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| dneary | Hi! | 14:57 |
|---|---|---|
| tekojo | hello | 14:57 |
| X-Fade | hi | 14:57 |
| dneary | I'm running a little late - will be here in 10 mins or so | 14:58 |
| GAN900 | OK, who wants to take the reigns? | 15:00 |
| ferenc | Hello | 15:00 |
| GAN900 | OK, so, given that the direction for maemo.org has been decided for us | 15:03 |
| GAN900 | We needs to focus on whatever is best to provide long-term support for existing Maemo users | 15:04 |
| X-Fade | Agreed | 15:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | So, what tasks can we focus on to achieve that goal. | 15:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | (especially given limited resources) | 15:06 |
| dneary | Here now | 15:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Anybody have a link to the email Andrew mentioned? | 15:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think a lot of the Downloads stuff probably isn't going to be doable | 15:10 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles, Looking for it now | 15:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nor the Plante prettification/AJAX stuff. | 15:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/Plante/Planet/ | 15:10 |
| bergie | GeneralAntilles: we're trying to get most of the Planet stuff done still in July when we're in "regular project work" mode | 15:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, well, that's good to know. | 15:11 |
| bergie | quite a lot of groundwork for Downloads is already done, so it depends how much effort we can spend on it in July whether it is doable | 15:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Getting SSO finished up would be nice for a lot of reasons | 15:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not the least of which is making it not look like Nokia just jettisoned maemo.org out the airlock. | 15:12 |
| bergie | SSO is another thing we're putting efforts into this month. Depends a bit also on danielwilms and his schedule, though :-) | 15:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, hopefully that schedule can accommodate. | 15:13 |
| dneary | haven't found it, but I remember reading something from him | 15:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, me too. | 15:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Given we've got a limited amount of time left with people available to actually implement new features | 15:14 |
| danielwilms | bergie: can spend some time there...we need a tighter schedule for that... | 15:14 |
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| X-Fade | We need to be aware that holidays are coming up again. People tend to leave around the end of the month. | 15:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | SSO has dragged on for, what, about 6-8 months now? | 15:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, ah, yes, even better. | 15:14 |
| bergie | danielwilms: I guess chopping it up for smaller deliverables would help. SSO is a big elephant to eat :-) | 15:14 |
| bergie | GeneralAntilles: most of that time nothing happened because we were waiting for servers | 15:14 |
| danielwilms | bergie: agreed | 15:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, indeed, and I think this has been Andrew's point about the whole maemo.org development process for a while. ;) | 15:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, seems to be a recurring theme in anything Linux Nokia's involved in. . . . | 15:15 |
| bergie | well, AFAIK we now have the machines we need, so it is just up to execution | 15:15 |
| X-Fade | Problem with small tasks is that you need to micro-manage it. And we don't have enough people for that. | 15:15 |
| X-Fade | So one person is given a large task ;) | 15:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, well, given a reasonable point of moderation. | 15:16 |
| X-Fade | Which isn't always a great thing. | 15:16 |
| bergie | danielwilms: we're meeting with tekojo tomorrow. Maybe after that we could discuss SSO details a bit? | 15:16 |
| bergie | but chopping this to pieces like... | 15:17 |
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| bergie | 1) CAS and the user directory service up | 15:17 |
| danielwilms | bergie...yep...I'm in tomorrow | 15:17 |
| bergie | 2) Midgard talking with CAS | 15:17 |
| bergie | 3) MediaWiki talking with CAS | 15:17 |
| bergie | etc | 15:17 |
| dneary | X-Fade, you don't need to micro-manage small tasks | 15:17 |
| dneary | people canmicro-manage themselves | 15:17 |
| dneary | eg, for SSO, person gets assigned task "SSO - make it so, number one." | 15:18 |
| danielwilms | dneary: nice idea :D but seriously...a lot of tasks depend on each other...it is not that trivial | 15:19 |
| X-Fade | dneary: Isn't that what I just said? :) | 15:19 |
| dneary | And Ryker says "OK, I will install CAS, integrate it with our auth service for log-ins, install and enable CAS plug-in for service X, Y and Z" | 15:19 |
| dneary | X-Fade, So then people know where it's at - if CAS isn't installed, or if it's blocking on integrating with the LDAP, or whether the problem is CAS with MediaWiki, or whatever | 15:20 |
| dneary | X-Fade, You said "problem with small tasks is that you need to micro-manage it", and I'm disagreeing with you | 15:21 |
| dneary | Small tasks does not necessarily imply micro-management | 15:21 |
| X-Fade | We agree, please move on. | 15:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | So, Garage. | 15:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd like to see as much of the cruft cut down as possible. | 15:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd like to avoid having projects push a lot of new content to it. | 15:22 |
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| GeneralAntilles | There are better, more active, and more actively maintained tools out there for position it fills. | 15:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | and I don't think we have the time to invest in really maintaining it in the long term. | 15:22 |
| X-Fade | It would need to go to maintenance mode. Keep it running, but no new services? | 15:23 |
| bergie | GeneralAntilles: at the moment Garage is an absolute requirement, though after SSO (and maybe OBS?) some of the pieces that rely on Garage may be gone | 15:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, yeah, I understand. | 15:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | But as far as project content stuff | 15:23 |
| bergie | but regarding Garage I think it is best to ping ferenc :-) | 15:23 |
| ferenc | GeneralAntilles: time can always be arranged. | 15:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | ferenc, can it? | 15:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | and: do we really want to? | 15:24 |
| ferenc | GeneralAntilles: yes. we can not stop people opening new projects. | 15:24 |
| dneary | I think that retiring garage would be a good goal | 15:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, I'm agreed to a certain extent. | 15:24 |
| ferenc | unless we put big signs all over the place. | 15:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | However there's still activity in Garage | 15:24 |
| bergie | if we want to retire it there has to be a proper migration path to gitorious or whatever | 15:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Indeed | 15:24 |
| dneary | Having it soldier on looking dead would be a net negative for the project. | 15:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which is probably too large scale. | 15:24 |
| bergie | ferenc: stats... how many private projects there are on Garage? | 15:24 |
| ferenc | GA: yes, new projects are popping up every day. | 15:25 |
| dneary | bergie, Yes, I think that should be the top-level goal for garage | 15:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, the project is in a negative space these days anyway. ;) | 15:25 |
| X-Fade | Active projects: 1428 | 15:25 |
| ferenc | bergie: don't have the figure at hand, but can dig it out. | 15:25 |
| bergie | X-Fade: that is a big number... telling them to move out from Garage (and smoothing that path) would be a big deal | 15:26 |
| ferenc | bergie: 24, if my SQL query is right | 15:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Can we disable access to a lot of the tools for new projects? | 15:26 |
| X-Fade | We can disable project registration. | 15:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hopefully the bugzilla upgrade should make it much more feasible for it to replace Garage for tracking. | 15:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, mmmm | 15:27 |
| ferenc | X-Fade: 1499 public projects, not sure how many are active though | 15:27 |
| X-Fade | But then what ;) | 15:27 |
| bergie | GeneralAntilles: though, the effort needed to maintain Garage is relatively minor part of overall Maemo.org work we do | 15:27 |
| X-Fade | A separate task could be to shut down the garage bugtracker plugin. | 15:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, OK. | 15:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, but, as dneary says, a tumbleweed-filled section of the website reflects negatively on the project. | 15:28 |
| X-Fade | But that is an active task, so more work than letting it run. | 15:28 |
| bergie | X-Fade: bug tracker, wiki could probably be pointed towards wiki.maemo.org and bugzilla | 15:28 |
| bergie | GeneralAntilles: *any* open project hosting service will have tumbleweed. People open projects and later abandon them. You've heard of service called SourceForget? ;-) | 15:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, well, of course, but that's not my point. | 15:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | If there's no time to be put towards new development, and it's just collecting dust then it's just going to look bad. | 15:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Whether or not activity is taking place within the projects themselves. | 15:30 |
| bergie | but personally I'm neutral on what happens with that. I know if Garage is kept we can keep it running with ferenc. And if not, there are other hosting services projects can move to (with different degrees of migration pain) | 15:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's also an enthusiasm sink. | 15:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | I don't think it's desirable or feasible for maemo.org to be providing a lot of project management support in the long term. | 15:30 |
| X-Fade | How about splitting it into 2 tasks? | 15:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Realistically, most projects are going to shift their focus to MeeGo rather rapidly. | 15:31 |
| JimiDini | disabling project registration sounds like a good measure. | 15:31 |
| X-Fade | 1: Disable new project registration, redirect to gitorious or whatever. | 15:31 |
| bergie | GeneralAntilles: and MeeGo development happens on gitorious, right | 15:31 |
| X-Fade | 2: Try to encourage people to migrate services to better locations? | 15:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, I'm agreed with that. | 15:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | I can do the footwork on the migration encouragement if need be. | 15:32 |
| ferenc | hmm.. So we put a sign: People! Guess what? We are no longer maintaining this site, go away! :) | 15:32 |
| X-Fade | ferenc: Well we are maintaining it, but it is closed for new registrations of projects. | 15:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | ferenc, why lie to them? ;) | 15:32 |
| ferenc | I like garage, I think maemo gained a lots of good stuff through that service. And there are still a lot of importnat projects using it. | 15:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | ferenc, fair enough, but Maemo is dead. | 15:33 |
| ferenc | But of course we can scare away people and promote other sites, if that's the agreement ;) | 15:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | and only going to become more dead in the long term. | 15:33 |
| ferenc | Maemo is not dead and will not be for quite some time. | 15:33 |
| ferenc | GA: show me a MeeGo based Nxxx pls | 15:34 |
| ferenc | Or did I hide under my blanket in the last weeks? | 15:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | Whether we wish to agree with it, Quim's right when he says most people will have moved on by the end of the year. | 15:35 |
| ferenc | We are here to discuss how to support tablet and N900 users and developers in the long run. | 15:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Given that there'll be no more commercial support for N900. | 15:35 |
| X-Fade | Realistically Maemo needs to be the alive and exciting place at least until the first devices with MeeGo are in store. | 15:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | and given the reasonably high degree of forwards compatibility with MeeGo using Qt. | 15:35 |
| bergie | GeneralAntilles: people will move when they have a MeeGo device in their hands | 15:35 |
| X-Fade | As there is no alternative until then for users. | 15:35 |
| dneary | ferenc, Phone & tablet users (purely users) are very much at the trailing edge of where we are | 15:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, the enthusiasm has already mostly gone away. | 15:35 |
| dneary | Developers is where it's at - that's our audience | 15:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | But, yes, it's probably a longer-term disussion. | 15:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | and one we shouldn't be making any final decisions on here. | 15:37 |
| ferenc | dneary: and that is why we should not close garage. | 15:37 |
| dneary | ferenc, But, as GA and qgil have said, developers will be interested in MeeGo after the June release | 15:37 |
| dneary | And I agree | 15:38 |
| X-Fade | dneary: I think that is a bit optimistic, but ok :) | 15:38 |
| dneary | It makes no more sense to try to attract developers to Maemo 5 now than it does to attract developers to build GTK+ 1.2 apps for Red Hat Enterprise 3 | 15:38 |
| dneary | That doesn't mean RHEL 3 has gone away | 15:38 |
| bergie | dneary: not necessarily... not all developers ditched Gtk+ after the Maemo Qt migration was announced for instance. People like working with the tools they know | 15:39 |
| dneary | Or that GTK+ 1.2 apps have gone away | 15:39 |
| X-Fade | dneary: Developing for Maemo 5 is perfectly fine. | 15:39 |
| ferenc | dneary: we don't have to attract them. let's just leave the shop open, that is. | 15:39 |
| X-Fade | As long as we encourage Qt4.6 use. | 15:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, whether or not these developers shift their focus, what are they going to be better served by for project management? | 15:39 |
| X-Fade | Really the next six month or so we really want to keep the developers, not turn them away. | 15:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | A site that's going into maintenance mode and wont ever see new features? | 15:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Or a site that's growing every day? | 15:40 |
| dneary | Let's move on to looking at the suggestions for packages and downloads | 15:40 |
| ferenc | dneary: I would rather look into opportunities by reaching this 1499 project at garage... | 15:40 |
| bergie | optimally the project management service doesn't matter, as long as when you tag a release it gets built for anything between Maemo5 and MeeGo | 15:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, well, let's look at how we can do that. | 15:40 |
| dneary | ferenc, I would ask what the metric for being active is | 15:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | Getting all of the official documentation cleaned up and accessible would be a good one. | 15:40 |
| ferenc | dneary: easy to check subversion or git repositories and the mailing list traffic.. | 15:41 |
| dneary | ferenc, Are you saying that there are 1499 projects with regular email on their mailing lists & regular commits in svn/git? | 15:41 |
| dneary | (I just want to understand) | 15:41 |
| bergie | anyway, seems we shouldn't try to reach consensus on Garage right now. Better to wait-and-see, and ensure in the meanwhile Garage doesn't eat too many maintenance hours | 15:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | bergie, agreed. | 15:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Let's pick up a discussion on the lists later. | 15:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK, what else do we want to hit? | 15:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Got about 5 minutes until I have to leave for work. | 15:42 |
| ferenc | dneary: no. 1499 is the number of public projects. but let's switch topic... | 15:42 |
| bergie | Packages and Downloads? | 15:43 |
| bergie | now the two have lots of overlap, so we'd like to kill the separate Downloads system and just add a bit more consumer-friendly face for browsing Packages | 15:43 |
| bergie | the OCS API the Maemo app installer app uses was already moved to talk with packages directly | 15:43 |
| bergie | the other thing about packages would be to see if we can hook that up to the community OBS that seems to be coming up | 15:44 |
| bergie | so you could run the same QA processes for both Maemo and MeeGo apps | 15:44 |
| bergie | ...and have the same APIs, upload and promotion tools etc | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | I'm working on the community OBS and the results look promising, so I think we can offer OBS for Maemo too. | 15:45 |
| X-Fade | This would make the migration path to MeeGo a lot easier. | 15:45 |
| bergie | X-Fade: and interfacing between packages and that? | 15:45 |
| dneary | ferenc, Thanks for fixing search, by the way | 15:46 |
| X-Fade | Yes. | 15:46 |
| bergie | OBS has a REST API after all | 15:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | OK, I'm out. | 15:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, care to take the wheel? | 15:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Will be back in about 15 minutes. | 15:46 |
| X-Fade | Needs some investigation still, but looks doable. | 15:46 |
| dneary | OK | 15:46 |
| ferenc | dneary: let's test 1st on internal and push it to live. wiki can be also integrated then. | 15:46 |
| dneary | X-Fade, How would the workflow look like for an application developer, and for a user wanting to download? | 15:47 |
| dneary | ferenc, I don't have access to internal | 15:47 |
| X-Fade | dneary: That still needs to determined. | 15:47 |
| X-Fade | dneary: Developer can upload just like now, or with webinterface or with obs directly. | 15:47 |
| X-Fade | user will just use download client like he does now. | 15:48 |
| dneary | X-Fade, So you don't know whether you're going to migrate h-a-m to use OBS directly? | 15:48 |
| X-Fade | dneary: huh? | 15:48 |
| X-Fade | Those are not related ;) | 15:48 |
| ferenc | dneary: if you have ssh access to test.maemo.org then you have HTTP(s) access to internal too. I will explain it in an email. | 15:48 |
| X-Fade | HAM fetches from a repo. OBS creates a repo. | 15:48 |
| dneary | ferenc, Thanks. | 15:48 |
| dneary | OK - and OBS can create a debian repo? | 15:49 |
| bergie | ...and Packages manages moving packages between repos :-) | 15:49 |
| bergie | dneary: yes | 15:49 |
| X-Fade | OBS will basically replace the autobuilder. | 15:49 |
| dneary | Cool | 15:49 |
| dneary | How does the extras-testing process fit in? | 15:49 |
| bergie | dneary: see for instance http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/home:/midgardproject:/ratatoskr/xUbuntu_10.04/ | 15:49 |
| X-Fade | Repository management can be done trough multiple interfaces. | 15:49 |
| dneary | Or is the plan to do away with extras-testing & promotion? | 15:49 |
| X-Fade | But basically for developers nothing has to change, unless they want to go more hardcore. | 15:50 |
| bergie | I'd argue for keeping (and refining) the extras-testing process, and trying to push it for MeeGo community apps too | 15:50 |
| X-Fade | OBS is just a build too. | 15:50 |
| X-Fade | tool. | 15:50 |
| X-Fade | Not a process. | 15:50 |
| X-Fade | We can let it do some automated QA, but that is besides the point. | 15:51 |
| bergie | even though sometimes apps spend too much time in testing queue, the end result is that Maemo Downloads apps are pretty good :-) | 15:51 |
| X-Fade | For Maemo post-PR1.2 we might look at OBS to replace autobuilder. | 15:52 |
| X-Fade | And for Harmattan it might be the default. | 15:52 |
| bergie | +1 X-Fade | 15:52 |
| bergie | since OBS will be maintained anyway, better to use that for everything | 15:52 |
| dneary | And using OBS won't change anything around package QA & promotion? | 15:52 |
| dneary | (or should I say, it doesn't have to) | 15:52 |
| X-Fade | QA processes and testing process will just stay the way it works now, although that can be refined of course. | 15:52 |
| dneary | I think they should be made lighter, but then that's me. | 15:53 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, OBS can help maintain consistency in the repo. | 15:53 |
| X-Fade | Which is a part of QA, but there it is only a tool. | 15:53 |
| X-Fade | The promotion and QA part is mostly a human process, which uses some tools/interfaces. | 15:55 |
| dneary | So - to summarise, what are the top-level 6 month goals for packages & downloads? | 15:55 |
| bergie | 1) switch from autobuilder to OBS | 15:55 |
| bergie | 2) move Downloads web interface on top of Packages | 15:56 |
| bergie | 3) get the Maemo app installer out there? | 15:56 |
| danielwilms | 3) yes ;) | 15:56 |
| X-Fade | We have prepared a lot of APIs for the appdownloader to be able to let users do testing on device. | 15:57 |
| X-Fade | With rating and comments and thumbing. | 15:57 |
| bergie | ...and supporting the OCS API for all repos, not just extras | 15:57 |
| X-Fade | This will make it a lot easier to test apps and open it up for more people. | 15:57 |
| bergie | 4) publish Packages OCS API docs so others can use them too | 15:57 |
| dneary | Also - please bear in mind suggestions & ideas from http://wiki.maemo.org/Brainstorm_2010/Downloads and http://wiki.maemo.org/Brainstorm_2010/Packages | 15:57 |
| dneary | (for downloads discussion: | 15:58 |
| dneary | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=664691 | 15:58 |
| dneary | For downloads, integrating user donations to developers, is that something you think should be included? | 15:59 |
| bergie | donations is doable, but probably not before something like late July timeframe | 15:59 |
| bergie | needs some design first | 15:59 |
| dneary | This is a 6 month agenda, not a 1 month agenda | 15:59 |
| bergie | so yeah, I'm +1 for donations | 15:59 |
| bergie | especially *if* developer focus starts to shift to MeeGo... end users with N900 may be tempted to bribe devs to keep them interested in maintaining apps for Maemo 5 as well ;-) | 16:00 |
| X-Fade | As long as donations is not related to doing payment on our end, I'm fine with it ;) | 16:00 |
| bergie | it could be paypal or whatever | 16:01 |
| X-Fade | As long as it is just linking or whatever, it should be doable. | 16:01 |
| dneary | OK. Let's put those as top priorities - for each of them, I'd like to see some break-down of what needs to be done for them, so that we can see where they stand (and possibly help out more easily) | 16:01 |
| bergie | how about the idea of having "application lists" or "application baskets" | 16:01 |
| dneary | Paypal or Google Checkout are easiest | 16:01 |
| dneary | Checkout is easier for non-profits | 16:01 |
| dneary | s/easier/cheaper | 16:01 |
| danielwilms | bergie the basket could be realized on top of the client | 16:02 |
| bergie | danielwilms: yep, but I was thinking in line of Amazon's book lists... being able to recommend a set of applications | 16:02 |
| dneary | bergie, Definitely a second-level priority for me | 16:02 |
| bergie | dneary: sure, but it'd be cool :-) | 16:02 |
| dneary | A nice feature, takes care of a major annoyance, but seems like a smaller benefit than other stuff | 16:02 |
| dneary | Moving on, Bugzilla & Wiki? | 16:03 |
| dneary | http://wiki.maemo.org/Brainstorm_2010/Wiki and | 16:04 |
| dneary | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=664704 | 16:04 |
| dneary | Gah - lag on keyboard | 16:04 |
| dneary | andre__, There have been one or two Bugzilla suggestions in other threads too | 16:04 |
| andre__ | yes. | 16:05 |
| dneary | I saw one suggestion to have new versions added in Bugzilla when there''s new releases (at least, that's what I think it was asking for) | 16:07 |
| dneary | But I can't find it now | 16:07 |
| dneary | andre__, Can I assume your only top-level priority for the coming months is "upgrade to 3.4"? | 16:07 |
| GAN900 | OK, PR1.2 ensures I've missed the last 15 minutes. | 16:07 |
| andre__ | dneary, that's actually what Karsten is working on. | 16:07 |
| tekojo | sorry guys, I need to rush. the wiki and danielwilms will fill me in on the rest | 16:08 |
| dneary | So - the floor is yours | 16:08 |
| *** tekojo has quit IRC | 16:08 | |
| dneary | andre__, So - the floor is yours. What did you get out of the discussion on Talk? | 16:08 |
| andre__ | ah, I was expected to track it closely? heh :) | 16:09 |
| andre__ | well, basically nothing new that I don't want to see either. | 16:10 |
| andre__ | after 3.4 is in place. | 16:10 |
| andre__ | don't know what to comment on it, though. | 16:10 |
| X-Fade | How much time does karsten have to work on it? | 16:11 |
| X-Fade | As I don't see him online nor on the servers working on it. | 16:11 |
| andre__ | I think currently it's 10hrs/week but I might be wrong | 16:11 |
| andre__ | let me check | 16:11 |
| GAN900 | Nothing new that I noticed | 16:11 |
| bergie | I'll be away for 5mins | 16:11 |
| GAN900 | I asked him to put up a VCS and toss us a progress blog last week or the week before | 16:12 |
| dneary | hi GAN900 | 16:13 |
| andre__ | yes, and I asked Karsten to use qaiku more often. | 16:13 |
| dneary | GAN900, We went through downloads & Packages | 16:14 |
| dneary | GAN900, The short version is: migrate autobuilder to OBS to align with MeeGo, move downloads interface on top of Packages, get the Maemo app installer out there (whatever that is), and allow donations to developers of individual applications through Downloads interface | 16:15 |
| dneary | We've moved on to Bugzilla & Wiki, BZ first, and Andre's catching up with the BZ brainstorm talk thread | 16:16 |
| dneary | And you're all caught up | 16:16 |
| dneary | Oh - and Tero had to leave | 16:17 |
| dneary | Ping? Is my internet OK? | 16:17 |
| X-Fade | yep | 16:17 |
| dneary | OK | 16:19 |
| dneary | So people are just gone quiet then :) | 16:19 |
| bergie | back | 16:19 |
| dneary | andre__, So - leaving aside the discussion and the upgrade to 3.4, what is your top level goal for the half? | 16:19 |
| andre__ | right now trying to triage all those incoming PR1.2 bug reports, getting an idea what Nokia plans with a Meego Bugtracker, a Maemo bugtracker, an internal bugtracker, a Qt bugtracker, act accordingly? :) | 16:21 |
| andre__ | I don't know where we are in half a year. meego etc situation when it comes to bugtracking is to unclear to me | 16:22 |
| bergie | andre__: I can imagine that'll be especially interesting with Harmattan :-) | 16:23 |
| dneary | andre__, Do you think the QT bug tracker might eventually get merged somewhere else? | 16:24 |
| dneary | Like say as a product in Meego? | 16:24 |
| andre__ | No idea... Please ask Nokia (*if* they have plans && *if* they tell you about their plans)? :) | 16:25 |
| dneary | That's helpful | 16:26 |
| bergie | well, in any case Maemo probably has to be supported by Nokia for quite a while still, and so it needs a bug tracker | 16:26 |
| dneary | For the wiki | 16:27 |
| dneary | #1 request: label pages with the version to which they apply, and sort out the mess with docs for old versions | 16:27 |
| dneary | Documentation has evolved, and the docs for Maemo 3, 4, 5 for something like Python bindings are in 3 different places | 16:28 |
| dneary | To be holest my plan was not to touch legacy documentation | 16:28 |
| dneary | But it seems there is a demand for the legacy docs to be tidied away nicely & correctly labelled | 16:29 |
| dneary | I don't quite know how to get that done for the (closed) Maemo 3 & 4 PDF documentation | 16:29 |
| dneary | The only other request I got is to get search fixed | 16:30 |
| dneary | Which ferenc is taking care of | 16:30 |
| dneary | Anyone have anything further to add here? | 16:31 |
| X-Fade | Nop | 16:32 |
| dneary | Say, add some kin d of infrastructure to allow easy wikisation of Talk posts? | 16:32 |
| danielwilms | dneary, the legacy docs is a tough one...maybe just link from a page to all the information for each release, similar to fremantle in wiki.m.o/Documentation | 16:32 |
| X-Fade | Isn't that taking it one step too far? | 16:32 |
| dneary | Or a custom module for the wiki to tell people when they link to a page that there are other similarly named pages that exist? | 16:32 |
| dneary | Aside from that, docs energy appears to have all moved over to MeeGo already | 16:32 |
| dneary | And Maemo 5 docs are being done by Lionsbridge | 16:33 |
| dneary | danielwilms, The feedback I've seen is that most people find the docs through search, and the search doesn't bring them trough the Documentation page | 16:33 |
| bergie | yep, generally people search instead of browsing | 16:35 |
| danielwilms | dneary: yep...but as you said...these are all pdfs and it is almost impossible to change something about it...and I don't think that we have to expect many new users there | 16:36 |
| dneary | danielwilms, The PDFs aren't very well indexed by Google, so that's mostly OK :) | 16:37 |
| dneary | OK - so: | 16:37 |
| bergie | URL could be a good way of telling what Maemo version they're about | 16:37 |
| dneary | #1: Categorise docs in wiki according to version (and have this documented in wiki guidelines) | 16:37 |
| dneary | #2: Work out how to make it easy to move Talk content to the wiki | 16:38 |
| dneary | #3: Iron out issues related to search & duplicate pages in wiki | 16:38 |
| dneary | Moving on: GAN900, want to take over? | 16:40 |
| dneary | Planet, news & talk | 16:40 |
| dneary | Lumping all in together | 16:40 |
| dneary | Actually - just an aside for a sec | 16:41 |
| dneary | It seems like no-one from outside council or staff is here | 16:41 |
| dneary | There are a few people here, but we haven't heard from them yet | 16:41 |
| bergie | that is quite typical from the Sprint meetings we used to have, too | 16:41 |
| dneary | Is the meeting routine locking you out, you people? | 16:41 |
| dneary | bergie, And this is one of our problems | 16:42 |
| X-Fade | dneary: Next time plan this at 10am. | 16:42 |
| X-Fade | That way .fi isn't at home already. | 16:42 |
| bergie | well, the Brainstorm TMO threads at least had some comments from outside | 16:42 |
| dneary | X-Fade, Which time-zone? | 16:42 |
| X-Fade | dneary: eu, doesn't matter that much. | 16:42 |
| X-Fade | As long as it is morning in europe. | 16:43 |
| dneary | I asked if maybe Tero and/or Quim could organise the time of this meeting to ensire they were here & active | 16:43 |
| dneary | It just feels like we're not getting anywhere | 16:43 |
| X-Fade | It is almost 17 in finland. It shuts down at 16 most of the time ;) | 16:44 |
| bergie | dneary: we made some decisions, isn't that something? | 16:44 |
| dneary | Ok - I'm going to take the main proposals from this meeting (for Garage, I will need someone to try to summarise anything which might pass for a decision) and send this around to mailing lists & talk | 16:44 |
| bergie | dneary: Garage decision was to wait and see | 16:45 |
| dneary | X-Fade, And yet no-one said anything about the time | 16:45 |
| bergie | ...but to remove any unnecessary cruft from it | 16:45 |
| dneary | X-Fade, And also, EU AM is US dodo time | 16:45 |
| dneary | We don't have a lot of Asian contributors, but we have quite a few American ones | 16:45 |
| X-Fade | Only the general typically. | 16:46 |
| bergie | anyway, shall we continue with the agenda? as said, it is nearing 5pm here | 16:47 |
| bergie | ...and I have still lots to do | 16:47 |
| dneary | OK | 16:48 |
| dneary | News, planet, talk (lumping them in) | 16:48 |
| bergie | yep | 16:48 |
| bergie | so... we're adding blog comments to Planet | 16:48 |
| bergie | another thing I'd like to do is make social news talk Twitter, so we would get more "external karma" | 16:49 |
| dneary | http://wiki.maemo.org/Brainstorm_2010/News_and_Planet | 16:49 |
| dneary | http://wiki.maemo.org/Brainstorm_2010/Talk_and_mailing_lists | 16:50 |
| bergie | also, probably try to move MeeGo-related feeds over to Planet MeeGo | 16:50 |
| bergie | anything else? | 16:53 |
| X-Fade | I guess not. | 16:55 |
| dneary | There were a few other suggestions, of course | 16:55 |
| dneary | On those wiki pages | 16:55 |
| dneary | Restructuring forums to make it easier to browse by version | 16:56 |
| dneary | Retire karma | 16:56 |
| dneary | SSO | 16:56 |
| dneary | (for talk) | 16:56 |
| dneary | Allow thread creatirs to change their thread subject lines | 16:57 |
| dneary | Get mail to forum bridge working properly, for everyone | 16:57 |
| dneary | RSS feeds per thread, and per forum, | 16:58 |
| dneary | For news, planet & mailing lists there were basically no suggestions | 16:59 |
| dneary | Community workings | 16:59 |
| dneary | New topic | 16:59 |
| dneary | Since it appears that we've out-timezoned anyone to do with the forum | 17:00 |
| dneary | Is anyone still awake? | 17:01 |
| dneary | Or should we call this a day? | 17:01 |
| dneary | 17:01 | |
| X-Fade | Sure, awake here. But nothing to add to forum discussions. | 17:01 |
| bergie | I guess we have an ok set of decisions for now | 17:01 |
| dneary | "Community workings" -> what isn't working about the way we work, and how to fix it | 17:01 |
| dneary | A rich topic, with lots to say, and a hard one to resolve | 17:01 |
| danielwilms | bergie +1 | 17:01 |
| X-Fade | dneary: Plan a meeting separately for that topic? | 17:02 |
| dneary | Sure, but who'd turn up? ;) | 17:02 |
| X-Fade | No idea, but really reached our max time today. | 17:02 |
| dneary | Yeah | 17:03 |
| dneary | I have something else on in a few minutes, need to prepare | 17:03 |
| dneary | X-Fade, By the way, you never sent that email you promised to re Jarmo & docs tools | 17:04 |
| dneary | X-Fade, I guess the moment has passed now, but I would have appreciated it | 17:04 |
| dneary | I agree we've reached our max, people seem fatigued | 17:05 |
| danielwilms | Ok...let's close it then...thanks to all, and bergie see you tomorrow | 17:05 |
| bergie | yep, thanks! | 17:06 |
| X-Fade | dneary: Sorry about that, really doing 20 things at the same time. | 17:06 |
| bergie | oh, a final remark: how about removing the "beta" label from maemo.org once SSO goes live? | 17:06 |
| dneary | bergie, I don't mind | 17:08 |
| dneary | I didn't mind when you proposed it 6 months ago :) | 17:08 |
| bergie | calling it "beta" isn't honest if we're starting to move it to maintenance mode :-) | 17:09 |
| ferenc | thanks. bye. | 17:14 |
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| GAN900 | Thanks guys | 17:14 |
| GAN900 | X-Fade, definitely wont be making a 6 AM meeting. ;) | 17:15 |
| X-Fade | GAN900: Well, we can negotiate the exact time. | 17:15 |
| GAN900 | But as I was only here for a little but of the time for an 8 AM I guess it doesn't | 17:15 |
| GAN900 | matter. | 17:16 |
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