IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2015-08-25

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DocScrutinizer05anybody checking maintainership requests ?02:09
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rbjrhello broo05:37
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zGrrmoin :)12:01
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KotCzarnyBut I still use oscp daily and it's part of the reason I'm back using my n900.13:28
KotCzarnywhat a beautiful comment for a coder13:28
KotCzarnypity most of the n8x0 users don't browse tmo these days13:29
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KotCzarnyok, anyone played with fmtx ?20:06
DocScrutinizer05fahrplan fixed and in extras-testing. Please QA and vote20:14
KotCzarnyor in other words, is there a source for fmtx_client or any other way to enable/modify rds programatically (other than exec or system)20:16
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totalizatorguys, I want to buy *new* N9; do you know any verified sellers from EU?20:28
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KotCzarnyum, are you really sure you want n9?20:29
KotCzarnymany people say bad things about harmattan20:29
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totalizatorum, I don't but I'm sick of searching an Android phone that would suit me20:30
KotCzarnylearn droid sdk?20:30
totalizatorand the main reason I'm still using N900 is the camera20:31
KotCzarnyi think you can shoot in RAWs with n90020:31
totalizatorKotCzarny: nah, I just want a smarter phone as N900 is more and more like a feature phone for me20:32
totalizatorSicelo: the N900 camera quality is superb20:32
KotCzarnyis it?20:32
Sicelobut i'm sure our 5MPix won't compare with other newer shooters (android...)20:33
bencohSicelo: actually ...20:33
totalizatoryup, I have documented last few years of my life with it so I know what I'm saying :320:33
bencohthe ccd is noisy and the aperture is too small, but other "smart"phone have the aperture issue20:34
Sicelonice to hear that. tbh i haven't used my camera so much (in the last 4 years) until recently :)20:34
bencohthey're a bit less noisy, have a higher resolution, and try to hide bad results with image processing20:34
totalizatorhah, I'll try to prepare a small compilation of my best photos taken with N90020:35
Siceloso totalizator in what way is N900 a feature phone? what is it lacking? (asking, not because i disagree, but to understand ...)20:35
KotCzarnyhmm, used n9 goes for ~70eur20:35
KotCzarnyand new one for ~120eur20:36
totalizatoralmost all Internet features are dead for me20:36
totalizatorusing the browser is a pain20:37
KotCzarnytotalizator: internet streams are playable without a problem20:37
totalizatorapps are outdated or slllooow20:37
KotCzarnyand youtube is also supported in a way20:37
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Sicelomaybe you need to do your research properly .. N9 might just disappoint you as well20:38
KotCzarnyn9 has 1G of ram20:38
KotCzarnyso has a chamce to run webkit/firefox just fine20:39
Siceloof course it has 4x ram. 2x faster processor too20:39
Sicelodo they have such browser in harmattan world?20:39
totalizatorKotCzarny: media capabilities are more than OK but it's not whan I need from a phone on a daily basis - I want to check bus timetable, instantly find a route using maps etc.20:40
totalizatorI want to try N9 mainly because it's quite cheap nowadays20:41
totalizatorbut it's hard to find a new one and many are fake chinese replicas20:42
KotCzarnyhmm, is down?20:42
Siceloi love its hardware. very very nice (sans hwkbd)20:42
KotCzarnyanyway, someone built it and ran20:42
KotCzarnybut fennec was abandoned long time ago20:43
Sicelototalizator: maybe you'll have better luck with used N9 then?20:44
totalizatorcontrary - I'm concidering things like Sony Z3 Compact and Iuni I320:45
totalizatorSicelo: seems like there is no other option20:46
totalizatorlel, I know20:46
Sicelobest wishes20:47
totalizatorIuni I3 is less than 200€ but I have heard it has no Google Play by default Q__Q20:47
KotCzarnytotalizator: are you going to sell n900 cheaply?20:48
totalizatorKotCzarny: NEVER20:48
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KotCzarnythis one looks interesting20:49
KotCzarnyi wonder if anyone backported it to n90020:49
KotCzarnystill, could be newer/faster than fennec20:51
totalizatorSicelo: "best wishes" - please elaborate on this20:51
KotCzarnytotalizator: i think he thought that you are gonna sell n90020:51
Sicelonothing more totalizator. just hope you find something to suit your needs, whether it be N9 or some Droid20:51
totalizatorKotCzarny: Sicelo: oh20:52
totalizatorbtw - I have lost faith when it comes to better, faster N900 web browser - impossible Q__Q20:53
Sicelonah, haha. i know totalizator has been a long time user of N900. selling would be sacrilege ;)20:53
KotCzarnytotalizator, i think main showstopper is memory size20:53
KotCzarnyand most of it eaten by os20:53
totalizatorKotCzarny: ++20:54
totalizatorSicelo: sometimes, during a panic attacks I'm looking for a spare N900 to buy ;)20:54
* ecc3g also looks for a spare n900 after buying an android phone...and is totally disappointed.20:55
KotCzarnyi'm looking for a spare n900 for .. science and stuff ;)20:55
KotCzarnygonna hack it hard when i get around it20:55
ecc3gi hate android, i thought i could try to acclimate to it but every moment I use it, I get more and more pissed at it20:55
totalizatorandroid phones are like a lesser evil - a tools, nothing more20:55
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KotCzarnyanyone tried alopex?20:56
* ecc3g got an Asus Zenfone2 (4GB RAM, 64GB eMMC, 2.3GHz..., alas completely soured by android... can't use it.)20:57
KotCzarnyacc3g: write your own apps?20:58
ecc3gso sad...20:58
KotCzarnyit's not that hard20:58
ecc3gneed to replace the whole OS20:58
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ecc3gI do wonder how hard it is to replace the whole OS... powervr is a problem, but dunno about the baseband processor21:01
KotCzarnyecc3g, with closed pieces, hard21:01
ecc3gwell... that's the question, I dont know how closed the baseband is. powervr is definitely a problem21:02
ecc3gbut the kernel module is floating around21:02
Sicelobootloader hackable or open?21:03
ecc3gsomeone apparently hacked it already21:03
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ecc3gno idea for sure.  pretty sure it's some UEFI though.21:03
Siceloah .. if you're able to boot something else, then the device starts to look very attractive ;)21:05
Siceloi had wished somebody would do that with Nokia's N1 tablet21:05
ecc3gyes it's good hardware, just bad sofware :(21:05
ecc3g(someone ran windows7 on the phone, but it wasn't clear how it was running.  looked like VM on the phone which isn't as interesting)21:06
Siceloyes .. i see someone with Ubuntu chroot on XDA as well21:07
ecc3gif i could run gentoo on this phone and still have 4g and "phone" capability, that would be great.21:07
SiceloN900 .. N900 ... N90021:07
KotCzarnyhmm, midori supports html5+css321:08
ecc3git's still my preferred phone because of software21:08
DocScrutinizer05((<Sicelo> of course it has 4x ram. 2x faster processor too)) just like Neo900 ;-D21:17
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Vajbyo im back \o21:20
Vajbgot few new problems with phone21:22
Vajbnow when i took more pictures than usually i noticed that after few pics camera just freezes when it should show taken picture and i have to kill it manually and picture is of course lost21:23
Vajbis there way to get some debug stuff or this is known problem?21:23
Vajbit is easy to reproduce. Just take less than ten pictures and it freezes21:24
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KotCzarnymonitor free space?21:24
Vajbumm just to run dmesg when it hangs?21:24
DocScrutinizer05I think it's sort of seen-before problem nobody really was able to tackle so far21:25
DocScrutinizer05possibly related to some closed blob driver21:25
KotCzarnyanother trick would be running camera app from terminal21:25
Vajbi have camera-ui2 i think21:25
KotCzarnyuninstall and try stock?21:25
Vajbjust one time i had to do killall camera-ui to get it back working21:26
DocScrutinizer05yes, some assume nicocam would be the culprit, however freemangordon had a very sound argument why it couldn't be related21:26
Vajbwhen i just ran camera-ui from terminal it didn't take picture. Camera ran, but just didn't shoot21:27
Vajbhmm maybe i try stock. Been thinking of reflash since i read about doc's never ever do apt upgrade on device...21:28
Vajbthinking that there might lay some problem21:28
Vajbbecause camera-ui2 is now part of cssu, right? So it should be stable as table21:29
DocScrutinizer05camera-ui2 became part of CSSU-T before I was able to argue against it21:30
Vajbtho i like new camera-ui more than stock21:30
Vajbi see21:30
Vajbdamn, just realised that i have my other phone laying around useless. Will try if i can reproduce it there21:31
DocScrutinizer05in fact it's not thoroughtly tested (at least in my book) and for sure not needed to fix any bug or implement a *needed* feature. So it's basically just forcefeeding to user a app *somebody* considers the better choice between equivalent alternatives. And that's not what CSSU is supposed to do, rather the contrary21:31
Vajbwell i don't see any problem with new features :)21:32
Vajbunless they don't bring any problems that is21:32
DocScrutinizer05I see problems with QA and maintenance of new apps21:33
DocScrutinizer05and I the heck don't want to get forcefed with new apps when I rather prefer keeping the old stock version21:33
Vajbthat reminded me of other thing. Last week there was some guy promising to ask for sources. How did it go or no info yet?21:34
DocScrutinizer05camera-ui2 *clearly* is _optional_ and *not* _mandatory_21:34
DocScrutinizer05I'm not really wondering what been the result of this effort21:35
Vajbyes, you have valid point there21:35
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Vajbso better would be to give it as option if one wants21:35
DocScrutinizer05yes, exactly21:35
Vajblike is case with open media player. As far as i know21:36
DocScrutinizer05or with firefox instead of ms crap in windows as default browser21:36
Vajboh yeah and one other thing. Yappari crashes from time to time21:36
DocScrutinizer05you have an option "make firefox default"21:37
DocScrutinizer05why not an option "make camera-ui2 default" ?21:37
DocScrutinizer05there is ZILCH reason to forcefeed it to CSSU users21:37
Vajbim not sure how to reproduce it, but i _feel_ like it happens when i close yapparis window when it's in minimized mode (swithing between apps)21:38
DocScrutinizer05and please don't tell me you don't know how to implement that, dear maintainers ;-)21:38
DocScrutinizer05actually swapping default camera is baby simple21:39
Vajbbut it puts users in awkward position. They have think wether they need it or not ;-)21:39
DocScrutinizer05which is what whole maemo is all about21:40
DocScrutinizer05just Nokia fscked it up21:40
DocScrutinizer05this mindset... :-.(21:41
Vajbah i thing cherry was first thing i purged after flash21:41
DocScrutinizer05and that you actually _could_ purge it is courtesy maemo general design principles21:42
DocScrutinizer05on Android you need cyanogen mod to purge such stuff21:42
KotCzarnywith updated meta package, yes21:43
Vajbi would love to purge some stuff from my gf's xcover2, but can't be arsed21:43
KotCzarnyvajb, with root on droid you can21:43
KotCzarnysimply removing apks from /sys/app etc21:44
KotCzarnyor whatever was the path21:44
Vajbit's limited to 1gb filesystem wether you have sd card or not21:44
Vajbim sure it's not that hard, but like i said "can't be arsed" :-)21:45
Vajbshe didn't cope with maemo so let her suffer mwahahah21:45
DocScrutinizer05my gf urgently wants a Neo900 - quite amazing. I guess I have to hand her a N900 first ;-)21:46
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DocScrutinizer05then otoh she's already lost on standard Luser usage patterns on android phone. So... hmmm21:47
Vajbyeah that's how it goes...21:48
Vajbheh, guess im hooked. Because while on vacation i looked all stores which sold used phones, but couldn't find any n90021:49
Vajbsaw one jolla, but was too expensive for used phone imo21:50
DocScrutinizer05maybe you want to order one from Neo900 UG?21:50
DocScrutinizer05nah, nevermind21:50
DocScrutinizer05I'm not going to engage in selling N900s21:50
KotCzarnyi would like one or more n900s21:50
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DocScrutinizer05I know I could sell a few. But the overhead doesn't make up for the margin I could make on them21:51
Vajbwhat is eta for neo900?21:51
DocScrutinizer05they cost me >100EUR plus taxes plus handling plus shipping etc21:52
DocScrutinizer05Vajb: so far 1st quarter of 201621:52
DocScrutinizer05((cost me)) for pretty much mint condition, but anyway21:53
Vajbso it's finally happening21:53
DocScrutinizer05sure, did you think it's vaporware? ;-D21:53
Vajbnot familiar with the term, but i thought it'll take few years still21:53
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DocScrutinizer05times getting tougher, demand for a device built with owner's security and privacy in mind is higher than ever before21:54
Vajbspeaking of security. Does someone do online banking on n900?21:55
DocScrutinizer05I occasionally did, indeed21:56
kerioVajb: ayy lmao21:56
KotCzarnyonline banking requires working js/java21:56
kerioyou have to harden microb a little21:56
DocScrutinizer05but really only when in a pinch21:56
keriojavascript and java are WILDLY different21:56
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KotCzarnykerio: they usually need both21:56
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kerioKotCzarny: no they don't21:56
keriobecause the iphone exists21:57
Vajbyeah my bank uses jave and i haven't got courage to even try it21:57
DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: my bank doesn't need any weird js crap for online banking21:57
KotCzarnypersonal banking usually doesnt require java signing applets21:57
KotCzarnybut js is almost a must21:57
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keriomicrob is getting a bit outdated in that regard, yeah21:58
DocScrutinizer05it's based on https, PIN, and iTANs21:58
keriofennec 17 is recent enough21:58
KotCzarnyhe he21:58
kerioDocScrutinizer05: you're forgetting the most important factor21:58
DocScrutinizer05I could do online banking with... wget21:58
Vajbmicrob hang when i tried to view local news site with it...21:59
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kerioit's a damn shame that they dropped support for the maemo ui in more recent firefoxen :(21:59
KotCzarnyas for security, apart from broken certs, n900 is quite safe (because its obscurity)21:59
DocScrutinizer05sure, those are so terribly JS infested, even my PC browser throws up on them21:59
kerioKotCzarny: the fuck it is21:59
keriopoodle and logjam21:59
keriodisabling ssl3 helps22:00
kerioand also disabling the most problematic ciphers22:00
Vajbyet another "bug" in opera also22:01
Vajbwhen wifi requires authentication it crashes22:02
Vajbso i had to authenticate with microb first and then i could browse with opera22:02
DocScrutinizer05kerio: to spoof some transaction, they would need a MITM attack on N900, or design a highly customized trojan that actually works in maemo / microB to fake the website content22:02
kerioDocScrutinizer05: are you willing to say that our ancient NSS doesn't have any security issues?22:03
keriolet alone the rest of the browser22:03
keriofor crying out loud, it doesn't even *warn* you of mixed active content22:03
DocScrutinizer05I'm using konqueror becuase of that on my PC and I guess they won't bother to write a trojan for that one. On N900 I'm probably even more safe22:03
keriothey won't write a trojan for your browser22:04
keriothey'll write a fairly generic xss exploit for /your bank/22:04
KotCzarnyusually weakest link is luser clicking on unsafe links22:04
DocScrutinizer05kerio: and how would they trick me into loading it?22:04
KotCzarnyand yes, xss is a thing22:04
keriothey'll serve it from some compromised website22:04
keriousually as an ad22:04
DocScrutinizer05only when I do web browsing22:05
DocScrutinizer05I don'zt22:05
keriocool, microb is the safest web browser ever22:05
DocScrutinizer05look, when I want to do online banking, I open up microB, go straight to my online banking URL, do my thing, and then I close browser again22:06
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DocScrutinizer05(btw I do same on my PC. Just there I might have other instances of webbrowser running concurrently - not so on N900)22:06
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DocScrutinizer05that's very basic precaustion measures when doing sensitive stuff: don't open multiple concurrent web pages. Use a freshly opened browser instance. Go *directly* to the https: URL you want to go to22:08
totalizatorI can't stop thinking - what about Jolla? any discount codes working right now?22:08
totalizatorwhat would be the lowest price I could get it for?22:09
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DocScrutinizer05I dunno if those precautions are sufficient to defeat the usual non-persistent (aka trojan) attacks. But the help a lot anyway22:11
infobotDocScrutinizer05 meant: I dunno if those precautions are sufficient to defeat the usual persistent (aka trojan) attacks. But the help a lot anyway22:12
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DocScrutinizer05err nevermind22:12
DocScrutinizer05s/trojan/non-trojan/ was what I meant22:13
Vajbmeh my reliable gprs...22:13
DocScrutinizer05for trojans I hope for maemo /microB being a too marginal ancient arcane target22:14
KotCzarnyas i said, security by obscurity22:14
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DocScrutinizer05nevertheless you probably shouldn't do online banking from your mobile device on a regular basis, unless it's specially hardened22:16
KotCzarnyor use token card22:16
DocScrutinizer05and even then, it depends on type of card22:17
KotCzarnyscratch type22:17
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sixwheeledbeastVajb: you tried qml-browser?22:18
DocScrutinizer05the type where you either input (via sort of kbd) the amount and destination account number, or it reads that stuff from display and shows it to you on a display so you can compare, is considered secure22:18
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Vajbi think i tried, but can't remember why i didn't like it22:19
DocScrutinizer05reads it from phone/PC moni display22:19
Vajbreading through xss wiki... interesting stuff22:20
KotCzarnydoc: or when you enter account nr then on the next page it's displayed and asks for token22:22
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totalizatorso, no Jolla discount codes right now? meh22:30
DocScrutinizer05 is the typical XSS attack vector which with my online banking would only work if my bank was stupid enough to add such vulnerability to their site, or *I* was so stupid to proceed to my online banking site from another website which injected the trojan into mircoB22:32
DocScrutinizer05or, even worse: I'd receive a mail on my N900 (which I generally quit to do at all) with a fake email claiming it's from my bank and advising me to click the URL below to proceed to my online banking22:33
KotCzarnyas i said, luser is the weakest link22:34
KotCzarny(which also means running vulnerable os (windoze, he he))22:34
DocScrutinizer05simple effective rules: #- *always* use a freshly opened browser instance to go to your online banking (NO Google startpage!!!) #- *diectly* enter the HTTPS-URL of your online banking (or rely on your known-good bookmarks, but *check them* nevertheless) #- do *NEVER* open a new tab in parallel to your online banking22:37
KotCzarnyor just use operation authentication method which is independent of internet22:38
DocScrutinizer05that's orthogonal22:38
KotCzarnysafe enough usually22:39
DocScrutinizer05it's another way to block worst doom, however you might disclose details you better shouldn't disclose if you don't follow the very simple 3 points above22:40
Vajbso even google startpage is bad?22:41
KotCzarnydns hacks22:41
DocScrutinizer05even when an attacker exploiting XSS couldn't instantly fake a transaction when you use such auth card, they still can read all private details you see when you access your online banking22:41
DocScrutinizer05Vajb: definitely22:41
Vajbso one should use empty startpage?22:41
KotCzarnyuse local html page if you must22:41
Vajbi see22:41
KotCzarnyquick tip: in firefox entering: g something22:42
KotCzarnygoogles for something22:42
KotCzarny(or whatever search engine you have selected)22:43
DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: later on same attacker could use that info to do some phone banking for example22:43
KotCzarnymy phone banking uses the same scratch card tokens22:43
Vajbyes i know22:43
KotCzarnybuilding cmake 2.8.12 in scratchbox, so far so good, weird no one compiled it earlier22:44
KotCzarny2.6 from extras-devel is old22:44
KotCzarnymost stuff requires 2.8.something22:44
DocScrutinizer05KotCzarny: whatever, suggesting to forget about reasonable precaution measures since you hope your scratch card is safe enough is quite silly22:45
KotCzarnydoc, i'm not suggesting that, just saying it's quite nice ADDITIONAL security22:45
DocScrutinizer05yes, that's true22:45
KotCzarnytwo-channel auth22:45
DocScrutinizer05unlike silly paypal, all decent German banks use some form of TAN to secure transactions22:46
DocScrutinizer05which is similar to your scratchcard I guess22:47
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DocScrutinizer05note that "Mobile TAN (mTAN)" is a *very* bad idea on smartphones22:49
KotCzarnyhe he22:49
KotCzarnytwo channel22:49
DocScrutinizer05same channel22:49
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kerioyou're protected if you're connecting directly to https, but still23:58

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