources are currently being paid for for maemo.org; and how that's likely to change in future. | 15:07 |
| Jaffa | ### 1) # Overview of current paid resources for maemo.org, and current thoughts on roadmap/future (Tero Kojo) | 15:07 |
| Jaffa | ###### | 15:07 |
| tekojo | Thanks | 15:07 |
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| tekojo | So currently the situation is andre__ and X-Fade are pretty much full time, with tasks in MeeGo too | 15:08 |
| tekojo | then dneary is 50h/month | 15:08 |
| tekojo | and then Nemein has a separate maintenance contract, that accounts to something like 1 person | 15:09 |
| tekojo | but we can talk more on the Nemein part at the end of this meet | 15:09 |
| tekojo | then there is rsuplido who is basically looking after talk (I would not put a specific hour number on that work) | 15:10 |
| * Jaffa nods - obvious question is how Nemein decide who (and, relatedly, what) gets done by that one person. | 15:10 | |
| rsuplido | *and forum.meego.com | 15:10 |
| tekojo | and as most people have noticed Stskeeps is pretty much meego now | 15:11 |
| Jaffa | tekojo: Does this therefore cover all aspects of maemo.org apart from the hardware; e.g. OS maintenance as well as apps? | 15:11 |
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| tekojo | Jaffa: pretty much | 15:12 |
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| tekojo | the hardware is from an ISP and they handle it up to Apache, more or less | 15:12 |
| tekojo | I do not see any dramatic changes for 2011, but that having been said visibility is not the best right now | 15:12 |
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| lcuk | eep, missed start, reading scrollback | 15:13 |
| Jaffa | tekojo: and so JimiDini, ferenc et al come under Nemein; through bergie. | 15:13 |
| *** Jaffa changes topic to "http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo-org_community_meeting-today-12-00_utc/" | 15:14 | |
| tekojo | Jaffa: correct | 15:14 |
| alterego | I was under the impression Nokia would continue funding until the community completely stagnates? | 15:14 |
| tekojo | alterego: yes, maemo.org will still be there for the community | 15:14 |
| bergie | Jaffa: as do X-Fade and rsuplido, though they work pretty much independently | 15:14 |
| lcuk | the community who managed to increase downloads from 20 to 30 million in the last month alone! | 15:14 |
| tekojo | but the budgeting system in Nokia is such that I can not make any promises that involve money until the budget is frozen | 15:15 |
| tekojo | and that happens every six months | 15:15 |
| Jaffa | bergie: OK. | 15:15 |
| Jaffa | tekojo: At which points in the year, OOI? | 15:15 |
| rsuplido | fyi, tmo is still going strong: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=809787&postcount=2 | 15:15 |
| tekojo | Jaffa: usually way too late :) like 1-2 months before year end and mid-year | 15:15 |
| bergie | Jaffa: contracts are for each year half, so Q1&Q2, then Q3&Q4 | 15:16 |
| lcuk | rsuplido, awesome! | 15:16 |
| Jaffa | tekojo: Cool. | 15:16 |
| tekojo | I mean, I can't make promises with numbers, but we will make sure meamo.org stays there for the community | 15:17 |
| Jaffa | That's a good overview of where we are now. Does anybody want to say anything more before we move on to individual/group's progress with the brainstorm items? | 15:17 |
| bergie | rsuplido: I have the same feel about maemo.org as well, number of apps and downloads is growing still quite nicely, and we have some 46k users | 15:17 |
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| alterego | Looks positive, though I'd be more interested to see those graphs at the end of the year. | 15:17 |
| achipa | I reckon there won't be a significant user falloff until the next year | 15:17 |
| X-Fade | I expect the same. | 15:18 |
| alterego | I think that considering the next iteration, it's still more Maemo than MeeGo, and I think they'll come here. | 15:18 |
| achipa | as most people have the N900 for less than a year, and also no MeeGo phones available yet | 15:18 |
| Jaffa | Agree | 15:18 |
| bergie | achipa: and even then maemo.org may provide a more "agile" home for some MeeGo community things as well ;-) | 15:18 |
| dneary | I expect significant fall-off will start with app uploads, and spread from there to forums, lists & IRC. | 15:18 |
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| achipa | Jaffa: alterego: Nokia markets that as MeeGo, and Quim said he does not want those folks on maemo.org | 15:19 |
| lcuk | for reference with ovi, I saw reported numbers on twitter of ~60million/month | 15:19 |
| andre__ | "okay, the topic for this meeting was what again?" ;-) | 15:19 |
| alterego | Oh, okay. | 15:19 |
| Jaffa | achipa: Indeed; that's slightlyly off-topic for this meeting, but certainly the purpose of meego.com for Harmattan people is something which is... unclear. | 15:19 |
| alterego | Yes, lets talk about this some other time :) | 15:19 |
| achipa | aye, sorry for the digression | 15:20 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Not much we can do about that here and now though. | 15:20 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Exactly. | 15:20 |
| Jaffa | #### /1 | 15:20 |
| Jaffa | ### 2) Overview of Brainstorm roadmap progress & current status | 15:20 |
| Jaffa | #### | 15:20 |
| Jaffa | What I'd like to see is a summary of what each area's BAU status is, and how things which were discussed and planned out of the Brainstorm have been followed. | 15:21 |
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| Jaffa | I'll say I'm a little disappointed with the communication following the Brainstorm. People agreed a set of six month targets in conjunction with the community and then rarely responded to emails on the topics. | 15:22 |
| andre__ | (at least for Bugzilla it's hard to set a 6months target) | 15:22 |
| Jaffa | However, I suspect the current status/BAU will extrapolate on that, so we can tackle it individually. | 15:22 |
| Jaffa | So, for each area, if there's BAU; can the person responsible describe what's going on there, how much time they've got for projects vs. BAU and so how the Brainstorm items are progressing? | 15:23 |
| bergie | Jaffa: as said earlier in the emails, having to wait for contracts has hurt our part of the activities until now | 15:23 |
| Jaffa | andre__: We can comment on specific items when we get there. | 15:23 |
| Jaffa | ## 2.1) SSO (tekojo/X-Fade) | 15:24 |
| Jaffa | This was to get single (rather than shared) sign-on across Bugzilla, Garage, wiki, talk, Midgard) | 15:24 |
| X-Fade | No progress from my side. | 15:24 |
| X-Fade | I didn't have any time to even think about it unfortunately. | 15:25 |
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| bergie | JimiDini, want to comment? danielwilms doesn't appear to be here | 15:25 |
| tekojo | daniel was looking at it, but he has been really occupied elsewhere | 15:25 |
| JimiDini | Jaffa: no real progress. summer was really slow for various reasons | 15:26 |
| JimiDini | (including contracts, vacations, …) | 15:26 |
| lcuk | is there any potential for crossover in the lessons SSO in meego | 15:27 |
| lcuk | ie to make it simpler on maemo implementation | 15:27 |
| dneary | lcuk, My understanding is that both are going to use similar infrastructure | 15:27 |
| Jaffa | bergie: I'm not sure why contract sorting distracted from technical work - or was contract sorting done under the 1 person budget previously discusse? | 15:27 |
| lcuk | good :) | 15:27 |
| dneary | CAS + custom modules for various services | 15:27 |
| tekojo | lcuk: we are talking in meego of making it simpler, but then it won't be full out SSO | 15:27 |
| bergie | lcuk: the difference is that Maemo started from a heterogeneous situation, and consolidating from that is harder than doing SSO right from the beginning | 15:27 |
| dneary | We should be able to share the one for MediaWiki at least (if we can get around the username capitalisation hack) | 15:28 |
| Jaffa | dneary: And I'm amazed, and disheartened that over a year after the project was started *no* visible progress has been made. | 15:28 |
| lbt | FYI meego seems to be looking at drupal based SSO | 15:28 |
| JimiDini | SSO is not difficult. converting to SSO is difficult | 15:28 |
| lcuk | ok, just wondering since technical implementation details and lessons learnt are valuable | 15:28 |
| lbt | according to the arch doc | 15:28 |
| bergie | Jaffa: because we didn't have contracts we couldn't invest in any bigger work but obviously focused on keeping things running | 15:28 |
| rsuplido | The way I see it, SSO in MeeGo is working better | 15:28 |
| Jaffa | *Everyone* agreed that SSO was the #1 priority. | 15:28 |
| Jaffa | rsuplido: Well, it's still shared-sign on AFAICT | 15:29 |
| dneary | rsuplido, They have some of the same bugs we've had in the past | 15:29 |
| Jaffa | bergie: So the existing contract stopped? | 15:29 |
| achipa | JimiDini: rsuplido: well, it still sucks when I get into stat where I see log in/log out, bugzilla is not SSO, and OpenID is plain dead | 15:29 |
| dneary | Jaffa, Every 6 months | 15:29 |
| achipa | s/stat/a state/ | 15:29 |
| bergie | Jaffa: contracts are always only 6 month long, old one ended and because of the handover details getting the new one got delayed quite a bit | 15:30 |
| rsuplido | but the thing is, every new module that is added to MeeGo is connected to Drupal | 15:30 |
| rsuplido | that makes ist somewhat easier | 15:30 |
| Jaffa | dneary: The message seems to be that "ah, our contracts were being renegotiated (because of the handover)". But this has only been communicated over the past 2 days. | 15:30 |
| bergie | We already have most of the CAS stuff (SSO "clients" for various services) done | 15:30 |
| rsuplido | there was a common starting point | 15:30 |
| dneary | Jaffa, I'm not aware of any contract stuff | 15:31 |
| bergie | but what is completely missing is a tool for consolidating the accounts people already have across the different services | 15:31 |
| Jaffa | Similarly, when the brainstorm happened and SSO was committed to, what has come in as a higher priority. | 15:31 |
| Jaffa | bergie: Yes, that was always going to be the hardest part! | 15:31 |
| rsuplido | agree | 15:31 |
| Jaffa | If this highest priority item hasn't been worked on, I'm struggling to imagine what lower priority items could have been. | 15:31 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Basically Finland shuts down for the holidays. Keeping things running on your own eats a lot of time. | 15:31 |
| bergie | Jaffa: agreed that we could've communicated about this better, but generally I don't like talking about contracts before they actually exist ;-) | 15:32 |
| tekojo | ok, but about the SSO, as I see it the biggest thing open is merging the different user databases, who can take on that kind of work? | 15:33 |
| bergie | at least now that we know how the new post-handover contracts work things should be smoother | 15:33 |
| Jaffa | Right. So, who is going to take an action, with a due date, of coming up with an SSO implementation plan - with milestone dates - for maemo.org services? | 15:33 |
| Jaffa | Rather than solving the problems now,, someone should take the action to go off an come up with a plan. With dates. Which are communicated. | 15:33 |
| dneary | And ideally, documenting what they're going to do in the wiki | 15:34 |
| Jaffa | Indeed. | 15:34 |
| dneary | And checking things off as they're done | 15:34 |
| bergie | tekojo: can we expect input from Daniel for this? | 15:34 |
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| tekojo | bergie: I think some | 15:34 |
| tekojo | there he is now :) | 15:34 |
| bergie | ...or should we try to come up with the plan with X-Fade and JimiDini (keeping X-Fade's holidays in mind) | 15:35 |
| danielwilms | sorry for being late | 15:35 |
| bergie | hey danielwilms | 15:35 |
| * Jaffa guesses that bergie, you might have to own this first action. | 15:35 | |
| danielwilms | another meeting at the same time | 15:35 |
| Jaffa | danielwilms: no probs, thanks for making it | 15:35 |
| bergie | Jaffa: ok, I'll take SSO plan and scheduling | 15:35 |
| rsuplido | I think the user account consolidation is the biggest task | 15:35 |
| Jaffa | bergie: Thanks. | 15:36 |
| Jaffa | rsuplido: Agreed. | 15:36 |
| danielwilms | rsuplido: agree | 15:36 |
| rsuplido | i thought this was a great start: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Single_sign-on/Account_info_stored_in_ldap | 15:36 |
| Jaffa | Right, I think that wraps up SSO | 15:36 |
| Jaffa | ### GARAGE: ferenc | 15:36 |
| ferenc | What would you like to hear? | 15:36 |
| Jaffa | Brainstorm items were around aligning with MeeGo and providing a "how-to use" best-of-breed services so fewer projects need to use it. | 15:36 |
| Jaffa | Therefore, BAU work; current status and how those items (or others) are progressing. | 15:37 |
| ferenc | Aligning with MeeGo: aligning with what? They don't have similar service. | 15:37 |
| dneary | rsuplido, I wasn't aware of that page... filling in for wiki | 15:37 |
| Jaffa | ferenc: Well, that was part of the task - finding out the plans in that area etc. | 15:37 |
| Jaffa | ferenc: Concentrate on the BAU & current status, then. | 15:38 |
| ferenc | By folloing the MeeGo meetings I did not get the impression that they are planning anything similar to our garage. | 15:38 |
| rsuplido | dneary, x-fade led that project sometime back | 15:38 |
| ferenc | BAU: it is lately helping projects with their repository problems (mainly git) | 15:39 |
| X-Fade | There is not something in developement for MeeGo yet. | 15:39 |
| ferenc | But I had less than 10 hours of such work in the past 2 months. | 15:39 |
| tekojo | MeeGo won't have a project location like Garage | 15:39 |
| ferenc | Current status: as Bergie said there are ~46000 users. 1673 registered garage projects, out of which 385 uses git. | 15:40 |
| DocScrutinizer | could garage.maemo.org build for meego then? | 15:40 |
| ferenc | Hard to say the number of active projects, but the ones using git are committing more source code. | 15:41 |
| lcuk | did garage git services manage to become usable for on device developers? | 15:41 |
| bergie | DocScrutinizer: IIRC the community OBS will build for both | 15:41 |
| lcuk | it was an issue highlighted at first with it | 15:41 |
| ferenc | DocScrutinizer: garage does not build anything. | 15:41 |
| DocScrutinizer | ferenc: point | 15:41 |
| Jaffa | We'll deal with builing in the next issue | 15:41 |
| ferenc | Jaffa: imho the service is running fine. If we really really want to work on it, then I would consider upgrading to the latest open version of GForge. | 15:42 |
| Jaffa | ferenc: In the earlier meeting it was decided that we wouldn't do that (unless it was necessary for SSO, I suppose) | 15:42 |
| dneary | rsuplido, It may have been before I had access to the wiki server | 15:42 |
| X-Fade | Do we have a pressing need of having something improved on garage? | 15:42 |
| ferenc | Or we could invest time into facelift.. | 15:42 |
| Jaffa | So, the main outstaning action is to produce a wiki page of the best tools out there which provide the best open alternatives | 15:43 |
| ferenc | Jaffa: yeah, exactly. So | 15:43 |
| Jaffa | Which might be gitorious, code.google, sourceforge or ... | 15:43 |
| Jaffa | A facelift would be nice, of course. | 15:43 |
| lcuk | ferenc, would the new version of gforge give a facelift for free (along with the other features?) | 15:43 |
| dneary | ferenc, "align with meego" means "send new developers who want to create projects to the equivalent in MeeGo" | 15:43 |
| ferenc | lcuk: no. | 15:43 |
| lcuk | ferenc, ok, do you have a link to the new version changenotes/overview? | 15:44 |
| lcuk | ie, what benefits it would bring | 15:44 |
| X-Fade | I don't feel it is wise to spend a whole lot of time on garage. It works mostly for what it does. | 15:44 |
| ferenc | dneary: I don't want to send them anywhere. MeeGo does not offer similar services. They could update their "Garage" page and send their users where they wish. | 15:44 |
| Jaffa | OK, action: JAFFA to feed facelift & best practice docs into priority list for tasks (however that is managed). The latter could be done by anyone in the community with a knowlege of tooling | 15:44 |
| ferenc | I want to keep the maemo.org developers and users. | 15:44 |
| ferenc | They are real. | 15:44 |
| X-Fade | We also have to see that we really have limited time to work on things. | 15:45 |
| lcuk | indeed X-Fade, but if the (for instance) git integration was closer, it would be beneficial | 15:45 |
| DocScrutinizer | ferenc: +1 | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | Better pick things that matter most. | 15:45 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Hence prioritisation task above. | 15:45 |
| Jaffa | Let's move on. | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | It is not like we have multiple people working full time on it. | 15:45 |
| danielwilms | X-Fade: agree | 15:45 |
| Jaffa | ### 3) Packages & downloads | 15:45 |
| * lcuk nods | 15:45 | |
| Jaffa | This is definitely X-Fade | 15:45 |
| dneary | ferenc, The point was that Garage is not going to get any new features, and will basically be unmaintained soon, so we need to propose a migration path for people who want to create newer projects (perhaps reading the logs would help) | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | Some improvements got implemented for Packages. | 15:46 |
| Jaffa | Some of the Brainstorm items were: OBS, combining Downloas & Packages; appinstaller as replacement for HAM with integration infrastructure & onation framework | 15:46 |
| bergie | Jaffa: Packages now provides OCS API for all repositories (already used by KISStester), and we've been participating in the OCS standardization work | 15:46 |
| DocScrutinizer | dneary: if the existing feature set is just fine, why abandon garage just because maintenance mode? | 15:46 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: So, current (and typical BAU); current status and progress on any of the above. | 15:46 |
| dneary | And lcuk has a proposal he'd like to discuss also. | 15:47 |
| Jaffa | bergie: Cool. Some better examples and docs would be good. | 15:47 |
| bergie | Jaffa: certainly, I'll take the action of having a wiki page on OCS @ Maemo | 15:47 |
| Jaffa | bergie: Thanks. | 15:47 |
| danielwilms | Jaffa: I could put some more work into the appinstaller | 15:47 |
| bergie | Regarding the donation framework, I've been studying Flattr APIs a bit and it seems like a reasonably good match | 15:47 |
| X-Fade | Still looking into OBS integration. The appinstaller part fell flat because of holiday again. | 15:48 |
| danielwilms | X-Fade: good starting point to pick it up again | 15:48 |
| Jaffa | bergie: Well, before getting on to the Brainstorm items I'd like to know more about what's been going on so far and what's taking the time. | 15:48 |
| lcuk | danielwilms, potential for app installer to be given a sync list and work through installing and removing a set of applications? | 15:49 |
| Jaffa | With limited resource, some of the BAU tasks perhaps could be done by the community (on any topic) | 15:49 |
| Jaffa | Let's not have another brainstorm please. | 15:49 |
| Jaffa | This is about trying to get a handle on what's been happening since then. | 15:49 |
| X-Fade | But basically the BAU part ate most of my time, so no real progress on new features. | 15:49 |
| danielwilms | lcuk: installing definitely...it's what we were working on | 15:49 |
| lcuk | cool | 15:50 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: We were working on that with Marius and Daniel. | 15:50 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: What is the BAU stuff? | 15:50 |
| danielwilms | X-Fade's part is ready...now it got stuck on my table | 15:50 |
| lcuk | :D | 15:50 |
| Jaffa | (And where were those discussions happening? It seems poor that as a community we moan about private comms within MeeGo, but then do the same for our own projects... :-/) | 15:50 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Managing the repositories, cleaning up Qt issues, preparing for releases, setting up OBS for extras, setting up OBS for MeeGo. | 15:51 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, it wasnt private, it was brought up at the last meetng fully | 15:51 |
| danielwilms | Jaffa: it is basically first just a proof of concept based on the ideas which came up in the last big meeting | 15:51 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: And where are we with OBS? Are there blockers/plans for moving from existing autobuilder to OBS? | 15:52 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: OBS for fremantle works for everything which doesn't use Qt. | 15:52 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: I need to see if someone can help repackaging Qt as they have a lot of scratchboxisms. | 15:53 |
| lcuk | X-Fade, i have some experience here | 15:53 |
| lcuk | and can go over things with you perhap | 15:53 |
| X-Fade | Like putting x86 binaries in their armel dev packes ;) | 15:53 |
| * lcuk shudders | 15:53 | |
| DocScrutinizer | :-S | 15:53 |
| lcuk | there shouldnt be any binaries in -dev packages afaik ! | 15:54 |
| X-Fade | lcuk: tell that to qmake, moc etc. | 15:54 |
| lcuk | can you get me a list of the problem packages and I will raise some bugs and chase them up | 15:54 |
| achipa | Ididntdoit. Anyway, I can help there a bit, too, though my OBS skills are still lim 0. | 15:54 |
| lcuk | achipa, certainly! | 15:54 |
| lbt | hi | 15:54 |
| X-Fade | I can give people accounts to play around there. | 15:54 |
| lcuk | achipa, it would be good for all of us to learn obs at same time | 15:55 |
| X-Fade | Basically 75% or so of Extras builds on OBS just fine. | 15:55 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: OK, can you take an ACTION to work with whomever to come up with a plan and outstanding issues? Needs to go in the wiki and be communicated | 15:55 |
| Jaffa | Then achipa, lcuk and whomever can coordinate to assist | 15:55 |
| alterego | Agreed, I was going to look into it myself, but I got put off. | 15:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | X-Fade: so that's 75% not using Qt? | 15:55 |
| achipa | lcuk: +1, plus, I'm knee deep in Qt packaging anyway (trying to make a nice qt4.7+MTF starter pack for ubuntu) | 15:55 |
| DocScrutinizer | :-/ | 15:55 |
| lcuk | achipa, neat, we can discuss this on one of the other channels | 15:56 |
| X-Fade | DocScrutinizer: Snapshot I tested with in July didn't have many Qt apps in Extras itself. | 15:56 |
| lcuk | theres more now I notice | 15:56 |
| Jaffa | C'mon please, let's stay focused. | 15:56 |
| lcuk | and actual worthwhile ones from what I can see | 15:56 |
| achipa | DocScrutinizer: overall, maybe, the qt stuff started appearing in volume recently | 15:56 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Yes, I need to work on that. | 15:56 |
| * achipa zips | 15:56 | |
| Jaffa | Not everyone can spare loas of hours for IRC meetings :-p | 15:56 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Problem is that I will be on holiday next week. | 15:57 |
| lbt | I can support access whilst X-Fade is away | 15:57 |
| lbt | no time to actually do the work though | 15:57 |
| Jaffa | bergie's alreay mentioen the donations framework. bergie: can you take an ACTION to come up with a problem statement for maemo-developers, requirements and suggestions? | 15:57 |
| lbt | we really could use help from general community devs | 15:58 |
| bergie | Jaffa: at least a proposal, sure | 15:58 |
| Jaffa | lbt: need some specific areas | 15:58 |
| Jaffa | bergie: Yeah, cos I'd love to help (having proposed a similar idea ages ago) | 15:58 |
| lbt | X-Fade's list above | 15:58 |
| alterego | I think a lot of us have been pushing for it :) | 15:59 |
| alterego | Maybe even a community store. | 15:59 |
| alterego | Though that somewhat stops the community feel imo | 15:59 |
| lbt | I'd like to get this into Nokia to the Harmattan SDK people too | 15:59 |
| Jaffa | And on appinstaller, does someone want to take an action there to come up with a plan? | 15:59 |
| danielwilms | I can summarize what we've done so far | 16:00 |
| danielwilms | on a wiki-page or on the list | 16:00 |
| Jaffa | OK. Doesn't need to be owned by paid team, this is one of those tasks which can involve more community evs | 16:01 |
| Jaffa | danielwilms: ACTION wiki page. thanks | 16:01 |
| achipa | lbt: that would (almost) be me | 16:01 |
| lbt | achipa: lets talk offline then :) | 16:01 |
| Jaffa | Anything else to do on merging Downloads & Packages? | 16:02 |
| Jaffa | Was the thought to properly merge them, or just to share backend? | 16:02 |
| dneary | lcuk, You aren't bringing up your proposal? | 16:02 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: Download would be a view on top of packages. | 16:03 |
| bergie | Jaffa: merging, eventually. Needs quite a bit of template work to make Packages "consumer-friendly" but otherwise things are in place | 16:03 |
| lcuk | well dneary i just heard that a prototype few bits are already in motion - i brought it up at last meeting? | 16:03 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: bergie: cool | 16:03 |
| lcuk | but I will go over it again | 16:03 |
| Jaffa | Anything else on Downloads & Packages | 16:03 |
| lcuk | Yes | 16:03 |
| X-Fade | No | 16:03 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: AOB, if we have time; if it's related to appinstaller? | 16:04 |
| bergie | it might be great to get some community design effort for the new Downloads templates (well, in reality Packages templates) | 16:04 |
| Jaffa | bergie: /me nos. | 16:04 |
| lcuk | hehjaffyes, it related to app installer and maemo.org | 16:04 |
| Jaffa | ACTION: Jaffa add templates to list as a community item | 16:04 |
| lcuk | I brought up the idea about linking maemo.org downloads with actual devices | 16:04 |
| lcuk | to have a store and select/sync | 16:04 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Indeed; an there's lots to do and discuss there. | 16:04 |
| lcuk | http://maemo.org/maemo-meeting/maemo-meeting-2010-05-17.html#t15:31 | 16:05 |
| Jaffa | I think it's off-topic for the core of this meeting though, which is to get a handle on what's going on | 16:05 |
| lcuk | thats the point in the last meeting where I brought it up | 16:05 |
| X-Fade | We might want to speed it up as we're past the hour. | 16:05 |
| * Jaffa is resisting the temptation to brainstorm himself, but ... | 16:05 | |
| lcuk | it was left off the minutes though for some reason, but it looks like action has been ongoing | 16:05 |
| Jaffa | Indeed. | 16:05 |
| dneary | X-Fade, In anticipation I'd blocked 2 hours | 16:05 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: Because no-one committed to it AFAICT | 16:05 |
| * Jaffa can't o that | 16:06 | |
| lcuk | Jaffa, bergie has a presentation about it in 2 weeks | 16:06 |
| Jaffa | And if we don't speed up, we'll have to abort (or continue without me, I don't care which) | 16:06 |
| dneary | OK | 16:06 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: How wonderful. | 16:06 |
| Jaffa | Next. Bugzilla. | 16:06 |
| Jaffa | andre__: | 16:06 |
| Jaffa | BAU, status, brainstorm items? | 16:06 |
| dneary | And esp. what happens now for Bugzilla 3.4 migration | 16:06 |
| Jaffa | The big brainstorm item being the Bugzilla 3.4 migration | 16:06 |
| Jaffa | Ineed. | 16:06 |
| andre__ | Thanks to Karsten we have Bugzilla 3.4 up and running on the testserver. See his announcement at http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2010-August/004408.html . It looks great. | 16:07 |
| andre__ | David King (amigadave) has taken over to work on finishing the few more issues before it should be ready to go live (bugs 9068, 8551 and 4019); there are also a few small bugs but they're mainly aesthetic and can be fixed later (e.g. adding ""This is the Maemo community software issue tracker. It is sponsored by Nokia, but it is not Nokia's "central" bugtracker for Maemo."" to the frontpage). | 16:07 |
| andre__ | I invite everybody to play and test the Bugzilla 3.4 test installation (sending bugmail is disabled) and file issues in bugs.maemo.org against Websites > maemo.org> Bugzilla. | 16:07 |
| andre__ | As for me: BAU (mostly triaging bug reports, importing, keeping in sync, discussing, pinging, setting up a new product in Extras form time to time). I think Qaiku provides a good overview of what I've been doing. | 16:07 |
| andre__ | For the future I expect less and less new reports in bugs.maemo.org for Maemo5 (also, Nokia considers Maemo5 UI and platform libraries stable now, except for critical issues). Hence I've spend the last weeks cleaning up quite a lot, and I also started slowly diving into MeeGo Bugzilla by reading and triaging tickets. | 16:07 |
| andre__ | My plan is that the Maemo part of my work will slowly decrease and that I spend the remaining time on MeeGo which will slowly increase. Plus I'm currently thinking about (and partially also discussing) how to handle user bug reports on Harmattan. | 16:07 |
| andre__ | that's it... questions? :-P | 16:07 |
| Jaffa | andre__: :) | 16:07 |
| X-Fade | Fast typing ;) | 16:07 |
| Jaffa | andre__: So are the blockers for go-live marked as such in Bugzilla? | 16:08 |
| andre__ | Well, I pay three people for typing for me ;-) | 16:08 |
| Jaffa | andre__: And then it's jsut a prioritisation task to do the work. How much work is it to go-live, once the issues are fixed? | 16:08 |
| andre__ | the "real" blocker for going live is to get some people into testing it, I'd say | 16:08 |
| * DocScrutinizer wishes he had three people for doing the reading | 16:08 | |
| andre__ | no, they aren't. let me do that now | 16:08 |
| lcuk | andre__, testzilla isnt working | 16:08 |
| andre__ | it is. :) forgot the / at the end of the URL? | 16:09 |
| andre__ | https://test.maemo.org/testzilla/ | 16:09 |
| lcuk | roger, thanks! | 16:09 |
| andre__ | going live requires putting live bugzilla offline, syncing, putting new bugzilla online (and maybe check some scripts so we don't lose data as last time). should be doable in less than a day | 16:09 |
| andre__ | with some planning | 16:10 |
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| andre__ | (amigadave is unfortunately ill today otherwise he'd attend this meeting) | 16:10 |
| lcuk | andre__, it certainly looks clearner | 16:10 |
| andre__ | as said: please test and file bugs if you find time. :) | 16:11 |
| Jaffa | andre__: OK, so would it help to have a council blog post or something encouraging more testing? | 16:11 |
| Jaffa | Or an email to maemo-developers; or even Extras product owners with some bugs in there? | 16:12 |
| Jaffa | i.e. there's an action for someone to come up with a metho of rumming up more testing | 16:12 |
| lcuk | andre__, your initial concerns about spiders and crawlers | 16:12 |
| lcuk | they dont go into https do they? | 16:13 |
| lcuk | ie as Jaffa suggests should be ok? | 16:13 |
| Andy80 | Jaffa: I've tried to blog/tweet/FB it many times, but with very very little feedback :\ | 16:13 |
| andre__ | lcuk, errm, can you repeat my initial concerns please? :-P | 16:13 |
| lcuk | [1] URI deliberately spaced, no spiders and crawlers, please. | 16:13 |
| X-Fade | Come on guys, meeting, not talking. | 16:14 |
| andre__ | Jaffa, I planned to ask in #maemo-bugs, but blogpost should be welcome too with a direct link to filing bug reports about issues to https://bugs.maemo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=maemo.org%20Website&component=Bugzilla | 16:14 |
| andre__ | lcuk, that's Karsten's concerns, not mine ;-) | 16:14 |
| Jaffa | Right; ACTION: andre__ draft a blog post for the council, or write a blog post which the council will plug | 16:15 |
| andre__ | okay. | 16:15 |
| Jaffa | NEXT. WIKI | 16:15 |
| Jaffa | dneary: | 16:15 |
| dneary | OK | 16:15 |
| Jaffa | Some of the Brainstorm items: categorisation by OS, emphasise current versions, de-duping, Talk -> Wiki process & Maemo 5 use cases | 16:15 |
| dneary | Since the brainstorm: I fixed all outstanding issues in the wiki with mixed-cases in usernames | 16:15 |
| dneary | All the special pages listing logs, contributions, etc. should work now | 16:16 |
| dneary | In July & August I basically didn't do any Maemo work - July I was full time on 2 projects (GNOME census & training in GUADEC), August on vacation | 16:16 |
| dneary | The last week in August, I basically caught up & set the election underway | 16:16 |
| dneary | And want to thank amigadave for doing a lot of the wiki gardening BAU while I was off the radar | 16:17 |
| dneary | In the brainstorm tasks, we've changed the behaviour of the search in the wiki so that it goes to a search page rather than "create a new page" by default | 16:18 |
| dneary | So that one's mostly fixed | 16:18 |
| Jaffa | cool | 16:18 |
| dneary | I'd like to see us have something similar to Wikipedia's helpful "the page you want does not exist, but one of these could be useful" or whatever it is | 16:18 |
| dneary | For the wikification of forum posts, haven't started, for the use-case collection, I'm hoping that I can get the ball rolling with the kind of gentle reminders I have been doing on the mailing list | 16:19 |
| dneary | When someone asks a question & gets an answer with some code in it, I have been saying "perhaps you'd like to document this in the wiki" with a link to the use-cases page | 16:20 |
| dneary | Hasn't worked well so far... | 16:20 |
| dneary | And the OS categorisation & restructuring to archive older docs: that's going to be ongoing | 16:20 |
| dneary | Oh - I've also started to attack some of the documentation bugs in the documentation bug jar - at least to figure out what needs to be done to close them (and closing them if possible) | 16:21 |
| dneary | That's about it. Mostly BAU, with half an eye on the bigger tasks. | 16:21 |
| tekojo | guys, I need to go in ten minutes, can we interrupt to take the handover now? | 16:21 |
| dneary | Since I was essentially off-line for July & August, I'll be about 70 hours a month for the rest of the year | 16:22 |
| Jaffa | dneary: OK, thanks. | 16:22 |
| Jaffa | OK; only Planet & News outstanding (bergie) anyway | 16:23 |
| Jaffa | So we'll skip forward to 3 | 16:23 |
| Jaffa | ### 3 # Discussion around community handover of maemo.org | 16:23 |
| Jaffa | #### | 16:23 |
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| alterego | I don't know if this is related to this point, but what about a repos for community led SSUs? | 16:24 |
| tekojo | So, what Nokia would like to do is give complete control of maemo.org to the community | 16:24 |
| tekojo | alterego: kind of, as in now the community can do that, and we (Nokia) won't be slowing it | 16:24 |
| tekojo | What the hand over means is that Nokia is giving the site to the community | 16:25 |
| alterego | Okay, we can discuss it later, sorry for interrupting :) | 16:25 |
| Jaffa | alterego: Precedent already exists; and doesn't need discussion here. It's a no-braineer, especially now | 16:25 |
| tekojo | we will continue to support maemo.org, but the community will be in full chaerge of things | 16:26 |
| Jaffa | tekojo: With Nemein as the legal owner, and the Council as point of contact between Nemein and community? | 16:26 |
| tekojo | Jaffa: yes, Nemein will be the maintainer in legal terms, as legally there needs to be party that is responsible | 16:26 |
| dneary | tekojo, Do Nemein also take over ownership of the Maemo trademark? | 16:27 |
| tekojo | no, trademark stays as is, with the full fair use | 16:27 |
| alterego | What is nemein's current affiliation with Maemo & Nokia? | 16:28 |
| bergie | alterego: we've been running (parts of) maemo.org for Nokia for a few years now | 16:28 |
| tekojo | Nemein has a contract to maintain maemo.org | 16:29 |
| bergie | and most of us have been in the community since the 770 days :-) | 16:29 |
| alterego | Okay, bergie I understand it's your company? I just hadn't heard the name before now :) | 16:29 |
| dneary | tekojo, What does "full fair use" mean? Currently the community doesn't have free range on the Maemo trademark | 16:29 |
| tekojo | dneary: like it is now, trademarks can't be left unattended | 16:30 |
| dneary | bergie, Do you envisage giving root on maemo.org machines to some community people to do some of the maintenance work? | 16:30 |
| alterego | As it should be. | 16:30 |
| bergie | dneary: as needed. X-Fade was such a community person in the beginning | 16:30 |
| bergie | there would probably have to be some contracts on liability though | 16:30 |
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| lbt | FWIW some meego admin types are (right now) debating how to handle community security at this level | 16:31 |
| X-Fade | Having root should not be the goal though. Being able to do what is needed is. | 16:32 |
| lcuk | ++ | 16:32 |
| Jaffa | Indeed. | 16:32 |
| achipa | +1 | 16:32 |
| alterego | X-Fade: agreed, I'm guessing root is used figuratively here for whatever system areas are required for users roles. | 16:32 |
| alterego | And let sudo permissions for whatever needs to be done. | 16:33 |
| X-Fade | For instance, we don't manage the machines themselves. The ISP is responsible for that. | 16:33 |
| Jaffa | There are a number of outstanding questions, such as how the prioritisation will work; how the work assignment will work; and how we can start to get more people in the community interested. | 16:33 |
| X-Fade | So if a community member with root messes up the machine, the ISP doesn't have to warrant the SLA. | 16:33 |
| dneary | X-Fade, Indeed | 16:33 |
| dneary | X-Fade, I think that it would be useful, for example, to have a team of 2 or 3 people who understand packages & downloads from start to finish, to be able to help out if you're not around | 16:34 |
| Jaffa | tekojo: Can I give you an action to kick off a discussion based on this, and the other conversations, on maemo-community? | 16:34 |
| Jaffa | dneary: +100 | 16:34 |
| X-Fade | dneary: Sure, I'd love that. | 16:34 |
| tekojo | Jaffa: sure, but I was kind of hoping to do it together with the council | 16:35 |
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| tekojo | But now sorry, I really need to go, but do ask questions when I'm on #maemo and once I get the mail to -community, I know there will be questions :) | 16:36 |
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| rsuplido | next topic? | 16:37 |
| danielwilms | sending a goodbye from tero :) | 16:38 |
| achipa | o/ | 16:38 |
| danielwilms | Jaffa: let's continue with the next topic? | 16:40 |
| danielwilms | and leave the further discussion on the last topic for the list? | 16:40 |
| lcuk | indeed danielwilms | 16:41 |
| lcuk | since we are in a lull: | 16:41 |
| lcuk | council voting is opened, how are we going to boost uptake this time, highlighting it in various threads as fit with links back to the voting wiki page would be a good start | 16:42 |
| bergie | lcuk: announcing the maemo.org handover might help | 16:42 |
| Jaffa | danielwilms: Yup | 16:42 |
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| Jaffa | Sorry. Work question | 16:42 |
| Jaffa | Finally, 2: Planet & News | 16:42 |
| Jaffa | bergie: | 16:42 |
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| jacekowski | open BME or i'll kill a kitten!!! | 16:43 |
| Jaffa | BAU, current status & brainstorm items (some of which were comments in planet and sourcing news from social networks) | 16:43 |
| alterego | Heh | 16:43 |
| bergie | Jaffa: nothing concrete for the reasons stated earlier | 16:43 |
| bergie | however, I've done some background work on stuff like categorization that will make the system smarter | 16:44 |
| bergie | I hope to deploy that for maemo.org around the same time MeeGo News & planet goes live (since that will run the same system) | 16:44 |
| bergie | ...the schedule for which is unfortunately open (waiting for meego.com server move) | 16:44 |
| dneary | bergie, Can I add something concrete for short term for you? | 16:45 |
| dneary | Removing "internettablettalk" from news sources | 16:45 |
| bergie | dneary: ok, I'll do it right now :-) | 16:45 |
| rsuplido | yup, you can remove itt | 16:45 |
| rsuplido | *sniff* lol | 16:46 |
| dneary | There's a bug about it which is one of the longest-open | 16:46 |
| alterego | Heh | 16:46 |
| bergie | dneary: done | 16:46 |
| Jaffa | Cool. | 16:49 |
| Jaffa | Anything else on Planet & News? bergie sounds like you've got another ACTION to outline a rough plan, blockers etc. in the wiki | 16:50 |
| bergie | ok | 16:51 |
| Jaffa | Finally; Talk (Reggie) | 16:52 |
| rsuplido | Aside from my daily admin tasks on both talk.maemo.org and forum.meego.com, additional TMO tasks are basically unchanged from my last reply here: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=700668&postcount=14 | 16:52 |
| Jaffa | BAU, status (we saw the stats earlier) and Brainstorm tasks. Some of which were "improve content tools: RSS feeds & changing subjects) and email<->forum bridge | 16:52 |
| rsuplido | Basically: | 16:52 |
| rsuplido | 1) TMO SSO via CAS - waiting for CAS and SSO account consoslidation plan | 16:53 |
| rsuplido | 2) Allow thread creators to change subject line - this was done June 5, 2010. Members can change thread titles within a year (not forever). | 16:53 |
| rsuplido | 3) Email <-> forum - forum.meego.com move to a new server has not yet happened. This is also in parallel with an indentical project with MeeGo where begie will help create a much better solution than a vbulletin plugin. *I don't know though how much we still want this feature in maemo.org | 16:53 |
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| rsuplido | 4) RSS feed for posts and threads - I did look intio this and started creating a plug-in. RSS for a thread is easier to do, but rss for all posts i think is not feasible. It all becomes complicated when you filter data based on the level and status of the memeber. If this is *really* a needed feature, I can prioritize this. | 16:53 |
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| * Jaffa would have thought posts per thread, and threads per forum (perhaps?) | 16:54 | |
| rsuplido | fyi, I do a lot of things on the back-end as well -- I make sure back-ups are properly created everyday on the server (located in Texas) -- which is a spearate dedicated server from maemo.org, and I archive them daily, weekly, and monthly on another server in a different location (in Washington, DC). I keep the server current (Red Hat) and monitor it with regards to performance issues and DDoS attacks, which happens once in | 16:54 |
| rsuplido | There is also the daily task of deleting and banning spammers -- where I compete with sjgadsby (and other mods) to delete them asap ;) | 16:54 |
| achipa | Jaffa: threads per fourm is what is now available, no ? | 16:54 |
| rsuplido | Anyway, my daily tasks are pretty much defined, that's why the way I am set-up at Nemein is a bit different as bergie and tekojo has mentioned earlier -- not really project-task-oriented, except for the specific ones like the four items enumerated above of course + special requests/enhancements that are randomly brought up in both forums. All of these enahancements are squeezed in to my task list and with no addtional billab | 16:55 |
| Jaffa | achipa: Ah, yes | 16:55 |
| dneary | rsuplido, Is there a plan to have forum<->email for Maemo or not? | 16:55 |
| rsuplido | dneary, that's what i want to know as well. there is an identical plan for forum.meego.com which bergie has offered to help with -- i think that can be used on TMO as well | 16:56 |
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| Jaffa | rsuplido: I think it's wanted for both | 16:57 |
| rsuplido | correct | 16:57 |
| rsuplido | bergie? | 16:58 |
| bergie | rsuplido: it can certainly be made for both, but schedule is an open question | 17:00 |
| rsuplido | that's my update. | 17:03 |
| Jaffa | OK. | 17:03 |
| Jaffa | So, I think the big one is the forum<->email bridge; and working on a less CPU intensive approach for that would be good. | 17:03 |
| Jaffa | Cos the meego server move seems to be taking an inordinately long time | 17:03 |
| toggles_w | :n | 17:04 |
| Jaffa | Anything else on Talk? | 17:04 |
| Jaffa | Otherwise we'll go onto the wrap-up & AOB | 17:04 |
| rsuplido | bergie brought up a nice tool that he has. i think it's a better solution. | 17:04 |
| Jaffa | ACTION: bergie to start a thread (probably on TMO ;-)) about the tool to see if there's scope for community involvement, rather than needing time within the paid budget? | 17:05 |
| Jaffa | ## | 17:06 |
| bergie | Jaffa: that is a possibility. Maybe reggie can start the thread and then I can provide some examples and pointers? | 17:06 |
| rsuplido | ok | 17:06 |
| Jaffa | bergie: Even better. ACTION: reggie for the above. | 17:06 |
| Jaffa | ## 4. Wrap-up & next steps (Jaffa) | 17:06 |
| * Jaffa will ask if anyone's got a better log than the one he has (hopefully from the bot ;-)) | 17:06 | |
| * Jaffa will produce a wiki page with actions and due dates | 17:06 | |
| * Jaffa will email it around | 17:06 | |
| * Jaffa will expect people to update & correct, otherwise it'll be accepted. | 17:07 | |
| Jaffa | There'll be discussion about community processes about the handover | 17:07 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, we should use the meeting bot, I thought it was enabled for this already, it was in previous meetings | 17:07 |
| rsuplido | +1 | 17:07 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: It should be, and it is here | 17:07 |
| Jaffa | There'll be a new council before the week is out, so I will do these tasks before then, and hopefully the new council will be able to come in with a clean handover & transition | 17:08 |
| lcuk | ok, then we need to update the meeting page http://maemo.org/maemo-meeting/ | 17:08 |
| lcuk | speaking of the Council | 17:08 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: X-Fade does that, AFAIK | 17:08 |
| Jaffa | So, those are the next steps. | 17:08 |
| Jaffa | ## | 17:08 |
| Jaffa | ### 5. AOB | 17:09 |
| Jaffa | Don't forget to vote! ;-) | 17:09 |
| lcuk | zehjotkah just upped the game, the Community council candidates have a new place to post! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYdRMBwjKfM | 17:09 |
| lcuk | he has done a declaration as a youtube video | 17:09 |
| Jaffa | Yeah, but other candidates actually came to the meeting and were involved in the prior discussion ;-p | 17:09 |
| rsuplido | nice! | 17:09 |
| Jaffa | Besides, you know how I like being videoed ;-) | 17:09 |
| lcuk | Jaffa, indeed, and zehjotkah looked comfortable also - its just another mechanism we can use | 17:10 |
| * Jaffa particularly thanks Andy80 and achipa for their attendance. | 17:10 | |
| lcuk | Jaffa, regarding council activities, it is noted that different members have their skills and abilities and I hope we get a good spread of people in this election! | 17:11 |
| Jaffa | Indeed. | 17:11 |
| dneary | I'm off guys | 17:11 |
| dneary | Thanks for the meeting! | 17:11 |
| Jaffa | As outgoing chair, I wish everyone good luck; and thank - on the record - the contributions of the current council. | 17:11 |
| Jaffa | Thanks dneary | 17:11 |
| lcuk | we should take every opportunity to pump it and get people voting - so in threads and twitter, direct people to the right place is important | 17:11 |
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| lcuk | +100000 Jaffa | 17:12 |
| rsuplido | thanks Jaffa | 17:12 |
| lcuk | the entire council has been cool this time | 17:12 |
| Jaffa | Anyway, thanks all and I'll go and find someone to write a blog post on the Council blog and for the maemo.org front page which we can use to pimp the election | 17:12 |
| Jaffa | Whilst I go and write-up some minutes | 17:13 |
| rsuplido | gtg. thanks *.* | 17:13 |
| ferenc | thanks, bye! | 17:13 |
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| Andy80 | Jaffa: thanks to you! | 17:14 |
| Andy80 | Jaffa: as I said at the beginning I was just a "listener" this time, there's still lot I've to learn about these meetings and how they works to be able to give a good contribute :) | 17:14 |
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| achipa | yeah, sorry, about my ramblings an in-out comments, being at work and all | 17:16 |
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| Andy80 | see ya next time, bye :) | 17:23 |
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