IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2014-07-21

freemangordonchem|st: the point is that BMO is essentially unusable as of now, I am afraid if this is not fixed in a timely manner, noone will use BMO again. when it becomes fixed00:31
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Tekk_is ovi maps supposed to be incredibly slow to load?00:32
Tekk_it's been sitting on the splash for 5 minutes now at least00:33
freemangordonchem|st: maybe that CaCerts (whatever it is) could be used as a temporarily solution. I guess even a self-signed certificate will be better00:33
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bencohyup, even selfsigned would be better00:45
SiceloTekk_: N900? no00:57
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chem|stfreemangordon: talk to warfare pls01:00
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freemangordonchem|st: unfortunately he is offline, and I don;t have his email. And I guess it will be funny to send a mail to techstaff@mo :)01:02
freemangordonhe is online here01:02
freemangordonso ok, I will pester him01:02
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chem|stfreemangordon: mail techstaff01:03
Win7Macwhy would it be funny to send a mail to techstaff@mo?01:03
freemangordonbecause I am on the same mailing list, being a part of the techstaff ;). So I somehow expect to be able to talk to warfare and xes (our sysops) on the IRC01:04
freemangordonhowever, both seem to be on a holiday, so I don't think they will start to tweak the infra with bad inet access01:06
freemangordonfor sure xes is01:06
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Tekk_Sicelo: yes03:24
Tekk_sorry, had dinner and stuff03:24
Tekk_I found something...03:24
Tekk_anyone use it?03:24
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Tekk_well basically, does anyone know of a gps application that has voice direction03:35
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Tekk_so looking at the wiki it looks like waze, navit, or mapero. has anyone tried them in the dc area?03:38
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chainsawbikeTekk_, modrana has voice directions07:43
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bencohTekk_: I think marble has voice direction (doesnt it ?)10:09
Tekk_I don't think so10:09
Tekk_isn't it just kde's marble?10:09
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bencohTekk_: dunno, there is lots of "guidance" .ogg in share/ though10:13
Tekk_well I'm up to like 5 map apps downloaded at this point so I think one of them should work :P10:14
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DocScrutinizer05marble even recorded voices for fremantle11:14
DocScrutinizer05I'd be way more interested in any of them opening with POI set to the address I just clicked in contacts11:17
SiceloTekk_: and Ovi Maps :P11:17
SiceloBlaizzen & others on TMO did it.. wfm11:17
Tekk_Sicelo: ovi maps doesn't work for me11:17
Tekk_doesn't seem to anyway11:17
Siceloah, yes. sorry11:17
Tekk_it stayed on the splash screen for over 10 minutes before I killed it :P11:17
Tekk_plus it doesn't do voice navigation (at least according to the wiki)11:17
DocScrutinizer05not without a hack11:18
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Sicelothe hack works very well. Ovi Maps is the *only* maps I use (having tried the others)11:18
SiceloTekk_: i wonder if something else is not also broken on your device :p11:19
Tekk_Sicelo: could be11:19
Tekk_but I don't see breakage with anything else11:19
DocScrutinizer05I think ovi maps server is dead, or zombie, or whatever11:25
Sicelohmm, but Tekk_'s problem is on-device, i think11:26
Tekk_yeah, it's definitely an on-device thing11:26
Tekk_I think11:26
DocScrutinizer05and I wonder how long nokia supl will continue to work (if it still does)11:26
DocScrutinizer05you think?11:26
Sicelomy Ovi Maps is still working.. have just opened it now, and SUPL too11:27
DocScrutinizer05I think maps takes ages until it starts because it needs to connect to server11:27
DocScrutinizer05Tekk_: go offline, then try maps again11:28
Sicelothe one thing which i *know* is broken is the location of the maps files .. what happened is the dns name changed, and Ovi Maps still looks for Maps in old place.11:28
Sicelohowever, if the users doesn't have maps on device already, Ovi Maps *should* open, but be blank11:29
DocScrutinizer05which would sufficiently explan why ,aps is failing11:29
Tekk_offline as in offline mode?11:29
Tekk_would've thought that disables gps11:29
Tekk_or just turn off the internet connection?11:29
Siceloif that's the reason, he can easily try this:11:29
Siceloget a windows machine, install the latest ovi suite/whatever name.. that should give him maps11:30
Sicelothat's how i updated mine recently11:30
DocScrutinizer05right, offline it shows a warning, an eula (on first start) then goes completely blank and bogus11:30
DocScrutinizer05((<Tekk_> would've thought that disables gps)) huh?11:31
Tekk_offline mode. I thought it would disable all radios11:31
DocScrutinizer05GPS is no active RF technology. The device doesn't send to the sats ;-P11:32
Tekk_okay, well...11:32
Tekk_tried to start it11:32
Tekk_been loading for about 3 minutes now..11:32
DocScrutinizer05in offline mode?11:32
DocScrutinizer05that's terribly odd11:33
Veggenuhm...offline mode as in "airplane mode" should also disable radio receivers?11:33
* Tekk_ misread Veggen 11:33
VeggenDocScrutinizer: No reason except regulations?11:33
Tekk_I wouldn't rule that out tbh11:33
DocScrutinizer05never heard of such regulations11:33
VeggenI think I've heard that line on all my flights up to recently. "Any device containing transmitters or receivers has to be turned off throughout the whole journey"11:34
DocScrutinizer05that's bogus nonsense even when they tell that11:36
VeggenI agree, but it's always been that way, and that's the reason flight mode will also turn off receivers...right?11:36
DocScrutinizer05often they told "all electronic devices..."11:37
VeggenDoc: sure, but that's during takeoff and landing ;)11:37
DocScrutinizer05I don't think so11:37
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DocScrutinizer05anyway, I never checked, always thought it's a RF-TX killswitch, and nowadays it becomes obsolete since airlines start to even allow WLAN and often even GSM on board now11:38
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Sicelowow! indeed gps works in offline :P11:41
Siceloi also assumed it didn't11:41
DocScrutinizer05in the "old days" when portable electronics been rather exotic (pre-walkman) the airplanes were vulnerable to certain RF interference and first such devices (I seem to recall a diskman incident) sometimes had nasty EMI radiation that forbid using them in airplanes. Nowadays when electronic devices are ubiquitous, airplanes are hardened, and their problem nowadays is malware getting injected to flight computer via WLAN ;-P11:42
DocScrutinizer05the definition of "receiver" is fuzzy enough anyway11:43
DocScrutinizer05btw you know that even pacemakers may contain receivers?11:43
DocScrutinizer05go shut down your pacemaker during start and landing please! ;-P11:44
DocScrutinizer05and right, download of map data doesn't work at all11:49
DocScrutinizer05so maps is completely useless now11:50
DocScrutinizer05(unless you got complete map data cached already)11:50
DocScrutinizer05((nokia suite)) haha - "install windoze on your PC or you cannot use maps or even flash new firmware on your linux phone" - really a great catch by M$okia11:52
Siceloif the others were as easy to use however :(11:54
DocScrutinizer05you know what I had done instead of buying my first N900 (or even N810) when they had that policy back when?11:54
jaskaalso, if you consider bio-electronic devices11:54
jaskathen youd have to shut down a whole lot more :)11:54
kerioDocScrutinizer05: bought an OM?11:54
DocScrutinizer05for sure not. Think I had ~12 back when11:55
* Sicelo will re-read the wiki pages about GPS applications.. all i need is voice nav. & offline maps (which are relatively good for southern africa)11:59
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DocScrutinizer05offline-nav with voice, I guess12:15
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zGrrmoin :)14:26
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zipR4NDhi all, recently got an old n900, now i ask myself and the internet what ist the way to get the most up-to-date linux (preferably based on debian-wheezy) on my phone and still be able to use it as a phone ...15:58
jogaI'd say don't bother, just put the cssu maemo there and if you want debian, run it with easydebian in chroot or something15:59
DocScrutinizer05sounds like a hidden XY-problem. Why do you need most up-to-date linux, to start with?15:59
zipR4NDjoga: are there any easydebian builds for wheezy?16:00
DocScrutinizer05we need to know what's X, I.E. what you want to do so you think you need most recent linux to achieve that16:00
jogazipR4ND, dunno, see here
zipR4NDthxx joga16:01
joga(note that if you do put easydebian and the image, it's a fairly long and unstable process, ie. you cannot do anything with the phone while it extracts the image and it may crash when writing to the card16:01
zipR4NDI just want up to date security packages, and luksFS and i want to be able to install just any app i would want to install on my desktop16:01
jogabut it may just work if you leave it alone for a couple of hours16:01
jogawell you can just forget about most of that16:02
joga(unless of course your desktop is Arm also)16:02
infobotit has been said that cssu is
jogamy hunch is that maemo, with all its flaws, is the only usable (as a phone) OS for the phone16:02
zipR4NDjoga: i see16:03
DocScrutinizer05what flaws?16:03
jogawell mostly UI unfriendliness and "linuxy" "features" that make it quite unenjoyable for a "normal" person16:03
jogawhile I personally like it ok after using it for years, but try giving it to a random iphone user and they're lost16:04
joga(and so am I with an iphone)16:04
DocScrutinizer05and you think this will get better when you install e.g. gnome or kde on that tiny screen?16:04
jogacertainly not16:04
jogawhat I said was that it's the best there is16:04
DocScrutinizer05for sure16:05
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jogaI actually wanted to run wireshark on it and, well, it did work but the UI is pretty cramped with such a tiny screen16:05
DocScrutinizer05and it's sufficiently up to date as well, for all that really matters, when you use cssu16:05
jogafull of gtk widgets and stuff16:05
DocScrutinizer05and for running genuine PC linux apps, there's still easydeb16:07
TheOnlyJoey|deskzipR4ND, i recently installed a wheezy chroot using a specific image, let me find it for you16:07
zipR4NDTheOnlyJoey|desk: thxx16:07
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DocScrutinizer05while generally you want to adapt and compile your app for fremantle/hildon16:08
TheOnlyJoey|deskzipR4ND, i used but you have to use the kernel-power kernel to get it working, since that supports hf16:08
DocScrutinizer05unless it's a cmdline binary which usually just need compiling on scratchbox and off you go16:08
zipR4NDDocScrutinizer is there a nice tutorial on how to setup a dev environment for the hildon desktop? and thxx very much TheOnlyJoey|desk16:08
DocScrutinizer05there is16:09
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DocScrutinizer05or simply get16:10
infobotscratchbox is probably a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at, hosted by maemo now. Also at
DocScrutinizer05if you really want native SB (not VM), here you are:
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DocScrutinizer05zipR4ND: NB you're not supposed to build on device. You build on PC for target platform16:17
zipR4NDi know ...16:18
DocScrutinizer05then get merlin's VM image and profit :-)16:18
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DocScrutinizer05(It's not actually "merlin's", it's just the original one)16:19
zipR4NDwhere do i get merlins vm :)16:19
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at, hosted by maemo now. Also at
infobotit has been said that tabletsdev is , (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site, or
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zipR4NDcool, thanx for all the information16:21
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DocScrutinizer05lol, Mrs MONGOLISCHIMEL has to discuss a project with me. Gotta love some of them spams, really16:25
M4rtinKat least the spam is localized :)16:26
DocScrutinizer05Mrs MONGOLIS CHIMEL - SIC! and signature is concatenated16:27
VeggenI read somewhere that some of those were malformed/badly translated on purpose, as it's only those with low education etc that actually fell for them anyways, so they wanted to weed out those that for example knows how to spell.16:28
DocScrutinizer05yeah, won't help however for those who have their fun with spammers16:29
DocScrutinizer05it's a quite popular "sport" already16:30
DocScrutinizer05pick some spammer and drive him mad16:30
DocScrutinizer05feed them their own medicine16:31
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DocScrutinizer05kerio: thanks! :-)16:40
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Snafu777DocScrutinizer05: Earlier you mentioned not building on the n900 itself, why not?17:10
DocScrutinizer05too slow17:10
Snafu777Oh, but other than that, no bad issues?17:10
DocScrutinizer05well, you can't use your device for a week17:10
Snafu777Heh, I build on mine for everything, but then again, most of the programs I build are small and not that intensive17:11
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DocScrutinizer05and odds are you're wearing out the swap17:11
DocScrutinizer05remember that you got some max 100MB free for the compiler17:12
DocScrutinizer05possibly less17:12
DocScrutinizer05and swap is slooooow17:13
bencohdead slow17:14
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DocScrutinizer05maybe you can compile ddate in a easydeb or other chroot (you'll run into trouble trying to install all the libs in real root fs which also is only 245MB total)17:16
DocScrutinizer05for anything larger than that I'd not even bother17:16
DocScrutinizer05cmd: ddate17:17
DocScrutinizer05cmd: Today is Boomtime, the 56th day of Confusion in the YOLD 318017:17
Snafu777See the part about wearing out swap definately had me concerned.  Wasn't it you who said way back when that I shouldnt be concerned about wearing out the hardwear, that the writes available were a ton and whatnot?17:17
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DocScrutinizer05yes, that's true for all *normal* usecases, but for sure not for running a gcc swapping like hell for a week (literally)17:18
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Snafu777Oh, see the stuff i do compiles in under an hour =)17:19
Snafu777Ok, no worries then =)17:19
DocScrutinizer05yeah, no worries with that17:19
Snafu777what the hell would u try to compile on it that would take a week?17:19
norayrhey hey, I am trying to uninstall kernel-power and I do steps described here:,17:19
norayrI did apt-get install --reinstall -y kernel kernel-flasher okay17:20
Snafu777heh, why would u try to uninstall it norayr?17:20
norayrbut the apt-get remove -y kernel-power kernel-power-modules wants to uninstall 700 packages.17:20
norayrbecause I need uboot-pr1317:20
norayrwhich does not work with kernel-power, right?17:20
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norayrI need to boot into nemo.17:20
Snafu777No idea.  WHy not just flash?  I don't think u can easily uninstall it17:21
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grammoboygood idea to buy an n9 and put sailfish on it?17:21
kerioif you're uninstalling 700 packages, then you probably have cssu-thumb installed17:21
keriodo you?17:21
kerioanyway, you don't need to uninstall kernel power17:22
norayrhmmmm, okay17:22
keriodo you have cssu-thumb installed?17:22
norayrbut I cannot have uboot otherwise.17:22
norayrno I don't have it17:22
kerioiirc u-boot-flasher installs just fine17:23
kerioit'll just overwrite the flashed kernel17:23
norayrlet me try...17:23
kerioand then you just install kernel-power-bootimg17:23
norayrinstalling u-boot-flasher. I was installing uboot-pr13 before.17:24
kerioyeah, uboot-pr13 is not the supported version afaik17:24
DocScrutinizer05what's the name of that app that you can ask google via voice?17:25
norayri have already removed kernel-power and kernel-power-modules17:25
norayrshould i install them back or install kernel-power-bootimg makes it?17:25
DocScrutinizer05never remove kernels17:25
norayryes it makes it17:25
kerioi think the bootimg will bring back the modules at least17:26
norayrand i will have u-boot after it? i hope so.17:26
norayrbecause my usb is broken, and I have asked someone to change the battery for me.17:26
kerio...your usb is broken17:27
kerioand you're playing with kernels17:27
* kerio wants nothing to do with this shit17:27
norayrand I want to use nemo in order to copy all the data from /home etc17:27
DocScrutinizer05yeah, extremely risky business17:27
norayrand then erase smth in home and give it to someone to try to fix it.17:27
kerioto be fair, after the install it's going to be a bit sturdier17:27
kerionorayr: i hope you're aware that maemo can copy files and then delete everything17:28
DocScrutinizer05I'd install BM17:28
kerioi really don't know why you think you need a different OS17:28
keriosuch a shitty one, too17:28
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DocScrutinizer05there's like a megaton of ways to save /home17:28
kerioif you want to do heavy duty maintenance you probably want rescueOS17:28
keriobut that's for stuff like repartitioning17:28
kerioand it's fairly awful to use without usb networking17:29
norayryeah, sure. just I thought it's better to use that because /home contents gets changed at runtime. so some files might be corrupted, like abook.db etc.17:30
keriofair enough17:30
keriobut meh17:30
kerioit's close to pulling the battery out, to be honest17:30
norayrokay, anyway, I'll copy it under maemo, it's indeed better. thank you.17:31
kerioand i hope stuff is resilient enough17:31
kerionorayr: fix your flashed stuff tho17:31
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DocScrutinizer05do a proper standard backup, which will save all files that might be "open" during maemo mounted home17:36
DocScrutinizer05abook.db for sure17:37
DocScrutinizer05save the backup to card, not to phone17:37
DocScrutinizer05then use cp -ar ~user /media/card/mybackup17:38
norayrdoing it, thank you.17:38
* Snafu777 is sad. His USB port is good, but the SD card drive is all busted up17:39
Snafu777Oh well, usb is more useful than sd...17:39
norayrthat's my second n900's usb port already.17:39
norayri've heard about someone who have managed to fix one n900's usb.17:39
norayrhope he can do it.17:39
Snafu777Heh, i've been lucky, i'm on my 2nd or third n900 and i've never had a usb port issue17:39
* DocScrutinizer05 neither17:40
norayrand I have read about it and always were so careful.17:40
Snafu777I think maybe people are just violent with it17:40
* DocScrutinizer05 pulls out USB plug by fingernails17:40
Snafu777I treat my n900 with the respect due a WWII vet17:40
DocScrutinizer05business idea: sell USB puller tool17:41
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DocScrutinizer05aaah, saera been the name. And it works not the way I thought, but maybe even better than that18:37
sixwheeledbeastusb puller tool? just file the prongs off the cable.18:37
DocScrutinizer05this is wrong in so many ways18:38
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* kerio has no exposed fingernails18:41
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* drathir wonder in what way android serve boot images by usb connection its software emulate dvd/usb hdd drive?18:45
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DocScrutinizer05(fingernails) and what's maybe more important factor for no USB fatalities: never grab the USB plug on the wide sides18:50
DocScrutinizer05you can also pull it out without using (non-existent) fingernails, by simply grabbing the small sides with your winger tips and then pressing and rolling the fingertips against the case body18:52
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DocScrutinizer05I always pull my USB plugs this way on N900. It's btw the only way that needs no second hand holding the device18:53
DocScrutinizer05left hand thumb and index finger "squeezing out" the USB plug18:54
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DocScrutinizer05as soon as you need a second (right) hand you're prone to doing harm to the USB by applying levering force to the plug18:56
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DocScrutinizer05~unplug-usb is
infobotDocScrutinizer05: okay19:08
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DocScrutinizer05never hold the USB plug by "key-grip" (between tip of thumb and 2nd joint of index finger), it may already break from holding it that way, you don't even need to try and pull it out for it to break19:11
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DocScrutinizer05To:calamity@maemo . org  I really wonder where the heck those fools get their spam adresses19:20
* DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if there are mail addresses to forward spam to, so they can get files as spam by some central service19:22
r00t|homeyou also have the d->s bug in your keyboard, eh?19:22
DocScrutinizer05among others19:23
DocScrutinizer05I think my keys all have some heissenberg fuzziness in them19:24
r00t|homeyou have a s -> ss bug there19:25
r00t|homeyour keys are quantum-scale? must be a really tiny device ;)19:25
kerioi bet it's a neo900 prototype19:26
kerioin a superposition of existing and not existing19:26
DocScrutinizer05kerio: how do you like my video?19:28
infobotrumour has it, unplug-usb is
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r00t|homethat's how i naturally unplug it...19:41
r00t|homeproblem is, the more likely reason for failure is the device dropping from the table while charging19:41
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r00t|homeprobably wrong channel, but can somebody suggest a mobile device with a more ergonomic keyboard that still fits in a pocket? like a psion 5 maybe, but a bit more modern19:43
kerioDocScrutinizer05: make that a webm pls19:46
kerionvm i'll do it19:47
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DocScrutinizer05r00t|home: sorry, no idea20:03
DocScrutinizer05kerio: doesn't play in VLC, unlike the .mp420:03
keriobut it plays in firefox20:04
kerioalso it plays in vlc here20:05
r00t|homeVIDEO:  [VP80]  848x480  0bpp  29.895 fps    0.0 kbps ( 0.0 kbyte/s)20:05
r00t|homeSelected audio codec: [ffvorbis] afm: ffmpeg (FFmpeg Vorbis)20:05
r00t|homethe resolution seems a bit excessive given the subject... btw, did you shoot that with a second n900? ;)20:06
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kerioand that was the day #maemo realized that doc ran debian lenny and had an ancient version of VLC20:06
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DocScrutinizer05r00t|home: sure. Even with the first ;-)20:31
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DocScrutinizer05VLC 2.1.5 whatever that means for the plugins20:32
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DocScrutinizer05and you meanwhile should know that I don't use apt or FF on my PC20:33
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DocScrutinizer05nfc what's a webm btw20:37
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bencohgoogle-sponsored royalty-free container20:42
bencoh(audio/video container I mean)20:42
DocScrutinizer05as if we need a dozen more20:42
bencohI'd rather have chosen mkv for html5 but meh, they didnt make that choice20:43
keriomh, isn't mkv a bit too heavy for stuff like web videos?20:47
keriorealistically, you won't need 2 video streams and 7 audio streams with 14 subtitles20:48
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Humpelstilzchenkerio: why not?20:49
Humpelstilzchenpeople in my country like having the video in their language20:50
elias_akerio: Where are you from?20:50
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elias_akerio: I guess Spadolini is an Italian name...20:51
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elias_akerio: In Finland where I live we have 3 languages used in tv programmes.20:53
kerio1) dubs ruin art20:53
kerio2) embedding every language in a single file means that you have to download all audio streams regardless20:53
keriowhich is suboptimal, for something that's supposed to be "web video"20:53
elias_akerio: Sports events are always commented in 2 languages, finnish and swedish.20:53
elias_akerio: So how do you watch content shown on tv using the web service?20:55
keriono clue20:55
elias_akerio: They are now including subs.20:55
kerioeither a separate audio stream, but then you have sync issues20:55
kerioor two different video streams20:55
keriobut then you can't freely switch between languages20:55
elias_akerio: Do you live in a monolingual country?20:56
kerioi do20:56
keriobut i don't see how that's relevant in a discussion about the efficiency of a media container designed for web browsers20:56
elias_aThis discussion is quite interesting because these issues are quite meaningful in multilingual countrise.20:57
elias_akerio: I can understand that. What I'm telling you is that a media container that cannot handle multiple languages in both audio and subs is useless in multilingual countries.20:58
elias_aOf course you can go the imho idiot's way like in Belgium: different tv channels for different language audiences and that's it.20:59
elias_aBut, imho that is just dead stupid.20:59
kerioif efficiency is an issue you simply can't send all the audio streams together in a single bundle21:00
elias_akerio: The real question is whether technical efficiency is more important than language support.21:01
DocScrutinizer05sure, we need more efficiency. We get LTE now, and octocores in mobile equipment. We damn sure better create something efficient now ;-P21:01
kerio8 cores, 2 of which are used by the modem chip21:01
Humpelstilzchen.o0(sports game with different commentators)21:01
elias_akerio: The answer is really simple: language support is far more important.21:02
elias_aHumpelstilzchen: What's so odd about that? :O21:02
kerioit's kinda neat21:03
elias_aHumpelstilzchen: The logic is simple: we have a language minority a part of which really do not understand Finnish.21:05
elias_aHumpelstilzchen: It is relatively cheap to have an extra commentator speaking Swedish.21:05
elias_aAnd it is far more simple than negotiating with the swedes about co-operation :D21:06
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bencohkerio: that's the only unencombered container to my knowledge21:37
bencoh(more open than webm btw)21:37
bencohoh, and ... they dont use webm for live tv anyway21:38
bencoh(they use hls, dash, smooth, or hds ... which are all encombered and/or proprietary at some point)21:39
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keriois there a fully-open video streaming solution?21:53
TheOnlyJoey|deskkerio, multiple21:59
TheOnlyJoey|deskkerio, i think you mean something for twitch and such?21:59
keriono, i mean21:59
keriocodecs and transport21:59
keriocan theora be streamed?22:00
TheOnlyJoey|deskwell, everything can be streamed technically22:00
keriois rtmp an open standard?22:00
TheOnlyJoey|deskbut theora gets used for streaming quite a lot22:00
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bencohrtmp is not22:06
bencohadobe released a partial spec and drafts22:06
bencohdash is mpeg2 stuff22:06
bencohI mean MPEG consortium22:07
bencohhls is mpeg-ts based22:07
bencohhds and smooth are proprietary22:07
bencohthe best you can do is stream theoray/mkv stuff over http :p22:07
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DocScrutinizer05no, not everything can get streamed22:17
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DocScrutinizer05some formats are braindead and have important info at end of file22:18
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bencohindeed :)22:20
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