IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2019-08-01

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* FatPhil hovers over the 'buy now' button...
KotCzarnykinda expensive12:24
FatPhildoes anyone have a spare TV-out cable. None of the ones that I've acquired have had theirs.12:24
KotCzarnyfatphil: any av cable will work12:24
KotCzarnyin the worst you will have to swap red/yellow cinch plugs12:24
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FatPhilIt's not cheap, but the last one I bought was 50e, and that was about 4 years ago.12:25
KotCzarnyin .pl you can get almost-unused condition for that price12:25
bencohKotCzarny: that's not really the case in the rest of the world12:26
bencohFatPhil: that sounds like a good deal I'd say12:26
KotCzarnyshall i start snagging them for #maemo folks?12:26
KotCzarnyoh, wow, nokia n-gage (original one) for ~170usd12:28
FatPhilI'm very tempted. I will look at my stash of spare parts, and work out how many "whole" ones I have now. g/f will need replacing in about 2-3 years. I hope this new one will last 5, and I know I have at least one whole spare, so it's not a problem for another 5-7 years.12:28
bencohKotCzarny: I guess some think of it as a collectable now a days12:28
KotCzarnyquite nice condition tho, almost new12:29
FatPhilSome of the really old ones do seem to have a retro cult following, and prices that match12:29
FatPhil7110for 255e (the slide mouthpiece, oversized screen (for the day) and WAP) here12:31
FatPhilKotCzarny: what are BL-5J prices like in .pl? All of ours have turned to pillows.12:32
KotCzarnybatteries are usually bought from china anyway12:33
KotCzarnyso you might refer to:12:33
KotCzarnydrat. bot missing again12:33
bencohinf^I^I damnbot :)12:33
FatPhilI did pick up a few cheap clone batteries, but they didn't last very long. Probably better VFM than the real ones, as the price difference was 5:1.12:34
KotCzarnymany folks here bought polarcell brand and i havent seen any complaints, only positives12:34
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FatPhiloooh, /me reads
KotCzarnyyou should check dual 18650 mod for n900 too12:36
KotCzarny5200mAh baby, lasts for weeks ;)12:36
KotCzarnymore if you can source good 1865012:39
FatPhil"OMG it looks like a bomb made to detonate if you place a call..." :-D12:42
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FatPhilI think i discovered a bug the other day. My old back lost the little metal part - I think it contained a magnet for the Hall sensor which should tell the system to unmount the uSD card.12:47
FatPhilbut my card was mounted anyway, even without the magnet.12:48
KotCzarnysensor might be dead too12:48
KotCzarnyor simply something prevented card from umount12:49
KotCzarnymaybe swap?12:49
FatPhilthat's mostly from rusty memory, but I think it's correct. Alas there's not enough logging options available in stock code.12:49
KotCzarnyit's hackable shell script12:51
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* FatPhil likes scripts. if your script isn't fast enough, optimise the interpreter/pcode runner, and magically you've made all scripts faster!12:59
FatPhil(assuming step 0 - ensure yor script isn't braindead in the first place)13:00
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Maxdamantus21:49:10 < KotCzarny> or simply something prevented card from umount13:38
MaxdamantusVery unlikely to be software at least.13:38
Maxdamantussince the mmc driver itself just disables access based on the sensor.13:38
Maxdamantusno usage checking or anything.13:39
KotCzarnydoes it? i always thought it's just a gpio for os to trigger some actions13:40
MaxdamantusIt does. Unless you modify the omap_hsmmc driver, it's basically impossible to maintain access to the card.13:40
KotCzarnydoes it at least finish pending writes?13:41
MaxdamantusProbably not, depending on what you mean by "pending writes"13:41
KotCzarnythe writes that went from os into driver13:42
MaxdamantusDon't think so.13:42
MaxdamantusSo it just sets that `protect_card` flag, which causes any requests to fail.13:47
MaxdamantusI think I remember ke-recv or something also responding to it in userspace, but ultimately the card is blocked in the kernel anyway at that point.13:49
Maxdamantusso it might be able to additionally force unmount it, but it can't do a clean unmount.13:50
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KotCzarnyit should try to umount card with 1-2s timer before block13:52
KotCzarnyand signal with flashing red led while doing so13:52
KotCzarnythat would be the best course of action13:53
MaxdamantusI imagine the feature is pretty much completely pointless anyway.13:53
KotCzarnynah, it has it's uses13:53
Maxdamantusafaict, the driver is able to reset the state of the controller anyway.13:54
KotCzarnyyeah, but you lose data13:54
Maxdamantusso the only thing I can see it being useful for is allowing the memory card itself to try and persist its writes to non-volatile storage before it loses power, but the stuff in the card's memory is only one part of the chain.13:54
KotCzarnywith umount and visual notification for the user it allows for safe eject13:54
MaxdamantusSure, I'm not arguing against a safe unmount. I'm arguing against a driver-level block of the card.13:55
Maxdamantusbecause there's no point in time where it makes sense to prevent an unsafe unmount.13:55
Maxdamantusif the card is still physically in the slot, why not give it some further chance to unmount?13:56
MaxdamantusPersonally, I don't even really like the automatic unmounting functionality. I basically never take my card out anyway.13:56
Maxdamantus(and I have swap on my card)13:57
KotCzarnyyou dont know how fast user ejects, or if he/she just wants to blow the dust off13:57
FatPhilbut I bet you don't take the back off often either13:57
Maxdamantus(my device doesn't unmount when I take the back cover off; I did that modification to the driver as mentioned in the TMO post, and I might have done something with the mount to make it not automatically unmount, can't remember)13:57
FatPhilhas that propagated to the power kernel? might that be why the hall sensor did nothing?13:58
KotCzarnythe only time when i take the back off is when i change battery or clean the insides13:58
KotCzarnynah, it's his personal modification13:58
Maxdamantuser, no point in time where it makes sense to prevent a safe unmount*14:04
FatPhilat no point does it make sense to prevent an atomic write, alas it's the non-atomic ones that are the problem.14:11
FatPhilbut at that point, you're trying to prevent the user from harming himself when he does something a bit dumb. perhaps training him not to be dumb is better.14:12
sixwheeledbeastsearch "wannasee electronic" re: polarcell bl5j14:12
FatPhilsync on cover removal seems more sensible than do nothing on cover removal14:13
FatPhilsixwheeledbeast: someone here's claiming to have real nokias for that price14:13
sixwheeledbeast"real" ones have less capacity14:13
FatPhilwhich comes as a surprise, they used to be ~35 here14:14
FatPhilreal ones are sometimes sanyo, and sometimes samsung, so not guaranteed to be completely equal.14:14
FatPhil(and probably other OEMs, I've not peeled the labels off many)14:15
sixwheeledbeastpolarcell are a good source of new batteries. I can't imagine Nokia make them any more and while they have 10 year shelf life I would prefer to promote the slightly higher capacity still manufactured product14:19
bencohoh and, finding real nokias can be a pain anyway14:38
bencohI first bought two "genuine" batteries for my n900, I never managed to charge them over ~800mAh14:39
bencohthen moved to polarcell14:39
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Maxdamantus23:11:08 < FatPhil> at no point does it make sense to prevent an atomic write, alas it's the non-atomic ones that are the problem.14:59
MaxdamantusNo hardware guarantees collections of writes to be atomic though afaik14:59
Maxdamantusto the extent that any hardware guarantees atomicity of writes, it's basically just writes of sectors on the device.15:00
Maxdamantusthe primitives you normally have to work with is basically just that (blocks are written atomically), and you usually also have some way of knowing that writes up until a particular point in time have been persisted on the device.15:01
Maxdamantus(the latter is basically the hardware version of fsync)15:02
FatPhilanyone got any cranky funky old browser on their phone, and wanna help my webpage be maximally readable?15:07
KotCzarnyinstall netscape navigator 3.x15:09
KotCzarnyand have fun15:09
siceloFatPhil: you have MicroB .. old enough :)15:09
KotCzarnysicelo: you havent seen old unless you've seen nn315:10
KotCzarny(there are older, but i've spent lots of time with nn)15:10
FatPhilI would like arrows rather than +/=/- signs in the change indicators here:
KotCzarnyuse utf?15:11
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FatPhilat the moment that's a mess, it has both the unicode arrows and the ascii.15:11
FatPhilif arrows work everywhere (not just rendered, but rendered and readable and meaningful) then I'll ditch the +/=/-. Works on w3m (pc) and lynx (n900)15:12
KotCzarnyi've found to not bother15:13
KotCzarnyif you want them to work everywhere, use buttons with images and proper alts15:13
FatPhilI do like the pointing arrow (or triangle) motif in such contexts.15:14
brolin_empeyKotCzarny: Netscape Navigator 3.x is not released for GNU+Linux on ARM.  Note the “on their phone” part of the question asked by FatPhil.  Yes, a desktop computer can be used as a telephone too but I think “phone” as used by FatPhil in this case means a handheld computer.15:14
FatPhilI'd like to avoid images, if possible (even data url ones)15:14
FatPhiloh, if you've got an ancient cranky pc browser, feel free to try on that too.15:15
FatPhilI reckon that if lynx copes, everything will, but I might be wrong.15:15
FatPhilit totally screws up links!15:16
FatPhilthe browser /links/, that is15:16
KotCzarnylinks need proper terminal and settings15:16
KotCzarnyand if you used any js you need elinks15:17
FatPhilFriends don't let friends do any JS ;-)15:18
brolin_empeyKotCzarny: The oldest Web browser is from 1990 because it is the original Web browser.15:19
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sixwheeledbeastsingle arrows would be clearer than double15:24
sixwheeledbeastcss arrows would be better15:32
sixwheeledbeastsymbol and number together probably makes it look too busy15:34
FatPhilgood suggestion. I've tweaked the generator to make swapping in new =+- triplets trivial, I'll try single arrows and triangles, as I've seen triangles a lot15:40
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sixwheeledbeastFatPhil: was imagining this re arrows16:02
FatPhillooks great in a graphical browser, but my g/f will be using lynx on her n900, and the arrows don't come out at all, some alt text might help, I'll add some.16:10
sixwheeledbeastI am surprised it's pretty basic css, alt text could be + - = I suppose16:12
FatPhilI'll get a blind mate to send her screenreader over some of the alternatives too. I want up and down semantics.16:12
sixwheeledbeastoh I forgot lynx is text only16:14
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FatPhilit maps lots of unicode things onto plain old text, and this is the best of the batch so far:
sixwheeledbeastmuch better than before16:40
FatPhilThanks for the feedback. I already sent that one to my accesibility hit-squad for their opinion on it. Nothing else coped on the n900 apart from that.16:42
sixwheeledbeast▬ for none movers?16:43
FatPhilblank says everything that absolutely needs to be said!16:43
FatPhilnow trying n900 ssh to home PCs, and w3m/elinks, as that's something I quite often seem to do...16:44
sixwheeledbeasti suppose16:45
FatPhilIt's incredible how many weird platform users I know. I have 3 other IRC channels I'll now go and pester with the same question. I'm sure someone will tell me it's terrible in BeOS or OS/2 Warp!16:51
FatPhilas n900 users (or at least fans) I gave you priority :)16:51
bencohpriority for?16:53
brolin_empeyBeOS and OS/2 are operating systems, not Web browsers.16:58
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sunshaviFatPhil: I have w3m running on maemo and also within emacs23 on maemo17:12
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DocScrutinizer05oldest web app, thought that was Mozaic17:14
bencohMosaic was preceded by WorldWideWeb, the lesser-known Erwise[6] and ViolaWWW.17:16
bencohwell :)17:16
DocScrutinizer05>>The first web browser, called WorldWideWeb, was created in 1990 by Sir Tim Berners-Lee.[5]<<17:18
Elleo <-- you can play with an emulation of that here17:18
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FatPhilbencoh: for being guineapigs who are likely to have weird browsing capabilities!18:01
bencohhow thoughtful! we really appreciate it :)18:03
FatPhilbrolin_empey: occasionally, OSes ship with browsers. They even get taken to court for doing this, if they do it with too much lock-in.18:03
FatPhilcriminey - the .ee auction site has one of these on sale for 120e - I've (fortunately) never seen it before: . I think I've just thrown up a little in my mouth.18:04
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bencohwtf o.O18:09
KotCzarnybencoh, lol, you seriously never seen it before?18:10
bencohI don't think I had until now18:13
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FatPhilwe humans are blessed with something called "selective amnesia" - tomorrow you will have purged it from your memory.18:25
FatPhilor at least I hope I will have18:25
sicelohah, i also never saw that 7280 in person, although i've seen the pics.18:31
siceloxes: in page, , clicking Next Page or a specific number page results in "connection time out" - this happens for the other category pages as well.18:33
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sicelook, scratch that ... if i'm on a socks5 proxy it works. so i guess problem is in my network (no idea how/why)19:43
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bencohlooks like we have another garage/builder issue though ... I pushed a packet a few days ago and forgot about it, but it doesn't show up19:53
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KotCzarnysicelo: maybe your operator drops some known packets?20:29
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siceloi think the network is just not stable. actually even with the socks proxy, that page is still very slow - so there is some problem on the site iteself20:31
KotCzarnyis it only one particular site?20:33
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* DocScrutinizer05 muses about a new law yet to get implemented, that makes code publish mandatory after 7 years no matter what the code for20:55
siceloKotCzarny: well i do have odd issues from time to time with different websites, including google sites.20:56
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siceloKotCzarny: does this work well for you?
KotCzarnyit asks for login21:21
KotCzarnywhich i apparently forgotten21:21
siceloalright. it's one of the pages which don't seem to be working OK.21:22
sicelooh, plain HTTP seems to be working21:23
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