IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2019-02-06

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brolin_empeyHeh, I briefly forgot that the N900 uses a MiniSIM instead of a MicroSIM or smaller.02:26
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bencohyou can use an adapter though02:36
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brolin_empeybencoh: Yes, I know.  I have used the same SIM since 2009 but I successfully converted it from a MiniSIM to a MicroSIM by myself in 2014 when I got the Geeksphone Revolution, which was the first device I had that used a MicroSIM or smaller.09:27
brolin_empeyI used this template for the conversion:
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Vajbbrolin_empey: Thank you for yor server offer. I think I'll be using that gitlab solution since it is only for short period. And sorry that I were so slow to respond.09:39
brolin_empeyVajb: You are welcome but, honestly, I had already forgotten about my offer.  When did I offer you hosting?  I remember what I offered but I do not remember when I offered it.09:41
VajbN900 has been a pain to use lately. So I've tried to figure out what is wrong, but I have no idea. If I use wlan it seems to work well, but if I use gprs it loses connection to network and even reports of missing sim. Syslog shows a lot of cmt resets.09:42
Vajbbrolin_empey: I think it has been a week or so. Could be longer too.09:43
brolin_empeyI now have the same model of Nokia box as my office has on my wall at home because I upgraded from asymmetrical DSL to symmetrical FttP at my home yesterday (Monday).09:43
brolin_empeyVajb: OK.  Can you get a still reliable N900 and clone the eMMC contents from your current N900 motherboard to the “new” N900 motherboard?09:46
brolin_empeyThen you could keep your old N900 for parts.09:47
VajbI have one barely intact one. I've been saving it for this kind of situation, but haven't got time to flash it yet.09:49
Vajbbut I have yet one trick to try with this one. I was reading KotCzarnys sim problems and was like "WHAT there is a contact at the side too", so I'll see if that could be the culprit. Since it strikes me odd that it works when Im not using gprs.09:53
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KotCzarnyfor me it triggers 'no sim' icon09:53
KotCzarnynot just broken connectivity of data etc09:53
KotCzarnyalthough who knows what and where..09:54
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Vajbyup I have seen that several times09:57
Vajbbut sometimes it is just no network and sometimes it even asks for PIN09:58
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Vajbalso I was thinking that, does gpts consume more battery power that wlan? Speculating about faulty battery now. Since I noticed it is very slightly bulged.10:00
siceloyes, it does, depending on other factors, of course, e.g. PSM or no-PSM10:01
sicelo2G or 3G10:01
Vajbmostly 3G or 3.5G10:04
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brolin_empeyEr, I forgot that the N900 motherboard has another flash memory IC in addition to the eMMC.  I meant clone the contents of all (only both, I think?) fixed SSDs from the old N900 motherboard to the new N900 motherboard.11:02
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brolin_empeyI wanted to ask Vajb if they have another (active) SIM they can try using in their N900 but they quit (due to N900 problem?).11:40
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brolin_empey<brolin_empey> I wanted to ask Vajb if they have another (active) SIM they can try using in their N900 but they quit (due to N900 problem?).11:44
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Vajbcleaning the sidepin had no effect. Let's see what fresh battery does.11:54
brolin_empey<brolin_empey> I wanted to ask Vajb if they have another (active) SIM they can try using in their N900 but they quit (due to N900 problem?).11:54
Vajbdevice feels weird now. Since I replaced mugen cover with stock cover11:54
Vajbnope, have just one sim11:55
VajbI could try sim in another N900 tho11:55
Vajbinteresting. Change of battery seems to have fixed this. At least first five minutes seem promising12:01
brolin_empeyKotCzarny: Apparently some users are successfully using an mSATA SSD in the Dell Latitude X1:12:27
brolin_empeyI wonder why this topic was silently locked over a decade after it began? (fail)12:27
KotCzarnywasnt it old news for dell x1 and thinkpad x40 ?12:28
KotCzarnythey are similar in features and design12:28
brolin_empeyActually, this topic may have been locked only nine years after it began.12:29
KotCzarnyand my x40 is running happily on samsung 830 msata for a long time12:30
sixwheeledbeastIt's not Mini or Micro it's "standard"12:37
sixwheeledbeastBattery maybe putting slight pressure on the SIM and therefore the contacts.12:40
KotCzarnyswb: i think the 'standard' simcard is not the original one12:40
KotCzarnyi think it was bigger long time ago12:40
sixwheeledbeastyes I believe it was the full credit card size12:40
sixwheeledbeastIt would appear different places/providers use different names so "standard" or "Mini" is correct :shrug:12:42
MaxdamantusI would imagine "standard" *should* mean the credit card size.12:43
KotCzarnyn900 uses mini12:43
KotCzarnythen there are micro and nano sizes12:43
MaxdamantusSince unless there's some other terminology, that must've been what was used to differentiate them from the new "mini" ones (which N900 uses)12:44
sixwheeledbeastOriginal/Standard/Mini/Micro is used here instead of Full/Mini/Micro/Nano12:44
MaxdamantusThat seems very confusing. By "here" do you mean a particular country, or a particular SIM provider?12:45
sixwheeledbeastI suppose xFF is the better way but people would look at you confusingly in the provider shop. Both.12:45
MaxdamantusEspecially the shifting of the terms "mini" and "micro"12:45
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KotCzarnyi would stick with standard/mini/micro/nano12:47
KotCzarnyapple/samsung uses that nomenclature12:47
MaxdamantusApparently the proper term is "full" rather than standard.12:47
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Maxdamantusthough I'd say "standard" should probably also mean the same thing as "full", but I suspect it'd be likely to refer to the biggest one that people actually know used to go into phones.12:49
* Maxdamantus didn't know the "full" size went into phones until a couple of years ago.12:49
MaxdamantusActually, maybe it never actually went into a phone anyway.12:50
KotCzarnyyeah, mostly terminals etc12:50
VajbI think it did ni Nokia 1630 serie12:51
sixwheeledbeastHmm. Weird I have a laptop drive that is showing some large odd values in SMART but isn't failing a self-test.12:53
MaxdamantusMm, yeah, apparently the 1610 at least did:
Maxdamantusright, apparently 1630 = 1610 but maybe with different modems, or just different lock-in.12:53
KotCzarnymost people dreamed about own phone at that time12:53
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sixwheeledbeastI could just about fit my Psion Pocket PC in my pocket with it...12:56
KotCzarnyswb: smart would fail only for parameters marked as 'pre-fail'12:57
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KotCzarnyold_age ones are mostly hints about drive status12:57
KotCzarnyalso, pre-fail params have to reach threshold param before they get treated as failed12:58
sixwheeledbeastRead Error Rate | 239988 | 100 | 46 | 100 | Pre-Fail | Online | OK12:58
sixwheeledbeastSeek Error Rate | 2498 | 100 | 0 |100 | Old-Age | Online | OK12:59
KotCzarnypaste header too12:59
sixwheeledbeastdo I need smartd for that? this is from gnome-disks13:02
KotCzarnysmartctl -A /dev/sda13:03
KotCzarnyand to get failure log use -a13:03
sixwheeledbeastneeds smartmontools which maybe an issue as cant get networking on13:04
KotCzarnycopy package with flashdrive?13:04
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sixwheeledbeasta load of mysql dependences later .. header?13:18
sixwheeledbeast1 | Raw_Read_Error_Rate | 0x000f | 100 | 100 | 46 | Pre-Fail | Always | - | 16082713:20
KotCzarnythat's a header13:20
sixwheeledbeastas above then13:21
KotCzarnyraw value can be ignored, you are interested in val/worst/thresh/type13:21
KotCzarnyin this case its 100/100, and would fail at 46/100 or below13:21
sixwheeledbeastso its not raw I need to look at?13:23
KotCzarnysometimes raw value is split field, with only some bits used for value and rest used by vendor for something only they know13:24
MaxdamantusIf you understand the significance of the raw value, you can look at it.13:24
KotCzarnythat's why 'VALUE' is normalized data that can be meaningful for user/script13:24
sixwheeledbeastOk. I completely misunderstood this then. Most drives I have seen show 0 in raw13:25
KotCzarnyonly vendor knows what is in raw_value (and probably smartmontools author)13:25
MaxdamantusThe smartmontools author doesn't really have any special knowledge. All they have is still just the name of the field.13:26
sixwheeledbeastMust be brand specific then, I mostly use WD and I believe this is a Seagate.13:27
sixwheeledbeastSo Value and Worst should be > Threshold13:27
Maxdamantusbut the raw value often denotes fairly discrete things that can be reasoned about, and they don't necessarily strictly increase or decrease .. eg, "Offline_Uncorrectable" denotes the number of currently known unreadable blocks.13:28
Maxdamantus(that number can increase as the drive notices more block that it hasn't been able to read, and it can decrease if it's finally able to read them or if you just overwrite that block)13:29
KotCzarnynot just brand, firmware can differ too13:30
sixwheeledbeastFujistu actually. This raw is random and all over the show. from 3fig to 6 fig values.13:30
KotCzarnythats why in smartmontools they have rules matching vendor/model13:30
MaxdamantusIt might be worth looking into what the attribute actually means. The value/worst/threshold fields are often not actually useful.13:30
KotCzarnyand for raw read rate it probably can fluctuate13:31
Maxdamantus  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x000f   087   060   045    Pre-fail  Always       -       46790488013:31
KotCzarnyand be some median value over time/period13:31
MaxdamantusThat's what I have on my relatively new Seagate drive13:31
KotCzarnybad geometry?13:32
KotCzarnyit might not like position is it mounted in13:32
KotCzarnyor gets some vibrations13:32
MaxdamantusDoubt it. It's probably just counting something that's perfectly normal.13:32
KotCzarnyand 'value' being far from 100 means drive isnt perfect13:33
MaxdamantusI've heard about SMART attributes being removed from new drive models just because they caused unnecessary worry.13:33
KotCzarnybut still in the margin of usability13:33
KotCzarnyworst for your drive was 60, which is quite low13:33
KotCzarnyand at 45 it would say 'failed'13:33
KotCzarny  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate     0x002f   200   200   051    Pre-fail  Always       -       013:34
KotCzarnythat's on my old wd green 3T drive13:34
KotCzarny  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   051   051   000    Old_age   Always       -       3585013:34
MaxdamantusKotCzarny: sure, I get 0 on all of my WD drives.13:34
KotCzarny  7 Seek_Error_Rate         0x002e   200   200   000    Old_age   Always       -       013:34
MaxdamantusKotCzarny: because it obviously means something quite different on WD.13:34
KotCzarnysee that in this cace param 7 is flagged as old_age13:34
MaxdamantusI think I looked into that attribute shortly after getting the drive actually, and it seemed to be fine.13:35
KotCzarnykeep in mind, different vendors use different technologies13:37
KotCzarnyso particular parameter could be more important for some13:37
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sixwheeledbeastOh well it may not be the drive then. ty13:42
KotCzarnymost important params are crc errors, raw read rate errors, allocated blocks13:43
KotCzarnythose are plain bad13:43
KotCzarnyand temperature being over 40C13:44
KotCzarnywhich means drive will die faster13:44
sixwheeledbeasttemp 39C13:45
sixwheeledbeastis it a laptop13:45
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MaxdamantusWhat's special about 40? Mine's at 41, and I think that temperature is largely due to the drive itself.13:51
Maxdamantusthe datasheet says not to operate sustained ambient temperatures above 60 °C.13:52
KotCzarnyaccording to statistics at datacenters 40+ is where probability of failure starts to rise13:52
KotCzarnywith 45+ being high13:52
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KotCzarnyso it's not 'imminent failure' but something that will bite you sooner than later13:53
KotCzarnyand not every drive would fail13:53
KotCzarnybut chance of failure is higher13:53
MaxdamantusOkay, so it's a matter of lifetime drastically falling at that particular temperature?13:54
MaxdamantusSince .. every drive is going to fail sometime.13:54
KotCzarnyyeah, but as i've said, it's probability13:54
KotCzarnynot every drive from the same batch is the same13:54
MaxdamantusThis graph seems to indicate that 40 is a pretty good temperature:
MaxdamantusIf it's around 37 or lower the failure rate increases.13:57
Maxdamantus(apparently based on a 2007 study by Google)13:57
KotCzarnymaybe some other effect is at play13:58
MaxdamantusMy guess is that if the drive is less than 37, it's because something is actively cooling it.13:58
KotCzarnybecause to keep them cold, they have to actively cool the area13:58
Maxdamantuswhich will create unnatural temperature differentials across the drive.13:59
KotCzarnyin normal laptop/desktop use, you will mostly see 30-40C for hdd14:00
MaxdamantusLike cracking a glass by taking it out of the dishwasher and then pouring some liquid in it from the fridge.14:00
KotCzarnyfor ssd drives the whole temperature fun is different and complicated14:01
MaxdamantusNone of the temperatures involved there are outside of what the glass should handle, but the glass might not be made to handle that difference in temperature between the inside and outside.14:01
sixwheeledbeastI always build with intake fan across the drive bays so rarely see above 30C14:02
KotCzarnyfunny that there is a probability dip at 45C for google survey14:02
MaxdamantusI suspect that's just due to lack of data.14:02
Maxdamantusunless the failing factors get very complicated after there.14:03
KotCzarnynah, that would just make uncertainity ticks bigger14:03
KotCzarnyi would assume some additional factors14:03
KotCzarnyapplied physics/electronics is fun14:04
KotCzarnybtw. from your link: The 2013 University of Virginia study of 10,000 hard drives in a Microsoft datacenter found that the annual failure rate steadily increases with temperature, from about 4% per year at 27 °C to about 10% per year at 44 °C (Figure 5).14:05
Maxdamantusalso, > The 2014 Backblaze survey of 34,000 hard drive found no correlation between temperature and failure rate.14:05
KotCzarnyyeah, so it's all about comparing apples to apples in the same batch/conditions14:06
MaxdamantusMaybe we should instead just go by what the datasheet says.14:06
Maxdamantuswhich in my case says not to go above 60 °C14:06
KotCzarnynope, because datasheet only gives operating margins14:06
Maxdamantusor belowe 5 °C14:06
Maxdamantusno, the operating margin is 70 °C14:07
KotCzarnyand having upper temperature margin says that temperature IS a factor14:07
Maxdamantusit gives the 60 °C figure as a footnote.14:07
Maxdamantus"Seagate does not recommend operating at a sustained case temperature above 60 °C. Operating at higher temperatures will reduce useful life of the product."14:07
KotCzarnyi wonder what is non-useful life of product14:08
Maxdamantusthough the temperatures mentioned in the spec sheet are ambient, not drive temperature.14:08
MaxdamantusIf it's 5 °C outside, the drive will certainly itself be operating at a higher temperature, since it's going to be dissipating power.14:09
KotCzarnymore importantly it's physical params would be different14:09
sixwheeledbeastWell Seatgate do make useful doorstops and paperweights14:09
KotCzarnyseatgate sounds like porcelain product bussiness14:11
MaxdamantusI suspect that to some extent, optimising drive lifetime like that will be similar to optimising human lifetime using health supplements.14:17
Maxdamantusfish oil, magnesium, vitamin C, other random stuff that people take without really having any evidence that they need it.14:18
KotCzarnytoo many factors14:22
KotCzarnyyou can only create statistical data14:22
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brolin_empeyThe N900 uses a MiniSIM card.  A full-size SIM card is the same size as a credit card.22:35
brolin_empeyKotCzarny: I shared the link about the mSATA in Latitude X1 because I did not know of anyone using an mSATA drive in a Latitude X1 before I revisited that forum topic for the first time in years to see if anyone had replied since I last visited the topic.  I did not mean that using mSATA in a Latitude X1 was new, only that that was the first time I knew of someone using it.  Also, I thought the ThinkPad X40 has a fan?22:38
KotCzarnyx40 has a fan but mine runs with modified fan script, mostly fanless22:40
KotCzarnyit only turns on when firefox does some ugly webpage22:40
KotCzarny(ie. when cpu jumps over 63C)22:40
KotCzarnymostly it hovers ~35-50C22:41
brolin_empeyThe Dell Inspiron Mini 1018 and Dell Inspiron Mini 1012 are fanless, x86-64, and use a 2.5-inch SATA HDD/SSD but apparently they lack an integrated numeric keypad.  The reviews I redd of them on also say that they are sealed and not designed to be opened by the user.22:42
brolin_empeyThey are from 2010, though, so they should be cheap by now.22:43
brolin_empeyAnyone know much about Client Access Licences (CALs) for Windows Server 2019?  I ordered per-user CALs but now wonder if I should have ordered per-device CALs.22:46
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