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| Pali | http://www.heise.de/open/meldung/Unix-Veteranen-sammeln-fuer-Debian-ohne-Systemd-2467930.html | 00:58 |
|---|---|---|
| Pali | debian was forked: https://devuan.org/ | 00:58 |
| Pali | no systemd anymore | 00:58 |
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| Luke-Jr | woo | 01:25 |
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| M4rtinK | well, there are already dozens of Debian forks | 02:09 |
| M4rtinK | like Ubuntu :) | 02:09 |
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| Pali | M4rtinK: but there is no fork without systemd | 02:35 |
| M4rtinK | Pali: that is a good point | 02:38 |
| M4rtinK | Pali: but still, I think all the systemd hate recently is more or less a needless witchhunt | 02:39 |
| M4rtinK | Pali: and really dislike how they basically chased away the debian Systemd maintainer | 02:40 |
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| Pali | M4rtinK: one thing is systemd itself and other is what happened in debian (and with systemd maintainer) | 02:41 |
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| Pali | and if there is a distribution without systemd I will switch to it | 02:42 |
| M4rtinK | any specific things about systemd you don't like ? :) | 02:42 |
| Pali | yes, first thing which I do not like is that it is big package of lot of applications which I do not need | 02:43 |
| Pali | in package with init daemon there is dhcp server... no thanks I do not need dhcp server on desktop | 02:44 |
| Pali | there is udev... again I want to use other netlink based event reciver | 02:45 |
| Pali | binary logs in non ACID database... I think that I do not need to comment this stupid idea | 02:46 |
| Pali | massive paralelism... ehm... I do not need this on my server | 02:46 |
| M4rtinK | indeed, I think some would appreciated it to be split to more packages | 02:52 |
| M4rtinK | it is built from quite distinct components anyway | 02:52 |
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| M4rtinK | hmm, the main package seems to have about 12 MB | 02:53 |
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| M4rtinK | not small, but at least storage vise not problematic | 02:54 |
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| M4rtinK | as for the dhcp server, I guess that is probably for containers/VMs ? if you don't have those it would indeed be useless | 02:56 |
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| M4rtinK | as for udev - that has some serious architectural issues in itself that one can't really blame on systemd (huge event spam when you have a lot of devices, race conditions, etc.) | 02:58 |
| M4rtinK | as for the binary logs - works good enough for me so far and I really like the systemd - journald integration | 02:59 |
| M4rtinK | so you can do stuff like journalctl -u <unit name> and get log messages from the given unit | 02:59 |
| M4rtinK | that is quite the time saver | 02:59 |
| Pali | I hate that idea of only one systemd and for everyone | 03:00 |
| M4rtinK | but it is not perfect for sure - IIRC when you enable compression, it does not compress whole log database files but individual records | 03:00 |
| M4rtinK | so it is not very effective | 03:00 |
| Pali | why they are forcing me to use only those systemd components? | 03:00 |
| M4rtinK | well, I would not really say they are forcing anyone | 03:01 |
| Pali | yes, they force me... lennart want to have systemd everywhere | 03:01 |
| M4rtinK | they just have some roadmap in mind and are working towards it | 03:02 |
| Pali | he already said that | 03:02 |
| Pali | I can understand that they create *stable* API for components and they provide one implementation of each component | 03:02 |
| M4rtinK | well, every developer wants his software everywhere | 03:02 |
| Pali | not every! | 03:02 |
| M4rtinK | or at least that it is widely used - that's kinda why most people are doing it in the first place | 03:03 |
| M4rtinK | in my opinion | 03:03 |
| M4rtinK | hmm, having an API between the component sounds good | 03:03 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, the components all talk over DBUS IIRC, but the API is probably not officially stable | 03:04 |
| Wizzup | of course not | 03:05 |
| Wizzup | that's part of the political trick | 03:05 |
| M4rtinK | of course that means more work for developers | 03:05 |
| sixwheeledbeast1 | ~uselessd | 03:05 |
| Pali | before systemd I was able to use any dhcp server, any http server, any init daemon, any udev-like program (which watch netlink), any other daemon... | 03:05 |
| Wizzup | don't document it, make heavy dependencies | 03:05 |
| Pali | now with systemd I'm forced to use only one | 03:05 |
| Wizzup | result: noone can compete with your ever changing api | 03:05 |
| M4rtinK | probably like the internal kernel API - it is not stable on purpose | 03:06 |
| sixwheeledbeast1 | covers all of the arguement against systemd | 03:06 |
| Wizzup | M4rtinK: no,no,no | 03:06 |
| Wizzup | that's completely different | 03:06 |
| Wizzup | there no competing internal kernel apis, makes no sense | 03:06 |
| M4rtinK | sixwheeledbeast1: those are the people rewriting unit files back into init scripts ? | 03:06 |
| Wizzup | there are* | 03:06 |
| sixwheeledbeast1 | ~systemd | 03:07 |
| infobot | systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too. See http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced the linux kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, or see http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ | 03:07 |
| M4rtinK | at least uselessd & OpenRC are doing something to demonstrate their case | 03:10 |
| M4rtinK | but most of the hate feels kinda like unsubstantiated trolling | 03:11 |
| M4rtinK | or outright "we like something because it is not systemd" not "we like something because it does X better than systemd" | 03:12 |
| sixwheeledbeast1 | boycottsystemd also explains the issues well. I think the issue is not just systemd, more the fact there is no option to run something else. | 03:14 |
| M4rtinK | well I see two options: 1) keep the old thing 2) develop an alternative | 03:14 |
| sixwheeledbeast1 | I would rather ubuntu stick with upstart myself | 03:15 |
| sixwheeledbeast1 | It's not like there aren't other init options. | 03:15 |
| M4rtinK | sure, but then you have to keep maintaining it | 03:17 |
| M4rtinK | as more or less only user | 03:18 |
| M4rtinK | and the Canonical CLA might prevent some people from contributing to it | 03:18 |
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| sixwheeledbeast1 | upstart was the way forward before systemd, fedora used upstart for a short period. So would you prefer that systemd took over so everybody contributed to one init system? | 03:29 |
| M4rtinK | IIRC there were talks between the future Systemd devs and the Upstart devs about contributing to Upstart | 03:30 |
| M4rtinK | but it was blocked by the canonical CLA | 03:31 |
| M4rtinK | so a separate project (systemd) was started | 03:31 |
| M4rtinK | BTW, upstart was the init in fedora before systemd IIRC | 03:31 |
| M4rtinK | and is till the init used in RHEL6, 7 has systemd | 03:31 |
| sixwheeledbeast1 | maybe this was to stop upstart becoming upstartd :P | 03:38 |
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| M4rtinK | BTW, there is a discussion about the system & upstart CLA situation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7639714 | 03:41 |
| M4rtinK | looks like I remembered it correctly :) | 03:42 |
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| sec | Is there an update OpenSSH package lying around with someone? | 14:52 |
| freemangordon | sec: update as in? | 14:54 |
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| freemangordon | as in CSSU there is openssh with some CVEs fixed | 14:55 |
| freemangordon | oh, wai | 14:55 |
| freemangordon | there is openssl :), my bad | 14:55 |
| sec | Yep, no OpenSSH | 14:56 |
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| sec | Dropbear is still at a slightly updated version, but no SFTP with it :( | 15:03 |
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| NIN101 | yeah, you must compile openssh yourself. | 15:28 |
| NIN101 | for an updated version | 15:28 |
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| sec | It spews out erros about OpenSSL headers that I can't get my head around atm | 15:38 |
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| * Wizzup is happy he finally got sip to work decently on the n900 | 17:13 | |
| Wizzup | iptel works quite well | 17:13 |
| Wizzup | (iptel.org) | 17:13 |
| Openbot | Wizzup: great | 17:14 |
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| Sicelo | :) | 17:19 |
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| Sicelo | iirc (of the major ones), only ekiga doesn't work on N900 | 17:19 |
| Openbot | Sicelo why ? | 17:20 |
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| Sicelo | something about REGISTER command .. see their wiki .. they mention it as well | 17:21 |
| Sicelo | actually i did get ekida to work, but that was only once and thereafter it never worked | 17:21 |
| Openbot | Any internet telephony that provides free calls to ph numbers or ultra cheap ? | 17:22 |
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| Sicelo | Openbot: you got me confused there .. i'm talking about Ekiga.net sip service | 17:24 |
| Openbot | Sicelo ah m asking if anything that provides cheap calls to regular numbers | 17:25 |
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| Wizzup | Sicelo: Yeah I mainly tried ekiga... | 17:37 |
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| infobot | DocScrutinizer: infobot joined! | 19:13 |
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| bencoh | freemangordon: have you tried maemo with omapdrm (kms) ? | 22:20 |
| sec | \o bencoh | 22:21 |
| bencoh | o/ | 22:21 |
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| bencoh | sec: regarding your irssi-perl package, try building on current irssi debsrc, and once everything works (no regression :) contact current maintainer, and push to extras-devel | 22:23 |
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| sec | Everything works! I'll get in touch with the dev. Lets hope he's active. | 22:41 |
| Sicelo | didn't look like. iirc i tried to contact him. | 22:42 |
| Sicelo | but do check :) | 22:42 |
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