| DocScrutinizer05 | my take on that particular issue and what's relevant for my perceived security in it: https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-04-04/?msg=63443153&page=1 | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Maxdamantus | Package lists should definitely be encrypted. Packages themselves should at least have to match hashes from the package list. | 00:09 |
| Maxdamantus | Otherwise I could easily do something like make it so people grab my evil package list when they do `apt-get update` on a LAN I happen to also be on. | 00:10 |
| Maxdamantus | then when they upgrade any package it will get my modified version that includes something malicious in it. | 00:10 |
| Maxdamantus | Well, when I say "encrypted", signed would also suffice, but I don't think Debian normally has an inherent mechanism for that. | 00:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah sure, as happened thousands of times in maemo's apt-get already, partucularly as long as Nokia had valid *signature* keys on plain text packages.lst | 00:11 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 fixes damn ignore list | 00:11 | |
| *** pagurus has quit IRC | 00:17 | |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo | 00:19 | |
| *** Sicelo009N has quit IRC | 00:25 | |
| * DocScrutinizer05 desparately searches for source of the magical tools that allow at least *snooping* of traffic from other LAN clients in any arbitrary LAN built from switches instead of hubs, and a marginally decent-configured router that doesn't FORWARD ALL ALL | 00:25 | |
| Maxdamantus | Do you know what ARP is? | 00:26 |
| Maxdamantus | ARP requests are normally broadcast to everyone on the .. broadcast domain. | 00:27 |
| Maxdamantus | There isn't any way to validate the responses you get back from them. | 00:27 |
| *** clopez has quit IRC | 00:28 | |
| Maxdamantus | and that's how you know what addresses to send to at the level you're talking about. | 00:28 |
| Maxdamantus | You can also make false responses to DHCP requests. | 00:29 |
| Maxdamantus | Using switches instead of hubs doesn't really improve security. | 00:29 |
| *** clopez has joined #maemo | 00:31 | |
| Maxdamantus | You can probably also come up with attacks involving STP if that's running on the broadcast domain. | 00:34 |
| Maxdamantus | I'm sure there are countless others. | 00:35 |
| Maxdamantus | btw, these attacks don't have to be intended by the people using the LAN. | 00:38 |
| Maxdamantus | they could be performed by malware already running on other people's computers on the LAN. | 00:38 |
| *** Venusaur has joined #maemo | 00:43 | |
| *** xorly has quit IRC | 00:58 | |
| *** Luke-Jr has quit IRC | 01:00 | |
| Maxdamantus | btw, the "magical tools" are just a standard build of dnsmasq and the standard Linux networking tools. | 01:09 |
| Maxdamantus | with those you can set up a DHCP server that tells (some) people making DHCP requests to use your IP address as a gateway and as a DNS server. | 01:11 |
| Maxdamantus | then you just need to do NAT to forward connections on through the real gateway and everything will appear to be working as normal, it just happens that half of the network users are forwarding all their traffic through your machine. | 01:12 |
| *** Luke-Jr has joined #maemo | 01:16 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo | 01:36 | |
| *** arcean has quit IRC | 01:40 | |
| *** andril has joined #maemo | 02:25 | |
| *** Luke-Jr has quit IRC | 02:29 | |
| *** luke-jr_ has joined #maemo | 02:29 | |
| *** luke-jr_ has quit IRC | 02:33 | |
| *** andril has quit IRC | 02:34 | |
| *** luke-jr_ has joined #maemo | 02:36 | |
| *** luke-jr_ has quit IRC | 02:40 | |
| *** krnlyng has quit IRC | 02:40 | |
| *** robink has quit IRC | 02:43 | |
| *** luke-jr_ has joined #maemo | 02:45 | |
| *** florian has quit IRC | 02:47 | |
| *** robink has joined #maemo | 02:51 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 02:55 | |
| *** krnlyng has joined #maemo | 02:58 | |
| *** pagurus has joined #maemo | 03:00 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maybe interesting for some here: http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/switches/catalyst-6500-series-switches/white_paper_c11_603839.html | 03:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | large LANs may use this class of routers instead mere switches, home LAN is not supposed to see much ARP spoofing usually, also since you generally have a router-modem with a number of separate ethernet jacks which can form separated physical branches that don't necessarily boradcast from one to another, and particularly not ARP requests that have the own (gateway's) IP in them | 03:23 |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo | 03:23 | |
| *** sunshavi has joined #maemo | 03:24 | |
| *** Pali has quit IRC | 03:25 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even less ARP *answers* that have the own (gateway's) IP in them | 03:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | adding more (non-routermodem) switches to the homeLAN makes stuff a tad tricky to evaluate, simply since there are so many differently working types of switches out there and usually none of them has any specs available | 03:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway in a LAN large enough to worry about rogue clients among them, you're better off with a decent router rather than silly switches | 03:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | same rationale applies to DHCP spoofing in analogy | 03:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | your typical homeLAN modemrouter regularly is the only DHCP server of the netwerk | 03:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so when it is gateway and DHCP server, why should it forward obviously bogus DHCP/ARP replies from one client to all others? | 03:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | even less unsolicited ones | 03:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and don't get me sttarted about Rendezvous/Bonjour/Avahi which needs to get killed with fire | 03:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Zeroconf | 03:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mDSNS | 03:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | DNS even | 03:45 |
| Maxdamantus | Because people only ever use "large LANs" and "home LANs". | 03:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and when you really want to run your own DNS server, you damn sure better run a detection system on same machine as well, for any spoofing found in the network. I mean it's simple enough | 03:50 |
| Maxdamantus | When you connect to a WiFi network, it's sure to use only CISCO equipment and configured by people who understand how to mitigate ARP and DHCP spoofing. | 03:50 |
| Maxdamantus | not that those are the only possible attacks, but they're some of the many that have pretty much no effect on SSL. | 03:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | however neither of all that crap is needed since ages, since the devices you usually get are preconfigured to do all that stuff automatically | 03:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so no Zeroconf, neither any DNS config or firewall messing around | 03:52 |
| * DocScrutinizer05 never seen a company LAN with zeroconf | 03:53 | |
| * DocScrutinizer05 actually also never seen a home LAN where it was needed and used | 03:54 | |
| * Maxdamantus should see if he can respond to DHCP requests on his LAN at work. | 03:54 | |
| * Maxdamantus suspects he can, even though it's using fancy CISCO switches. | 03:54 | |
| Maxdamantus | I suspect if people were able to design networking again, they'd use something more secure than IP. | 04:02 |
| Maxdamantus | and 802.11 | 04:02 |
| Maxdamantus | There are ways of properly enforcing what you seem to envision these "large LANs" as doing, but IP/ethernet doesn't enforce these things and the closest you can get is through doing things like blacklisting DHCP frames being transmitted by anyone except devices with certain MAC addresses. | 04:04 |
| Maxdamantus | which also relies on verifying MAC addresses, which can be done with additional static configuration. | 04:04 |
| Maxdamantus | With something other than IP/802.11, it could all happen automatically, but it's difficult replacing those things for non-technical reasons. | 04:05 |
| Maxdamantus | er, s/802\.11/802/ | 04:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if the cisco whitepaper is tl;dr, here one of the key quotes: >>The DAI verification consists primarily of intercepting each ARP packet and comparing its MAC address and IP address information against the MAC-IP bindings contained in a trusted binding table. DAI discards any ARP packets that are inconsistent with the information contained in the binding table. The trusted binding table is dynamically populated by DHCP snooping when this | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | feature is enabled<< | 04:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for a SOHO-modemrouter, this gets even simpler since no snooping needed, all is done onboard locally | 04:12 |
| Maxdamantus | Wait, so this doesn't even prevent the DHCP spoofing. | 04:14 |
| Maxdamantus | So they have another thing to check that, right? | 04:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so a very simple netfiler rule that filters out all packets with source "any external IF" and type "ARP" and "IP.src || IP.dst == $own-gateway-IP" | 04:15 |
| Maxdamantus | ARP? IP src? IP dst? | 04:16 |
| Maxdamantus | ARP is layer 2. | 04:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the modemrouter does communicate with own DHCPd to fill/update the "trusted binding table", instead of snooping | 04:17 |
| Maxdamantus | It's used to resolve local IP addresses to MAC addresses. | 04:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *if* you want to allow any other ARP at all, which usually isn't needed | 04:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | implementations may change from modemrouter to modemrouter | 04:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (allow any other ARP) I meant instead of routermodem answering all ARP requests from own local cache | 04:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the DHCP table already knows MAC of all devices that 'registered' to gateway in LAN | 04:22 |
| Maxdamantus | fwiw, home routers are unlikely to do this. | 04:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | those with fixed IP _not_ assigned by a DHCPd option in modemrouter are a special case you need to deal with | 04:23 |
| Maxdamantus | I've accidentally run an additional DHCP server at the same time as my modem-router-switch. | 04:23 |
| Maxdamantus | which one responded first was just chance. | 04:24 |
| Maxdamantus | I doubt it's any different on virtually every other modem-router-switch. | 04:24 |
| Maxdamantus | I have a suspicion that the switch functionality is also usually independent of the router functionality. | 04:26 |
| Maxdamantus | ie, the switch is just a separate device on the board that knows how to do ethernet switching, so not all frames go through Linux. | 04:27 |
| Maxdamantus | That would mean to implement DHCP spoofing protection, the switch needs to be programmed to block DHCP responses that come from anywhere but the router "port". | 04:28 |
| Maxdamantus | it would need to be configurable, because people (eg, me) often reuse these devices as normal switches. | 04:29 |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has quit IRC | 04:34 | |
| *** eMHa_ has joined #maemo | 04:36 | |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo | 04:38 | |
| *** eMHa has quit IRC | 04:39 | |
| *** robotanarchy_ has joined #maemo | 04:41 | |
| *** robotanarchy has quit IRC | 04:45 | |
| *** AndrewX192 has quit IRC | 05:32 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's a pity that fritzbox (7490) needs to disbale the hw booster to allow netfilters. Then OTOH as long as you don't need Gbit-ethernet, it prolly makes no difference | 05:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, when you want a 8-port Gbit router with firewall aka netfilers and up to 2 mio packets per second, you have to pay the price for such thing (which is 1.5 times the price for a 7490) | 05:57 |
| *** AndrewX192 has joined #maemo | 06:01 | |
| *** lxp1 has joined #maemo | 06:02 | |
| *** lxp has quit IRC | 06:04 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | https://www.ubnt.com/edgemax/edgerouter-pro/ | 06:06 |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has quit IRC | 06:24 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has joined #maemo | 06:24 | |
| *** pagurus` has joined #maemo | 06:25 | |
| *** pagurus has quit IRC | 06:26 | |
| *** heroux has quit IRC | 08:23 | |
| *** heroux has joined #maemo | 08:23 | |
| *** vahe has joined #maemo | 08:32 | |
| *** newbieAlert has joined #maemo | 09:54 | |
| *** Venusaur has quit IRC | 10:01 | |
| *** sunshavi has quit IRC | 10:11 | |
| *** Venusaur has joined #maemo | 10:13 | |
| *** newbieAlert has left #maemo | 10:16 | |
| *** xelo has joined #maemo | 10:51 | |
| *** xelo has quit IRC | 10:58 | |
| *** azkay has joined #maemo | 11:39 | |
| *** aloril_ has quit IRC | 11:42 | |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo | 11:45 | |
| *** aloril has joined #maemo | 11:45 | |
| *** RedM has joined #maemo | 11:49 | |
| *** RedW has quit IRC | 11:49 | |
| *** florian has joined #maemo | 11:56 | |
| *** aloril has quit IRC | 12:05 | |
| *** aloril has joined #maemo | 12:06 | |
| *** freemangordon has quit IRC | 12:14 | |
| *** freemangordon has joined #maemo | 12:17 | |
| *** xorly has joined #maemo | 12:22 | |
| *** aloril has quit IRC | 12:30 | |
| *** aloril has joined #maemo | 12:33 | |
| *** xorly has quit IRC | 12:41 | |
| *** aloril has quit IRC | 12:42 | |
| *** aloril has joined #maemo | 12:43 | |
| *** aloril has quit IRC | 12:44 | |
| *** aloril has joined #maemo | 12:48 | |
| *** futpib has joined #maemo | 12:52 | |
| *** vahe has quit IRC | 12:54 | |
| ceene | i recently screwed up a section of my uni's network | 13:05 |
| ceene | because i connected to the network an ap that was configured to act as dhcp server not only on the wireless interface | 13:06 |
| *** pagurus` has quit IRC | 13:06 | |
| ceene | it department had the ability to locate te issue, but weren't able to block my dhcp responses | 13:06 |
| ceene | so i was called and asked to disable my dhcp server | 13:06 |
| azkay | Classic | 13:07 |
| *** pagurus has joined #maemo | 13:08 | |
| *** azkay has quit IRC | 13:19 | |
| *** azkay has joined #maemo | 13:20 | |
| *** pagurus has quit IRC | 13:39 | |
| *** heroux has quit IRC | 13:43 | |
| *** heroux has joined #maemo | 13:43 | |
| *** RedM has quit IRC | 13:43 | |
| *** RedW has joined #maemo | 13:44 | |
| *** xray256_ has quit IRC | 13:50 | |
| *** trx has quit IRC | 14:10 | |
| *** trx has joined #maemo | 14:15 | |
| *** trx has quit IRC | 14:15 | |
| *** trx has joined #maemo | 14:15 | |
| *** hashcore has quit IRC | 14:22 | |
| *** corvinux has joined #maemo | 14:26 | |
| *** hashcore has joined #maemo | 14:27 | |
| *** corvinux has quit IRC | 14:28 | |
| *** hashcore has quit IRC | 14:28 | |
| *** corvinux has joined #maemo | 14:28 | |
| *** hashcore has joined #maemo | 14:29 | |
| *** corvinux has quit IRC | 14:29 | |
| *** hashcore has quit IRC | 14:29 | |
| *** corvinux has joined #maemo | 14:30 | |
| *** corvinux has quit IRC | 14:31 | |
| *** corvinux has joined #maemo | 14:31 | |
| *** corvinux has quit IRC | 14:31 | |
| *** corvinux has joined #maemo | 14:31 | |
| *** corvinux has quit IRC | 14:32 | |
| *** corvinux has joined #maemo | 14:33 | |
| Pali | ~seen sailus | 14:54 |
| infobot | i haven't seen 'sailus', Pali | 14:54 |
| freemangordon | Pali: he is on #maemo-ssu | 14:55 |
| freemangordon | I already pinged him | 14:55 |
| *** corvinux has quit IRC | 14:56 | |
| *** xorly has joined #maemo | 15:01 | |
| *** pcfe has quit IRC | 15:45 | |
| *** corvinux has joined #maemo | 15:45 | |
| *** pcfe has joined #maemo | 15:56 | |
| *** pcfe has quit IRC | 15:56 | |
| *** pcfe has joined #maemo | 15:56 | |
| *** pcfe has quit IRC | 16:10 | |
| *** RedW has quit IRC | 17:07 | |
| *** RedM has joined #maemo | 17:07 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Pali: freemangordon: you had the Europa vs DHL issue rethought and made a decision? | 17:17 |
| *** ketaran has quit IRC | 17:20 | |
| *** pagurus has joined #maemo | 17:30 | |
| *** SpeedEvil has quit IRC | 17:32 | |
| *** SpeedEvil has joined #maemo | 17:33 | |
| *** ketaran has joined #maemo | 17:46 | |
| *** SpeedEvil has quit IRC | 17:57 | |
| *** SpeedEvil has joined #maemo | 17:58 | |
| *** trx has quit IRC | 17:59 | |
| Pali | DocScrutinizer05: which issue? | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | whether to send the debug-N900 to freemangordon or rather hook it up locally to Europa, like the pimped bBB-xM a while ago | 18:04 |
| *** sunshavi has joined #maemo | 18:06 | |
| Pali | hm? what is debug-N900? | 18:06 |
| *** vahe has joined #maemo | 18:09 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a N900 with serial console | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1503047#post1503047 | 18:11 |
| Pali | hmm... currently I do not need serial console on real hw | 18:12 |
| Pali | broken stuff (like division by zero in omapfb) are better to debug in qemu | 18:13 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: you'd better send it | 18:14 |
| Pali | and other parts which I'm hacking do not need serial console on real n900 hw... either qemu (serial console) or real device with ssh+wifi is enough for me | 18:14 |
| *** pcfe has joined #maemo | 18:15 | |
| *** pcfe has quit IRC | 18:15 | |
| *** pcfe has joined #maemo | 18:15 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: soit's decided. I need to cleanup the nasty wiring a bit, fix the heavy cable from adapter to the device so the flomsy thin wires I soldered (the red ones) don't break immediately, then I pack and send it | 18:23 |
| freemangordon | ok, great | 18:25 |
| *** Pali has quit IRC | 18:29 | |
| *** Pali has joined #maemo | 18:30 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has quit IRC | 18:33 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has joined #maemo | 18:33 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has quit IRC | 18:33 | |
| *** DocScrutinizer05 has joined #maemo | 18:33 | |
| *** pagurus has quit IRC | 18:39 | |
| *** vahe has quit IRC | 18:40 | |
| *** pagurus has joined #maemo | 18:42 | |
| *** vahe has joined #maemo | 18:46 | |
| *** pagurus has quit IRC | 18:55 | |
| *** pagurus has joined #maemo | 18:55 | |
| *** xray256 has joined #maemo | 18:59 | |
| *** pagurus has quit IRC | 19:02 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo | 19:03 | |
| *** pagurus has joined #maemo | 19:05 | |
| ceene | i've just written to coderus to ask him his libwa status | 19:22 |
| ceene | depending on his response i may end yappari completely | 19:22 |
| ceene | maybe it's gui is usable as telegram frontend or something | 19:22 |
| ceene | s/it's/its/ | 19:22 |
| infobot | ceene meant: maybe its gui is usable as telegram frontend or something | 19:22 |
| ceene | nobody here in spain uses telegram, though | 19:23 |
| ceene | just my geek friends | 19:23 |
| ceene | well, now i'm almost happy than i'm asocial so i don't have many friends that i'd like to communicate with anyhow :D | 19:24 |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 19:31 | |
| *** M4rtinK has joined #maemo | 19:32 | |
| *** M4rtinK has quit IRC | 19:33 | |
| *** Cor-Ai has quit IRC | 19:43 | |
| *** sunshavi has quit IRC | 19:48 | |
| *** Sicelo009N has joined #maemo | 19:59 | |
| *** vahe has quit IRC | 20:06 | |
| KotCzarny | ceene: irc ftw? | 20:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hehehe | 20:25 |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo | 20:27 | |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo | 20:28 | |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo | 20:28 | |
| *** clopez has quit IRC | 20:32 | |
| *** clopez has joined #maemo | 20:34 | |
| bencoh | ceene: oh well | 20:36 |
| *** corvinux has quit IRC | 20:45 | |
| ceene | well, i think there's a little hope | 20:57 |
| ceene | coderus has ceased development, but his libwa is more or less up to date, it seems | 20:57 |
| ceene | i still have to port all my code to use his library | 20:58 |
| ceene | but i think it's feasible... | 20:58 |
| ceene | but some help is always appreciated | 20:58 |
| ceene | :P | 20:58 |
| ceene | would there be enough people to contribute and pay a guy to do it? | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd bet on it, when that campaign gets properly published and designed | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the question is rather: can you find such guy? | 21:02 |
| ceene | it shouldn't be that hard | 21:03 |
| ceene | a guy who can code in qt4 | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and has the time to actually do it | 21:03 |
| ceene | well, if you pay him, he'll have the time | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | then you need to pay him fulltime, possibly for years, so good that he quits his recent job | 21:04 |
| ceene | that's true, yes | 21:04 |
| ceene | or maybe not so well paid | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or you find arbitrary coders possibly in china or india | 21:04 |
| ceene | if he values more his freetime | 21:04 |
| ceene | or whatever | 21:04 |
| ceene | lots of people are willing to earn less in exchange for more time with family, not having a shithead of a boss, etc | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just can contribute what I've seen so far with similar approaches | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wasn't able to "find the guy" | 21:06 |
| *** corvinux has joined #maemo | 21:16 | |
| ceene | i was wondering | 21:18 |
| ceene | there's nitdroid | 21:18 |
| ceene | which runs some old version of android | 21:18 |
| ceene | that kernel could be run as UML? | 21:18 |
| ceene | well, i don't know how well nitdroid runs either | 21:18 |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has quit IRC | 21:20 | |
| *** at1as has joined #maemo | 21:21 | |
| *** RedM has quit IRC | 21:21 | |
| *** RedW has joined #maemo | 21:22 | |
| *** shamus has quit IRC | 21:26 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'd go for replicant rather than nitdroid any day | 21:26 |
| ceene | i wouldn't mind at all | 21:27 |
| ceene | but it won't run either on n900 | 21:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it won't? | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'm not closely following replicant development, but I thought it runs on N900 already. | 21:29 |
| ceene | let me check | 21:29 |
| ceene | http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/ReplicantStatus | 21:30 |
| ceene | doesn't appear here | 21:30 |
| ceene | Nitdroid is hard to build and undocumented | 21:30 |
| ceene | this appears in http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/TargetsEvaluation as a note regarding n900 | 21:31 |
| ceene | so no | 21:31 |
| Sicelo | by the way .. what's the end goal? | 21:32 |
| ceene | dunno, really | 21:32 |
| ceene | being able to run more apps | 21:32 |
| ceene | whatsapp being one of them, but also others | 21:33 |
| ceene | we don't have a userbase big enough to develop the apps we want | 21:33 |
| ceene | so... we'll die when HTML6 rolls over and doesn't have anything to do with html4-5 | 21:33 |
| ceene | and we won't even be able to run a web browser | 21:34 |
| ceene | a 2020 website won't even fit on our ram, however | 21:36 |
| ceene | so it won't mind much at all | 21:36 |
| *** shamus has joined #maemo | 21:36 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in 2020 I probably stopped using web, that's an insane development in a number of aspects and I don't want to participate in such insanity | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when it's more lightweight to run VNC to a web rendering server than to use plain HTML, something went massively wrong on a design and architecture level | 21:38 |
| ceene | yep | 21:38 |
| ceene | that's the alternative i've also thought about, regarding whatsapp and the like | 21:38 |
| ceene | i can set a VM on some server i just vnc into it | 21:39 |
| ceene | crazy | 21:39 |
| ceene | i can use getmewheels on maemo to make a reservation for a particular car | 21:39 |
| ceene | but their "openapi" doesn't include the call to open the car | 21:40 |
| ceene | ... | 21:40 |
| bencoh | ceene: there is a thread on TMO about android running on n900/n9/jolla in a window | 21:40 |
| Sicelo | call to open the car << what does this mean? | 21:40 |
| ceene | the api command to get the car opened | 21:40 |
| bencoh | Sicelo: API function call | 21:41 |
| Sicelo | it's the "open" that i don't get :) car opens automatically? or means something else? | 21:41 |
| ceene | yes | 21:42 |
| ceene | exactly that | 21:42 |
| ceene | the key is inside the car | 21:42 |
| ceene | and you open it remotely | 21:42 |
| ceene | i had to go to the car2go offices and they gave me an RFID car | 21:44 |
| Sicelo | ok. interesting. maybe i should look the site up to understand it properly. we don't have such systems this side of the world. if i'm booking a car, i don't understand why they would put key in the car and have me open it with phone/whatever, but maybe i'm just not getting the concept | 21:44 |
| bencoh | and then you learn 6 months later that some group hacked the car driving system and you wonder "but I thought their should be separate buses for security reasons?!" | 21:44 |
| Sicelo | bencoh: +1 | 21:44 |
| ceene | well | 21:44 |
| bencoh | and your car vendor eventually answers months later that they stopped using two separate CAN buses because "it wasn't convenient" | 21:44 |
| ceene | this is an unusual car rental service | 21:44 |
| ceene | because you don't have to go to any office or parking in which they have them | 21:45 |
| ceene | you register yourself before using it | 21:45 |
| ceene | and then you can check with the mobile app or through their webpage where are the cars that are parked right now | 21:45 |
| ceene | if you're lucky, there's a car or two in a block | 21:45 |
| bencoh | the idea is quite fun actually | 21:45 |
| bencoh | and sounds cool | 21:45 |
| ceene | you can make a reservation for that car that lasts 30 minutes | 21:45 |
| bencoh | (but security-wise ... urgh :) | 21:46 |
| ceene | when you arrive, you order ir to open through the mobile app | 21:46 |
| ceene | or presenting it with an RFID card as mine | 21:46 |
| ceene | it opens | 21:46 |
| ceene | and you drive it | 21:46 |
| Sicelo | omg. that's even scary. so now all it takes is one geek with lots of time in his hands | 21:46 |
| ceene | you can then park it anywhere | 21:46 |
| ceene | and finish the rental | 21:46 |
| Sicelo | i'll steal the idea :) | 21:46 |
| ceene | so you only pay for the minutes you've used it | 21:46 |
| ceene | it's quite recent here in Madrid | 21:46 |
| ceene | in Madrid they're all electric Smarts | 21:47 |
| bencoh | actually I like it better than the autolib concept they have in paris | 21:47 |
| ceene | in Madrid the model is a bit different than in the rest of europe | 21:47 |
| bencoh | (electric vehicles as well, but you cant park anywhere you want) | 21:47 |
| ceene | because they decided to go with an all electric vehicle | 21:47 |
| ceene | but there aren't enough charging stations | 21:47 |
| bencoh | ah well | 21:47 |
| ceene | (there are maybe a dozen in all the city) | 21:47 |
| bencoh | same issue then ;) | 21:47 |
| ceene | so they take them every night to outside charging stations | 21:48 |
| ceene | charge them all, and redistribute them along city again | 21:48 |
| Sicelo | how do these systems deal with accidents, traffic violations, etc.? | 21:48 |
| ceene | well, the bad thing is that you're so very obviously tracked at all time | 21:48 |
| ceene | you're insuraced, but if it's your fault you will be paying the first 500 euros of damage | 21:48 |
| ceene | the insurance company takes care of anything else after those 500 euros | 21:49 |
| ceene | if you get billed, then you are made responsible, since they know who and when was driving each car | 21:49 |
| ceene | if you are fined, i mean | 21:49 |
| Sicelo | call me a thief, :p | 21:50 |
| ceene | it's all pretty standard though | 21:50 |
| Sicelo | but i may want to do this in swaziland one day | 21:50 |
| ceene | every other rental service i've used has the same conditions, more or less | 21:50 |
| ceene | http://moovel.com/ or http://www.car2go.com/ | 21:50 |
| ceene | in maemo we have getmewheels as client for that | 21:50 |
| ceene | i had to modify it to know that Madrid exists, though | 21:51 |
| ceene | but I have to carry the RFID car to open them | 21:51 |
| ceene | it's owned by Daimler | 21:51 |
| *** anYc has joined #maemo | 21:52 | |
| ceene | it's quite an investment, if you're to buy 300 cars | 21:53 |
| *** anYc has left #maemo | 21:53 | |
| ceene | since they're the manufacturers they have an advantage there :) | 21:53 |
| Sicelo | and they give the lowest end car ;) | 21:54 |
| ceene | yes | 21:54 |
| ceene | although in cities like madrid | 21:54 |
| ceene | a smart is a blessing | 21:54 |
| ceene | so you can at least try to park it | 21:54 |
| ceene | but being for only 2 occupants makes it a little less convenient | 21:54 |
| ceene | i wrote them to ask for the way to open the car and they went silent on me | 21:58 |
| ceene | so i may end up decompiling their android app | 21:58 |
| ceene | they could at least have said something along the lines of "due to security reasons...", but they didn't even bothered to answer | 21:59 |
| ceene | i should crack it and open all the cars at the same time | 21:59 |
| ceene | :D | 21:59 |
| Sicelo | :p | 21:59 |
| Sicelo | evil | 21:59 |
| ceene | na, i like them | 21:59 |
| ceene | they're cheap enough | 21:59 |
| Sicelo | i mean you | 22:00 |
| ceene | and electrical cars are a good thing in a contaminated city | 22:00 |
| ceene | that's why i won't do it! :) | 22:00 |
| *** RedW has quit IRC | 22:04 | |
| *** RedW has joined #maemo | 22:05 | |
| Sicelo | but yes, it sucks that some companies never respond to emails .. | 22:07 |
| Sicelo | here in South Africa/Swaziland it's so bad that you're just wasting your time writing. If they have a contact form, don't bother | 22:07 |
| ceene | i hate contact forms! | 22:07 |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has joined #maemo | 22:08 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ((<Sicelo> but i may want to do this in swaziland one day)) GO FOR IT! | 22:08 |
| Sicelo | DocScrutinizer05: won't your german buddies go after my ass for a 'patented' system? :p | 22:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no | 22:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's nothing patented in such a simple system | 22:09 |
| ceene | the biggest problem is that it's pretty expensive | 22:09 |
| ceene | you have to buy several hundred vehicles | 22:09 |
| ceene | and maintain them all | 22:09 |
| ceene | that's quite a bunch of employees | 22:10 |
| Sicelo | and South Africa has one of highest levels of taxi violence .. they'll burn these cars down :p | 22:10 |
| ceene | hehe | 22:11 |
| ceene | that has happened here too | 22:11 |
| ceene | a few vehicles have been vandalized | 22:11 |
| Sicelo | just this week, a private car owner gave a lift to some persons at a taxi stop. two taxis saw him, and chased him down. in the end the passengers and good samaritan died in some freak accident | 22:13 |
| *** troulouliou_div2 has quit IRC | 22:14 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | be smart, come up with solutions to either mitigate the impact or avoid it happening at all | 22:14 |
| ceene | wow | 22:14 |
| ceene | and i always thought that madrid taxi drivers were aggressive... | 22:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | employ the taxi drivers to maintain the share-cars ;-) | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | instead of fighting competition, they can make double income at same time | 22:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | pay taxi drivers a service fee each time they stop by at a share car and check if it's OK | 22:18 |
| ceene | given the taxi drivers that Sicelo refer to, they'd burn the car and later on try to cash for noticing it first | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if the car is messy inside, have them take proof snapshots before unlocking and opening the doors to clean it up for an extra fee | 22:19 |
| Sicelo | south africa is some weird country. great economy (until recently), but sometimes they can be quite inhuman here | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ceene: that's really a non-issue, simple to solve at a technical level | 22:20 |
| Sicelo | DocScrutinizer05: i'll do this, but in Swaziland .. much safer place to do stuff there | 22:20 |
| *** l_bratch has joined #maemo | 22:22 | |
| *** futpib has quit IRC | 22:25 | |
| *** ketaran has quit IRC | 22:26 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ceene: but yeah, the trick is to be always smarter than any fools who try to exploit the system | 22:27 |
| bencoh | Sicelo: some nasty stuff happened in paris as well regarding taxis vs uberpop | 22:27 |
| ceene | i've just written car2go a twitter to ask them | 22:29 |
| Sicelo009N | :) | 22:29 |
| ceene | i don't know why it seems that nowadays twitter is the communication thingy | 22:29 |
| ceene | what happened to old fashioned emails? | 22:29 |
| ceene | i made a twitter account just to complain about things :D | 22:29 |
| ceene | when it's made public they take care of you earlier | 22:30 |
| Sicelo009N | bad publicity | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ceene: e.g. when the car is damaged, the taxi driver only gets a fixed rather low fee for fetching the police and doing all the paperwork, and you send a employee to pick up the car end bring it in for service. No cleanup or other service fees paid to taxi driver when the car needs to get picked up (aka damaged) | 22:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | s/ end / and / | 22:35 |
| infobot | DocScrutinizer05 meant: ceene: e.g. when the car is damaged, the taxi driver only gets a fixed rather low fee for fetching the police and doing all the paperwork, and you send a employee to pick up the car and bring it in for service. No cleanup or other service fees paid to tax... | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tow away and station service need to be employees who don't want more work, rather less | 22:37 |
| *** sunshavi has joined #maemo | 22:42 | |
| *** ceene has quit IRC | 22:48 | |
| *** SpeedEvil has quit IRC | 22:54 | |
| *** BitEvil has joined #maemo | 22:54 | |
| *** LauRoman has quit IRC | 22:59 | |
| *** LauRoman has joined #maemo | 23:02 | |
| *** BitEvil is now known as SpeedEvil | 23:06 | |
| *** ced117 has quit IRC | 23:13 | |
| *** ceene has joined #maemo | 23:22 | |
| *** ceene is now known as ceeene | 23:22 | |
| *** DrCode has joined #maemo | 23:39 | |
| *** treaki has joined #maemo | 23:48 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.15.1 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!