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| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; they're probably going to do it like Samsung does | 02:21 |
|---|---|---|
| ShadowJK | separate model for every country/area | 02:21 |
| ShadowJK | Samsung on top of that regionlocks to prevent devices meant for asia working in europe even if the frequency support was compatible | 02:22 |
| ShadowJK | They need TDD for china anyways :/ | 02:24 |
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| SpeedEvil | Happy 2014 everyone! | 03:02 |
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| ShadowJK | \o/ | 03:35 |
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| Loke | hi | 10:25 |
| Loke | http://pastebin.com/hR7kRbXP getting error | 10:27 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Loke: the preremove script fails since the jonh file etc isn't in /usr/bin but optification moved it to /opt/*/* and created a symlink | 10:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: quite possible their OEM isn't offering anything different to this. But they _again_ created a communication MCA by "countries that Jolla can operate will get defined later" (OWTTE) and then "works on 6 continents"(OWTTE) and now the already anticipated fsckup re US UMTS | 11:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, Murphy cup in Platinum. It's incredible how they spot every single opportunity to screw up something | 11:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly when that opportunity is faintly related to their communications policy | 11:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | poor devil tehdely will probably be locked in to his 900/2100 version, even when Qualcom/OEM eventually will flash a US version to the same snapdragon chipset, this version can't get flashed to devices already sold to customers, since Qualcom prefers to not allow distribution of that modem firmware | 11:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (and of course the device would need new calibration when switchng it to other firmware/bands) | 11:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's pretty funny to see how the Jolla design in a strange way resembles OM Neo1973 | 11:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | only that Openmoko always provided debug board to flash new bootloader via JTAG, and properly documented how to do that | 11:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, actually meanwhile the basic system architecture regarding booting almost resembles Freerunner, with the auxiliary NOR-boot to recover from catastrophic damage of main bootloader by powering up while holding AUX button | 11:28 |
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| Loke | hi doc | 11:32 |
| Loke | got it but how can I remove it | 11:40 |
| Loke | its killing me dude please help me | 11:49 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yay, (s)he's not very persistent, eh? | 12:25 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway, I also had a hard time to tell what's the best method to fix broken uninstall. Might install again, them de-optify the files (i.e. move back the files from /opt/ to the original location, thus nuking the symlinks), then maybe edit the .prerm in /var/*/dpk/*/<packagename> somewhere to fix any messup in there. Then uninstall again. But I'm pretty sure there's a hardcore method - maybe a parameter --force or sth - to make apt/dpkg " | 12:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | succeed" with uninstalling john | 12:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, and somebody might open a ticket against john: "doesn't uninstall" | 12:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pkg | 12:29 |
| infobot | i guess pkg is http://maemo.org/packages/ | 12:29 |
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| solofight | people, where can i find a material to learn how to use appmefo ? i installed it and created a folder and added all games into it but the folder is not visible on my menu and all games that i added are still lying outside on the main menu | 15:31 |
| solofight | dont know what i am missing | 15:31 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | solofight: that sounds pretty starnge | 16:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | solofight: have you saved your setup in apmefo? | 16:09 |
| solofight | DocScrutinizer05: the mistake is mine - i saved but did not press the activate button | 16:09 |
| solofight | tried it and it worked | 16:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | solofight: open apmefo settings, create a folder, name and icon and all, store and quit | 16:10 |
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| solofight | one hard factor is that it did not create its own folders and put icons accordingly like cateroise does | 16:10 |
| solofight | we need to manually create all folders and its icons and then add apps | 16:10 |
| solofight | is that correct ? DocScrutinizer05 ? | 16:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's the feature of apmefo | 16:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I discarded catorize after a week since I never could get used to the silly sorting that it automatically creates | 16:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and back in that time at least, catorize didn't allow user to create own folders and sort apps to her liking | 16:15 |
| FIQ | catorize base its' sorting on HAM I think | 16:16 |
| solofight | DocScrutinizer05: yes "It did not allow me to customize" and thats the reason i ditch it | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | solofight: just NEVER try to drag an icon on hildon applauncher dirextly | 16:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: correct | 16:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | if you do nonetheless, you'll instantly lose all apmefo created submenus, and you have to start apmefo (possibly via cmdline) and hit activate again | 16:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder if eventually somebody could intergarte apmefo and Hildon Applauncher | 16:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I.E. make apmefo a part of hildon-home or hildon-desktop or whatever | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | for CSSU | 16:20 |
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| FIQ | hildon applauncher? what's that? | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | this would fix the "must not drag icons" issue | 16:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: the way you start your apps on hildon? | 16:21 |
| FIQ | oh ok | 16:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | instead of "must not drag icons" you could then allow to drag icons to submenus even | 16:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | instead of doing that in generic apmefo interface | 16:22 |
| solofight | DocScrutinizer05: you mean do not drag an icon from the hildon app manager to a folder created using apmefo ? (like dragging chess icon from games folder) correct ? | 16:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I mean "do not drag any icon, EVER, ANYWHERE" | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in applauncher | 16:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you quite obviously can't drag an icon out of a subfolder since there's nothing to drag it to | 16:25 |
| solofight | so if i want to rearrange an icon within the hildon manager, how do i do i t? | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and you can't drag an icon into a submenu folder since hildon desktop/applauncher doesn't support that | 16:26 |
| FIQ | you don't @ solofight | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | exactly | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you sue apmefo to do that | 16:26 |
| solofight | ohh | 16:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | use* | 16:27 |
| solofight | guess thats the tradeoff | 16:27 |
| FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: btw, can I still *access* the interface (and then leave it) without hurting apmefo? | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hmm? | 16:27 |
| FIQ | because when device starts up, there's slight lag | 16:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which interface? what access? | 16:27 |
| FIQ | and I occasionally invoke that move thing accidentally | 16:27 |
| FIQ | the hold="give new place" thing | 16:28 |
| solofight | DocScrutinizer05: can i drag the icon in the desktop ? to arrange my widgets and stuff ? | 16:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: I somehow disabled that on my device | 16:29 |
| FIQ | you can do that? | 16:29 |
| FIQ | TIL | 16:29 |
| FIQ | ...how | 16:29 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I *guess* in tweakr | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or in CSSU settings | 16:32 |
| antithesis_ | Where can I get a list of devices that run on Maemo or something based on it? | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N900, N810, N800 | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | here you are | 16:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 16:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, some say N950, N9 | 16:33 |
| solofight | :P | 16:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | some disagree | 16:33 |
| antithesis_ | Why do some disagree on that? | 16:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | in my book HARM!=maemo | 16:33 |
| antithesis_ | HARM? | 16:34 |
| antithesis_ | Does it harm me? | 16:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | possibly | 16:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it for sure harms *me* | 16:34 |
| FIQ | N770 too afaik | 16:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | i left that out since I guess pretty few of them exist and still work | 16:35 |
| FIQ | pretty sure the same case applies for N8x0 :p | 16:35 |
| antithesis_ | > N810, N800 | 16:36 |
| antithesis_ | Why do they always add 10 to it when there's an update? | 16:36 |
| antithesis_ | Same with Blackberry Torch 9800 / 9810 | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nah, I have two N810 here, one powered up and fine | 16:36 |
| FIQ | and the other? | 16:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the other is pretty pristine | 16:37 |
| antithesis_ | DocScrutinizer05 what's so harmful about MeeGo? | 16:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~aegis | 16:38 |
| infobot | http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif | 16:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | to start with | 16:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and the "can't downgrade firmware" policy resulting from it | 16:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~malf | 16:39 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, malf is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg | 16:39 |
| FIQ | it offers no real security and is mostly a roadblock to be able to do what you want | 16:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 16:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I hate devices with built-in self-destruct function | 16:40 |
| antithesis_ | Hmpf | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | particularly when the trigger button is integrated into a random number of ordinary files that you mustn't touch | 16:41 |
| antithesis_ | As horrible as I find that, I can't live with a resistive touch screen | 16:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~may-i-edit | 16:41 |
| infobot | mayIedit () { grep "`basename $1`" /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist && echo "probably not" && return; echo "edit if you feel venturous"; } | 16:41 |
| antithesis_ | Should I expect the N9's touch screen to be as responsive as, say, that of a modern Samsung Galaxy? | 16:42 |
| antithesis_ | Or a slightly less modern one for that matter, like the Galaxy S I / II | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | err, it's a capacitive touchscreen. I guess they all are pretty much the same | 16:42 |
| antithesis_ | Nah | 16:42 |
| antithesis_ | I ordered a chinkphone once and its screen was horrid | 16:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | they are, since I hate them all ;-P | 16:43 |
| antithesis_ | Yeah, same | 16:43 |
| antithesis_ | But there aren't really many options when it comes to keyboards | 16:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | huh? | 16:43 |
| antithesis_ | Too few smartphones have keyboards so I'll succumb | 16:44 |
| jaska | im the other way around, ill sooner stop using a phone than get a keyboardless phone. | 16:44 |
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| FIQ | while technically true, it's not relevant to touch screen technology | 16:44 |
| FIQ | @ antithesis_ | 16:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 16:44 |
| ShadowJK | N810W was left from that list | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just was about to ask how touchscreen is related to kbd | 16:45 |
| FIQ | what's N810W | 16:45 |
| FIQ | ? | 16:45 |
| ShadowJK | I wonder how many of those were made, couldn't have been many | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's a weird device | 16:45 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and rare | 16:45 |
| ShadowJK | Though more than the 3D display N810 for sure :) | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N810 with errr, how's it called? | 16:45 |
| FIQ | (I was never around in N770-N810 days allthough I did consider a N810 back in the day) | 16:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | WAN? | 16:45 |
| jaska | wimax? | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wimax! | 16:46 |
| antithesis_ | jaska I'm kinda the same, actually. I sold my Chinkphone because it was too shitty, but just now I tried out some note-taking on my mom's Sony device and it was actually quite pleasant, better than I'd expected | 16:46 |
| FIQ | huh? | 16:46 |
| FIQ | what is this :D | 16:46 |
| FIQ | @ DocScrutinizer05 ShadowJK | 16:46 |
| jaska | i had to think hard to remember what was the name of that hypedup wlan/wwan tech :( | 16:46 |
| antithesis_ | So maybe it was just the touch screen on that one chinkphone that was so shit, not 'all touchscreens' | 16:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | glorified WiFi | 16:46 |
| antithesis_ | That being said, I never checked if it was because of the screen protected I'd placed over it or not | 16:46 |
| jaska | and to consider i was involved in some of that shit ages ago. | 16:46 |
| jaska | (wlan/wwan, not n810) | 16:46 |
| antithesis_ | I don't know, do screen protectors make the screens less responsive? | 16:46 |
| ShadowJK | I'd actually like if wifi used wimax type media access control | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | screen protector on a capacitive touch? LOL! | 16:47 |
| ShadowJK | wifi more or less copies ethernet csma/cd | 16:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | cd? | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hardly ;-) | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, RX side maybe | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not even that | 16:48 |
| antithesis_ | DocScrutinizer05 what's so funny about it? >_< | 16:48 |
| ShadowJK | So weak stations can hog the channel for ages.. wimax gives each station a time slot, when time is up next station gets the channel regardless if first got through any data or not | 16:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | antithesis_: c-ts and protectors don't go together well | 16:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | physics | 16:49 |
| FIQ | a couple of friends with jollas use them w/o issues afaik | 16:49 |
| FIQ | but I never tried myself | 16:49 |
| FIQ | since I don't own a device with capacitive ts | 16:50 |
| antithesis_ | Hm | 16:50 |
| antithesis_ | And all capacitative touch screens are on-par? | 16:50 |
| antithesis_ | with each other | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | some protectors may have less negative impact than others, but all of them do no good to capacitive touch | 16:50 |
| ShadowJK | "Responsive touchscreen" is pretty complex topic really, because there's two sides to it. The delay between finger touching, and the electronics detecting it and passing it on to CPU, and the time it takes for CPU and OS to process it, and the time it takes to display something on screen | 16:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | antithesis_: for sure not, there are better and inferior controller chips | 16:51 |
| antithesis_ | I'm not talking about how fast it is, ShadowJK , but how accurate | 16:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | also what ShadowJK said | 16:51 |
| ShadowJK | My firefox os phone just about manages to detect which quadrant of the screen is touch ;p | 16:51 |
| antithesis_ | lol | 16:51 |
| ShadowJK | It also does something I havent seen since mid 90s Nokia: Dust collecting between the layers of the screen | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OMG! | 16:52 |
| antithesis_ | So, to rephrase the question: are all capacitative touch screens as accurate? | 16:52 |
| ShadowJK | no | 16:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that largely depends on particular build | 16:52 |
| ShadowJK | There are tests | 16:52 |
| ShadowJK | where people have used capacitive stylus and rulers to draw grid pattern on screen in some paint program | 16:53 |
| * FIQ can't use capacitive screens with his nails, therefore they are annoying | 16:53 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there are remarkably more designs on c-ts than you can read about on wikipedia | 16:53 |
| ShadowJK | the worst show a wavy grid, many have distortion at the edges | 16:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | while for resistive ts wikipedia seems to almost have a comprehensive list of known technologies and variants | 16:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | btw i recently found out about SG Note-2: it has c-ts plus wacom style inductive hybrid | 16:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so yes, you can use stylus on note-2, but not arbitrary sylus but only special inductive type | 16:56 |
| ShadowJK | antithesis_; http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/diytouchscreenanalysis3.jpg | 16:56 |
| ShadowJK | http://mashable.com/2010/01/11/touchscreen-comparison/ | 16:57 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ^^^ ROTFL!! | 16:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | now that's pretty bad | 16:59 |
| jaska | worst touchscreen ive ever used: sph-m550 | 17:00 |
| jaska | (yes its a cdma phone, didnt use the cdma parts in .fi) | 17:00 |
| ShadowJK | DocScrutinizer05; you disassembled your jolla? | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | nope | 17:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | shall I? | 17:01 |
| ShadowJK | or was the antennae comments from exterior inspection? | 17:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 17:02 |
| ShadowJK | ah | 17:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | looks nasty to disassemble | 17:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | but... that#s probably always the case | 17:02 |
| ShadowJK | I suspect the design has some nasty flex issues.. | 17:02 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 17:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | what makes me wonder: it has no visible testpads *anywhere* | 17:03 |
| ShadowJK | judging by the number of "sim card is lost when phone is in pocket", and battery contact glitches | 17:03 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | pulling off TOH is a major PITA anyway | 17:04 |
| ShadowJK | Mine is loose in one corner, so it's easy to start there | 17:04 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 can't figure how any PCB mounted to that wobbly TOH plastic shall survive that procedure | 17:05 | |
| *** sequantz__ is now known as sequantz | 17:05 | |
| ShadowJK | I was very amused yesterday when jolla cellmo stopped working :) N900 feature-parity with autosuicide modem :D | 17:05 |
| ShadowJK | Anyone making TOH with any features would have to do a new design, and make phone thicker.. | 17:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | really? | 17:06 |
| FIQ | oh joy | 17:06 |
| FIQ | apparently my ext3 is corrupted again | 17:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just tested the RFID tag in TOH: N9 says "this tag has no content" - as usual | 17:07 |
| ShadowJK | There's a hundred or so people with modem issues, judging by the number of votes "disappearing SIM" has | 17:07 |
| FIQ | and I'm positive that I did not shutdown the device incorrectly | 17:07 |
| FIQ | perhaps my eMMC is simply starting to fail | 17:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: that's annoying | 17:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: sounds like I should get rid of the thing ASAP | 17:08 |
| FIQ | this time it seems only xchat scrollback was affected | 17:08 |
| FIQ | hmm | 17:08 |
| ShadowJK | There seems to be a sensor/switch in the sim bay, which touches the side of sim card.. seems tolerances in sim cards are much bigger than what the switch is designed for | 17:08 |
| ShadowJK | and also frame flex | 17:08 |
| FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: can I somehow make a full FS check to which files are having issues? | 17:09 |
| FIQ | without repairing that is | 17:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: err, fsck has a check-only option | 17:09 |
| ShadowJK | FIQ; cd /home ; ls -lhRa > /dev/null | 17:09 |
| FIQ | so I know if I can just make a backupmenu backup (and having it fail to save files with issues) and restore from that right away | 17:09 |
| FIQ | ShadowJK: yeah something like that, ty | 17:10 |
| ShadowJK | wont detect files with garbage in them, but i dont know what would | 17:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | umm, ls? | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | will ls detect broken inode chains? | 17:11 |
| FIQ | it only managed to find these scrollback files I mentioned | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ls is only reading dir inodes, no? | 17:11 |
| FIQ | "stale NFS file handle" | 17:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ouch | 17:11 |
| ShadowJK | -lh makes it access inodes | 17:12 |
| FIQ | this is interesting | 17:12 |
| FIQ | because | 17:12 |
| ShadowJK | instead of jsut listing directory contents | 17:12 |
| FIQ | I've had this issue 4 times | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | standard filesystem response when an inode is of fubar "type" | 17:12 |
| FIQ | *all* of them has been related to xchat | 17:12 |
| FIQ | does xchat do something weird with files on maemo? | 17:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not really, just writing like mad | 17:13 |
| FIQ | hm | 17:13 |
| FIQ | perhaps I should disable scrollback and logging | 17:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I seriously discourage doing IRC logs on embedded | 17:13 |
| ShadowJK | I noticed I started experiencing "ext3 corrupt after unexpected shutdown" much more frequently after I enabled browsed disk cacehe... And if the fs is damaged once, it often gets worse from use even without more unexpected crash/reboot | 17:13 |
| FIQ | DocScrutinizer05: well this time it was scrollback | 17:13 |
| FIQ | and afaik that is on by default | 17:13 |
| FIQ | (logging isn't though) | 17:13 |
| FIQ | all right | 17:14 |
| FIQ | so let's turn that xchat setting off | 17:14 |
| ShadowJK | oh... | 17:14 |
| FIQ | and backup/restore via backupmenu | 17:14 |
| ShadowJK | do you have cssu? | 17:14 |
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| FIQ | yes ShadowJK | 17:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess xchat does several dozen writes per second, for logs | 17:14 |
| ShadowJK | I have cssu thumb, and noticed /home mount options are different from stock | 17:15 |
| FIQ | I'm not sure if the corruption issues arised from cssu | 17:15 |
| ShadowJK | So, if I remember (which I havent since last boot), I do mount /dev/mmcblk0p2 /home -o remount,noatime,nodiratime,commit=1 | 17:15 |
| FIQ | but I never had issues w/o cssu | 17:15 |
| ShadowJK | iirc that's how it was in stock | 17:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | noatime,nodiratime for sure | 17:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | commit=1 I'm not sure | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway I start to feel unhappy with CSSU | 17:17 |
| FIQ | k logging turned off and verified off | 17:17 |
| ShadowJK | I always assumed it came from Nokia QA battery-removal tests | 17:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anybody familiar with fail2ban? | 17:18 |
| FIQ | I'll shut down xchat nicely, re-do ls "scan" to verify that it didn't break anything else (especially not system important files) as of we speaking, and let backupmenu do its' thing | 17:18 |
| * Ashley` ...kinda | 17:18 | |
| FIQ | kthxbai | 17:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | FIQ: oh yes! you must quit xchat proper, otherwise settings are not saved | 17:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | Ashley`: any hints what to check/customize after installation? | 17:19 |
| Ashley` | vim /etc/fail2ban/jail.conf | 17:20 |
| Ashley` | :v | 17:20 |
| Ashley` | add your home IP address to "Exclude" section | 17:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's exactly the sort of hint I hoped for | 17:20 |
| Ashley` | write some customized jails for your nginx v: | 17:20 |
| Ashley` | (oh, not using nginx? install nginx then xD) | 17:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | what about that weird auto-mailing | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is that actually a good idea to keep/use? | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mailto-whois etc | 17:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | seems like it's more a way to make my own box look rogue | 17:24 |
| * Ashley` uses another program for sending logwatches | 17:24 | |
| Ashley` | i don't remember its name | 17:24 |
| Ashley` | it sends me summary of logs every day | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mailto-whois doesn't send logs but complaints | 17:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sounds pretty weird. and scary | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | # Sends a complaint e-mail to addresses listed in the whois record for an | 17:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | # offending IP address. | 17:25 |
| Ashley` | oh | 17:25 |
| Ashley` | hm | 17:26 |
| Ashley` | I don't have it turned on. | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | at least I guess that's what "sendmail-whois[name=sasl, dest=you@example.com]" does | 17:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh, judging by the mailaddr template, it isn't | 17:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so wtf means sendmail-whois? | 17:28 |
| Ashley` | maybe it sends whois output of banned IPs to you | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /etc/fail2ban/jail.conf is full of that stuff | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aah, maybe | 17:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess I don't want an email for each scanner hammering my box | 17:31 |
| Ashley` | yeah | 17:31 |
| solofight | already added apps are still showing in the list of apps to be added for a new folder in apmefo | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sometimes 3 or 5 per day | 17:31 |
| solofight | :( | 17:31 |
| ShadowJK | Such email reports used to be marked "Idiot with firewall" | 17:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | solofight: they don't vanish there | 17:31 |
| ShadowJK | at ISPs | 17:31 |
| Ashley` | daily log summary (including fal2ban.log) is better v: | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | otherwise you couldn't add them to multiple submenus | 17:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: yep, that's however my least worry | 17:33 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: my box on blacklists would be worse | 17:33 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 17:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the huger the ISP the higher the probability of my box sending multiple complaints and the higher the impact/damage from getting onto the blacklist of that ISP/provider | 17:35 |
| solofight | DocScrutinizer05: what i mean is if an icon is already selected to be a part of a folder it should not be in the list of appls which i can add to for another folder ... right ? | 17:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | wrong | 17:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | solofight: they don't vanish there otherwise you couldn't add them to multiple submenus | 17:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I admit that's a bit of a hassle to sort out which app is already "used"/covered | 17:40 |
| solofight | exactly | 17:40 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I used to do that by saving one folder's config, then switching between apmefo settings and that folder in appstarter | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's also a trick of directly editing the apmefo local config files, I guess | 17:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or you print out a list of all existing apps - to paper copy - and checkmark each single one you handled | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on the bright side: that problem is a clear one-time issue | 17:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | later installed apps are relatively easy to handle | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since you deal with only one app at a time | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so this is a 60 min of hassle that really pay back | 17:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | doonce, profit forever | 17:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when you get lazy, you end with some few apps in root menu, see my screenshot ;-) | 17:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I eventually should move bq27-monitor to system, and Opera to utils | 17:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and maybe opera also to core apps? | 17:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Ashley`: is "exclude" actually named "ignoreip"? | 17:47 |
| Ashley` | oh | 17:48 |
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| Ashley` | yeah | 17:48 |
| solofight | DocScrutinizer05: apmefo local config files ! ? how to edit them ? | 17:48 |
| Ashley` | I edited it a long time ago... | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | solofight: no idea | 17:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Ashley`: the problem is: I have dynamic local IP | 17:49 |
| Ashley` | oh | 17:49 |
| Ashley` | so, you've no problem with bans | 17:49 |
| solofight | apmefo settings and that folder in appstarter ? here do you mean the folder which i created and the root menu ? | 17:49 |
| Ashley` | ban -> reconnect (another ip) -> you're not banned :D | 17:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not THAT dynamic | 17:49 |
| Ashley` | hm... | 17:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | like "changes every other week" | 17:49 |
| Ashley` | Maybe you can make some script that autoupdates config :v | 17:50 |
| Ashley` | Or hope you'll not get banned | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I guess I can't use IP ranges or URLs there? | 17:50 |
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| Ashley` | You can use IP ranges | 17:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's fine for me then | 17:50 |
| Ashley` | I don't know about URLs... you're thinking about domains? | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | a /16 is better than nothing already | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yep | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dyndns | 17:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | prolly can even use a /24 | 17:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or at least a /20 | 17:52 |
| FIQ | worked just fine | 17:53 |
| FIQ | nice | 17:53 |
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| FIQ | I lost 18 files | 17:56 |
| FIQ | all related to scrollback | 17:57 |
| FIQ | otherwise backup went seamless | 17:57 |
| FIQ | apart from a million timestamp errors as I didn't bother to set system time | 17:57 |
| Ashley` | DocScrutinizer05, # "ignoreip" can be an IP address, a CIDR mask or a DNS host. | 17:58 |
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| Ashley` | DocScrutinizer05, so, I think you can use dyndns or somthing like that | 17:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 18:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Ashley`: where the heck are the manpages? | 18:04 |
| Ashley` | dunno :v | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | Ashley`: what is a <JAIL>? | 18:04 |
| Ashley` | ~$ ssh ashley.re man -k fail2ban | 18:04 |
| Ashley` | fail2ban-client (1) - configure and control the server | 18:04 |
| Ashley` | fail2ban-regex (1) - test Fail2ban "failregex" option | 18:04 |
| Ashley` | fail2ban-server (1) - start the server | 18:04 |
| Ashley` | here | 18:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | fail2ban-client is pretty complex | 18:04 |
| Ashley` | jail is... uh... my english skills suck... :f | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | funny enough man -k fail2ban doesn't yield anything for me, seems there's missing some re-indexing | 18:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | is JAIL each of the [ssh-iptables] etc sections? | 18:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so, is ssh-iptables a <jail>? | 18:07 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | or is the complete jail.conf one <JAIL>? | 18:09 |
| Ashley` | see etc/fail2ban/jails.d or something like that | 18:09 |
| Ashley` | jails are defined there | 18:09 |
| Ashley` | they're... rules for banning | 18:10 |
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| Ashley` | fail2ban works by parsing logs and comparing lines to regexps and counting occurences AFAIK | 18:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I have no etc/fail2ban/jails.d or similar, just filters.d and action.d | 18:11 |
| Ashley` | `oh | 18:11 |
| Ashley` | sorry | 18:11 |
| Ashley` | filters.d | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes, that's what I thought | 18:11 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aaah, ok, filters.d jas the JAILs then | 18:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | this package could use some docs/HowTo | 18:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | set <JAIL> addignoreip <IP> | 18:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | adds <IP> to the ignore list of <JAIL> | 18:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | from man fail2ban-client | 18:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the dest=<maladdr> on every section is pretty weird. you'd exopect that to be a macro or global setting or default | 18:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://privatepaste.com/abc7fd3239 \o/ | 18:32 |
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| mx32 | hi i wondered what were you guys thoughts on jolla? | 18:35 |
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| jdoles | How do I disable all e-mail for a particular account during a particular time period? I would like to control this either via some UI or via a script. | 18:40 |
| jdoles | (N900) | 18:41 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | jdoles: diable all email? | 19:00 |
| ShadowJK | Presumably he'd like to disable auto-update for a single account, for a specific time period | 19:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that seems hard to accomplish | 19:07 |
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| jdoles | DocScrutinizer05: I just want an API to disable a particular account between two dates (or in general a set of dates). | 19:13 |
| jdoles | The previous CSSU upgrade was noticably better than anything before; the RAM improvements are noticable. | 19:14 |
| jdoles | So, to whoever is responsible for that: good job. | 19:15 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 20:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | jdoles: (mail) I think that's not supported | 20:23 |
| jdoles | DocScrutinizer05: what's there to o.O about? | 20:24 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I don't know of any RAM savings in latest CSSU | 20:25 |
| jdoles | DocScrutinizer05: not the latest. | 20:25 |
| jdoles | DocScrutinizer05: the one before that. | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | except of course you're on cssu-thumb | 20:25 |
| jdoles | DocScrutinizer05: yeah, that one. | 20:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aaah | 20:25 |
| jdoles | They should have done this when the phone was released. | 20:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | htey didn't know how to do it | 20:26 |
| freemangordon | about 2-3MB less code in latest -thumb | 20:26 |
| freemangordon | or even more | 20:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | it's been freemangordon who was the awesome genius to find out how to implement the thumb-bugfix | 20:27 |
| freemangordon | :) | 20:27 |
| jdoles | How is it possible that a bunch of open-source hobbyists are better than 100,000 employees? | 20:27 |
| freemangordon | despite those saying it is impossible :P | 20:27 |
| jdoles | Or just freemangordon by himself, that's it. | 20:27 |
| jdoles | er that is. | 20:27 |
| freemangordon | jdoles: I can afford it | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | well, basically nobody did care | 20:28 |
| freemangordon | noone will want his money back from me ;)( | 20:28 |
| jdoles | freemangordon: are you a millionaire with too much time on your hands? | 20:28 |
| freemangordon | no | 20:28 |
| ShadowJK | The experts were "It's fixed in newest chip version" or smth | 20:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 20:28 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | this is a bug only on some of our CPUs | 20:29 |
| freemangordon | jdoles: If I were, I'd have funded the neo900 project :)( | 20:29 |
| freemangordon | WTF is with that bracket? | 20:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and nobody at Nokia or anywhere else wanted to invest the time to find a better bugfix than "don't use thumb" | 20:29 |
| jdoles | It sounds like a billion dollar mistake. | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | TI did it | 20:30 |
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| jdoles | Someone didn't write the contracts correctly then. | 20:30 |
| freemangordon | jdoles: afaik Nokia planed to use thumb, but it turned out that chips are buggy | 20:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | who knows | 20:30 |
| freemangordon | *planned | 20:31 |
| ShadowJK | Also SR | 20:31 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 20:31 |
| ssvb | DocScrutinizer05: it was just decided not to take the risk, all the thumb issues and available workarounds were known and taken into account when making the decision :) | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | the best contract can't fix a chip | 20:31 |
| jdoles | DocScrutinizer05: no, but it can fix billions of dollars. | 20:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ssvb: sounds sensible | 20:31 |
| jdoles | Then again, probably TI doesn't want to take on such contracts. | 20:31 |
| freemangordon | ssvb: hmm, I beg to disagree (all were known), binutils were fixed somewhere in late 2010 or 2011 | 20:32 |
| jdoles | It would have been interesting if some spy agency would turn out to have sabotaged the chips. | 20:32 |
| ssvb | freemangordon: hmm, are you really sure? | 20:32 |
| freemangordon | lemme check it again, but iirc | 20:32 |
| jdoles | (to eliminate another mobile player from the market) | 20:33 |
| jdoles | (and in particular a non-American company) | 20:33 |
| ShadowJK | TI did exit the market | 20:33 |
| freemangordon | ssvb: hmm, I am mistaken | 20:33 |
| freemangordon | it is 2009 | 20:33 |
| freemangordon | ssvb: but why then? | 20:34 |
| freemangordon | makes no sense | 20:34 |
| somedude238 | With all the Privacy Issues Today, I wonder why are you still using Maemo? I mean, with the non-free bits it more or less sure that meamo does spy on you like any other mobile os. So.... how will you react to this? | 20:34 |
| ssvb | freemangordon: in any case, I remember that the errata list from arm included the recommendations to patch the linker, and the preliminary patches were available at the time | 20:34 |
| freemangordon | somedude238: broadband modem in n900 does not have access o the APE memory | 20:36 |
| freemangordon | *to | 20:36 |
| ShadowJK | Funny that, with all the privacy issues today, I wonder why more people aren't using maemo | 20:36 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 20:36 |
| ssvb | freemangordon: the thumb issues were discovered one after another, it was not like a nice and *complete* list of thimb issues was available right from the start | 20:36 |
| freemangordon | ssvb: I see | 20:37 |
| freemangordon | there was a fear there will be some undiscovered issue? | 20:37 |
| ssvb | freemangordon: yes | 20:38 |
| * ShadowJK vaguely recalls mru discovering new hw bugs every week | 20:39 | |
| freemangordon | ssvb: yep, makes sense. though if it was me to decide, I'd have taken the risk. | 20:39 |
| freemangordon | as "the risk" is some application crashing once a month, which happens anyway, with or without thumb :) | 20:40 |
| somedude238 | freemangordon: seeing only modem is narrow for a perspective. Let me give you an example. If I put in my simcard, suddendly I recive various "configuration" sms, then meamo doesn something I don't know what and I'm suddendly subscriber to some "mynokia" service I have to opt out after.... sound like an privacy issue to me. | 20:40 |
| freemangordon | somedude238: that "issue" is well known for, how much, 3 years? | 20:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | freemangordon: (take the risk) that's the difference | 20:42 |
| freemangordon | and is actually the only known privacy issue. And believe me, there are people who known what is inside maemo, I doubt a real privacy issue would have passed unnoticed so far | 20:42 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: I did something similar in my RL job | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and notmynokia issue is even implemented into maemo in a pretty obvious way | 20:43 |
| ShadowJK | Maemo might be an exception in that it tells you when operator has sent conifugration data | 20:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~notmynokia | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | damn | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listvalues mynokia | 20:44 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'mynokia' by value returned no results. | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh | 20:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | anyway mynokia issue is not related to inbound config SMS | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not at all | 20:45 |
| somedude238 | freemangordon: so thinking about secret laws, secret contracts and not so secret NDAs, do you think who ever did work for nokia and knows about privacy issues is allowed to talk about it without facing serious legal issues? just saying | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | N900 actively sends out a SMS | 20:45 |
| freemangordon | somedude238: I don;t talk about ex-nokians | 20:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: we know our shit | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we don't need sekrit info from inside Nokia | 20:46 |
| freemangordon | right now on the channel there are at least 10 people who know almost everything on how the suff in maemo works | 20:46 |
| freemangordon | stuff even | 20:46 |
| ShadowJK | Even so, question is why would maemo be any more exposed to agency meddling than other systems | 20:46 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hah, rather less | 20:47 |
| freemangordon | anyway, /me is back to REing fmtxd | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | \o/ | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | gooo freemangordon GOOOOO! | 20:47 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: for some strange reason I was thinking there is only ARM binary | 20:47 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hm? | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | x86? | 20:48 |
| freemangordon | I was like WTF?!? yesterday when I discovered there is x86 binary too :) | 20:48 |
| freemangordon | yep | 20:48 |
| freemangordon | and it is easy to RE some 30k x86 binary | 20:48 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 20:49 |
| freemangordon | with the almighty hexrays armed :D. BFG9000, you know ;) | 20:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | however watch out that it#s not a fake/dummy to make maemo work on platform without FM | 20:50 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: rephrase please, can't parse | 20:50 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on some ends they must have sneaked in dummies | 20:50 |
| freemangordon | (still some hangover left over :) ) | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | maemo x86 supposed to run on a platform that has no FM chip thus no sysnodes for it. Rest of system want's to emulate this | 20:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so fmtxd might be a dummy stub that doesn't do anything | 20:51 |
| freemangordon | DocScrutinizer05: naah, it is ok, it searches for some files in /tmp if it can't find the real files :) | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | just gives an API that returns "OK, whatever you say" | 20:52 |
| freemangordon | no, the code looks just ok | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | HAH! | 20:52 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-) | 20:52 |
| freemangordon | '/tmp/dummy.vbus', '/tmp/dummy.charger' :D | 20:53 |
| * freemangordon likes the names | 20:53 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so they redirected the sysfs nodes to tmp/dummy.txt files? smart? | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LOL? | 20:53 |
| freemangordon | :nod: | 20:53 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | my guessing is good, isn't it? | 20:54 |
| freemangordon | yep | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | #IFDEF ? | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or actually code? | 20:54 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | i.e. would the armel binary do the same? | 20:55 |
| freemangordon | no, it tries to open the real sysfs node and falls back to "dummy" one | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so strings armel bin | grep tmp/dummy.charger ? | 20:55 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 20:56 |
| freemangordon | try it | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dafilenam? | 20:56 |
| freemangordon | "/usr/sbin/fmtxd" | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tnx | 20:56 |
| freemangordon | or "/sbin/fmtxd" | 20:56 |
| freemangordon | not sure | 20:56 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | which * ;-9 | 20:56 |
| freemangordon | no ssh open to the device | 20:57 |
| freemangordon | and it is about 3 meters away :) | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | IroN900:~# strings `which fmtxd`|grep tmp | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /tmp/dummy.vbus | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | /tmp/dummy.charger | 20:57 |
| freemangordon | see :) | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :-D | 20:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that mynokia kills me | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~listkeys nokia | 20:58 |
| infobot | Factoid search of 'nokia' by key (6): nokia ;; nokia stuff ;; nokia-sso ;; mynokia ;; nokiatune ;; nokia770. | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~mynokia | 20:58 |
| infobot | well, mynokia is a digital robbery courtesy Nokia, or http://wiki.maemo.org/PR1.2_compulsory_My_Nokia_subscription, or https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10366 | 20:58 |
| povbot | Bug 10366: MyNokia SMS sent after update without any action from the user | 20:58 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | LOL | 20:59 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: okay... knowing stuff does imply you know how non-free bits in maemo work. logicaly it can be assumes you can replace it with free software. then whey didn't I read about the free software meamo version for download? maybe because you don't know all about it? oh, but that would be like.... you cannot gurantee meamo doesn't have a lot more privacy issues. no offence. | 20:59 |
| ecc3g | clear | 20:59 |
| ecc3g | clear | 20:59 |
| * ecc3g hands self a / | 21:00 | |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: we have other means than knowing the sourcecode to check what a system does or possibly could do | 21:00 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I just can tell you I *KNOW* my N900 isn't "spying on me" the way you suppose | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | since I'd notice when it did | 21:01 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and most probably I'd meanwhile even noticed when it had the ptential to do | 21:02 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we disassembled and analyzed ~99.8% of all binaries on that device | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and I'd notice immediately when my device starts acting unusual | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | processes not expected to run | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | causing CPU load not expected to be seen | 21:03 |
| NIN101 | what about baseband etc.? | 21:03 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | causing battery drain that is hated a lot | 21:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | what could baseband do except already contacting BTS? | 21:04 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | sth it's built for and I hope it does reliably anyway | 21:04 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | spy on my internet traffic? well that can be done on BTS as well, just like anywhere else in world wide internet on any cisco router that happens to forward my data | 21:05 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | modem reporting to NSA about charging state of my battery? | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ;-P | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ok, they *can* activate the GPS on N900 and get a somewhat more precise fix than they could with mere triangulation from 3 BTS | 21:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | when I'm outdoor | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NIN101: what's "etc"? | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ooh, we have NOLO | 21:07 |
| NIN101 | DocScrutinizer05: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/30C3-SIM-Karten-Angriffe-bleiben-bedrohlich-2072666.html | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | who knows what evil daemons hide in there ;-) | 21:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NIN101: ooooooold | 21:08 |
| NIN101 | not the point. | 21:08 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and yet to get tested if N900 BB5 maybe is a clean SAT implementation that actually rises an exception of sorts on JS programs running on SIM | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or if it actually simply can't and will not do SAT at all, like Nokia admitted | 21:09 |
| ShadowJK | You're all looking in the wrong place. The agency would obvioisly modulate the powergrid frequency, to create audio and video, which when we use camera, triggers an exploit in the emmc | 21:09 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that however it pretty much completely unrelated to the phone | 21:10 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: Nobody is perfect. I mean I do not say I don't belive you have the ability and the means to do as you say you do. Do you have a scientific paper explaining you methods and more or less proof there no more privacy issues than mynokia subscribtion? So other people can check your results and stuff. .... Okay, that would mean a lot of work but today trust needs a bit more then just a "because we say so". | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | heheheharrrrhaha | 21:10 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: no, and I'm not doing that paper without payment | 21:11 |
| NIN101 | also, do you track your CPU load and processes 24/7 :-)? | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yes | 21:12 |
| NIN101 | but what about my evil kernel module? | 21:12 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: how much money do you want for doing such a paper? | 21:12 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | oh, the one pali kicked out of KP last week? | 21:13 |
| ShadowJK | heh | 21:13 |
| NIN101 | DocScrutinizer05: not "my" in particular, an attackers evil kernel module, how would you detect that? | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: lemme see.... 2 weeks == 10 man-days * 8h * 80bucks | 21:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I first instance have no evil kernel modules on my device | 21:14 |
| NIN101 | how do you know? | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and my last lsmod is prolly 2 weeks ago | 21:14 |
| NIN101 | your lsmod is not reliable if your system is infected. | 21:14 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | meh | 21:14 |
| ShadowJK | NIN101; by that metric, there is not a single device in the world that can be trusted | 21:15 |
| NIN101 | yep. | 21:15 |
| ShadowJK | Not even SD cards :-) | 21:15 |
| NIN101 | yeah, I saw that talk on the 30c3. | 21:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NIN101: so you just proved that ... you can't watch CPU operating | 21:16 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and my system ISN't infected | 21:17 |
| ShadowJK | Also Samsung patching their cards so they don't bug out and overwrite their own firmware. Imagine an attacker that knew the sequence and conditions that trigger that bug, could potentially replace the firmware with his own, and have the card modify the operating system stored on it :-) | 21:17 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: you sure that's enough? seems a bit fast to me or you are very confident you can do a paper for other people to check. | 21:17 |
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| NIN101 | " so you just proved that ... you can't watch CPU operating" Please rephrase. if you mean that you can't trust CPU load values reported by the kernel when your system is infected, then ineed, you can't. | 21:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: I'm not interested in that whole discussion, it's like little Fritz going to chocolate factory asking for a quote for 30.000 kg of nougat chocolate | 21:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | why would I waste my time doing a proper quote? | 21:19 |
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| ShadowJK | As kernel is typically only read at bootup, it'd be trivial for the compromised memory card to serve a compromised kernel at poweron, and return the original kernel later if anyone tried to read verify :D | 21:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: 7here's /dev/mem though | 21:21 |
| NIN101 | ShadowJK: :-). | 21:21 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: and how the heck did my 27 updates work? | 21:21 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: I'm saying I try to get the money for you to do contracted work doing that paper. | 21:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: if you're really interested in that, contact me on my commercial addr per email please | 21:22 |
| ShadowJK | OH, and let's not forget the led controller, it's a turing complete chip afterall, it might modulate he notification light with a datastream :s | 21:22 |
| ShadowJK | somedude238; would be more interesting in the context of Neo900 really | 21:23 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: hehe, indeed | 21:24 |
| ShadowJK | The stock Maemo5/N900 concerns will go away automatically as the modem tends to suicide eventually anyway | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | why do a security audit for a device that's fading away? | 21:24 |
| somedude238 | ShadowJK: that's also the point. I read neo900 does want to make use of meamo. first the it must be deemed safe or it's not usable. | 21:24 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | o.O | 21:25 |
| ShadowJK | somedude238; I think the majority of the closed telephony stuff is entirely incompartible anyway, and would have to be thrown out | 21:25 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: I'll contact you in the next few days about the contracted work. | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | do you have a faint idea what you mean by "safe"? | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and any idea how to accomplish that requirement? | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | honestly, I#m curious what it is you want to see getting done | 21:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | on Neo900 you can have the security audit for half the price of N900 | 21:28 |
| ShadowJK | it's not doable unless you build every chip yourself, and xray them to confirm nobody tampered with them during manufacture, etc.. But then, you're doing the design work on an insecure machine in the first place, and can't trust the design software to synthesize your design | 21:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: that#s why I ask about the level of "security" he's interested in resp talking about | 21:29 |
| ShadowJK | right | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I mean "all software from FOSS" doesn't say anything about security anyway, really | 21:29 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | not immanently | 21:30 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: my Idea of "safe" in meamo context is first and foremost there is no remote access posibility by "nokia" or other thirdparty. from there apps "leaking data to the cloud" and down to sqashing bugs that could make previous things said possible. | 21:30 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I can't do a full 100% security audit of even just the linus kernel | 21:30 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: that's feasibe :-) | 21:31 |
| NIN101 | depends. If we include "remote exploits" in "no remote access posibility for third parties", then probably not. | 21:32 |
| ShadowJK | If you take as a given that the hardware which the maemo software runs on behaves as documented | 21:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NIN101: since standard system doesn't expose any servies, there's hardly any exploit of such services for anybody to make use of | 21:33 |
| NIN101 | speaking about user space servers. | 21:34 |
| NIN101 | there also clients, and the kernel. | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you'd need to find an exploit in e.g. pop3 | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or - of course - web browser | 21:34 |
| ShadowJK | It's for sure not going to prevent you from installing and/or using random software | 21:34 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | :nod: | 21:35 |
| NIN101 | yeah, we can stretch this as far as we want. A very detailed definition of "safe" must be provided. | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | aiui it's up to me to provide that | 21:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I'll valuate what's safe and what's not safe, and that's the definition | 21:36 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | evaluate even | 21:36 |
| NIN101 | aiui he wants you do to an audit to confirm maemo is safe. In this case, he must. | 21:36 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | browser for example is NOT safe. Microsoft, netscape, firefox and opera didn't manage to define a safe browser | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so how could I? | 21:37 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | NIN101: we're not selling pink ponies. sorry | 21:37 |
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| NIN101 | whatever. | 21:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but sure, I'll be happy to answer a request "prove that any arbitrary software on maemo is safe" with a "it's not" and invoice 1 man-week for that ;-P | 21:39 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but I for sure can define what's needed to make a few different levels of security work. Like cryptfs for example. OR - for lowest level - explain why stock maemo considered free of spyware but still has week spots that open up vulnerabilities, like e.g. said browser | 21:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | weak spots even | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you could sandbox the browser | 21:42 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: isn't oviously not neccesary anymore. you just said the opposite. and meamo is not safe. thus it's not neccesary to pay you for contracted work to proof it's not safe. | 21:42 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | accepting the limitations in usability that comes with | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: aaah I knew it | 21:43 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | yeah, maemo (incl the 1600 apps in maemo-extras) definitely is NOT safe | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I know i#m talking to lil jimmy asking for 30 ons of chocolate | 21:44 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | tons* | 21:44 |
| kerio | yay chocolate :3 | 21:45 |
| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: what did you knew? first you say one thing and then the other. what do you expect? | 21:45 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: and - just FYI - the browser for example definitle will NOT make it on fremantle running on Neo900, OOTB. You have to install it yourself, as user, and we will leave no doubt about the security risk that comes with such thing | 21:46 |
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| somedude238 | DocScrutinizer05: I don't care anymore. it's like saying "it can do nothing at all but it's safe until you actually install software....." you just destroyed any credibility and trust I was willing to invest. just stop. | 21:50 |
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| ShadowJK | This applies to everything? | 21:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: sorry we have no pink ponies for you | 21:51 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and no chocolate | 21:51 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | and no OS that refuses to install carefully crafted malware, even when original user asks with stern voice, and waving with root permissions | 21:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | or did you think I could evaluate 1600 apps for their safety? | 21:53 |
| somedude238 | that all brings me back to the inital question.... With all the Privacy Issues Today, I wonder why are you still using Maemo? I mean, with the non-free bits it more or less sure that meamo does spy on you like any other mobile os. So.... how will you react to this? | 21:54 |
| ShadowJK | This was one of the huge criticisms regarding Nokia N9 / Maemo6 actually, that root wasnt root, and phone would kill itself if you tried to tweak it.. | 21:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | somedude238: please stop spreading bullshit | 21:54 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it#s more or less sure that there are no "non-free" - as of your definition - bits on maemo | 21:55 |
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| ShadowJK | Maemo 5 came before the adware age, and before people saw money in personal data, so there's much less data transfer going on by default, which makes it easier to spot if anything suspicious were to happen | 21:56 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | ShadowJK: it would be *pretty* obvious when e.g. the PVR opengl-3D driver would try to talk to internet, or do random fopen() | 21:57 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | we don't need sourcecode to know it doesn't | 21:57 |
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| ShadowJK | Ultimately to answer the question "why are you still using maemo5?", my own personal answer and opinion is that the alternatives are worse :-) | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but discussing with somedude (who luckily just left) is futile anyway | 21:59 |
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| ShadowJK | oh i have join/parts hidden | 21:59 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | (worse) obviously, for every maemo user plain obvious to see | 21:59 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | it's just like "with all the proprietary wlan card drivers, why is any of you still using linux on his PC?" | 22:01 |
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| * DocScrutinizer05 just wonders if somedude eventually will find some rogue fraudster who will offer him to prove that ACME-RANDOM-OS is actually *totally* secure | 22:06 | |
| DocScrutinizer05 | no matter what he does to that awesome OS | 22:06 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I actually hope he will, since I guess he will feel much better then, even while he's not any more protected from malware and privacy threats | 22:07 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | *sigh* | 22:08 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | apropos, sandboxing browserd is probably a nice idea | 22:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | the heck what's up? netsplits? | 22:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I wonder what it takes to run the microB instance in a chroot | 22:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | dbus should have the means to filter sufficiently finegrained to only startup/unhide the browserd instance and not allow random rogue access from browserd/microB to other services | 22:13 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | sure downloading documents is moot then | 22:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | but that's the purpose after all, no? | 22:14 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | well, you even still can download (and upload) data into/from the changeroot, and host can access the changeroot of course | 22:15 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | but the changeroot can't access the host and the services on there, like dpkg/HAM, or liblocation | 22:17 |
| zammy | good new year DocScrutinizer05 | 22:17 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | or audio | 22:17 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | zammy: same to you :-) | 22:17 |
| zammy | I wanna ask | 22:17 |
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| zammy | perl repository | 22:18 |
| zammy | I must update perl for irssi scripts | 22:18 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | mhm | 22:18 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | I have a pretty foggy idea about perl | 22:19 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and about irssi | 22:19 |
| zammy | you make it pretty even if it s not | 22:19 |
| zammy | make it | 22:19 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | you checked ~pkg ? | 22:20 |
| zammy | ... | 22:20 |
| zammy | where | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | ~pkg | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | dang, bot gone | 22:20 |
| zammy | zzzz | 22:20 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | http://maemo.org/packages/ | 22:21 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | there's a bazillion *-perl packages | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | incl: | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | perl Perl | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | perl-5.16 perl-5.16 | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | perl-base Perl-base | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | perl-modules Perl-modules | 22:22 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's about as much as I can help with perl | 22:23 |
| zammy | alright | 22:23 |
| zammy | got | 22:23 |
| zammy | but DocScrutinizer05 check out yourself | 22:25 |
| zammy | better | 22:25 |
| zammy | click on the links of perl | 22:25 |
| zammy | it's not really updated | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | hm? | 22:25 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | I hve no idea what's qualifying as "updated" | 22:25 |
| zammy | perl | 22:26 |
| zammy | it's 5.9 | 22:26 |
| zammy | .8 | 22:26 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | *shrug* | 22:26 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | toldy I have no clue of perl. Sorry | 22:27 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and particularly I have no idea what you're looking for | 22:28 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | so instead of telling me, it's prolly the better strategy to check by yourself | 22:29 |
| zammy | oh I see there are two perls | 22:31 |
| zammy | one old | 22:31 |
| zammy | and one 5.16 | 22:31 |
| zammy | such weird | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | that's what I posted above, yeah | 22:31 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | 2014-01-01 21:22:42] <DocScrutinizer05> incl: | 22:32 |
| zammy | instead of one which includes old one too | 22:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-01-01 21:22:45] <DocScrutinizer05> perl Perl | 22:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | [2014-01-01 21:22:45] <DocScrutinizer05> perl-5.16 perl-5.16 | 22:32 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | OT sidenote: when that somedude guy had been serious, he had asked "which commercial email addr?" | 22:33 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | him not doing that told me enough about him and his request | 22:35 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | evry once in a while you run into self appointed smartasses who think they can make you do some job for them, since once you did that job, they can't be forced to pay what they promised and you'd rather take a 200 instead of that 6000 before you get nothing at all. Seen this more often than I need to feel happy | 22:38 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | surprisingly that's always a request like the one we seen above, of the class "make me an accounts program please" or "evaluate that business plan and come up with alternatives" or "we need a driver for this exotic printer" or the like | 22:41 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | you always can tell they don't plan to really put down that money since they didn't even bother to think 30 min about what they actually need/want | 22:43 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | when they would think about it, just for 30 min, their question would rather sound like "this exotic printer can do stuff we find in new printers that cost ~1500bucks. Do you think it's worth trying to get a driver for this exotic critter, or should we better get a new one that comes with proper drivers?" | 22:46 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | but no, they simply assume it's for _sure_ cheaper for _them_ to ask yu to make that damn junk work and write a custom driver for it. | 22:48 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | since... you can't ask more for the job than a new printer would cost them, this is rogue and nobody dares to do such thing | 22:49 |
| DocScrutinizer05 | and after all, the new printers come hardware PLUS driver for just 1500, so how could just the driver cost more than this? | 22:50 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | happy easter! and bbl ;-D | 22:53 |
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| DocScrutinizer05 | wb infobot | 22:57 |
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