IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2016-04-10

DocScrutinizer05my take on that particular issue and what's relevant for my perceived security in it:
MaxdamantusPackage lists should definitely be encrypted. Packages themselves should at least have to match hashes from the package list.00:09
MaxdamantusOtherwise I could easily do something like make it so people grab my evil package list when they do `apt-get update` on a LAN I happen to also be on.00:10
Maxdamantusthen when they upgrade any package it will get my modified version that includes something malicious in it.00:10
MaxdamantusWell, when I say "encrypted", signed would also suffice, but I don't think Debian normally has an inherent mechanism for that.00:11
DocScrutinizer05yeah sure, as happened thousands of times in maemo's apt-get already, partucularly as long as Nokia had valid *signature* keys on plain text packages.lst00:11
* DocScrutinizer05 fixes damn ignore list00:11
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* DocScrutinizer05 desparately searches for source of the magical tools that allow at least *snooping* of traffic from other LAN clients in any arbitrary LAN built from switches instead of hubs, and a marginally decent-configured router that doesn't FORWARD ALL ALL00:25
MaxdamantusDo you know what ARP is?00:26
MaxdamantusARP requests are normally broadcast to everyone on the .. broadcast domain.00:27
MaxdamantusThere isn't any way to validate the responses you get back from them.00:27
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Maxdamantusand that's how you know what addresses to send to at the level you're talking about.00:28
MaxdamantusYou can also make false responses to DHCP requests.00:29
MaxdamantusUsing switches instead of hubs doesn't really improve security.00:29
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MaxdamantusYou can probably also come up with attacks involving STP if that's running on the broadcast domain.00:34
MaxdamantusI'm sure there are countless others.00:35
Maxdamantusbtw, these attacks don't have to be intended by the people using the LAN.00:38
Maxdamantusthey could be performed by malware already running on other people's computers on the LAN.00:38
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Maxdamantusbtw, the "magical tools" are just a standard build of dnsmasq and the standard Linux networking tools.01:09
Maxdamantuswith those you can set up a DHCP server that tells (some) people making DHCP requests to use your IP address as a gateway and as a DNS server.01:11
Maxdamantusthen you just need to do NAT to forward connections on through the real gateway and everything will appear to be working as normal, it just happens that half of the network users are forwarding all their traffic through your machine.01:12
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DocScrutinizer05maybe interesting for some here:
DocScrutinizer05large LANs may use this class of routers instead mere switches, home LAN is not supposed to see much ARP spoofing usually, also since you generally have a router-modem with a number of separate ethernet jacks which can form separated physical branches that don't necessarily boradcast from one to another, and particularly not ARP requests that have the own (gateway's) IP in them03:23
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DocScrutinizer05even less ARP *answers* that have the own (gateway's) IP in them03:28
DocScrutinizer05adding more (non-routermodem) switches to the homeLAN makes stuff a tad tricky to evaluate, simply since there are so many differently working types of switches out there and usually none of them has any specs available03:31
DocScrutinizer05anyway in a LAN large enough to worry about rogue clients among them, you're better off with a decent router rather than silly switches03:32
DocScrutinizer05same rationale applies to DHCP spoofing in analogy03:35
DocScrutinizer05your typical homeLAN modemrouter regularly is the only DHCP server of the netwerk03:36
DocScrutinizer05so when it is gateway and DHCP server, why should it forward obviously bogus DHCP/ARP replies from one client to all others?03:37
DocScrutinizer05even less unsolicited ones03:38
DocScrutinizer05and don't get me sttarted about Rendezvous/Bonjour/Avahi which needs to get killed with fire03:44
DocScrutinizer05DNS even03:45
MaxdamantusBecause people only ever use "large LANs" and "home LANs".03:49
DocScrutinizer05and when you really want to run your own DNS server, you damn sure better run a detection system on same machine as well, for any spoofing found in the network. I mean it's simple enough03:50
MaxdamantusWhen you connect to a WiFi network, it's sure to use only CISCO equipment and configured by people who understand how to mitigate ARP and DHCP spoofing.03:50
Maxdamantusnot that those are the only possible attacks, but they're some of the many that have pretty much no effect on SSL.03:51
DocScrutinizer05however neither of all that crap is needed since ages, since the devices you usually get are preconfigured to do all that stuff automatically03:51
DocScrutinizer05so no Zeroconf, neither any DNS config or firewall messing around03:52
* DocScrutinizer05 never seen a company LAN with zeroconf03:53
* DocScrutinizer05 actually also never seen a home LAN where it was needed and used03:54
* Maxdamantus should see if he can respond to DHCP requests on his LAN at work.03:54
* Maxdamantus suspects he can, even though it's using fancy CISCO switches.03:54
MaxdamantusI suspect if people were able to design networking again, they'd use something more secure than IP.04:02
Maxdamantusand 802.1104:02
MaxdamantusThere are ways of properly enforcing what you seem to envision these "large LANs" as doing, but IP/ethernet doesn't enforce these things and the closest you can get is through doing things like blacklisting DHCP frames being transmitted by anyone except devices with certain MAC addresses.04:04
Maxdamantuswhich also relies on verifying MAC addresses, which can be done with additional static configuration.04:04
MaxdamantusWith something other than IP/802.11, it could all happen automatically, but it's difficult replacing those things for non-technical reasons.04:05
Maxdamantuser, s/802\.11/802/04:06
DocScrutinizer05if the cisco whitepaper is tl;dr, here one of the key quotes:  >>The DAI verification consists primarily of intercepting each ARP packet and comparing its MAC address and IP address information against the MAC-IP bindings contained in a trusted binding table. DAI discards any ARP packets that are inconsistent with the information contained in the binding table. The trusted binding table is dynamically populated by DHCP snooping when this04:11
DocScrutinizer05feature is enabled<<04:11
DocScrutinizer05for a SOHO-modemrouter, this gets even simpler since no snooping needed, all is done onboard locally04:12
MaxdamantusWait, so this doesn't even prevent the DHCP spoofing.04:14
MaxdamantusSo they have another thing to check that, right?04:14
DocScrutinizer05so a very simple netfiler rule that filters out all packets with source "any external IF" and type "ARP" and "IP.src || IP.dst == $own-gateway-IP"04:15
MaxdamantusARP? IP src? IP dst?04:16
MaxdamantusARP is layer 2.04:17
DocScrutinizer05and the modemrouter does communicate with own DHCPd to fill/update the "trusted binding table", instead of snooping04:17
MaxdamantusIt's used to resolve local IP addresses to MAC addresses.04:17
DocScrutinizer05*if* you want to allow any other ARP at all, which usually isn't needed04:18
DocScrutinizer05implementations may change from modemrouter to modemrouter04:19
DocScrutinizer05(allow any other ARP) I meant instead of routermodem answering all ARP requests from own local cache04:21
DocScrutinizer05the DHCP table already knows MAC of all devices that 'registered' to gateway in LAN04:22
Maxdamantusfwiw, home routers are unlikely to do this.04:23
DocScrutinizer05those with fixed IP _not_ assigned by a DHCPd option in modemrouter are a special case you need to deal with04:23
MaxdamantusI've accidentally run an additional DHCP server at the same time as my modem-router-switch.04:23
Maxdamantuswhich one responded first was just chance.04:24
MaxdamantusI doubt it's any different on virtually every other modem-router-switch.04:24
MaxdamantusI have a suspicion that the switch functionality is also usually independent of the router functionality.04:26
Maxdamantusie, the switch is just a separate device on the board that knows how to do ethernet switching, so not all frames go through Linux.04:27
MaxdamantusThat would mean to implement DHCP spoofing protection, the switch needs to be programmed to block DHCP responses that come from anywhere but the router "port".04:28
Maxdamantusit would need to be configurable, because people (eg, me) often reuse these devices as normal switches.04:29
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DocScrutinizer05it's a pity that fritzbox (7490) needs to disbale the hw booster to allow netfilters. Then OTOH as long as you don't need Gbit-ethernet, it prolly makes no difference05:54
DocScrutinizer05well, when you want a 8-port Gbit router with firewall aka netfilers and up to 2 mio packets per second, you have to pay the price for such thing (which is 1.5 times the price for a 7490)05:57
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ceenei recently screwed up a section of my uni's network13:05
ceenebecause i connected to the network an ap that was configured to act as dhcp server not only on the wireless interface13:06
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ceeneit department had the ability to locate te issue, but weren't able to block my dhcp responses13:06
ceeneso i was called and asked to disable my dhcp server13:06
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Pali~seen sailus14:54
infoboti haven't seen 'sailus', Pali14:54
freemangordonPali: he is on #maemo-ssu14:55
freemangordonI already pinged him14:55
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DocScrutinizer05Pali: freemangordon: you had the Europa vs DHL issue rethought and made a decision?17:17
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PaliDocScrutinizer05: which issue?18:04
DocScrutinizer05whether to send the debug-N900 to freemangordon or rather hook it up locally to Europa, like the pimped bBB-xM a while ago18:04
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Palihm? what is debug-N900?18:06
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DocScrutinizer05a N900 with serial console18:11
Palihmm... currently I do not need serial console on real hw18:12
Palibroken stuff (like division by zero in omapfb) are better to debug in qemu18:13
freemangordonDocScrutinizer05: you'd better send it18:14
Paliand other parts which I'm hacking do not need serial console on real n900 hw... either qemu (serial console) or real device with ssh+wifi is enough for me18:14
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DocScrutinizer05freemangordon: soit's decided. I need to cleanup the nasty wiring a bit, fix the heavy cable from adapter to the device so the flomsy thin wires I soldered (the red ones) don't break immediately, then I pack and send it18:23
freemangordonok, great18:25
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ceenei've just written to coderus to ask him his libwa status19:22
ceenedepending on his response i may end yappari completely19:22
ceenemaybe it's gui is usable as telegram frontend or something19:22
infobotceene meant: maybe its gui is usable as telegram frontend or something19:22
ceenenobody here in spain uses telegram, though19:23
ceenejust my geek friends19:23
ceenewell, now i'm almost happy than i'm asocial so i don't have many friends that i'd like to communicate with anyhow :D19:24
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KotCzarnyceene: irc ftw?20:08
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bencohceene: oh well20:36
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ceenewell, i think there's a little hope20:57
ceenecoderus has ceased development, but his libwa is more or less up to date, it seems20:57
ceenei still have to port all my code to use his library20:58
ceenebut i think it's feasible...20:58
ceenebut some help is always appreciated20:58
ceenewould there be enough people to contribute and pay a guy to do it?20:58
DocScrutinizer05I'd bet on it, when that campaign gets properly published and designed21:02
DocScrutinizer05the question is rather: can you find such guy?21:02
ceeneit shouldn't be that hard21:03
ceenea guy who can code in qt421:03
DocScrutinizer05and has the time to actually do it21:03
ceenewell, if you pay him, he'll have the time21:03
DocScrutinizer05then you need to pay him fulltime, possibly for years, so good that he quits his recent job21:04
ceenethat's true, yes21:04
ceeneor maybe not so well paid21:04
DocScrutinizer05or you find arbitrary coders possibly in china or india21:04
ceeneif he values more his freetime21:04
ceeneor whatever21:04
ceenelots of people are willing to earn less in exchange for more time with family, not having a shithead of a boss, etc21:05
DocScrutinizer05I just can contribute what I've seen so far with similar approaches21:05
DocScrutinizer05I wasn't able to "find the guy"21:06
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ceenei was wondering21:18
ceenethere's nitdroid21:18
ceenewhich runs some old version of android21:18
ceenethat kernel could be run as UML?21:18
ceenewell, i don't know how well nitdroid runs either21:18
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DocScrutinizer05I'd go for replicant rather than nitdroid any day21:26
ceenei wouldn't mind at all21:27
ceenebut it won't run either on n90021:27
DocScrutinizer05it won't?21:28
DocScrutinizer05I'm not closely following replicant development, but I thought it runs on N900 already.21:29
ceenelet me check21:29
ceenedoesn't appear here21:30
ceeneNitdroid is hard to build and undocumented21:30
ceenethis appears in as a note regarding n90021:31
ceeneso no21:31
Siceloby the way .. what's the end goal?21:32
ceenedunno, really21:32
ceenebeing able to run more apps21:32
ceenewhatsapp being one of them, but also others21:33
ceenewe don't have a userbase big enough to develop the apps we want21:33
ceeneso... we'll die when HTML6 rolls over and doesn't have anything to do with html4-521:33
ceeneand we won't even be able to run a web browser21:34
ceenea 2020 website won't even fit on our ram, however21:36
ceeneso it won't mind much at all21:36
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DocScrutinizer05in 2020 I probably stopped using web, that's an insane development in a number of aspects and I don't want to participate in such insanity21:37
DocScrutinizer05when it's more lightweight to run VNC to a web rendering server than to use plain HTML, something went massively wrong on a design and architecture level21:38
ceenethat's the alternative i've also thought about, regarding whatsapp and the like21:38
ceenei can set a VM on some server i just vnc into it21:39
ceenei can use getmewheels on maemo to make a reservation for a particular car21:39
ceenebut their "openapi" doesn't include the call to open the car21:40
bencohceene: there is a thread on TMO about android running on n900/n9/jolla in a window21:40
Sicelocall to open the car << what does this mean?21:40
ceenethe api command to get the car opened21:40
bencohSicelo: API function call21:41
Siceloit's the "open" that i don't get :) car opens automatically? or means something else?21:41
ceeneexactly that21:42
ceenethe key is inside the car21:42
ceeneand you open it remotely21:42
ceenei had to go to the car2go offices and they gave me an RFID car21:44
Sicelook. interesting. maybe i should look the site up to understand it properly. we don't have such systems this side of the world. if i'm booking a car, i don't understand why they would put key in the car and have me open it with phone/whatever, but maybe i'm just not getting the concept21:44
bencohand then you learn 6 months later that some group hacked the car driving system and you wonder "but I thought their should be separate buses for security reasons?!"21:44
Sicelobencoh: +121:44
bencohand your car vendor eventually answers months later that they stopped using two separate CAN buses because "it wasn't convenient"21:44
ceenethis is an unusual car rental service21:44
ceenebecause you don't have to go to any office or parking in which they have them21:45
ceeneyou register yourself before using it21:45
ceeneand then you can check with the mobile app or through their webpage where are the cars that are parked right now21:45
ceeneif you're lucky, there's a car or two in a block21:45
bencohthe idea is quite fun actually21:45
bencohand sounds cool21:45
ceeneyou can make a reservation for that car that lasts 30 minutes21:45
bencoh(but security-wise ... urgh :)21:46
ceenewhen you arrive, you order ir to open through the mobile app21:46
ceeneor presenting it with an RFID card as mine21:46
ceeneit opens21:46
ceeneand you drive it21:46
Siceloomg. that's even scary. so now all it takes is one geek with lots of time in his hands21:46
ceeneyou can then park it anywhere21:46
ceeneand finish the rental21:46
Siceloi'll steal the idea :)21:46
ceeneso you only pay for the minutes you've used it21:46
ceeneit's quite recent here in Madrid21:46
ceenein Madrid they're all electric Smarts21:47
bencohactually I like it better than the autolib concept they have in paris21:47
ceenein Madrid the model is a bit different than in the rest of europe21:47
bencoh(electric vehicles as well, but you cant park anywhere you want)21:47
ceenebecause they decided to go with an all electric vehicle21:47
ceenebut there aren't enough charging stations21:47
bencohah well21:47
ceene(there are maybe a dozen in all the city)21:47
bencohsame issue then ;)21:47
ceeneso they take them every night to outside charging stations21:48
ceenecharge them all, and redistribute them along city again21:48
Sicelohow do these systems deal with accidents, traffic violations, etc.?21:48
ceenewell, the bad thing is that you're so very obviously tracked at all time21:48
ceeneyou're insuraced, but if it's your fault you will be paying the first 500 euros of damage21:48
ceenethe insurance company takes care of anything else after those 500 euros21:49
ceeneif you get billed, then you are made responsible, since they know who and when was driving each car21:49
ceeneif you are fined, i mean21:49
Sicelocall me a thief, :p21:50
ceeneit's all pretty standard though21:50
Sicelobut i may want to do this in swaziland one day21:50
ceeneevery other rental service i've used has the same conditions, more or less21:50
ceene or
ceenein maemo we have getmewheels as client for that21:50
ceenei had to modify it to know that Madrid exists, though21:51
ceenebut I have to carry the RFID car to open them21:51
ceeneit's owned by Daimler21:51
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ceeneit's quite an investment, if you're to buy 300 cars21:53
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ceenesince they're the manufacturers they have an advantage there :)21:53
Siceloand they give the lowest end car ;)21:54
ceenealthough in cities like madrid21:54
ceenea smart is a blessing21:54
ceeneso you can at least try to park it21:54
ceenebut being for only 2 occupants makes it a little less convenient21:54
ceenei wrote them to ask for the way to open the car and they went silent on me21:58
ceeneso i may end up decompiling their android app21:58
ceenethey could at least have said something along the lines of "due to security reasons...", but they didn't even bothered to answer21:59
ceenei should crack it and open all the cars at the same time21:59
ceenena, i like them21:59
ceenethey're cheap enough21:59
Siceloi mean you22:00
ceeneand electrical cars are a good thing in a contaminated city22:00
ceenethat's why i won't do it! :)22:00
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Sicelobut yes, it sucks that some companies never respond to emails ..22:07
Sicelohere in South Africa/Swaziland it's so bad that you're just wasting your time writing. If they have a contact form, don't bother22:07
ceenei hate contact forms!22:07
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DocScrutinizer05((<Sicelo> but i may want to do this in swaziland one day)) GO FOR IT!22:08
SiceloDocScrutinizer05: won't your german buddies go after my ass for a 'patented' system? :p22:08
DocScrutinizer05there's nothing patented in such a simple system22:09
ceenethe biggest problem is that it's pretty expensive22:09
ceeneyou have to buy several hundred vehicles22:09
ceeneand maintain them all22:09
ceenethat's quite a bunch of employees22:10
Siceloand South Africa has one of highest levels of taxi violence .. they'll burn these cars down :p22:10
ceenethat has happened here too22:11
ceenea few vehicles have been vandalized22:11
Sicelojust this week, a private car owner gave a lift to some persons at a taxi stop. two taxis saw him, and chased him down. in the end the passengers and good samaritan died in some freak accident22:13
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DocScrutinizer05be smart, come up with solutions to either mitigate the impact or avoid it happening at all22:14
ceeneand i always thought that madrid taxi drivers were aggressive...22:14
DocScrutinizer05employ the taxi drivers to maintain the share-cars ;-)22:15
DocScrutinizer05instead of fighting competition, they can make double income at same time22:16
DocScrutinizer05pay taxi drivers a service fee each time they stop by at a share car and check if it's OK22:18
ceenegiven the taxi drivers that Sicelo refer to, they'd burn the car and later on try to cash for noticing it first22:19
DocScrutinizer05if the car is messy inside, have them take proof snapshots before unlocking and opening the doors to clean it up for an extra fee22:19
Sicelosouth africa is some weird country. great economy (until recently), but sometimes they can be quite inhuman here22:20
DocScrutinizer05ceene: that's really a non-issue, simple to solve at a technical level22:20
SiceloDocScrutinizer05: i'll do this, but in Swaziland .. much safer place to do stuff there22:20
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DocScrutinizer05ceene: but yeah, the trick is to be always smarter than any fools who try to exploit the system22:27
bencohSicelo: some nasty stuff happened in paris as well regarding taxis vs uberpop22:27
ceenei've just written car2go a twitter to ask them22:29
ceenei don't know why it seems that nowadays twitter is the communication thingy22:29
ceenewhat happened to old fashioned emails?22:29
ceenei made a twitter account just to complain about things :D22:29
ceenewhen it's made public they take care of you earlier22:30
Sicelo009Nbad publicity22:31
DocScrutinizer05ceene: e.g. when the car is damaged, the taxi driver only gets a fixed rather low fee for fetching the police and doing all the paperwork, and you send a employee to pick up the car end bring it in for service. No cleanup or other service fees paid to taxi driver when the car needs to get picked up (aka damaged)22:33
DocScrutinizer05s/ end / and /22:35
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: ceene: e.g. when the car is damaged, the taxi driver only gets a fixed rather low fee for fetching the police and doing all the paperwork, and you send a employee to pick up the car and bring it in for service. No cleanup or other service fees paid to tax...22:35
DocScrutinizer05tow away and station service need to be employees who don't want more work, rather less22:37
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