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| jonwil | hi | 00:48 |
|---|---|---|
| DocScrutinizer05 | hi | 00:49 |
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| jonwil | Looks like there are definitely options for getting TLS 1.2 support on Maemo Fremantle for those who are interested in it :) | 01:10 |
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| jonwil | And for those who say "why bother", point me to an alternative,,, | 01:14 |
| Wizzup | I think people have, you just don't accept it as such ;) | 01:17 |
| jonwil | "move to a new OS" isn't an alternative since Leste has no browser and isn't ready for prime time. | 01:22 |
| jonwil | And I haven't seen any browser that works for Maemo Fremantle that is new enough to support what is needed | 01:22 |
| Wizzup | what you want requires work either way. saying that one requires work and thus is not an alternative is weird | 01:23 |
| Wizzup | but this argument is not productive anyway ;) | 01:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: don't bother about efforts by others to force everybody onto a new premature platform. we seen those so many times and I recommend to ignore them | 01:36 |
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| jonwil | My point I guess is that it will be much faster to get something new (say, a newer NSS or a newer Gecko tree or something) onto Maemo Fremantle than it will be to get Leste-on-N900 to the point where its a viable replacement with Fremantle and has a full working browser and stuff. | 01:39 |
| jonwil | So its an alternative on paper but not really viable right now. | 01:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I understand that, I even wonder if that "get Leste-on-N900 to the point where its a viable replacement with Fremantle" will ever arrive. We seen exactly same rationale so many times before, like "why do you want to fix audio in fremantle? just develop your 'say who's calling' app for meego, it's the future" | 01:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | say-who's-calling works on N900, while on N9 it's ... err is N9 still a thing? And if yes, did they manage to overcome Aegis? | 01:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | arguments like "why don't you support our new project instead" always have an ugly smell | 01:44 |
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| jonwil | I think the big argument in favor of Leste (the one I have seen anyway) is that there are a bunch of key packages (gcc, glibc, glib, gtk, kernel and others) that simply can't be upgraded on Maemo without breaking things and a fresh start that doesn't care about ABI compatibility or the many binary blobs on the system is a better way to go vs the CSSU approach of trying to fix bugs on ancient... | 01:47 |
| jonwil | ...software versions. | 01:47 |
| jonwil | "throw everything away and start over" is never a good idea | 01:47 |
| jonwil | well almost never. | 01:48 |
| jonwil | I think the problem with Leste is that it seemed to be more about "how can we get Maemo on other hardware" rather than a proper "how can we bring the N900 up to date" plan (with the N900 just being one of a number of target platforms that ends up being supported because the right bits happen to be there) | 01:58 |
| Wizzup | Yes, Leste will hopefully outlive the N900. Precisely because hardware ages. | 02:08 |
| Wizzup | That said, it's likely the be the only real and semi-usable target for a while. ;-) | 02:09 |
| Wizzup | besides, lots of useful/usable stuff has been done that could also be used on fremantle if people put in the time. | 02:10 |
| Wizzup | DocScrutinizer05: the irony with your "it's the future" argument is that's in reality it is the exact opposite. leste is more compatible with fremantle than any other thing nokia has made after fremantle. most sw works simply by bumping the debian 'compat' file and recompiling the software. | 02:11 |
| jonwil | What are the plans re browser on Leste anyway? | 02:11 |
| Wizzup | there are several ideas, but none have seen significant effort yet because other things have higher priority. personally I'd like to see if we can take a simple webkit browser and extend it with sensible features. or take/mod jolla browser | 02:12 |
| Wizzup | downside is that even jolla browser is now already somewhat aged | 02:12 |
| Wizzup | but they might still update it to newer gecko/nss | 02:12 |
| Wizzup | surf (from suckless) seemed quite hackable with some useful patches around, but really, I have not looked a lot at webkit at all | 02:15 |
| jonwil | I wonder what version of Fennec was the one that dropped all the bits we would need and became "Mozilla for Android" (I know there is a Maemo build of Fennec 17 but beyond that I dont know) | 02:16 |
| Wizzup | I don't recall the version onfortunately. There was also alopex | 02:17 |
| Wizzup | I think freemangordon said that Jolla browser is based on version 37 or so? | 02:17 |
| Wizzup | I also have not tried QML Browser. Assuming that is webkit | 02:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm sorry I can't tell if the breakdown of context and meaning was with my post transferred to you or your reply transferred to me, but I can't make any sense of the response. "It's the future" was an argument a meego (Mk1) devel uttered when some maemo fremantle devel asked about how to implement stuff on N900 | 02:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | similar stuff happens every other month, it seems | 02:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's the generic "WONTFIX" reply | 02:23 |
| Wizzup | So if I ask how to do something in debian 3, would you think it is a weird reply to say: upgrade to devuan 8 first? | 02:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, absolutely | 02:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in school you'd get an F for such reply | 02:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when I ask "how to drill a hole into steel?", the reply can't be "search for wood" | 02:29 |
| Wizzup | I am not so sure about that school analogy. If I used a 30 year old biology book, I'd get an F. They would tell me to get a recent book, with all the fixes to the issues in the 30 year old version. | 02:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a reply like "move to windows" wouldn't be any wors ethan the "upgrade to debian 8 first" | 02:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when somebody asks "how to do X", the anser "you don't" is never a particularly smart one | 02:32 |
| Wizzup | Right, and I never said that. The only thing I remarked is the relative narrow definition of 'alternative', which annoyed me a bit. That's it. | 02:33 |
| Wizzup | I should get some sleep | 02:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | school: the test asks "when your pencil writes an average 4cm per word and on a one page there are 800 words to write, then after how many pages you need to sharpen your pencil when it can write a 6 meter with each sharpening", You answer "Nobody uses pencils anymore, get a ballpen instead!" - guess your rating on that test | 02:39 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know, maybe nowadays this is a valid and even a good answer in school. Back in my time it wasn't, you get zero points and added bonus of public appreciation of the answer by teacher | 02:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | likewise my original argument that it's not a lehit answer to say "move to meego" when somebody asks how to implement something on maemo fremantle. Nevertheless we heard that a bazillion times | 02:54 |
| jonwil | "don't fix it, replace it with something new that probably isn't a direct replacement" is never a good option if fixing it is actually possible. | 02:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 02:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you could dstart a debate about how much effort it is to fix the old stuff and whether or not it's worth it. But a mere '"move to Y" never is a legitimate answer to "how do I fix X" | 02:56 |
| jonwil | It also depends on whether "move to Y" means "move to Y" or "move to Y and do <blah>" | 02:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: anyway you tackling the TLS issue is highly appreciated by many | 03:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OHLOL | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | >> Sorry, it seems that you are using an IP address or a proxy that is listed in the forum anti spam blacklist. Feel free to contact our staff on irc freenode #maemo channel.<< | 03:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why the heck does forum need to protect against spammers *READING* it? | 03:04 |
| jonwil | I figured out 4 possible ways forward. One is to see if we can get a newer version of Fennec (with the necessary TLS support) to Fremantle. There is a Fremantle port of Fennec 17 floating around but I don't know when Fennec dropped all the bits we need and became "Firefox for Android" and whether there is a new enough build that we can get working somehow. | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's honestly one of the most unique stupid things I encountered in whole intarwebs so far | 03:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: sorry, I can't read your tmo post right now | 03:05 |
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| jonwil | I copied the posts describing the 4 options I came up with into https://pastebin.com/pbMPnBWN | 03:06 |
| jonwil | Option 1 being to try and get a newer Fennec going, option 2 being to try and get a newer Gecko going, option 3 being to back-port the new NSS to the old microb-engine and option 4 being to back port just the TLS 1.2 bits. | 03:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | could somebody please point me to the website that offered checking IPs against that forum anti spam blacklist? I need to find a privateinternetaccess proxy that isn't blacklisted | 03:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or somebody nukes that anti spam crap on everything tmo except /login | 03:08 |
| jonwil | Option 2 is my preferred option if we can pull it off since it would give not just TLS 1.2 but also a better browser engine (I tested Firefox 24 Portable on my Windows PC against many of the sites that simply do not work on Maemo Fremantle right now and ,many of them are definitely usable on FF24) | 03:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds good | 03:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys unblock | 03:14 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'unblock' by key returned no results. | 03:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 03:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys unban | 03:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ohmy, 2:16 already | 03:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gotta wait til 2:19 | 03:16 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I wish TimRiker would fix whatever it is in cron.daily that fucks the bot | 03:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys unban | 03:19 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'unban' by key returned no results. | 03:19 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 glares at logrotate and systemd | 03:20 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wouldn't be surprised when there was a systemd-logrotated that fucked up stuff in that it indiscriminately shuts down and restarts processes that have a logfile open at rotate time | 03:22 |
| jonwil | The 3 problems we have are A.Identifying anything removed between the code we have and the FF24 Gecko code that we need to bring back (not the easiest of things), B.Identifying any API or ABI incompatibilities between the 2 and finding a solution for them and C.Porting the maemo Debian packaging, all the local patches etc (where they still matter) over to the new tree | 03:23 |
| jonwil | But its still far less work than getting Leste to the point where its usable as a daily driver AND getting a web browser going on that platform. | 03:23 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds correct | 03:26 |
| Wizzup | jonwil: 'fixing it is actually possible' that really depends on what you call fixing | 03:28 |
| Wizzup | tls 1.2 is hardly the only thing that is missing/broken | 03:28 |
| Wizzup | but again, I will refrain from further comments since I don't think it's constructive ;) | 03:28 |
| jonwil | The FF24 browser engine is not perfect but it still improves a lot over current microb-engine. | 03:29 |
| Wizzup | and you will have to go over all the CVEs since firefox 24 :( | 03:29 |
| Wizzup | oh, I've also tried to ask a couple of times in mozilla irc about the current state of embedding, and I think I've been ignored every time. | 03:31 |
| Wizzup | So I wonder if there is any current embedding framework for gecko/firefox | 03:31 |
| Wizzup | they might be moving so fast it is just broken :) | 03:31 |
| Wizzup | gn | 03:35 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | jonwil: ooh I missd your post >>[2018-05-26 Sat 02:06:46] <jonwil> I copied the posts describing the 4 options I came up with into https://pastebin.com/pbMPnBWN<< Thanks a lot buddy | 05:06 |
| jonwil | The preferred option would be to get FF24 Gecko into microb-engine. | 05:08 |
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| jonwil | Looks like the FF 24.8.1 ESR release is a good base to start from in regards to what Gecko tree we use | 06:23 |
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| Wikiwide | Regarding screencasting : so far, I tried "load applet". It works, as in, records video. But when I ask Media Player to play the 41s video, I obverse: 1) moving image plays out way faster than audio; 2) audio misses last second or so. Is it problem with screencasting "load applet" or Media Player? | 06:51 |
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| Wikiwide | And by the way, would be nice to split "load applet" into two different applets: 1) CPU/memory load monitor ; 2) screencasting. | 06:52 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I never had much luck with load applet screencasts | 08:53 |
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| brolin_empey | If someone asks how to replace points in their antiquated automotive vehicle propelled by a spark-ignition engine that uses a points distributor instead of electronic fuel ignition, is it really worth learning how to replace points and where to still acquire points if the much easier solution in the long term is to upgrade the vehicle to use electronic fuel ignition or to replace the vehicle with a less antiquated vehicle that already uses electronic fuel | 09:51 |
| brolin_empey | ignition? | 09:51 |
| KotCzarny | i the vehicle is reliable and hackable, sure | 09:52 |
| KotCzarny | as opposed to those break-after-guarantee-period 'new' ones | 09:52 |
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| brolin_empey | What if someone asks how to use a 5.25-inch full-height HDD using ST-506 host interface (which requires a host controller only available on an ISA card) instead of ATA in an 80486 class or higher computer? Is it really worth it to use such antiquated storage technology instead of using an ATA host controller and 3.5-inch or smaller HDD or SSD? | 10:03 |
| brolin_empey | What if someone asks how to run Mac OS X on their m68k Macintosh? Do you tell them to run GNU+Linux for m68k so that they can run Mac OS X for PowerPC on a PowerPC computer emulated in software on an m68k computer? ;-) | 10:10 |
| brolin_empey | I mean using PearPC, which is a software emulation of a PowerPC computer that can technically run on GNU+Linux for m68k on an m68k Macintosh. | 10:13 |
| brolin_empey | What if someone asks how to run Windows 98 on an 80386 computer? Do you tell them to install Windows 98 on an 80486 or higher class of computer and move the drive to the 80386 computer after installation because Windows 98 can technically partially run on an 80386 but the installer will, by default, refuse to run on less than an 80486 class of computer? | 10:16 |
| brolin_empey | What if someone asks how to use a Nokia N900 with the cellular network of Telus Mobility, Bell Mobility, or any of their MVNOs in Canada, who use bands not supported by the cellular modem in the Nokia N900? ;-) | 10:21 |
| KotCzarny | what if someone tells you there are people using n900 and if you dont use, you shouldnt tell them what and how to use their n900? | 10:22 |
| brolin_empey | What if there were no hypothetical questions? | 10:24 |
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| brolin_empey | I wonder if my dot-matrix impact computer printer from the 1980s that I got working with Windows 7 for x86-32 is still supported by Windows 10 for x86-64. | 10:31 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | People are going to what the best solution for there task, this is why as projects get older there are different views and directions to take. | 10:41 |
| brolin_empey | Regarding my last message, I am seriously finally trying it because I already have the printer installed on Windows 10. The printer still powers on and both Form Feed and Line Feed functions appear to work but without any paper. I just need to (re)learn how to insert paper in a printer that is around the same age as me (circa 1987). | 10:45 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~unbinip | 10:45 |
| sixwheeledbeast | ~unbanip | 10:45 |
| infobot | [unbanip] please contact techstaff <at> maemo <dot> org with your request, or see ~techstaff, or see https://www.stopforumspam.com/removal, or contact tmo maintainer chem|st in here, or if your ip is dynamic, try changing it | 10:45 |
| sixwheeledbeast | :facepalm: | 10:46 |
| brolin_empey | I have both Letter and A4 sizes of copy paper even though I live in Canada. | 10:47 |
| sixwheeledbeast | https://github.com/marxoft/qml-browser - is WebKit I believe | 10:52 |
| jonwil | I would rather not try and throw some who-knows-what fork of Webkit in there if we can get a newer mainline Gecko (with whatever local patches we need) in there instead. | 10:54 |
| jonwil | I dont see anything show-stopping preventing us getting FF24 going on Fremantle although I haven't yet dug all that deep into any ABI changes or the like | 10:55 |
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| KotCzarny | thing being ancient for one? | 10:56 |
| KotCzarny | 2015 | 10:56 |
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| sixwheeledbeast | I am assuming QWebkit from Qt4.x? | 11:00 |
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| brolin_empey | Seriously, how do you insert a sheet of normal/friction-feed paper in a dot-matrix impact computer printer? The Paper Feed selector is already set to Friction Feed. I have old continuous/tractor-feed paper I can use if necessary (only in Letter, not A4, size, though) but I am trying to use a sheet of normal copy paper. | 11:03 |
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| jonwil | I suspect the FF24 rendering engine will work with more websites than any QT 4.x webkit forks out there. Plus its mostly self contained and we wouldn't need to make all sorts of changes to our version of QT to get the needed features like TLS 1.2. | 11:51 |
| jonwil | The GTK changes we would need for FF24 are probably fairly small and easy to back port from a newer GTK. | 11:51 |
| jonwil | Getting TLS 1.2 in our QT means we need a new OpenSSL and that adds complications in terms of trying to have both 0.9x and 1.0 running at the same time. | 11:51 |
| jonwil | 1.x rather | 11:51 |
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| Wizzup | jonwil: huh? I think that the qt4 webkit is up to date with most recent webkit | 12:29 |
| Wizzup | oh, right, you mean maemo fremantle qt | 12:30 |
| Wizzup | nvm | 12:30 |
| jonwil | I believe that getting FF24 running as a replacement for microb-engine is the best option. But that's just my opinion. | 12:34 |
| Wizzup | I'm going to be excited if you can pull it off, but I have other things to work on, so I won't be able to help much | 12:39 |
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| Juesto | Oksana: I'm running Leste in my laptop finally :) it's working nicely for the most part | 21:06 |
| sicelo | ;) | 21:09 |
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