IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2017-06-06

DocScrutinizer05that should be easy. but honestly I think e-ink paper is better used in independent mode rather than mirroring mode, on N90000:16
DocScrutinizer05the qurstion actually is: what are the planned usecases00:17
DocScrutinizer05I'd run a separate x11 server for e-ink display, and have that "screenshot" as an app within a "window"00:18
DocScrutinizer05you don't have a digitizer on that e-ink display, to operate anything. So you need to resort to the original display anyway for anything meaningful interactive00:20
DocScrutinizer05for e.g. a ebook reader you could configure the reader to show next page (or scroll) via vol+/- for example, and have the text displayed in "mirror display to" app on e-ink paper (could refresh automatically when the primary display gets refreshed). Then you shut down the primary display by simply setting backlight to 0 and maybe even blank it00:23
DocScrutinizer05you can't "just lock the screen" since by definition that stops all running processes from updating their window content - to save energy00:24
DocScrutinizer05any app that doesn't obey this rule wouldn't qualify for maemo-extras in testing00:24
DocScrutinizer05you need a launcher that can start apps on display:1.0 - the e-ink display00:25
DocScrutinizer05this way you could for example have a clock on e-.ink00:26
DocScrutinizer05maemo-notifier could get tweaked to use both displays concurrently00:27
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ff__don't know how use x11 server with UART00:29
DocScrutinizer05err well, it's a question how to implement the framebuffer, no?00:30
ff__essential is what you sed, what are the planned usecases00:31
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ff__as reader text from pdf, doc, it's simple script that will be read block of text from ebook and send it to e-ink each time + /- vol pressed00:35
DocScrutinizer05maybe an inspiration, though aiui the e-ink display can do better than only ascii art:
DocScrutinizer05anyway you see people implemented framebuffers even on ascii-only displays00:37
DocScrutinizer05shouldn't be hard to implement a framebuffer talking to UART00:37
DocScrutinizer05>>This function does the trick of converting the emulated framebuffer into high quality ASCII-art<<00:38
DocScrutinizer05((simple script)) yes, for that you should look into printing (lpr et al)00:48
DocScrutinizer05cups etc exist for maemo, and a UART/serial ascii-only printer is easy to configure in cups00:49
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OksanaDocScrutinizer : Thank you, keeping device battery-less for about 30s resolved the LEDs problem. And, I don't know what's up with battery coin cell, but it forgot time&date (as I expected it would; usually, I speed-swap batteries, to keep it from forgetting temporal location)04:30
L29Ah_it's dead04:30
L29Ah_they're virtually all dead by now afaik04:31
L29Ah_replaceable with a soldering iron tho04:31
hurrianyep, you'll have to replace it with one of those capacitors04:31
hurrian(why weren't these capacitors in the first place?)04:31
L29Ah_because they can't hold for long04:32
L29Ah_having a few orders of magnitude less energy in them04:32
L29Ah_and no one would have expected n900 to be the last successful gnu/linux device by nokia being preserved by a bunch of fans this long04:33
hurrianthe RTC can draw off the main battery even when powered off right?04:33
L29Ah_a tiny bit04:34
DocScrutinizer05the bupbat dies after ~12 monts usually04:36
infobotfrom memory, bupbat is use the capacitive type, LiIon are breaking during 12 months, or, or, or
L29Ah_mine was visibly leaked like a coin battery04:36
DocScrutinizer05yeah, some even leak04:37
DocScrutinizer05either they were a complete crap product, or Nokia and OM soldered them too hot04:37
hurrianI don't think there was any reasonable use case where someone would take the battery/leave it flat for 6 months and still expect alarms to work04:38
DocScrutinizer05it's just been best common practice to use LiMg(?) cell for that04:39
hurrianor maybe LiSOCl2 battery if they're available in the tiny coin form factor04:39
hurrianI've got a powermac G5 that still functions with its original PRAM battery about 15 years on...04:40
DocScrutinizer05when it turned out those are crap, everybody moved to supercaps like ^^^ PAS414HR. Then flat phones with non-removable main battery became fashion and nobody needed any bupbat anymore04:40
DocScrutinizer05s/supercaps like ^^^ PAS414HR/Polyacene supercaps/04:41
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: when it turned out those are crap, everybody moved to Polyacene supercaps. Then flat phones with non-removable main battery became fashion and nobody needed any bupbat anymore04:41
OksanaGiven that my ALS is obscured with a paper sticker (will take another year for it to wear off), I would need a really bright flashlight to get through to the light sensor. Would it make sense, at some time in distant future, to make all these brightness values user-editable (like LED patterns), instead of hard-coded? Or would it be too slow, ineffi04:45
Oksanacient, unreliable?04:45
L29Ah_removing a paper sticker is easier than fixing it in software04:47
OksanaYes, I know. But even when I set brightness at 1/5, and ASL thinks it to be night, I still find the display to be too bright at times (especially when it is night)04:48
hurrianOksana: try baby oil?04:48
hurrianthat's the "gentle" way to dissolve stickers, just takes som time04:49
L29Ah_afair there's a lower limit on the brightness level04:49
L29Ah_not sure if it's a hardware-bound limitation04:49
L29Ah_maybe the brightness range exposed to user is coarser than actual pwm settings range04:50
OksanaYes, brightness level exposed to user in Settings is coarse. Actual brightness is based on both ASL (ambient brightness) and user setting?04:52
* L29Ah_ doesn't remember himself using n900 in actual darkness with accommodated eyes04:52
L29Ah_You don't have permission to access / on this server.04:59 is being a bitch again04:59
L29Ah_the range of influence of asl on the brightness is way too narrow05:04
L29Ah_as for me it should be max(1,asl * user brightness setting)05:05
L29Ah_and shut off the backlight completely when asl shows values over 10klux or so05:05
OksanaOkay... In darkness, have minimum brightness (1), in normal light get brighter together with ambient, in too bright light switch off the backlight (because transreflective?)05:12
DocScrutinizer05L29Ah_: it already does the latter05:38
DocScrutinizer05the minimum is "1" in /sys/class/backlight/acx565akm/brightness05:39
DocScrutinizer05and SpeedEvil considered it too bright05:40
DocScrutinizer05the problem with brightness setting is probably it's a mere PWM power percentage setting (in milliWatt, or % ontime vs offtime with 400Hz PWM) while physiological brightness is logarithmic - you need to half the power to sense any difference in brightness05:43
DocScrutinizer05so: 256, 128, 64, 32, 16, 8, 4, 2, 105:44
DocScrutinizer055 steps are basically OK05:44
DocScrutinizer05for a 8bit linear value05:45
DocScrutinizer05it's the missing steps between 1 and 0 that hurts, I guess05:46
DocScrutinizer05btw it's Ambient Light Sensor05:48
DocScrutinizer05fun factoid re backlight: there are TWO ways to control it: acx565akm/brightness, plus a GPIO or even PWM (I didn't check details) from CPU itself05:51
DocScrutinizer05I also never tried to use the second one05:51
DocScrutinizer05no idea what for the Nokia EEs implemented it05:52
L29Ah_05:43:42]<DocScrutinizer05> the problem with brightness setting is probably it's a mere PWM power percentage setting (in milliWatt, or % ontime vs offtime with 400Hz PWM) while physiological brightness is logarithmic - you need to half the power to sense any difference in brightness05:52
L29Ah_physiological brightness is irrelevant when we're comparing it against illuminance provided by asl05:52
DocScrutinizer05who compares what?05:53
L29Ah_05:38:29]<DocScrutinizer05> L29Ah_: it already does the latter05:53
L29Ah_no, i see it is able to set much lower brightness when it's about to shut the display off completely due to lock timeout05:53
DocScrutinizer05o.O what?05:54
DocScrutinizer05sorry you lost me05:54
DocScrutinizer05or prolly I lost you05:54
DocScrutinizer05the latter == shut off the backlight completely when asl shows values over 10klux or so05:55
L29Ah_oh nvm disregard the timeout thing05:55
L29Ah_it actually does that on the lowest brightness setting05:55
L29Ah_but it is bad you must adjust the brightness settings to the ambient light manually05:56
DocScrutinizer05does what?05:56
DocScrutinizer05I don't get a word of what you say05:56
L29Ah_comes to the brightness level that is used a second before the screen lock timeout05:56
L29Ah_although it's 7, not 105:58
L29Ah_also 0 = 1 on my n90005:58
L29Ah_and the lowest is 205:58
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L29Ah_er, nope05:58
L29Ah_damn timeout05:59
L29Ah_okay, the lowest is 1, but it is never set by the brightness control logic05:59
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L29Ah_and actually 1 seems to be good for a forest under half a moon worth of light06:00
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L29Ah_FUCK06:04 admin is an evil bastard06:06
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parazydfreemangordon: we're almost ready :) yesterday there were two successful devuan installs using the repo that our amprolla made12:07
parazydnow just to finish the updating part, and then we can hopefully use the CI seamlessly12:08
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badcloud-has any one managed to pull off triple boot (CSSU Thumb/Arch/Nitdroid)?12:44
badcloud-I've tried multiple times but have always got stuck when cssu thumb blocks installation of uboot12:47
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badcloud-are there any new phones running maemo these days?13:57
badcloud-kerio: or otherwise, any phones more advanced in hw than the n900?14:06
keriothe neo900 i guess14:06
badcloud-kerio: right, thanks14:06
badcloud-kerio: are you a developer?14:09
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L29Ah_parazyd: where can i read about the devuan status?18:48
parazydwhat kind of status?18:48
L29Ah_what's ready and what has to be done to port devuan to n900 and use all its hardware18:48
parazydnot sure18:49
parazydfreemangordon, Wizzup ^^?18:49
parazydbut i believe most of the hardware works18:49
parazyd... already18:49
L29Ah_can i make calls?18:49
parazydif not all18:49
parazydWizzup mentioned someone did, but with very lousy quality, and pulseaudio18:50
parazydi think machek did18:50
parazydmodem works with ofono18:50
WizzupL29Ah_: audio call is still difficult. most of the other parts just work. sans power saving (afaik) and usb host hacks.18:53
WizzupL29Ah_: but that status is similar to gentoo on my n900. we're chasing devuan to make it easy to use/update/run.18:53
Wizzupcalls wil require further RE if pulseaudio, which might happen, but we first need to get some other things done.18:53
Wizzup'amprolla' was required to be able to properly build pkgs for maemo w/ devuan infra18:54
Wizzupparazyd: the poor quality was -without- pa18:54
L29Ah_who needs pulseaudio anyway18:54
Wizzupif we ge the proper pa pugins ported, it can work.18:54
bencohWizzup: meaning you've tested pavel work on audio/telephony?19:01
bencohpavel's* work19:02
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Wizzupno, I reported on what pavel wrote to me. but I have instructions on how to reproduce.19:04
WizzupI cannot test it now since calls are 2EUR /minute here in hong kong for me19:05
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bencohwait, what?!19:07
bencohinternational roaming?19:08
parazydit's not the EU19:08
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freemangordonL29Ah_: define "port devuan to n900 and use all its hardware". I mean - do you need DE or console only, which HW, etc etc. also, it is not devuan that provides support for the HW, but kernel. see for what is the status19:32
L29Ah_actually i don't know how's ofono doing19:33
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L29Ah_it looked rotten a year or two ago19:33
L29Ah_and i don't know if it's possible to make voice calls w/o it19:34
freemangordonme neither, pavel posted some success, but I don't know the details19:35
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Wizzupbencoh: yeah, international19:42
WizzupL29Ah_: ofono works19:42
Wizzupat least for internet19:42
WizzupI have that working. calls I have not been able to test extensively.19:43
Wizzup'rotting for 1 year' does not seem that bad19:43
bencohL29Ah_: iirc there are several versions/forks of ofono and it didnt sem abandoned last time I checked19:46
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Enrico_Menottifreemangordon Hello. I have been able to apply your patches to gtk+ with quilt. But still does not build. On Sunday I reported here details of the error I get.20:19
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freemangordonEnrico_Menotti: ok, will look at it as soon as I have some spare timr20:27
Enrico_MenottiOk, thank you.20:27
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DocScrutinizer05 o.O22:59
DocScrutinizer05((<freemangordon> L29Ah_: define "port devuan to n900)) thanks!23:02
DocScrutinizer05and when ofono is abandoned, I'd rather prefer to pick FSO every day23:03
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, fso is the mobile devices middleware.
infoboti guess shr is The Stable Hybrid Release (SHR), intended to be a community driven distribution composed of the FSO and some basic applications, that can be configured to use several different graphical toolkits, for example GTK or EFL. SHR is based on the FSO build. At first, SHR was introduced in order to use the Openmoko2007.2 GTK software in combination with the new FSO, but things have changed.23:04
L29Ah_shr is rotten23:07
L29Ah_and is basically gentoo forked long time ago23:07
DocScrutinizer05err wut?23:10
DocScrutinizer05you won't find the 3 months old ultra bleeding edge system that comes with stuff having 20 years of stabilizing/riping23:12
L29Ah_openembedded is a gentoo fork23:13
DocScrutinizer05 has nice building blocks, is *not* rotten, and SHR used FSO since 7+ years to implement dialer and whatnot, also on N90023:13
bencohs/fork/inspired by/23:13
bencohbut yeah, okay ... a *really* long time ago23:14
DocScrutinizer05openembedded is an Angstrom fork23:14
DocScrutinizer05aka "linux for stiching machines"23:15
bencohDocScrutinizer05: nope23:15
bencohangstrom is (used to be) an openembedded-based distribution23:15
bencohbut anyway23:15
DocScrutinizer05or that23:15
L29Ah_ i'd name this rotting23:15
L29Ah_yet worth giving a shot23:16
DocScrutinizer05I don't care what you name it23:16
L29Ah_tell us if you succeed building it23:17
DocScrutinizer05do you follow the "as long as there's no new bug every week, it must be abandoned" definition of rotten?23:17
bencohL29Ah_: btw23:17
* DocScrutinizer05 shakes head on people thinking of code like of hamburger meat23:18
DocScrutinizer05and why would *I* tell *you* about building FSO? Why don't *you* tell MickeyL?23:19
DocScrutinizer05you get response and competent help within 24h. My defin ition of the opposite of abandoned/rotten23:20
L29Ah_ it certainly is then23:23
DocScrutinizer05you het what you pay for. come up with something better, dude!23:24
DocScrutinizer05I guess you want android23:24
DocScrutinizer05piecemeal from a very short menu, made fresh for your nausea every other week23:25
DocScrutinizer05each time with an icing of new rogueware and new bugs23:27
DocScrutinizer05you think of hamburger meat, I think of brandy or whiskey23:27
DocScrutinizer05guess what's Devuan! it tries to keep that "rotten" stuff, to get rid of that new cancer introduced by nitwits who want "fresh"23:30
DocScrutinizer05honestly what sense is in "no matter if it *works* or has any value, as long as it **builds** on kernel7.384"?23:35
DocScrutinizer05don't you think fixing building issues is way easier than fixing design flaws and lacks in functionality?23:36
DocScrutinizer05loosely related:23:47
DocScrutinizer05jr@saturn:~/x> tar --version23:47
DocScrutinizer05tar (GNU tar) 1.2623:47
DocScrutinizer05Copyright © 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc.23:47
L29Ah_was that the version where you can run some arbitrary code using a specially crafted tarball?23:50
DocScrutinizer05hardly, otherwise it had been patched since23:51
DocScrutinizer05you however seem to look for a version that doesn't exist at all, or if it exists it can't run itself23:52
DocScrutinizer05which is the new fresh middleware for phones that is *not* android?23:54
L29Ah_dunno what "middleware" is23:54
DocScrutinizer05I don't get it what you're looking for23:54
DocScrutinizer05maybe that's the problem23:54
DocScrutinizer05~wiki middleware23:55
infobotAt (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{Refimprove|date=August 2013}} and user applications is considered middleware. Functionality such as gesture recognition or speech recognition is usually processed by some middleware, and the results are transmitted to user applications.{{Citation needed|date = May 2015}}]] 'Middleware' is computer software that provides services to software applications beyond those available ...23:55
L29Ah_i don't look for anything, i'm whining about no mainstream distros being ready even for a basic phone functionality on n90023:55
DocScrutinizer05guess why! since everybody is whining instead of doing something23:56
L29Ah_DocScrutinizer05: btw can you /facilitate/ removing the stupid forbidden thing on
DocScrutinizer05and, understanding the concepts of embedded systems and middleware and phones at large, you'd get why no maintream distro ever will be23:57
* L29Ah_ found out there's yet fuck me23:57
DocScrutinizer05L29Ah_: sorry, nope, I bitched a lot about why even reading (without login and thus writing new posts) needs to be protected by those blacklists shit23:58
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infobotwell, techstaff is techstaff(AT) - the folks that keep your maemo infra running. Devotion to Duty

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