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| CatButts | oh hey, I gots a silly idea | 01:40 |
|---|---|---|
| CatButts | regarding key setup in maemo | 01:40 |
| CatButts | for applications | 01:40 |
| CatButts | have an application that has you press all keys on your keypad, one by one, and make a profile | 01:41 |
| CatButts | have application be invokable from other applications for two things | 01:42 |
| CatButts | 1. this initial sensing of the keys | 01:42 |
| CatButts | 2. helping application set up its own keys | 01:43 |
| CatButts | the key setup would be visually assisted | 01:43 |
| CatButts | with a mock keypad on the screen | 01:43 |
| CatButts | the correct placement of the keys is aided by the initial sensing | 01:44 |
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| Maxdamantus | Seems like an unnecessary amount of effort for an interface people would rarely use. | 02:12 |
| Maxdamantus | You should already be able to bind things to keys using something like `xbindkeys`, which is probably easy enough for most N900/maemo users. | 02:12 |
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| CatButts | less user, more programmer making his application | 02:16 |
| CatButts | a way to conveniently deal with discrepancies in key layout | 02:17 |
| CatButts | s | 02:17 |
| CatButts | by having user press ALL the keys | 02:17 |
| CatButts | :P | 02:17 |
| CatButts | in order | 02:17 |
| Maxdamantus | You mean the user is forced to press all keys before being able to use the device? | 02:24 |
| CatButts | being forced to press all the keys before using application | 02:31 |
| CatButts | once | 02:31 |
| CatButts | or rather, one application, with the rest benefiting from stored config | 02:31 |
| Maxdamantus | I don't really understand what the purpose is. | 02:32 |
| Maxdamantus | Is it to ensure that users are using a keyboard layout they specifically want? | 02:32 |
| CatButts | yes | 02:32 |
| CatButts | rather | 02:32 |
| Maxdamantus | I imagine most people would probably just use whatever is provided. The decision for where most keys go is pretty much completely arbitrary. | 02:32 |
| Maxdamantus | The fact that it's fairly arbitrary is basically solved by just having a standard layout that everyone just uses. | 02:33 |
| CatButts | it's to give application view of where all keys are | 02:33 |
| Maxdamantus | You can change that if you really want (I did, since I'm used to Dvorak, not QWERTY, and I also mapped all remaining printable ASCII characters to keys) | 02:34 |
| Maxdamantus | Why would an application care where the keys are? | 02:34 |
| Maxdamantus | If it cares about where keys are, it must be specific to N900, in which case it should be using key codes instead of key symbols. | 02:34 |
| Maxdamantus | It shouldn't need to care what the mapping is between codes and symbols. | 02:35 |
| Maxdamantus | unless it is an application designed for something like the configuration between the two. | 02:35 |
| CatButts | well, the first stage maps out where everything is | 02:37 |
| CatButts | the second stage is setting default keys according to first stage and optionally letting user rebin | 02:38 |
| CatButts | d | 02:38 |
| Maxdamantus | Are you talking about so that maemo is device-agnostic? | 02:40 |
| CatButts | nope | 02:41 |
| CatButts | wait | 02:41 |
| CatButts | device agnostic means OS running on other devices as well? | 02:42 |
| Maxdamantus | Yes, on devices other than N900 | 02:42 |
| CatButts | in that case, N900 specific | 02:42 |
| CatButts | it's not at OS level | 02:43 |
| CatButts | it's a helper application for other apllications to use | 02:43 |
| CatButts | with two things to do | 02:44 |
| CatButts | 1. do that silly 'press all keys in order' thing if it hasn't been done before(re-requestable if shit don't line up) | 02:45 |
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| CatButts | 2. provide helping interface for key setup and way to return mapped keys to requesting app | 02:46 |
| CatButts | with visual aid | 02:46 |
| Maxdamantus | What's the point in `1`? You're basically asking the user to produce input that is completely predictable (assuming all users are using an N900) | 02:46 |
| Maxdamantus | it sounds like calibration where there is nothing to actually calibrate. | 02:47 |
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| CatButts | aren't returned keycodes different depending on whatever mapping you have? | 02:48 |
| CatButts | yes, it's a calibration step | 02:48 |
| Maxdamantus | If a screen calibration asks you to press in a particular position, it's because the screen calibration tool isn't sure extactly what numbers will be produced if the user presses where he/she thinks that place is. | 02:48 |
| Maxdamantus | but in this case, the program should know exactly what input will be produced when someone presses a particular key. | 02:49 |
| Maxdamantus | If I press the top left key on my device, it will produce the same key code as if you pressed the top left key on your device. | 02:50 |
| Maxdamantus | and a program could easily be hardcoded with that information. | 02:50 |
| CatButts | what about anything inbetween? | 02:50 |
| CatButts | what about up-down-left-right | 02:51 |
| Maxdamantus | You don't bother gathering data for things you already know. | 02:51 |
| Maxdamantus | Yes, those should also produce the same input on all N900 devices. | 02:51 |
| Maxdamantus | at a hardware level, the keyboard is just a 2D grid of buttons. | 02:52 |
| CatButts | different keycode will be produced when same key is pressed with different mappings | 02:52 |
| CatButts | that's the point | 02:52 |
| Maxdamantus | If you press the button with the same coordinates on two different N900 devices, it will produce the same electronic signals to the CPU. | 02:52 |
| Maxdamantus | No. Keycode is independent of mapping (at least at an Xorg level) | 02:53 |
| Maxdamantus | The keycode is determined by the keypad driver in Linux, which should behave the same way across devices. | 02:53 |
| Maxdamantus | The thing that's configured differently because of different keyboard layouts is the mapping between keycodes and keysyms, which happens in Xorg. | 02:54 |
| Maxdamantus | when you receive a keyboard event in X11, you get the keycode, then you can look up the keysym. | 02:55 |
| CatButts | so an application can listen to either keycode or keysym? | 02:55 |
| Maxdamantus | Yes. | 02:55 |
| CatButts | in this case the first stage becomes useless | 02:56 |
| Maxdamantus | Try running `xev` | 02:56 |
| Maxdamantus | it will show you both the "key code", which is just some number reported by the kernel, independent of you keyboard layout. | 02:56 |
| Maxdamantus | It'll also show the "key sym", which is how applications should generally interpret that key code (eg, as the letter 'a' or the escape key) | 02:57 |
| CatButts | so this theoretical application is now reduced to pretty, unified interface for games to receive keymappings from | 03:00 |
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| Oksanaa | I am quite annoyed at how physically frail Nokia N900's back cover is. Battery cover. | 03:22 |
| Oksanaa | Plastic hook can be broken off, camera lens cover may stop spring-ing properly into open-closed positions, and back-stand may be broken out of the plastic, too. | 03:23 |
| Oksanaa | Besides the magnet wishing to come unglued, which is relatively easy to fix. | 03:24 |
| Oksanaa | I have just received a Nokia N900 with broken case. MicroUSB port works (for charging, at least; will try flashing later), screen is fine if slightly scratched (I applied a screen protector immediately upon receiving the device). Major damage? Back cover misses a triangle of plastic (no clue how it | 03:27 |
| Oksanaa | And it's difficult to find N900's back cover being sold. Whole case? Easy. Battery cover only? Difficult. I could check again... | 03:28 |
| Oksanaa | happened, innards seem to be fine), back-stand shows its sharp metal pointy ends, and plastic hooks are broken off. | 03:28 |
| Oksanaa | I wish Mugen or somebody else continued to make N900 battery covers. | 03:28 |
| Oksanaa | Because I would buy more than one. | 03:28 |
| Oksanaa | Stylus is much easier to source. | 03:29 |
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| Wikiwide | I didn't re-install modrana. 44MB of dependencies? No thank you... | 11:53 |
| Wikiwide | Mappero looks nice, though. But not quite hildon-ised. Just look at its "Full screen" button... | 11:54 |
| Wikiwide | GeePS doesn't cache tiles for offline storage, right? Will uninstall it. | 11:55 |
| Wikiwide | Also, is it possible that a problem with light sensor causes excessive brightness of display and drains battery way too quickly? | 11:57 |
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| Wikiwide | Tired. Tired. Tired. | 13:38 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | CatButts: (keymaps) learn the basics! the hw keycodes are (surprise!) *hardware* defined and immuatable on a certain hw platform. It's only higher layers that assign different chars to t hw keycode, usually according to what you print on your keycaps | 13:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oooh, seems somebody on my ignore list helped sorting stuff and contributed a useful pointer to "keysym". Pretty unusual | 13:50 |
| CatButts | Max? | 13:51 |
| CatButts | watcha piss him off with? :P | 13:51 |
| Maxdamantus | He'd be surprised .. the reason I'm actually on his ignore list was because I was trying to figure out what program was responsible for producing vibration in response to touchscreen presses and he kept insisting it was Xorg and I kept insisting it was an external program. | 13:52 |
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| CatButts | so, from application programmer perspective, you get access to both hw keycodes and mapped keys | 13:53 |
| CatButts | yes? | 13:53 |
| Maxdamantus | (and it was an external program; maemo-xinput-sounds or something along those lines) | 13:53 |
| Maxdamantus | Eh, internet DCed again. | 13:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 13:54 |
| CatButts | then the calibration step I yapped about can become automagic | 13:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | check xev, very useful app | 13:54 |
| Maxdamantus | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2016-01-13.log.html | 13:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/35424980 | 13:55 |
| CatButts | >sh: xev not found | 13:57 |
| CatButts | whooops | 13:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/7504181 | 13:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# apt-cache search xev | 13:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | x11-utils - X11 utilities | 13:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pkg x11-utils | 13:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pkg | 14:00 |
| infobot | pkg is probably http://maemo.org/packages/ | 14:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/packages/view/x11-utils/ | 14:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also see http://maemo.org/packages/view/xmodmap/ | 14:03 |
| CatButts | oh sweet, it has xkill | 14:05 |
| * CatButts tries it on flash 10 player | 14:15 | |
| CatButts | nope | 14:19 |
| CatButts | I guess it's only good when bound to a key | 14:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it'sit particularly pointless on hildon desktop which doesn't support the usual focus setting by clicking with mouse into the window, since there's always just one fullscreen window with focus in front | 14:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then, maemo has "kill recent task" OWTTE in powerbuttonmenu, and the task switcher offers killing tasks as well | 14:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so xkill is useless at best, probably rather not compatible at all | 14:50 |
| CatButts | I make do with htop, so far | 14:50 |
| CatButts | xkill worked fine on the console that summoned it :P | 14:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | lol, yeah. since that consile has the focus | 14:51 |
| CatButts | I imagine you are suppose to assign it to a key combination for it to be of any use | 14:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | not really, it should check the X-event cueue for mouse LMB clicks (as seen by e.g. xev, I leave it to you for an exercise to figure how to make your won xkill using xev in a script, with awk and kill) and find the process owning the window to kill it. Obviously this concept is prone to fail completely on hildon | 14:55 |
| CatButts | sounds like a work of masochism if all I am going to get failure :p | 15:08 |
| CatButts | where is proximity sensor located on the n900? | 15:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sys fs | 15:11 |
| CatButts | physically, I mean | 15:11 |
| CatButts | I want to use that instead of keyboard combos | 15:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh damn you! my nice paste ;-P | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# find /sys -name proximity | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /sys/bus/platform/devices/proximity | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /sys/bus/platform/drivers/gpio-switch/proximity | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | portrait mode upper left corner, next to camera and ALS | 15:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err landscape mode, sorry | 15:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | watch cat /sys/bus/platform/devices/proximity/state | 15:15 |
| CatButts | ah, bueno | 15:16 |
| CatButts | it works | 15:17 |
| CatButts | unlike ShortcutD | 15:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | watch -d -n "0,5" cat /sys/bus/platform/devices/proximity/state | 15:17 |
| CatButts | invalid number 0,5 | 15:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | YMMV, regarding decimal | 15:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | try 0.5 | 15:19 |
| CatButts | same | 15:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if that fails too, get beter `watch` bibary | 15:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if that fails too, get better `watch` binary | 15:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or live with messybox limitations and use interval <INTEGER> | 15:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry, no idea where from I installed my `watch` binary | 15:23 |
| CatButts | http://cat.butt.care:3434/priv/Screenshot-20171126-152321.png hmmmmm | 15:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm makes sense | 15:25 |
| CatButts | I have the oportunity to type N and avoid a pottential fudge-up | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/88420944 | 15:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I *thought* procps been fixed to NOT remove MP-fremantle-community-pr | 15:27 |
| CatButts | installed: (none) | 15:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://paste.opensuse.org/19538933 | 15:29 |
| CatButts | installed: 21.2011.38-17maemo11+thumb0 | 15:31 |
| CatButts | mp-fremantle-community-pr | 15:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm thumb | 15:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sorry no idea | 15:32 |
| CatButts | oh well, sod it | 15:32 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I think thumb isn't for me since i'm not competent enough to consider all the implications it introduces | 15:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and honestly I wouldn't want to deal with those even if I were competent enough | 15:34 |
| CatButts | eh, I am more reckles | 15:35 |
| CatButts | I should at least keep a list of applications installed | 15:35 |
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| CatButts | for when Maemo goes tits-up | 15:35 |
| CatButts | when I have little attachment to the way things are currently set up, I behave recklessly | 15:37 |
| CatButts | when it has grown on me(like my crusty windows PC), I become reluctant to change anything drastic | 15:40 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | makes sense :-) | 15:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | could you please pastebin result of `apt-get -s procps`? | 15:58 |
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| CatButts | ok | 16:06 |
| CatButts | invalid operation procps | 16:08 |
| CatButts | :p | 16:08 |
| CatButts | I'm missing an option | 16:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | install, sorry | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | `apt-get -s install procps` | 16:44 |
| CatButts | apt-get -s install procps | installog.txt | 16:44 |
| CatButts | how's this | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but it seems this won't yield useful info on why exactly procps wants to uninstall mp-fremantle-community-pr | 16:45 |
| CatButts | oh derp | 16:47 |
| CatButts | it's > | 16:47 |
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| MaemoButts | https://pastebin.com/DasWmM7v | 16:54 |
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| CatButts | nothing good here | 16:56 |
| CatButts | except for the fact that I have naughty repos left open :P | 16:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | apt and dpkg tools are such a crap. No useful diagnostic output for in-depth analysis. NFC if procps conflicts mp-fremantle-community-pr or a property of mp-fremantle-community-pr and in which one | 16:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, reading https://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1942440 makes me weep | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# apt-cache depends mp-fremantle-community-pr|grep procps | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Depends: busybox-symlinks-procps | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | don't ask me how to fix that | 17:15 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 feels massive headache http://paste.opensuse.org/86359988 - prolly getting too old for such shit | 17:23 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess Pali or freemangordon or a few others in here could shed more light on this issue | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~jrtools | 17:26 |
| infobot | jrtools is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ^F ps | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ### breaks cssu-t5.1 MP, so it's commented out. Use on own peril: | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ### allegedly fixed in mp-fremantle-community-pr 21.2011.38-1Tmaemo11 | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | apt-get install procps | 17:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's a reasin I try to record stuff on this wikipage: I tend to forget details myself | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | raisin* | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | CatButts: you're free to install and accept removal of your MP, and just re-install the MP prior to running next MP update (implicitly removing procps again), then after MP update you can install procps again and hope it won't remove MP again vsince it got fixed in thumb-MP too by then | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: could you have a look ^^^ thumb MP conflicts with procps | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm a total debian washout but I *think* for that reason they invented "alternatives" | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | MESSYvox | 17:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | box even | 17:36 |
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