IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2017-11-26

*** Kabouik- has joined #maemo00:12
*** Kabouik_ has quit IRC00:14
*** sunshavi has joined #maemo00:16
*** jkepler has quit IRC00:19
*** eijk_ has joined #maemo00:29
*** shentey has quit IRC00:41
*** Kabouik- has quit IRC01:04
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo01:07
*** sunshavi has quit IRC01:12
CatButtsoh hey, I gots a silly idea01:40
CatButtsregarding key setup in maemo01:40
CatButtsfor applications01:40
CatButtshave an application that has you press all keys on your keypad, one by one, and make a profile01:41
CatButtshave application be invokable from other applications for two things01:42
CatButts1. this initial sensing of the keys01:42
CatButts2. helping application set up its own keys01:43
CatButtsthe key setup would be visually assisted01:43
CatButtswith a mock keypad on the screen01:43
CatButtsthe correct placement of the keys is aided by the initial sensing01:44
*** eijk_ has quit IRC01:51
*** sunshavi has joined #maemo01:52
MaxdamantusSeems like an unnecessary amount of effort for an interface people would rarely use.02:12
MaxdamantusYou should already be able to bind things to keys using something like `xbindkeys`, which is probably easy enough for most N900/maemo users.02:12
*** sunshavi has quit IRC02:13
CatButtsless user, more programmer making his application02:16
CatButtsa way to conveniently deal with discrepancies in key layout02:17
CatButtsby having user press ALL the keys02:17
CatButtsin order02:17
MaxdamantusYou mean the user is forced to press all keys before being able to use the device?02:24
CatButtsbeing forced to press all the keys before using application02:31
CatButtsor rather, one application, with the rest benefiting from stored config02:31
MaxdamantusI don't really understand what the purpose is.02:32
MaxdamantusIs it to ensure that users are using a keyboard layout they specifically want?02:32
MaxdamantusI imagine most people would probably just use whatever is provided. The decision for where most keys go is pretty much completely arbitrary.02:32
MaxdamantusThe fact that it's fairly arbitrary is basically solved by just having a standard layout that everyone just uses.02:33
CatButtsit's to give application view of where all keys are02:33
MaxdamantusYou can change that if you really want (I did, since I'm used to Dvorak, not QWERTY, and I also mapped all remaining printable ASCII characters to keys)02:34
MaxdamantusWhy would an application care where the keys are?02:34
MaxdamantusIf it cares about where keys are, it must be specific to N900, in which case it should be using key codes instead of key symbols.02:34
MaxdamantusIt shouldn't need to care what the mapping is between codes and symbols.02:35
Maxdamantusunless it is an application designed for something like the configuration between the two.02:35
CatButtswell, the first stage maps out where everything is02:37
CatButtsthe second stage is setting default keys according to first stage and optionally letting user rebin02:38
MaxdamantusAre you talking about so that maemo is device-agnostic?02:40
CatButtsdevice agnostic means OS running on other devices as well?02:42
MaxdamantusYes, on devices other than N90002:42
CatButtsin that case, N900 specific02:42
CatButtsit's not at OS level02:43
CatButtsit's a helper application for other apllications to use02:43
CatButtswith two things to do02:44
CatButts1. do that silly 'press all keys in order' thing if it hasn't been done before(re-requestable if shit don't line up)02:45
*** sunshavi has joined #maemo02:45
CatButts2. provide helping interface for key setup and way to return mapped keys to requesting app02:46
CatButtswith visual aid02:46
MaxdamantusWhat's the point in `1`? You're basically asking the user to produce input that is completely predictable (assuming all users are using an N900)02:46
Maxdamantusit sounds like calibration where there is nothing to actually calibrate.02:47
*** florian has quit IRC02:47
CatButtsaren't returned keycodes different depending on whatever mapping you have?02:48
CatButtsyes, it's a calibration step02:48
MaxdamantusIf a screen calibration asks you to press in a particular position, it's because the screen calibration tool isn't sure extactly what numbers will be produced if the user presses where he/she thinks that place is.02:48
Maxdamantusbut in this case, the program should know exactly what input will be produced when someone presses a particular key.02:49
MaxdamantusIf I press the top left key on my device, it will produce the same key code as if you pressed the top left key on your device.02:50
Maxdamantusand a program could easily be hardcoded with that information.02:50
CatButtswhat about anything inbetween?02:50
CatButtswhat about up-down-left-right02:51
MaxdamantusYou don't bother gathering data for things you already know.02:51
MaxdamantusYes, those should also produce the same input on all N900 devices.02:51
Maxdamantusat a hardware level, the keyboard is just a 2D grid of buttons.02:52
CatButtsdifferent keycode will be produced when same key is pressed with different mappings02:52
CatButtsthat's the point02:52
MaxdamantusIf you press the button with the same coordinates on two different N900 devices, it will produce the same electronic signals to the CPU.02:52
MaxdamantusNo. Keycode is independent of mapping (at least at an Xorg level)02:53
MaxdamantusThe keycode is determined by the keypad driver in Linux, which should behave the same way across devices.02:53
MaxdamantusThe thing that's configured differently because of different keyboard layouts is the mapping between keycodes and keysyms, which happens in Xorg.02:54
Maxdamantuswhen you receive a keyboard event in X11, you get the keycode, then you can look up the keysym.02:55
CatButtsso an application can listen to either keycode or keysym?02:55
CatButtsin this case the first stage becomes useless02:56
MaxdamantusTry running `xev`02:56
Maxdamantusit will show you both the "key code", which is just some number reported by the kernel, independent of you keyboard layout.02:56
MaxdamantusIt'll also show the "key sym", which is how applications should generally interpret that key code (eg, as the letter 'a' or the escape key)02:57
CatButtsso this theoretical application is now reduced to pretty, unified interface for games to receive keymappings from03:00
*** pkill9 has quit IRC03:17
OksanaaI am quite annoyed at how physically frail Nokia N900's back cover is. Battery cover.03:22
OksanaaPlastic hook can be broken off, camera lens cover may stop spring-ing properly into open-closed positions, and back-stand may be broken out of the plastic, too.03:23
OksanaaBesides the magnet wishing to come unglued, which is relatively easy to fix.03:24
OksanaaI have just received a Nokia N900 with broken case. MicroUSB port works (for charging, at least; will try flashing later), screen is fine if slightly scratched (I applied a screen protector immediately upon receiving the device). Major damage? Back cover misses a triangle of plastic (no clue how it03:27
OksanaaAnd it's difficult to find N900's back cover being sold. Whole case? Easy. Battery cover only? Difficult. I could check again...03:28
Oksanaahappened, innards seem to be fine), back-stand shows its sharp metal pointy ends, and plastic hooks are broken off.03:28
OksanaaI wish Mugen or somebody else continued to make N900 battery covers.03:28
OksanaaBecause I would buy more than one.03:28
OksanaaStylus is much easier to source.03:29
*** dafox has quit IRC04:16
*** xorly has quit IRC04:27
*** auenf has quit IRC04:51
*** auenfx8 has joined #maemo04:51
*** trumee has quit IRC04:58
*** trumee has joined #maemo05:00
*** auenfx8 has quit IRC05:06
*** auenf has joined #maemo05:10
*** Pali has quit IRC05:23
*** sunshavi has quit IRC05:39
*** auenf has quit IRC05:41
*** auenf has joined #maemo05:43
*** Kabouik has quit IRC05:48
*** trumee has quit IRC05:57
*** trumee has joined #maemo06:01
*** sunshavi has joined #maemo06:18
*** Birchy has quit IRC08:32
*** cyteen has quit IRC09:09
*** crazyguy` has quit IRC10:00
*** Maxdamantus has quit IRC10:02
*** Maxdamantus has joined #maemo10:03
*** jkepler has joined #maemo10:39
*** shentey has joined #maemo10:39
*** Wikiwide has joined #maemo11:40
*** Wikiwide has quit IRC11:52
*** Wikiwide has joined #maemo11:53
WikiwideI didn't re-install modrana. 44MB of dependencies? No thank you...11:53
WikiwideMappero looks nice, though. But not quite hildon-ised. Just look at its "Full screen" button...11:54
WikiwideGeePS doesn't cache tiles for offline storage, right? Will uninstall it.11:55
WikiwideAlso, is it possible that a problem with light sensor causes excessive brightness of display and drains battery way too quickly?11:57
*** Wikiwide has quit IRC12:03
*** cyteen has joined #maemo12:06
*** spiiroin has quit IRC12:12
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo12:15
*** Pali has joined #maemo12:17
*** Kabouik has quit IRC12:19
*** spiiroin has joined #maemo12:24
*** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo12:40
*** troulouliou_div2 has quit IRC12:43
*** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo12:43
*** xy2_ has joined #maemo12:46
*** troulouliou_div2 has quit IRC12:49
*** Maxdamantus has quit IRC13:26
*** spiiroin has quit IRC13:26
*** Maxdamantus has joined #maemo13:27
*** xorly has joined #maemo13:29
*** cyteen has quit IRC13:30
*** cyteen has joined #maemo13:31
*** florian_kc has joined #maemo13:32
*** Wikiwide has joined #maemo13:34
*** Wikiwide has quit IRC13:37
*** Wikiwide has joined #maemo13:38
WikiwideTired. Tired. Tired.13:38
*** spiiroin has joined #maemo13:39
*** Wikiwide has quit IRC13:43
DocScrutinizer05CatButts: (keymaps) learn the basics! the hw keycodes are (surprise!) *hardware* defined and immuatable on a certain hw platform. It's only higher layers that assign different chars to t hw keycode, usually according to what you print on your keycaps13:48
DocScrutinizer05oooh, seems somebody on my ignore list helped sorting stuff and contributed a useful pointer to "keysym". Pretty unusual13:50
CatButtswatcha piss him off with? :P13:51
MaxdamantusHe'd be surprised .. the reason I'm actually on his ignore list was because I was trying to figure out what program was responsible for producing vibration in response to touchscreen presses and he kept insisting it was Xorg and I kept insisting it was an external program.13:52
*** spiiroin has quit IRC13:53
CatButtsso, from application programmer perspective, you get access to both hw keycodes and mapped keys13:53
Maxdamantus(and it was an external program; maemo-xinput-sounds or something along those lines)13:53
MaxdamantusEh, internet DCed again.13:53
CatButtsthen the calibration step I yapped about can become automagic13:54
DocScrutinizer05check xev, very useful app13:54
CatButts>sh: xev not found13:57
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# apt-cache search xev13:58
DocScrutinizer05x11-utils - X11 utilities13:58
DocScrutinizer05~pkg x11-utils13:59
infobotpkg is probably
DocScrutinizer05also see
CatButtsoh sweet, it has xkill14:05
* CatButts tries it on flash 10 player14:15
CatButtsI guess it's only good when bound to a key14:19
*** dafox has joined #maemo14:31
DocScrutinizer05it'sit particularly pointless on hildon desktop which doesn't support the usual focus setting by clicking with mouse into the window, since there's always just one fullscreen window with focus in front14:48
DocScrutinizer05then, maemo has "kill recent task" OWTTE in powerbuttonmenu, and the task switcher offers killing tasks as well14:48
DocScrutinizer05so xkill is useless at best, probably rather not compatible at all14:50
CatButtsI make do with htop, so far14:50
CatButtsxkill worked fine on the console that summoned it :P14:51
DocScrutinizer05lol, yeah. since that consile has the focus14:51
CatButtsI imagine you are suppose to assign it to a key combination for it to be of any use14:51
*** eMHa_ has quit IRC14:52
*** xy2_ has quit IRC14:53
DocScrutinizer05not really, it should check the X-event cueue for mouse LMB clicks (as seen by e.g. xev, I leave it to you for an exercise to figure how to make your won xkill using xev in a script, with awk and kill) and find the process owning the window to kill it. Obviously this concept is prone to fail completely on hildon14:55
CatButtssounds like a work of masochism if all I am going to get failure :p15:08
CatButtswhere is proximity sensor located on the n900?15:11
DocScrutinizer05sys fs15:11
CatButtsphysically, I mean15:11
CatButtsI want to use that instead of keyboard combos15:11
DocScrutinizer05ooh damn you! my nice paste ;-P15:12
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# find /sys -name proximity15:12
DocScrutinizer05portrait mode upper left corner, next to camera and ALS15:12
DocScrutinizer05err landscape mode, sorry15:13
DocScrutinizer05watch cat /sys/bus/platform/devices/proximity/state15:15
CatButtsah, bueno15:16
CatButtsit works15:17
CatButtsunlike ShortcutD15:17
DocScrutinizer05watch -d -n "0,5" cat /sys/bus/platform/devices/proximity/state15:17
CatButtsinvalid number 0,515:19
DocScrutinizer05YMMV, regarding decimal15:19
DocScrutinizer05try 0.515:19
DocScrutinizer05if that fails too, get beter `watch` bibary15:19
DocScrutinizer05if that fails too, get better `watch` binary15:20
DocScrutinizer05or live with messybox limitations and use interval <INTEGER>15:22
DocScrutinizer05sorry, no idea where from I installed my `watch` binary15:23
CatButts hmmmmm15:25
DocScrutinizer05hmm makes sense15:25
CatButtsI have the oportunity to type N and avoid a pottential fudge-up15:26
DocScrutinizer05I *thought* procps been fixed to NOT remove MP-fremantle-community-pr15:27
CatButtsinstalled: (none)15:27
CatButtsinstalled: 21.2011.38-17maemo11+thumb015:31
DocScrutinizer05hmm thumb15:32
DocScrutinizer05sorry no idea15:32
CatButtsoh well, sod it15:32
*** Maxdamantus has quit IRC15:33
*** Maxdamantus has joined #maemo15:33
DocScrutinizer05I think thumb isn't for me since i'm not competent enough to consider all the implications it introduces15:34
DocScrutinizer05and honestly I wouldn't want to deal with those even if I were competent enough15:34
CatButtseh, I am more reckles15:35
CatButtsI should at least keep a list of applications installed15:35
*** shentey has quit IRC15:35
CatButtsfor when Maemo goes tits-up15:35
CatButtswhen I have little attachment to the way things are currently set up, I behave recklessly15:37
CatButtswhen it has grown on me(like my crusty windows PC), I become reluctant to change anything drastic15:40
*** pkill9 has joined #maemo15:42
DocScrutinizer05makes sense :-)15:45
*** NotKit has joined #maemo15:55
*** xorly has quit IRC15:57
*** TheKit has quit IRC15:58
DocScrutinizer05could you please pastebin result of `apt-get -s procps`?15:58
*** xorly has joined #maemo16:01
CatButtsinvalid operation procps16:08
CatButtsI'm missing an option16:26
*** xes__ has joined #maemo16:38
*** xes_ has quit IRC16:41
DocScrutinizer05install, sorry16:43
DocScrutinizer05`apt-get -s install procps`16:44
CatButtsapt-get -s install procps | installog.txt16:44
CatButtshow's this16:44
DocScrutinizer05but it seems this won't yield useful info on why exactly procps wants to uninstall mp-fremantle-community-pr16:45
CatButtsoh derp16:47
CatButtsit's >16:47
*** MaemoButts has joined #maemo16:54
*** MaemoButts has quit IRC16:54
CatButtsnothing good here16:56
CatButtsexcept for the fact that I have naughty repos left open :P16:57
*** Maxdaman1us has joined #maemo16:59
*** Maxdamantus has quit IRC16:59
DocScrutinizer05apt and dpkg tools are such a crap. No useful diagnostic output for in-depth analysis. NFC if procps conflicts mp-fremantle-community-pr or a property of mp-fremantle-community-pr and in which one16:59
*** eijk_ has joined #maemo16:59
DocScrutinizer05honestly, reading makes me weep17:11
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# apt-cache depends mp-fremantle-community-pr|grep procps17:14
DocScrutinizer05  Depends: busybox-symlinks-procps17:14
DocScrutinizer05don't ask me how to fix that17:15
*** spiiroin has joined #maemo17:19
*** spiiroin has joined #maemo17:20
*** shentey has joined #maemo17:22
* DocScrutinizer05 feels massive headache - prolly getting too old for such shit17:23
DocScrutinizer05I guess Pali or freemangordon or a few others in here could shed more light on this issue17:26
infobotjrtools is probably
DocScrutinizer05^F ps17:26
DocScrutinizer05### breaks cssu-t5.1 MP, so it's commented out. Use on own peril:17:28
DocScrutinizer05### allegedly fixed in mp-fremantle-community-pr 21.2011.38-1Tmaemo1117:28
DocScrutinizer05apt-get install procps17:28
DocScrutinizer05there's a reasin I try to record stuff on this wikipage: I tend to forget details myself17:29
DocScrutinizer05CatButts: you're free to install and accept removal of your MP, and just re-install the MP prior to running next MP update (implicitly removing procps again), then after MP update you can install procps again and hope it won't remove MP again vsince it got fixed in thumb-MP too by then17:31
DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: could you have a look ^^^ thumb MP conflicts with procps17:32
DocScrutinizer05I'm a total debian washout but I *think* for that reason they invented "alternatives"17:34
DocScrutinizer05box even17:36
*** pkill9 has quit IRC17:40
*** shentey has quit IRC17:59
*** shentey has joined #maemo18:00
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo18:14
*** Kabouik_ has joined #maemo18:15
*** Kabouik has quit IRC18:19
*** sunshavi has quit IRC18:23
*** florian_kc has quit IRC18:33
*** Kabouik_ has quit IRC18:59
*** Kabouik has joined #maemo19:00
*** pagurus has quit IRC19:14
*** pagurus has joined #maemo19:15
*** eijk_ has quit IRC19:26
*** shentey has joined #maemo19:54
*** shentey has quit IRC20:15
*** Cor-Ai has quit IRC20:17
*** Cor-Ai has joined #maemo20:19
*** florian_kc has joined #maemo21:14
*** Trizt has quit IRC21:26
*** Trizt has joined #maemo21:27
*** Trizt has quit IRC21:34
*** sunshavi has joined #maemo21:53
*** Trizt has joined #maemo22:07
*** Kabouik_ has joined #maemo22:39
*** Trizt has quit IRC22:40
*** Kabouik has quit IRC22:41
*** CatButts has quit IRC22:50
*** CatButts has joined #maemo22:51
*** pkill9 has joined #maemo22:52
*** Trizt has joined #maemo23:07
*** Trizt has quit IRC23:09
*** Trizt has joined #maemo23:10
*** yosafbridge has quit IRC23:25
*** yosafbridge has joined #maemo23:31
*** yosafbridge has quit IRC23:33
*** yosafbridge has joined #maemo23:38
*** Trizt has quit IRC23:55
*** Trizt has joined #maemo23:56

Generated by 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at!