# IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2019-03-08

DocScrutinizer05 DocScrutinizer05 DocScrutinizer05 *** Enrico_M_RX-51 has joined #maemo 00:15 *** Pali has quit IRC 00:24 *** eMHa_ has quit IRC 00:38 *** Venemo_j has quit IRC 00:42 *** Kilroo has joined #maemo 01:35 *** florian has quit IRC 01:59 chem|st: sorry, no idea. Isn't sicelo one of council? or is board even sth different than council? no idea, I only know the wiki page as linked in topic hasn't seen updates since afes 03:15 is wiki.maemo.org down? 03:24 aah nope, just slow 03:24 council, Current: January 2018 - (current):  Eetu Kahelin (eekkelund)      Jussi Ohenoja (juiceme)       Timo Könnecke (mosen) 03:26 juiceme_: do you know about status of coucil? 03:27 *** tm has quit IRC 05:37 *** tm has joined #maemo 05:41 *** pagurus has joined #maemo 06:53 *** pagurus has quit IRC 06:55 *** Kilroo has quit IRC 07:25 *** spiiroin has quit IRC 07:47 *** dderby has quit IRC 08:32 *** dderby has joined #maemo 08:34 *** spiiroin has joined #maemo 08:40 *** LauRoman has quit IRC 08:42 *** dafox has joined #maemo 09:10 *** dafox has quit IRC 09:54 *** florian has joined #maemo 10:06 *** florian has quit IRC 10:11 *** Venemo has joined #maemo 10:35 *** florian_kc is now known as florian 10:54 *** geaaru has joined #maemo 11:04 *** jskarvad has joined #maemo 11:18 *** Enrico_M_RX-51 has quit IRC 11:38 *** geaaru has quit IRC 11:41 i'm just going to use you guys to rant a bit 11:58 I hate latex with the same passion I love it 11:58 I've spent 2 hours to find the issue that was breaking my document, and it was an unescaped _ in text 11:58 :) 12:12 and it's not even fixed yet 12:19 i'm gonna end up rewriting this shit on word 12:19 aww, noo :/ 12:21 i have this thing to document a few things at work 12:21 and some of the sections are autogenerated from code 12:21 it's pretty and automatic 12:21 but since a couple of days it doesn't work 12:22 and I don't know fking why 12:22 there's no reason, no reasonable error, no explanation 12:22 git bisect? 12:31 I already know which is the thing that makes it fail 12:32 but I didn't know the exact underlying reason 12:33 i think it's the underscores 12:33 * Maxdamantus has wondered when TeX will be replaced. 12:34 i think it's pretty when it works 12:35 but getting it to really work is a pain in the ass 12:35 i don't think it's worth the effort 12:35 I think the basic principle behind TeX is desirable: having a programming system for concisely creating printable documents, where various stylistic things are just handled by normal abstractions you have in programming (eg, functions) 12:37 The way it works just happens to be essentially magical. 12:37 because it was designed a long time ago, when a lot of programming concepts were either still being developed, or were just difficult to implement. 12:39 the language is ugly, you always need to load and undefined number of packages, but sometimes they conflict one with the other or must be included in a very specific order, but that order may conflict with some other package you need 12:39 so instead of figuring out how to express everything cleanly using something like a lazy programming language that just fundamentally does function application (which is basically all you need), it's based on macro expansion, which is very hard to reason about. 12:40 really, all you need is some usable syntax for expressing function application, function expressions, and variable binding, and you basically have the same level of power as the TeX language. 12:41 just need to then provide some typesetting primitives (which TeX does in its own system), and some higher-level typesetting library (like LaTeX), and some module system for referring to third-party libraries. 12:42 most of the time you don't really need something like that 12:43 you only need a sensible way to write a table 12:43 *** eMHa_ has joined #maemo 12:43 Yes, but unless you have "make a table" as a primitive operation, you need some sort of abstraction to do that. 12:43 and having "make a table" as a primitive operation would be a very inflexible system. 12:44 yep, but latex/tex is supposedly about how you can separate content from presentation, but that is basically false 12:44 since practically everything requires special support from the base system. 12:44 given that you need to splatter all your text with arcane commands 12:44 *** mickname has quit IRC 12:46 Having it without the ability to write abstractions is basically like writing TeX, but without being able to write things like \def 12:46 Practically noone writes plain TeX, and the ones that do will probably be using \def 12:47 *** mickname has joined #maemo 12:47 so, basically html+css but with more up-in-the-ass granularity? 12:47 LaTeX is just that common library on top of TeX, which depends on being able to write abstractions. 12:48 well, xml+css 12:48 well, yes, that seems more sensible than latex to be honest 12:48 most of the time you want to write paragraph after paragraph of text, why the hell do I have to add \paragraph{} ? 12:48 markdown is even better 12:48 because the inevitable commands are basically non code, so it doesn't interfere with the textual visualization 12:49 last time i had to create a folder out of products, i just created html that i later converted to pdf and set it to printing company 12:49 so basically: sql+files -> php -> html -> pdf -> printing 12:49 So PHP is where you get your abstraction from. 12:50 I don't think HTML/CSS alone is sufficient for replacing LaTeX as it's used, eg, in academia. 12:50 still, it was enough, and flexible at that 12:51 any changes were easy to add and were seen instantly 12:51 Right, it's very flexible, because you've got an actual programming language in the pipeline: PHP 12:51 some say php isnt programming language 12:52 ;) 12:52 but preprocessor 12:52 So you're fully capable of separating the "content" from the "display" 12:52 ie, you're not having to write something like "indent 5px" at the beginning of every paragraph. 12:52 that's css's work 12:53 or denote classes that effectively say the same thing. 12:53 anyway, here's something I was working on at one point (I'm not the primary author), very dubious of trying to write this in pure HTML/CSS: https://maxdamantus.eu.org/42.pdf 12:55 imo it's very doable with html+css 12:56 It's obviously *do*able 12:57 but is it maintainable? 12:57 yes 12:57 if you throw php at it too 12:57 to generate things in proper places 12:57 You can obviously write Linux in x86 assembly 12:57 but is it maintainable? 12:57 but yes, i think you can write it quite cleanly in pure html+css 12:57 Sure, if you use PHP instead of LaTeX, you can do whatever you want with it. 12:57 You can write a layout system in PHP that just figures out where every character goes. 12:58 you could even just write a font renderer in PHP, so you don't have to rely on font handling in the HTML being accurate. 12:58 any preprocessing makes it much easier. that i agree 12:58 the thing is that latex doesn't really does a good job in the end 12:59 but for all of that, you need libraries, so you need to either write it yourself, or rely on someone else having written it. That's the part that you actually get with LaTeX: someone else has already written a bunch of reusable layout combinators. 12:59 btw. what's that 'FOO' on next-to-last page? 12:59 something left behind? 12:59 https://i.imgur.com/JnpCI6d.png 12:59 Can't remember. That whole document is a WIP. 12:59 solve this 12:59 or spacer put there so big cells go on next page 12:59 can probably look at it in git 12:59 nah, got own work to do, eh 13:01 why is that } \hspace{-10ex} }{}\\ 13:15 *** Vajb has quit IRC 13:15 That first line corresponds to the production rule just above the positioning error pointed to. 13:16 (the actual source code has additional newlines/indentation, so it's a bit easier to read than what I posted here) 13:16 (though I often did get annoyed at the main author's occasional indentation inconsistency (occurs in Java code, not just TeX)) 13:17 he's also Italian, so the TeX is partly in Italian. 13:17 *** xes has quit IRC 13:18 *** Venemo has quit IRC 13:19 I think the occasional negative spacing is just to force stuff to fit onto one line, but since the document was being semantically updated (not just updated to improve styling), those negative space hacks might've become inconsintent. They should obviously be fixed at some point. 13:20 *** florian_kc has joined #maemo 13:21 *** spiiroin has quit IRC 13:24 *** florian_kc has quit IRC 13:26 *** xes has joined #maemo 13:28 i'm reading this http://www.danielallington.net/2016/09/the-latex-fetish/ 13:28 and as for the "FOO", apparently one of the source files was just replaced entirely with the content "FOO" 13:29 well, that's obvious, I thought it was yet to be written 13:30 presumably because the content was moved to a different place, and I guess he didn't feel like removing/unreferencing that file at the time. 13:30 neither that nor the guy writing italian is latex' fault :) 13:30 or that didnt feel like fixing broken page layout 13:31 ;) 13:31 *** ketas has quit IRC 13:38 *** ketas has joined #maemo 13:39 *** Vajb has joined #maemo 13:46 *** florian_kc has joined #maemo 13:47 *** florian__ has joined #maemo 13:53 *** florian_kc has quit IRC 14:14 *** Kabouik has joined #maemo 14:18 *** Kabouik has joined #maemo 14:18 *** Venemo has joined #maemo 14:29 *** florian__ has quit IRC 15:17 *** Kabouik has quit IRC 15:31 *** spiiroin has joined #maemo 15:46 *** buZz has quit IRC 16:05 *** hurrian has joined #maemo 16:18 *** buZz has joined #maemo 16:23 *** buZz is now known as Guest3281 16:24 *** Guest3281 has quit IRC 16:24 *** Guest3281 has joined #maemo 16:24 *** Guest3281 is now known as buZz 16:25 *** florian_kc has joined #maemo 17:03 *** florian_kc has quit IRC 17:09 *** florian_kc has joined #maemo 17:24 *** Venemo has quit IRC 18:07 *** Pali has joined #maemo 18:25 *** LauRoman has joined #maemo 18:45 *** xes_ has joined #maemo 18:55 *** xes has quit IRC 18:56 *** florian_kc has quit IRC 18:58 *** florian has quit IRC 19:02 *** florian has joined #maemo 19:31 *** LauRoman|Alt has joined #maemo 19:32 *** LauRoman|Alt has quit IRC 19:57 *** LauRoman|Alt has joined #maemo 20:02 *** eMHa_ has quit IRC 20:03 *** __LauRoman has joined #maemo 20:08 *** LauRoman|Alt has quit IRC 20:12 *** LauRoman|Alt has joined #maemo 20:13 *** __LauRoman has quit IRC 20:13 *** LauRoman|Alt has quit IRC 20:31 *** eMHa_ has joined #maemo 20:36 *** LauRoman|Alt has joined #maemo 20:55 *** LauRoman|Alt has quit IRC 21:07 *** spiiroin has quit IRC 21:45 *** dderby has quit IRC 21:48 *** dderby has joined #maemo 21:50 *** Enrico_M_RX-51 has joined #maemo 22:13 *** ketas has quit IRC 22:16 *** spiiroin has joined #maemo 22:18 *** ketas has joined #maemo 22:19 *** LauRoman|Alt has joined #maemo 22:33 *** LauRoman|Alt has quit IRC 22:35 *** jskarvad has quit IRC 22:35 *** xes_ has quit IRC 22:38 *** xes_ has joined #maemo 22:38 *** xes_ has quit IRC 22:44 *** xes_ has joined #maemo 22:45 *** pagurus has quit IRC 22:57 *** xes_ has quit IRC 22:59 *** Vajb has quit IRC 23:31 *** Vajb has joined #maemo 23:40

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