IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2017-09-02

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WikiwideNot sure exactly what was the change, maybe switch fromactivesync mail to imap mail, but uptime is 2 days again (well, almost: 1 day 23 hours 21 minutes; but it's possible it will stay switched on for 40 more minutes).00:07
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WikiwideSome time ago, uptime used to be around 1 day.00:20
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Vajbhoho. Got in to whatsapp. Used kerio's solution. Virtualbox+android 6.0 image.08:37
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Enrico_MenottiVajb I have seen your comment about whatsapp. Could you please share details?11:20
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jkeplerHi folks!11:25
jkeplerI just got an email from Microsoft that my older version of Skype, Skype for Windows 7.‍17-7.‍30, will no longer work as of September 4th. We don't have any Windows machines in our house (I run exclusively Debian, and my wife uses Mac OS (which I tolerate as its based on BSD)).11:27
jkeplerIs the Skype interface in my N900 what Microsoft is referring to?11:27
jkeplerIf so, is there a way to upgrade the Skype services in Maemo so that they'll keep working with Skype? (Or is this my chance to try and nudge my parents and friends toward FOSS video call software?)11:29
paijoHmm I dont know sorry11:30
paijoI'm waiting someone ported line chat to maemo11:31
Wizzupjkepler: if they indeed deprecate the n900 version, then this is your chance to switch to FOSS video call sw11:33
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VajbEnrico_Menotti: i downloaded android-x86_64-6.0-r3.iso and ran it on virtualbox. Then i installed whatsapp on tablet and followed on app instructions to use it without mobile.11:54
Vajbnow if only i could get remote ssh from n900 to my virtualbox running android :D11:55
VajbEnrico_Menotti: and default browser crashed when i tried to download whatsapp.apk and i had to install firefox also.11:58
paijoWhat apps do you use to remote the android12:00
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sdf11After having changed over to Linux a year ago I can't keep myself from noticing that for one or another reason, working on Windows has been (and is) far more productive. For instance, the file explorer I use now is Nemo, which has the best features of both Thunar and Nautilus. My main issue with Nemo right now is when I'm looking for a file, I star12:10
sdf11t to type the name to find it but if I misstype I have to backspacke out the whole search query and it never goes away, this is only an issue in Nemo and I haven't found any way to turn it off. Other file explorers have stupid issues like Nautilus will freeze my whole PC everytime I right-click and no easy way to open terminal in current directory12:10
sdf11& extract multiple ZIP files, etc. As far as the Desktop goes, I'm not sure but I feel something is terribly off, right now I'm using Xubuntu (XFCE) which so far has been the only somewhat stable window manager. For compositor I use none, I tried Compton but even Compton doesn't perform well with 144hz. I have a display and a TV connected, everytim12:10
sdf11e I wanna switch audio output between them I have to switch it manually for every running application. TL;DR: How do I make my Xubuntu more productive and/or genuinely FEEL more like Windows / work better?12:10
paijoTry to move to KDE12:12
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sdf11KDE Neon?12:12
paijoI prefer kde than xfce12:12
sdf11I've tried KDE, it does NOT work well unless I reinstall to a different distro like KDE Neon12:12
paijoTry kubuntu12:12
paijoBundled with kde12:13
sdf11I have, it's missing a lot of theming options and options in general12:14
sdf11but I installed it from Ubuntu12:14
sdf11(but I did add the PPA)12:14
paijoHmm probably your instalation is corrupt12:14
sdf11I remember12:14
sdf11my main issue with KDE is12:14
Vajbor try devuan with mate12:14
paijoTry fresh install with kubuntu12:14
sdf11that KWIN will ONLY run 100Hz12:14
Vajbor anything with mate12:15
sdf11I have still not found a way to get kwin to run at 144hz/unlimited12:15
paijoHmm i don't know that kwin12:15
sdf11even manually setting the limit to any number doesn't matter, it caps at 10012:15
sdf11so frustrating12:15
sdf11I've tried Mate, I've been trying pretty much all of it X'D12:15
sdf11I don't remember the issue with Mate but definitively had issues with them all, especially compositor issues12:16
sdf11even Compton doesn't work well with 144hz12:16
paijoTry from fresh instalation if you want to enjoy12:16
sdf11I hate reinstalling ;(12:16
paijoOr you can try instalation to vm12:17
sdf11yeah well12:17
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sdf11I think 1 of the issues is that LTS is so fucking old, should switch to a rolling release as I bet the more "bleeding edge" is more stable than the LTS crap (for desktop)12:17
paijoWhich ubuntu version do you use12:18
sdf11I tried upgrading to 16.10 -> 17.04 but it keeps telling me that there's no available upgrade or whatever, and I checked my settings manually that the upgrade path is set to NORMAL and everything :/12:19
paijoTechically there a lot of problem when you install to the last version of desktop environment  when your distro from last year version12:19
paijoTry to upgrade to 17.xx12:20
sdf11that's what imma gonna do12:20
sdf11if it will let me12:20
sdf11okay so I changed from LTS to "Any"12:20
sdf11and will try now12:20
sdf11in a sec12:20
sdf11dist-upgrade: command not found12:21
sdf11ill figure it out12:22
sdf11what's a good file manager?12:22
paijoI found an article on omgubuntu12:22
paijoOn how to upgrade to 1712:23
sdf11Nautilus = crap (freezes system on right-click for 1 second at a time), Thunar = crap, Nemo = crap (bogous search + VERY laggy to use e.g. SFTP)12:23
paijoI love dolphin12:23
sdf11I suppose that's the only option left12:23
sdf11i've tried all 10 of them or whatever12:23
sdf11some I really really like12:24
sdf11but I can't get used to the Mac esque12:24
sdf11file manager with the trees and shit12:24
paijoI don't know that12:25
paijoMostly using terminal12:25
sdf11alright im upgrading to 16.10 then 17.04, works this time, didn't on Ubuntu (before i reinstalled haha)12:25
sdf11yeah I love12:25
sdf11but FUCK me if I'm gonna learn VIM controls12:25
sdf11I tried ;(12:25
sdf11VimFX for Firefox addon too is so fuuuucking sweet but I am too dumb12:25
paijoGood luck12:25
sdf11or well the issue was12:25
sdf11I have European keyboard layout12:25
sdf11VIM is US only12:26
sdf11VIM keys are based on U.S. keyboard layout12:26
sdf11my keyboard is not a U.S. keyboard :/ so the layout is messed up for me12:26
* Wizzup looks at hjkl12:26
Wizzupis the same for uk,nl,us keyboards12:27
Wizzupand probably for many more12:27
sdf11like ; : keys12:27
Wizzupnot the mention the extreme ease it is to remapping keys12:27
sdf11are super different12:27
Wizzuphow does vim even use ;12:27
Wizzupthat makes no sense12:27
sdf11I have to do shift period to get :12:27
Wizzupwhat does that have to do with vim?12:27
WizzupI've used vim for more than 10 years and I am european, and never had an issue with it12:28
sdf11maan u tellin me rn im full of excuses12:28
WizzupRegardless of the keyboard layout12:28
WizzupYes, you are12:28
sdf11n im just lying to myself to procrastinate12:28
sdf11what country you from ?12:28
sdf11maan I know .. I need to work on myself, forreal12:28
WizzupI've typen on al major european keyboard layouts, and it's all fine for vim12:28
xy2_ggdG yourself12:28
sdf11maan :( you know how hard I get when I see people using i3, ranger and VIM?!12:29
WizzupI don't think I want to know...12:29
sdf11they spend 30 seconds doing 30 mins of work12:29
sdf11& look at me, fucking peasant with his mouse, barely knows regex12:30
sdf11for christs sake, I'm using a fucking WEB CLIENT for IRC12:31
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sdf11okay now there's no more excuses lol12:34
sdf11quick question, IOMMU pci-e passthrough, can I run my Linux on the iGPU and Windows on GTX 980Ti (via Passthrough) (and what software/how do i even do this) or should I buy a secondary GPU (well I might have to anyway since my monitor is 144hz, but dunno if I need that for anything but games but remains to be seen), I have some 6970's laying around12:38
sdf11 but not enough power molex or whatever connectos on my psu12:38
freemangordonPali: have a couple of minutes? while trying to build mce on upstream, I end up with a dependency to hald-addon-bme. ANd there is no more hal. I wonder what is  the best way to deal with that. u-power?12:42
freemangordonWizzup: the same question ^^^12:42
Paliyes, I'm there12:43
freemangordongodd, see the question ^^^12:43
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Paliif you need replacement for hal in current debian/ubuntu, then yes upower is probably the best replacement for battery12:44
freemangordonmce in mer has battery-upower codule12:44
freemangordonbut is has battery-bme module as well :)12:44
Paliideally drop whole bme stuff12:45
Paliwe already moved n900 drivers into kernel12:45
Paliwhich uses standard power supply interface12:45
freemangordonyes, I know :)12:45
freemangordonoh, mer mce has bme-dbus-names.h in it12:45
Paliso upower should be able to handle it12:45
freemangordonok, yet another thing to rewrite :(12:46
Palibut it is probably hard to simulate old bme dbus interface (e.g. signals)12:46
freemangordonwhy do you think that? I see nothing special here
freemangordonunless I am missing something12:48
Palithey are just dbus signals + some method for request12:48
Paliupower has different dbus interfac12:48
freemangordonsure, but iiuc mce translates them to mce dbus iface12:48
freemangordonah, you man there are more consumers to bme dbus?12:49
freemangordonso I should write a daemon that does bme<->upower translation?12:50
Palie.g. battery widgets, etc...12:50
Palithat is the qustion12:50
PaliI think that battery widget uses HAL12:50
Paliin original maemo system, bme daemon provides that dbus interface12:50
freemangordonbattery-widget uses hal12:51
Paliin bme replacement, that dbus interface was moved into hald-addon-bme12:51
freemangordonso it should be rewritten as well, or we can use the one from gnome12:51
Paliso that hal plugin provides both: HAL interface and also bme dbus interface12:51
freemangordonit was not movet, it was already there12:51
freemangordondbus iface that is12:52
Paliso if we need compatibility, we need to provide both HAL interface and also bme dbus interface12:52
freemangordonwe can't provide hal12:52
Paliif no, then all things needs to be rewritten12:53
Paliand question is if we really need bme dbus interface?12:53
* Wizzup wonders that too12:53
freemangordonI guess no, but I don;t really know upower12:53
freemangordonPali: there is no hal in modern distros, you know :)12:54
PaliI know12:54
freemangordonmaybe we can move to udev, but does it qorth the effort12:54
* freemangordon goes for more coffee12:54
WizzupHow much effort would it be, any idea?12:54
Paliudev is for devices in /dev/ and for /sys/... events12:55
Paliuopwer is for battery/charge info12:55
freemangordonWizzup: which one? moving mce from bme to upower shouldn't be that hard, as there is already module-upower in mer's mce12:56
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TheKitdoes Mer mce uses upower by default?12:57
freemangordonbut, moving battery applet and who-knows-what-else is hard to be assessed12:57
freemangordonTheKit: NFC12:57
Wizzupbattery applet sounds like it should not be too complicated12:57
freemangordonTheKit: but, I guess it uses whichever is available, as bot bme and upower modules are compiled12:58
freemangordonWizzup: :nod:12:58
Mike11hello all :) has anybody encountered an issue where n900 asks for the WEP passphrase when trying to connect to WPA network? because of this I can't connect to some WPA networks12:59
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Mike11I remember having this issue the first time I had my n900, I tried flashing the device but no luck13:01
freemangordonso any volunteer on that one? :)13:01
Wizzupright now I'm setting up a vm for jenkins and auto builds13:01
Wizzupwill try to see how far I can get tomorrow with parazyd13:01
freemangordonok, so you're out of the equation13:01
freemangordonTheKit: ???13:02
freemangordonhmm, wait, mce should be me13:02
freemangordonPali: WTF is statefs?13:04
Paliwhere you have it?13:05
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Palino idea13:06
PaliI have not hear about it13:06
TheKitfreemangordon, it's FUSE fs used in Mer13:06
freemangordonah, thanks13:06
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Wizzupfreemangordon: btw, you're working with parazyd to get an image for a33 tablets with working mali right?13:08
WizzupI know -you- have it working already13:08
parazydi can try the stuff when i'm back in ams13:08
parazydthe tablet is there13:08
freemangordonok, so the plan is - copy bme dbus-names.h from hald-addon-bme to mce, and copy mer battery-upower from mer's mce to fremantle's13:08
WizzupI have a tablet here13:08
TheKit - statefs13:08
freemangordonPali: Wizzup: ^^^ is that sound ok?13:08
freemangordonWizzup: ah, I just tried allwinner devuan image, I guess I(we) will have to do it once the repos ar up and full of packages so we will be able to install fremantle on allwinner13:10
freemangordonwithout compiling on the device itself as I did back then13:10
WizzupI have pretty powerful arm hw nowaways13:10
freemangordonanyway, what about my question ^^^?13:10
freemangordonre mce and bme13:11
freemangordonI hope they didn't change mce's internals too much13:11
WikiwideAny idea as to why my N900 doesn't recognise DCIM as Camera folder, and instead points to .camera in both Images and File Manager? Camera saves to DCIM, though.13:17
freemangordonWikiwide: you're missing a file, gimme a minute13:17
freemangordonWikiwide: user-dirs.dirs in ~/.config folder13:17
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WikiwideMissing, true.13:19
freemangordonthis is what you should have there13:19
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freemangordonbut I don;t remember if you have to reboot or some xdg-whatever command should be executed13:19
Jeff13I just upgraded from Ubuntu 16.04 straight to 17.04 without doing 16.04 -> 16.10 -> 17.0413:19
Jeff13what the fuck ?? how is that even possible?13:20
WizzupThat is not weird at all...13:20
freemangordonJeff13: .10 are dev releases13:20
freemangordon.04 are LTS13:20
Wizzup17 is not lts13:20
Wizzup16.04 and 18.04 are13:20
Jeff13yaeh but every guide ever says you gotta 16.04 -> 16.10 -> 17.0413:20
Jeff1316.04 and 18.04 is lts13:20
Jeff13i get that :P13:20
WizzupJeff13: I have not seen such a 'every guide ever'13:20
WizzupI often go from 12.04 to 14.04 to 16.0413:20
Jeff1317.04 is not LTS13:21
freemangordonyup, I did 12.04->14.04 on my desktop13:21
Wizzupa LTS is just a normal distro version13:21
Wizzupsupported for a longer time13:21
Jeff13okay fine13:21
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Jeff13omgubuntu can go fuck themselves13:21
freemangordonJeff13: as long as it boots ... :D13:21
Jeff13asking me to restart twice to upgrade twice13:21
Jeff13yeah it booted but13:22
Jeff13networking didn't work :)13:22
Jeff13had to touch /etc/NetworkManager/conf.d/globally managed devices blah blah13:22
freemangordonI guess it works now you're here :)13:22
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Jeff13yeah :(13:22
Jeff13sometimes I miss Windows13:22
NotKitis it impossible to use Mer version?13:23
freemangordonno, you don;t, you just think you miss it13:23
freemangordonNotKit: I guess too much was changed there13:23
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Jeff13well well :/13:23
Jeff13I wish more people used Linux13:23
Jeff13for desktop**13:23
freemangordonand I don;t wanna go through all the commits for the last 6-7 years to see what exactly has changed13:23
Jeff13it's no secret that using Linux for desktop usage SUCKS BIG DICK13:23
WikiwideWhat about laptop usage?13:24
WikiwideDisclaimer: I regularly use CentOS on overpowered desktop.13:24
freemangordonNotKit: maybe, once we have all the stuff in place we can start thinking about using stuff from mer13:24
freemangordonWikiwide: I am using ubuntu 14.04 on my corporate laptop13:25
Jeff13aww maan how do I deal with this crap?? install some PPA's or something ?? The following packages will be REMOVED:13:25
Jeff13  xorg xserver-xorg-core-hwe-16.04 xserver-xorg-hwe-16.0413:25
Jeff13  xserver-xorg-input-evdev-hwe-16.04 xubuntu-core xubuntu-desktop13:25
Jeff13The following NEW packages will be installed:13:25
Jeff13  xserver-xorg-core13:25
paijoCrunchbang user here? Lol13:25
WizzupI use gentoo on all my personal stuff, alpine on servers and containers, ubuntu for one of my jobs, gentoo for the other13:26
Jeff13obviously I won't let that shit run through but yeah how do I fix it so xorg isn't held back13:26
WikiwideI am not the admin, just one of many people using it. Because Windows networking is very inferior when compared against Linux (ssh, sftp, X forwarding...)13:26
freemangordonJeff13: I guess you should read about ubuntu HWE13:26
Jeff13or not ??13:27
freemangordonup to you, ofc13:27
Jeff13pause.. not13:27
Wikiwidefreemangordon : thanks a lot! Worked immediately, no need to write any command lines upon creating the file.13:28
Jeff13Linux Sucks13:29
Jeff13cause Bryan Lunduke says so13:29
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WikiwideI know it is possible to write a Note for a contact in address book. Now, with a suitable telepathy plugin, would it be possible to auto-create contact's directories (optionally unwatched by tracker and .hidden from file manager), where documents received from contact (or sent to the contact) would be put, and then request (from address book) file manager to open the .hidden directory, or Photos to show images from .hidden directory?13:32
Wikiwidewith suitable rtcom* plugin, I guess; it has nothing to do with telepathy.13:33
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DocScrutinizer05maybe a glance at and gives you ideas. Hint: it seems you can add arbitrary properties to a contact13:41
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WikiwideAnd then plugin for photos, to be able to click not only "Camera", "Custom", "All", but also "Contacts" (and select some or all Contacts from the list)13:42
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DocScrutinizer05sorry, lacking context13:43
DocScrutinizer05"gallery", not "photos"?13:44
DocScrutinizer05or is that about telepathy13:44
DocScrutinizer05you could probably add a vcard attribute like "datadir" to contacts in contact db13:45
DocScrutinizer05when somebody sends DCC files, a telepathy/purple/whatever plugin could write those to the path found in contacts db in attribute "datadir"13:47
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Jeff13how do I change mouse speed?13:47
Jeff13I already did this:
Jeff13but now after I updated Xorg my mouse speed is halved and I DO not want mouse acceleration13:48
DocScrutinizer05I'm not entirely sure but I *think* there are plugins to "Contacts" app to handle such stuff in a special way, so you could open filemanager when clicking on the field "datadir"13:48
DocScrutinizer05Jeff13: interesting question. Hildon desktop never been made for mouse, and you don't want any acceleration etc with touch pointer13:50
Jeff13I can't stand acceleration13:50
Jeff13I just want to double my mouse pointer speed13:50
DocScrutinizer05you might want to wait until some user familiar with generic gnome desktop drops by. They might have more clue about that stuff than me13:51
DocScrutinizer05hi Pali! :-))13:52
Palithat tool can be used to set any X property for input device13:52
Palihi! :-)13:52
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DocScrutinizer05Jeff13: listen to Pali, you won't find a more knowledgeable person to help you13:53
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Jeff13had to close firefox bcoz bug when u switch on compositors lol13:54
Jeff13anyhow, resend ur last message13:54
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Enrico_MenottiHello everybody. I'd like to check the versions of the various os layers which are currently installed on my N900 (Maemo). From the file system down to kernel and bootloader steps. For the file system, I can simply go to settings -> about product. All the rest?14:02
DocScrutinizer05for kernel: `uname -a`. For bootloader there's no command to find out the version afaik14:05
DocScrutinizer05for filesystems (unless they are monolithic): `modinfo vfat` etc14:07
Jeff13lol I figured out how to fix the mouse14:07
Jeff13the issue is that it reads xserver-xorg-input-libinput instead of some other shits14:07
Jeff13so just typing a bunch of random ass commands to set random properties and boom it goes fast as fuck, then i redisable the acceleration and it works now magically14:08
Jeff13strange how things work ...14:08
DocScrutinizer05for ubifs maybe somthing like `ubiattach --version`14:08
Jeff13now magically a lot of issues I had are fixed too in 17.04 :) and compton works beautifully now :)14:09
Jeff13fuck yeah14:09
Enrico_MenottiDocScrutinizer05 Ehm I meant system image, not file system, sorry. I mean the actual os components, over the kernel. I get it from settings -> about product, right?14:10
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Enrico_MenottiOk. Kernel: 2.6.28-omap1. OS: 20.2010.36-2. I got these by flashing an image downloaded form, where I found a mirror of Nokia repos.14:14
infobot[#maemo lazyflashing]
Enrico_MenottiI never cared about getting the latest available upgrades/updates.14:14
Enrico_MenottiNow I'm thinking about that.14:14
Enrico_MenottiDo I need to flash again or is there another way? And before that, what are the latest versions and where do you suggest to get them from?14:15
DocScrutinizer05wait what? you found a mirror of nokia repos at
DocScrutinizer05lazyflashing is getting the latest versions for you14:16
infoboti heard jrtools is
DocScrutinizer05may help14:16
Enrico_MenottiSo is it necessary to reflash? No other way?14:17
DocScrutinizer05other way to do what?14:17
Enrico_MenottiGetting the latest versions of kernel and os.14:17
DocScrutinizer05basically no14:17
Enrico_MenottiAh. I thought the seamless software update didn't require flashing, so I could get the cssu in some other way.14:18
DocScrutinizer05you should do a decent backup (use BM *and* hildon backup app), then reflash COMBINED14:18
infobotmethinks cssu is, or (Community Seamless Software Update)14:18
DocScrutinizer05yes, SSU gets you the updates, but not when your current system is of totally unclaer state14:19
Enrico_MenottiWhy unclear?14:20
DocScrutinizer05that's how I understood the info you gave14:20
DocScrutinizer05particularly >>I got these by flashing an image downloaded form, where I found a mirror of Nokia repos.<<  That's not recommended, the canonical way is to use lazyflashing14:21
DocScrutinizer05then proceed to ~jrtool and (as recommended there) fix repos and go CSSU14:22
DocScrutinizer05actually forget about ~jrtools, the instructions are already in ~lazyflashing14:22
Enrico_MenottiI reported the kernel and os versions, right? That should be clear. About please look at, footnote 10 (very bottom of the page). That leads to the flasher, but the system images are around there. If you feel this repository is not reliable, and propose a different one for the flasher, you are welcome in adding that info to the wiki page.14:24
DocScrutinizer05so? I told you the canonical way. I'm not really interested in learning about footnotes14:29
DocScrutinizer05see topic14:30
infoboti guess #maemo lazyflashing is
DocScrutinizer05there's no need for a repository proposal, it's all already there14:31
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Enrico_MenottiOk. When I wrote the wiki for Devuan, I tried to put there a comprehensive info about where to find the various pieces needed in order to reproduce the various steps. I also reported that info about where one may find a working flasher. I'm just proposing to you to have a look at the repository I found on, and if you think it's not suitable to add a better info on the wiki page.14:36
DocScrutinizer05I propose you read and understand
infobotsomebody said tabletsdev was , (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site, or, or
infobotcombined is, like, the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see, or, or
infobotemmc is, like, is or see ~emmc214:40
infobotrefer ~flashing; (also .exe!), or or generally   HARMattan(N9):; list of filenames/md5sums:, or
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DocScrutinizer05if those are outdated and you found yet another repo in, fine. We can update those factoids and the websites that refer to the factoid content (repos). But for lazyflashing all that is irrelevant14:41
DocScrutinizer05Enrico_Menotti: I don't want to share instructions on how to get the latest fiasco images the way lazyflashing does. Read the shellscript and you may (or may not) understand why14:48
DocScrutinizer05anyway the last link in ~combined still works14:51
Enrico_MenottiYes, ok. So, recap. There is this repo: Contains images up to PR1.3. Links to another page with development environment downloads, where I find the flasher-3.5_2.
Enrico_MenottiThese repos seem not that bad, so maybe it is worth to record this info.14:52
DocScrutinizer05pro hint: latest is 1.3.114:52
Enrico_MenottiYes, I know. By the way: does that come from Nokia or is that the code for the CSSU?14:53
DocScrutinizer05backported it from CSSU14:53
Enrico_MenottiAh, so the path was PR1.3 -> CSSU -> PR1.3.1? CSSU being the most updated one?14:54
DocScrutinizer05CSSU introduced a security patch to certman/certs that got adopted by Nokia and published as PR1.3.1 by Nokia14:55
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DocScrutinizer05thus it's irrelevant for installing CSSU if you got PR1.3 or PR.1.3.1 on your device. Anyway CSSU is the source of latest patches14:56
DocScrutinizer05CSSU however doesn't ship fiasco images14:57
Enrico_MenottiRight. So since I have PR1.3, and I give for granted it is properly installed, I don't need to flash. I may go for CSSU via SSU. Right?14:58
DocScrutinizer05there's no fiasco image that has all the updates from CSSU already integrated. The only way to get an up-to-date system is to start with PR1.3(.1) and then install CSSU and run the SSU updates14:59
Enrico_MenottiPerfect. So I will go for ~cssu15:00
infobotmethinks cssu is, or (Community Seamless Software Update)15:00
Enrico_MenottiThanks for the useful discussion and related info. Now F1 qualifications. :) Forza Ferrari!15:02
DocScrutinizer05enjoy! :-)15:02
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DocScrutinizer05Enrico_Menotti: secret stuff:
DocScrutinizer05do NOT post ascii URLs anywhere!!!15:05
DocScrutinizer05or all this will vanish in no time15:05
DocScrutinizer05you know, patent trolls and their spiders :-/15:05
DocScrutinizer05as soon as my logs show suspicious access, that stuff gets locked and this becomes unavailable15:16
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Enrico_MenottiDocScrutinizer05 Is that secret stuff in your local system? I see the combined has more than one update ahead of mine (20.2010.36-2), up to 21.2011.38-1 (is that PR1.3.1?).16:08
DocScrutinizer05that's Pr1.3.1, yes16:09
DocScrutinizer05well, "local"16:10
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Enrico_MenottiSorry, I don't get your advice about URLs. You mean the URL could be ruined by automatic "spam" systems, or that those may read the URL and ruin the target content? And how to post a non-ascii URL? Should I put an image file in the wiki?16:10
Enrico_MenottiBy "local" I mean "not accessible via public Internet".16:11
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paijoIs there any fb chat alternative on maemo16:21
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paijoIsn't that for irc?16:23
APicThe great Alternative for evil Facebook-Chat16:24
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DocScrutinizer05Enrico_Menotti: you don't put that stuff in the wiki17:19
DocScrutinizer05I meant that I will remove that stuff when you do17:20
NotKitmaybe mirror it to Mega, for example?17:21
DocScrutinizer05there's already a truckload of mirrors17:21
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Enrico_MenottiI was trying to recall to myself some things I had found a few months ago about the boot process of the N900. By wandering around over the Internet, and from various places (also mailing lists), I re-constructed the thing: 1. OMAP bootrom; 2. Nokia X-Loader (signed); 3. NOLO; 4. kernel etc. Now the FIASCO image contains, besides kernel and rootfs, three other images: xloader, secondary, and 2nd. The first is the17:23
Enrico_Menotti X-Loader. From the flasher-3.5 help, I think the secondary is NOLO (is this correct?). But what about 2nd? The help says "NOLO cold flasher image". Is this only used when cold flashing?17:23
Enrico_MenottiDocScrutinizer05 Ok, I won't put URLs in the wiki. So where I put them?17:24
DocScrutinizer05you put *my* URLs nowhere17:24
KotCzarnyyou can clone the stuff, but dont go chatting about the source link17:24
DocScrutinizer05how hard is it to understand that patent trolls use google17:25
DocScrutinizer05and I think everybody knows how google works, Buzzword spider17:25
DocScrutinizer05((Is this only used when cold flashing?)) yes17:27
DocScrutinizer05coldflashing means: you need to flash the bootloader (thus 'cold' since the system isn't "warm" from booting yet). T od that you need... the bootloader's flashing algo, which flasher loads to RAM like a rescueOS - this RAM loaded interim bootcode is 2nd17:31
DocScrutinizer05To do*17:31
DocScrutinizer05once coldflashing restored xloader+NOLO (they actually are one chunk in one partition), the normal falshing process can use the working NOLO in flash storage to flash the rest of the image17:34
DocScrutinizer05for more accurate and specific details, ask Pali17:34
Enrico_MenottiOk, so on standard boot we have bootrom -> X-Loader -> Secondary  -> kernel, right? And on cold flash, bootrom -> 2nd uploaded to RAM -> X-Loader + NOLO flashing? Pali, may you confirm, please?17:35
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Enrico_MenottiDocScrutinizer05 You talk about "your" URLs. Sorry, I'm a bit stupid, but I don't understand. May I put the archive URL on the wiki, or not?17:36
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DocScrutinizer05archive is not "my" stuff17:37
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DocScrutinizer05you don't put URLs containing the string "fiasco&co" anywhere17:38
PaliEnrico_Menotti: basically yes, for cold flahs it is bootrom -> uploaded 2nd+nolo to ram --> normal flash xloader+nolo17:39
DocScrutinizer05err fiasco+co17:39
Enrico_MenottiPali Where nolo = secondary, right?17:40
Enrico_MenottiPali One last thing: on normal flash, 2nd is not used, but xloader+nolo are anyway flashed. Right?17:40
DocScrutinizer05and basically NOLO is a u-boot frankenstein17:41
Pali2nd is only for cold flash17:41
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Enrico_MenottiYes, ok. But xloader+nolo are flashed also on normal flash?17:41
DocScrutinizer05no, on normal flashing xloader+NOLO are not touched at all17:41
Paliif you supply full fiasco image, then also xloader and nolo are flashed17:42
Palias they are part of fiasco image17:42
DocScrutinizer05if they were, you'd need coldflash to recover from failed normal flashing that ruined them way more often17:43
PaliI'm sure that when flashing full fiasco image, then also included nolo+xloader are flashed17:43
Palialso cmt image is flashed17:44
DocScrutinizer05maybe NOLO is 'smart' enough to not flash xloader or itself when ther new version is identical17:44
Paliseems no17:44
Paliit flash it always17:44
Enrico_MenottiWhat is cmt? I was wondering about those files.17:44
Palicellular modem17:44
DocScrutinizer05you're sure? did you patch NOLO then flash and verify the patch is gone?17:44
Paliyes, I had patches nolo with different colors17:45
Paliand after flashing full fiasco, it was reverted17:45
DocScrutinizer05ok, that's stupid by NOLO and its authors17:45
Palialso I dumped whole communication between flasher-3.5 and usb protocol17:45
Paliso I saw there that whole xloader and nolo image is sent17:46
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DocScrutinizer05downloading NOLO image doesn't mandate it getting flashed17:46
Palibut you are unable to flash only nolo17:46
Paliyou need to send both xloader and nolo image17:46
Paliand then send command to flash them17:46
DocScrutinizer05yes, since it's one chunk with xloader17:46
DocScrutinizer05one partition17:46
Palinot exactly truth17:47
Palinolo has own partition scheme17:47
Paliand in nolo, xloader and nolo are on different parititons17:47
DocScrutinizer05hmm, I'm prolly too distracted right atm17:47
Palibasically that mtd0 which is visible in linux is divided into mtd0 and mtd1 in nolo17:47
Paliand in nolo then there is mtd2 which is linux's mtd117:48
DocScrutinizer05IroN900:~# cat /proc/mtd17:48
DocScrutinizer05dev:    size   erasesize  name17:48
DocScrutinizer05mtd0: 00020000 00020000 "bootloader"17:48
DocScrutinizer05mtd1: 00060000 00020000 "config"17:48
DocScrutinizer05mtd2: 00040000 00020000 "log"17:48
Paliand everything is shifted17:48
Paliin nolo mtd0 has smaller size17:48
Palinote that mtd parition size is just SW thing17:48
Palihardcoded in kernel17:48
Paliso you can patch kernel to have fully different layout17:49
Palie.g. divide rootfs into more partitions17:49
Palibut because nolo has fixed parition for kernel, you must have kernel image at that offset17:49
Paliotherwise nolo would not boot your custom kernel17:50
DocScrutinizer05but you maybe could merge initrd partition to kernel partition17:50
DocScrutinizer05initfs partiton that is17:50
Palino you cannot, because booting is done by nolo17:51
Palinolo has hardcoded kernel part together with it size17:51
DocScrutinizer05even if NOLO doesn't grok it, it might still allow to load uBoot and have kernel spanning over both partitions17:51
Paliso, yes, you can extend kernel part in linux kernel image, but that would not be visible for nolo17:51
DocScrutinizer05NOLO only needs to 'see' the uBoot part17:52
Palihm.. you could put uboot into kernel part and then teach uboot to see "long" size with initfs17:52
Palibut easier would be tell uboot to loader kernel from initfs :-)17:52
Paliand no need to hack with partition sizes17:53
DocScrutinizer05that's another possibility17:53
PaliDocScrutinizer05: you have qflasher tool and also xloader+nolo images for qemu, so you can look into nolo debug console :-)17:53
Enrico_MenottiPali (About cmt.) Ah. The infamous closed-source code which has not been RE yet, right?17:55
Enrico_MenottiPali What is the qflasher?17:55
Palialso it is signed and probably also encrypted17:55
PaliDocScrutinizer05 would know more?17:55
DocScrutinizer05Enrico_Menotti: cmt is the modem firmware. You don't even consider REing that17:56
DocScrutinizer05yes, afaik cmt firmware is cryptosigned17:56
Paliqflasher is a tool for creating mtd partition dump with filling CAL + supplied images, suitable for booting from qemu17:56
DocScrutinizer05prolly not encrypted17:56
Paliat least downgrading cmt is not possible17:56
DocScrutinizer05you could tell, feeding the cmt stuff to a tool like hexrays17:57
DocScrutinizer05it's also a ARM17:57
DocScrutinizer05google Nokia BB517:59
Enrico_MenottiEhm sorry, but the closed-source layer which needs to be re-written in order to use the modem in a different OS (not Maemo), e.g. Devuan - the one which ofono tries to replace - what is that? The cmt modem firmware may be used on any OS?17:59
Enrico_MenottiPali I didn't understand anything about qflasher, sorry. It's my fault, yes.18:00
DocScrutinizer05Enrico_Menotti: BB5 modem is a complete system on its own. The cmt firmware is the OS for that system. The closed blobs in maemo are for talking to the interface (SSI, ISI protocol)18:01
WizzupThe main thing required for calls on mainline at this point is REing the pulse plugins afaik18:02
DocScrutinizer05cmt itself is not a part of maemo18:02
Wizzupyou can already make basic calls, but the quality is terrible18:02
Enrico_MenottiWizzup Yeah I read that.18:02
DocScrutinizer05the quality suffers from cmtspeech driver not implemented in a correct way, afaik. The audio plugins add a bit to quality but not that much, they mainly add echo cancelation, confort noise, dynamic compression etc18:03
DocScrutinizer05the problem with cmtspeech is: cmt is master, APE is slave. And slave needs to adjust own audio clock according to timing adjust messages sent by master via ISI18:05
DocScrutinizer05*vry* screwed18:05
DocScrutinizer05very* even18:05
DocScrutinizer05the maemo BB5 Nokia crew fscked up that design18:06
DocScrutinizer05the protocol is abysmal18:06
DocScrutinizer05the problems from bashing an existing modem into shape by sledgehammer18:07
Paliiirc nokia "fixed" audio quality by own audio filters18:07
DocScrutinizer05that's a completely different story afaik18:08
KotCzarnypali: LOL18:08
DocScrutinizer05BB5 is a genuine Nokia design18:09
Palisomething which should probably be done in analogue hw or on DSP18:09
DocScrutinizer05used in 5 dozen different phone models18:09
Paliand nokia implemented those filters via vector instructions on cpu18:09
DocScrutinizer05yes, those are the PA-plugins18:10
Paliand that is another mistake18:10
DocScrutinizer05but again, those are only marginally contributing to speech quality18:10
Palibut very important18:10
DocScrutinizer05not really18:10
Paliwithout them audio quality is terrible18:10
DocScrutinizer05did you tests by replacing them with dummies while keeping the genuine cmtspeech stuff?18:11
Palinemo n900 port did it18:12
Palithey had oficial recompiled binaries of those plugins for nemo18:12
DocScrutinizer05all terrible audio I've heard (of) was due to defects in cmtspeech, not due to missing or defective PA_nokia18:12
Paliit is possible that those plugins are trying to fix also those defects... in software18:13
Palinokia (c) solution18:13
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if wireshark has dissectors for cmtspeech ISI18:13
DocScrutinizer05not possible18:13
DocScrutinizer05you can't fix packet loss with a filter18:14
Palitry to ask pavelm, he did lot of work with cmtspeech and has own system with audio call support, so probably have also some cmtspeech isi parser18:14
DocScrutinizer05anyway folks, I'm busy. Sorry. o/18:15
DocScrutinizer05on a last bright sidenote: Neo900 has plain PCM audio on modem, no nifty plugins and no cmtspeech needed18:16
DocScrutinizer05N900 cmt is a PITA18:17
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DocScrutinizer05 - I could trash about 30% of assumptions in there, but that'S why cmtspeech is so terrible18:21
DocScrutinizer05slide 9  and on18:23
DocScrutinizer05>>Cellular Modem sends up-link timing adjustment messages<<18:23
DocScrutinizer05>>Align up-link buffering according to message ||  Change UL timing with 5 ms granularity<<18:24
DocScrutinizer05cmtspeech nightmare18:24
DocScrutinizer05totally fsckd up18:25
Palithis design is/was used for symbian phones?18:25
DocScrutinizer05no, only for maemo afaik18:26
DocScrutinizer05symbian never had an APE centric audio approach18:27
DocScrutinizer05actually on symbian you hardly find devices with an APE18:27
DocScrutinizer05Symbian AIUI regularly run INSIDE the modem18:28
DocScrutinizer05the audio via SSI / ISI was a brute force adaption of BB5 for maemo / NIT afaik18:29
DocScrutinizer05and the design of this unique protocol been FUBAR18:30
DocScrutinizer05they should have used normal PCM instead, or at _very_ least add a decent FIFO buffer for audio data, both directions18:31
DocScrutinizer05into the modem18:31
DocScrutinizer05I mean, audio in realtime via a network (ISI via SSI), with a timing precision of 5ms, that's INSANE. Particularly when you use no FIFOs and rely to >>Cellular Modem sends up-link timing adjustment messages<<18:33
DocScrutinizer05that's so... WROOOOOONG18:34
Palithat looks like it needs real-time kernel + os18:35
Palito work reliable18:35
DocScrutinizer05that's what you got, with cmtspeech and cgroups and PA18:36
DocScrutinizer05the whole audio mess mainly orginates from this particular idiocy18:37
KotCzarnylast slide is the nail to that coffin18:38
DocScrutinizer05because BB5 Nokia team said "Duh! we can't do this any better way. Take it or leave it"18:38
DocScrutinizer05>>Thanks! to Lennart Poettering for the invitation<< ROTFL indeed18:39
* APic misread BB5 as „BBS“18:39
APicGood old Mailbox-Systems back in the 1990s 😉18:39
Paliwhy on the earth they have not used DSP in n900 for all those audio processing18:40
Palilooking it at, it must be expensive even for neon instructions on cpu18:41
DocScrutinizer05Pali: why on earth they didn't use the already existing DSP *and algos* in *modem*?18:41
PaliI bet they have not got documentation/information18:42
DocScrutinizer05prolly not, yes18:42
DocScrutinizer05[2017-09-02 Sat 17:38:17] <DocScrutinizer05> because BB5 Nokia team said "Duh! we can't do this any better way. Take it or leave it"18:43
DocScrutinizer05but actually the structure on p,15 isn't wrong. The ISI audio interface is18:44
DocScrutinizer05mic EQ and transducer processing belongs to APE. No doubt18:45
DocScrutinizer058<->48 and call audio processing not that much18:45
DocScrutinizer05and the "SSI speeech driver" aka cmtspeech is the real PITA18:46
DocScrutinizer058<->48 could have been done entirely in modem18:47
DocScrutinizer05large parts of "Call Audio Processing" as well18:48
DocScrutinizer05well, then maybe they had to reinvent it in telepathy-sofiasip or whatever18:48
Palisofiasip is for SIP18:49
Paliyou probably mean telepathy-ring18:49
DocScrutinizer05the affiliated RTP stuff then18:49
Palithat is for maemo cellular18:49
DocScrutinizer05I mean SIP/RTP18:49
DocScrutinizer05it's also telephony and aiui uses "Voice source" and "Voice Sink"18:50
DocScrutinizer05that's why I suggest to link Neo900 modem audio as a simulated SIP channel18:52
DocScrutinizer05it would need _very_ little effort to get any arbitrary modem hooked up as a virtual SIP/RTP device and simply pipe RTP to PCM|whatever and SIP to AT|whatever18:53
Enrico_MenottiMen, I'm reading with much interest your conversation. Now I'm starting to understand why phone calls are so hard to do in a different OS.18:54
DocScrutinizer05worst case (dvel *really* lazy) you could run a local asterisk and simply hook up the modem via an asterisk plugin18:54
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DocScrutinizer05Enrico_Menotti: :-D18:55
DocScrutinizer05Enrico_Menotti: maemo has a truckload of optimizations in "middleware" to guarantee flawless phonecalls18:59
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DocScrutinizer05actually the whole maemo5 is very much focused at phonecalls as priority #119:00
DocScrutinizer05from kernel to PulseAudio to GUI19:01
DocScrutinizer05no other OS could even think to compete19:01
DocScrutinizer05linuxy OS19:02
DocScrutinizer05Symbian etc were made for phonecalls to start with, and any other stuff like "apps" etc were only afterthoughts19:03
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DocScrutinizer05generic linux systems fall short of two things: focus on realtime audio, realtime interactive responses, priorization of calls over everything else - and standby time optimization19:06
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DocScrutinizer05for the typical linux, audio is as "challenging" as "play mp3 music without terrible dropouts", and about standby there's not even a real concept yet, only slowly emerging from the laptop/tablet sector which has way lower requirements aka larger batteries19:08
DocScrutinizer05still all laptops and tablets know two states: active and greedy, or suspended and non-responsive19:10
DocScrutinizer05there's no "inactive and extremely power saving but still highly responsive" concept19:10
DocScrutinizer05maemo however does exactly this19:11
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Enrico_MenottiThanks all. Meanwhile there has been a swimming competition going on in Monza at 300 km/h. Unfortunately Ferrari completely lost it. Pole to Luis Hamilton. Congrats for the new world record, ahead of Michael Schumacher.19:16
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DocScrutinizer05now, an hour later, busy for good, cya o/19:17
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Enrico_MenottiBye - have a nice evening. I'm leaving as well. See you all!19:18
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codotneed help20:12
codothow to autoattach in IRC?20:13
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DocScrutinizer05codot: hm?20:34
codotsorry if OOT, is it possible to autojoin channel when there is some activity20:35
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DocScrutinizer05no, you only can autojoin a channel on IRC client startup (actually on server connect)20:37
codotHmm so I cannot get notify and autojoin when I left the channel ?20:38
DocScrutinizer05you need to have joined a channel to detect any activity. Then your IRC client could trigger whatever sort of notification20:38
codotHmm okay.20:39
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codotThanks DocScrutinizer0520:49
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rhn_mk1DocScrutinizer05: my n900 is dry and working :)20:52
rhn_mk1except for the USB ID surge protection IC that I carelessly chipped off20:52
rhn_mk1you hints will help me not make any more stupid mistakes20:52
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sunshaviEnrico_Menotti: I am an f1 fan also 69 was nice23:03
sunshavihamilton # of poles23:04
Enrico_MenottiAh yeah sorry.23:04
Enrico_MenottiA sexy # of poles.23:04
sunshavilol. Well. points only on sunday23:05
Enrico_MenottiYes but without any surprise he will win the race - and probably also the championship, I fear. I expect tomorrow he will overtake Seb in the championship points.23:06
sunshavirace is going to be on dry conditions. So Don't lose your hope23:06
Enrico_MenottiYeah, on dry conditions it's without surprises, I think.23:06
Enrico_MenottiSo the Red Bulls will be a bit backwards... then we have Hamilton, the young guy I don't remember the name, somebody else from Force India, Bottas, and in third row the two Ferrari, right?23:08
sunshaviStroll and Ocon23:08
Enrico_MenottiI hope the Ferrari will be able to overtake Stroll and Ocon, although I fear Ocon is too fast. If they are lucky also Bottas, so Seb may be second or third, in the best case.23:09
sunshaviEnrico_Menotti: on a phone call23:17
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